What's the deal with Ice-types in-game?

[R8]

maybe Ice is deemed a bit difficult to use for beginners considering the numbers of weaknesses of the type, thus the typing is left for the late stage of the games? This is coherent with the fact that early game you're mostly only exposed to the fire/water/grass rps (iirc your starters don't even have those at first) and various pokemon only having access to normal moves (and random bug types). I imagine rock types frequently come shortly after to encourage players to explore other damaging options outside of normal moves, making rock a challenge introductory to the type chart system.

In other words, i think ice might just be designed to be a late game typing that shouldn't be introduced to a player that is still learning the type chart as it is harder to use, but rather to a more experienced one, which also would explain why ice has been for a long time one of the two only types that hit Dragon super effectively - typing often associated to some top trainers found in the late game

 

[tentaghost]

maybe Ice is deemed a bit difficult to use for beginners considering the numbers of weaknesses of the type, thus the typing is left for the late stage of the games? This is coherent with the fact that early game you're mostly only exposed to the fire/water/grass rps (iirc your starters don't even have those at first) and various pokemon only having access to normal moves (and random bug types). I imagine rock types frequently come shortly after to encourage players to explore other damaging options outside of normal moves, making rock a challenge introductory to the type chart system.

In other words, i think ice might just be designed to be a late game typing that shouldn't be introduced to a player that is still learning the type chart as it is harder to use, but rather to a more experienced one, which also would explain why ice has been for a long time one of the two only types that hit Dragon super effectively - typing often associated to some top trainers found in the late game

i dont entirely buy the idea that ices type interactions are too complicated for beginniners since type interactions in general are (usually) designed to be pretty easy to sus out anyways.

I mean im sure a kid could understand why an ice type would have a hard time against a fire type, rock and steel and both crush ice easily and fighting can break through all the mineral-like types anyway.

For strengths the only one where i can see someone having trouble understanding is ground and dragon (atleast for kids who dont know about cold-blooded animals)

Not to mention a type that has a steep learning curve but still gives good results i would argue is all the more reason why it shouldnt be exclusively a late game type because then you have to ask "if im in the late game and already know the use-cases for the other types and fully understand their interactions, why should i bother going for a completely new type that the game has...

A. Never properly prepared me for as ive never had to worry about ice types until this one late game area and

B. Has complex interactions and uses at a point in the game where im way past the "learning the ropes" phase and is just trying to finish the game.

 

[Castersvarog]

Plus the games straight up tells you, on the very attacks you have, what’s good against a certain target.

 

[R8]

i dont entirely buy the idea that ices type interactions are too complicated for beginniners since type interactions in general are (usually) designed to be pretty easy to sus out anyways.

I mean im sure a kid could understand why an ice type would have a hard time against a fire type, rock and steel and both crush ice easily and fighting can break through all the mineral-like types anyway.

For strengths the only one where i can see someone having trouble understanding is ground and dragon (atleast for kids who dont know about cold-blooded animals)

Not to mention a type that has a steep learning curve but still gives good results i would argue is all the more reason why it shouldnt be exclusively a late game type because then you have to ask "if im in the late game and already know the use-cases for the other types and fully understand their interactions, why should i bother going for a completely new type that the game has...

A. Never properly prepared me for as ive never had to worry about ice types until this one late game area and

B. Has complex interactions and uses at a point in the game where im way past the "learning the ropes" phase and is just trying to finish the game.

I meant ice is hard to use because of its flaws as a typing, not because it is hard to understand - i put way too more emphasis on the type chart thing while that wasn't really my point oops. Ice has many weaknesses - being the worse defensive typing in the game, and also associated with glass cannons - and you want the player to have a good grasp of the game in general before giving something like this to the player

 

[tentaghost]

I meant ice is hard to use because of its flaws as a typing, not because it is hard to understand - i put way too more emphasis on the type chart thing while that wasn't really my point oops. Ice has many weaknesses - being the worse defensive typing in the game, and also associated with glass cannons - and you want the player to have a good grasp of the game in general before giving something like this to the player

true but i dont think exclusively late game is the right place to put it since again the player at that point would likely be sticking what already works for them.
Not to mention how is ice any different from bug or rock in that regard, if the reason for ice being late game is that its hard to work around the types inherent flaws, i would argue bug is way harder to use and thats mostly due to the most bug types not being that strong anyways yet thats usually one of the first types you come across early game.

 

[R8]

true but i dont think exclusively late game is the right place to put it since again the player at that point would likely be sticking what already works for them.
Not to mention how is ice any different from bug or rock in that regard, if the reason for ice being late game is that its hard to work around the types inherent flaws, i would argue bug is way harder to use and thats mostly due to the most bug types not being that strong anyways yet thats usually one of the first types you come across early game.

I'd argue bug sucks for the opposing reasons though, being designed to be an early game type to be tossed away later - which match the fact that they usually evolve to their final stage very early (~lvl 20 ish iirc)

 

[Bakugames]

I'd argue bug sucks for the opposing reasons though, being designed to be an early game type to be tossed away later - which match the fact that they usually evolve to their final stage very early (~lvl 20 ish iirc)

this hasnt been super true since gen 7 tbf. vikavolt is a mid-late game evo due to being a location based pokemon, orbeetle evolves at lv 36 and lokix is the earliest, but still at lv 24. you can even count gen 5 with its lv 30 scolipede and high friendship leavanny (so unless you grind for it, you tend to get it in your late 20s at best). they did do a few of the more usual bug patterns with vivillon and spidops, but theyre clearly not designing bugs exclusively as early game tools, but a type you can get any type and should stick around in your team (and when they dont, people get really mad. see spidops)

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Bug has always had more of a dichotomy to how it's designed. Yes, you have Caterpie and Weedle, but since Day 1 you also had Scyther and Pinsir, who have high stats and are designed as mid-late game Pokémon, and even Venomoth. Gen 2 also brought Scizor and Heracross who are similar.

They're actually kind of a two way dichotomy. They're either weak early game crutches who fall off and have simple designs, or they're cool, big, and strong and genuinely competent up to the late-game. Pinsir and Scyther were there since Day 1 and we've had a few even before Gen 5 doubled down on them (especially with Volcarona).

 

[Yung Dramps]

I think the weirdest thing about Ice's treatment is that they've gone through great lengths for a long while now to make Dragons more accessible in the relative early-game. That's the one type that was built at the start to be ultra late game and exotic and they still found it in them to radically despecialize it, so why not Ice?

 

[mertyville]

Something else I realized is that Rotom's Frost Form might be the worst form to use unless you have nothing else to use simply because it has only 1 STAB move and that Blizzard. In-game as time passes using a move with 70% is very unreliable from my experience. I have stopped using them for a long time unless I have no other option or a free option.
However, I don't know if there is any game where you get both Rotom for in-game use and can form change in time.

 

[Karxrida]

However, I don't know if there is any game where you get both Rotom for in-game use and can form change in time.

Pretty sure you can get Rotom at a reasonable point in XY and immediately have access to its forms. I think you can even find it already form changed in the wild, too?

 

[Hugin]

DP: Rotom is postgame, checking Bulbapedia I'm not sure if different forms of it even exist in these games
Platinum: Rotom is early, changing forms is event-locked
BW/B2W2: Rotom is postgame, changing forms is unlocked upon catching it.
XY: Rotom is around gym 6, changing forms is unlocked upon catching it.
USUM: Locked to Island Scan, changing forms is unlocked upon catching it.
SWSH: Available post-gym 6, changing forms is unlocked right before the E4
BDSP: Rotom is postgame, changing forms is unlocked upon catching it.
L:A: Rotom is available in the Coronet Highlands, no clue where that is in the pacing. Changing forms is unlocked eventually via RNG.
SV: Rotom is unlocked early, but is rare. Changing forms is unlocked eventually via RNG.

So there's at least a handful of games where it's useable, but far more often it's locked to the postgame or a weird acquisition method. And in games where it is useable, they often make changing forms slightly annoying for no reason. Not a reliable option for an ice-type.

Which, speaking as someone who's used Rotom, great mon, do not use it as your team's "X" type. It works as your fire or whatever, but no. Catch a FWG core, a rock, a bird, and then use Rotom as your Electric type. And when you walk into the bug-type gym, you have two fire-types. When you walk through a cave, you have two waters and a grass. Don't use it to replace a mon, use it as backup.

 

[Blanca Weiss]

DP: Rotom is postgame, checking Bulbapedia I'm not sure if different forms of it even exist in these games
Platinum: Rotom is early, changing forms is event-locked
BW/B2W2: Rotom is postgame, changing forms is unlocked upon catching it.
XY: Rotom is around gym 6, changing forms is unlocked upon catching it.
USUM: Locked to Island Scan, changing forms is unlocked upon catching it.
SWSH: Available post-gym 6, changing forms is unlocked right before the E4
BDSP: Rotom is postgame, changing forms is unlocked upon catching it.
L:A: Rotom is available in the Coronet Highlands, no clue where that is in the pacing. Changing forms is unlocked eventually via RNG.
SV: Rotom is unlocked early, but is rare. Changing forms is unlocked eventually via RNG.

So there's at least a handful of games where it's useable, but far more often it's locked to the postgame or a weird acquisition method. And in games where it is useable, they often make changing forms slightly annoying for no reason. Not a reliable option for an ice-type.

Which, speaking as someone who's used Rotom, great mon, do not use it as your team's "X" type. It works as your fire or whatever, but no. Catch a FWG core, a rock, a bird, and then use Rotom as your Electric type. And when you walk into the bug-type gym, you have two fire-types. When you walk through a cave, you have two waters and a grass. Don't use it to replace a mon, use it as backup.

In LA I'd say Rotom is around mid-late game as the highlands is the second to last area you unlock and you can get one or more of the appliances as soon as you unlock the higlands if lucky. The forms are introduced in platinum so they don't exist in dp.

 

[mertyville]

it really seems like form-changers have the ice type as the worst option. Castform gets massive boost in the Sun and Rain form. Now the Snow form would get a defense boost but you take double damage from anything anyways so it hardly is a selling point. Not sure about Arceus and Syvally because they are post-game Pokemon if you get them, so I cannot argue for or against their Ice-type forms. They are probably not bad as Ice-types for in-game use.

 

[Hugin]

it really seems like form-changers have the ice type as the worst option. Castform gets massive boost in the Sun and Rain form. Now the Snow form would get a defense boost but you take double damage from anything anyways so it hardly is a selling point. Not sure about Arceus and Syvally because they are post-game Pokemon if you get them, so I cannot argue for or against their Ice-type forms. They are probably not bad as Ice-types for in-game use.

In the vein of "the best ice-type is coverage on a different type", arguably Pikachu-Belle is the best option for the Cosplay Pikachu. Which is just sad.

 

[Hugin]

Reupping this because I realized there's an obvious avenue for an early/mid-game ice type that the games have actively avoided: Secondary typing for the water-starter. We've had a penguin, an otter/sea lion, and a seel without any of them getting the ice typing that those species would otherwise definitely have had.

 

[mertyville]

It is surprising in general that no starter got an Ice-type including the megas. We got Dark, Poison, Flying, Fighting, Steel, Fairy, Dragon, Ground, Ghost and Psychic. Dragon is Mega exclusive but on 3, which I would expect as one of the rarer types. Rock, Normal, Ice and Bug seem to be missing unless you count Eevee. Pikachu, Jolteon (through Starter Eevee) have been present as main types and there are no type combinations of the 4 (semi-)generic starter types.
I don't think anyone would be excited about a Normal-type secondary Type starter and Bug being still advertised as a 'weak' type and thus being 'unappealing'.

 

[Ironmage]

It is surprising in general that no starter got an Ice-type including the megas. We got Dark, Poison, Flying, Fighting, Steel, Fairy, Dragon, Ground, Ghost and Psychic. Dragon is Mega exclusive but on 3, which I would expect as one of the rarer types. Rock, Normal, Ice and Bug seem to be missing unless you count Eevee. Pikachu, Jolteon (through Starter Eevee) have been present as main types and there are no type combinations of the 4 (semi-)generic starter types.
I don't think anyone would be excited about a Normal-type secondary Type starter and Bug being still advertised as a 'weak' type and thus being 'unappealing'.

I don't think power level is the reason they avoided Bug. I think they avoided it for the first stage because it interacts too much with Fire/Water/Grass matchups and having fewer inspirations generally considered cute, followed by it being awkward to pick up later since it's tied heavily to physical form.

 

[Codraroll]

It is surprising in general that no starter got an Ice-type including the megas. We got Dark, Poison, Flying, Fighting, Steel, Fairy, Dragon, Ground, Ghost and Psychic. Dragon is Mega exclusive but on 3, which I would expect as one of the rarer types. Rock, Normal, Ice and Bug seem to be missing unless you count Eevee. Pikachu, Jolteon (through Starter Eevee) have been present as main types and there are no type combinations of the 4 (semi-)generic starter types.
I don't think anyone would be excited about a Normal-type secondary Type starter and Bug being still advertised as a 'weak' type and thus being 'unappealing'.

The secondary typings of the starters have been limited to Dark, Ghost, Psychic, Fighting, and Fairy since after Gen IV. I suspect part of the reason why is because these are considered the "cool" types alongside Steel and Dragon, but also, and possibly more importantly to Game Freak, they are the types that don't interact with neither Grass, Fire, nor Water on the type chart (Fire resists Fairy, but that's fairly minor). By limiting the secondary types to these types, the interactions between the starters' primary type is left intact no matter the combination (except Grass/Fairy, I guess). With the exception of Normal, all other types would screw up the Fire-Water-Grass type triangle somehow.

 

[Bakugames]

i think thats right, but i dont know why theyre precious about the starter interactions. by the time you get a secondary typing, a kid would have been made to understand most type interactions and, most importantly, been asked to catch other pokemon and diversify their team. If anything, i think starting w pure types and increasing complexity is a pretty fun thing to do in general to test their mettle.

 

[Codraroll]

i think thats right, but i dont know why theyre precious about the starter interactions. by the time you get a secondary typing, a kid would have been made to understand most type interactions and, most importantly, been asked to catch other pokemon and diversify their team. If anything, i think starting w pure types and increasing complexity is a pretty fun thing to do in general to test their mettle.

I think it's done that way to prevent any one starter from being clearly better than the other two, or clearly worse. It's dang hard to fit in other types than the aforementioned five while still keeping the three starters in balance.

That being said, however, they could achieve some balance through neutral matchups between the secondary types, rather than sticking to type triangles between them. Match every starter's secondary type with one that only interacts with its own primary type, with triangles like Water/Electric, Grass/Poison, and Fire/Normal.

If being able to hit the next 'mon in the triangle with two different STAB types isn't a problem, Fire/Ice could work in the starter triangle. Grass/Ice would have a nasty 4x weakness to Fire and be imbalanced, Water/Ice would lose its resistance to Fire and also be imbalanced, but Ice pairs nicely with Fire without upsetting the balance too much (approximately the same goes for Bug, but that's another story). Ice/Fire isn't a very intuitive typing for new players to deal with, though, and it kind of limits what secondary types you could give to the other starters. Although again, Water/Electric and Grass/Poison could work without rocking the balance.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I think it's done that way to prevent any one starter from being clearly better than the other two, or clearly worse.

...
I really don't think this is something they're all that fussed about.

 

[Hugin]

...
I really don't think this is something they're all that fussed about.

I do. Or rather, I think it's something they've cared a lot about since Gen 5. In Gen 4, the secondary types modified the matchup heavily(Grass/Ground, Fire/Fighting, Water/Steel). Since then, we've had:
Gen 5: Grass, Fire/Fighting, Water. Matchup unchanged.
Gen 6: Grass/Fighting, Fire/Psychic, Water/Dark. Matchup enhanced.
Gen 7: Grass/Ghost, Fire/Dark, Water/Fairy. Matchup mostly enhanced.
Gen 8: Grass, Fire, Water. Matchup unchanged.
Gen 9: Grass/Dark, Fire/Ghost, Water/Fighting. Matchup inverted.

I don't think we're at the level of being able to predict future type combos or anything, to be clear. But I think that GF has clearly decided to only pair the starters with secondary types that have their own triangle and otherwise do not interact with the existing type triangle.