• Follow our Instagram!
  • Curious about what we're currently doing about bots? Check out the latest updates from staff in this thread.

Resource ADV OU Viability Ranking and Metagame Discussion

Yes I agree that there are offensive teams that drop spikes. I was trying to explain that it's weird to classify mixed offense as purely spikeless. Forre can contribute by spiking and being a trader with boom. The offenses giraffe is/was making still have a heavy trading gameplan (mixed offense) but also have spikes. Could be wrong tho
Spikes increase in average utility the more switches that are forced with layers down.

Momentum on offense is maximized by forcing trades sequentially from a dominant position without conceding momentum by switching against opposing threats. Sets like End Pert on offense, therefore, are preferable to Protect or Focus Punch Pert who are walled by common Pert checks, ceding significant momentum.

There are some mons that prey on the passivity of common defensive threats, but few offense mons enjoy switching into defensive threats with status moves, particular under Sand with Spikes down.

I consider mixed offense to exclusively be those team styles that rely on bulky offensive pieces that aim to rely on natural bulk to abuse passivity and wear down an opponent with hit and run tactics. I think those teams have been largely phased out, replaced by Spikes-based versions of the same archetypes or more balanced/bulkier takes with tools like Wish and Spin. Cune has replaced Off Pert, and those styles tend to have a long-term game plan of funneling to Cune or finding a moment to break through with Lax.

It is logical, as you said -- as I was attempting to illustrate -- to use Spikes to overcome the limitations of mixed (pivoting) offenses whose game plans rely on high damage-output without trading.

I see the problem as two-fold.

First: These Cune teams struggle to solve the (Skarm)Gar problem. I think the use of SpD Cune has largely solved BKC's criticisms of Lax teams being Molt-weak, and I think these teams should be solid vs Mix Mence. I'm looking at Light Screen Rest Zap (and other screeners) on these comps and making use of the defensive momentum these teams generate to reclaim some space for maneuvering now that Zap can't revenge set-up common partners, but the common problems with Cune are that you need to deal with Spikes, Sand, and Gengar, and the partners that absorb Wisp concede momentum in a way that is difficult to reverse, bar Guts Fighters.

You could bring Pursuit support, but bringing your own Sand in Tar (or something defensively useless in Doom, offensively in Umbreon) is a hefty tax to pay for Cune and Lax. Guts fighters are Dug-bait and unreliable for bulkier teams defensively -- Salac Hera can anchor but that better suits the tempo of momentum teams, no? At what point is it better to abandon offense in favor of Blissey-based approaches, and is the difference only preferring Lax's mu-spread to Bliss's into a scout? Being weak to the strongest offensive Spikes approach as one of the best options for positional offense isn't a great indicator for the health of offense.

The second issue is that Dugtrio traps mons like Wish Jira, Raikou (potential WoW absorber, with Rest!!), DD Tar, etc. who could thrive on these teams and offer serious compensation, but the problem is more salient with more momentum based approaches. End Pert, CM Jirachi, Tar (still), fighters, etc. all hate Dug, which serves to patch very passive teams that sacrifice pressure and speed in every non-Dug slot, foregoing a balanced approach. I think you can solve one of these problems. I feel that Gar's presence is healthier than Dug's, but the pincer effect of culling so many options is suffocating.

I don't need to further expand, since I've made my points elsewhere, but I think the polarization between extremely slow teams and very fast ones and centralization around Spikes means that ADV's middle class loses out. I'm not saying I want to see a MagDol ressurgence. I'd rather that the Pokemon of the tier are allowed to shine a bit more without being held back by the most extreme and unbalanced Spikes approaches.

To conclude, I'd like to address people who ask why we don't ban Skarm or any other mons that are more centralizing than Dug. Doesn't seem genuine, but in short: there's always some amount of centralization that is necessary for a healthy tier, and I'd rather nerf those centralizing forces by taking away game-breaking synergies rather than chucking the baby out with the bath water. In any case, I think the mons that would be good in a Spikeless ADV (not Skarmless, but Spikeless) should be usable in ADV with Spikes, and the mons that are only good because of Spikes streamline building and reduce the expression in the builder in a way that is anticompetitive in my mind.

People complain about non-mainers who never tap in, beg for pokepastes, and end up farming or winning with less technical play because they're in the right jerk, getting the right prep, or picking up samples. I think the anti-Samples argument is ridiculous because more resources allow for growing the community. I think the emphasis should be placed on how large the advantage a player can get in the builder on match-up, and I think that Dug teams create very imbalanced mu-spreads. So you're choosing between playing a narrow band of honest teams that allow play into the meta at large at the cost of real diversity or using somewhat worse options that bleed value against the best-built teams.

In short, I think players should be rewarded for creativity and exploration in the builder -- able to get an edge that scales with technical ability -- but the tools shouldn't be so busted but imbalanced that the game comes down to RPS checking to see if you are overprepared for the gatekeepers and leaving openings for flawed jank or vice versa.
 
Yes I agree that there are offensive teams that drop spikes. I was trying to explain that it's weird to classify mixed offense as purely spikeless. Forre can contribute by spiking and being a trader with boom. The offenses giraffe is/was making still have a heavy trading gameplan (mixed offense) but also have spikes. Could be wrong tho
I think the main things to ask about Spikes on so-called mixed offense is that
0) what makes mixed offense looks like mixed offense?
1) if you don't have something super fast (Starmie and above), can you win the endgame?
2) games are short, is spikes chip worth it?

In 2020 or so Altina used to do the same thing to me that giraffe is doing to himself, that is, adding Spikes onto mixed-offense looking things that were recently built, and they worked pretty well. Many of those teams used Skarm/Meta/OffDol which provided the (0) double booms characteristic of mixed offense while also being (1) a solid enough defensive backbone that you need to run Skarm teams (Dol is a great electric pivot) and (2) rack up some pivoting chip damage. Now you guys decided to use Spikes and boom in (0) one mon, Forre, and (1,2) defensive compression in another boom mon, Registeel. So as far as I see it, this new trend works and functions quite similarly to a historical precedent.

Empirically speaking, I see that these conditions can all still be satisfied quite nicely.
 
Last edited:
SubCM entei fits on mixed offense. I'm drafting a longer write-up explaining my list, gimme like a week or something
I took 1 look at entei, saw that it was a worse sub cm jirachi while having more weaknesses than raikou (also slower than gengar unlike raikou), and dismissed it. But I haven't actually teambuilt with it. So now I'm intrigued. Maybe I've been lucky so far that I haven't had to fight against entei yet.
TBH your tierlist looks like bait/trolling but I feel like there's at least a hint of truth to it. I'm prepared to face all common ttar sets, but i struggle against forre. I have answers to all common blissey sets, but I have a negative winrate against articuno. Maybe your sources/data is simply "which mons give made0fmoss the most trouble" lmao
 
I think the main things to ask about Spikes on so-called mixed offense is that
0) what makes mixed offense looks like mixed offense?
1) if you don't have something super fast (Starmie and above), can you win the endgame?
2) games are short, is spikes chip worth it?

In 2020 or so Altina used to do the same thing to me that giraffe is doing to himself, that is, adding Spikes onto mixed-offense looking things that were recently built, and they worked pretty well. Many of those teams used Skarm/Meta/OffDol which provided the (0) double booms characteristic of mixed offense while also being (1) a solid enough defensive backbone that you need to run Skarm teams (Dol is a great electric pivot) and (2) rack up some pivoting chip damage. Now you guys decided to use Spikes and boom in (0) one mon, Forre, and (1,2) defensive compression in another boom mon, Registeel. So as far as I see it, this new trend works and functions quite similarly to a historical precedent.

Empirically speaking, I see that these conditions can all still be satisfied quite nicely.
I think both taking spikes out of spikes teams and putting spikes on spikeless teams are good building exercises and lead to great ideas. Giraffe really made a whole new world of possibilities with his dd fb bb mence spikes builds, both fixing usual mixmence build issues (for example, not being able to run pert cause u lack breaking and anti aero gameplan) and some ddmence issues (not being able to be used effectively midgame because pivotting in and out without spikes feels bad). Theres a lot to be learned still but i really like this type of approach.
 
I think both taking spikes out of spikes teams and putting spikes on spikeless teams are good building exercises and lead to great ideas. Giraffe really made a whole new world of possibilities with his dd fb bb mence spikes builds, both fixing usual mixmence build issues (for example, not being able to run pert cause u lack breaking and anti aero gameplan) and some ddmence issues (not being able to be used effectively midgame because pivotting in and out without spikes feels bad). Theres a lot to be learned still but i really like this type of approach.
I agree that the exercise of taking spikes teams and making them spikeless makes you really think hard about how you can explore the whole spectrum.

And I agree that giraffe and Fruhdazi has popularized DD MixMence in these recent times.

But let's also recognize the historical precedent of Spikes DD MixMence as I mentioned in the SkarmDug offense section of my team share post. Namely, I think McMeghan's highly popular 2021 team below was an important step in opening the spectrum of DDMixMence builds and one should acknowledge the continued nature of the development. See:

https://www.facebook.com/SmogonU/po...t-core-out-there-check-out-o/819284510238386/

 
I agree that the exercise of taking spikes teams and making them spikeless makes you really think hard about how you can explore the whole spectrum.

And I agree that giraffe and Fruhdazi has popularized DD MixMence in these recent times.

But let's also recognize the historical precedent of Spikes DD MixMence as I mentioned in the SkarmDug offense section of my team share post. Namely, I think McMeghan's highly popular 2021 team below was an important step in opening the spectrum of DDMixMence builds and one should acknowledge the continued nature of the development. See:

https://www.facebook.com/SmogonU/po...t-core-out-there-check-out-o/819284510238386/

for sure, but i think the inclusion of hp fly and full atck investment makes the giraffe approach a lot different and better at doing usual ddmence things; ofc its important to recognize the origins tho.
 
:Blaziken: :Breloom: :Hariyama: :Heracross: :Machamp: :Medicham:

From the perspective of a more casual player who sometimes posts here but hasn’t in a while, I wanted to voice my opinion on the Fighting-Types of ADV OU. Fighting as a Type is in a weird situation where it can seem to find much of an identity. At first glance one would think Fighting is a good Type in this tier because of Tyranitar, Blissey, and various Steel-Types being as impactful as they are, as well as the age-old sentiment that every viable team needs a Rock resist. The six Fighting-Types most often seen in the tier all have their own issues holding them back, though, and I feel like there’s a reason why these are among the most considered options for tiering changes.

The first issue comes from the Type itself. The tier’s best three Steel-Types in Skarmory, Metagross, and Jirachi are all not weak to Fighting so there’s only so much they can do about that, but Flying being as omnipresent as it is, Psychic still being good, Ghost (usually Gengar) being really valuable, and the predictable nature of Fighting-Types wanting to click their STAB into some of those top-tiers being exploitable are all points against it. Fighting-Types in this generation also tend to be on the slower side and most of them really don’t care for passive damage- all six of those Pokémon are vulnerable to Sandstorm and Spikes, as well as Toxic damage though some can make use of Guts, only Breloom is immune to Leech Seed and only Blaziken is immune to Burn status. Overall offensively, even with ADV having more viable options than GSC, I wouldn’t say the Type is as good as it might look. Defensively, they only have two weaknesses, sure, but their low Speed and lack of too many useful resists outside of the Rock one means most Fighting-Types can usually be dealt with fairly easily by common structures and smart play.

At various points, OU has not had very many of these Pokémon officially ranked within it, and part of the issue here is that teams will rarely need to run multiple Fighting-Types, even if there is one that suits the needs of the team nicely. Their use cases all tend to be on the specific side, if not completely niche, and in this meta it’s hard to say how many of them are actually what I would consider true OU staples. Even Heracross isn’t what it used to be way back when. But what do you think?
 
:Blaziken: :Breloom: :Hariyama: :Heracross: :Machamp: :Medicham:

From the perspective of a more casual player who sometimes posts here but hasn’t in a while, I wanted to voice my opinion on the Fighting-Types of ADV OU. Fighting as a Type is in a weird situation where it can seem to find much of an identity. At first glance one would think Fighting is a good Type in this tier because of Tyranitar, Blissey, and various Steel-Types being as impactful as they are, as well as the age-old sentiment that every viable team needs a Rock resist. The six Fighting-Types most often seen in the tier all have their own issues holding them back, though, and I feel like there’s a reason why these are among the most considered options for tiering changes.

The first issue comes from the Type itself. The tier’s best three Steel-Types in Skarmory, Metagross, and Jirachi are all not weak to Fighting so there’s only so much they can do about that, but Flying being as omnipresent as it is, Psychic still being good, Ghost (usually Gengar) being really valuable, and the predictable nature of Fighting-Types wanting to click their STAB into some of those top-tiers being exploitable are all points against it. Fighting-Types in this generation also tend to be on the slower side and most of them really don’t care for passive damage- all six of those Pokémon are vulnerable to Sandstorm and Spikes, as well as Toxic damage though some can make use of Guts, only Breloom is immune to Leech Seed and only Blaziken is immune to Burn status. Overall offensively, even with ADV having more viable options than GSC, I wouldn’t say the Type is as good as it might look. Defensively, they only have two weaknesses, sure, but their low Speed and lack of too many useful resists outside of the Rock one means most Fighting-Types can usually be dealt with fairly easily by common structures and smart play.

At various points, OU has not had very many of these Pokémon officially ranked within it, and part of the issue here is that teams will rarely need to run multiple Fighting-Types, even if there is one that suits the needs of the team nicely. Their use cases all tend to be on the specific side, if not completely niche, and in this meta it’s hard to say how many of them are actually what I would consider true OU staples. Even Heracross isn’t what it used to be way back when. But what do you think?
one of them is a really cool looking bug
one of them deals a bazillion damage
another one is a mushroom dinosaur with a one-shot kill move(spore)
sumo guy
human man with two more arms
super sentai bird

yeah, they definitely have weaknesses that keep them from being at the top of usage or whatever, but being able to throw around the damage they deal(killing/trading) is a valuable niche, STAB focus punch rules. Their unique weaknesses require unique support, yes, but after playing a ton of Blue Offense(and the other version with medi lead) on ladder(also el stupido, shoutouts Rainer24 ), i've really grown to appreciate what these fellas can do

Gengar forcing some annoying 50/50s is, imo, the biggest pain for this crew

I have more to say but gotta go to work
 
Last edited:
I want to add context here because 1) I have an ego, 2) I feel like this misrepresents a lot of the shit I've been repping for a minute, and 3) I feel like Fruh and I are more uniquely poised to address your call for meta analysis, but he's in tour prep mode, so now you have me

Let's get the record clear: DD Tar/Steel/End Pert/Kou/DD Mence was my concoction, and I labbed modifications with Fruh in preparation for JI2. Credit to his hard work and contributions, but I'm very much the theoretician motivating the use of End Pert, off-beat DD Brick Mences, and Registeel on Spikeless trapless offense and Skarm + Spin. He introduced me to the Forre fit in SPL, and I found a way to make it a robust archetype, including identifying optimizations in Tar's sets, and together we found optimal coverage on Tar, with him doing the testing and I much of the theorizing (s/o Vapi for the Grass Steel nod, which was pivotal) and initial sketching. I share my stuff with everyone, so I'd appreciate it if all of the details I worked hard to discover wouldn't be entirely attributed to Fruhdazi at this point, especially when the details reflect collaboration or decisions made for the community. Credit where due -- I don't care if we speak about these things without giving credit, but I bristle when I see my entire body of work and effort misattributed with my name erased.

The second point I will make is that the loudest voices in favor of a Dug ban have been Fruhdazi and I. These builds I sketched specifically as a patch to solve the Dug problem. That being said, I remain strongly anti-Dug, and I don't see my adaptation to Dug as proof of Dug's healthy existence in the metagame. I've continually argued that Dug's footprint cannot be fully understood by what we see in play that thrives despite Dug but rather by the hidden graveyard of archetypes and sets that are never used because of Dugtrio's inclusion. I contend that Dugtrio exists in a perpetual arms race of setting the standard for stall teams, those teams being counter-teamed, and readjusting to establish a new norm for defensive compositions.

I would also like to argue that while I have proposed certain antidotes with my work to Johnald's (and Vapicuno's) contributions in updating CuneDug comps with my Registeel Spikes builds, those games remain highly technical and those teams are robust enough that there is a reasonable argument to be made that the better player will win the game fairly consistently due to the technique required to play both sides of that match-up.

To that extent, I think that CuneDug -- to your point about Cune's Spike in viability -- sets the tempo for the rest of the tier, and one can argue that Raikou is seen as an RPS (read: fishing) option for low-Dug scouts because it's difficult to patch for multiple Duggable threats on a team, and I would argue that Registeel trading one-for-one with Dug on slop by booming or Countering is one of the few antidotes -- Steel is less Duggable than Kou or Pert, even, so I challenge your claim about Steel being highly Duggable or its absence highly punishable. Maybe Spec off and AeroDug can challenge that notion, but that's a very nuanced topic for another day. For now, I'll keep this section short, but I want to note that this is why I feel Cune has jumped in viability and that I believe Dugtrio falling on the list is largely cosmetic and likely does not reflect any real shifts in actual viability, in my understanding of the tier.

Is it good that the best style of team can't be game-planned in the builder? I think that it lends itself to stagnation and tier-death. I still have two ideas I'm working on which might flip that dynamic on its head, but one of them is with another Pokemon I wouldn't mind to see banned in Gengar, as it gatekeeps high-viability options in a similar way to Dugtrio, and the other is a patch that attempts to address both Dug and Gar for bulkier offenses. It's a fine line to thread between running bulky enough to avoid Dug traps, fast enough to avoid getting run over by Skarmory and Spikes, and capable of absorbing WoW and coverage from Gengar.

I'd say that (Tar +) Gar Spikes and Bliss + Dug Spikes are centralizing, and I'd like to center the discussion on cores and comps rather than individual mons, because so much context is lost by zooming in on those individual mons when it's the synergies that create the context for every match-up and interaction. And I'd like to make the point that offensive options are short on Gar checks because Baton Pass Zapdos can't hold momentum worth a damn without Speed Pass to help it, and it's hard (impossible?) to compress WoW absorbers into a non-SpD slot without serious consessions. Recall BKC's video essay on why Lax is terrible in ADV because contemporary Lax teams relied heavily on Lax dueling Gar.

Offense is so gatekept by Spikes offense and stall that the tier is polarizing around Spikes. Every mixed offense idea I've come up with in the last years I've updated and upgraded by adding Spikes (see brainrot, Forre Spikes comps). Every time I've brought up Dug's brokenness, I've gotten a response that Skarm is more centralizing. I'd argue that it's only because Skarm fits with Gar and with Dug that it is oppressively centralizing rather than centralizing in a purely healthy way, but I digress. My concern is that Spikeless offense probably just sucks because Spikes make everything but CuneLax offense better, and I think CuneLax being good is generally good for the tier.

My ideal ADV is one in which the tier is centralized by mons that offer real defensive and offensive utility simultaneously, and teams that have extreme compartmentalization accent the tier rather than setting the tempo. I think Bliss's bulk and utility makes it a healthy force for ADV. I think it's strong fit with shitmons -- Ghost-types and Dugtrio in particular -- turns a mon with 0 offensive presence into a tier-king in a way that kills the diversity of Spikeless approaches that require real skill and thought to craft and play. I know some people disagree with my assessment that Gar is a serious problem and believe that Dug and/or Gar keep the tier fresh and balanced, but I think a tier with Dug (and Kou or Jira or even Mag, if they're so scary absent Dug) banned is probably more dynamic and healthy without creating serious headaches in the builder. Just my two cents.
GOATraffeFromHolland has far deeper insights into the game than me and I just appreciate his take on the meta. Fruh is a great pilot of slop, but I really admire your craftsmanship on the builder. Yet, I feel the need to inquire about your last paragraph: I'd argue that Blissey herself doesn't have 0 offensive presence - simply because of the existence of CM Bliss. This is certainly not the standard Blissey set, but due to the sheer bulk of Bliss, it's perfectly feasible to get a few CMs under her belt and start hitting hard with BoltBeam.
Keep on the good work.
 
Back
Top