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[bdt2002]

I have a question the more experienced player base. Coming from a low ladder scrub- hey, I’m just saying my skill level as it is- am I the only one who finds Spikes to be a bit obnoxious in the current metagame? Or is that just me? To a point, my concerns also stretch to Stealth Rock, but for now I’m mainly just focused on Spikes. I don’t have enough experience to speak on whether or not Spikes is “broken”, but what I can say with a decent level of confidence is that Spikes seems to restrict creative team building at both the lower and higher levels of play rather than encourage creative team building.

What makes Spikes unique in Gen 5 compared to other generations isn’t the move itself, but how this is arguably one of the hardest generations to actually deal with the move without specifically addressing the core issues. Gen 5 has multiple spinblockers available and while some of them are significantly more viable for the role than others, often times you don’t even need to run a spinblocker to punish the opponent for trying to clear your hazards. Yes, you absolutely can still run things like Jellicent to great success, but if your team doesn’t need a spinblocker or if none of the best options synergize well with your core, you still have Gen 5’s improved options for contact punishing. The distribution of Rough Skin was increased here, as was Iron Barbs being introduced, and on top of that you have the Rocky Helmet which is a common item on multiple viable hazard setters. Couple this with the fact that the available options for viable Rapid Spin users can feel somewhat limited at times, and you start to realize that the hazard metagame and specifically Spikes stacking is massively skewed towards the hazard setters to the point where teams are better off running multiple Spikes-immune Pokémon, which isn’t strictly a problem on its own. After all, Gen 3 has a lot of these “Superman” structures. The problem is, the ever-looming threat of Stealth Rock makes those kinds of structures hard to justify when you need to spend valuable team slots accounting for Gen 5’s powerful offensive threats and the ease of stacking Spikes makes those Pokémon feel unbearable to play against sometimes.

This brings me to my other point. I already mentioned Rapid Spin, but the other available counterplay to Spikes isn’t exactly viable either. Magic Bounce users are rare as is being limited in what teams they fit on, and while Xatu can still U-Turn out of Tyranitar to avoid a Pursuit trap, the Tyranitar user can elect to try and play around this accordingly. Using Taunt to stop the opponent from setting up their hazards seems like it would be more consistent, and it definitely is depending on your Taunt user, but if your opponent suspects you clicking Taunt is too obvious not to do, depending on the state of the battle and what their hazards setter is, they may blindside you with something you’re not expecting. In fact, this just happened to me in a Gen 4 battle earlier today, where I used my leads Crobat’s Taunt on their Azelf expecting Stealth Rock only to get blasted by a Psychic to the face. (Note to self- don’t forget the Focus Sash next time.) Ultimately my issue is just how easy it is for Spikes to be set up and stacked in Gen 5 relative to the difficulty of playing and building around it. Magic Guard and Levitate Pokémon have it the best where they’re immune to Spikes without being weak to Stealth Rock, and those same Magic Guard Pokémon would likely feel far less oppressive if Spikes were out of the picture. I can promise you a lot less people would think, say, Reuniclus is broken if Spikes aren’t involved.

Edit: I almost forgot, I also want to shout out two Spikes users in particular who on their own are definitely not broken Pokémon but have specific traits that enhance their ability to set hazards to a potential unhealthy degree. Ferrothorn is in a unique spot with its typing where it can used on both Sand and Rain and also to where it can set up hazards and also Leech Seed, while we’re on the subject of Rapid Spin, and naturally has Iron Barbs built in to punish spinning away Ferrothorn’s moves. You’d be surprised to see how often people forget Rapid Spin works against Leech Seed. Meanwhile Skarmory is seen more on hyper offense and has gained some stock of its own with both Rocky Helmet and Custap Berry + Sturdy as a dedicated Spikes lead who can, pending Taunt, usually get its team off to a strong start and synergizes well with Jellicent and various offensive sweepers, though I’ve also seen Skarmory on bulky Sand teams on occasion.

 

[Monai]

Post

I have a question the more experienced player base. Coming from a low ladder scrub- hey, I’m just saying my skill level as it is- am I the only one who finds Spikes to be a bit obnoxious in the current metagame? Or is that just me? To a point, my concerns also stretch to Stealth Rock, but for now I’m mainly just focused on Spikes. I don’t have enough experience to speak on whether or not Spikes is “broken”, but what I can say with a decent level of confidence is that Spikes seems to restrict creative team building at both the lower and higher levels of play rather than encourage creative team building.

What makes Spikes unique in Gen 5 compared to other generations isn’t the move itself, but how this is arguably one of the hardest generations to actually deal with the move without specifically addressing the core issues. Gen 5 has multiple spinblockers available and while some of them are significantly more viable for the role than others, often times you don’t even need to run a spinblocker to punish the opponent for trying to clear your hazards. Yes, you absolutely can still run things like Jellicent to great success, but if your team doesn’t need a spinblocker or if none of the best options synergize well with your core, you still have Gen 5’s improved options for contact punishing. The distribution of Rough Skin was increased here, as was Iron Barbs being introduced, and on top of that you have the Rocky Helmet which is a common item on multiple viable hazard setters. Couple this with the fact that the available options for viable Rapid Spin users can feel somewhat limited at times, and you start to realize that the hazard metagame and specifically Spikes stacking is massively skewed towards the hazard setters to the point where teams are better off running multiple Spikes-immune Pokémon, which isn’t strictly a problem on its own. After all, Gen 3 has a lot of these “Superman” structures. The problem is, the ever-looming threat of Stealth Rock makes those kinds of structures hard to justify when you need to spend valuable team slots accounting for Gen 5’s powerful offensive threats and the ease of stacking Spikes makes those Pokémon feel unbearable to play against sometimes.

This brings me to my other point. I already mentioned Rapid Spin, but the other available counterplay to Spikes isn’t exactly viable either. Magic Bounce users are rare as is being limited in what teams they fit on, and while Xatu can still U-Turn out of Tyranitar to avoid a Pursuit trap, the Tyranitar user can elect to try and play around this accordingly. Using Taunt to stop the opponent from setting up their hazards seems like it would be more consistent, and it definitely is depending on your Taunt user, but if your opponent suspects you clicking Taunt is too obvious not to do, depending on the state of the battle and what their hazards setter is, they may blindside you with something you’re not expecting. In fact, this just happened to me in a Gen 4 battle earlier today, where I used my leads Crobat’s Taunt on their Azelf expecting Stealth Rock only to get blasted by a Psychic to the face. (Note to self- don’t forget the Focus Sash next time.) Ultimately my issue is just how easy it is for Spikes to be set up and stacked in Gen 5 relative to the difficulty of playing and building around it. Magic Guard and Levitate Pokémon have it the best where they’re immune to Spikes without being weak to Stealth Rock, and those same Magic Guard Pokémon would likely feel far less oppressive if Spikes were out of the picture. I can promise you a lot less people would think, say, Reuniclus is broken if Spikes aren’t involved.

Edit: I almost forgot, I also want to shout out two Spikes users in particular who on their own are definitely not broken Pokémon but have specific traits that enhance their ability to set hazards to a potential unhealthy degree. Ferrothorn is in a unique spot with its typing where it can used on both Sand and Rain and also to where it can set up hazards and also Leech Seed, while we’re on the subject of Rapid Spin, and naturally has Iron Barbs built in to punish spinning away Ferrothorn’s moves. You’d be surprised to see how often people forget Rapid Spin works against Leech Seed. Meanwhile Skarmory is seen more on hyper offense and has gained some stock of its own with both Rocky Helmet and Custap Berry + Sturdy as a dedicated Spikes lead who can, pending Taunt, usually get its team off to a strong start and synergizes well with Jellicent and various offensive sweepers, though I’ve also seen Skarmory on bulky Sand teams on occasion.

I don't personally agree with a lot of the assertions made here, but it's the general opinion of "spikes too strong" is held by a pretty big number of players, so I'll try to address it point by point rather than writing it off. At the end of the day Ferro is a really fucked up Pokemon so I get it.

but what I can say with a decent level of confidence is that Spikes seems to restrict creative team building at both the lower and higher levels of play rather than encourage creative team building.

This is a very subjective claim, and one that I think you could pretty easily level at other tiers with broken spikers like adv and SV. If you don't like it, then fair enough, but pretty much any top tier / good Pokemon "restricts" the team building options around it, and my opinion is that it's only problematic when it completely crowds out other options or is "unreasonably difficult" to handle, which I'll address based on the rest of your post.

What makes Spikes unique in Gen 5 compared to other generations isn’t the move itself, but how this is arguably one of the hardest generations to actually deal with the move without specifically addressing the core issues. Gen 5 has multiple spinblockers available and while some of them are significantly more viable for the role than others, often times you don’t even need to run a spinblocker to punish the opponent for trying to clear your hazards. Yes, you absolutely can still run things like Jellicent to great success, but if your team doesn’t need a spinblocker or if none of the best options synergize well with your core, you still have Gen 5’s improved options for contact punishing. The distribution of Rough Skin was increased here, as was Iron Barbs being introduced, and on top of that you have the Rocky Helmet which is a common item on multiple viable hazard setters.

There's a couple of weird assertions made here, and I'll try to argue against them.
- Spin blockers being too strong is almost a non starter. Our best is Jellicent, who is solid, and our options then taper off into like Gengar and Rotom-Normal? Who are hyper niche at best? Jellicent itself notoriously barely spin blocks Excadrill and can be beaten out by it, while it relies on pretty narrow teammates to beat out starmie more than once.
- Rough Skin / Iron Barbs / Rocky Helmet hints at the actual "problem," being Ferrothorns insane splashability and good matchup into nearly every Spinner. Rhelm Skarm is great too, but it's usually confined to very fat teams and can be played around with plenty of common options like Knock Off + Exca, Starmie virtually always spins at least once while being very threatening without the aforementioned Scarf Tar or maybe Alakazam. Sand balances also regularly carry plenty of anti fat tools to abuse skarm's slow pace and lack of natural recovery while styles like Rain and HO can blitz through depending on matchup. RHelm Chomp is OK but hardly on anyone's radar. If you want to make an argument about spikers and residual being too good, you should probably narrow your scope to ferrothorn

Couple this with the fact that the available options for viable Rapid Spin users can feel somewhat limited at times, and you start to realize that the hazard metagame and specifically Spikes stacking is massively skewed towards the hazard setters to the point where teams are better off running multiple Spikes-immune Pokémon, which isn’t strictly a problem on its own. After all, Gen 3 has a lot of these “Superman” structures. The problem is, the ever-looming threat of Stealth Rock makes those kinds of structures hard to justify when you need to spend valuable team slots accounting for Gen 5’s powerful offensive threats and the ease of stacking Spikes makes those Pokémon feel unbearable to play against sometimes.

Superman structures are hardly weak to Stealth Rocks? The term usually includes being resistant to SR and residual too. I think you accidentally alluded to another solution to Spike Stacking + cleaners balance, which is just hitting them with "Gen 5's powerful offensive threats." Pokemon such as Terrakion, Garchomp, Thundyt, and Conk can put tremendous pressure on spikers and are a viable playstyle outside of Spikes offense/bulky off.

this is memes man come on

This brings me to my other point. I already mentioned Rapid Spin, but the other available counterplay to Spikes isn’t exactly viable either. Magic Bounce users are rare as is being limited in what teams they fit on, and while Xatu can still U-Turn out of Tyranitar to avoid a Pursuit trap, the Tyranitar user can elect to try and play around this accordingly. Using Taunt to stop the opponent from setting up their hazards seems like it would be more consistent, and it definitely is depending on your Taunt user, but if your opponent suspects you clicking Taunt is too obvious not to do, depending on the state of the battle and what their hazards setter is, they may blindside you with something you’re not expecting. In fact, this just happened to me in a Gen 4 battle earlier today, where I used my leads Crobat’s Taunt on their Azelf expecting Stealth Rock only to get blasted by a Psychic to the face. (Note to self- don’t forget the Focus Sash next time.)

Ultimately my issue is just how easy it is for Spikes to be set up and stacked in Gen 5 relative to the difficulty of playing and building around it. Magic Guard and Levitate Pokémon have it the best where they’re immune to Spikes without being weak to Stealth Rock, and those same Magic Guard Pokémon would likely feel far less oppressive if Spikes were out of the picture. I can promise you a lot less people would think, say, Reuniclus is broken if Spikes aren’t involved.

This is pretty much the core of the issue, and it's a valid take to not like spikes spam. But I would encourage you to learn how to actually play around spikers more thoroughly, as you listed pretty meme options compared to just like, Exca + Rotom and beat Ferrothorn to death.

Edit. Meanwhile Skarmory is seen more on hyper offense and has gained some stock of its own with both Rocky Helmet and Custap Berry + Sturdy as a dedicated Spikes lead who can, pending Taunt, usually get its team off to a strong start and synergizes well with Jellicent and various offensive sweepers, though I’ve also seen Skarmory on bulky Sand teams on occasion.

Skarm is absolutely a fat or bulky option, skarm jelli is really rare outside of ladder.

 

[bdt2002]

I don't personally agree with a lot of the assertions made here, but it's the general opinion of "spikes too strong" is held by a pretty big number of players, so I'll try to address it point by point rather than writing it off. At the end of the day Ferro is a really fucked up Pokemon so I get it.

This is a very subjective claim, and one that I think you could pretty easily level at other tiers with broken spikers like adv and SV. If you don't like it, then fair enough, but pretty much any top tier / good Pokemon "restricts" the team building options around it, and my opinion is that it's only problematic when it completely crowds out other options or is "unreasonably difficult" to handle, which I'll address based on the rest of your post.

There's a couple of weird assertions made here, and I'll try to argue against them.
- Spin blockers being too strong is almost a non starter. Our best is Jellicent, who is solid, and our options then taper off into like Gengar and Rotom-Normal? Who are hyper niche at best? Jellicent itself notoriously barely spin blocks Excadrill and can be beaten out by it, while it relies on pretty narrow teammates to beat out starmie more than once.
- Rough Skin / Iron Barbs / Rocky Helmet hints at the actual "problem," being Ferrothorns insane splashability and good matchup into nearly every Spinner. Rhelm Skarm is great too, but it's usually confined to very fat teams and can be played around with plenty of common options like Knock Off + Exca, Starmie virtually always spins at least once while being very threatening without the aforementioned Scarf Tar or maybe Alakazam. Sand balances also regularly carry plenty of anti fat tools to abuse skarm's slow pace and lack of natural recovery while styles like Rain and HO can blitz through depending on matchup. RHelm Chomp is OK but hardly on anyone's radar. If you want to make an argument about spikers and residual being too good, you should probably narrow your scope to ferrothorn

Superman structures are hardly weak to Stealth Rocks? The term usually includes being resistant to SR and residual too. I think you accidentally alluded to another solution to Spike Stacking + cleaners balance, which is just hitting them with "Gen 5's powerful offensive threats." Pokemon such as Terrakion, Garchomp, Thundyt, and Conk can put tremendous pressure on spikers and are a viable playstyle outside of Spikes offense/bulky off.


This is pretty much the core of the issue, and it's a valid take to not like spikes spam. But I would encourage you to learn how to actually play around spikers more thoroughly, as you listed pretty meme options compared to just like, Exca + Rotom and beat Ferrothorn to death.


Skarm is absolutely a fat or bulky option, skarm jelli is really rare outside of ladder.

A few things I wanted to mention since I agree with pretty much everything here. Looking back at my post, some things were poorly phrased:

• When I made it sound like spinblockers were too strong, I said that with the notion that the more experienced playerbase may have more input than I do. I think we can all agree Jellicent is indeed the best spinblocker, but I must have been under the impression the other options were better than I made them sound like. So in a way, my hunch that more experienced players had more ball knowledge was… kind of right? …no, seriously, have the non-Jellicent spinblockers always been underperforming?
• Superman structures and their measure of viability against Stealth Rock is something that’s been hard for me to judge for a while now. On one hand, Stealth Rock setters aren’t in short supply at all and many of those setters have options to help with some of Superman’s most common pieces, but at the same time, I can’t exactly argue with anything you said. This may be a result of me frequently getting the Gen 3 and post-Gen 3 definitions of Superman mixed up fairly often. Must be force of habit, I guess.
• It seems like after reading your response that my problem I have with contact punishing Rapid Spin (and Leech Seed, to some extent) might just be a Ferrorthorn problem. And a skill issue in my end. I had a feeling that might be the case. In regards to Skarmory, the one thing I will say is that when I said “Skarmory is better on offense”, I wasn’t saying that in such a way to try and diminish Skarmory’s defensive strengths that allow it to succeed on bulkier teams too. This might be one of those situations where I just have to play the game more and learn for myself, honestly.

You had mentioned that I accidentally alluded to a possible solution to my own problem, also. I hadn’t realized I did that. The issue I’ve ran into in the past that’s kept me stuck in the depths of low ladder “bad at the game” level is that I can sometimes struggle with getting those threats onto the field to deal with the hazard setters in the first place. Maybe I just need to get better at pivoting? My whole point I’m trying to make is, your post was informative and helpful.

 

[ohko by scald]

Thoughts on cb ferro? Like I know it's not exactly good, but it's super fun to use. Clicking Bulldoze only for the Heatran coming in to have air balloon sucks, but I could see cb ferro as a Heatran lure to enable for example Volcarona.

 

[Finchinator]

Thoughts on cb ferro? Like I know it's not exactly good, but it's super fun to use. Clicking Bulldoze only for the Heatran coming in to have air balloon sucks, but I could see cb ferro as a Heatran lure to enable for example Volcarona.

The issue really is fit. If you’re exhausting a team slot on Ferrothorn, but investing fully in attack and Choice Band, you still need to use other slots for entry hazards, potentially checking BW cornerstones like Rain Hydro and Specs Draco, etc. — you lose the bulk and utility of the conventional set.

I wouldn’t try this seriously due to this, but there’s novelty and one-off lure appeal there. Similar to SD Ferro, which has some funny interactions against HippoClef, NP Recover Celebi, and utility Gliscor games. Isn’t really something that is too serious sadly, but you can justify it and build a somewhat consistent team if you really want to.

 

[peng]

Helped a team for SPL again this year but we got knocked out, sad!

Just wanted to point out some trends that have been interesting to me this year. Even among "standard" "boring" teams there are re-inventions of the meta staples constantly.

Rocky Helmet
9 appearances 2024 -> 14 appearances 2025 -> 17 appearances 2025 (so far)
Feels like an obvious one from this SPL - helmet has been kinda everywhere. Normally this has only been common on Skarmory and Slowbro, but we've seen it extended to Rotom-Wash, Starmie, Cresselia, Hippowdon, and Magnezone this tournament. Lots of useful applications for Rocky Helmet (messes with spinners, Uturn scarfers, helps Pursuit-weaks chip Tyranitar etc), but its particularly good right now as a way to flip the Conkeldurr MU. Rocky Helmet Magnezone is an interesting one too, giving Magnezone some utility beyond just trapping (makes good use of the defensive typing into Dragonite, punishes ScarfRachi even if it U-turns, etc).

Custap Berry (mostly on Tyranitar)
2 appearances 2024 -> 3 appearances 2025 -> 8 appearances 2026 (so far)
Gradually decreasing usage of Focus Blast across Alakazam, Reuniclus, and Thundurus-T over the last few years means Tyranitar can drop Chople Berry more often and run some interesting item choices. We've seen more CBTar than usual this year, but the bigger impact has come from Custap Berry. The idea here is that Tyranitar is frequently left at low HP, and Custap Berry allows you turn that death fodder into a single time revenge killer to many of the tier's top threats with access to Crunch, Rock Slide, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Superpower, and Thunder Wave. We've also seen a lot of Custap Stealth Rock, which can Pursuit Starmie and then lay up a free SR on the following turn. Custap is particularly strong into the pairing of Latios + Alakazam, with Tyranitar often chipped into Custap range by Latios + hazards, but then getting a cheap Crunch/Pursuit into Alakazam lategame. Other Custap users we've seen are Landorus-T (can be both a rocker and a ScarfDrill / Chomp / Dnite rkiller) and Jellicent (can beat Starmie with Modest Shadow Ball).

Landorus-T moving to Specially defensive OR Scarf
It seems like Max Speed Lefties Landorus-T is kinda... dead? Its been usurped by two sets, on two completely opposite sides of the spectrum - SDef, or good old-fashioned Choice Scarf. Both of these are adaptations towards offensive Psychics and Volcarona. Compared to Naive LandoT, SDef gains a favourable MU in mirror against opposing fast Landorus-T, tanks Meteors, checks Volcarona, checks non-Ice Alakazam can tank moves from Starmie etc etc etc, meaning it actually fits on a lot. This set has even been seeing some usage as a slow pivot / SR lead on Hyper Offense, cutting into some of Garchomp's usage. There are trade-offs to running this bulk - being slower than Excadrill can be pretty dire, as well as Breloom, Heatran, and so on. On the other side of the coin, Scarf Lando-T is also seeing a ton of usage, as it outruns Modest Volc at +1, and is a good punish to LO Alakazam. Naive Lando-T still has some important traits - its much better into things like Protect Heatran and Excadrill, which annoy Scarf and can outrun SDef sets, but these applications increasingly feel less important than checking the meta defining special attackers.

Physically defensive Excadrill
Excadrill has a crazy base stat spread that makes it excellent for EV experimentation, and one that we've seen pop up recently is physically defensive on sand. PDef Excadrill has been around before as a niche wless/sun stall spinner, but never made a serious metagame impact. In 2026, we've begun to see it pop up more frequently in order to give Excadrill more favourable MUs into the Spikers - Skarmory and Ferrothorn. Skarmory in particular really struggles to win the hazard war when its Brave Bird is turned from a 6HKO to a 9HKO. Bonus upsides - not getting OHKOd by Superpower Tyranitar in the Custap era, and being marginally better into Outrage-locked dragons.

Drop-off in Colbur Berry, return to Choiced
Colbur Berry activations per year: 8 times in 2024 -> 6 times in 2025 -> once in 2026 (so far)
Even Latios, the best Pokemon in the game, changes in the way its used from year to year. Choiced Latios have been historically dominant, but dropped off a little in recent years as we found value in unchoiced, Colbur Berry sets. That seems to be reverting to norm a bit, with a large majority of Latios in this tournament being Choiced once again (when counting revealed sets: 22 Specs, 10 Scarf, 8 unchoiced). Interestingly, Colbur Berry has only activated once in 50 games this tournament, indicating that even when brought, its maybe not finding the same value it once had. In my personal experience I have found myself building more and more with Specs this year especially - a lot of that is due to the threat of Conkeldurr but it also owns any kind of Pursuit-less fat team. Also just very high on Trick right now.

-----

Fun stuff I liked building with this year below. Scooters ended with an incredibly based 100% Lati@s usage btw


Brine week 2
Protect Terrakion + Spikes
Adaptation of a Fakes team. Built this for brine week 2 and we got bopped by HWish + LO Scizor, but the concept felt strong. Basically, lots of Terrakion rkillers in the current metagame are choiced - I've already pointed out Specs Latios being very prominent once again, but also Scarf Lando-T, Scarf Jirachi, and rain running Scarf/Band Scizor. This is a dream metagame for Protect Terrakion, which gets to call the bluff of those U-turn Scarfers especially and get the opportunity to fire off free LO CCs if the opponent gets cute. A fun micro-synergy was Leech Seed Protect Ferrothorn + Protect Terrakion, which could let your cheese out of some late game situations.


Unused
Weather clear Heatran + Conk
A lot of people had a similar concept at roughly the same time: what if Volc Conk could run a different fire type? This has been used in some other tours before, and Franco did a Magma Taunt Heatran version in week 9. I thought Sunny Heatran with Conkeldurr felt strong, as its weakest MU is probably aggro rain. Magma Heatran does some other interesting things like trapping Jellicent to let Starmie spin more freely. I think these Heatran Conk teams are kinda interesting and worth messing around with some more


Brine week 3
HP Fire Rotom-W + LO Focus Blast Alakazam
Will just mention this one briefly cos its obviously a very established 6, just a set combination I liked. We really wanted to use LO Focus Blast + HP Ice Alakazam cos its the sand balance shredder and I think we faced Gary this week, who spammed a lot of Heatran Keldeo Celebi Sand stuff. Issue with the set is just consistency - it can end up in spots where it needs to land Focus Blasts into Ferrothorn which is super dire. Normally you'd just use Wisp Rotom-W here but 1) it can miss 2) burnt Ferro can still paralyze Alakazam lategame if you miss a Focus Blast on it... So leading HP Fire Rotom-W with some investment felt like a rly good way to take loads of pressure off of Focus Blast accuracy. Tiny thing but it tested really well.

 

[Posho]

I'm kinda back in action again and I wanted to do so through the gen I'm most in love with. A lot has changed since I last stepped into the BW fields, and I'm not exactly unhappy with the state of the meta. No mon feels disproportionally threatening, but it is true that the team-building in this tier is insanely demanding. It's easy to slap the 6 most viable Pokémon into your team, but there's a certain nuance to BW building that doesn't allow you to get away with subpar choices.

I've been larping quite a lot on the BW discord about how much I despise Spikes, especially now given the psyhic guarders are much more comfortable than ever since Cloyster and gems were vanished. Honestly, it's really hard to ascertain where the threat lies. On the one hand, spikes are insanely powerful because Rapid Spin users aren't as reliable in their roles, requiring you to play aggressively to comfortably position yourself to remove hazards. On the other hand, Magic Guard is insanely powerful in a tier filled to the brim with passive damage: hazards, 12% burn, sand, hail.

I've also realized how insane Rotom-Wash is in this meta. Gems really helped the guy become slightly more annoying. It was possible to threaten it back then with the likes of Gem Lati, Lando or Keld. Now, most mons in the tier don't directly threaten it other than Lati@s, Celebi, Amoonguss or the rare MB Exca, which none can directly switch into it unless they wanna eat wisp or volt switch into Ttar lol. I'd say the only mons that put a stop to him is either Breloom or Gastrodon, but I haven't seen them much.

I'm also sad to announce that rain fucking sucks. Poli losing Hypnosis is kinda big and I just don't like how it takes up a slot. It's really hard to keep rocks away with tenta or starmie, so most of the time the weather geniuses are put on a timer.

Anyways, as I said I'm not exactly unhappy because I don't think BW is unplayable, but I kind of wish for some sort of change coming into the future. I feel performing some tests could help the tier branch out new teambuilding options.

Also, can you keep Clefable's stinky musty ugly ass out my tier? Thank you

 

[harshest]

Hello,

I have decided to make a post on some sets I think are underutilised in the current BW2 metagame - they won’t all be the most creative ideas, but I have been working around each for the past year or so


Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Force
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin

Everyone knows Excadrill is a top Pokemon in every sense of the word - resilient typing, very customisable and most importantly, will be useful in any matchup you play. Popular teams in today’s metagame take two approaches to sets: choice scarf or leftovers + swords dance.

I have always personally disliked choice scarf, I like my teams to be sturdy and have the option to go the distance in a longer game. Not to say the set doesn’t have its place, but it requires an aggressive approach to building where I would rather apply that to the playing side.

On the other hand, swords dance is obviously a fantastic resource Excadrill can use to pressure slower teams. This is well suited to having a durable long-term gameplan which I am a fan of. Whilst great against slower teams, I find myself rarely taking advantage of swords dance versus more high-tempo sand, rain and weatherless styles - its a really useful set, but I started to re-consider the possibility of compensating with the rest of the team to open up other options in Excadrill’s toolkit. I think the ORAS metagame gives quite a good insight for how this can be done.

Stealth rocks are the best move in the game, Excadrill is a versatile Pokemon - why not put the two together? Conventional wisdom says your stealth rock setter should beat the rapid spinners in a tier. Since Excadrill is weak to Starmie, Tentacruel and itself, this seems to be breaking the rules. I would argue for a different approach - your stealth rock setter should be able to pressure rapid spinners OR you should structure your team to gain momentum from the spin. In these regards, Excadrill can get the job done well in my experience. With its great typing and capacity to go for a defensive spread, it finds a lot of opportunities to set the rocks - I think it especially shines in psyspam matchups where your Excadrill can find entries versus many members of the team and take a hit. Like I said, swords dance isn’t a move you would click every matchup, whereas stealth rocks are going to be valuable no matter what you face.

Should this be the most common set? No. Does it deserve more use than it sees now? Absolutely.



Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
- Protect
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Ice Fang / Knock Off / Toxic

Onto my other favourite ground type with two prominent sets. Traditionally, Gliscor has either run a swords dance set or opted for being the stealth rock setter for a team in recent years. Both sets are incredible at their job - no surprise considering Gliscor has the most longevity in the tier alongside Reuniclus. This is my favourite trait a Pokemon can have, but I always found myself thinking there is more room to abusing Gliscor than these two avenues. Knock Off is typically used in place of U-Turn on a defensive stealth rock set. I think it’s a big opportunity cost, considering Gliscor can be a blanket check that can gain momentum on so much of the tier with U-Turn.

The focus on this set is to use Gliscor as a momentum grabber with fantastic longevity - that is where it shines the most for me. Knock Off, Ice Fang and Toxic all have tremendous utility in different matchups if you can afford to creatively shift stealth rocks to another Pokemon. Definitely worth considering a set like this for your teams.



Jirachi @ Custap Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Healing Wish

This Jirachi is onto a similar theme of momentum grabbing. This metagame is no stranger to Jirachi on weatherless teams - it is arguably the defining Pokemon of the style. Most that I see opt for choice scarf, which has amazing utility and is one of those rare cases of a Pokemon actually not minding the price of being choice - locked. It is the most popular set for good reason.

I started exploring this set just to try making my HO teams more durable where I could, and I began really enjoying the result. A slow Jirachi U-Turn is amazing to bring in big-hitters - I often paired this with slower threats like Mamoswine and Choice Band Breloom which are always Pokemon which benefit from a pivot like this. Stealth rocks again have the best utility ever, and I was regularly being put into Custap range to pop a healing wish - turning many games around with this strategy.

I will admit - a lot of the strength of this set comes from obfuscation - the opponent doesn’t know my Jirachi lacks trick, and only has the easily resisted U-Turn and Iron Head. It would lose a lot of potency if they were aware. The good thing is Jirachi’s move pool is so vast that you can afford to cheat in ways like this from time to time. Jirachi will forever be a Pokemon we owe more exploration, but regardless of set - the custap healing wish combo is always going to be valuable in-game.



Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Fire Punch
- Superpower / Ice Punch / Dragon Claw etc.

Wow Choice Band Dragonite, how original. What I wanted to say about this set is a more controversial opinion - I actually think it’s better than dragon dance. It pressures in any matchup imaginable, has nice defensive utility, has a more versatile gameplan, and of course - the element of surprise. There will obviously be many teams that benefit from the lategadme threat which dragon dance can provide, but if you want to step on the opponents throat from turn 1, this can be the superior choice. Id also make the case that choice band can fit onto more styles of team - just by virtue of a reduced need for hazard control and preserving multiscale in general.



Starmie @ Choice Specs
Ability: Analytic
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Psychic

Starmie is one of my favourite Pokemon in the tier, because I love rapid spin and am obsessed with managing hazards. In 95% of cases, you will need the rapid spin - especially on a rain team which lends itself to Starmie taking on that role. In the 5% you dont - just try and use this set. Starmie has one of the most incredible move pools, an amazing speed tier, and synergises fantastically with Politoed and Latios in pressuring to ‘win’ the weather war. Nothing can safely switch in, and this set is extremely difficult to trap without really taxing their Tyranitar. It definitely deserves more use than we see - but is admittedly difficult to accommodate for.



Latias (F) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Roost
- Healing Wish

Conversely, I’ll move onto a set I find very easy to fit on teams. Many will know I am not the biggest fan of Latios / Latias. I don’t enjoy teams which lack rapid spin, unless they have incredible longevity with the likes of Gliscor / Reuniclus / Skarmory / Clefable. This set helps to offset some of my concerns on traditional psyspam structures. Obviously Latios / Latias have the best speed / typing / ability combination in the tier which makes them easily splashable. The introduction of healing wish can really benefit less hazard-resilient teams. You can allow Latias to take up its defensive responsibilities, and when no longer useful, give a much-needed second life to a teammate which can really change the game around. This is useful in any game (assuming they dont know your set at preview)

Other sets I am enjoying and are seeing increased use: Stealth Rock Heatran; TWave Rotomw; Knock Off Landorus; SpAtk Kyurem-Black

Thanks for reading - a big shoutout to all the amazing BW minds on this website

 

[IUPLC]

Love the CBNite take, surely it can be a neat pick on more balanced teams for both its offensive (strong priority, big Outrage) and defensive (tanks non-Ice Volc) capabilities.

That Jirachi set is heat too: I imagine it can free up SR from Garchomp partners if you want.

 

[Posho]

Disclaimer, almost none of what I share here I think is very original, but these are sets I've grown fond of.


Tornadus (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Tailwind

Someone used this guy against me on ladder, and I've grown to love it quite a lot. In an era where we're seeing a lot of Scarf Exca/Lati and Kazam, Tornadus hardly finds a way to shine even though on paper Specs/Shark Beak sets are really good. Rain has very much taken a toll lately and relying that much on setting in up for Torn to be effective throughout the game is quite the hassle. Hazard removal has become insanely harder as well, and I always find myself on a timer when it comes to the rain genies / dnite in rain.

So, I found Scarf Torn to be quite a pleasant surprise. One of the coolest things it provides is catching Alakazams off guard with U-Turn effectively breaking their Focus Sash or you can also catch Scarf Lando lead off guard with HP Ice. Against opposing rains with Scarf Keld and Lati it tends to be a huge threat in late game stages. Weatherless HO also hates to see this guy coming because their fastest threats tend to be Starmie and Scarf Jirachi, which both get outsped by Scarf Torn and the latter doesn't like coming into him.

Obviously, the sand match-up is the one thing that's hard to overcome by this set, but that's always been the issue with running choiced Torn anyways.

Some cool companions:
with wisp dbond (peng, you're so fucking cool for this) gets rid of/cripples ttar so you can hurricane without being punished
specs, which pressures steels / ttar into taking dracos
hp grass fucks rotom over.


Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 208 HP / 48 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Pursuit
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
- Ice Beam

Bulky Scarf Ttar is kinda cool. The main attractive of this set is that without crits you're guaranteed to trap non colbur latios. I made this set for a team that was specifically kinda vulnerable to specs latios, because no bulk meant that I was at the mercy of a 50/50 to kill it. This bulk on ttar is also nice because from full kazam and thund have a 50% chance to kill it with focus blast, and the same goes for +1 Timid insect plate Volcarona. Reuniclus also can't kill with unboosted focus blast after rocks.

Obviously, this is not meant to be a set made to deal with those threats, but the extra insurance against them can come in handy sometimes. I don't think it's 100% reliable, but it worked for me there and gave me some wiggle room.

Ok, now here come two Latias sets.


Latias (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Recover
- Trick
- Dragon Pulse

This one was specifically made for a team that wanted a glue mon that could put a stop to set up sweepers, as well as providing yellow magic for my Reuniclus to wreak havoc. Last move, is pretty flexible depending on what your team needs. You can run Ice Beam if you're scared of Gliscors or Chompers. This one had Dpulse for Kyurem Black.

for reference, this is how the team looks:



Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Thunder Wave
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover

Similar to the last one, but this one is meant to paralyze jirachis and ttars, as well as chipping down ferro/sciz so Reuniclus has an easier time late game. It is quite a neat set that I also found unexpectedly useful against HO, because if Sciz takes a bit of damage the rest of the usual HO structures just crumble. IB beats loom, chomp, dnite. Twave screws volcarona, dnite, scarf jirachi. Also, since it's not a common set, some SpDef Landorus just stay in and take on an ice beam, which is really neat for late games with rocks up.

I think overall Latias is such a cool glue mon for some teams and provides cool utilities. I'm usually not a fan of do-nothing walls that are just there to stop certain threats. I like that these Latias sets have such a big impact in the overall development of games.


LASTLY, since I've been playing a lot of BW ladder, I ran multiple times into , which I believe to be one of the most effective team comps in the current metagame. As I said before, Rotom-Wash got so much value now that gems and sleep are gone, meaning that it is more free to stay in and spread status. However, I noticed one clear weakness that those teams possess, and that's where my friend comes into play:


Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide / X-Scissor

Scarf Mold Breaker Exca is really cool. I think Sand Force is really nice too, but I hate having to aggressively predict Rotom-Wash or Latios to come in, losing a lot of momentum in exchange. There are barely any mons in the tier that can threaten Rotom-W with a KO with a super effective move.

This set is obviously not threatening from the get go. Its main hurdle will always be gliscor/lando and skarm, and even the rare Brelooms or Celebis that are roaming about. Usually I design teams around getting rid of those guys, which usually implies placing a surprise ice move, or wisp in the team. After that, Exca just goes haywire. There have been times where I've been able to late game sweep by just spamming Earthquake. You do give up damage by not running sand force, but in exchange you get to use eq against a lot of common bw team comps without facing much punishment.

Also, random shoutouts to the BW ladder demons

These guys are always running the same team, but always give me a run for my money with their insane plays