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Actually agree though I didn't want to be the only one saying it. Bisharp alone hurts Latias while zeraora can u-turn out, choiced sets are a liability with pursuit everywhere, defog is risky, and Primarina getting even better never helps. In general Latias feels like less of a threat than Terrakion even, and definitely less than scizor/hydreigon.
S Rank will be the top of the top, incredibly dominant Pokemon who don’t really have any equal. A+ and A have room for other meta defining threats that may not either: affect the meta, be easy to fit on teams, have room for breaking through checks, or have versatility that the S ranks do.
I think Latias definitely deserves its spot in S. It can run so many things and being able to run so many sets increases its viability. Something terrakion doesn't really have, seeing as it only chooses. Electrium Z while running a psychic move is probably its best set right now imo with the uptick of primarina/luke usage. The adrenaline orb set with ice beam/draco/cm/psychic or hp fire is rather potent too, despite mane being used less (beating the most common trapper scarf krook is huge). LO 3 Attacks hits hard and has a fair surprise factor, same goes for specs. Scarf latias still does its job decently well and can provide healing wish support, which somewhat remedies its weakness to pursuit imo. Even less common sets like BoltBeam, Stored Power and Waterium can tear up teams going off the assumption they're standard cm/draco/psyshock/roost lati. With Terrakion, Celebi, Mienshao, and non scarf hydreigon being more popular I believe S represents latias very well. It's not hard to fit on to teams, affects the meta as it has through the gen, can consistently break through whichever check chosen, and remains versatile. (sry if worded awkwardly typed on mobile)
I feel safe speaking for the rest of VR council when I say Latias will remain S. Unless you’re running Mega Steelix, Bronzong, or garbage Muk, you’re never truly safe switching into a Latias as it CMs. Preventing it getting a free turn is also really hard as its awesome speed tier and typing give it so many opportunities (unlike something like Terrakion). Pursuit being everywhere, if anything, is an argument for Lati, and the most common trappers either cannot OHKO it or are outsped and die to +1 Givavolt (CB Scizor).
It’s lack of versatility is not relevant for dropping so long as its CM set remains dominant. That being said, I think it’s unfair to claim Latias isn’t versatile since most run CM Z-Move. Scouting for its Z-Move is a lot easier said than done, and even when you do there’s no guaranteeing it’s running a 3rd attack or Roost. Hard switching Emp in for example and pivoting into a Ground-type seems like a good play, but Lati can simply Gigavolt Empoleon on the switch before revealing anything. Another cool thing is that unboosted Devastating Drake does like 50-60 to an unevolved Steelix lmao. Fairy-types aren’t really a problem for it either as most struggle to take it down after a CM boost barring a crit.
Okay so this is going to be a pretty long post most likely but I want to give my opinions on Latias and some of these other noms.
Chesnaught B+-->B
I agree that this should drop, Chesnaught had a lot of hype and usage with the introduction of Bisharp and Zeraora two massive threats it could easily handle. It also appreciated the rise of Spikes HO which allowed it to compete vs Klefki as a Spike setter + Zera, Bisharp and Crawdaunt check. But since then these Pokemon have been seeing less usage, not so much in Bisharps case, which has greatly affected the niche it brought to a lot of Balance and BO teams. As mentioned it invites in a lot of threats running around right now which either set-up for free on it or can remove the hazards it sets without any fear.
Infernape A- --> A
I think Infernape is in a pretty good spot right now and deserves to rise also. The Nasty Plot set is without a doubt its best set which can put in work against any team not running a hard wall like Malt and Tentacruel. Ape has access to a plethora of sets which also makes it extremely unpredictable, personally I think the Mixed LO set has a lot of merit right now to lure in fairy or bulky water types and remove them from play. Infernape also got better as a Bisharp answer thanks to its typing + access to strong stab priority like Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch. Overall just a really strong Breaker/Sweeper that thrives in this current meta.
Kommo-oFrom A- to A
Kommo-o is so good right now and I think that is primarily due to its Clanger set. This Kommo-o set provides so much utility to teams but still provides so much offensive presence when it comes to breaking through Tentacruel, Slowbro etc. Personally I think Taunt + SR is the best combination making it a great hazard setter and stallbreaker, but it has the ability to run coverage options to help it against the Fairy and Scizor match-up with Poison Jab, Flash Cannon and Flamethrower. Not to mention Kommo-o has the potential to be a very scary DD sweeper but I do think there is some merit behind other less common sets like CB or Autotomize. Honestly just bump this boi up already.
Rotom-MB+ -> B
While I do enjoy using this Pokemon it struggles way too much right now especially with the monster that is Hydreigon running around that stops it in its tracks. Rotom-M struggles to bring a lot of offensive presence to teams right now because of the rise of these dragon types as defensively it can't provide too much. In terms of utility it can run status like Toxic and Will-O-Wisp or Defog but it faces so much competition to fulfill these roles especially with its counterpart Rotom-H running around. It should drop to B or as Bayb mentioned B-.
Hippowdon From A to A-
Hippo struggles quite a bit in the current meta especially when Gligar is seeing a lot more usage as a defensive ground type. While Hippo still performs its function as a M-Manectric check etc. it has struggled to combat against Zera who dropped not too long ago. It is also forced to run Toxic on almost every set because of Rotom-H which was mentioned before, otherwise it is completely walled by it. I won't say much else on this but yeah I think it should drop.
Terrakion From A+ to S
Honestly I'm not too sure on where this thing belongs. The raw power it provides is absolutely disgsuting and I personally don't enjoy how much impact it has on the game right now. It has forced the rise of things like Gligar, Palossand and Nidoqueen which aren't even hard walls because they can still be broken through depending on the set. Any team not carrying these has a hard time against it and while this can be applied to almost any Pokemon there is very little counterplay to stopping this thing pressing CB Stone Edge or +2 Rockium against said walls. Recently I have been using a shit ton of bulky DD Malt to act as my 'check' for this thing but that doesn't fair very well with the rise of Substitute sets which make it so much harder to RK with Scizor or Krook etc. I am leaning towards it being placed in S rank primarily due to these reasons and how it has the potential to restrict team building as a whole.
Latias From S to A+
Okay so here is the big one and honestly I think I could see it dropping to A+ but I plan to talk about both sides of Lati. Lati is always going to be a prominent threat in this tier and will threaten any team not running MegaLix, Muk and to less of an extent Scizor. It has incredible sweeping potential with Calm Mind and thanks to its speed tier it handles the base 108 running around the tier. It has a great typing which allows it to set-up on several threats in the tier however I think some of the arguments made right now have been leaning towards its set versatility which I plan to touch on.
So everyone can agree this meta running around with Pursuit trappers has greatly hurt Latias in-terms of how it can be played in games and I think the biggest issue has been Scarf Krookodile. With Gliscor leaving the tier, Krookodile got exceptionally better and very splashable for almost any team and archetype. Recently I have been running Crunch or encountering a few Crunch sets which also better handle Latias and alleviate the need to predict or be reliant on Knock Off vs Z-move Latias. Scizor is also a pretty big cockblock with the bulkier sets running around but I honestly think it has had less influence on this matter. Bisharp has definitely been a big issue for it but I don't think this is the biggest reasoning behind dropping Latias. With dark spam rising it was only natural fighting types would rise alongside it to check it which Latias has a field day with but the biggest issue I think it currently has is now the rise of Fairy types which check the afromentioned types. I would say the biggest one being Mega Altaria which has been seeing a lot more usage especially with its 3 Atks and DD sets. These fairy types also put a lot of pressure in terms of how effective Latias is right now.
In terms of set viability or versatility I don't think it has changed at all. It is still very versatile as it has always been with its Calm Mind sets being amazing sweepers/breakers whether it be Dragonium or Electrium or Boltbeam. I honestly think the LO + 3 Atks Latias is in a pretty decent spot as well and as others have mentioned there have been usage of other less common sets like Surf, Stored Power + Reflect Type etc. The one set I would say struggles the most is Choice Scarf as with these pursuit trappers and fariry types it is a lot more detrimental to be locked into Defog or Draco for example. So I don't think this is an effective argument to warrant it dropping.
So that's about all I wanted to talk about and maybe it is just personal experience and preference why I have been leaning to it dropping, as I haven't felt Latias having as much impact on teams I use or play against thanks to the reasons I made above. Of course there are the upsides to Latias which as pointed out no other Pokemon can achieve so maybe this isn't enough to push it out of S but I still wanted to get my opinion in there. There are some other Pokemon I wouldn't mind discussing like Zera or Crawdaunt but I'll save those for another post as this one ended up being longer than I expected lmao.
I agree on a rise to Infernape. It has a good dual STAB combo, the All out Pummeling Set is amazing right now, it has a good speed tier to overwhelm bulkier teams and it can run so many different sets, from physical, to special to mixed even Stealth Rocks is a pretty good set right now.
Infernape really deserves a rise, since the Scarfset is also able tooutpace the recently dropped Zeraora, Mega Beedrill and potentially scarfed Rotom Forms.
With the Usage of Hydreigon and also Bisharp it has the potential to pick them off with Mach Punch / Vacuum Wave (depending which set u run), Priority Attacks like Mach and Vacuum are pretty solid right now, due to Scarfed Hydra, so you yourself dont have to be scarfed to pick these threats off.
I also wanna point out, that U-Turn is still and will ever be a great option on Nape, since it gives you a great Momentum. Infernape from A- to A.
Agree here too, its not only the DDance Set, which can put in work currently, even mixed Life Orb is pretty cool, same thing as a defensive Stealth Rocks Setter, since its bulk allowsw it to withstand some hits pretty well.
Kommo-o is really fantastic right now as I see it on alot of different builds and it always puts in a good portion of work. Kommo-O from A- to A.
I strongly disagree with this nomination because as Adaamsaid, Latias doesn't have a lot of Pokemon to deal with it. One of its best check is Muk-Alola which is trully bad in the current metagame. Latias can deal with ease with Pokemon like Empoleon thanks to Electrium Z which is a super threatening set for Balanced Team atm. Latias is definitively not "a mon having so many answers that it gets overwhelmed". Things like Scizor, Empoleon, Primarina get blown away by Gigavolt Havoc (Empoleon takes 73.1-86.5% on an unboosted Gigavolt Havoc which is a freaking lot considering it's one of the most common answer to Latias). On the other hand, Dragonium Z can break through so much Pokemon like Hippowdon or Steelix-Mega which needs some Wish support to deal with Latias. The rising of Fairy types doesn't bother Latias at all since it can deal with them with ease ; Altaria-Mega struggles vs Ice Beam Latias and need to be careful vs CM Psyshock or Psychium Z while Primarina and Togekiss get OHKO by Gigavolt Havoc. Sylveon lost its 1v1 vs CM + Roost/Recover Latias which means only Klefki can be annoying for Latias thanks to Toxic/Thunder Wave. But even Klefki needs to be careful because +1 Gigavolt Havoc does a lot and Hidden Power [Fire] can chip it. Since Klefki doesn't have a way to heal itself outside of Leftovers, it's a pretty shaky check to Latias. Latias is definitively one of the most centralizing Pokemon we have in Underused and I don't think it should drop at all. If some Choice Scarf Krookodile run Crunch, it's almost only to be able to ensure the OHKO after Stealth Rocks on Latias and for nothing else. It definitively shows how Latias put pressure on the Metagame. Also, Latias is not a Pokemon easy to scout and have so much potential with CM Dragonium Z (3 attacks or 2 attacks + Roost) ; CM Electrium Z (3 attacks or Bolt-Beam + Roost) ; Choice Scarf which brings support to it's teammates thanks to Trick/Defog/Healing Wish. Even CM LO/Soul Dew/Colbur Berry or LO 3 attacks + Roost can be good. Moreover, Latias is one of the best Pokemon to deal with things like Nasty Plot Infernape and it's also blessed thanks to its 110 BS in Speed which allows it to check / revenge kill naturally things like Infernape, Cobalion, Terrakion, Nihilego, Lucario or non-Thunder Wave Togekiss thanks to Roost/Recover. With that in mind, I struggle to believe that Latias is becoming worst and it should drop to A+.
InfernapeA- --> A Agree
Infernape is so versatile; being able to run special, physical, and even mixed sets very successfully. Before worrying about how to stop a given infernape set with your team, you have to first worry about identifying what set it is. What makes that really hard is infernape's ability to punish scouting, whether it be with a nasty plot on the switch, scarfed u-turn to keep momentum going, or getting off insane amounts of damage with a banded set. Taking a single misstep when playing around this threat could lead to your team completely falling apart. Pairing this versatility with its strong move pool, which has access to gunk shot for fairies like primarina, mach punch for priority, and strong stab attacks, I feel infernape is deserving of an A rank.
Lucario: I hadn't really given luc a chance in UU until recently. I was prepared to try it and put it down immediately, never to use it again, but I found it surprisingly really useful in the current metagame and i feel it should be moved from B+ to A-. Similar to infernape, Lucario can run physical or special sets, making it difficult to decide what to do when one comes in. Both sets get various forms of priority, including stab priority, which is always useful for a set up sweeper and makes up for Lucario's average speed. The Nasty Plot set is currently the best, being able to ohko top pokemon like scizor with an unboosted all out pummeling and clean up late game with vacuum wave prio. The tiers most common ghosts like gengar really can't come in due to the threat of taking an attack on the switch and many walls, like hippo, that are generally seen as safe switch ins get obliterated by +2 lucario, even without it using the z move. Even latias can go down to a resisted +2 all out pummeling after rocks. A- and B+ pokemon are seen as "non meta defining, but pokemon that still make their threat known". I feel that Lucario, having already been put in that pool, deserves to be recognized in the upper half due to the threat it poses.
Terrakion A+ to S: Disagree
Terrakion is an extremely powerful offensive threat that can put a lot of pressure on bulkier teams and is extremely difficult to switch into. However, Terrakion is not as splashable or metagame defining as Scizor or Latias or Hydreigon; it requires either heavy prediction to be brought in so it doesn't get weakened or it needs to have pivot support. While it only has very few switch-ins that can be broken through by certain sets, it can be punished or revenge killed and forced out after it KOes a Pokemon by a lot of faster threats or priority users. Its limited defensive utility and weakness to Scizor makes it awkward to use and fit on several teams, and while it can run SD Z-Move sets to punish checks, it's often awkward to set up with. Band sets can also be taken advantage of when Terrakion is locked into a move as well.
Kommo-o A- to A: Agree
Kommo-o is an extremely good Pokemon right now that can run a few solid options, but the rise in the SR set with Clanging Scales as said above has really helped it to shine. Its great mixed attacking stats and both physical and special STABs with solid power let it break trhough most Pokemon that aren't extremely bulky or resistant to its moves and Fairy-types. Decently fast Taunt and a good matchup against removers like Empoleon and Rotom-H helps it keep hazards up. Other options like Dragon Dance and even Swords Dance make it a lot more versatile too and give it the ability to beat some of its sturdier defensive checks as well as being able tp punish Fairy-types with Poison Jab too, which I think is grounds for a rise.
Primarina A- to A: Agree
Primarina is in a really good position right now because it appreciates the rise in both Dragon-types and Fighting-types. Its ability to switch into Hydreigon and Kommo-o easily without being weak to rocks like Togekiss or needing to Mega Evolve like Altaria helps it a lot; and its Water typing is also great for checking Infernape and Cobalion somewhat as well. Its Specs set's ability to come in on some of the threats it beats due to good bulk and amazing typing while punishing a lot of the metagame outside of its few resists like Tentacruel, Amoonguss, and Empoleon. The first two can be beaten by Specs Psychic as well, making the set extremely hard to switch into. Defensive RestTalk sets make better use of its typing and bulk to check the rise of Dragon- and Fighting-types more effectively.
Tsareena B- to B: Agree
Tsareena is rising as a really good offensive Bisharp check and solid option in general. Due to its immunity to Sucker Punch and access to High Jump Kick, the usual mind games offensive Pokemon have to play with Bisharp doesn't happen here. It can also use its priority immunity to punish Choice-locked Scizor as well. As an offensive Grass-type, it has a really good matchup against the rise in bulky Water-types; Primarina and Slowbro and Empoleon are punished a lot by it, and as Pak said, it has a lot of viable options to help against these Pokemon such as Lum Berry. As offensive hazard removal goes, Tsareena is extremely good, being able to punish a lot of hazard setters and actively force out and remove hazards against a lot of threatening Pokemon like Krookodile as well.
Froslasss: C- --> C+
Froslass is a great spiker which has been a lot less niche because of the extra abusers we currently have. Adaams team is being spammed all over with great succes, and Froslass got a fuckton of usage. It's a great spiker, being able to spinblock while also taunting defoggers. Its current ranking is definitely not reflecting its current viability in the metagame.
12/10/18 Update! Thanks for the great discussion we've had these past couple months and our apologies for taking so long to update the thread! Lots of changes incoming to reflect Bisharp and Zeraora having settled in the meta more since their introductions, so I hope you guys enjoy! Here's what we've got:
Rises
A- -> A
A- -> A
A- -> A
B -> B+
B- -> B
B- ->B
C -> C+
C- -> C+
UR -> C-
Drops
A -> A-
A- -> B+
A- -> B+
B+ -> B
B+ -> B
B+ -> B
B+ -> B
B- -> C+
C+ -> C
C+ -> C
C -> C-
Rise Reasonings:
Blissey has been able to showcase its utility on multiple builds outside of hard stall, fitting well onto bulky balance and hazard stacking builds in the recent iterations of Snake Draft and UU Open and being a very prominent part of both tournaments in general. In spite of the rise of several Fighting-types, it has proven to become a more important part of the metagame recently with surprising splashability, great consistency, and several applicable niches, justifying its rise.
Kommo-o has been on the verge of a rise for a few months now, though the surge in usage of its mixed Taunt + rocks set has defined its niche even further and solidified it as one of the tier’s best and most versatile offensive presences. Its unique set of tools has allowed it to establish its presence as a Pokemon capable of both defensively checking and offensively threatening huge portions of the metagame, while to a degree its influence can be seen in trends such as Chandelure and Stakataka’s declines and Florges’s slight replacement of Sylveon in higher level play. An A ranking is certainly reflective of what it can currently bring.
Primarina’s breaking and defensive sets have been flourishing in the Fighting-heavy metagame. Between increasing its versatility, synergizing well with common presences in Rotom-H and the tier’s many Fighting-types, and providing a strong check to prevalent threats like Infernape/Kommo-o/Hydreigon, it’s responded extremely well to the majority of recent metagame trends and is well worth placement above the other Pokemon in A-.
Doublade has seen a recent uptick in usage recently thanks to the current use of its typing. Despite the prevalence of Hydreigon, it offers a strong check to a lot of trending threats, like Terrakion, Kommo-o, Lucario, and Celebi, allowing it to cement more of a niche for itself in recent months while performing to a higher degree of consistency than a lot of what else sits in B.
AV Shao is broken.
Tsareena has become a much stronger pick as both a spinner and wallbreaker in recent weeks thanks to the unique niches it can provide with its set of tools. Its ability to free up the Water-type slot on the teams its fitted on as a Grass-type spinner give it pretty significant utility, while its abilities to act as a strong answer to Bisharp, function as a formidable wallbreaker, and spin against a large amount of staple hazard setters have all corresponded extremely well with recent trends and solidified a spot for it in B.
Palossand brings pretty significant utility to the table as one of the tier’s most capable Terrakion checks. Despite being mostly outclassed by Hippowdon, it can still act as a fine check to most Electric-types while resisting Scizor’s U-turn, spinblocking, and spreading status with Toxic. Its niches outside of checking Terrakion are pretty minimal in comparison to its competition, though it still does its job well and uses its other small advantages to distinguish itself enough for C+ to be perfectly justifiable.
Froslass has shot up in usage recently as a fantastic Spikes setter for hyper offense. Its typing and access to Taunt allow it to reliably do its job while access to techs like Icy Wind + Destiny Bond give it the means necessary to remove opposing hazard removers or great threats to its team entirely. The strength of several Spikes abusers in addition to the valuable traits Froslass has proven to bring to Spikes archetypes justifies a two-subrank rise to reflect its considerably increased relevance.
Durant is receiving a rank due to its potency as a sweeper with Hone Claws. While it faces immense competition from Scizor in its role, its better Speed tier, Rock-type coverage, and more immediate power can prove useful in more easily breaking past bulkier portions of the metagame and taking on conventional Scizor checks, like Infernape and Moltres, more reliably. It’s also seen some sparing use in UUPL that allowed it to showcase the potency of its Speed + the power of a Hustle-boosted Z-move, which further secures its niche and justifies placement in at least C-.
Drops reasonings:
Hippowdon is still a great defensive presence in the tier, though it is no longer by far and away the best bulky Ground-type it used to be and is dropping because of that. The increased exploration of options like Gligar, Nidoqueen, and Palossand, which can all provide various notable advantages of their own, eats into its niche some while also more heavily emphasizing its weaknesses, like its lack of a way to keep momentum up against Ground-type switch-ins like Latias or Hydreigon as well as its aforementioned competitors and its shakier matchups against the likes of Terrakion, Zeraora, and Cobalion.
Suicune has fallen victim to a lot of subtle adaptations the metagame has unintentionally made to it, which combined with its lacking usage, keeps it from having a presence in the tier notable enough for B+ to be justified. Between its heavy competition for a slot on teams with Pokemon like Empoleon and Mega Slowbro, the increased usage of sets like Electrium Z Latias and Z-move Terrakion, and the recently increased presences of Pokemon like Blissey and Celebi, it suffers from just enough shortcomings to still be great but no longer worthy of A-.
While Zeraora still has a place in the metagame, it is often too hard a Pokemon to harness to its full potential to warrant placement alongside Manectric and Rotom-H in A-, which can more reliably perform as Electric-types. Its four-moveslot syndrome intensified even further as the metagame began adapting to its presence, while its lack of immediate power and defensive utility also hinder it in a metagame that often calls on Electrics to answer to Pokemon like Scizor and Togekiss, which Zeraora can struggle to do. It’s currently disadvantaged enough in the meta for B+ to reasonably reflect how it compares to its competition.
Heracross, Rotom-C, Stakataka, and Volcanion have all become more outdated picks in recent months and are dropping to reflect this. Heracross isn’t nearly as reliable in a metagame that values defensive utility or Speed in its Fighting-types more than the sheer breaking power it used to be able to better set itself apart with. Rotom-C struggles to exercise its niche as an Electric-type that punishes Grounds well with Mamoswine, Gligar, and Nidoqueen all being decent presences in the tier, while Rotom-H can also generally provide more overall utility. Offensive Stakataka sets struggle to combat the rise in Pokemon like Chesnaught and Kommo-o while defensive sets are currently lacking in notable advantages over competitors like Klefki and Mega Steelix. Volcanion is a fearsome offensive force, but somewhat lacks an identity in the metagame and is losing some of its usage to other Water-type breakers like Primarina and Mega Blastoise.
Talonflame has had a tough time responding well to recent metagame trends, such as Rotom-H’s increased presence, Zeraora’s introduction, and the Slowbros finally finding some relevance in the tier. It also struggles to set up on a particularly large amount of threats in the metagame and competes heavily for a team slot with the tier’s several more reliable sweepers and Moltres, which is much more reliable in both offensive and defensive roles.
Metagross and Raikou are both dropping from C+ due to continuing to respond poorly to recent metagame trends. Bisharp’s recent introduction has further complicated Metagross’s ability to find a niche that isn’t team specific or generally outclassed, leaving it with even less to hang its hat on. Raikou sees barley any serious usage and struggles severely for a spot on teams with Zeraora now in the tier.
Silvally-Steel’s combined lack of usage and increased competition for a slot as options like Mega Steelix rise in usage is why it’s dropping to C-. It’s fairly comparable to Registeel right now in that both have considerable competition but unique sets of tools that justify their uses on various team compositions, which makes keeping the two ranked together fair.
Hope you guys enjoyed! Sage's internet went out so I'll be covering both this and rejected noms/discussion points in the post below. Thanks for reading and contributing! Be kind and happy posting :)
Rejected nominations and this time's discussion slate incoming. Enjoy!
Latias: Stay S
Latias has simply too many opportunities to take games by the horns throughout any match, thanks to its fantastic combination of traits. Its typing, coverage, versatility, and stats all combine to turn it into a Pokemon fully capable of warping the metagame around it to the degree of warranting S rank, and nothing has changed drastically enough for dropping to be fair right now, since even in spite of the rises of Bisharp and Steelix options like Electrium Z and Choice Specs Surf are seeing some play. Its degree of offensive and defensive centralization and influence over the tier is simply massive and what it currently brings to the metagame is fully that of a Pokemon you’d find in S.
Terrakion: Stay A+
Terrakion is very possibly the most overtly threatening offensive Pokemon in the tier, though that isn’t automatically synonymous with being the most defining presence around. It runs into a few shortcomings that hinder its ability to maintain the same influence as Scizor, Latias, or Hydreigon. Its subpar defensive utility limits its opportunities to come into play and begin exerting its power, while it also struggles with a lack of general set versatility or splashability, as well as the ability to be taken advantage of more easily than what currently sits in S, necessitating more support for it than what an S rank would indicate. While certainly fantastic and centralizing, it still has yet to quite compare to the most dominant of threats due to the flaws it runs into in several matches.
Lucario: Stay B+
Lucario has received a lot of well deserved hype as a fantastic stallbreaker and sweeper with its Nasty Plot set, though ranking it alongside Infernape wouldn’t represent where the two currently are in the metagame in comparison to one another. Lucario’s NP set has more reliability against bulkier builds, though Infernape’s typing, Speed tier, and customizability all provide significant advantages that give it more options in the metagame and allow it to be more applicable to different team needs. If Infernape were to rise Lucario also rising wouldn’t be out of the question, though for now the former’s versatility and reliability across the board justifies keeping the latter in B+.
Discussion Points:
Mamoswine A -> A-: Mamoswine has been disadvantaged by Rotom-H’s huge surge in relevance, though it also dislikes the healthy competition several other breakers and offensive rockers have recently been providing it with. Kommo-o, Primarina, and Nihilego among some other threats have been showcasing worth as either breakers of offensive hazard setters that compete with it for a slot, which has made it less of a staple pick on the one play style it can really fit well on. It still stands as one of the scariest breakers around, but a drop is worth bringing into question.
Infernape A- -> A: Infernape’s Nasty Plot set has been doing it a lot of favors in the metagame recently, abusing team structures that lack the few Pokemon capable of tanking its STAB attacks and retaining great matchups against several archetypes. Its mixed set has also seen great use as a reliable Scizor/Bisharp check upon using Slack Off more frequently, further adding to its customizability and the many positive traits it can provide to teams it’s fitted on. The issues it can run into regarding its frailty, struggle to combat the presence of threats like Latias and Mega Altaria, and its 4mss could keep it from rising from A-, though the arguments in favor of an upgrade certainly are compelling.
Rotom-H A- -> A: Rotom-H is slowly becoming a huge factor of the metagame thanks to the delightful role compression and utility it can bring to teams both offensively and defensively. It checks a huge portion of threats while checking multiple boxes for teambuilders and is only continuing its steady surge in usage in both tournament play and on ladder. Its inability to adequately damage the tier’s defining Dragon-types, struggles against bulkier Pokemon, and Stealth Rock weakness are all worth factoring into the discussion when assessing its viability, however.
Gligar B+ -> A-: Gligar checks a huge variety of threats in the UU metagame and is entering the discussion for the most useful defensive Ground-type the tier has to offer. Its ability to consistently check a huge array of threats while providing great utility in the forms of Defog or U-turn, crucial tools that its main competition in Hippowdon lacks access to, has been showcased very nicely in recent months. While it still runs into its fair share of flaws, whether or not its combination of tools allows it to be on par with Hippowdon, which also is a less sturdy check to trending options in Kommo-o and Hippowdon, is worth discussing at this stage.
Chesnaught B+ -> B: Chesnaught is still a great pick on account of its ability to check several threatening Dark-types, though as the metagame has adapted to Bisharp and Zeraora’s presences more Chesnaught’s weaknesses have become more pronounced. It often lets some of the tier’s harder offensive forces to work around, like Latias, Mega Altaria, Moltres, and Togekiss, into play for free while it can also struggle to check Water-types as reliably as it’d like to with Primarina and Mega Slowbro being strong picks. While still a great entry hazard setter, it may not be as urgent or strong a choice in teambuilding as when the metagame was slightly more frantic.
Crawdaunt B+ -> B: Crawdaunt is still a threatening breaker, though the metagame has begun adapting to its presence more in recent weeks. It faces heavier competition for a team slot on spikes offense due to the rise in a few different solid abusers, though it also doesn’t combat the further increased usage of Fighting-types well and doesn’t appreciate how strong of picks all of Kommo-o, Mega Altaria, and Hydreigon currently are. Dropping to B after recently rising seems to certainly be a possibility.
Gengar B -> B+: Gengar’s Substitute + Fightinium Z set has proven vital in allowing it to combat a lot of disadvantageous trends the metagame was throwing at it. Through its versatility it has found a way to better circumvent its Pursuit weakness than the majority of other Pursuit weak Pokemon in the metagame, while it has also appreciated the downfall of Alolan Muk and increased viability of a play style it fits well on in Spikes offense. It still struggles to retain really any defensive utility whatsoever and can still be easy to take advantage of, though its adaptations to its weaknesses are worth bringing up.
Chandelure B -> B-: Chandelure’s been on a decline for a while now and B- may be a better rank to reflect its current viability. It struggles to circumvent Hydreigon being the best it’s ever been while working around its weaknesses to Kommo-o, Pursuit trappers, and the general offensive metagame has proven to be more of a task than for Gengar. Whether it lacks an identity enough to stay B or still has the potential to shine is worth discussing more in depth.
Mega Pidgeot B- -> C+: Pidgeot hasn’t been a relevant part of the metagame for a long time now and continuing to drop could definitely reflect where it’s currently at in the metagame. It doesn’t provide many totally necessary tools in teambuilding compared to the benefits that Moltres and Togekiss can offer to larger degrees of consistency. It also lacks appreciation for Rotom-H’s upward surge in relevance and suffers from the opportunity cost of taking up a mega slot. If these flaws are worth dropping it further is worth currently talking about.
Swampert B- -> C+: It’s no secret that the metagame has been kinder to Swampert than it is now. Several Ground-types have much more applicable current niches and Swampert’s lack of recovery hinders it greatly in a metagame that calls on Ground-types to consistently check such a large variety of threats. However, it still provides teams with a reliable answer to Rotom-H, functioning as one of the sturdiest rockers against the oven, and also enjoys the benefits of its typing and bulk allowing it to consistently check Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Manectric, which is recently less inclined to run Hidden Power Ice, while acting as an emergency answer to Pokemon like Cobalion if need be.
agree with most of the noms, and i'd like to propose another:
B+ ---> A-
Amoonguss is among the best means of countering a large proportion of the metagame's current dominant theats. It's unique in its ability to check a bevy of S/A/A+/A- rank pokemon, checking/countering threatening mons such as scizor, m-alt, m-aero, krookodile, primarina, terrakion, bisharp, cobalion, shark, zeraora, and many more. Few, if any, other mons have the same ability to sponge hits from so many dominant threats while also avoiding being passive, which amoonguss accomplishes via spore, coverage moves, and its ability to use rocky helmet. As a result, it's one of the only mons to actively punish uturn from scizor. It's definitely in the same tier as many of the other A- rank mons, and it's fully deserving of a rise. Few other mons in the tier have the versatility that amoonguss does, and its ability to check such a vast amount of high-ranked threats should go in accordance with a rise itself.
So I just wanted to discuss about Mega Pidgeot as I think it should drop to C+. I just don't think Pidgeot is all that good right now however I do acknowledge it has its niches. As already pointed out it really struggles to do much in the meta especially with competing against Moltres and Togekiss which do a better job of breaking through steel types + they bring much more utility such as a scizor check/lure and wallbreaker etc. It also dislikes Rotom-H thanks to its depressing movepool and inability to take advantage of its normal typing unless running Hyper Beam which has way too many drawbacks. It is also pretty susceptible to being revenge killed by common scarfers and priority like CB Scizor BP.
The merits of using M-Pidgeot are simply as a fast pivot + the ability to chip away at steel, electric and rock types throughout the course of the game. Thanks to its speed tier and more than decent SpA it can fulfill this role well compared to the other flying types in the tier. Moltres is easily threatened by SR thanks to its typing and is fairly slow. It doesn't have a completely useless ability either as not missing Hurricane + Heat wave is really nice. The only other coverage that could be run is maybe HP Ground which could be decent for Nihi etc.
By no means do these reasons make it all that optimal but I think it fulfills its role as a fastish pivot on the few teams it is used on. But imo it is still simply a much worse and slower pivot compared to Manectric and Beedrill and the only upside of using Pidgeot over them is for a ground immunity. Manectric provides more utility as a scizor check etc. and Bee lures in steel and rock types too to chip away at, making them less of a mega slot waste. Unless this boi gets a buff to its movepool like 100% accurate Focus Blasts it should drop. As usual curious what you guys think ^_^
Well damn I actually agree with every discussion point being presented. Now the B+ rank looks nice and cleaned up too. I now have a point I’d like to make across that mentions Terrakion:
We should add an S- rank
When you view the A+ rankings you can clearly tell that Terrakion is a cut above the rest. Between mons like Scarfed Krookodile, Empoleon, and Togekiss, none of them are as consistent of a threat than Terrakion is. Terrakion has been able to warp the metagame and influenced multiple metagame trends with Gligar, the Bros, and Palossand all becoming far more prominent. Even with this sort of influence Terrakion can still break through these checks with a little bit of effort but it’s still doable. Yet it just misses the cutoff of S rank due to its serious lack of defensive utility and being revenge killed by the top mons in the tier. I think by adding an S- rank and placing Terrakion in it for the time being, we create a compromise between both sides of the Terrakion to S argument. If anything else becomes just as centralizing as Terrakion in this S- ranking then it can go there too. For now, I think this could be the best course of action.
Now that I’m done with that, I’m surprised to see that Mega Steelix is still sitting in B. I’ve found this Pokémon to still be extremely potent and when we’re talking about its defensive capabilities, it’s just on par with Mega Aggron. The rise of Specs Surf Latias just shows that people are becoming aware that Mega Steelix is actually a prevalent mon and should be taken account for. I’m not going to say much since it’ll just be me reiterating my previous points again but this Pokémon definitely isn’t B.
Mamoswine used to essentially be a staple on Hyper Offense teams for setting rocks. However, Rotom Heat kinda just walls it outright, therefore people have opted to run *clanger* because of its better matchup from what I understand.
Moving on to Infernape
Infernape's nasty plot is actually painful to switch into. +2 Fightium blows back alot and does a huge chunk to anything that isnt immune to it. Scarf isn't as common rn because NP Ape is better rn. Overall its a great breaker and deserving of a higher rank.
Swampert
RIP my favorite starter. This mon was a great rocker a while ago, but times have really caught up to it. Its just outclassed by Gligar, Hippo, etc. Overall, it's kinda just fallen from grace, which saddens me.
Well damn I actually agree with every discussion point being presented. Now the B+ rank looks nice and cleaned up too. I now have a point I’d like to make across that mentions Terrakion:
We should add an S- rank
When you view the A+ rankings you can clearly tell that Terrakion is a cut above the rest. Between mons like Scarfed Krookodile, Empoleon, and Togekiss, none of them are as consistent of a threat than Terrakion is. Terrakion has been able to warp the metagame and influenced multiple metagame trends with Gligar, the Bros, and Palossand all becoming far more prominent. Even with this sort of influence Terrakion can still break through these checks with a little bit of effort but it’s still doable. Yet it just misses the cutoff of S rank due to its serious lack of defensive utility and being revenge killed by the top mons in the tier. I think by adding an S- rank and placing Terrakion in it for the time being, we create a compromise between both sides of the Terrakion to S argument. If anything else becomes just as centralizing as Terrakion in this S- ranking then it can go there too. For now, I think this could be the best course of action.
Now that I’m done with that, I’m surprised to see that Mega Steelix is still sitting in B. I’ve found this Pokémon to still be extremely potent and when we’re talking about its defensive capabilities, it’s just on par with Mega Aggron. The rise of Specs Surf Latias just shows that people are becoming aware that Mega Steelix is actually a prevalent mon and should be taken account for. I’m not going to say much since it’ll just be me reiterating my previous points again but this Pokémon definitely isn’t B.
Agree with adding an S- rank. It would be the only proper rank to put Terrakion in and possibly latias if the meta continues trending against it. Definitely agree with Mega Steelix to B+ as well. A very consistent rocker and it’s previous awkward typing is really starting to pay off lately, and having stab Earthquake is nice too, with new sets appearing, like curse gyro ball. It is on par, if not a little better, than Mega Aggron, for the reason above, along with great power when Hippo starts a sandstorm, and being able to check some serious threate better, like Latias, Mega Manetric, Empoleon, etc.
Compared to our other Electrics, Zeraora has drastically worse staying power due to its reliance on Life Orb to actually kill things + its vulnerability to entry hazards + how frequently it's forced out. It's not uncommon for Togekiss to last all game because of how self-sufficient it is, so Zeraora struggles to find the time to do its job killing + offensively checking things while also coming in on Air Slash if it needs to.
I agree with all the discussion points bar this one. CB Pert certainly isn't on an uprising like AV Shao had, but I think the set is enough to keep pert in B-. Swampert is typically seen as a defensive threat, but CB makes use of its 110 base attack stat. The set can take advantage of greedy latias switching in to set up, surprise Rotom-H with an OHKO, and hit Celebi real fucking hard with Ice Punch when it thinks it's safe to set up. The rocks set isn't too bad either considering the drop of Zeraora and Mane running HP Grass less and the rise of rotom-h.
252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 194-230 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 262-310 (86.7 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 262-310 (80.6 - 95.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 254-300 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Terrakion A+--->S-
I agree that we need a s- tier. Terrakion is so incredibly threatening, because of it's flexibility and sheer power, especially with the edition of z-moves. Most checks that beat one set are completely demolished by the other, as proven with Slowbro. Slowbro checks the Choice Band set but Terrakion can land an easy OHKO with a +2 z-stone edge. Scizor doesnt want to switch in if Terrakion has a sub up, and the raw power of choice band prevents most pokemon from switching in, as most mons fast enough to outpace it dont want to take a choice banded close combat or stone edge. This forces you to get a hard counter such as Pallosand so you can handle Terrakions pure power. But it is not as splashable or consistently viable, as is why I dont believe putting into S tier is neccesary.
Terrakion is UU's golden arrow, better at breaking teams than any other Pokemon in the metagame and the last few weeks have been a discussion in what can switch in on Terrakion. It goes on basically every build except full stall (same as the other S mons) given that it generally breaks as well as any other two or even three Pokemon. The other three S Pokemon need multiple sets to effectively cover large portions of the metagame (Hydreigon for example just about neuters its coverage if it wants to break any Fairy), wheras Terrakion covers the entire metagame between CB and STAB Z-moves, effectively two sets. In what world is that not supremely splashable or consistent?
Let's please move on from discussion on Terrakion for now. It's going to stay A+ and the ranking council isn't currently considering implementing an S- rank. Terrakion is a defining and prominent force in the metagame, yes, but the reasons that it is staying A+ have already been illustrated and unless its shortcomings keeping it from reaching S are compensated for with significant changes in metagame trends, it's going to stay where it's at. We have a lot of other discussion points worth talking about right now, so let's please focus on those for the time being. Happy posting, friends.
Venomoth: C- ~> C
We’ve all been sleeping on this boi. There are very few good late-game sweeper options that can hit hard without boosts if necessary. If bliss and quag are weakened, Venomoth rips through stall teams like butter. One of its best answers, Hippowdon, gets ripped by +2 tinted lens lo bug buzz (81-96%) and easily outspends most threats with a boost, even modest. We don’t need to talk about sleep powder+quiver, and Venomoth being the best in the tier (do you want to risk Vivillon’s 60% accurate hurricanes?) should get moved up.
Venomoth: C- ~> C
We’ve all been sleeping on this boi. There are very few good late-game sweeper options that can hit hard without boosts if necessary. If bliss and quag are weakened, Venomoth rips through stall teams like butter. One of its best answers, Hippowdon, gets ripped by +2 tinted lens lo bug buzz (81-96%) and easily outspends most threats with a boost, even modest. We don’t need to talk about sleep powder+quiver, and Venomoth being the best in the tier (do you want to risk Vivillon’s 60% accurate hurricanes?) should get moved up.
There’s already been discussion on this mon and it was agreed that there are plenty of things that outspeed it at +1, including the most common scarfers in Krook, Hydreigon, and latias. It’s both frail and weak to rocks, which makes it hard to set up more than one boost. It can still rip stuff in the right circumstances, but it’s honestly good where it is. There are just usually better set up sweepers.
Also, Vivillon’s hurricanes are around 90% accurate. They are 70% normally, and compoundeyes increases that.
While I agree that the surge of Rotom-Heat does hurt Mamoswine's viability, I trully think that it shouldn't drop. Mamoswine is still one of the scariest Pokemon to face for Balanced because of its sheer force and amazing STABs which allow it to pressure a plethora of defensives Pokemon in Underused like Amoonguss, Altaria-Mega, Empoleon, Hippowdon, Tentacruel, Gligar, Steelix-Mega and Aggron-Mega. It can also act as a nice Revenge Killer thanks to Ice Shard with allows it to RK weakened Pokemon like Latias, Hydreigon, Aerodactyl-Mega etc.. Also, even if Rotom-Heat can takes some hits from Mamoswine, it kinda struggles to be really good in the long run because of chips induce by U-Turn / Stealth Rocks / Volt-Switch etc.. Also, Rotom-Heat need to scout Mamoswine's moveset because Knock Off or Stone Edge can punish Rotom-Heat pretty hard. Since Mamoswine is one of the best breaker in the tier (with Nidoking), I think it should stay A.
From A- to A : Disagree
As I said before, Rotom-Heat kinda struggles to be effective during the long run because it doesn't have a real way to heal itself. Leftovers and Iapapa Berry can be Knock Off. In the other hand, Rotom-Heat has a 4MSS which is kinda annoying. Overheat and Volt-Switch are essential which means Rotom-Heat has to choose between Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Pain Split and Defog. Without Will-O-Wisp, Rotom-Heat is a shaky check to Bisharp after a Swords Dance while without Toxik, it struggles vs Hippowdon, Hydreigon, Latias etc.. Without Pain Split, it struggles to be effective in the long run and if you don't play it with Defog you need another Pokemon which can deal with Entry Hazards. I think A- is enough for Rotom-Heat and it shouldn't rise.
From B+ to A- : Agree
Amoonguss is an amazing splashable Pokemon in the current tier and an an increible Pivot thanks to its typing and Regenerator which allow it to check with ease a ton of threats. While Black Sludge is still an amazing item, variants with Rocky Helmet helps Amoonguss to deal with Choice Band Scizor while also being able to punish U-Turn's users and Zeraora. Amoonguss is definitively a staple in a lot of builds and I think it should rise.
