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SPL IX - Commencement Thread
- Thread starter OP
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Well, I guess rigging the tournaments they are participating in is at least some kind of payment, I guess. Just. Guessing...
If i i were a td id be happy getting my position removed tbh, its such a terrible job
A fish rots from the head, not much else to say
Back in...hmm
Back in poeks era integrity never existed, they just laugh about it circlejerking on each other’s lawns, but I digress
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Imagine having a killer who admitted his crime, but the guard says "sorry lady, your kid has been killed and this guy admitted, but there's no video". Prisons would be empty ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I love using murder as an analogy for spl decisions
[7:38 AM] Nails: wait hold up
[7:38 AM] Nails: do people not view team leaks as a thing that happens and something that is on the players to prevent
[7:39 AM] Nails: and if you test with the wrong guy and get snaked it's not GG
[7:40 AM] Nails: not that i'd snake but
[7:40 AM] Nails: if u give out the info it's out
[7:41 AM] tinman: yeah idk i didn't think people leaking was something that would cause tourbans
[7:41 AM] tinman: like
[7:41 AM] tinman: especially if you're external
[7:41 AM] tinman: if someone on a team intentionally sabotages said team ya that's cancer
[7:41 AM] tinman: but if its literally some random guy
[7:41 AM] tinman: idk
[7:41 AM] Nails: a player on the team snaking is a tour ban for sure
[7:41 AM] Nails: a player off the team? you took a risk
[7:42 AM] Nails: there's a solid chance of your team getting improved from the playtest and suggestions they made
[7:42 AM] Nails: and a nonzero chance u tested with the wrong dude
[7:38 AM] Nails: do people not view team leaks as a thing that happens and something that is on the players to prevent
[7:39 AM] Nails: and if you test with the wrong guy and get snaked it's not GG
[7:40 AM] Nails: not that i'd snake but
[7:40 AM] Nails: if u give out the info it's out
[7:41 AM] tinman: yeah idk i didn't think people leaking was something that would cause tourbans
[7:41 AM] tinman: like
[7:41 AM] tinman: especially if you're external
[7:41 AM] tinman: if someone on a team intentionally sabotages said team ya that's cancer
[7:41 AM] tinman: but if its literally some random guy
[7:41 AM] tinman: idk
[7:41 AM] Nails: a player on the team snaking is a tour ban for sure
[7:41 AM] Nails: a player off the team? you took a risk
[7:42 AM] Nails: there's a solid chance of your team getting improved from the playtest and suggestions they made
[7:42 AM] Nails: and a nonzero chance u tested with the wrong dude
You are 100% right, he took the risk and no one forced him. But are we really saying "sneaking is ok, if ur not mate because not involved", why is it ok to ruin a battle? Didn't the Mazar scandal happen because the teams got leaked, or was that because he used a bot and no one could dodge?
Always thought it was because team leaking is a sabotage of the game and should be punished because of that, if you forget your home's door open and a thief steals ur fault was giving him the chance, and his was stealing. But maybe i'm just a dreamer afterall.
Also i understand this is not a murder and never meant that way. I just wanted an analogy and that was the first thing that came im my mind, glad to see people understanding what a post mean and not just going nuts because of "he said murder in spl lolol!!!!"
Always thought it was because team leaking is a sabotage of the game and should be punished because of that, if you forget your home's door open and a thief steals ur fault was giving him the chance, and his was stealing. But maybe i'm just a dreamer afterall.
Also i understand this is not a murder and never meant that way. I just wanted an analogy and that was the first thing that came im my mind, glad to see people understanding what a post mean and not just going nuts because of "he said murder in spl lolol!!!!"
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actually it was more due to the analogy being extremely dumb and out of place
also likes
also likes
fucking poek man
fuck spl
On Sunday, March 11, a member of the TD team was provided with logs indicating that Gondra had been provided with information regarding Znain’s team. Due to the sensitive nature of the issue and the fact that there were three tournament directors on Gondra’s team, the entire TD team was not informed. Instead, a small group of TDs began investigating this.
After reviewing the evidence presented, there were two issues at hand: the leaking of the Znain’s team, and what misconduct (if any) took place by the Raiders as a whole and the TDs currently on their team.
Isa has posted the logs that were provided to the TD team, so there is no great purpose in going over those in detail in this summary. You can read them for yourselves here. I will point out that there were some inconsistencies within those logs (which will be addressed later).
While in general we don’t discuss procedural elements to our investigations, I think it’s worth mentioning here for the sake of transparency. As a general rule, we will try to act quickly in instances where the results will impact an ongoing tour, but we take our time with anything that does not have a clock on it. Posting evidence or results early can sometimes hinder an investigation, push people into deleting evidence or even result in us improperly enforcing a punishment.
In this case, the TDs who were investigating this issue quickly determined that none of the evidence indicated that Gondra himself was responsible for the leak, and that his activities did not warrant a tourban that would remove him from SPL. Once that was established, the investigation slowed down. As Isa deduced, there was reduced activity between Monday (when the TD team determined that no action could be taken against Gondra based on the evidence presented) and Thursday.
For that, I personally would like to apologize on behalf of the TD team to the tour community as a whole and the Classiest and Znain in particular. There was never an intention of sweeping this under the rug or ignoring this issue entirely, but that delay in action was unfair to the Classiest, who were the parties directly harmed by the leak and who deserved a prompter official response. While I know it’s a small consolation, we are currently discussing ways to better handle these issues in the future.
Anyhow, to summarize, we gained access to the final necessary logs to demonstrate that Miguelmart had tested with Znain and then provided them to Gondra on Thursday. While the team Znain used in the end was not exactly the same as the one provided, there were significant similarities, and although Gondra ended up using a team he had built prior to the leak, it was a clear and unfair advantage for Gondra. Based on this, the TD team infracted and tourbanned Miguelmart for leaking the team and dead gamed the Gondra v Znain game.
REGARDING THE RECEIPT OF LINKED INFORMATION:
This has long been a touchy issue. If you receive information of illegal activity or cheating, at what point do you have a responsibility to report it? What if you directly benefit from said activity? Historically we have been very hesitant to issue bans or infractions because people refused to turn in a friend.
Cases like team leaking are a place where these issues are especially apparent. Where is the line beyond which it becomes a punishable offense to not report a leak to another party? While we all agreed that in cases of direct collusion (where both parties conspired to obtain information illegally so that one or both parties could benefit from it), the receiver of said information could be infracted, what about cases where no such collusion had been demonstrated? If a friend comes to you and says, “Hey, I tested with your round 3 opponent yesterday, I have a pretty good idea he’s going to bring Pyuk stall,” are you at risk of a tourban if you do not report this information to a TD or your opponent?
Based on our current standards, the answer to that question is no. It’s an unsatisfactory answer for many, and even prior to this incident we had been discussing some ways to change this policy. Every single TD believes that there is a line where the receiver of leaked information becomes culpable, even if that line is not currently defined. This incident has reinforced a need for a better policy in that case; expect a change to the current rules in the very near future.
REGARDING IMPROPER CONDUCT BY TOURNAMENT DIRECTORS:
Alright, sorry for burying the lede; I’m well aware this is what most of you are concerned with. A big part of why this issue was so touchy, and why the TDs investigating wanted to take their time and investigate properly, was the potential involvement of multiple tournament directors (including the head TD). The logs that Isa provided and posted showed two of those TDs, Pearl and Jirachee, participating in the discussion when Gondra mentioned receiving leaked information. Pearl’s comments in the provided logs were fairly minimal and focused on the team selection itself, while Jirachee expressed some reservations about using the leaked information (“it’s against the code” and “he could be doing the same to u”). TDK did not appear to be present during any this conversation.
There were some issues with these logs. There were sections of the logs that were “blocked,” which indicates that they included content from a blocked user. From our investigations, we discovered that the person who provided the logs in question had Pearl blocked, which is why there was missing content. However, some of Pearl’s lines were included. When you are participating in a chat with a blocked user, their lines are hidden behind a banner that says “X BLOCKED MESSAGES,” and if you click on the banner, the blocked messages are displayed. The person who provided these logs displayed some of Pearl’s blocked messages, but not all of them. (You can see this clearly in this screenshot, where they clicked on Pearl’s first blocked message, but not the three blocked messages that followed.)
We attempted to obtain the information represented in these blocked messages, and we also discovered that large portions of this section were deleted from the team chat entirely. When asked about these deletions, TDK informed the TDs that he had been responsible for deleting the messages. While he was not present during the original conversation, he stated that he had found out after the game and deleted the logs. However, prior to deleting, he screenshotted those messages, and shared the screenshots with another user.
The screenshots in question, among other things, show the full content of Pearl’s comments during the conversation, which put things in a significantly different light. I am including them here:
The deleted information matches up with the blocked areas and the server’s audit log, and from discussing the issue with other individuals who were present during that chat (including the initial leaker), the TD team is confident that the deleted information is accurate.
While in an ideal world this information would have been reported, both Jirachee and Pearl spoke against the use of leaked content. Of far more pressing concern was the deletion of logs from the server. There are no rules against deleting content from a server you have administrative control over, and nothing in the logs shows that TDK supported Gondra’s actions or broke any rules, but that does not eliminate the fact that it is a serious breach of trust for any tournament director, much less the head TD, to be involved in such an action. TDK did retain the logs of what he deleted, and cooperated with the TDs investigating this matter when requested, but that does not change the fact that he acted inappropriately in this instance.
The TD team takes issues like this extremely seriously. We value all of the contributions TDK has made to the tour community (of which there are many) and are willing to believe that in general his intentions are good, but his actions here are clearly not acceptable for someone in his role. While it pains me to say this, the TD team has officially asked TDK to step down from his role as tournament director.
After reviewing the evidence presented, there were two issues at hand: the leaking of the Znain’s team, and what misconduct (if any) took place by the Raiders as a whole and the TDs currently on their team.
Isa has posted the logs that were provided to the TD team, so there is no great purpose in going over those in detail in this summary. You can read them for yourselves here. I will point out that there were some inconsistencies within those logs (which will be addressed later).
While in general we don’t discuss procedural elements to our investigations, I think it’s worth mentioning here for the sake of transparency. As a general rule, we will try to act quickly in instances where the results will impact an ongoing tour, but we take our time with anything that does not have a clock on it. Posting evidence or results early can sometimes hinder an investigation, push people into deleting evidence or even result in us improperly enforcing a punishment.
In this case, the TDs who were investigating this issue quickly determined that none of the evidence indicated that Gondra himself was responsible for the leak, and that his activities did not warrant a tourban that would remove him from SPL. Once that was established, the investigation slowed down. As Isa deduced, there was reduced activity between Monday (when the TD team determined that no action could be taken against Gondra based on the evidence presented) and Thursday.
For that, I personally would like to apologize on behalf of the TD team to the tour community as a whole and the Classiest and Znain in particular. There was never an intention of sweeping this under the rug or ignoring this issue entirely, but that delay in action was unfair to the Classiest, who were the parties directly harmed by the leak and who deserved a prompter official response. While I know it’s a small consolation, we are currently discussing ways to better handle these issues in the future.
Anyhow, to summarize, we gained access to the final necessary logs to demonstrate that Miguelmart had tested with Znain and then provided them to Gondra on Thursday. While the team Znain used in the end was not exactly the same as the one provided, there were significant similarities, and although Gondra ended up using a team he had built prior to the leak, it was a clear and unfair advantage for Gondra. Based on this, the TD team infracted and tourbanned Miguelmart for leaking the team and dead gamed the Gondra v Znain game.
REGARDING THE RECEIPT OF LINKED INFORMATION:
This has long been a touchy issue. If you receive information of illegal activity or cheating, at what point do you have a responsibility to report it? What if you directly benefit from said activity? Historically we have been very hesitant to issue bans or infractions because people refused to turn in a friend.
Cases like team leaking are a place where these issues are especially apparent. Where is the line beyond which it becomes a punishable offense to not report a leak to another party? While we all agreed that in cases of direct collusion (where both parties conspired to obtain information illegally so that one or both parties could benefit from it), the receiver of said information could be infracted, what about cases where no such collusion had been demonstrated? If a friend comes to you and says, “Hey, I tested with your round 3 opponent yesterday, I have a pretty good idea he’s going to bring Pyuk stall,” are you at risk of a tourban if you do not report this information to a TD or your opponent?
Based on our current standards, the answer to that question is no. It’s an unsatisfactory answer for many, and even prior to this incident we had been discussing some ways to change this policy. Every single TD believes that there is a line where the receiver of leaked information becomes culpable, even if that line is not currently defined. This incident has reinforced a need for a better policy in that case; expect a change to the current rules in the very near future.
REGARDING IMPROPER CONDUCT BY TOURNAMENT DIRECTORS:
Alright, sorry for burying the lede; I’m well aware this is what most of you are concerned with. A big part of why this issue was so touchy, and why the TDs investigating wanted to take their time and investigate properly, was the potential involvement of multiple tournament directors (including the head TD). The logs that Isa provided and posted showed two of those TDs, Pearl and Jirachee, participating in the discussion when Gondra mentioned receiving leaked information. Pearl’s comments in the provided logs were fairly minimal and focused on the team selection itself, while Jirachee expressed some reservations about using the leaked information (“it’s against the code” and “he could be doing the same to u”). TDK did not appear to be present during any this conversation.
There were some issues with these logs. There were sections of the logs that were “blocked,” which indicates that they included content from a blocked user. From our investigations, we discovered that the person who provided the logs in question had Pearl blocked, which is why there was missing content. However, some of Pearl’s lines were included. When you are participating in a chat with a blocked user, their lines are hidden behind a banner that says “X BLOCKED MESSAGES,” and if you click on the banner, the blocked messages are displayed. The person who provided these logs displayed some of Pearl’s blocked messages, but not all of them. (You can see this clearly in this screenshot, where they clicked on Pearl’s first blocked message, but not the three blocked messages that followed.)
We attempted to obtain the information represented in these blocked messages, and we also discovered that large portions of this section were deleted from the team chat entirely. When asked about these deletions, TDK informed the TDs that he had been responsible for deleting the messages. While he was not present during the original conversation, he stated that he had found out after the game and deleted the logs. However, prior to deleting, he screenshotted those messages, and shared the screenshots with another user.
The screenshots in question, among other things, show the full content of Pearl’s comments during the conversation, which put things in a significantly different light. I am including them here:
[9:15 AM] Gondra: Also mandex is dumb and the other day told me " i'm going to rape you with cb mamo" although he sure was lying
[9:15 AM] Gondra: :thinking:
[9:16 AM] Pearl: .
[9:16 AM] Gondra: :(
[11:17 AM] Gondra: ok ok a friend told me mandex asked him to test, he said it was for the spl and he use this http://prntscr.com/ipcfp5
[11:18 AM] Pearl: .
[11:18 AM] Pearl: so we're snaking now
[11:19 AM] Gondra: i only get good information :x
[11:19 AM] Kevin: thats fucked up
[11:21 AM] Gondra: this has a good MU against that http://prntscr.com/ipchnn
[11:21 AM] Gondra: maybe the only problem is diancie
[11:26 AM] champagnepapi: ...
[11:27 AM] Pearl: Gondra i don't like this much
[11:27 AM] Pearl: even tho we rly need the wins
[11:28 AM] Kevin: yeah thats just wrong
[11:28 AM] Kevin: you should probably tell him
[11:28 AM] Kevin: you dont need to cheat
[11:28 AM] Kevin: to beat him
[11:28 AM] Pearl: agree with kev
[11:28 AM] champagnepapi: it’s against the code.
[11:28 AM] Kevin: the code of harry...
[11:29 AM] Gondra: i didnt do nothing lol, one friend just tell me one of the teams who could use mandex
[11:29 AM] Kevin: yeah but like
[11:30 AM] Kevin: how did it happen
[11:30 AM] Kevin: exactly
[11:30 AM] Kevin: cause thats kinda fucked up
[11:30 AM] Gondra: and that team with sciz + boltb clef i had it from before that
[11:30 AM] Kevin: "hey bro i gotta test for spl"
[11:30 AM] Kevin: friend:
[11:30 AM] Kevin: "hey gondra mandex tested this potential spl team vs me"
[11:31 AM] Gondra: i asked him what he would use against mandex
[11:31 AM] Gondra: and then he tell me that team
[11:31 AM] Kevin: :x
[11:31 AM] Kevin: idk bro
[11:31 AM] Kevin: can you show the import
[11:31 AM] Kevin: of your team?
[11:31 AM] Gondra: http://pokepast.es/39d8a8fa9095c1c3
[11:33 AM] Pearl: i love this steamy set
[11:33 AM] Pearl: i think this clef could prolly use some sdef
[11:33 AM] Pearl: since lati is ur best keld switch in
[11:33 AM] Kevin: i agree
[11:33 AM] Kevin: i think medicham is not as threatening
[11:34 AM] Kevin: TDK what do you think of this team when you wake up you lazy fuck
[11:34 AM] Gondra: but im really not doing any cheat lmao
[11:34 AM] Gondra: i had done that team anyways
[9:15 AM] Gondra: :thinking:
[9:16 AM] Pearl: .
[9:16 AM] Gondra: :(
[11:17 AM] Gondra: ok ok a friend told me mandex asked him to test, he said it was for the spl and he use this http://prntscr.com/ipcfp5
[11:18 AM] Pearl: .
[11:18 AM] Pearl: so we're snaking now
[11:19 AM] Gondra: i only get good information :x
[11:19 AM] Kevin: thats fucked up
[11:21 AM] Gondra: this has a good MU against that http://prntscr.com/ipchnn
[11:21 AM] Gondra: maybe the only problem is diancie
[11:26 AM] champagnepapi: ...
[11:27 AM] Pearl: Gondra i don't like this much
[11:27 AM] Pearl: even tho we rly need the wins
[11:28 AM] Kevin: yeah thats just wrong
[11:28 AM] Kevin: you should probably tell him
[11:28 AM] Kevin: you dont need to cheat
[11:28 AM] Kevin: to beat him
[11:28 AM] Pearl: agree with kev
[11:28 AM] champagnepapi: it’s against the code.
[11:28 AM] Kevin: the code of harry...
[11:29 AM] Gondra: i didnt do nothing lol, one friend just tell me one of the teams who could use mandex
[11:29 AM] Kevin: yeah but like
[11:30 AM] Kevin: how did it happen
[11:30 AM] Kevin: exactly
[11:30 AM] Kevin: cause thats kinda fucked up
[11:30 AM] Gondra: and that team with sciz + boltb clef i had it from before that
[11:30 AM] Kevin: "hey bro i gotta test for spl"
[11:30 AM] Kevin: friend:
[11:30 AM] Kevin: "hey gondra mandex tested this potential spl team vs me"
[11:31 AM] Gondra: i asked him what he would use against mandex
[11:31 AM] Gondra: and then he tell me that team
[11:31 AM] Kevin: :x
[11:31 AM] Kevin: idk bro
[11:31 AM] Kevin: can you show the import
[11:31 AM] Kevin: of your team?
[11:31 AM] Gondra: http://pokepast.es/39d8a8fa9095c1c3
[11:33 AM] Pearl: i love this steamy set
[11:33 AM] Pearl: i think this clef could prolly use some sdef
[11:33 AM] Pearl: since lati is ur best keld switch in
[11:33 AM] Kevin: i agree
[11:33 AM] Kevin: i think medicham is not as threatening
[11:34 AM] Kevin: TDK what do you think of this team when you wake up you lazy fuck
[11:34 AM] Gondra: but im really not doing any cheat lmao
[11:34 AM] Gondra: i had done that team anyways
The deleted information matches up with the blocked areas and the server’s audit log, and from discussing the issue with other individuals who were present during that chat (including the initial leaker), the TD team is confident that the deleted information is accurate.
While in an ideal world this information would have been reported, both Jirachee and Pearl spoke against the use of leaked content. Of far more pressing concern was the deletion of logs from the server. There are no rules against deleting content from a server you have administrative control over, and nothing in the logs shows that TDK supported Gondra’s actions or broke any rules, but that does not eliminate the fact that it is a serious breach of trust for any tournament director, much less the head TD, to be involved in such an action. TDK did retain the logs of what he deleted, and cooperated with the TDs investigating this matter when requested, but that does not change the fact that he acted inappropriately in this instance.
The TD team takes issues like this extremely seriously. We value all of the contributions TDK has made to the tour community (of which there are many) and are willing to believe that in general his intentions are good, but his actions here are clearly not acceptable for someone in his role. While it pains me to say this, the TD team has officially asked TDK to step down from his role as tournament director.
Just because you say you don't like something that is wrong and still don't do anything about it still makes you guilty from my standpoint. It's one thing on the player's end not to say anything, as they aren't bound to uphold the same standards of honesty and transparency that the TDs do. However, you claim that "Jirachee and Pearl spoke against the use of leaked content", yet neither Pearl or Jirachee reported the breach to the rest of the TD team, so why is TDK taking the entire blame for the situation? I'm not saying that TDK is blameless at all, but I don't see how Pearl saying "I don't like this even though we need it" makes the other two innocent. It doesn't seem right to me.
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