Pokemon Legends: Z-A Combat/PVP Discussion Thread

[realsoupersand]

Dropping Electric coverage really hurts, but I guess that could always be shifted elsewhere.

 

[Vengeance417]

Dropping Electric coverage really hurts, but I guess that could always be shifted elsewhere.

Kyogre doesn’t need it. All you’re hitting with Tbolt is other Kyogre (which never OHKOes anyway) and Water-types, which you can cover with teammates. It’s even easier to slot something strong for ogre in S7 now that you can add another restricted, like Solar Blade Xerneas or any other legend that knows Solar Beam.

 

[R_N]

https://pokepast.es/7864c7cfad4144b1
- Kyogre's physical bulk investment lets it take +1 Life Orb Mewtwo's Psystrike+.

I achieved rank A in the opening hours of season 7, with a 62.96% win rate (17-8-2-X) out of 27 matches. Most of the losses were in the first ten matches (3-6-1-X), which generally came down to either a one/two point difference in low-score matches or someone barely beating me out in a KO race against two uncompetitive teams. The latter 17 games were much more consistent at a 82.4% win rate (14-2-1-X).

I'll keep my thoughts on the climb brief because most of the writing in the next section would probably be decent extrapolations for this season. As far as I can tell, the start of this season doesn't feel alien to me unlike the previous one, since I already had a decent or good experience piloting most Restricted Pokemon at this point. There were a lot of Xerneas and Groudon running around, which made picking Gholdengo and Kyogre a good call. To anyone wanting to try this team out, be mindful around Magearna and Electric-types.

---

I used this set to get my mega stones and it's really funny how good these are

After like a month away from the game I forgot how good snipes were. I mean preaching to the more experienced choir, I'm sure, but as a normie who only cared about the mega stones it was still funny to see kyogre's huge ice beam last so long I picked up 3 kills. after i started moving again

 

[Terimas]

Volcanion @ Expert Belt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Protect

I've definitely gotta agree with Volcanion being incredible in this meta. The triple snipe coverage is so good against common opponents and Volcanion really felt like a third restricted with its power and capabilities.

Earth Power, Sludge Bomb and even Explosion seem like fun alternatives for the fourth slot.

 

[a blue banana]

Earth Power, Sludge Bomb and even Explosion seem like fun alternatives for the fourth slot.

Protect is really important for Volcanion to enable wins in matchups that it may not get otherwise. The two coverage options you listed either don't hit their targets hard enough to be worth slotting over Protect, and Explosion gives one of your opponents a point.

 

[realsoupersand]

I just wrapped up my run to Rank A. I had a total of 28 battles. I hit 1st place 15 times, 2nd place 7 times, 3rd place 4 times, and 4th place 2 times. I used multiple Pokemon throughout the run. None of them ever felt quite right to me. I really hope that we go back to a non-Ubers meta soon...

I used Kyogre and Xerneas on most of my teams. I just used standard CM Kyogre and GeoXern. I tried Expert Belt and Blue Orb on Kyogre. Expert Belt felt better because of how long Primal Reversion takes, but the extra power from Blue Orb was nice. I initially tried using Surf over Thunderbolt and immediately switch back after a single battle.

My last slot was usually Mega Heatran with Magma Storm, Steel Beam, Earth Power, and Solar Beam. I also alternated between Assault Vest Melmetal with Double Iron Bash, Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, and Earthquake and Mega Magearna with Calm Mind, Fleur Cannon, Steel Beam, and Solar Beam.

I tried Assault Vest and Focus Sash versions of Special Rayquaza (Meteor Beam, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Solar Beam) and Red Orb Groudon (Precipice Blades, Earthquake, Heat Crash, Swords Dance), too. I tried Groudon in my last five matches.

I couldn't quite figure out the right combination of Pokemon to use, but I still had a 1st place win rate of over 50%. Despite how much I wasn't having fun this season, I'm satisfied with my results.

 

[Blitz]

After today’s Pokémon Presents, Mega Garchomp Z is now available in ZA!

 

[Blitz]

And… the ruleset for Season 8 has been revealed. Only Pokémon with Megas introduced in ZA are allowed! Should be a fun one.

 

[Ravaris]

Looks like someone at the Pokémon company got tiered of all the people who weren't running mega evolutions. They don't allow held items other then megastones either.

My memory is bad so I'll have to find a list of all the new Megas.

 

[realsoupersand]

So... not only do they have to be able to Mega Evolve, they also can't hold anything other than a Mega Stone  and they must have a Mega Evolution that was introduced in Z-A? This will undoubtedly be one of the seasons of all time. At least we won't have to deal with Xerneas, right? It sounds like it'll be much more fun than Season 7, though that's not a high bar for me.

My first thought is to go with Starmie for its beautiful coverage and access to Meteor Beam, Garchomp Z because The Chomp, and Magearna because nuke. BoltBeam + Dragon/Steel/Fairy defensive core? Sounds good to me!

 

[Neosonic97]

Okay, so this Metagame is gonna be much different from the ones prior, so let's go over all of the Pokemon that can be used, 'cus it's quite a short list:

Base Game Megas:



























Mega Dimension Megas:



















So, going off of these lists, going over some noteworthy 'mons...

: Mega Garchomp Z is obviously incredibly powerful because, well, it's Garchomp, and it's a Z-Mega, which means it uses moves instantly. The most mighty Dragon-type you'll ever see in Season 8, and arguably its scariest Pokémon, in contention with two others, imho.

: Another self-explanatory one. Your options for dealing with this thing are incredibly limited. The only ones I can see off the bat are Heatran, Chandelure, Excadrill, and maybe Garchomp if you can avoid getting obliterated by Fleur Cannon. This also kind of just dooms and who are totally outclassed by Magearna. The second of what I'm considering to be in the running for "the big three".

: The only noteworthy fire-types in the metagame are and , who get obliterated by any ground move, like Golisopod's Drill Run (Emboar, Delphox, Pyroar and Scovillain are non-factors here). Suffice to say, Mega Golisopod's about to have a field day, so long as it can avoid getting zapped before it can Mega Evolve. Golisopod can also just not mega evolve against the Fire-types for a better matchup, and First Impression is a royal pain as always. It does have to be careful about getting walled by Skarmory, though! The third of what I consider to be "the big three".

: It kills Dragons hard with its Ice STAB, while Glaive Rush is an immensely strong neutral nuke. There's not really a lot to say about Baxcalibur.

: In an odd twist of fate, Mega Meganium may very well be the best answer to Garchomp in the metagame. Its Grass/Fairy-typing perfectly positions itself to wall off most of what Garchomp can actually throw at it save for a rogue Fire Fang/Flamethrower or Poison Jab.

: It handles all three of what I'm assuming will be the big three quite well, only fearing rogue coverage moves like Thunderbolt from Magearna or Flamethrower from Garchomp. In particular, it blanks Golisopod something fierce.

: I'm only putting this here to point out that Zygarde is once again going to be bad, primarily because Garchomp is still around and will do everything it can, better. Even as the only Restricted, this thing just cannot catch a break.

and : These two are in contention for the Electric-type nukers (specifically Mega Raichu X, though), whose main use is to deep-fry non-Mega Evolved Golisopod, both forms of Skarmory, and maybe an errant Greninja or Starmie here or there. Raichu hits harder than Zeraora does, but Zeraora has better longevity because Plasma Fists doesn't have recoil damage, unlike Volt Tackle.

: The best Ghost-type in the meta because it's a Z-Mega and thus uses moves instantly, but it's only really worth using when Mega Evolved. You're gonna have to build around this one to succeed.

: The best fighting-type in the meta because it's a Z-Mega. Granted, it does have competition from , and who match up better into Garchomp and Golisopod at the cost of matching up worse into Magearna.

 

[Ravaris]

Thanks Neosonic97, I don't actually know how to get the little sprites to appear in my post so that helps alot.

Your analysis is also mostly on point. I think Heatran looks good at first glace but it ends up being earthquake bait as it has been since it was first usable. This means you HAVE to run a flying type and you HAVE to switch when you notice an earthquake mon lumbering twardes you like the Kool-aid man comeing to wreck a wall. It's not impossilbe but there really has to be an upside to doing this and I don't see much of one this season.

I'm kind of excited that Mega Meganium looks at least usable this season as my starter for this game I couldn't be happier that the little guy has been able to find a use in multiplayer for at least a few seasons. I'll probalby use it, but that leaves me with the uncomfertable question of what my magearna counter will be. I always have trouble using Excadrill in this game becouse of how frail it can be. So maybe I'll run Chandalure.

Absol is a blast to use, but really requiers support to do so, mostly dual screens support if possible. I think Meganium can handel this as well but Absol is here for a good time not a long time which I know is workable but I've struggled personally to make frail mons work in this game.

More things to think about....

 

[Neosonic97]

Thanks Neosonic97, I don't actually know how to get the little sprites to appear in my post so that helps alot.

Your analysis is also mostly on point. I think Heatran looks good at first glace but it ends up being earthquake bait as it has been since it was first usable. This means you HAVE to run a flying type and you HAVE to switch when you notice an earthquake mon lumbering twardes you like the Kool-aid man comeing to wreck a wall. It's not impossilbe but there really has to be an upside to doing this and I don't see much of one this season.

To be fair, Heatran _can_ run Protect to bait Earthquake users. The problem is that the main target you'd want to use it on is Mega Golisopod (who's _only_ weak to Fire), whom Protect doesn't work against because Drill Run+ will just go through it and obliterate Heatran on the spot anyway.

Heatran does have an upside, in that its fire moves will absolutely eviscerate Mega Golisopod, Skarmory and Magearna if they're caught unawares, all incredibly important targets, and Water-types aren't very common in this meta, given that we only have , , and none of whom are all that great due to folding to important targets. They're really just not in a good spot right now, especially since Starmie and Greninja just fold like wet tissue paper in the face of opposing Golisopod (and Greninja sucks into Magearna too), while Feraligatr and Tatsugiri are murked by both Garchomp and Magearna. Well, I say that, but there is one Water 'mon who is good, and that's Pre-Mega itself, who I've extensively mentioned here as a massive, massive threat.

Also, Heatran isn't nearly as bad as Chandelure into Mega Absol Z, and also isn't dead meat against the somewhat struggling (due to matching up badly into both Golisopod and Magearna) but absolutely not to be underestimated .

Fire-types kind of just struggle this meta, though. Even the best of 'em can't really hack it.

To get the little sprites to appear, surround the Pokémon or form's names in colons. That is, formatted like :Pokémon: where the "Pokémon" part is whatever species or form you want the little sprite for.

I'm kind of excited that Mega Meganium looks at least usable this season as my starter for this game I couldn't be happier that the little guy has been able to find a use in multiplayer for at least a few seasons. I'll probalby use it, but that leaves me with the uncomfertable question of what my magearna counter will be. I always have trouble using Excadrill in this game becouse of how frail it can be. So maybe I'll run Chandalure.

Funny enough, its only real competition for a starter is its fellow Grass-type starter, Chesnaught, who matches up better into Golisopod and Absol pre-Mega Evolution, at the cost of doing worse into Magearna, Skarmory, Staraptor, Hawlucha and funnily enough Meganium itself.

 

[Vengeance417]

: The only noteworthy fire-types in the metagame are and , who get obliterated by any ground move, like Golisopod's Drill Run (Emboar, Delphox, Pyroar and Scovillain are non-factors here). Suffice to say, Mega Golisopod's about to have a field day, so long as it can avoid getting zapped before it can Mega Evolve. Golisopod can also just not mega evolve against the Fire-types for a better matchup, and First Impression is a royal pain as always. It does have to be careful about getting walled by Skarmory, though! The third of what I consider to be "the big three".

I wouldn't write off entirely. Its main niche over the other Fires is dual screens, and something the other dual screeners have in common is how poorly they match up vs Magearna and the other Steel-types. It also has Blast Burn for a massive nuclear missile, and on a non screens set, can boost that with CM or NP.

I don't see +fimp on Golisopod being nearly as good without Life Orb to boost its power. Not to mention, outside of a few frail targets, +fimp doesn't have many good targets, and it takes mega energy to use. We'll see how it plays out, but I'm not as sold on this move for the moment.

: In an odd twist of fate, Mega Meganium may very well be the best answer to Garchomp in the metagame. Its Grass/Fairy-typing perfectly positions itself to wall off most of what Garchomp can actually throw at it save for a rogue Fire Fang/Flamethrower or Poison Jab.

My issue with Mega Meganium as a Garchomp check is that it can only do so as a Mega. Base Meganium is still just pure Grass-type, meaning it's susceptible to Dragon STABs alongside whatever coverage move Chomp wants to tech on. Even in a Mega Meganium vs Mega Chomp Z scenario, Chomp can easily dodge Dazzling Gleam with its lightning-fast Dig...or just fly away from it and completely ignore it, and from that point, Meganium's not doing anything meaningful because Grass has pretty terrible coverage in this format. Base Meganium on its own just does nothing with its meager attacking stats, and has to take your mega, otherwise it's a dead slot. I feel the best mons in the format will accomplish something meaningful in and out of Mega Evolution, and Meganium really doesn't beyond setting screens, which there are better screeners available (Clefable being a prime example). Speaking of Clefable:

: Another self-explanatory one. Your options for dealing with this thing are incredibly limited. The only ones I can see off the bat are Heatran, Chandelure, Excadrill, and maybe Garchomp if you can avoid getting obliterated by Fleur Cannon. This also kind of just dooms and who are totally outclassed by Magearna. The second of what I'mconsidering to be in the running for "the big three".

I disagree with Magearna completely outclassing Clefable. A big difference is the typing, with Clefable checking Garchomp much better thanks to not being weak to Ground. Also, remember that we don't have Shuca Berry anymore, so anything running Ground coverage will scare Magearna, most notably Mega Baxcalibur which just one-shots with +1 EQ:

+1 252+ Atk Baxcalibur-Mega Earthquake+ vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna-Mega: 186-221 (99.4 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Clef also has much faster base movement speed than Magearna, letting it engage targets and run from threats much quicker. It has Meteor Beam, too, letting it deal with Fire-types in a way Magearna can't.

 

[Neosonic97]

Okay, so:

I wouldn't write off entirely. Its main niche over the other Fires is dual screens, and something the other dual screeners have in common is how poorly they match up vs Magearna and the other Steel-types. It also has Blast Burn for a massive nuclear missile, and on a non screens set, can boost that with CM or NP.

I don't see +fimp on Golisopod being nearly as good without Life Orb to boost its power. Not to mention, outside of a few frail targets, +fimp doesn't have many good targets, and it takes mega energy to use. We'll see how it plays out, but I'm not as sold on this move for the moment.

Admittedly First Impression is a bit less of a pain here, but Golisopod is still going to be a nightmare to deal with without any particularly standout Fire-types.

As for Delphox, Dual Screens are admittedly a nice niche, but what Delphox gains in that, it loses a lot everywhere else. It's not resistant to Bug, meaning if it can't get screens off (or if the screens are removed via something like Brick Break or Psychic Fangs), Golisopod can seriously threaten it with its poor defense, and its coverage is generally lacking in comparison to Heatran and Chandelure. On top of this, Heatran's big red button in Magma Storm, I find is generally better than Delphox's Blast Burn because of its ability to hit targets on switch-in if they're positioned wrong (due to its lingering effect similar to Fire Spin), which helps pressure opponents. The niche is there, but I don't think the tradeoff is worth it.

I disagree with Magearna completely outclassing Clefable. A big difference is the typing, with Clefable checking Garchomp much better thanks to not being weak to Ground. Also, remember that we don't have Shuca Berry anymore, so anything running Ground coverage will scare Magearna, most notably Mega Baxcalibur which just one-shots with +1 EQ:

+1 252+ Atk Baxcalibur-Mega Earthquake+ vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna-Mega: 186-221 (99.4 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Clef also has much faster base movement speed than Magearna, letting it engage targets and run from threats much quicker. It has Meteor Beam, too, letting it deal with Fire-types in a way Magearna can't.

Clef can't deal with Baxcalibur either because after Mega Evolving it gets flattened by whatever ice move Baxcalibur is running (and without it, Clef isn't exactly an offensive standout, only being marginally better than Meganium in that regard in terms of raw stats), and it also matches up a lot worse than Magearna into Skarmory, Golisopod and opposing Magearna. While Staraptor, Hawlucha and Skarmory can make their flying-typing work, this is because their secondary typings can help play aroundits weaknesses (Hawlucha and Staraptor offensively by flattening any pesky Baxcalibur trying to ice them out, Skarmory because of its incredible defensive typing in general meaning it only fears rogue Thunderbolts most of the time), and considering Clefable's also lacking physical bulk, even Garchomp can easily slot in coverage to deal heavy damage to even max bulk Clefable.

+1 252 Atk Garchomp-Mega-Z Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Clefable: 132-156 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And since this is a Z-Mega we're talking about here, there's basically no time before Chomp uses another move to finish Clefable off (nor can Clef get away because Garchomp's just that fast). It's not a good check to Garchomp by any metric, especially since its low speed means high cooldowns, meaning it's not likely to get Moonblast back before Chomp goes in for the kill (and Moonblast is generally a worse, easier to avoid Fairy STAB than Fleur Cannon is). It also doesn't help that Clef's best Flying STAB is Air Slash. In general, I do think Clef is outclassed, because while in a vacuum it seems Clef has a niche, it's just so much worse against... everything else due to its far lower power and far more weakness-prone Fairy/Flying-typing when mega'd.

I definitely think Chomp's gonna rule the meta though. It can just do so much and easily adapt itself to the rest of the metagame.

We never can escape from , can we?

 

[a blue banana]

Clef...also matches up a lot worse than Magearna into Skarmory, Golisopod and opposing Magearna.

I don't see how Golisopod would be a worse matchup for Clefable because the Trainer can simply opt to run away. Clefable's movement speed is fast enough to outrun Golisopod and move out of any melee-range moves apart from bad network latency, and its access to Meteor Beam means that Clefable always has access to coverage to handle a Golisopod hunting another foe and a way to boost its offense outside of Mega Evolving.

It also doesn't help that Clef's best Flying STAB is Air Slash.

I don't think Clefable would use Air Slash in any circumstance. Meteor Beam, Ice Beam, and Moonblast would cover all the types Air Slash would be effective against while being better in utility, sniping ability, or power.

 

[Vengeance417]

Admittedly First Impression is a bit less of a pain here, but Golisopod is still going to be a nightmare to deal with without any particularly standout Fire-types.

Idk about you, but Chandelure has historically been one of the better Fire-types around before Armarouge hit the scene, with Delphox not too far behind. Heatran’s also pretty strong, as you’ve mentioned already. Mega Skarmory’s going to be a dominant force in this meta, so having good Heat Wave users will be crucial, and we have those.

As for Delphox, Dual Screens are admittedly a nice niche, but what Delphox gains in that, it loses a lot everywhere else. It's not resistant to Bug, meaning if it can't get screens off (or if the screens are removed via something like Brick Break or Psychic Fangs), Golisopod can seriously threaten it with its poor defense, and its coverage is generally lacking in comparison to Heatran and Chandelure. On top of this, Heatran's big red button in Magma Storm, I find is generally better than Delphox's Blast Burn because of its ability to hit targets on switch-in if they're positioned wrong (due to its lingering effect similar to Fire Spin), which helps pressure opponents. The niche is there, but I don't think the tradeoff is worth it.

Delphox’s lack of Bug resistance hardly matters when Golisopod has SD-boosted Waterfall and Drill Run as primary clicks vs it. I’d say Delphox’s matchup vs it is about as bad as the other Fires, with Heatran being 4x weak to Drill Run and Chandelure being just as weak to Waterfall and Drill Run as Delphox is.

Also, what do you mean Delphox lacks coverage? It’s about on par with the other fire types? All 3 have Solar Beam, and while Heatran has STAB Steel Beam and Earth Power, and Chandelure has STAB Shadow Ball (which sucks most of the time and Chandelure hardly uses), Delphox has homing Psychic moves and Focus Blast. It doesn’t matter on a screens set anyway. Screens Phox’s job is to get up screens and ward off the prominent Steel-types, which as I said earlier, the other screen setters can’t do.

A team of and is a good example of playing to Delphox’s strengths, blasting through other Skarmory so your Skarmory and Garchomp can go to town on everything else, with Screens to boot. Meanwhile, Skarmory defends Delphox from Ground-types and anything with Ground coverage.

Clef can't deal with Baxcalibur either because after Mega Evolving it gets flattened by whatever ice move Baxcalibur is running (and without it, Clef isn't exactly an offensive standout, only being marginally better than Meganium in that regard in terms of raw stats), and it also matches up a lot worse than Magearna into Skarmory, Golisopod and opposing Magearna. While Staraptor, Hawlucha and Skarmory can make their flying-typing work, this is because their secondary typings can help play aroundits weaknesses (Hawlucha and Staraptor offensively by flattening any pesky Baxcalibur trying to ice them out, Skarmory because of its incredible defensive typing in general meaning it only fears rogue Thunderbolts most of the time), and considering Clefable's also lacking physical bulk, even Garchomp can easily slot in coverage to deal heavy damage to even max bulk Clefable.

+1 252 Atk Garchomp-Mega-Z Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Clefable: 132-156 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And since this is a Z-Mega we're talking about here, there's basically no time before Chomp uses another move to finish Clefable off (nor can Clef get away because Garchomp's just that fast). It's not a good check to Garchomp by any metric, especially since its low speed means high cooldowns, meaning it's not likely to get Moonblast back before Chomp goes in for the kill (and Moonblast is generally a worse, easier to avoid Fairy STAB than Fleur Cannon is). It also doesn't help that Clef's best Flying STAB is Air Slash. In general, I do think Clef is outclassed, because while in a vacuum it seems Clef has a niche, it's just so much worse against... everything else due to its far lower power and far more weakness-prone Fairy/Flying-typing when mega'd.

I definitely think Chomp's gonna rule the meta though. It can just do so much and easily adapt itself to the rest of the metagame.

We never can escape from , can we?

Clefable does not just rely on Moonblast to deal with Dragon-types. It uses Ice Beam alongside Moonblast to handle Garchomp, and Meteor Beam to not only boost itself while attacking, but blast holes through Bax, Fire-types, and Rock-weaks in general. Trust me, no one’s bothering with Air Slash.

The Bax matchup can honestly go either way anyway, as it depends on the scenario. If Bax is running a set of SD/Icicle Spear/DR/EQ or Glaive Rush, Clef can Mega Evolve vs the incoming Icicle Spear, and now Bax can’t do anything to Mega Clef now that it’s EQ-immune. This will be different if they bait the Mega with EQ instead to then follow up with Spear, but Clef is fast enough to dodge most of the Spear, since Bax is incredibly slow, and even as base Clef, it can just run from the lumbering Bax thanks to the aforementioned fast movement speed.

Clef can absolutely deal with Bax, and don’t underestimate its SpA when it has access to Meteor Beam to be powerful in and out of mega. Clef likely won’t want to use its mega that much anyway, which actually benefits its teammates that would prefer to mega.

 

[a blue banana]

To help with teambuilding and threat management, I put together a basic list of season 8 Pokemon organized by notable traits. Order is mostly random.

Aside from Zygarde, Pokemon not in parantheses have generally been considered to be good in past formats by most regulars in the Discord server.

EDIT: Updated with fancy new Z-A sprites!

Threat List

Ground-types: ()
Ground-type Answers: ( )
Fairy-types: ( )
Specially Offensive Fire-types: ( )
Ice-types: ( )
- Ice Beam: ( )
Electric-types: ( )

---

Z Megas:
Semi-invuln / Crash-type Moves: ( )
Physical Setup: ( )
Special Setup: ( )
Dual Screens: ( )
Trapping Moves: ( )
Offensively dependent on Mega Evolution: (situational) ( )

(Dragalge: )

 

[Antihaxxer]

Is there any replay of High Level ZA fights ?

 

[BlazingBarrager]

Is there any replay of High Level ZA fights ?

People usually post them in the Discord.

 

[Neosonic97]

Clefable does not just rely on Moonblast to deal with Dragon-types. It uses Ice Beam alongside Moonblast to handle Garchomp, and Meteor Beam to not only boost itself while attacking, but blast holes through Bax, Fire-types, and Rock-weaks in general. Trust me, no one’s bothering with Air Slash.

The Bax matchup can honestly go either way anyway, as it depends on the scenario. If Bax is running a set of SD/Icicle Spear/DR/EQ or Glaive Rush, Clef can Mega Evolve vs the incoming Icicle Spear, and now Bax can’t do anything to Mega Clef now that it’s EQ-immune. This will be different if they bait the Mega with EQ instead to then follow up with Spear, but Clef is fast enough to dodge most of the Spear, since Bax is incredibly slow, and even as base Clef, it can just run from the lumbering Bax thanks to the aforementioned fast movement speed.

Clef can absolutely deal with Bax, and don’t underestimate its SpA when it has access to Meteor Beam to be powerful in and out of mega. Clef likely won’t want to use its mega that much anyway, which actually benefits its teammates that would prefer to mega.

The issue with relying on non-STAB Ice Beam (or other Ice coverage on 'mons not named Baxcalibur [or Crabominable/Froslass I guess]) to deal with Chomp specifically is that's not going to be quite as reliable in a metagame teeming with Chomp Z, who can tank an Ice Beam due to not being quad weak to the move. Remember, Chomp Z loses the Ground-typing and thus the Ice quad weakness. That's why I mentioned Moonblast instead of Ice Beam.

Clef is very reliant on Meteor Beam to have an offensive presence, though. Otherwise, its offenses are only marginally better than Meganium's (and it gets blasted to dust by Magearna anyway).

The reason I think Magearna just completely outclasses Clefable is because DESPITE Clef's access to Meteor Beam where Magearna doesn't have it, and Magearna's Ground-weakness, is because having the strongest Fairy-type move in the meta, plus excellent coverage for common weaknesses in just two moves means Magearna matches up a lot better into the metagame at large.

Like, looking at a Fleur Cannon/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast set, the number of targets that can hit Magearna super-effectively without ALSO risking a Supereffective hit on themselves is minimal, basically boiling down to , , , and . Magearna can be pretty freeform with its fourth move as a result. Calm Mind is probably going to be the staple fourth slot to boost Magearna's power and offset the downside of Fleur Cannon (while also helping keep Fire-type attacks at bay), but it does have other options. Steel Beam for a secondary nuke, Energy Ball, Solar Beam or Petal Dance to crush Golurk, Power Gem to threaten every remaining non-Emboar Fire-type, Psychic or Psyshock if it really hates Emboar that much, Substitute or Protect to try to keep incoming Earthquakes at bay, or even Reflect/Light Screen to support the team. There are a lot of options. And it's not reliant on Mega Evolving to be viable, either. It's never going to be able to do all of these at once, but because Magearna has these options and room to run them because of how well Fleur Cannon, Thunderbolt (or Volt Switch, if you're into that) and Focus Blast cover most of the metagame together, you can never quite be sure what the fourth move is.

This is unlike Clef, who isn't very strong without Meteor Beam's boost, meaning its supereffective hits aren't all that strong without it (unless it Mega Evolves), and more damningly, just plain thuds into every Steel-type in the metagame unless it gives up a crucial coverage slot, and generally just has a worse defensive typing outside of the lack of ground/fire weaknesses, with the latter not being all that troublesome considering that Fire in general just isn't a great type in this meta due to Garchomp almost undoubtedly going to be the ruler of the metagame.

 

[a blue banana]

The issue with relying on non-STAB Ice Beam (or other Ice coverage on 'mons not named Baxcalibur [or Crabominable/Froslass I guess]) to deal with Chomp specifically is that's not going to be quite as reliable in a metagame teeming with Chomp Z, who can tank an Ice Beam due to not being quad weak to the move. Remember, Chomp Z loses the Ground-typing and thus the Ice quad weakness. That's why I mentioned Moonblast instead of Ice Beam.

Because Ice Beam is a solid and common sniping move anyway, it's still something Garchomp players have to consider. Having multiple foes with super effective coverage can still force or threaten them to play reactively in the heat of a match.

I also don't think the part about Mega Garchomp Z's typing change needed to be phrased like that; I'm pretty sure your respondent is fully aware of it.

Clef is very reliant on Meteor Beam to have an offensive presence, though. Otherwise, its offenses are only marginally better than Meganium's (and it gets blasted to dust by Magearna anyway).

I really don't think base 95 SpA with Clefable's wide type coverage can be considered marginal. It feels like you're downplaying its offense too much.

Like, looking at a Fleur Cannon/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast set...

Focus Blast's slow projectile speed and startup are generally too unreliable, and Magearna's movement speed won't allow it to position itself quickly enough to offset Focus Blast's negatives.

 

[Neosonic97]

Focus Blast's slow projectile speed and startup are generally too unreliable, and Magearna's movement speed won't allow it to position itself quickly enough to offset Focus Blast's negatives.

Then why does Clefable get a pass? Its movement speed is only marginally faster than Magearna's (somehow, given its lower base speed stat), and Moonblast has the same slow projectile problem.

Plus, Focus Blast's main targets in regards to Magearna tend to be on the slower side anyway (like Heatran).

Also...

I really don't think base 95 SpA with Clefable's wide type coverage can be considered marginal. It feels like you're downplaying its offense too much.

Going by that logic, Chimecho (That's this: ) is a threat. Exact same SpA, similar coverage including access to Meteor Beam, and Psychic/Psyshock are generally better moves to have STAB on than Moonblast.

Clefable has one of the lowest attacking stats in use in the entire metagame. I looked it up, and it's tied for fourth lowest, only beating Meganium, Malamar and Meowstic, and tied with Chimecho.

 

[Vengeance417]

The issue with relying on non-STAB Ice Beam (or other Ice coverage on 'mons not named Baxcalibur [or Crabominable/Froslass I guess]) to deal with Chomp specifically is that's not going to be quite as reliable in a metagame teeming with Chomp Z, who can tank an Ice Beam due to not being quad weak to the move. Remember, Chomp Z loses the Ground-typing and thus the Ice quad weakness. That's why I mentioned Moonblast instead of Ice Beam.

You keep moving the goal post on this issue. Your first argument was Clefable solely relying on Moonblast to deal with Garchomp, with no mentions of the standard Moonblast + Ice Beam set, and after myself and others brought that up, now Clefable "can't deal with Chomp Z because Chomp Z is pure Dragon-type". Since you were quick to remind me (I didn't need to be reminded) that Chomp Z loses the Ground-typing and its 4x ice weakness, and conveniently omitting the pre-mega stages of any given fight (remember, Garchomp loses the Focus Sash and Yache Berry in this metagame), losing its Ground-typing is also a double-edged sword. Sure, you take Ice Beams better, but now you lose Ground STAB.

Since most competent Chomp Z players will be running SD / Drush / Dig / coverage move to deal with as many threats as possible while dodging attacks, the Clef matchup becomes that much worse if it doesn't run Poison Jab, and if it's running Poison Jab and not Fire Blast, the Magearna (the Fairy-type that "completely outclasses Clefable") and Skarmory matchups get even worse for Chomp Z. Fun fact: Chomp Z's +1 +Dig does not even come close to one shotting Magearna...in a metagame without Shuca Berry btw:

+1 252+ Atk Garchomp-Mega-Z Dig+ vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 121-143 (64.7 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Garchomp-Mega-Z Dig+ vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 80-95 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Since Dig just thuds into Clef, to circumnavigate Chomp's dodge vs an attack, the Clef player simply waits for Dig to finish, then hit it with Moonblast / Ice Beam.

Clef is very reliant on Meteor Beam to have an offensive presence, though. Otherwise, its offenses are only marginally better than Meganium's (and it gets blasted to dust by Magearna anyway).

This is true to a degree. Clefable loses Life Orb and Expert Belt in this meta, and will now need setup more than ever to achieve certain damage thresholds. However, comparing Clefable to Meganium just by stat numbers alone is not sound (btw, 83 to 95 is not as insignificant as you think it is, especially in a game as 3rd party heavy as ZA PvP is). Clef has exponentially better coverage and a much better STAB type, letting Clef get away with just an average SpA stat. Having Grass be your STAB in a meta as Grass-resist-infested as this one is, is not great. Let's not forget that Meganium needs plus power to use Solar Beam effectively, and if it's doing that in base form, that's taking away from its mega evolution. So that Solar Beam better be killing something. Otherwise, you're wasting your time.

The reason I think Magearna just completely outclasses Clefable is because DESPITE Clef's access to Meteor Beam where Magearna doesn't have it, and Magearna's Ground-weakness, is because having the strongest Fairy-type move in the meta, plus excellent coverage for common weaknesses in just two moves means Magearna matches up a lot better into the metagame at large.

Like, looking at a Fleur Cannon/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast set, the number of targets that can hit Magearna super-effectively without ALSO risking a Supereffective hit on themselves is minimal, basically boiling down to , , , and . Magearna can be pretty freeform with its fourth move as a result. Calm Mind is probably going to be the staple fourth slot to boost Magearna's power and offset the downside of Fleur Cannon (while also helping keep Fire-type attacks at bay), but it does have other options. Steel Beam for a secondary nuke, Energy Ball, Solar Beam or Petal Dance to crush Golurk, Power Gem to threaten every remaining non-Emboar Fire-type, Psychic or Psyshock if it really hates Emboar that much, Substitute or Protect to try to keep incoming Earthquakes at bay, or even Reflect/Light Screen to support the team. There are a lot of options. And it's not reliant on Mega Evolving to be viable, either. It's never going to be able to do all of these at once, but because Magearna has these options and room to run them because of how well Fleur Cannon, Thunderbolt (or Volt Switch, if you're into that) and Focus Blast cover most of the metagame together, you can never quite be sure what the fourth move is.

Just so you're aware, Clefable's movepool is pretty damn vast. If it wanted to, Clef could also run Focus Blast to deal with Heatran and other Steel-types, with the added bonus of Meteor Beam to blast the Fire checks.

No sane Magearna player is dropping Calm Mind, btw. Fleur Cannon's SpA drop means without Calm Mind, you hit as hard as a wet napkin at -1 SpA, so all those 4th move options you listed objectively worsen your Magearna. I promise you, every good Magearna will be CM 3 Attacks. They're throwing otherwise.

This is unlike Clef, who isn't very strong without Meteor Beam's boost, meaning its supereffective hits aren't all that strong without it (unless it Mega Evolves), and more damningly, just plain thuds into every Steel-type in the metagame unless it gives up a crucial coverage slot, and generally just has a worse defensive typing outside of the lack of ground/fire weaknesses, with the latter not being all that troublesome considering that Fire in general just isn't a great type in this meta due to Garchomp almost undoubtedly going to be the ruler of the metagame.

I'm gonna throw a hot take: Steel/Fairy is a great typing, no one can deny that, but it's more exploitable than you think, and not as good a typing in ZA compared to the turn-based games. I've already mentioned the Ground weakness numerous times, but the Fire weakness is more significant than you're making it out to be. Is Garchomp likely going to be the best mon in the format? Absolutely, but Mega Skarmory, Mega Lucario Z, and Magearna will be up there, too. I can even see Excadrill putting in work and I roast that thing a lot. Garchomp will best Fire-types, yes, but it'll also appreciate having a Fire-type fallback to deal with other Steel-types with Heat Wave, especially Skarmory which Garchomp will struggle against even with Fire Blast. You need to look at the bigger picture. This meta will not just be about Garchomp, but also about Garchomp's checks, and that's where the Fire-types come in. They not only help Garchomp offensively, but defensively, too, coming in on Fairy and Ice moves aimed for Chomp.

Then why does Clefable get a pass? Its movement speed is only marginally faster than Magearna's (somehow, given its lower base speed stat), and Moonblast has the same slow projectile problem.

Marginally? Have you seen Clefable move in ZA? Its speed is nowhere near comparable to Magearna's. Clefable is among the upper-average when it comes to movement speed, while Magearna is among the slowest in the game. Seriously, it's not a fair comparison, and that middling speed has been a thorn in Magearna's side ever since it became legal. I can imagine without Shuca Berry, it's only going to feel worse for it.

Going by that logic, Chimecho (That's this: ) is a threat. Exact same SpA, similar coverage including access to Meteor Beam, and Psychic/Psyshock are generally better moves to have STAB on than Moonblast.

Clefable has one of the lowest attacking stats in use in the entire metagame. I looked it up, and it's tied for fourth lowest, only beating Meganium, Malamar and Meowstic, and tied with Chimecho.

Once again, like I mentioned with the Clef vs Meganium comparison, numbers aren't everything. Chimecho's coverage is noticeably worse than Clefable's, lacking BoltBeam and ways to deal with Steels.

 

[a blue banana]

Chimecho (That's this: )

You don’t have to be belittling, man. Treat other people with respect.