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Metagame Champions OU Metagame Discussion

Okay now that the rat is gone I want to address something else that could become an issue.

I think Zabsol could be far more of a problem now that Ychu is gone since a lot of fat Pokemon aren’t thrilled to take it on after an SD including hippo who while a decent check gets two tapped after an sd anyway even at maxed physical bulk and hp. A zabsol that can get an sd off can outright win a game and can potentially cheese past checks when it scores a 1 in 10 crit on shadow claw.

I fear we might see some experimentation with screens as well as some teams that try to enable it as much as possible and it can do some crazy damage into its checks and potentially bypass them entirely on crit. Like after an sd nothing is ever super safe, including checks like hippo who get two tapped after sd. My eyes are definitely on zabsol for a potential problem in the future, but we shall see.
 
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BolTingBlazie said:
Okay now that the rat is gone I want to address something else that could become an issue.

I think Zabsol could be far more of a problem now that Ychu is gone since a lot of fat Pokemon aren’t thrilled to take it on after an SD including hippo who while a decent check gets two tapped after an sd anyway even at maxed physical bulk and hp. A zabsol that can get an sd off can outright win a game and can potentially cheese past checks when it scores a 1 in 10 crit on shadow claw.

I fear we might see some experimentation with screens as well as some teams that try to enable it as much as possible and it can do some crazy damage into its checks and potentially bypass them entirely on crit. Like after an sd nothing is ever super safe, including checks like hippo who get two tapped after sd. My eyes are definitely on zabsol for a potential problem in the future, but we shall see.
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Issue is, Zabsol struggles to find set up that easily, especially vs bulky teams as it doesn't really threaten healthy pokemon out unless they're weak to its stabs, which... isn't that many pokemon. This is mostly a problem because of its absurd frailty, a fact compounded by its hazard vulnerability.

Screens are also a style that struggles to make consistency without screens, and there are other set up threats on screens that'd be more worth supporting like ZardX who is greatly bulky for how strong it is, and has far less counterplay at +1 speed and attack. Zabsol can't really switch into battle itself, and its super prone to being revenge killed due to all our good scarfers being dark/ghost resistant and thus not really bothered by Sucker Punch. And as for opposing offensive teams...

31 Atk Sharpness Absol-Mega-Z Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 106-126 (57.9 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Such a common mon can soak unboosted hits and blow it back without needing defense investment, which showcases that it struggles vs even offensive mons with halfway solid bulk, nevermind something like chomp with great natural bulk.

To be clear, Zabsol is a pretty good pokemon. But I seriously struggle to see it as something that'd become an issue when it has so many flaws as is.
 
Do we think unbanning light clay (and damp rock?) make the tier better or worse? Feels like a fair amount of pokemon would be better with screens, but not sure it would make the annoying ones more annoying or not. So far I haven't seen a strong argument for why it was banned other than tradition for small tiers, and with the higher number of pokemon since it was banned I think it might be worth looking at

Also, thoughts on removing the one pokemon per item clause?
 
Moyashi said:
Ding dong the rat has gone... to enjoy its retirement because ain't no way it'd ever see use even if there was a Champions Ubers tier.

Ahem.

I don't really think there's any true losers to this ban, since YChu's ban opens open building a lot and there will be less stress on mons that were formerly used to check it. But winners...

:Pawmot:
This mon is not the easiest to build with but it is GOOD. Incredibly potent wallbreaker that can 2HKO most defensive pokemon with LO and its stabs, Ice Punch smashing through most of the remaining answers to its stabs. It does barely miss on KOs vs healthy bulky Chomp but it's hardly a dealbreaker since that takes damage so often. Has a very free 4th moveslot after stabs+ice punch, which there are many good choices. I like Encore, but Mach Punch keeps it from being picked off by Sucker Punch, as even with a resist it's very much frail still and post CC it can be vulnerable to the move.

:garchomp: :hippowdon: :gliscor: :excadrill:
Grounds generally improve if only because they're now less pressured to stay at super high health for a YChu in the back, and thus can focus on checking other stuff. Hippo I feel is especially great since now it has the luxury of possibly flexing between spdef or more of a physical focus, depending on the team's needs. Physdef being a really sturdy stop to Blaziken and ZardX (brokens), also stopping Zabsol cold. Gliscor meanwhile was a very underrated pick even during YChu's time, but it gets better now that it's not forced to be so careful constantly with its health. Strong hazard setter this one, especially with taunt to shut off defog from Corv.

:Metagross-Mega: :Staraptor-Mega: :Froslass-Mega:
Both of these while able to slam YChu hard on a good predicted switch in, hated 1v1ing it. Meta could trade at least, but it would often be paralyzed in the end while Raptor just loses to YChu always. So it leaving is great for both. (btw run Body Press Mega Meta, much better than EQ which only really serves to hit Aegislash). Froslass meanwhile might seem like a weird 'gets better', but it lost not only an offensive check but also competition with YChu's ban. It's quite fast itself, and ice stab is incredibly threatening in this metagame, especially with how many teams rely on Garchomp to glue teams together. It slices right through Corv/Chomp/Glowking structures, and even can burn Hamurott with Wisp.

:Samurott-Hisui:
I guess this is a loser... in the sense that now that it's #1 partner in crime is banned, the spotlight is on it now but eh. We're all winners if this thing gets the boot someday. (I hate this thing even though it looks cool)

Few other thought

:Conkeldurr:
Don't really see it at all tbh. It's incredibly lacking in defensive profile and invites in a lot of dangerous pokemon (Meganium, Floette, Aegislash, Annihilape, Staraptor) and is heavily prediction reliant which is quite undesirable given how slow it is, making wrong predictions very punishing. It's not horrible don't get me wrong, but it's niche at most and I don't really think it goes beyond that.

:Dragalge-Mega:
This one's totally fine. The departure of YChu is actually good for it, since now it's not perpetually pressured to run max spdef and can focus on other spreads and movesets. It still nicely checks Mega Meganium while also beating up Hatterene, is a great Primarina check (though I've never been that high on this mon but hey, it's there), absorbs and sets toxic spikes which in this meta is very valuable, and just has good longevity and is a nice active pivot that doesn't have to fear dropping momentum like some other pivots do.

:Garchomp-Mega-Z:
This mon is very solid and I'm even more high of opinion on this mon than I was when I first nommed it in the VR thread. Strong speed control and wallbreaking in one slot, capable of soft checking a lot of frailer offensive in a pinch. Being spikes immune means it also isn't that easy to wear down, and providing teams with a webs immune speed control option that's this fast is nice. Solidly customizable moveset too. Of course, big opportunity cost when base Chomp is so good, but there's real merit to this mon as well. Don't overlook it, give it a try.

Side note, but... I miss :Mandibuzz:
Kinda wish we had it around right now.
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Sadly scor lost Taunt in Champions so it can't actually pressure Corv beyond just knocking off its Helmet (which IMO isn't worth running over the Tox EQ Combo that lets it perform better vs other threats).
 
fluff!! said:
Unfortunately (?), Gliscor does not have access to Taunt in Champions.
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Oh wait really? Huh. I really don't know why I thought it still had taunt or why I remember using it.

Gigabowser20 said:
So far I haven't seen a strong argument for why it was banned other than tradition for small tiers, and with the higher number of pokemon since it was banned I think it might be worth looking at
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It was banned because the tier was (and remains) run by many powerful boosting sweepers, with limited defensive options as is. It being a small tier has nothing to do with it. I'm not really sure why you'd even want to bring it back since frankly, light clay just encourages cheese. It just makes offense, already a very strong style, even better and for no real reason.
 
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Underutilized Mons That Win Games (GXE ≈ 70% x Early T500)

:banette-mega:
Banette (M) @ Banettite
Ability: Cursed Body
Level: 50
EVs: 32 HP / 32 Atk / 2 Def
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak
- Destiny Bond
- Encore

It's a bit of a noob-trap than an actual threat higher up, but you essentially either surprise kill with priority Destiny Bond or surprise trap something with priority Encore & hit something hard with Poltergeist. This mon is more of a gimmick that you might see in BSS singles, but it gave me it's fair share of success & bail outs.

:gyarados:
Gyarados (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 13 HP / 32 Atk / 21 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Whip
- Waterfall
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Fang

Gimmicks aside, I initially opted for 21 Speed in order to outspeed Raichu Y after 1 D dance. Intimidate makes Gyarados setups free & you'll start to notice a big theme of the sets/mons I use are their surprise factors; removing even 1 backbone for free on the other team can mean your victory or defeat & Power Whip has claimed many Primarina, Swampert, and Rotom-Wash alike. The same can be said for Garchomps & Meganiums when you add in Ice Fang. Waterfall flinches also helps flip interactions you had no business winning otherwise. Be warned, Life Orb's self damage can easily work against you for otherwise cleans sweeps.

:snorlax:
Snorlax (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 32 HP / 2 Def / 32 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Heat Crash
- Rock Slide

I can already feel your high elo stare, but hear me out :psycry:

:delphox-mega:

32 SpA Delphox-Mega Flamethrower vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Snorlax: 60-72 (22.4 - 26.9%) -- 31.2% chance to 4HKO

32 SpA Delphox-Mega Psyshock vs. 32 HP / 2 Def Snorlax: 109-130 (40.8 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Snorlax Rock Slide vs. 1 HP / 1 Def Delphox-Mega: 80-96 (52.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:chandelure-mega:

32+ SpA Chandelure-Mega Flamethrower vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Snorlax: 72-85 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure-Mega: 78-92 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:charizard-mega-y:

32 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Snorlax in Sun: 102-121 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Snorlax Rock Slide vs. 2 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 152-180 (98 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

:volcarona:

+1 32+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Snorlax: 78-93 (29.2 - 34.8%) -- 7.7% chance to 3HKO

+1 32+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Snorlax: 88-105 (32.9 - 39.3%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

:garchomp-mega-z:

32 SpA Garchomp-Mega-Z Draco Meteor vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Snorlax: 81-96 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 37.3% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Snorlax Ice Punch vs. 2 HP / 0 Def Garchomp-Mega-Z: 70-84 (37.8 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:garchomp: (common spdef tank chomp)

0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 100-118 (37.4 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


2 Atk Snorlax Ice Punch vs. 32 HP / 0+ Def Garchomp: 120-144 (55.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:raichu-mega-y:

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Snorlax: 108-128 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Zap Cannon vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Snorlax: 81-96 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 37.3% chance to 3HKO

2 Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 2 Def Raichu-Mega-Y: 130-154 (96.2 - 114%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

:hydreigon:

32 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Snorlax: 73-87 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

2 Atk Snorlax Ice Punch vs. 2 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 68-82 (40.2 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:primarina:

32+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Snorlax: 58-70 (21.7 - 26.2%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO

Depending on what your team is trying to do & counter, you can opt for more attack to turn some 3HKO into 2HKOs.

:dragonite:

Dragonite (M) @ Sitrus Berry/Expert Belt/Dragoninite
Ability: Multiscale
Level: 50
EVs: 2 HP / 32 SpA / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Air Slash
- Thunderbolt/Roost

The multiscale bailouts have been insanely valuable in a lot of games & I'm surprised I don't see more spa Dragonite (or Drago in general). Outside of Dragonite being able to sponge & revenge things Volc, Rai Y, Mega Golisopod, Char Y (unlikely vs a roost set unless you crit it or para w/T-bolt), and even handle Primarina when at full health (Expert Belt/Modest Nature + Tbolt for reliable 2HKO), Flamethrower catches steel types like Golisopod & Defense Ego Corviknight's with their pants down. Sometimes, I get ignorant with multiscale to eliminate other Dragons like Archaludon or Garchomp, but the list of mons Spa Dragonite can mitigate in this meta is absurd.

:goodra-hisui:

Goodra-Hisui (F) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Gooey
Level: 50
EVs: 32 HP / 2 Def / 32 SpA
Modest Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt

General nuisance that mitigates Primarina, Garchomp + Rillaboom (Shuca Berry + Ice Beam), Golisopod, Charizard Y, Glimmora, Pelipper, Basculegion, Potentially, Hydreigon (32+ SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Goodra-Hisui: 84-100 (44.9 - 53.4%). The wide range of coverage it offers makes Goodra-Hisui generally uncomfortable to play around while tanking a lot.

:slowbro:

Slowbro (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 50
EVs: 32 HP / 32 Def / 2 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off

Classic Regenerator Slowbro shant be overlooked. Scald is very much a problem for a lot of teams. Offensively, you only threat a few mons like Garchomp, Cinderace, and Delphox (M), but defensively, even if you're not in positions to threaten with Calm Minds, the sheer RNG & Pressure of 30% burns wholly uncomfortable to play into.

:venusaur:

Venusaur (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 50
EVs: 32 HP / 32 SpA / 2 SpD
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Weather Ball
- Growth

I actually haven't played this Venu much, but it's something I wanted to throw out as a Primarina counter if you're open to using Sun. (Also, I'm surprised I'm not seeing nearly as much Prim as there could be. Practically nothing wants to switch into that thing.)

I'm always looking for new toys to experiment with. If you have some underutilized sets & feedback to share, please write them for us!
 
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SX SAD. said:
:dragonite:

Dragonite (M) @ Sitrus Berry/Expert Belt
Ability: Multiscale
Level: 50
EVs: 2 HP / 32 SpA / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Air Slash
- Thunderbolt/Roost

The multiscale bailouts have been insanely valuable in a lot of games & I'm surprised I don't see more spa Dragonite (or Drago in general). Outside of Dragonite being able to sponge & revenge things Volc, Rai Y, Mega Golisopod, Char Y, and even handle Primarina when at full health (Expert Belt/Modest Nature + Tbolt for reliable 2HKO), Flamethrower catches steel types like Golisopod & Defense Ego Corviknight's with their pants down. Sometimes, I get ignorant with multiscale to eliminate other Dragons like Archaludon or Garchomp, but the list of mons Spa Dragonite can mitigate in this meta is absurd.
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The issue I see is... why would you run this? If you want to use special dragonite, its mega should be the thing you run. Otherwise this really just is mostly inferior to special Salamence, who's faster and stronger. With how limited our removal is, multiscale isn't a strong enough differentiating factor when discussing the two dragon's as special attackers, and Mence having access to intimidate means it will check Kingambit and Ceruledge more comfortably, and has the benefit of being able to outrun Glimmora and potentially beat it, which Dragonite cannot do. Dragonite is also not really a ZardY check, since Weather Ball into Dragon Pulse 2HKOs Nite.

Tbh, I think Mence in general is underexplored in the meta, since it bullies bulky Garchomp (which are often slower), and can run a decent scarf set

:Salamence:
Salamence @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate / Moxie
Level: 50
EVs: 1 HP / 32 Atk / 1 SpD / 32 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hurricane / Dual Wingbeat
- Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
- Rock Slide

Rock Slide beats Volcarona and Charizard Y, while Earthquake has enough oomph to pick off weakened steels with a slight bit prior chip. Draco Meteor is just a free easy spam into Garchomp and it can pull neat stuff off like this

32 Atk Salamence Rock Slide vs. 1 HP / 1 Def Delphox-Mega: 114-136 (75.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Which is pretty valuable. It in general outruns a lot of the slow mid-range scarfers which allows it to pick up nice KOs against them and other threats. It even soft checks Staraptor in a pinch and can blowback Absol Z if need be, while also beating Cinderace even.
 
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Moyashi said:
The issue I see is... why would you run this? If you want to use special dragonite, its mega should be the thing you run. Otherwise this really just is mostly inferior to special Salamence, who's faster and stronger. With how limited our removal is, multiscale isn't a strong enough differentiating factor when discussing the two dragon's as special attackers, and Mence having access to intimidate means it will check Kingambit and Ceruledge more comfortably, and has the benefit of being able to outrun Glimmora and potentially beat it, which Dragonite cannot do. Dragonite is also not really a ZardY check, since Weather Ball into Dragon Pulse 2HKOs Nite.

Tbh, I think Mence in general is underexplored in the meta, since it bullies bulky Garchomp (which are often slower), and can run a decent scarf set

:Salamence:
Salamence @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate / Moxie
Level: 50
EVs: 1 HP / 32 Atk / 1 SpD / 32 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hurricane / Dual Wingbeat
- Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
- Rock Slide

Rock Slide beats Volcarona and Charizard Y, while Earthquake has enough oomph to pick off weakened steels with a slight bit prior chip. Draco Meteor is just a free easy spam into Garchomp and it can pull neat stuff off like this

32 Atk Salamence Rock Slide vs. 1 HP / 1 Def Delphox-Mega: 114-136 (75.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Which is pretty valuable. It in general outruns a lot of the slow mid-range scarfers which allows it to pick up nice KOs against them and other threats. It even soft checks Staraptor in a pinch and can blowback Absol Z if need be, while also beating Cinderace even.
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I'm using Dragonite as a bulky offense with sustain; I don't recall saying anything about raw offensive power, but if you want that, sure, go for Salamence? Nothing is stopping you from using Mega Dragonite either. Salamence also does miss out on the surprise factors I mentioned. Lots of my opponents expected the Dragon Dance set & tried tanking with Corv or losing their Mega Pod.

The difference is that Salamence is OHKO'd by Moonblasts, Power Gem Glimmora (Beware of Focus Sash when using Salamence), opposing Draco Meteors, etc. Also, if people expect the Salamence to outspeed & lock itself into a move, it loses the value of a surprise KO, which, again, has been a strong factor in my climbs. But Salamence is rather underutilized too; all things considered, thanks for sharing it!

:salamence:

32- SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 32 HP / 2 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 87-103 (43.9 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO

32 SpA Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. 1 HP / 1 SpD Salamence: 222-264 (129.8 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:primarina:

32+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 32 HP / 2 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 85-102 (42.9 - 51.5%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

32+ SpA Dragonite Thunderbolt vs. 11 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 84-100 (50.6 - 60.2%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

32+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 2 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 210-248 (122 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:charizard-mega-y:

32 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Dragon Pulse vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 56-67 (28.2 - 33.8%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO

32 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Dragon Pulse vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 112-134 (56.5 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A Standard Timid Mega Charizard Y Does Not 2HKO Our Dragonite Reliably, Even After The More Beneficial Dragon Pulse Multiscale Break. "Weather Ball into Dragon Pulse 2HKOs Nite" is False. Conversely, Double Dragon Pulse Is Also NOT a 2HKO.
 
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SX SAD. said:
I'm using Dragonite as a bulky offense with sustain; I don't recall saying anything about raw offensive power, but if you want that, sure, go for Salamence? Nothing is stopping you from using Mega Dragonite either. Salamence also does miss out on the surprise factors I mentioned. Lots of my opponents expected the Dragon Dance set & tried tanking with Corv or losing their Mega Pod.
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They both do sustain. Given the existence of SR and how difficult it can be to remove them in the tier due to our lacking removal options, keeping rocks off for DNite to let it act defensively is not easy. Its ability to take and trade those hits is predicated on a team's ability TO keep them off. If you can't, a special attacking Mence will be better, given its speed and power means it also will be able to threaten the opposing team while overall contributing the same type of defensive utility.

As a general rule of thumb in competitive, relying on pure surprise factor will never work for consistency. It's far more advisable to build something that doesn't depend on that surprise factor to function, especially since more competent opponents will scout for sets (also, I'm not sure why a Golisopod player would use it vs DNite when the risk of Fire Punch is there).

SX SAD. said:
32- SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 32 HP / 2 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 87-103 (43.9 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO

32 SpA Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. 1 HP / 1 SpD Salamence: 222-264 (129.8 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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I'm... not sure what the point of this calc is? Not really relevant since the topic was about their ability to check threats. Also it's important to calc for SR, even if your team has some kind of removal, because it's a real situation you have to account for. I'm gonna address the HP investment in a second, but...

SX SAD. said:
:primarina:

32+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 32 HP / 2 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 85-102 (42.9 - 51.5%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

32+ SpA Dragonite Thunderbolt vs. 11 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 84-100 (50.6 - 60.2%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

32+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 2 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 210-248 (122 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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These calcs really aren't relevant either, since in practice neither dragon should be trying to 1v1 a Primarina, who typically has bulk investment, and often runs CM.

SX SAD. said:
:charizard-mega-y:

32 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Dragon Pulse vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 56-67 (28.2 - 33.8%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO

32 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Dragon Pulse vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 112-134 (56.5 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A Standard Timid Mega Charizard Y Does Not 2HKO Our Dragonite Reliably, Even After The More Beneficial Dragon Pulse Multiscale Break. "Weather Ball into Dragon Pulse 2HKOs Nite" is False. Conversely, Double Dragon Pulse Is Also NOT a 2HKO.
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Anyways, your original post has Dragonite with max spatk/speed, not HP, so I calc'd appropriately.

I'm confused also why you'd run such a slow Dragonite, since it leaves it incredibly prone to just being run over. Yeah it won't instantly die to any one hit, but it'll be too slow to follow up and get picked off next turn. The lack of speed investment will lead to it eating repeated hits. This also, realistically, still does not answer ZardY regardless, as it cannot come close to OHKOing it even with an EBelt TBolt, and it is free to roost one off the next turn, taking reduced damage from Tbolt.

I like innovations and fun sets, but I'm just going to say that relying on surprise, and your opponent not knowing better or expecting your set, is gambling essentially and against skilled opponents is really not reliable. Surprise factor isn't inherently bad mind you, it's about ensuring the set remains effective even if the surprise is no longer there.
 
Moyashi said:
They both do sustain. Given the existence of SR and how difficult it can be to remove them in the tier due to our lacking removal options, keeping rocks off for DNite to let it act defensively is not easy. Its ability to take and trade those hits is predicated on a team's ability TO keep them off. If you can't, a special attacking Mence will be better, given its speed and power means it also will be able to threaten the opposing team while overall contributing the same type of defensive utility.

As a general rule of thumb in competitive, relying on pure surprise factor will never work for consistency. It's far more advisable to build something that doesn't depend on that surprise factor to function, especially since more competent opponents will scout for sets (also, I'm not sure why a Golisopod player would use it vs DNite when the risk of Fire Punch is there).



I'm... not sure what the point of this calc is? Not really relevant since the topic was about their ability to check threats. Also it's important to calc for SR, even if your team has some kind of removal, because it's a real situation you have to account for. I'm gonna address the HP investment in a second, but...



These calcs really aren't relevant either, since in practice neither dragon should be trying to 1v1 a Primarina, who typically has bulk investment, and often runs CM.


Anyways, your original post has Dragonite with max spatk/speed, not HP, so I calc'd appropriately.

I'm confused also why you'd run such a slow Dragonite, since it leaves it incredibly prone to just being run over. Yeah it won't instantly die to any one hit, but it'll be too slow to follow up and get picked off next turn. The lack of speed investment will lead to it eating repeated hits. This also, realistically, still does not answer ZardY regardless, as it cannot come close to OHKOing it even with an EBelt TBolt, and it is free to roost one off the next turn, taking reduced damage from Tbolt.

I like innovations and fun sets, but I'm just going to say that relying on surprise, and your opponent not knowing better or expecting your set, is gambling essentially and against skilled opponents is really not reliable. Surprise factor isn't inherently bad mind you, it's about ensuring the set remains effective even if the surprise is no longer there.
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Your points are valid & it's the nuance of different cores you might run with each mon that is an apparent tipping factor on both our sides. In my games, a Dragonite oriented towards its bulk wasn't notably impacted by any key targets (& those targets' supports) I included Drago on my team for. (Common Garchomp, Archaludon, Char Y, Volc sets, etc., outspeed it regardless of our EVs.) Contrarily, Corviknight, (M) Golisopod, Empoleon, Primarina, etc. were outsped regardless. Dnites moveset isn't anything too out of left field since it's more or less its Mega form's set, and you can opt for the mega & adjust stats accordingly based on what your team's needs are! In my case, using it as a Tanky but oppressive check/ego challenger worked wonders for getting rid of what I needed it to. That's not to say it makes Salamence any less of a strong, consistent option based on what your team wants to do.

And looking at it, I completely forgot the "HP/SPA" in the original post to suggest it was one of 2 fringe options; I'm sorry for my oversight ;-; (I added your feedback that it's unlikely for Drago to win vs Roost Char Y sets. I haven't had enough data against Roost Y, so your critique is critical info to include. Thank you again for sharing!)

"I'm... not sure what the point of this calc is? Not really relevant since the topic was about their ability to check threats."

Simply to show my work on why I included Dragonite for ego challenging those threats under it's multiscale. Naturally, the threat of rocks is there, so I've found Drago able to survive SR + Pulse Char Y outside of the HP set. I couldn't get that from Mence. The speed tie with Char Y vs Mence was also a determining factor when I had a scarf user elsewhere. I know staying in for certain 1v1s seems illogical, but the unorthodox staying potential Drago had to eliminate both Prim for the team, & multiscale cop-outs from things like the Defiant Kingambits or Annihilapes yielded me great results this go around! Regarding (M) Staraptor + Mence, since the bird is naturally faster & OHKOs with Brave Bird if I had to give it the intimidate on contrary, it would make things dicier than desired. Considering Mence could mess around & whiff the Hurricane/Wing Beat or Draco if I opted to use my scarf slot on top of that, I also opted Nite for this purpose (more or less the same Annihilape/Gambit swap issue). As with everything, there's nuance.
 
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dhelmise said:
Available Pokémon

Generation 1
:venusaur::charizard::blastoise::beedrill::pidgeot::arbok::pikachu::raichu::raichu-alola::clefable::ninetales::ninetales-alola::vileplume::arcanine::arcanine-hisui::alakazam::machamp::victreebel::slowbro::slowbro-galar::gengar::kangaskhan::starmie::pinsir::tauros::tauros-paldea-combat::gyarados::ditto::vaporeon::jolteon::flareon::aerodactyl::snorlax::dragonite:

Generation 2
:meganium::typhlosion::typhlosion-hisui::feraligatr::ariados::ampharos::azumarill::politoed::espeon::umbreon::slowking::slowking-galar::forretress::steelix::qwilfish::scizor::heracross::skarmory::houndoom::tyranitar:

Generation 3
:sceptile::blaziken::swampert::pelipper::gardevoir::sableye::mawile::aggron::medicham::manectric::sharpedo::camerupt::altaria::milotic::castform::chimecho::absol::glalie::metagross:

Generation 4
:torterra::infernape::empoleon::staraptor::luxray::roserade::rampardos::bastiodon::lopunny::garchomp::lucario::hippowdon::toxicroak::abomasnow::weavile::rhyperior::leafeon::glaceon::gliscor::mamoswine::gallade::froslass::rotom:

Generation 5
:serperior::emboar::samurott::samurott-hisui::watchog::liepard::simisage::simisear::simipour::musharna::excadrill::audino::conkeldurr::scolipede::whimsicott::krookodile::scrafty::cofagrigus::garbodor::zoroark::zoroark-hisui::reuniclus::vanilluxe::emolga::eelektross::chandelure::beartic::stunfisk::stunfisk-galar::golurk::hydreigon::volcarona:

Generation 6
:chesnaught::delphox::greninja::diggersby::talonflame::vivillon::pyroar::floette-eternal::florges::pangoro::furfrou::meowstic::meowstic-f::aegislash::aromatisse::slurpuff::malamar::barbaracle::dragalge::clawitzer::heliolisk::tyrantrum::aurorus::sylveon::hawlucha::dedenne::goodra::goodra-hisui::klefki::trevenant::gourgeist::avalugg::avalugg-hisui::noivern:

Generation 7
:decidueye::decidueye-hisui::incineroar::primarina::toucannon::crabominable::lycanroc::toxapex::mudsdale::araquanid::salazzle::tsareena::oranguru::passimian::mimikyu::drampa::kommo-o:

Generation 8
:corviknight::flapple::appletun::sandaconda::polteageist::hatterene::grimmsnarl::mr-rime::runerigus::alcremie::falinks::morpeko::dragapult::wyrdeer::kleavor::basculegion::basculegion-f::sneasler::overqwil:

Generation 9
:meowscarada::skeledirge::quaquaval::maushold::garganacl::armarouge::ceruledge::scovillain::espathra::tinkaton::palafin::glimmora::houndstone::annihilape::farigiraf::kingambit::gholdengo::sinistcha::archaludon::hydrapple:

Available Mega Evolutions
:venusaur-mega::blastoise-mega::charizard-mega-x::charizard-mega-y::beedrill-mega::pidgeot-mega::raichu-mega-x::raichu-mega-y::clefable-mega::alakazam-mega::victreebel-mega::slowbro-mega::gengar-mega::kangaskhan-mega::starmie-mega::pinsir-mega::gyarados-mega::aerodactyl-mega::dragonite-mega::meganium-mega::feraligatr-mega::ampharos-mega::steelix-mega::scizor-mega::heracross-mega::skarmory-mega::houndoom-mega::tyranitar-mega::sceptile-mega::blaziken-mega::swampert-mega::gardevoir-mega::sableye-mega::mawile-mega::aggron-mega::manectric-mega::sharpedo-mega::camerupt-mega::altaria-mega::chimecho-mega::glalie-mega::metagross-mega::staraptor-mega::lopunny-mega::garchomp-mega::lucario-mega::abomasnow-mega::gallade-mega::froslass-mega::emboar-mega::excadrill-mega::audino-mega::scolipede-mega::scrafty-mega::eelektross-mega::chandelure-mega::golurk-mega::chesnaught-mega::delphox-mega::greninja-mega::pyroar-mega::floette-mega::meowstic-m-mega::malamar-mega::barbaracle-mega::dragalge-mega::hawlucha-mega::crabominable-mega::drampa-mega::falinks-mega::scovillain-mega::glimmora-mega:

Mechanical Differences from SV
Coming soon!
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When will this post be updated? (reg m-c)
 
Pippinobellino said:
would like to know your reasoning for putting excadrill so high in your tier list, i've tried to use him but i've never found success, he seems to have troubles switching into a lot of foes, i am definitely using him wrong and i would like to know what his true strenght are
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Incredible defensive profile + rapid spin to pressure ghosts to switch in. Which don't like eq
 
Imma give a relatively decent effort post for this. I been playin champs on the side for a bit now and while I'm well aware ladder is not the highest showcase of competitive integrity I do have some personal thoughts on the meta in general. I think this tier is actually mad fun when certain pieces of shit don't show up, but that's besides the point. I'll give some overall thoughts on some mons just cuz im bored and procrastinating on SCL predicts.

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Fuck this thing. Well and truly fuck dis broken ass mon. I don't think it's unbeatable or anything, but as far as non megas go and frankly megas included, this thing is leaps and bounds the most toxic shit in the tier. I get there's Throat Chop Victim Aegislash or "keep above 70%" Corv and Hippo and what not but I'm sorry this tier is rife with victims victims and more victims. The fact I haven't even mentioned Dire Claw yet is funny but man this thing is just stupid. I don't ask for stuff like suspects or the like very often in tiers especially in threads cuz it just feels very reduntant and ineffective but for the love of god please tell me this thing is getting looked at as a suspect candidate. I get that its hard to tier this kinda format when new shit gets added all the time but I promise you nobody will miss this thing for awhile. I know people clamored for like, H-Samu suspect but I couldn't disagree w that more ngl. That mon is very good but very fine in comparison.

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This thing is not all that good I'm ngl. When you can basically not find a single team without like Sacred Sword H-Samu, Helmet Corvs, Tankchomps and shit like Hippo, Mega Meganium Mega Lopp etc this thing is just struggling to perform. Even for all those Overwhelm the Corv Offense comps usually have Something Else for KGB like the others aforementioned. It's not bad I mean its bloody Kingambit, but it is definitely not at the level of the others that sit in A rank. Like you tellin me this shit is as good as Mega Meganium and Hippowdon? Hell no. Chople Berry smooths some cracks but its still not the best.

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Lowkey a very annoying mon. If I don't queue Clefable or like Mega Floette I may as well blow my shot off with a shotgun every time it comes in because the fairies on offer are either weak to coverage, cant take a hit for shit or are Primarina with no recovery. The call of Garchomp being mega sucks because your hippowdon exploding stops being funny the 7th fucking time it happens. I don't think its broken or anything, but it is definitely the mega I probably loathe fighting most because it really is just load a clef or drown cuz defensively checking it otherwise feels like absolute shit at the moment. At least Absol is made of paper and takes contact damage you mean to tell me that mon has more sauce than this guy?

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Still the goat. No mon will ever have as much sauce as this guy. EVER. Who cares about taking chip you just predict right and shit dies. This thing didn't need to lose knock that shit was just kinda unnecessary to remove ion gon lie. This is the type of mon who would LOVE HWish support but until we get Cresselia the best you'll get for this guy is Clefable. Oh well. Defensive value is amazing you can just facetank a scarf ceaseless and not give a shit its truly something special. Golisopod eats its lunch a bit like really it isnt impossible to get around w no reliable recovery. Scizor was way worse for that shit.
 
LBN said:
Imma give a relatively decent effort post for this. I been playin champs on the side for a bit now and while I'm well aware ladder is not the highest showcase of competitive integrity I do have some personal thoughts on the meta in general. I think this tier is actually mad fun when certain pieces of shit don't show up, but that's besides the point. I'll give some overall thoughts on some mons just cuz im bored and procrastinating on SCL predicts.

Normal.png

Fuck this thing. Well and truly fuck dis broken ass mon. I don't think it's unbeatable or anything, but as far as non megas go and frankly megas included, this thing is leaps and bounds the most toxic shit in the tier. I get there's Throat Chop Victim Aegislash or "keep above 70%" Corv and Hippo and what not but I'm sorry this tier is rife with victims victims and more victims. The fact I haven't even mentioned Dire Claw yet is funny but man this thing is just stupid. I don't ask for stuff like suspects or the like very often in tiers especially in threads cuz it just feels very reduntant and ineffective but for the love of god please tell me this thing is getting looked at as a suspect candidate. I get that its hard to tier this kinda format when new shit gets added all the time but I promise you nobody will miss this thing for awhile. I know people clamored for like, H-Samu suspect but I couldn't disagree w that more ngl. That mon is very good but very fine in comparison.

Normal.png

This thing is not all that good I'm ngl. When you can basically not find a single team without like Sacred Sword H-Samu, Helmet Corvs, Tankchomps and shit like Hippo, Mega Meganium Mega Lopp etc this thing is just struggling to perform. Even for all those Overwhelm the Corv Offense comps usually have Something Else for KGB like the others aforementioned. It's not bad I mean its bloody Kingambit, but it is definitely not at the level of the others that sit in A rank. Like you tellin me this shit is as good as Mega Meganium and Hippowdon? Hell no. Chople Berry smooths some cracks but its still not the best.

Normal.png

Lowkey a very annoying mon. If I don't queue Clefable or like Mega Floette I may as well blow my shot off with a shotgun every time it comes in because the fairies on offer are either weak to coverage, cant take a hit for shit or are Primarina with no recovery. The call of Garchomp being mega sucks because your hippowdon exploding stops being funny the 7th fucking time it happens. I don't think its broken or anything, but it is definitely the mega I probably loathe fighting most because it really is just load a clef or drown cuz defensively checking it otherwise feels like absolute shit at the moment. At least Absol is made of paper and takes contact damage you mean to tell me that mon has more sauce than this guy?

Normal.png

Still the goat. No mon will ever have as much sauce as this guy. EVER. Who cares about taking chip you just predict right and shit dies. This thing didn't need to lose knock that shit was just kinda unnecessary to remove ion gon lie. This is the type of mon who would LOVE HWish support but until we get Cresselia the best you'll get for this guy is Clefable. Oh well. Defensive value is amazing you can just facetank a scarf ceaseless and not give a shit its truly something special. Golisopod eats its lunch a bit like really it isnt impossible to get around w no reliable recovery. Scizor was way worse for that shit.
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Kinda mixed on Sneasler TBH. Def don't doubt its quite strong - particularly against HO builds where it sweeps these frail comps quite easily - but against the standard BO / Balance comps, the mon needs several roadblocks eliminated before it actually sweeps - namely Hippo & Tankchomp, in addition to several other key threats like Dirge, Pex (red card in particular is nasty for Sneasler) etc. Important to note that several of the aforementioned Pokemon are more easily able to run physically defensive spreads now with Mega Raichu & Mega Lucario Z being banned. Addition of Helmet is certainly annoying for it (as it getting phazed in by a Ground type & having its seed get prematurely activated lol, that shit fucking blows). Compared to SV OU, I will also say it is not quite as free for it to snag a Swords Dance vs a good swath of the metagame due to not having Tera. This is true against many staples such as Garchonp, Slowking and Corviknight, but even in other MUs such as Samu which has the option to Encore it if it tries setting up with SD. I'll even argue it does bring one notable positive with its presence by being a T-spikes absorber on Offensive teams.

Of course, I won't deny that Sneasler is extremely limiting for HO teams specifically- as all forms of these teams - from webs, to standard Glim teans get completely farmed by Sneasler once their resources have been exhausted (which isn't too hard to do). There prob is some tech that should be explored to handle it - like Red Card - but regardless i do get wanting to axe Sneasler from this angle.

Mostly agree on Gambit & I will prematurely extend the issues it has to Metagross as well. These Pokemon are quite good but even beyond getting annoying by stuff like Helmet Corv & Tankchomp, a key issue for me is how difficult it becomes to handle the broken Fire-types when running these pokemon. Especially with Metagross - running it while having sufficient countermeasures to the Fire-types (notably Volcarona & Zard X) & hazards (which it really hates) is just a logistical nightmare. In Metagross's case, I also am not too big on how it overlaps with both Slowking-G & Corv defensively, wheras i dont like how Gambit overlaps with Samu who provides broken support. Pair then together ig but then you have to account for these issues that come with that like Mega Meganium being a nightmare, Stuff like Volcarona or Sneasler becoming more difficult to deal with, etc.
 
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Aluvrd said:
Newbie here tryna get into comp any tips as the main game/tier i wanna focus on is Champions and OU in particular?
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U might wanna take a look at the sample team section to find what team u are comfortable with. U wanna know the important interactions between Garchomp, Corviknight, G-Slowking and H-Samurott. Keep an eye out for Grassy Terrain Offense team and know to to silence their Sneaslers. I will be happy to walk u through the meta tonight an invite to the discord if you are interested
 
With Hawlucha Pro Max Being Gone that will Make the Tier Much More Manageble Now.

Defensiv Pokemon Like :slowking galar: :garchomp: :corviknight: :clefable: are not Afraid Anymore to get OHKO'd By Sneasler and don't Need Run Stuff Like Colbur Berry Glowking Anymore or are now Better Against other Threads in the Meta.

:lopunny mega: :pawmot: :hawlucha: with Sneasler Being Gone Other Fast Fighting Types can now Take the Place. Mega Bnnuy has Strong Anti Offense Tools Like Fake Out Mach Punch, or can Run SD 3 Attacks to be a Late Game Thread. Pawmot Lose Another Competition which is Good because is Still a Strong Breaker and Pivot in One but is More Fragile then Sneasler and Mega-Bnnuy Meanwhile Base-Hawlucha Looks with the Current Bans more Promesing thanks to Fighting Flying Stab Combination, and that Zapdos is not in the Game, but still has Less Power and Lacks even at +2 to OHKO's Most Strong Defensive Mons.

:rillaboom: Sneasler Loss is Annoying, but there are Still Enough Good Teammates to Compremise the Lost.

:skeledirge: It has still his Place in the Meta, But Checking Sneasler was One of them if it's Not getting Dire Claw Hex or get Demolished By Hazards.

Yeah Overall Sneasler Banned is Very Good, But i Still Hope that Hamurott get a Suspect Test this Thing Still Warps the Meta and Makes Offensive Far more Opressive then it Should be.
 
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After the recent news abt Sneasler’s ban, the long life king of Terrain Offense has returned.

:Hawlucha:
Hawlucha @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 32 HP / 32 Atk / 2 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Substitute / Roost / Encore / Taunt

There are some pros and cons abt this guy:
Pros:
+ Amazing STAB combination, only be resisted by Aegislash at the current moment.
+ Its defensive typing can prey on sth like Tank Chomp, Pex, Bulky Excadrill and setup pretty easily after a Subs.
+ Other utility options such as Roost, Encore & Taunt also prove to be quite robust in terms of game-changing decision.

Cons:
+ Hawlucha wont benefit much from Terrains besides activating Seeds.
+ It cannot setup on strong Fairies such as Clef and Prim, unlike Sneasler.
+ Its overall dmg output is significantly lower.

TLDR: Hawlucha is an exciting, welcoming addition to Terrain Offense team. I can’t wait how the meta will adapt to it.
 
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I don't really agree with the reasoning for quickbanning Sneasler. This Pokemon was significantly more overwhelming for HO teams than it was balance teams as the announcement post suggests. I am also confused why this Pokemon was QBed while we gave Mega Raichu Y a suspect?

Regardless, its w/e. I'm hoping this means that other Pokémon that need action taken against like Blaziken or Zard X also get QB'd.
 
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