Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Dahness]

As a gen 9 and gen 6 OU player that touches Nat Dex sometimes despite being really bad at it, I feel like regular Ttar is better at all of those things because it has item choice. Idk if Mega Ttar is still good as a dd sweeper but if it isn't as good as other dd sweepers that would probably explain why people say it is bad. And to be fair while knock off is a good buff idk if it is big enough to save Mega Ttar.

why are u giving ur opinion on a tier that you are aware you don't play often

 

[UltraSword]

why are u giving ur opinion on a tier that you are aware you don't play often

Because I felt like sharing my opinion? I know how Mega Ttar works in gen 6 and because of that I can figure out how it works in Nat Dex. I was just explaining why I think Mega Ttar might be bad in this tier based on what I know from how both Ttar and Mega Ttar work in gen 6 and 9 (well Mega Ttar isn't in gen 9 but that isn't my point).

 

[Dahness]

Because I felt like sharing my opinion? I know how Mega Ttar works in gen 6 and because of that I can figure out how it works in Nat Dex. I was just explaining why I think Mega Ttar might be bad in this tier based on what I know from how both Ttar and Mega Ttar work in gen 6 and 9 (well Mega Ttar isn't in gen 9 but that isn't my point).

Two whole different tiers. Mega Ttar lacked Knock Off in gen 6, and was more of a Dragon Dance sweeper iirc. In gen 9, its role is entierely different. U gotta be at least a tad bit knowledgeable about something to be able to give a competent opinion on it

 

[Malanaki]

As a gen 9 and gen 6 OU player that touches Nat Dex sometimes despite being really bad at it, I feel like regular Ttar is better at all of those things because it has item choice.

As a NatDexOU main, let me tell you howmuch better Mttar is than regular Ttar: a 20% buff to ATK DEF SPDEF and a 10 speed increase is in overall stats (meaning you can spend less EVs to hit 200speed for example and put them in HP or Spdef); Not to mention the weather war winning by evolving and setting sand after charizard y, or on a wrong lead vs pelipper/torkoal. All of this isn't outclassed by putting an AV or a choiced item on regular ttar.

 

[UltraSword]

Two whole different tiers. Mega Ttar lacked Knock Off in gen 6, and was more of a Dragon Dance sweeper iirc. In gen 9, its role is entierely different. U gotta be at least a tad bit knowledgeable about something to be able to give a competent opinion on it

Well listen I can accept if I am wrong about something. I just felt my knowledge would help me understand what might make Mega Ttar not as good in this tier. But if what you say is true then I guess fair enough

 

[Ch0ppas]

Mtar isn't a bad mon but I certainly do not think its great by any means either. When the things you want to pursuit trap are not guaranteed traps, your role of a pursuit trapper becomes flimsy. Think ghold, bro, gking all of which are targets you'd want to pursuit. Ghold can MIR/Fblast and KO you, gking turns to a 50/50 where if you pursuit they can chilly and gain momentum on you while removing sand, and bro could be colbur bpress. Given these are specific situations but all valid and common sets that you could run into. Being weak to hazards also chips away at its usefulness throughout the game. Additionally with zama usage being crazy high rn, it doesnt help the case for mtar.

A shining point to mtar is its role as a disruptor to certain structures. Sand chip on mons to negate lefties, break tera shell/multi-scale, spam click knock, reset weather vs sun and rain, and destroying the contact birds are all valuable traits to have. I think its rank in the vr (B) is a good enough representation to how it fits into the current meta

Also mtar is miles better than reg

 

[Medasus]

Was reading through this thread and felt like throwing my hat in the ring since I've not posted here in a while!



Although Mtar has obviously seen better days in natdex and just in general, I still hesitate to call it outright bad and say its niche flat out isn't at all important in the tier right now. Mtar is able to pressure Flying-types like Zap, Molt and the albeit slightly of the boil Yard, well, while also threatening Stealth Rock and most importantly Knock Off and Pursuit allowing it to threaten staples such as Gholdengo, Gking and Mtios. While not an answer to any of these bar Gking by any means, it definitely has positive traits into them offensively. When paired with teammates such as Zapdos, Corviknight, Iron Treads and Gking in teams like these it can be utilised to force pressure on defensive cores with its combination of Stealth Rock and Knock Off, as well as trapping important pieces via Pursuit. Although its showings in NDCL have been pretty paltry, winning only 3 of 7 appearances in the first 4 weeks, managing to get used 7 times surely means theres something worth using there.



To the rest of what slopcat said, I pretty much agree, Kart is fundamentally outclassed at nearly everything it tries to do, and even when it does hold some form of niche it's extremely limited. Same applies for Water Absorb Clodsire which pops up on random ladder teams which is just an attempt at trying to compress loads of roles into 1 subpar mon to try and compensate for bad building.

On the flipside I do also agree that stuff like Hatt and Offtran can be looked into more than they are currently, especially Hatt.



CM Hatt seems really nice right now, even despite Gholdengos huge presence, being able to answer things and apply pressure to mons like Zama and the plethora of Dragons in the tier. Even without turns to setup Calm Mind, Hatt can apply great pressure through Psychic Noise and Mystical Fire, which a large portion of the tier struggles to switch in against. Not only this but Hatt also has great variety when it comes to being slotted. Support sets can be very helpful support on some Offense builds, notably Weather Builds such as Sun, where it is used as a way to deny hazards, gain momentum and cripple offensive threats with Nuzzle. The more widely spread Calm Mind sets can fit as a wincon on many structures, BO, Offense, Screens HO, you name it, putting in work as a wincon on most. My HO pilled self has loved to use it on Zama screens, where between Leftovers, Draining Kiss and Calm Mind it can easily find setup opportunities and break through common defensive cores using Zap, Glic, Pex, Ferro and the like.



Offtran also seems to be useful in a Ghold pilled metagame, with Grass Z being the main option giving it a way to nuke Mola and Bro, although sets using HP Ice and potentially even Taunt seem nice to nuke threats such as Gliscor, Lando T and prevent pivots such as Gking from pivoting out and Pex from recovering. Although extremely situational, Rock-type moves such as Power Gem can also be used for foes such as Yard, Molt and Volc, although dropping one of the more traditional slots like EP probably isn't worth it most of the time.

Closing thoughts are that I really like the spot the metas in right now and am having a lot of fun playing and building it, sorry if any of this came across as ramble I was kinda js letting my conscience stream out lol

 

[papillon heart]

As a gen 9 and gen 6 OU player that touches Nat Dex sometimes despite being really bad at it, I feel like regular Ttar is better at all of those things because it has item choice. Idk if Mega Ttar is still good as a dd sweeper but if it isn't as good as other dd sweepers that would probably explain why people say it is bad. And to be fair while knock off is a good buff idk if it is big enough to save Mega Ttar.

The reason Mega is vastly preferred over base is that you get the benefits of similar sets and items without dealing with the drawbacks, similar to Latios. The jump in bulk also makes it a better trade machine (try Jolly with enough speed to deal with Zapdos on offense, lowkey decent). Yes, Banded hits harder but it isn't that much of a difference in practice to deal with the choice lock.

View attachment 806422

honestly this is gonna be more unstructured than my ""usual"" rantposts but i kinda wanted to talk about a couple of phenomena we're seeing in nd specfically regarding some of the best (or at least extremely viable and consistent) mons in the tier.

it's no secret to anyone that nd ladder is shit. like eye-gougingly awful and incredibly easy to get randomly matchup fished by z hypno xurkitree or random excadrill (or rain, which on ladder is so prevalent of a fish that it's genuinely a viable archetype). but there's a really interesting dissonance that comes with discussions of viability or assessments of strength especially when it comes to very strong OU mons, especially regarding the higher level tours crowd and the usual ladder crowd. We can even see this in usage- latios and cinderace are almost never used on ladder while genuine pigslop like rillaboom gets more usage, whereas in tours these two are staples of the metagame and it would be absurd to think that they are undeserving of ou status. in every gen there's going to be ladder demon mons that are much weaker in tours and vice versa, but i think the prevalence of this archetype in natdex is really fascinating. Like we've had a comical amount of these examples-

is beyond washed but remained in ou for fucking everrrrr despite every person you ask universally agreeing that this thing is just worse than waterpon in every available metric. and before anyone responds to this post with "oh kart isnt great but it can hold z and scarf and xyzabc123qwertyuiop!!!!" i need you to understand that just because a mon CAN do something does not mean that niche is valuable. for the rest of the mons on this list that i describe as terrible please understand im not really citing controversial examples here. these mons are pretty objectively bad into most teams either because they are directly outclassed (kart or clod) or their niche is not very valuable (rillaboom type guys)

but this isn't exactly a shocking reveal to anyone who engages with nd at a higher level. everyone knows that some mons that are ranked ou are pretty horrifically awful (or have been in the past). what i really want to talk about is the relationship some people have with guys like hatterene and heatran, that being the syndrome of "this mon is good but never ever ever ask me to bring it to a tour". granted this comes with the caveat that these guys do see semi-regular usage, but I think people have kind of a mental block with hatt especially. its gotten kind of relegated to the sun or screens pigslop hazards denier but i just find that so intersting especially when shit like cm and rh on more standard teams is like.. still really good and strong. I think as people realize that is an extremely potent ho threat and that is the best ground in the tier, we should see more hatt on these more like standard squads. I used one vs taka in this cl to pretty great effect and it kind of came to me how we see very little of this kind of deadzone archetype of mons or sets that are really strong but are usually passed over for various reasons.

to not belabor my point any harder, I think there are some of these deadzone guys that are really fucking strong but just do not see use for one reason or another. besides hatt, stuff like offensive heatran and my beloved specs rbolt are really unseen right now and it makes me wonder why this is. obviously some of it is just aversion to experimentation or preference in terms of style, but I think these types of staple genres of mon are less seen then they maybe should be. like to sort of loop around to a past point, specs raging bolt is unseen but i feel like specs or band guys are generally not seen very much despite how useful they can be and often are. band shifu specs lele specs rbolt are all really strong breakers and it feels like there is some element that stops people from using them as much as they maybe should be. i think the biggest reason for this is probably z moves, but idk it feels like that shouldnt wholly shove them out of a niche. anyways big tldr of this yapsesh it's an interesting quirk of the tier that so many players understand the actual viability of a mon but for one reason or another it sees more or less usage than it really deserves, and even when you pit tour players against ladder players as ""true meta understanders" (which is on the whole true) we still see stuff get put in a sort of cognitive blindspot and not interacted with meaningfully

anyways i think the metagame has a couple more weird quirks like this that i'll probably discuss later (including my beloved glowking treads zap) but this is kind of just a germinating thought i've been having.

also @noobs go do nd tutoring and if u feel qualified to be a tutor go apply!!!! ts mons shit isn't fkin rocket science and i think demystifying some of it really helps the tour scene grow​

Hatterene is for sure the most "underused mon for how good it is" pick rn, the usual Hat/AV Torn/Kyurem/elephant yawn builds of SV OU also work well on NatDex. Stuff like Future Sight is also fun to play around along side Urshifu or Zama. M-Scizor is also fucking cracked as long as you don't match against bird users (sinners).

 

[Moyashi]

Something like random Z-move Mew, or Power Gem Heatran, or even Xurk probably has some quality at a higher level that might make them at least worth taking a look at. NP Mew for example, might be annoying for that "standard " (idk if this is the case anymore) Ferro Lando-T Pex core because it outspeed everything in that core and has annoying super effective moves for most of the mons there.

I think the thing is that a lot of these examples just aren’t as broadly effective as other options and will come with consistency issues. Like sure Power Gem Heatran may help with ZardY or Volcarona but you can also just answer them with other choices that have more generally useful applications beyond that specific situation. I don’t think people are necessarily dismissing options so much as they are seeing them and wondering “okay but why not use a better option to perform this role”. There probably are some specific builds those examples are decently useful on but I’d still wonder how much consistency you’d get with that.

 

[omar]

Hey, its been a very long while since I've last made a post on this thread lol. Unfortunately, we missed out on playoffs which sucks but it is what it is. I've built an absolute truckload of teams across the past months mainly for my ous alongside seth and helping Kayzn a couple of times. Might do a dump eventually since im p proud of a lot of these teams. Overall I've quite enjoyed building altho it can get challenging and quite annoying at times, retirement has treated my mental well but I'll probably still stay away from playing tours for the rest of the year.

First of all, my personal vr. This would've been completely different a few months ago and its cool to see the tier change so much even with no tiering action.

Explanations

Tiers are ordered from B and above.

Top 10

1- /: I think these two pokemon are better than all the rest by a sizeable margin, the only third mon they are somewhat relative to is Alomomola but I believe that is a clear third best mon. I change my opinion quite often on which of these is the actual top 1, atm I'm leaning towards zama but that could change very easily.

Gholdengo is up here because nothing warps the tier around it like it does. The set variety on this pokemon is insane, it can viably hold half a dozen items across three main "groups" of sets, offensive plot, defensive and scarf, although it's not the hardest thing in the world to predict the set at preview. The answers to each set aren't too different, for offensive sets you just need a strong supereffective attacker, like a volcarona, samurott, great tusk, lopunny, etc. For defensive sets you mainly need a twave absorber, which is just any ground bar great tusk, ragning bolt or zapdos, or something like a kingambit that doesnt really mind getting thunder waved much. More specialized sets such as choice scarf or shuca berry generally get checked naturally by the other answers, you just need to be aware of the possibility of your gliscor getting tricked or your great tusk getting traded out after ghold eats a headlong rush. Even with how much the tier is centered around gholdengo, it will get some value in every single game, be it checking your zamazenta or blowing up your landorus-t with corkscrew crash

Zamazenta's essential role is being the very best speed control option in a tier heavily lacking them. Options such as mega lopunny and choice scarf urshifu have heavily fallen out of favor the past few months due to the near omnipresence of moltres and zapdos to punish their spamming of contact moves and rocky helmet being as prevelent as ever. Zamazenta does still have this issue to an extent but uses stone edge to avoid contact while still threatening these birds and can choose to use boots to mitigate being worn down over time, althought it opts to use different items a bit more often nowadays, such as fightinium z, life orb, darkinium z and a personal favorite of mine, assault vest. The power boosting items give it that extra little boost it needs to become a real threat in the early game. Av lets it 1v1 stuff like tornadus, scarf lele, diancie, latios, and be a better check to kyurem and volcarona. Other competition for speed control is limited by having to use choice scarf, such as tapu lele and gholdengo, or are reliant on booster energy such as iron valiant and iron moth, who are also quite subpar pokemon. Delvng into the niche territory there are options such as meowscarada, blacephalon, and kartana which do bring some unique value but have very significant drawbacks which prevent them from being truly good.

3- : This is by far the most uninteractive pokemon in the tier and requires next to no skill to wield to very high effectiveness. This pokemon doesn't really check anything in particular other than assault vest sets checking gholdengo and the increasingly important fire types, its just a very good blanket check to most attackers that has to be careful of certain pokemon like ogerpon-w, ferrothorn and most substitue users that can punish its passivity. Selecting proper partners that can check these pokemon can allow alomomola to simply spam flip turn all game and get unlimited pivots to any breaker and never dying.

4- : The main reason this thing is ranked so high is fire types. So many balances need to compress a fire and water resist into one slot and dragonite is by far the best option, other options such as raging bolt and kyurem don't have the longevity and excelent defensive profile that dragonite boasts. It is a gigantic momentum sink and dragon dance variants can't afford to run an adamant nature on balance which makes it a suboptimal setup sweeper, but it simply has 0 real dragon type competition and the demand for them makes it extremely good by default. Bulky dragon tail variants are quite a solid option on the proper hazard stack teams that I believe is quite heavily underexpored, allowing dragonite to invest significantly more into its bulk alongside an adamant nature while not losing much due to it already being a relatively weak dragon dance sweeper.

Where dragonite really thrives as more than just a pseudo defensive piece piece is on offense teams. It can afford to run more agressive sets backed by excelent removal options such as diancie, hatterene, iron treads and terapagos, with items such as loaded dice and dragonium z to become a truly terrifying setup sweeper that doesn't rely on roost, opening the door for it to utilize its vast movepool, featuring options such as outrage and loaded dice, bolstered by the aforementioned items, Flyinium Z boosted fly, stone edge, encore, fire punch and substitute, most of which are not usually seen on balance teams.

5- : Still the best setup sweeper in the tier, not much to say. Knock off is a broken item, supreme overlord is a broken ability and kingambit has the bulk and power to wield both of these traits alongside swords dance and sucker punch to become the perfect endgame sweeper while having a significant amount of utility in the early and midgame thanks to its defensive profile bolstered by leftovers.

6- : Static is an extremely broken ability that allows this pokemon with average physical bulk check almost every single physical attacaker in the tier. Its just perfectly bulky enough to be a solid ogerpon answer provided it doesn't get crit, and in exchange for all this just good enough bulk it gets a powerful hurricane that can dissuade most ground types from attempting to block its volt switch even while uninvested, allowing for very easy pivoting into threats such as samurott or specs tapu lele

7- : Very very hard to switch into unless you are using mola, appreciates gliscor not being quite as amazing as it once was since its a p good switchin. Has a quite nice defensive profile that checks volcarona and yard once if played properly and clicks buttons very freely.

8- : Spikes toxtect is still good, I'm a big fan of sd and defog sets asw. Not much has rlly changed with this mon other than it becomming slightly worse

9- : Ngl half the reason I'm making this post is so I can talk about this mon. Dragonium Z is the best rocker in the tier, will get at least rocks or a kill, often gets both and more if properly played. The popularization of subscale + loaded dice is awesome, you get to fodderize alo, pex and fish hurricane misses on zapdos which just gives it so many more setup opportunities. I'm a huge fan of helmet chomp, you get rocks and spikes and dragon tail everything around, and get to be a one or two time answer to every physical attacker, even stuff like weavile you get to force a trade against. Spdef is still p good, not huge on a dragon that can't check volcarona but it def has a very good niche.

10- :Scarf is scarf and does the same thing it has done since sm. I'm moreso big on cm and aoa sets, again will talk about av (i love this item) which gives it that little extra bulk to trade vs almost every special attacker and is not choiced which a lot of players can wrongly assume.

Other

I was meaning to do every mon above b but i just ran out of shit to say for half of them and decided to write about a handful of pokemon I find intresting:

: wow this thing's rise has been meteoric. This thing is ultimate role compression, rocks, spin, steel, ghold check and even potentially knock all in 1 slot, I've found myself spamming this pokemon a shitload since it just does sooooo much, and its quite a decent spinner aswell, only really losing to ferro short term.

: I'm very high on this mon, obviously hates the fact that everyone knows exactly what it will do but doesn't change the fact that one misplay can very easily and very quickly snowball into this thing winning the game on the spot. Has a very very unique defensive profile and is just fast enough to abuse all of its tools to perfection, with a decent item variety to boot.

/: both face competition from zamazenta and are victims of zapdos and moltres' popularity and have fallen waaaay out of favor.

I've been experimenting with this thing recently and I'm a huge fan. Punishes teams overly reliant on iron treads or great tusk a lot while also being an excelent check to ogerpon, urshifu and zamazenta, and being a serviceable calm mind sweeper in the endgame, especially if using ghostium z sets.

(stall): I think stall is in a quite decent spot right now, can fish out a solid amount of teams that just cannot break it and has a solid amount of variety.

(rain): this archetype doesn't have quite as much variety as others, I don't really see any reason to ever drop the 4 pokemon pictured above, manaphy's ease at breaking balance/fat in particular and exploiting the reliance of many teams on dragonite as their water resist makes it a particularly powerful pokemon in rain.

Onto some ubers I've seen discussed (and ofc zamazenta-c)
(keep in mind I'm expressing my individual opinion as a player, not as a part of the council or as nd leader)


I truly believe this mon is kinda bad. Having no recovery outside of rest is way too huge of a limiting factor. No balances should be struggling to deal with this very much, but thats largely irrelevant given its job is to farm offensive teams. For all the insane calcs there are, they won't be very relevant given it will be taking spikes and stealth rocks and most likely rocky helmet against almost every single offense build, and all that chip damage will stick around for the entire game. Ontop of this, most offenses will be very heavily prepper to beat fighting types, either pecharunt or defensive gholdedngo + another fighting resist given base zamazenta is such a gigantic issue for these teams already (and is the best pokemon in the tier). Ohkoing clefable and hatterene is also largely irrelevant given they will never be used as standalone fighting resists, since they just lose to the standard aoa heavy slam zamazenta. The only teams that will struggle with this are teams that are already shaky against fighting types, which should not be the case given zamazenta is still the best pokemon in the tier.


Wow this thing is very broken. Nothing can feasably deny it from getting a +3 attack from zsplash into a free agility, keeping in mind this thing has great coverage including flare blitz, knock off, psychic fangs and earthquake alongside clear body so not even intimidate can slow it down. I cant really picture how ndou could ever handle this thing.


I'm kinda 50/50 on this thing. The only real problematic sets would be nasty plot fightinium z, although it does have to deal with zamazenta being the best mon around and used on a significant portion of teams, ontop of stuff like ting-lu and scarf urshifu/lele to deny it from fully sweeping. I'd lean slightly towards this being broken but would still be intrested in seeing it in action

 

[deviously]

Zama-crown is lite

 

[crimsonbacon38]

I’m kind of out of the loop with nat dex, when did zama crowned get unbanned?

 

[Toxic Ariados]

I’m kind of out of the loop with nat dex, when did zama crowned get unbanned?

Just today.

Wow this thing is very broken. Nothing can feasably deny it from getting a +3 attack from zsplash into a free agility, keeping in mind this thing has great coverage including flare blitz, knock off, psychic fangs and earthquake alongside clear body so not even intimidate can slow it down. I cant really picture how ndou could ever handle this thing.

Yeah it's ironic how Splash is the move that breaks Solgaleo, while it was cool to see it in that one SV OU ladder, I think it would be too overwhelming for National Dex due to Z Moves.

Anyways, this guy is getting tested! I do think he has some pretty good potential with sets like Roar and Rest. STAB Heavy Slam is a pretty nasty buff to it, and while it does lose speed it gains a good amount of bulk to compensate. Being immune to Toxic and the ability to stave off Moonblasts is also pretty significant. I wonder what people will think on this guy, I do think it might be too much but I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[TBE]

Recent news excited me and since I completed my suspect requirement already, it makes me one of the most qualified people in the community to talk about it. Seriously though I wanted to talk about how I see the tier shaping in a Zamazenta-Crown meta. This post consists of predicts for the future of the meta, the biggest winners/losers and other signigicant changes I observed. Note: Some of the earlier sections apply to points unsaid in other parts of the post but I didn't want to repeat so much. And I refer to Zamazenta-Hero as "Zamazenta" but in some instances where I compare the two I refer to both together as that as well. Enjoy!

The presence of Zamazenta-Crowned notably encourages builders to utilize different Pokemon to adapt to this tiers newest (and biggest?) threat. Something also worth mentioning is the relevance of Rocky Helmet. I think it is way better now and one of the best ways to keep Zamazenta-Crowned in check. Spikes and the need for consistent Rapid Spinners on these teams are worth noting.

Zamazenta-Hero
Health: 92
Attack: 120
Defense: 115
Special Attack: 80
Special Defense: 115
Speed: 138

Zamazenta-Crowned
Health: 92
Attack: 120
Defense: 140
Special Attack: 80
Special Attack: 140
Speed: 128


Zamazenta This is the most obvious comparison as they are literally altered forms of the same Pokemon and effectively aim to do the same thing in-game (specifically IDBP). I want to emphasize in case there are any doubts if Zamazenta will still be good, I believe it will for the following reasons. Most of this stems from the fact it is 10 speed points faster and it is not item locked... The screens set still stands out, it's still the best speed control in the tier and because these two are so similar they share a lot of the same checks but Zamazenta is better equipped to pressure or even lure and KO those checks (attack boosting items like Z/Choice Band/LO etc). And of course they will hurt each others usage a bit, even if you wanted to run them on the same team it is banned by species clause. Zamazenta-Crowned does do one thing better than it's naked form. IDBP obviously! I think the damage is extremely nuts and the tankines obviously stands out but I haven't done the calcs to prove it yet. What I like is that Alomomola cannot rely on offensive partners as much as before to revenge KO Zamazenta-Crown. Neutral to Flying, Psychic, Fairy and can outspeed Torandus-Therian, Mega-Latios and Mega-Diancie! Someone in NDOU room mentioned IDBP Zamazenta because it can hold Leftovers and 1v1 IDBP Zamazenta-Crowned although I'm not sure how much I like that for ladder..

Mega-Tyranitar and Kingambit I think both will become much better with the rise in Ghost types like Pecharunt and Gholdengo (more-so Kingambit applied to Ghost type argument), while possibly seeing much less Alomomola spammed is good for Tyranitar-Mega. Mostly because I believe there will be more demand for immediate answers in less slots and Alomomola relied on teammates for checking IDBP Zamazenta while successfully scouting 4A. Tyranitar-Mega which I have been running Earthquake and dropping Stone-Edge, honestly Knock Off is a great mid ground and annoys the birds even when they know your set but I digress.. The reason for Earthquake is to more comfortably land KOs on Toxapex after Knock Off and threaten Pokemon like Kingambit, Raging Bolt and Iron Treads without sacrificing Stealth Rocks, Pursuit or Knock Off. Anyways in addition to lower Alomomola usage and more in Ghost types (clearly not mutually exclusive), I see Pursuit being valued much more. Threatening Raging Bolt, Slowbro and Slowking-Galar makes me believe that lures like physically defensive Slowking-Galar will become more common, BP with Colbur on Slowbro or maybe even Mega-Slowbro to 1v1 Pursuit trappers while checking Zamazenta-Crowned late game. Kingambit I think SD will still be good, as Low Kick hits Zamazenta-Crowned very hard and without recovery you're playing a risky game. That said, Iron Head on those sets does not seem very good now. In addition to SD + Low Kick, I could see Pursuit replacing Low Kick on teams that are fixated on a specific gameplan to win with Zamazenta-Crowned or something that else that benefits. Choice Band and Assault Vest picking up as well because I beleive Pursuits value will rise.

Weavile I don't really want to talk about Weavile but I have mixed feelings on that mon atm.

Zapdos I don't think Hurricane should be used on this Pokemon in a Zamazenta-Crowned metagame. Honestly I hated it before relying on this move to beat Ogerpon-Wellspring, often tempting me to click Volt-Switch instead so I think Heat Wave will be a much better option as it reliable hits Zamazenta-Crowned harder and Gholdengo too, so yea in my opinion you're better off teching Thunder Wave or Toxic or something else entirely for Ogerpon-Wellspring. Another thing I actually saw someone use Pressure Zapdos on ladder which I assume was intended to Pressure stall Body Press from Zamazenta-Crowned by switching hard Zapdos -> Heat Wave and then spam Roost/Volt Switch once Body Press can 2 shot. This is obviously in fear of a late game IDBP sweep on teams lacking hard counters like Toxapex or Gholdengo otherwise you'd just get your chip and dip.

Tapu Koko I do think this will be one of the biggest winners! Choice Specs Tapu Koko or Roost + Z, guess there's a lot you can do, maybe even some bulk invested to 1v1 better. Toxic would not be that bad either, easy

Gliscor Perhaps the rise of Gliscor returns, HO notably weaker with Zamazenta-Crowned in the tier with the addition of Spikes being stronger to pressure Zamazenta-Crowned and Ghost types being even more present. Granted not too far off from where we are now! But these Gliscor + Toxapex cores were heavily restricted by HO before.

Raging Bolt I honestly forgot what I was going to say about this Pokemon.. Though I'll leave it in here and respect whatever idea I had in my head earlier lol.

Tapu Lele and Kyurem Both of these Pokemon benefit much from a meta with less offense and more balance. Again if I haven't said it yet this post is mostly written from a ladder players perspective because I haven't played any tournaments for this tier recently or watched much. Though it is my impression that balance is more common there from watching NDPL a few months ago but I don't know what has developed since then.

Gholdengo This mon was already excellent, I do think defensive sets will continue to shine despite less HO and I just wanted to point out that Rocky Helmet Gholdengo is quite excellent especially paired with Tapu Lele. I'll comment more on Rocky Helmet after but with Focus Blast you threaten to OHKO all the Pursuitters in the tier.

Rocky Helmet and Spikes Balance both become much better, in the case of Spikes Balance mostly because I predict much less Mega-Diancie HO on ladder and perhaps Volt-Turn will ultimately rise to the top. Rocky Helmet I think is really strong and I use it on almost all my teams. It is not only good for Zamazenta-Crowned, as wearing it does down faster than Zamazenta because it lacks Lefovers but generally speaking punishing Rapid Spin or U-Turn are great too of course. While Kingambit was terrorizing ladder I felt that all my teams needed a Fighting type to keep up, so if that trend continues I think Rocky Helmet will be a top 2 item, with HDB #1 and disregarding Z-moves.

If you took the time to read through everything I wrote, I appreiciate it! Noteworthy I didn't bost any calcs but if anyone else wants to i think that would help players visualize the difference between these two both Zamazentas further! Also what EVs are you guys running? What movesets have you been experimenting with? I've considered things alongside IDBP like Metal Burst for Gholdengos, Light Screen in general + additional coverage, Roar/Rest etc. So let me know what you think could work or not!

 

[Toxic Ariados]

Okay, I just finished my suspect run using this team and I have to say, based on first impressions I think Zamazenta Crowned is pretty bonkers. I do NOT think this is worse than regular Zamazenta at all, the added bulk and Body Press damage is pretty significant. With Wish support I was able to keep it relatively healthy throughout the match to make up for the lost Leftovers slot. You don't need Substitute to punch holes in the opponent's team as you have way more opportunities to enter the field compared to regular Zamazenta. Being immune to Toxic is a really great buff, it allows you to drop Substitute for something like Rest, Crunch, Stone Edge, etc. You just have so many set up opportunities, and I've even brute forced through some of Zamazenta's so called checks just by mashing the most powerful move at my disposal (I literally 2HKO'd a Slowking-G with uninvested Heavy Slams).

Zamazenta Crowned can quite easily spiral out of control if you don't have a hard stop to it like Slowbro or Pecharunt. I'm willing to bet people are gonna start investing more of Zamazenta's EVs into Special Defense to stave off hits from Pecharunt and Gholdengo so that they can win the duel against them with Crunch. From the 50 games I've gotten so far, I've noticed that this Pokemon is incredibly powerful and it really feels like your average Iron Defense Zamazenta cranked up to the max, which is why I'm leaning towards Ban right now.

Oh yeah, one thing I also want to mention is how Zamazenta's teammates can assist it greatly. With Pursuit being a move that exists, Ghost Types can be picked off by Zamazenta's allies like Tyranitar or Kingambit. I don't think Zamazenta Crowned would be nearly as terrifying as it is without the great support options you can pick out for it.

 

[Malanaki]

If Zama-C gets unbanned, Pecharunt / Ceruledge stocks are going to go up drastically. Mark my words.