Announcement National Dex and Pokémon Champions Discussion Thread

[TastieGaming]

Do you want to play with the new Pokémon? You have Champions OU, and you still have Legends Z-A OU.

I won't be toxic or rude about this, but I just want to point out that this goes against the very idea of National Dex. As the Sheistlord himself said, National Dex was created because of Dexit. Saying "Go play the other tiers if you want to use the new stuff" explicitly goes against the whole reason this tier exists. It's like saying "Do you want to use Raging Bolt on a sun team? Go play SV OU.". No, I want to use Raging Bolt on the sun team with Zard Y. Like I said before, if someone wants to use a Mega Feraligatr and Ferrothorn core together, National Dex is and should be the place to do so.

I think calling people names or insulting people based off mental capacity is boring, yucky, and fundamentally against the spirit of Pokemon. Then a number of y'all try to deflect or justify being mean, some of y'all appear to be smogon leadership. That sucks. We can form arguments and share ideas but why be ableist or cruel? if you're hosting a community, especially one welcoming to children, you have an obligation to be a role model and show kindness. If a discussion around gaming gets you so heated it's hard to control your words please take a breather, listen to some music, or anything else. I understand this comment may be removed for being non topical but nothing has made me lose interest in wanting to help a format that I've found to enjoy than this. :( please be kind to one another.

I heavily, heavily agree. Can't we be a happy community? Do we all have to act like we're better than someone because of one point or another? I get competitive Pokemon is a heated topic but guys, let's act civil about this...

 

[Pf987]

My hope is that there is at least an existing format that adds the direct power buffs/nerfs to moves, the new megas, and leaves it at that. I do NOT want the only way to play with the new megas (or nerfed protect, buffed FI, or so have you) to be with the dogshit changes champions made to dumb the game down. ie: taunt failing on mons without status moves, spin and knock going through if the user dies, the pp getting flattened to 20 absolute max. I really don't care what the ladder version is, I just want to be able to get the best of both worlds in draft. I do think it would be extremely stupid not to implement the megas at bare minimum to natdex, and i feel the bp/accuracy changes to mostly the signatures are a good slam dunk as well.

 

[Pf987]

OFFICIAL SHEISTLORD STATEMENT ON THE FUTURE AND IDENTITY OF THE GREATEST TIER IN POKEMON

As someone heavily involved in the natdex community who has been maining this tier since the very start from the zarel twitter post to right now many years later, Ive been involved in both the casual side through the room and ladder along with the competitive side managing and playing in countless team tours, circuit and voting in every suspect we do along with actively developing the metagame and creating new sets (who likes ghost z pech and av mola? no thank yous required). I have some strong opinions on this. The identity of natdex has been somewhat vague and weirdly defined for a long time but basically it boils down to trading sun and moon (the last real national dex game) mons and moves forward into all the dexit games.​

Its not possible to discuss national dex without talking about the reason it was created in the first place; dexit. Its no coincidence that dexit coincided with the first game to have DLC monetization, the pokemon shareholders and corporate overlords decided that they would take things that in any previous game would have been base game content and lock them behind a DLC pay wall to scam kids out of more money, any excuse or alleged reason for dexit is a lie, it was never about competitive balance which is clearly obvious by the fact they have added some of the most broken and overtuned mons to ever exist at the same time as dexit happened. National dex was a response to this, a way to keep the true spirit of tpokemon alive, as they say "you gotta catch them all" and that means all of them, not just the ones that get randomly chosen by this fraud of a company, the entire point of smogon is that we dont like the way the official metas are balanced so we have created out own that we balance ourselves and natdex is the purest example of that. The purpose of natdex is and always has been to provide a place where people can play with any combination of pokemon that they want and this is how it should be going forward so im going to propose what I think is best for the tier:

- All new mons and items (mega stones) from champions should be added, there should never be an official pokemon unavailable in natdex

- The tier should not be split into two ladders, this is a huge mistake and will severely scuf the implementation of this, all changes should be made to the official natdex tiers.

- Move changes such as pp nerfs or the lowering of hax (iron head flinch nerf to 20%, moonblast spa drop to 10%) should all be added, this follows how we have always tiered national dex such as changing battle bond gren to the new version when ash gren got retconned in SV

- All previous moves and items should be kept, this includes hidden power on any mon that can naturally learn it (gen 7 and earlier) along with things like return that were phased out

- New mechanics should be added and updated, this includes things like mega turn priority and changes to fake out (not sure if this is a bug but there is some weirdness there) along with the freeze, paralysis and rest nerf and any other changes to how the game mechanics play out especially since a lot of these are reducing hax like no perma freeze

- We keep all current smogon clauses such as evasion, moody, etc and keep 6v6 singles, level 100 and no item clause as our base for the tier.

These changes should be implemented immediately following the conclusion of world cup, I believe all will be incredibly positive for our community which is by far one of the largest on smogon and we may even end up overtaking current gen OU in player count with this since that tier is very stale, as active community members and people who genuinely care for our tier and want to see it grow this is the right move to make since its overwhelmingly what the community wants and would massively grow our tier in popularity.

TL:DR we are the future, natdex should always include all mons and forms with the latest mechanics, and adding this will be massively beneficial to the tier as well as overwhelmingly popular amongst the casual and competitive playerbase.

I have a question as a primarily draft player. Would sundowning g9 natdex ladder to make champs natdex delete challengable formats like draft? I would be livid if funny little tournaments and drafts got completely shafted by this, but I am not a ladder player so I don't really give a shit if the ladder is gone. As I said above, my worsr case scenario was a full champions mechanic port, but even if that happens, if g9 natdex draft stays I'll be content enough.

 

[Hovercat2475]

I want to preface this by saying I don't aim to get into tiering policy in this post (Why Natdex was made, whether these new megas have precedent to be added, etc) as I don't have the knowledge to really do so. In my opinion the new Champions megas should stay out of Natdex. Uphauling the metagame by adding a sizable chunk of new, very strong Pokemon with only a year left to ensure the metagame stabilizes feels like a very shaky decision. A decent amount of the pro-addition posts have the sentiment of "we should add them because it would be cool/I'm bored of the meta and want to shake things up", which I am largely not a fan of. I strongly believe the Natdex metagame is in a really enjoyable spot right now, and doesn't need any new additions to invigorate it. Tournaments recently have put on full display how much variety Pokemon, team-styles, and even items can have, and there isn't anything in particular that feels overbearing. Building is creative and fun, with lots of room to personalize and innovate. Personally, pushing the metagame further in this state is something I strongly look forward to over the course of this next year, and especially with Generation 10 on the horizon, is the path that I feel should be pushed towards.

 

[Runo]

Further more on the topic of discussion being derailed, I don't think it is wise to have a concrete opinion on matters regarding how to interpret champions mechanics and how NatDex moves get decided without deciding the fate of SV beforehand. Like we're getting too far ahead here. It would be much much easier to figure out how to implement Champions mechanics when SV and its tiering get addressed first. I implore leaders to figure out the setup they want to do regarding SV vs Champions so this thread can move on to the fun stuff.

To clarify on this post because I fear it might be getting misunderstood: The National Dex community must decide what they want to do with NatDex SV, there are only really a couple of viable options of what to do with it:

A - Run NatDex SV and Champions congruently (this would be weird without two ladders for each OU but still technically feasible, given enough support and time its possible that Champions or SV could naturally request a permaladder in the same vain as SS NatDex did)
B - End SV Early, Champions is the new flagship metagame and everything is retiered.
C - SV is overwritten by Champions, current tiering continues as normal
D - Do not implement Champions at all

How Gen 10 is addressed with these proposals, I don't think matters. The point is that any one of these options rectifies the issue of SV being unaddressed. Which I think is more important to figure out than possible issues with Winds and Waves / Gen 10.

When Gen 10 comes, I don't think there is necessarily anything that says we can't just move to the Winds and Waves if it has the classical PvP battling system that Smogon uses. At the same time I don't think there's anything that says we can't just have this identity/policy discussion again in a year when Winds and Waves finally does release. A lot can change in terms of information and public opinion within a year. Although if we did want this leeway to have a discussion about Gen 10 when it rolls around, probably don't do option C, it sounds like it would just lock NatDex into Champions permanently.

I do NOT want the only way to play with the new megas (or nerfed protect, buffed FI, or so have you) to be with the dogshit changes champions made to dumb the game down

I've seen derivatives of this take pop up a lot and I don't think it's a viable idea in any capacity. NatDex in policy really tries to avoid these high levels of arbitrariness like what you suggest. Most mechanics that exist in NatDex are technically justified in some shape or form. In situations that aren't technically justified, they are typically used to resolve mechanical conflicts (such as Z-moves and Dynamax not working on New and Dexited moves respective). I fail to see what technical justification one could use to justify not having most, if not all, of the champions mechanics while still keeping all of what you request. It's important for NatDex to use these technical justifications as an anchor instead of backsliding into more arbitrary decisions to keep NatDex as intuitive to play as possible and to differentiate it from the common petmod whos arbitrary decisions are so high that it acts as a barrier to entry (there is a reason most petmods are not respected as serious tiers).

 

[skrupi]

I'm reposting this without the link guess I'll just explain the tweet lol

If pre-champions pkmn operated on an EV and IV system and champions operates on an SP system with no EVs or IVs how would that play if they're implemented? Two different systems for stat calculation would be weird imo. Lmk.

 

[Enderwither02]

To give my own five cents on the matter, I personally think Champions should not be included in Nat Dex. I've largely viewed Nat Dex as a "what if" in terms of being able to continuously transfer Pokémon up from the mainline games specifically, and that's where Champions gets a little shaky for me: I do not view Champions as a mainline game. It's a spin-off title that's meant solely to be a silly "throw random things at each other and see what works faster" game, rather than something with a fleshed-out story and a proper full region of Pokémon and whatnot. It doesn't contribute to the main series, and thus I don't feel it should need to contribute to Nat Dex either.

Also, as has already been stated, we have maybe a year before we transition into Gen 10. To add in such a significant shake-up in terms of not only the roster, but the core mechanics of the game as well with so little time left to savor what we have for Gen 9 feels like an unfavorable move. Even if ongoing tournaments do not use Champions mechanics, that means even less time for the metagame to significantly develop after everything gets turned on its head from so many significant changes happening at once. It doesn't promote metagame exploration or anything of the sort, it just alienates the players who have adjusted to how Nat Dex is currently played, and expects them to adjust.

 

[TastieGaming]

I do not view Champions as a mainline game. It's a spin-off title that's meant solely to be a silly "throw random things at each other and see what works faster" game, rather than something with a fleshed-out story and a proper full region of Pokémon and whatnot. It doesn't contribute to the main series, and thus I don't feel it should need to contribute to Nat Dex either.

The entire marketing point of Champions is inviting more people to get into competitive Pokémon, not as a “random bs, go” simulator. It has core Pokémon mechanics and brings new changes to the competitive aspect of Pokémon, on top of being the new hub for competitive Pokémon. If you said this about Poketopia, then yes, obviously that game is completely different from mainline, despite adding in new Pokémon forms. But this is our new platform. Pokémon Company made this for competitive. Z-A wasn’t made for competitive Pokémon, we still made a tier for it anyways. Yes, you could say it had a story and is canon and such, but so does Poketopia, so it really isn’t proving anything when you say it doesn’t contribute to the mainline series. No, it doesn’t contribute to the main series games, but it affects competitive Pokémon and that is what Showdown was made for. That’s what we should base this around. If it affects competitive, it should always at least be considered to make a movepool change or a separate ladder.

I said it before and I’ll say it again, National Dex was created because of dexit, and as a place to play all forms and types of Pokémon freely. We should just make the separate tier for Champions and leave it at that.

 

[lyra__4]

I want to preface this by saying I don't aim to get into tiering policy in this post (Why Natdex was made, whether these new megas have precedent to be added, etc) as I don't have the knowledge to really do so. In my opinion the new Champions megas should stay out of Natdex. Uphauling the metagame by adding a sizable chunk of new, very strong Pokemon with only a year left to ensure the metagame stabilizes feels like a very shaky decision. A decent amount of the pro-addition posts have the sentiment of "we should add them because it would be cool/I'm bored of the meta and want to shake things up", which I am largely not a fan of. I strongly believe the Natdex metagame is in a really enjoyable spot right now, and doesn't need any new additions to invigorate it. Tournaments recently have put on full display how much variety Pokemon, team-styles, and even items can have, and there isn't anything in particular that feels overbearing. Building is creative and fun, with lots of room to personalize and innovate. Personally, pushing the metagame further in this state is something I strongly look forward to over the course of this next year, and especially with Generation 10 on the horizon, is the path that I feel should be pushed towards.

I would argue “we should add them because it would be cool/I'm bored of the meta and want to shake things up” is a pretty good/sufficient reason for there to be a NDOU champions as the main tier/add the new megas to NDOU. After all, NDOU is just a game (for fun), and since 90% of players agree they want to see the new megas added one way or another, the new megas should be added since that is (very clearly) what the community wants.

If you don’t agree with that and would rather NDOU remain the way it is that’s cool but unfortunately you’re in the very small 10% of players.

I do also feel that NDOU should have the new megas because it fits the identity of the tier (it is natdex it should have all the mons), but that point is moot. The tier exists to serve the players. If 90% of players want the new megas added but you don’t add them just to keep the tier stable and allow the metagame to develop more or something you’re missing the trees for the forest.

 

[lyra__4]

To clarify on this post because I fear it might be getting misunderstood: The National Dex community must decide what they want to do with NatDex SV, there are only really a couple of viable options of what to do with it:

A - Run NatDex SV and Champions congruently (this would be weird without two ladders for each OU but still technically feasible, given enough support and time its possible that Champions or SV could naturally request a permaladder in the same vain as SS NatDex did)
B - End SV Early, Champions is the new flagship metagame and everything is retiered.
C - SV is overwritten by Champions, current tiering continues as normal
D - Do not implement Champions at all

How Gen 10 is addressed with these proposals, I don't think matters. The point is that any one of these options rectifies the issue of SV being unaddressed. Which I think is more important to figure out than possible issues with Winds and Waves / Gen 10.

When Gen 10 comes, I don't think there is necessarily anything that says we can't just move to the Winds and Waves if it has the classical PvP battling system that Smogon uses. At the same time I don't think there's anything that says we can't just have this identity/policy discussion again in a year when Winds and Waves finally does release. A lot can change in terms of information and public opinion within a year. Although if we did want this leeway to have a discussion about Gen 10 when it rolls around, probably don't do option C, it sounds like it would just lock NatDex into Champions permanently.


I've seen derivatives of this take pop up a lot and I don't think it's a viable idea in any capacity. NatDex in policy really tries to avoid these high levels of arbitrariness like what you suggest. Most mechanics that exist in NatDex are technically justified in some shape or form. In situations that aren't technically justified, they are typically used to resolve mechanical conflicts (such as Z-moves and Dynamax not working on New and Dexited moves respective). I fail to see what technical justification one could use to justify not having most, if not all, of the champions mechanics while still keeping all of what you request. It's important for NatDex to use these technical justifications as an anchor instead of backsliding into more arbitrary decisions to keep NatDex as intuitive to play as possible and to differentiate it from the common petmod whos arbitrary decisions are so high that it acts as a barrier to entry (there is a reason most petmods are not respected as serious tiers).

I don’t see why option C precludes us from having any such discussion abt W&W. Can’t we just tie champions into SV? As in SV NDOU just has all the mons, moves and mechanics from all previous games up to and including champions at the time of release of W&W (basically just wtv SV NDOU has now + wtv is in champions until W&W releases.)

 

[BolTingBlazie]

To clarify on this post because I fear it might be getting misunderstood: The National Dex community must decide what they want to do with NatDex SV, there are only really a couple of viable options of what to do with it:

A - Run NatDex SV and Champions congruently (this would be weird without two ladders for each OU but still technically feasible, given enough support and time its possible that Champions or SV could naturally request a permaladder in the same vain as SS NatDex did)
B - End SV Early, Champions is the new flagship metagame and everything is retiered.
C - SV is overwritten by Champions, current tiering continues as normal
D - Do not implement Champions at all

I think B feels like the most reasonable to me, as champions has changed enough mechanics and moves to where it wouldn't resemble SV natdex at all. Doing this also keeps SV natdex separate as an old gen without any risk of it being overwritten.

You may not like the champions changes, but champions alters enough to where a new natdex tier would essentially feel like a new metagame and a new gen, alongside the new megas, and preserve SV natdex as an old gen. I don't believe it's worth erasing what already exists, but I do believe there should be a champions natdex tier, as essentially it feels a new gen, so moving on from SV natdex makes sense.

 

[Runo]

I don’t see why option C precludes us from having any such discussion abt W&W. Can’t we just tie champions into SV? As in SV NDOU just has all the mons, moves and mechanics from all previous games up to and including champions at the time of release of W&W (basically just wtv SV NDOU has now + wtv is in champions until W&W releases.)

That is one outlook but my interpretation based off how it was explained to me was that by merging SV with Champions, it would trump any other game for as long as Champions remains the official place for VGC to be played.

 

[Lysion]

That is one outlook but my interpretation based off how it was explained to me was that by merging SV with Champions, it would trump any other game for as long as Champions remains the official place for VGC to be played.

Ofc we're not there yet, but we're very likely to see WiWa additions be added to Champions anyway. And I'm not sure anything would be stopping us from getting the new stuff from WiWa anyway?

 

[ant4456]

A - Run NatDex SV and Champions congruently (this would be weird without two ladders for each OU but still technically feasible, given enough support and time its possible that Champions or SV could naturally request a permaladder in the same vain as SS NatDex did)
B - End SV Early, Champions is the new flagship metagame and everything is retiered.
C - SV is overwritten by Champions, current tiering continues as normal
D - Do not implement Champions at all

My take is

B (with SV ND remaining as a builder tier for tournament play, or as an 'oldgen' option like SWSH ND)
> A > C > D

I do not think D is a viable option (as said in my previous lengthy post), but I do think a transition period or time to prepare/hash out the details is expected. A worries me on if it can be handled with the workload, and I'd be curious on opinions from the people that would be responsible/have dealt with that stuff.

C I don't like but I'm also someone who has asked for DLC metas to be listed separately in the builder. In my opinion, part of the charm of Showdown is it's as much a concurrent and modern version of competitive Pokemon as it is a (theoretical ig, flawed) museum of what has been done in the past, with options to also make custom rulesets.

Replacing SV NatDex with CH NatDex entirely, if I understand what you mean, would in my opinion wipe out in a sense a really cool metagame, with a lot of mechanical changes that I think are worth delineating, especially as Champions gets updated to have more drops.

 

[danielism]

My stance on this issue is that we should have two different forms of Nat Dex:

1) Classic format: Where the new Pokémon are featured and the mechanics remain the same as they always have been.
2) Champions format: Where the mechanics follow Champions.

This is my stance because the fundamental purpose of National Dex is to have every Pokémon included in one format with all or most of their moves from over the years. It serves as a time capsule of how Pokémon evolves: after all it was developed in response to Dexit. Some in this thread have said that we shouldn't add new megas because the metagame is perfect as is, or because they see the only case in favor being "that it would be cool," I think these stances are both missing the point of National Dex and Pokémon as a whole.

On the idea that new megas will throw off the metagame, let me say this: the point of a Metagame is to grow, if you like Gen 9 Nat Dex and don't want it to change then just like the past gen Nat Dex formats you can play that. We can't just let a metagame stay the same: certainly not when its selling point and purpose for existence is having every Pokémon.

On the idea that people only want Megas because they're cool: I once again think this is a poor argument for the same reason as the last, being that National Dex's whole point is having every Pokémon present. That said the bigger reason we need them in the format is for Nat Dex and Pokémon to evolve, as this series is about an ever growing world of options and how those options change a metagame and expand player choice.

Again: I also don't want Champions mechanics in Nat Dex like many of you, however I also don't want Nat Dex to just stop here. Therefore I think a split is the best course of action to have new megas, respect champions, and keep the charm of National Dex.

Edit: after thinking about it I think the new mechanics in a nat dex format would be fine instead of having a split. That said the movesets should always stay the same.

Edit 2: SV Nat Dex should just become Gen 9 Nat Dex like past nat dex metagames instead of it being replaced by Champions.

 

[666lumberjack]

I think if you had surveyed the general playerbase prior to the release of Champions about whether they expected the newly available megas to be available in NatDex, an overwhelming majority would have said that they expected them to be included. Certainly I was surprised to see it as a subject of such heated discussions, and I remember many comments from the early discussions of Champions OU as a format that took for granted players would have NatDex as a format to use the new megas without restrictions such as Item clause or enforced level 50.

I say that not because I think following the majority opinion is necessarily the correct course of action with a contentious decision like this, but because I think it should be instructive with regard to the question of 'why add these?'. It feels more correct to me to ask 'why exclude these Pokemon?', when to do so would be a disappointment and a break from expectations for so many. To my perception the arguments against mainly fall into three main categories:

1. Champions isn't a mainline game and should have it's content excluded based on this distinction.

I admit this argument smells a little of motivated reasoning to me, but I'll try to take it in good faith. While it's true that Champions is not considered a 'mainline Pokemon game', it seems entirely arbitrary to me to exclude it's content from NatDex on that basis. Many have pointed to the precedent from previous side games, but I think Pokemon Champions is a completely unique case in having: new content, that can't be transferred to a mainline game, with a regular turn-based battle system and correspondingly no missing data to get in the way of implementation. This just isn't a case where what has been done previously in clearly disanalogous cases should be instructive, in my opinion.

2. It seems likely that Champions will be updated frequently with new content and changes, and this may be difficult for volunteers to implement on a timely basis.

This is the argument I have most sympathy for. Still, while I don't wish to seem like I'm taking the great work and the generous contributions of the current volunteer team for granted I can't help but find this horribly defeatist when considered on its own. It seems like this is a real possibility and it's entirely reasonable for the current team to be concerned about it, but also... it's hard to imagine that if this does prove to be the case it would be unviable to recruit more people to help with the effort through a sticky post in this main subforum and banners on Showdown/Discord or something.

3. Variations of 'I like the tier as it is right now and don't want new Pokemon to change it'.

I think this is a poor justification to exclude content from a tier in any case, but it also shouldn't be a question or concern at all in my mind because I think it's categorically inferior to the situation where we preserve 'SV NatDex OU' as is and then the main NatDex format implements all the new Pokemon/changes from Champions and its future updates. The primary concern that people have put forward with this scenario is that this is a division of the playerbase, but I think this overlooks that if the decision is ultimately to exclude Champions megas from NatDex that does not mean a 'NatDex + Champions' format will not exist in some form. Whether as a pet mod or unofficial tier on this site or just as a format on one of the Showdown side servers, there's clearly enough demand for 'play with all the items and Pokemon' that it's going to exist in some form. So the playerbase split is an inevitability in any scenario outside of the 'overwrite SV NatDex with Champions changes' one and shouldn't be a significant factor in choosing between them.

Lastly, to touch on the issue of identity - I don't think this creates any significant issues with arbitrariness or lack of identity for the format. (Provided that is that we implement all of the mechanics changes from Champions and don't arbitrarily pick and choose them.) My own personal conception of NatDex as a format has always been that it imagines a hypothetical mainline game with the most current classical battle mechanics and all data-complete content (Pokemon/Items/Moves) from the post-Dexit era available and simulates what battles in that game would be like. That to me is a consistent and sound definition to base the format on going forward and to my mind certainly less arbitrary than any definition of the tier you could create to specifically exclude the Champions content.

 

[sylphia]

I don't personally care for natdex ladder, but I want a natdex format that have the new stuff so I can use it for my draft league. It is selfish reason, but I just need the format exist in some form even if you can't play it against randoms.

 

[Cuddly]

Here are some of my thoughts:
1. I think its a no-brainer to let the new Megas into National Dex. We know their stats and abilities, and their movepools are tied to existing Pokemon anyways.
2. Movepool additions are also a no-brainer addition. It’s just nice letting Pokemon get movepool buffs.
3. This is more up for debate, but I think how Champions implements the status conditions should also happen for National Dex. I really fucking hate Paralysis, Sleep, and Freeze. The vast majority of people do. Implementing the nerfs would VASTLY improve the qol for battling, having less of a worry that your only answer to a set up sweeper doesn’t get paralyzed 4 times in a row.
4. I don’t really care about how the PP changes get implemented. PP rarely matters most of the time, and the times it matters are completely unaffected by the PP changes in Champions.
If you would like to change the PP of moves, you should only do so for moves that are currently available and only change other moves as Champions introduces more moves.
4.5. Also the move and ability buffs/nerfs should be implemented, but I wouldn’t care that much. Only a few moves got changes and a lot of them are also signature moves. We can also use the datamined move changes like MIR’s 95% accuracy dropping.
5. How Champions implements stats shouldn’t be implemented. IVs aren’t that important, but are still important to some sets like Stakataka. Also how SP works would be a bit confusing to play with. Not to mention limiting Pokemon to being Lvl 50.
6. Champions shouldn’t be its own sub for National Dex. Implementing NatDex Champions would be kind of pointless. You’d have 2 formats with the same Pokemon, but one is just Lvl 50 with SP (which barely changes anything), no IVs, and well nothing else.

Those are my thoughts on how Champions should be implemented.

 

[Runo]

If you would like to change the PP of moves, you should only do so for moves that are currently available and only change other moves as Champions introduces more moves.

Illegal moves don't get removed in champions, allowing you to see the Champions version of the illegal move's PP, according to Bobsican .

6. Champions shouldn’t be its own sub for National Dex. Implementing NatDex Champions would be kind of pointless. You’d have 2 formats with the same Pokemon, but one is just Lvl 50 with SP (which barely changes anything), no IVs, and well nothing else.

If Champions NatDex is split from SV ND, SV ND wouldn't get anything. This includes new Megas, movepools, other mechanics changes you mentioned.

 

[Cuddly]

Illegal moves don't get removed in champions, allowing you to see the Champions version of the illegal move's PP, according to @Bobsican .

Ok thanks. Didn’t know that.

If Champions NatDex is split from SV ND, SV ND wouldn't get anything. This includes new Megas, movepools, other mechanics changes you mentioned.

So what exactly would NatDex Champions look like then? Just current NatDex but with the Champions changes?

 

[Runo]

So what exactly would NatDex Champions look like then? Just current NatDex but with the Champions changes?

In my head it looks like:

Champions mechanics and legalities are used
All previous NatDex Mons are legal, with their expanded* movepools
All previous NatDex Items are legal

SV NatDex (what we currently play), wouldn't implement anything from Champions at all.

 

[timeflow]

A - Run NatDex SV and Champions congruently (this would be weird without two ladders for each OU but still technically feasible, given enough support and time its possible that Champions or SV could naturally request a permaladder in the same vain as SS NatDex did)
B - End SV Early, Champions is the new flagship metagame and everything is retiered.
C - SV is overwritten by Champions, current tiering continues as normal
D - Do not implement Champions at all

From a purely abstract perspective, A is the only coherent option here - Champions and SV are totally unrelated games, and as we have confirmation that the intention behind Champions is to keep it around as long as the series keeps running it is clear that the main gen and Champions will update independently from each other. As such Gen 9 Natdex should be superceded by Gen 10 Natdex (assuming obviously that Gen 10 has the usual battle system) and not Champions Natdex (as that format will still continue on).

Unfortunately, as I understand, activity on our formats is lower than ever and so keeping both ladders running in parallel might be impossible. If A is off the table, I think B is the only remaining sensible option - SV hasn't "ended" in the sense that WW hasn't yet released, but at least given that there are certainly no further content updates the format will remain roughly as it would have been by the time WW comes around (bar tiering action). The remaining two options should not be considered: C is in my eyes not coherent as I have explained above, Champions should not be tied to "Gen 9 Natdex" and should certainly be its own independent format; D while sensible in theory (we're waiting to see what WW will bring) is ridiculous in practice, it would be a very poor choice on our part to not have a Champions Natdex (or equivalent) format until late 2027.

A > B >>>> C=D.

Aside

This is more of a PR issue, but in the (unfortunate) event that we end up with option C, Champions' mechanics should completely overwrite SV's. Level 50 and Item Clause, while unpleasant changes, should be implemented and only removed if Champions itself removes these restrictions.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

From a purely abstract perspective, A is the only coherent option here - Champions and SV are totally unrelated games, and as we have confirmation that the intention behind Champions is to keep it around as long as the series keeps running it is clear that the main gen and Champions will update independently from each other. As such Gen 9 Natdex should be superceded by Gen 10 Natdex (assuming obviously that Gen 10 has the usual battle system) and not Champions Natdex (as that format will still continue on).

Unfortunately, as I understand, activity on our formats is lower than ever and so keeping both ladders running in parallel might be impossible. If A is off the table, I think B is the only remaining sensible option - SV hasn't "ended" in the sense that WW hasn't yet released, but at least given that there are certainly no further content updates the format will remain roughly as it would have been by the time WW comes around (bar tiering action). The remaining two options should not be considered: C is in my eyes not coherent as I have explained above, Champions should not be tied to "Gen 9 Natdex" and should certainly be its own independent format; D while sensible in theory (we're waiting to see what WW will bring) is ridiculous in practice, it would be a very poor choice on our part to not have a Champions Natdex (or equivalent) format until late 2027.

A > B >>>> C=D.

Aside

This is more of a PR issue, but in the (unfortunate) event that we end up with option C, Champions' mechanics should completely overwrite SV's. Level 50 and Item Clause, while unpleasant changes, should be implemented and only removed if Champions itself removes these restrictions.

My problem with A is that we will have no past glimpse into what SV natdex looked like if we just completely overwrite it, and as overshadowed as it would be, preserving old metas is something that should always happen, so people can just go back and play the old gen if they want just like with previous tiers and petmods

I think B is absolutely the most reasonable option here because of the fact it preserves SV Natdex as an oldgen so people can still play it easily, it also just makes more sense from a consistency standpoint

Winds and Waves aren't even guaranteed to have a comp meta in a traditional sense anyway, and if it does it will not be anything like the comp we are used to since we basically know champions is the new home for traditional comp.

Treating SV natdex as an oldgen feels like the best approach here, because by all intents and purposes, champions is essentially a new gen for comp

 

[Bobsican]

I'm reposting this without the link guess I'll just explain the tweet lol

If pre-champions pkmn operated on an EV and IV system and champions operates on an SP system with no EVs or IVs how would that play if they're implemented? Two different systems for stat calculation would be weird imo. Lmk.

The only real difference is that SPs only add a single extra regular point compared to the old EV system, or in plain terms the equivalent of 512 EVs to use over 508, if anything I'd worry about the new way raw stats are calculated, namely:

HP = BaseHP + StatPoints + 75
Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe = Nature * (BaseStat + StatPoints + 20), where Nature is 0.9, 1.0, or 1.1

As this means that Champions is incompatible with levels from what I'm understanding, and thus any Champions meta would have to effectively force every Pokemon to the equivalent of Lv 50 if so.

Case in point, the original formula for raw stats from Gen 3 onwards is the following:

HP = (((2 * BaseHP + IV + (EV/4)) * Level) / 100) + Level + 10
Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe = Nature * ((((2 * BaseStat + IV + (EV/4)) * Level) / 100) + 5), where Nature is 0.9, 1.0, or 1.1

Assuming a Lv of 50, 31 IVs, and replacing EVs with Stat Points (which are almost the same as explained in a prior paragraph):

HP = (((2 * BaseHP + 31 + StatPoints) * 50) / 100) + 50 + 10
Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe = Nature * ((((2 * BaseStat + 31 + StatPoints) * 50) / 100) + 5), where Nature is 0.9, 1.0, or 1.1

Now for a practical example, let's see what the stats of Castform (who has base 70 on all stats) would be in the old and new systems, assuming 0 EVs / Stat Points, Lv 50, and 31 IVs as before for the old system, plus a Serious nature for a simple 1.0 multiplier on all stats:

Old

HP = (((2 * 70 + 31 + 0) * 50) / 100) + 50 + 10
Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe = 1 * ((((2 * 70 + 31 + 0) * 50) / 100) + 5)

HP = 145.5 (rounds down to 145)
Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe = 90.5 (rounds down to 90)

New

HP = 70 + 0 + 75
Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe = 1 * (70 + 0 + 20)

HP = 145
Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe = 90

As we can see here, while the new system is much simpler and certainly good for performance, it does come with the side effect of Champions forcing Lv 50 by setting it as a sort of immutable state to abide to.

While I'm already seeing arguments to ignore the restriction, the thing is that this'd lean beyond ND's identity as it'd be modding the game for reasons unrelated to featuring all Pokemon species and regional gimmicks, and cherrypicking between SV and Champions mechanics would just invite even more arbitrary changes, which isn't desirable to keep respect and identity as a format over inviting users to make whatever, that's the whole reason this is a contested topic to keep consistent over just something dictated by ND leaders like some Solomod after all.

Illegal moves don't get removed in champions, allowing you to see the Champions version of the illegal move's PP, according to Bobsican .

Yeah, Bulbapedia even has compiled the list of the exact new PP for dexit'd moves, some concrete examples can be found here.

 

[timeflow]

My problem with A is that we will have no past glimpse into what SV natdex looked like if we just completely overwrite it, and as overshadowed as it would be, preserving old metas is something that should always happen

You are confusing A with C. A would keep both formats as "current gen", running in parallel (mirroring with SV OU and Champions OU are currently doing). C is the one where you implement all the Champions changes and overhaul Gen 9 Natdex.