OU DPP OU Metagame Discussion Thread

[Le Don]

I will maybe release other teams in the future.

Here we go !

Some oldschool Neelix

I don't have a lot of new teams to share but the team I'm sharing here is imo more solid and consistant compared to my usual stuff. You will have here more details and theorycrafting. Double trap + wincond is one my fav archetype esp since we are not forced anymore to use Clef in every stall / balance teams if they can accelerate in mid/lategame to win with a dedicated wincond ( Zor, Quag, Gastro, Lati etc etc etc ).





I build this team at mid-season of DPP Revival. I was already out and I was questionning a lot myself to understand what happened at my ingame, my building. I felt like I became very unconsistant and also I think that my building had sometimes good ideas but the execution was poor so I ended up with flippy teams. I knew that best way to regain a little bit of confidence to convince Osgoode with some of my builds cause I consider him as the best DPP builder so it would mean a lot ( esp since he considers my builds to be bad xdd ). I built a prototype of this 6 with like Shard Phan or Turn Cele, Osgoode took it changed 2-3 things ( he kept Modest Zone !!! ) and some days later it was brought for Revival and it won. A pretty good feeling honestly.

Inspiration and improvement !

Looking at the recent fat SD Bulky Zor builds, I noticed two patterns that were working well : one with Starmie + Celebi + Magneton x Special Sponge ( Tar / Bliss / Clef ) and the other with Lati x Phan x Registeel x Scarf Tar. And while I was trying to understand why it was working I asked myself what happens if we combine Phan + Zone/Ton x Tar ? I already did this in the past in some Spikes Balance / Stall teams so why not here ? Gyara needs a spinner, a good Donphan is SR Less Donphan, MagPhan is kinda like ADV MagDol and PhanTar is a very good duo. And overall I feel like everyone complete each other in these teams.

paralysing Zapdos is the best thing that can happen to SD Zor cause that means it becomes way less annoying esp when your spacial sponge is Scarf Tar; I already talked in this thread about how strong is RT TWave Gyara rn and it is still incredible into offense and overall any team that doesn't have a strong defensive status absorber; prob one or the best momentum destroyer thx to its mixed bulk, Intimidate and TWave.

became BP > U-Turn to not get trapped by Tar so we aren't 6-0 by LoomTar ( aka 80% of the paraspam teams ); Psychic comes clutch as f vs Roserade which is a massive threat for Donphan and ofc it is perfect into Loom ( someone that lacks of this recent knowledge gets baited very easily btw cause Psychic Celebi wasn't a common thing until recently with these new teams ) and into Gengar; SR Mono-Psychic means that Starmie gets a free spin so having BP / U-Turn is very important to trap easily with Tar => SR up => more pressure on Zapdos; SpD is needed to not get OHKO by Specs Modest Draco from Lati ( 93,3% max ); Cele is also the one coming on TBolt WoW RT Rotom so you absorb WoW then you can Psychic it / Bp into Tar; if it's SBall then it's Gyara; Psychic does good damage to Rotom / Zapdos, good chip for Zor.

became Knock to annoy everything that threatens Zor ( Waters, Rotom, Zapdos, Taunt Glisc ... ) and just the team overall ( SHED SHELL Skarm, Suicune and Clefable ); Protect is VERY important here for 3 reasons : it's your only source of recovery, scouting things like LATIAS, KINGDRA, Rotom, STARMIE ... is THE thing that makes you strong against offensive teams and makes you feel safe vs breaker teams, baiting Explosion from a Rocks Meta is usually game winner; having RT Gyara means that you don't need to check BSlam Rachi with Donphan so you don't expose it to a para.

is the key to make progress vs Starmie teams, it offers speed control and a lot of stability; Ice Punch for Flygon / Gliscor and Superpower can help vs Clefable but you can use EQ instead to be stronger into Jirachi and Infernape esp since HP Elec Nape is a big threat to this team.

is incredible : its resilience and its ability at clutching lost games is impressive; it somtimes feels like it is invincible in the right team with the right support; having some speed invests is great so you outspeed other Zor so you never tie with them so you Roost first etc ( CB Zor mostly ); 56+ is to OHKO 8 HP Tar, tbh idk if it's needed but I felt like having some Atk invests makes Zor very oppressive after 1 or 2 SDs esp vs a Knocked Taunt Glisc or a paralysed physical Jirachi; SpD is the most important cause it is the " detail " that allows you to 1v1 non Heat-Wave Zapdos, non Wisp Rotom, non HP Fire Scarf Zone, CM Rachi, Special Pert and to live non STAB " weak " Fire moves ( FlameT Clef / Queen for ex ); Bug Bite is better to maximise the 1v9 potential.

Modest is the Emeral touch whose origins date back to, iirc, 2020 with his double trap + Curse Pert team. It fits perfectly here cause it does more damage to for ex Suicune, chances to OHKO SpD Skarm ( 50% ), almost guaranteed OHKO on bulkless Tran ( 87,5% ) and ofc after rocks guarenteed OHKO, still traps opposite Zone etc etc ; Overall Modest Zone hits like a truck ( it can 2HKO some frail Looms ); I personally like Explosion esp for Clef but you can do Flash Cannon I think; I know being slower than Lati / Gar / Nape is not very optimal but guys, the first and the second one are getting trapped by Tar and Nape is normally not allowed to play vs RT Gyara + Modest Zone isn't a common thing, WHO IS GOING TO EXPECT THAT UNLESS THEY KNOW THE TEAM ? No one. And btw if you don't like it just use Magneton instead but you will have to more patient before activating the SD Zor path.


Known threats and issues :

- Heat-Wave : dodge with Zor, flinch with Gyara, force damages on it somehow and if you can't do that you can forfeit. Not very common at least ... Ah and ofc offensive Zapdos ( Modest 4 Atk lead for ex ) is very uncommon but a big threat so be careful ( glad that my edit of CoCo special offense [Zap Tran Tar Cune Gon Rachi] that has been spammed in 2024 isn't anymore LOL )

- Failing the vs sequence : perma rocks up on your side, very annoying but it can still be fine depending on what they have.

- Grass Knot + HP Elec : The SoS Special ... just ff tbh unless you want to pray for a miss with Celebi; idk.

- Rocks : You are using Donphan and Scarf Tar soooo ... Hmmmmm hope that Zor can win in the end and it should be the case unless there is too much things to weaken for a SD Zor clean.

- Trapping opposite : Since you're not using triple Steel and that your second Steel is your wincond, forcing in opposite Zone is very very hard and in the end if it's HP Fire Zone it can become very hard to win the game.

- : IBeam Nido is a Donphan counter and since we can't run SpD Phan cause Def EVs are needed for Tar, opposite Phan, Hippo etc, IBeam does a lot and forces Phan out; same as Rocks Cele, hope Zor wins the game. If it's FlameT Queen it will depend of what's behind the Queen but at least Phan is pretty much free to spin on their face.

- + Thunder Ground + Ghost : horrible and kinda coinflippy MU; you need to get the spin off somehow and then win the game by trapping opp's Tran so Zor can win the game.

- : oh man XD, hope it's not HP Elec or not Lum so you can try to para it with Gyara but generally you will have to trade Zone; with Sand +2 Bug Bite into BPunch kills it but gl to put yrself into this position; I agree not having GK or Twave on Cele sucks but applying one of these solutions create massive other problems; at least it can only setup on Phan ( if Cele didn't reveal it's moveset ), it dies from Sand and HPump can miss ... Gyara takes +0 Hp Elec too ( you can do 68 in SpD for +1 Timid HP Elec but the prob is that Lum Cune is almost always Modest cause the idea of Lum is to 2HKO Clef with Pump while being able to negate a TWave from Clef so Timid doesn't really make sense with Lum ); Bulky Cune isn't very good vs our SD Zor esp if Sand is up.

- Bold CM TBolt/GK FlameT : Prob the worst thing to face with this team, it counters litt everything; if it was able to CM, try to force it out Superpower / Crunch Def drops and once done play aggressive, put yourself in a position where you can SD first with your full HP Zor ( so you survive unboosted FlameT ) so you can remove Clef with Bug Bite into BPunch; but if opp isn't scared by your Tar, you need Crunch crits / Def drops, this is the only way, sorry not sorry CM Clef users; and of course the Tar sequence doesn't work if it's GK Clef ( Superpower crit ? :skull: ).

- SpD : Gyara counters it, and, with 8 HP EVs, Zone can survive from full a 0 SpA Lava Plume in order to 2HKO the Heatran so Zor has an avenue to win the game. Sub Roar is annoying but it is what it is.

- Specially oriented Mixed : looks pretty hard on the paper but overall it just depends if SR are up on your side so Gyara can come in and take 2 Dracos from full ( roll if +SpA Gon ); same with Celebi; Phan can scout it, take a Draco from full and also knock the LO to make him useless ( prob the path you usually take if Rocks are up on your side but be careful about the consquences ); you can play aggressive with Tar cause you have IPunch / Pursuit; Locked into Trage and Celebi / Gyara just died to it => you can RK it with Tar ( Gyara takes Draco + Trage btw ).

- Mixed / DD : First one is omega annoying, at least it's prediction reliant + dies quickly from Sand and LO + you have two Scarfers that can pivot on Draco and threaten it after. DD is annoying if Gyara is chipped hard or dead; remember that you have BPunch prio and Zone that tanks one Trage and fire back with a big Modest TBolt.

- and stall overall : Gyara is normally very good into these teams and trapping Skarm makes the things easier usually; Cele / Gyara will prob get knocked but it is for the best. Para the Rachi with Zone, trap the Rotom if there is one and win with Zor; be careful about a potential CM Fire Lati that can stop Zor in his tracks if at +1.

- Taunt : Hmmmmm Sand + Rocks up on their side and not on your side are your best allies; Intimidate is useful too, Cele can 1v1 every version that is not Ice Fang and our Gyara does about 20% on Wfall so it's ok; Zone can help you if no flinch but only in extreme situation like Gyara dead; maybe Phan can knock the Leftovers in some scenarios too.

- Refresh : alas a threat to any team that relies on TWave to stop it ... if not Max Atk Zor should be able to tank one Fire Punch from full and at +2 Bug Bite should kill after some chip ( Modest Zone also helps for this case !! ).


And I think that's all ? Maybe SD Glisc is a problem but I never faced it with the team.


REPLAYS ( I wish I had my ladder replays where I 1v6ed lost games with Zor ... ) :

Fakes vs Garay Oak for Classic XI Playoffs : it seems to be the prototype that is played by Fakes here but it worked perfectly ( look at turn 30-31 so you can see the power of Modest Zone ).
Void vs Gilbert Arenas DPP Revival Round 6 Winners : the gameplan vs LUM Suicune LEAD xdd; also a good showcase of Phan x Zor 2v6ing the game; Rotom prevented the Spin many times but died to Sand + Rocks in the end.



I will release another one this week and prob do some edits to this post cause I kinda rushed it so don't hesitate to tell me if words are missing here or there etc same for the threat list.

Cheers !

EDIT : new team tomorrow or tuesday cause very poor internet since friday

 

[Reverb]

Please don't get the impression that I'm pissed (I'm not). Here's the thing: I'm 32. I played DPP when it was the current meta. I look at this metagame the same way I look at an old house: Any remodel must honor its provenance. Frankly, I never saw an issue with any changes until now, but a Sleep ban turns this into a fundamentally different game. (I should have said something earlier.)

 

[dk]

Please don't get the impression that I'm pissed (I'm not). Here's the thing: I'm 32. I played DPP when it was the current meta. I look at this metagame the same way I look at an old house: Any remodel must honor its provenance. Frankly, I never saw an issue with any changes until now, but a Sleep ban turns this into a fundamentally different game. (I should have said something earlier.)

whats the argument here? do we just politely admire old metagames with their stupid shit respectfully left untouched in observation of some kind of religious obligation to do so? no shit it's different---it's a lot more fun. seriously, go play it. i havent had this much fun with singles in a long time.

there's enough variance in the game with secondary move effects, damage rolls, crits (esp x2 ones which are bullshit), and misses---and we can't neatly pluck these things out. if you would like to take some kind of hardline conservative stance on the glory of RNG to appease your pagan god of gambling, i'm sure there's plenty of other venues that would be very receptive to your enthusiasm for randomness. i hear china is becoming a big player in the gacha game market these days.

 

[mackie]

I don't really have a stance on sleep being banned - I always viewed the status as just part of the game. From my perspective there were ways to even take advantage of Breloom's Spore. The most prominent example being SubSplit LO Gengar. He can get a free sub on Loom Spores and then obliterate with Shadow Ball, then still have a sub intact to hopefully take someone else out. Gengar is so good imo since he beats many common OU mons like Loom, Clef, Nape, Zone, Tran, Tar, Gliscor, Empoleon, Rotom, Celebi, slower Latias, etc. Sub is good on Gengar because it prevents him from being revenge killed, as well as giving him two shots at using Shadow Ball (so like Gyarados/Zap and Jirachi/Zong/Gross are essentially weak to it) or Focus Blast which helps mitigate misses.

Of course for more inexperienced players they can easily be ran over by like a SubPunch Loom once it gets momentum, but more skilled players wont let that happen so easily. Taking out Sleep helps these more inexperienced players, but for experienced players I don't think they will notice Sleep being banned too much - it will just feel like one less thing to worry about.

Looking through my teams I've actually barely even used Loom at all.

 

[Le Don]

" I will release another one this week " --- My net is stable for now so here we go again :

More oldschool Neelix

This team is probably not the best of all time but it has great ideas and a clear gameplan vs what I wanted to target. Oh and I took this 6 from a DPPPL Christos replay so I'm not sure of who's the original owner of this 6 ( don't look at the nick of the team, this is a funny private joke from the french DPP WCup serv ). A bit of ADV vibes as well no ? Imagine with Bliss > Clef and Pert > Queen ... yeah, anyways :





This one has a long but cool story : it was made in late September for OmBrArch, he had to play vs Elodin for Classic POs. I knew Rui was prob going to give Elodin a team so based on what I saw during DPP Revival, I tried to look for clear weakness. I found some but it wasn't convincing me ( Sub Roost Modest Zap, Double stallbreakers paraspam with some techs like HBell Celebi ) and finally a perfect set came to my mind. Do you remember what is worst thing to face for the team above ? CM TBolt FlameT Clef. It looked absolutly insane into what I wanted to target. So let me recap the global idea : be strong into the top meta teams that have been played in DPP Revival = Nidoqueen +++ , CM TF Clef ++++++++, Starmie + Specs Lati counterplay, abuse of the high usage of physical attackers, abuse of the high usage of Donphan, being careful of Registeel, SD Zor and Sub CM IHead Rachi. Ok let's go into it :


lead looked good into them, a strong mon into offensive teams. It is faster than Ada Gyara, should be faster than Modest Cune that usually run 263 in Speed and faster than Sash Loom lead and iirc it was the only Loom set that was used in the scout. My only mistake was to consider Zapdos as our Dragonite counterplay and using HP Ice > Sub so outspeeding Sash Loom is yeah kinda useless ... But I suppose now that Spore is banned Zapdos can be a lot of things ( Heat-Wave to OHKO a potential +2/4 SD Loom ) ? And maybe we can consider SpD Zap too but not sure. I wanted Heat-Wave for Metagross, Breloom, Roserade and Bronzong lead.

's set is very weird ikik but don't leave I beg you, listen to me ! The problem I have with the standard SpD Tar set is that you can never really punish Starmie ( bad esp since this Tar set is mostly used in hazards stack comps ), Latias dropping Dracos on your face, same for Rotom etc AND Donphan litt counters you and I couldn't consider this. So Pursuit + IBeam was my first choice and I still think it's fine but with this set it's hard to remove Defensive Lati from the game to activate CM Clefable + DD Gyara / Tar had a free setup on my face ... So ... why not Toxic after all ? It puts on a timer Ground ( Phan ), DDers and most importantly Latias : if offensive, they will switch out ( cause standard SpD Tar has SR Crunch EQ Tect ) so they get Suited => no more free Dracos and if Defensive usually they switch out but after you revealed SR Pursuit and Tect, they will surely stay on you. Oh and dw CM Clef will force her on the field esp if it's CM Lati. 8 EVs in Atk are needed to do 75% minimum to 252 40 216+ Starmie ... Starmie stays on your face ? Tect to regen, Toxic to force it out. Easy. Overall, a good special glue that can win against Phan / Mie and a good Lati lure to activate the CM Clefable i.e. our wincond.

is nothing special : put TSpikes up to pressure everything you need to, IBeam is need for Phan / Dragonite. Yeah, Nidoqueen. Rest > Protect cans urely improve the Clef + Rachi MU but I never did this on this teamso idk the consequences of losing Tect here ( ty Excal for the suggestion )

is mostly here to get Spikes up and offer Breloom / DDers ( Physical attackers ) counterplay, Zapdos wasn't enough esp vs DD Tar. I'm still searching for the best 4th slot. It was Steel Wing to hit DD Tar but it became Drill Peck now that Spore is gone. Ig Counter can also work. Once Starmie / Phan has been removed / Toxiced then Skarm is free to stack Spikes which is good ! And in the teams that had a Mag / Ton, Skarm wasn't needed to win so I was fine with this. Yeah stacking hazards for CM Clef is good, nothing new.

Bold Reflect acts as a pseudo Reflect Latias that can Spin to give you longevity so you don't lose vs basic stall teams and to keep Zapdos safe vs SR. It helps vs Tar, Waters, Jirachi, Scizor, Gliscor etc etc and since it's my only water resist I wanted a solid one. For ex, Boom from Max Atk Ada Meta does 94% max so it's a roll in your favor with Sand, Ada Flygon does 43,2 max with U-Turn ... btw Tran doesn't kill you with Boom cause you're Bold Starmie ( test it yourself so you can understand why I'm addicted to it since DPP Revival ). Being Bold gives you a lot of longevity, you're much safer into many MUs that are, with fast def Mie, imo volatile.

having Flamethrower makes you so much stronger into Jirachi ( Sub CM IH esp ) and SD Scizor, both have high usages in the scout. And overall as I explain earlier, it looked incredibly good, it was able to 6-0 many teams and nothing could stop it. ZapMie paraspam usages was very low ( or even 0 so no SD Rhyp / CB Tar things ) and Loom's usages were also low as f ( only Sash iirc ) so I knew this set could do something big. You're not favored to win a CM Clef war I agree but I wasn't expecting this from Elodin; remember that team was built for a particular opp and to cover everything that can exist ( even it's better to do so I agree ! ).


No threatlist cause tbh didn't really test the team and I had a good feeling at what OmB was going to face. Also as I said this team wasn't mean to be reused a lot in the future, just a pocketpick / counterteam. But yeah, team is slow as f so Superrachi can give you a hard time, SD Gliscor as well, Infernape too ( thankfully we have TSpikes for this ), Empoleon / Kingdra are annoying as f in earlygame etc and overall I feel the team depends if you can get TSpikes up quickly and maintain them. Oh yeah Excal mentionned me saying that this team is 6-0 by Clef XD ( 2 Clef in the scout so it was safe ).


REPLAYS :

A funny thing happened during DPP World Cup : BD had to face SalvatoreSesso ( Belgium ) who is known to steal teams from many successful players notably in DPP Revival and unironically, the prep vs him and Elodin was pretty much the same LOL. And since I needed guinea pigs for my team, this was the perfect occasion !

BD vs SalvatoreSesso for Week 2 of DPP World Cup : tbh this wasn't what we expected the most but the MU was very good, Rotom was useless into Queen + Tar so Starmie had a free spin. Tar set worked in the end, Lati got trapped and couldn't win. Prep was perfect in the end so it gave me confidence into the team. ( also after the game BD said somthing like " don't make me play a team like this again, the tar is set is awful ". ok so, hum hum, firstly me, Mustounet and Emeral did the prep for his lazy ass, secondly Tar plays weren't optimal and thirdly RATIO RATIO RATIO ).

OmBrArch vs Elodin for Classic XI Playoffs : I'm so mad at me for this turn 1 start, if Zap was sub it could have been a prob a free win. Rest is ... yeah, crits and flinches everywhere, poor game tbh not even malding, just alas this is the game we play ( the worst one was on Starmie ). But it's a 100% my bad for turn 1 for sure. We learn, details like this one makes the diff esp in very high level games where everything counts and here I missed the target.


I really really reeeeeeeaaaaaaaaally want to explain why you should listen to Neelix why I'm in love with Bold Starmie but I'm tired and again test it yourself to understand why, you will also fall in love with it trust me. Bold Trick Flame Orb is very good as well : I've spammed an edit of a PDC 6 ( Mie Tar Glisc Rachi Lati Loom ) with this Mie set cause it countains SpD Glisc + Scarf Tar my fav core ever ( The good old days were I could use my edit of the BKC fight spam with this SpD SR U-Turn Gliscor + Scarf Tar + NapeLoom ... pensive. ).

Oh and btw take this ( it's the 6 that had HBell Celebi ) so now you no excuse to not test Bold Mie yourself ! And as always, tell me if words are missing here and there, I will do edits blabla ...



This was the last team I wanted to share you so I'm out, peace !