USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V3

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
#1

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Welcome to the SM UU Viability Ranking Thread!

Here, our goal is to sort every Pokemon with viability in UU into rankings that can distinguish them all based upon their specific value in the tier. The community and the Viability Ranking's council will work together to refine the rankings from time to time to make sure they are as accurate as possible, though unlike the last thread, updates will not occur on a scheduled basis and will instead happen when the metagame has significantly changed enough for plentiful accurate changes to be made. Here are the members of the ranking council that will assist us in managing the thread:

The ranks themselves have had their meaning readjusted to more accurately allow us to rank Pokemon. Below you will find an explanation for what we are generally looking for when discussing the merits of rising and dropping specific Pokemon.

S Rank will be the top of the top, incredibly dominant Pokemon who don’t really have any equal. A+ and A have room for other meta defining threats that may not either: affect the meta, be easy to fit on teams, have room for breaking through checks, or have versatility that the S ranks do. A- and B+ are a catch-all collection of a variety of Pokemon who aren’t quite meta defining, but still make their presence known in the tier. B Rank is generally the lowest you will be with a solidified niche in the tier. B- and C+ have room for Pokemon with either unexplored but scary potential, or Pokemon with a solid niche but more defined weaknesses that prevent them from being used. C and C- will be for Pokemon that are either technically usable but outclassed, or as a testing ground for rising Pokemon being used to check certain meta trends. You may also find things with very specific niches that don’t warrant being placed in a higher rank. D rank is once again for unviable Pokemon that are UU by usage, do not discuss them.

When contributing to the thread, be sure to try supporting your proposals regarding ranking changes without personal bias. Using a Pokemon on ladder and doing well with it also doesn't automatically suggest the Pokemon in question is worth a ranking, as while success in high ladder play can be suggestive of a deserved rank, there's more to a Pokemon's viability than one instance in which a player used it to some degree of success. It's never a bad idea bringing attention to a Pokemon you believe is underrated, though just make sure in doing so that your argument has more basis than some proven use on ladder. Now, without further ado, it's time to get to our rankings. Enjoy!

S Rank
Latias
Scizor

A+ Rank
Aerodactyl-Mega
Empoleon
Hydreigon
Krookodile
Manectric-Mega
Togekiss

A Rank
Cobalion
Hippowdon
Mamoswine
Sharpedo-Mega
Terrakion

A- Rank
Aggron-Mega
Alomomola
Altaria-Mega
Blissey
Kommo-o
Kyurem
Moltres
Nihilego
Primarina
Slowbro
Slowbro-Mega
Suicune
Tentacruel

B+ Rank
Amoonguss
Celebi
Chandelure
Gengar
Heracross
Infernape
Klefki
Muk-Alola
Nidoking
Rotom-C
Rotom-H
Stakataka
Starmie
Swampert
Volcanion

B Rank
Beedrill-Mega
Bronzong
Crobat
Doublade
Florges
Houndoom-Mega
Jellicent
Lucario
Pidgeot-Mega
Raikou
Rhyperior
Sylveon

B- Rank
Azelf
Bewear
Blastoise-Mega
Chesnaught
Crawdaunt
Haxorus
Mantine
Necrozma
Quagsire
Reuniclus
Salazzle
Sceptile-Mega
Snorlax
Steelix-Mega
Talonflame
Tornadus
Toxicroak
Tsareena

C+ Rank
Araquanid
Cofagrigus
Darmanitan
Decidueye
Diancie
Feraligatr
Gligar
Magneton
Metagross
Nidoqueen

C Rank
Absol-Mega
Aurorus
Barbaracle
Mandibuzz
Mienshao
Palossand
Pyukumuku
Roserade
Sandslash-Alola
Silvally-Steel
Umbreon
Zygarde-10%

C- Rank
Abomasnow-Mega
Cresselia
Entei
Glalie-Mega
Linoone
Marowak-Alola
Porygon2
Registeel
Seismitoad
Uxie
Venomoth

D Rank - Do not discuss Pokemon in this rank
Arcanine

Current Discussion Slate
Cobalion A -> A+
Terrakion A -> A+
Infernape B+ -> A-
Stakataka B+ -> A-
Doublade B -> B-
Mega Pidgeot B -> B-
Sylveon B -> B-
Chesnaught B- -> B
Zygarde-10% C -> C+
 
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Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
#3
Here's everything that changed from the last thread:
Rises
A -> A+
A- -> A+
A- -> A
B+ -> A-
B -> A-
B -> B+
B- -> B
B- -> B
B- -> B
B- -> B
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C -> C+
C- -> C+
UR -> C+
C- -> C
Drops
A+ -> A
A -> A-
A -> A-
A -> A-
A -> A-
A -> B+
A- -> B+
A- -> B+
A- -> B+
A- -> B+
A- -> B
B+ -> B
B+ -> B
B+ -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
C+ -> C
C+ -> UR
C -> C-
C -> C-
C- -> UR
Obviously there's a lot here, so Sage and I tried covering what we thought the most notable and important changes were below. If there's something we didn't cover that you're still curious about, feel free to let me know on my wall.

Rises
  • Empoleon is the best it’s ever been, having quickly risen to stardom as an amazing pick for a defensive pivot and entry hazard remover. Its typing is incredibly applicable in the metagame, it isn’t nearly as passive as a lot of its competition, and it has multiple fantastic utility options it can support its team with in addition to defogging or setting entry hazards, increasing its overall splashability. Its recent tournament showings have proven its current prowess and worth and fully justify placement in A+ and status as a top-tier Pokemon.
  • Krookodile’s Choice Scarf set has continued increasing its dominance over the metagame enough to justify rising to A+. It’s the tier’s most reliable Pursuit trapper thanks to its typing and Intimidate giving it plentiful switch-in opportunities, while its leading usage and solid win rate in this year’s Snake Draft tournament is testament to its splashability and consistency. It can even scare several of the tier’s popular bulky Pokemon, like Alomomola and Hippowdon, due to the threat of Knock Off’s inconvenience.
  • Hippowdon rose because it has become a significantly stronger defensive pick than in metagames past. Alongside Empoleon, it forms one of the tier’s most potent and successful cores on balanced and bulky offensive builds. The use of its typing and mixed bulk in comparison to its competition are at an all-time high, while its usage and influence over the meta is continuing to steadily increase, which is grounds (heh) for a rise.
  • Mega Slowbro and Slowbro have both picked up a lot of traction in high level ladder play and in tournaments as fantastic defensive forces capable of taking on large amounts of the metagame. Mega Slowbro stands as one of the few reliable hard checks to Terrakion and has showcased more consistency than ever in both Snake Draft and UU Open. Slowbro has seen a large increase in usage as one of the tier’s best defensive pivots available, combating presences like Terrakion and Cobalion very reliably, in addition to increasing its versatility thanks to the recent innovation and proven success of its Block set.
  • Jellicent has seen a significant uptick in usage on ladder and has proven to be pivotal in some Snake Draft and Open matches. Its typing, utility with options like Taunt and Hex, and fantastic Speed tier for a defensive Pokemon have all been key in allowing it to combat several metagame trends, such as the strength of Empoleon/Hippowdon cores, Slowbros gaining traction, and the viability of several Fighting-types, which is overall enough for rising from B- to be reasonable.
  • Florges rose to B and Sylveon dropped from B+ to reflect that at this stage, the two are on fairly even ground as defensive Fairy-types. Florges has seen significant usage in tournament play that has adequately illustrated its worth, which is largely in the form of having a little more special durability, and most importantly, being able to recover in one turn and find room for potentially pivotal options, like Hidden Power Fire or Defog. Sylveon’s better physical bulk and ability to more easily pass Wishes allows it to distinguish itself still, though not enough for the two to be a rank apart when their specific uses from each other are becoming more defined than ever before.
  • Lucario, Salazzle, Diancie, Gligar, and Araquanid are all a few Pokemon that’s niches have become more pronounced and relevant in the current metagame, justifying rises. Lucario has been making waves with both Nasty Plot and Swords Dance sets due to its unique typing over Infernape and better power and versatility over Cobalion, Salazzle has seen an increase in versatility with Toxic sets making a splash with Gliscor gone alongside its setup options, Araquanid has played a part in the slight rise of webs offense, and Gligar and Diancie are both fine defensive options in the metagame with niches that have been capitalized on in recent high ladder and tournament play.
Drops
  • Cobalion is still among the tier’s more centralizing offensive forces, though the slight redefinitions of the rankings have made A a more comfortable home for it for the time being. It runs into a few problems that as a Steel-type can be fairly burdensome, like failing to come in on Psychic-type attacks well and having poor Special Defense. It can also be relatively easy to prepare for given that a lot of Scizor’s best checks also stand up to Cobalion very adequately and rising options in Jellicent and the Slowbros very successfully take it on.
  • Mega Aggron, Mega Altaria, Primarina, and Suicune are less centralizing and defining than the rest of A at this stage in the metagame, justifying drops. The metagame has made some unintentional adaptations to Mega Aggron, largely in the form of several rising threats, like Moltres and Terrakion, being able to easily power through it. Mega Altaria has failed to make a splash since the Mega Venusaur metagame, with relatively low usage and increased opportunity cost due to the current strength of several other Mega Evolutions. Primarina is struggling to work around Empoleon’s current presence and is more easily powered through by the offensive metagame than ever before. Lastly, Suicune is still a centralizing and annoying force, but is struggling more for a spot on teams than before due to the prowess of a few other Water-types, like Empoleon, Slowbro, and most notably, Mega Slowbro, which directly competes with it in some cases.
  • Infernape dropped two subranks due to struggling to fit into the metagame nearly as well as a few weeks ago and probably being too high to begin with. Its Choice Scarf set has fallen off dramatically, while Nasty Plot has increased competition from Lucario as a stallbreaker. While still good and still versatile, it just isn’t as defining as its former A ranking would suggest, and also struggles to circumvent its weakness to a few rising Pokemon, like the Slowbros, Jellicent, and Moltres.
  • Starmie and Swampert both dropped from A- due to being in odd places in the metagame. Starmie’s lacking defensive utility and more pronounced four-moveslot syndrome have been hurting it more than ever in recent weeks, while Swampert significantly struggles to do what it does nearly as reliably. The strength of Empoleon/Hippowdon cores can leave builders with less of a need to fit Swampert unless they’re strapped for team slots, while it can be punished by really every relevant Electric-type due to Manectric, Raikou, and Rotom-H’s increased opportunities to run coverage to hit it hard with.
  • Crobat’s utility just isn’t as applicable as it used to be. It doesn’t check nearly as large a variety of threats as before, can’t comfortably come in on or muscle past several popular Fairy- and Fighting-types as a Poison-type, and lacks appreciation for the popularity of several defensive threats, like Empoleon, Slowbro, and its Mega forme. Its relevance in the meta has significantly decreased, which a drop reflects well right now.
  • Pidgeot-Mega has taken something of a nosedive recently, with the “stallbreaker” set notably failing to break any common stall as new adaptations such as Wish Blissey, Stakataka and the increased prominence of Mega Aerodactyl in the Mega Slot. U-turn sets are still decent at having relatively strong Hurricanes to throw out, and using this to get in Pokemon like Terrakion in safely, but that niche is definitely not worthy of an A- rank placing, B much more adequately portrays the strengths Pidgeot brings.
  • Azelf has not been explored as much as its movepool suggests it could be, and while that potential is certainly scary, the amount of times we have actually seen Azelf capitalize on its potent mixed offensive stats and coverage is limited. With more experimentation and a little more usage Azelf could reclaim its old spot, in B or B+, but for now it is better represented lower.
  • Haxorus can still get the job done well as a stallbreaker, though Kommo-o’s rise has hurt it significantly in that it’s faced with heavy competition that has several relevant benefits over it, such as better typing, defensive utility, and overall versatility. It just isn’t as relevant in the metagame as the rest of B for its current placement to be justified, which is why dropping down to B- is fair.
  • Hoopa and Yanmega are both the victims of unranking in this update. Hoopa, while a passable stallbreaker is almost entirely outclassed by the already relatively niche Decidueye, who has a much more useful Grass-typing, Hoopa has seen nearly zero usage for good reason, it has no place in this meta. Yanmega is another mon that was ranked mostly due to personal biases and experiences, and doesn’t really have a place in the meta. Choice Specs doesn’t do anything Moltres can’t accomplish, and the Reversal WP set, while unorthodox, is gimmicky and shut down by a number of common priority moves and any sort of chip damage from Sand, as well as relying on being hit by an SE move in the first place. It’s another mon that doesn’t deserve to be listed.
Hope you guys enjoyed! Thanks to Sage, Kink, and Hogg for helping me put this all together, and let's hope for a great thread moving forward! To close out this post, I'll leave you guys with our discussion points, though since there's already a lot of content, I won't quite write out everything as much as I'll leave small explanations for some of these. Enjoy!

Discussion Points
Cobalion A -> A+
Terrakion A -> A+
Infernape B+ -> A-
Stakataka B+ -> A- (this one's mostly on the basis of its defensive set, which has been making huge waves in higher level play on stall and has more or less overtaken OTR as Staka's best option. Whether or not it's consistent enough for A- is worth talking about in depth)
Doublade B -> B-
Mega Pidgeot B -> B-
Sylveon B -> B- (consensus here is that it's probably not as good as Florges right now due to how invaluable room for a fourth slot is, but passing wishes and better physical bulk could be valuable enough to keep it at B)
Chesnaught B- -> B (Chesnaught spikes are on the rise and we thought Chesnaught's place in the meta could use some more discussion even after rising it to B-, so please weigh in on this one!)
Zygarde-10% C -> C+

Again, I hope you guys enjoyed! Make sure that you're kind in engaging in discussion in this new thread, and happy posting! :)
 
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#4
Great job with the new vr HiloMilo and Sage! I think that this is an almost accurate representation of the current status of UU. However something has already bugged me and other users.

Infernape should be A-
This drop all the way down two subranks was a bit too harsh. Nape just sharing the same rank with Heracross and Gengar feels like a crime. Infernape has always been a very flexible mon that seems to adapt depending on metagame trends. Infernape has definitely taken a hit in viability but it still does its job of revenge killing and threatening switches. Infernape’s gigantic movepool shows that it has tons of options like Stone Edge to beat Moltres as an example. Infernape just always seems to have the right coverage for the right meta.

Also we should continue with the riot of freeing Mega Doom. A Fire type that breaks through the popular Empo+Hippo core while scaring the Bros and Jellicent from switching in is a niche that’s really under appreciated. Sludge Bomb is also amazing coverage letting it take on Primarina who would otherwise wall Doom. Put it in B+.

One last nom, I think that Mantine should drop to C+. Mantine is pretty much outclassed by Empoleon at this point of the meta. It’s overall passiveness, weakness to rocks, and getting easily taken advantage of by Mega Bro is an issue. Empoleon is just a far stronger and superior pick.

Well glad that this is finally up! Let’s have some fun with this.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#5
Hard disagree with Infernape dropping into B+. The reasoning used isn’t terrible but seriously look at it alongside Heracross and Chandelure and try to tell me this is genuinely where it fits. Choice Scarf shouldn’t be a discussion point this set hasn’t been used in a million years but instead should focus more on the Nasty Plot and Choice Band sets, with the rise of new sets featured in snake also added to consideration, namely non choiced U-Turn and and Life Orb Slack Off. It’s true that Nasty Plot Lucario is probably a better stallbreaker thanks to it’s extra power but the extra speed and better offensive typing of Infernape (being able to check Scizor more reliably without Z move is particularly important) has its own redeeming factors. Choice Band is super rough on a lot of current team archetypes, and holds a pretty respectable niche as being the only viable priority user in the tier capable of OHKOing Sharpedo, a god send for the kind of bulky offenses it’s seen on. Finally as alluded to earlier, we’ve seen some more exploration of Infernape in snake, with Pak’s U-Turn non choiced ape doing enormous work in his game against Rob, while the LO Slack Off set has seen use in both Snake and later stages of open, just showing that ape still has untapped potential in this metagame. Definitely worthy of being A-.
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
#7
  • Hoopa and Yanmega are both the victims of unranking in this update. Hoopa, while a passable stallbreaker is almost entirely outclassed by the already relatively niche Decidueye, who has a much more useful Grass-typing, Hoopa has seen nearly zero usage for good reason, it has no place in this meta. Yanmega is another mon that was ranked mostly due to personal biases and experiences, and doesn’t really have a place in the meta. Choice Specs doesn’t do anything Moltres can’t accomplish, and the Reversal WP set, while unorthodox, is gimmicky and shut down by a number of common priority moves and any sort of chip damage from Sand, as well as relying on being hit by an SE move in the first place. It’s another mon that doesn’t deserve to be listed.
\
It's frustrating for me to see this as the tier's number one proponent (and creator) of Reversal WP yanmega, as I find that most of the claims being made in this paragraph are either meaningless or off base, and overall seem not backed up by actual experience playing with the set.

The reversal weakness policy set ONLY relies on actually pressing endure and getting down to 1HP under the conditions that it's beneficial (e.g. it forces a kill midgame that will open the team up) or if it can sweep the rest of the team (no prior / hippo on opponent's team, no full health fairies that can take a +2 hit). In this way, it functions in much the same way as sharpedo -- it only [clicks endure / mega evolve] when it needs to, and has significant utility outside of that.

At the end of the day, a mon 4x resistant to fighting with 116 SpA and speed boost has immense utility OUTSIDE of its role as a late-game sweeper, and the notion that it "needs to be hit by an SE move" fundamentally reveals y'alls lack of experience actually using it. In the same way that Chople Berry Empoleon INTENDS to be hit be a fighting move and nab a surprise kill, weakness policy yanmega INTENDS to be hit by a rock / flying / fire / electric / ice move and nab 1+ surprise kills. No one in their right mind would say that Empoleon "relies" on being hit by a close combat in the first place, so I don't see why it's a valid argument for yanmega.

Additionally, I'd like to address the comment that it's "shut down" by common priority moves and any sort of chip damage from sand. First of all, both of these cases are only true if Yanmega is actually endured down to 1 HP, which, again, is relatively rare. Moreover, Endure allows you to scout once at 1HP when the banded scizor comes in to revenge kill you with bullet punch [or simply predict it] and manipulate the momentum in your favor WHILE keeping your yanmega alive at 1HP and ready to come back in later in the game. If Yanmega isn't at 1HP, priority moves / sand absolutely don't cripple it any more than any other mon, and probably even less -- it 4x resists vacuum wave, takes only 60% from banded bullet punch and does over half with air slash in return, and does not die to [and activates WP] ice shard.

Ultimately, my main concern is with the comment that "Yanmega is another mon that was ranked mostly due to personal biases and experiences", because I think it gives me pause with regards to this iteration of the viability thread and will determine my own involvement in it. If we are to believe the stated goal of "The community and the Viability Ranking's council will work together to refine the rankings from time to time to make sure they are as accurate as possible", someone discovering a viable set, play testing it over hundreds of games [ladder, tour, test], and putting the time into making posts on several different channels on its viability, its role in the meta game, and the niche it fulfills, that is something that should be valued -- not decried. Personal experience is the most relevant -- and only metric we have to determine viability, brokenness, health, and place within a tier, and the notion that a mon being "ranked due to personal experience" is a bad thing seems like a warning sign that arbitrary determinations of "gimmickyness" or "innovation" will be determined by people in positions of power and not by the actual collective efforts of the tier and contributors to this thread.



[by eagle hawk's request, here's the set]

S (Yanmega) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Reversal
- Endure
 
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#8
Vr in general looks great. Think ape should be a- as well but that's not what I'm going to focus on. I honestly think krook isn't worthy of a+ and should fall to a. Yes its one of the most splashable pursuit trappers rn and is a fairly reliable sr setter as well. Its a very good check to common electrics as well. However krook is just too easy to stop and simply too one dimensional to be a+ imo. It essentially has 2 sets, and its counterplay doesn't really change on either of them. Krook also isn't centralizing enough. It's not really hard to have an answer or even 2 for it on your team. While other a+ threats such as maero, hydrei, toge and mmane require you in the builder to think of your counterplay for them, krook does not. Krook is also the slowest of the viable scarfers atm and it struggles to revenge the premier ddance user in kommo-o, as well as being easily taken advantage of by mons such as hydrei, heracross and togekiss. Yes none of these can reliably come in fearing either coverage or getting worn down, but the fact that krook is usually choiced makes this a mindgame while rocks sets usually just can't hit them at all. Krook is very good at what it does and is a very solid mon, but imo it's just not imposing enough on the meta to warrant it being ranked with mons such as hydrei and maero.
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#9
It's frustrating for me to see this as the tier's number one proponent (and creator) of Reversal WP yanmega, as I find that most of the claims being made in this paragraph are either meaningless or off base, and overall seem not backed up by actual experience playing with the set.

The reversal weakness policy set ONLY relies on actually pressing endure and getting down to 1HP under the conditions that it's beneficial (e.g. it forces a kill midgame that will open the team up) or if it can sweep the rest of the team (no prior / hippo on opponent's team, no full health fairies that can take a +2 hit). In this way, it functions in much the same way as sharpedo -- it only [clicks endure / mega evolve] when it needs to, and has significant utility outside of that.

At the end of the day, a mon 4x resistant to fighting with 116 SpA and speed boost has immense utility OUTSIDE of its role as a late-game sweeper, and the notion that it "needs to be hit by an SE move" fundamentally reveals y'alls lack of experience actually using it. In the same way that Chople Berry Empoleon INTENDS to be hit be a fighting move and nab a surprise kill, weakness policy yanmega INTENDS to be hit by a rock / flying / fire / electric / ice move and nab 1+ surprise kills. No one in their right mind would say that Empoleon "relies" on being hit by a close combat in the first place, so I don't see why it's a valid argument for yanmega.

Additionally, I'd like to address the comment that it's "shut down" by common priority moves and any sort of chip damage from sand. First of all, both of these cases are only true if Yanmega is actually endured down to 1 HP, which, again, is relatively rare. Moreover, Endure allows you to scout once at 1HP when the banded scizor comes in to revenge kill you with bullet punch [or simply predict it] and manipulate the momentum in your favor WHILE keeping your yanmega alive at 1HP and ready to come back in later in the game. If Yanmega isn't at 1HP, priority moves / sand absolutely don't cripple it any more than any other mon, and probably even less -- it 4x resists vacuum wave, takes only 60% from banded bullet punch and does over half with air slash in return, and does not die to [and activates WP] ice shard.

Ultimately, my main concern is with the comment that "Yanmega is another mon that was ranked mostly due to personal biases and experiences", because I think it gives me pause with regards to this iteration of the viability thread and will determine my own involvement in it. If we are to believe the stated goal of "The community and the Viability Ranking's council will work together to refine the rankings from time to time to make sure they are as accurate as possible", someone discovering a viable set, play testing it over hundreds of games [ladder, tour, test], and putting the time into making posts on several different channels on its viability, its role in the meta game, and the niche it fulfills, that is something that should be valued -- not decried. Personal experience is the most relevant -- and only metric we have to determine viability, brokenness, health, and place within a tier, and the notion that a mon being "ranked due to personal experience" is a bad thing seems like a warning sign that arbitrary determinations of "gimmickyness" or "innovation" will be determined by people in positions of power and not by the actual collective efforts of the tier and contributors to this thread.
First off, before I go any further, I would like to know what is this set in question? I haven't seen the set posted anywhere, so if you could copy-paste it in your response post, it'd be greatly appreciated.
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#11
It's frustrating for me to see this as the tier's number one proponent (and creator) of Reversal WP yanmega, as I find that most of the claims being made in this paragraph are either meaningless or off base, and overall seem not backed up by actual experience playing with the set.

The reversal weakness policy set ONLY relies on actually pressing endure and getting down to 1HP under the conditions that it's beneficial (e.g. it forces a kill midgame that will open the team up) or if it can sweep the rest of the team (no prior / hippo on opponent's team, no full health fairies that can take a +2 hit). In this way, it functions in much the same way as sharpedo -- it only [clicks endure / mega evolve] when it needs to, and has significant utility outside of that.

At the end of the day, a mon 4x resistant to fighting with 116 SpA and speed boost has immense utility OUTSIDE of its role as a late-game sweeper, and the notion that it "needs to be hit by an SE move" fundamentally reveals y'alls lack of experience actually using it. In the same way that Chople Berry Empoleon INTENDS to be hit be a fighting move and nab a surprise kill, weakness policy yanmega INTENDS to be hit by a rock / flying / fire / electric / ice move and nab 1+ surprise kills. No one in their right mind would say that Empoleon "relies" on being hit by a close combat in the first place, so I don't see why it's a valid argument for yanmega.

Additionally, I'd like to address the comment that it's "shut down" by common priority moves and any sort of chip damage from sand. First of all, both of these cases are only true if Yanmega is actually endured down to 1 HP, which, again, is relatively rare. Moreover, Endure allows you to scout once at 1HP when the banded scizor comes in to revenge kill you with bullet punch [or simply predict it] and manipulate the momentum in your favor WHILE keeping your yanmega alive at 1HP and ready to come back in later in the game. If Yanmega isn't at 1HP, priority moves / sand absolutely don't cripple it any more than any other mon, and probably even less -- it 4x resists vacuum wave, takes only 60% from banded bullet punch and does over half with air slash in return, and does not die to [and activates WP] ice shard.

Ultimately, my main concern is with the comment that "Yanmega is another mon that was ranked mostly due to personal biases and experiences", because I think it gives me pause with regards to this iteration of the viability thread and will determine my own involvement in it. If we are to believe the stated goal of "The community and the Viability Ranking's council will work together to refine the rankings from time to time to make sure they are as accurate as possible", someone discovering a viable set, play testing it over hundreds of games [ladder, tour, test], and putting the time into making posts on several different channels on its viability, its role in the meta game, and the niche it fulfills, that is something that should be valued -- not decried. Personal experience is the most relevant -- and only metric we have to determine viability, brokenness, health, and place within a tier, and the notion that a mon being "ranked due to personal experience" is a bad thing seems like a warning sign that arbitrary determinations of "gimmickyness" or "innovation" will be determined by people in positions of power and not by the actual collective efforts of the tier and contributors to this thread.
EDIT: THE PREVIOUS POST POSTED WITHOUT ME FINISHING THE ACTUAL POST. HERE'S WHAT THE ENTIRE POST WAS SUPPOSED TO BE. SORRY IN ADVANCE, KITTEN MILK.
Could you post a copy-paste of your set in your response? It's hard to actually know what this set is without seeing it. Most of the points I will address will not heavily depend on the specifics of the set.

Arguably, your assumption of no priority, no Hippo, and a bunch of other things not existing isn't really a valid defense of WP Reversal's viability. Even if it is considered to be the most "effective" of Yanmega's options, it's performance is inconsistent in the sense that very few people were able to reproduce this set's effectiveness under different team build conditions (a.k.a. using different team members with the same Yanmega set to help it perform a sweep).

I am also curious as to the immense utility Yanmega brings to the table. You bring it up, but provide no justification for this claim. It's really hard to see your point if you choose to make nebulous claims. You also mention that it would be incredibly rare for Yanmega to be Endured down to 1 HP. If the Endure, and by extension, the Weakness Policy, rarely kicks in, wouldn't it defeat the purpose of the set? Again, I am asking for clarification, not as some snarky rhetorical question.

Finally, I would like to address the point you brought up, "The community and the Viability Ranking's council will work together to refine the rankings from time to time to make sure they are as accurate as possible". The community aspect is very important when it comes to refining the rankings, but you also should recognize that "personal experience" is not the only most relevant and only metric to define viability. You may have innovated the set, but there are some questions that must be answered first when considering a set's true viability:
  1. Is the set or Pokemon intuitive to the average UU player?
  2. Can your success with the Pokemon be reproduced by other players, especially the average UU community member?
  3. Is your set or Pokemon flexible to multiple team members, or does the Pokemon overly rely on certain Pokemon to guarantee its effectiveness?
The governing question over all of these would other players only find success with this Pokemon if they copy-pasted your team, or would a player's unique build around Yanmega that is distinct from yours also be equally successful. A lot of scientific experiments predicate on not just the discovery, but also the reproducibility of the results by others to guarantee validity. Pokemon such as Slowbro start gaining traction because one person uses it, then another person tries it out and finds massive success with it.

In closing, consider Euphonos' BD Marill team. In Gen. 6, Euphonos used a BD Marill to climb very high up the ladder. Just because Euphonos saw success with it doesn't mean that it's a set or Pokemon any person can start building around. The Viability Rankings is certainly not an elitist notion of what is viable and what isn't.

Maybe you need to take a step back and see if you're even considering the community in your Yanmega rant.
 

Sage

I, TONYA
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
#12
It's frustrating for me to see this as the tier's number one proponent (and creator) of Reversal WP yanmega, as I find that most of the claims being made in this paragraph are either meaningless or off base, and overall seem not backed up by actual experience playing with the set.

The reversal weakness policy set ONLY relies on actually pressing endure and getting down to 1HP under the conditions that it's beneficial (e.g. it forces a kill midgame that will open the team up) or if it can sweep the rest of the team (no prior / hippo on opponent's team, no full health fairies that can take a +2 hit). In this way, it functions in much the same way as sharpedo -- it only [clicks endure / mega evolve] when it needs to, and has significant utility outside of that.

At the end of the day, a mon 4x resistant to fighting with 116 SpA and speed boost has immense utility OUTSIDE of its role as a late-game sweeper, and the notion that it "needs to be hit by an SE move" fundamentally reveals y'alls lack of experience actually using it. In the same way that Chople Berry Empoleon INTENDS to be hit be a fighting move and nab a surprise kill, weakness policy yanmega INTENDS to be hit by a rock / flying / fire / electric / ice move and nab 1+ surprise kills. No one in their right mind would say that Empoleon "relies" on being hit by a close combat in the first place, so I don't see why it's a valid argument for Yanmega.

Additionally, I'd like to address the comment that it's "shut down" by common priority moves and any sort of chip damage from sand. First of all, both of these cases are only true if Yanmega is actually endured down to 1 HP, which, again, is relatively rare. Moreover, Endure allows you to scout once at 1HP when the banded scizor comes in to revenge kill you with bullet punch [or simply predict it] and manipulate the momentum in your favor WHILE keeping your yanmega alive at 1HP and ready to come back in later in the game. If Yanmega isn't at 1HP, priority moves / sand absolutely don't cripple it any more than any other mon, and probably even less -- it 4x resists vacuum wave, takes only 60% from banded bullet punch and does over half with air slash in return, and does not die to [and activates WP] ice shard.

Ultimately, my main concern is with the comment that "Yanmega is another mon that was ranked mostly due to personal biases and experiences", because I think it gives me pause with regards to this iteration of the viability thread and will determine my own involvement in it. If we are to believe the stated goal of "The community and the Viability Ranking's council will work together to refine the rankings from time to time to make sure they are as accurate as possible", someone discovering a viable set, play testing it over hundreds of games [ladder, tour, test], and putting the time into making posts on several different channels on its viability, its role in the meta game, and the niche it fulfills, that is something that should be valued -- not decried. Personal experience is the most relevant -- and only metric we have to determine viability, brokenness, health, and place within a tier, and the notion that a mon being "ranked due to personal experience" is a bad thing seems like a warning sign that arbitrary determinations of "gimmickyness" or "innovation" will be determined by people in positions of power and not by the actual collective efforts of the tier and contributors to this thread.
I'm going to respond to this both about Yanmega and about your concerns with how the thread will be run.

Firstly, going to go over Yanmega itself (may talk about your points out of order Mobile is hard.) Yanmega is usable, I don't think being unranked takes away this fact. Usable doesn't equate a niche worthy of being ranked. Why are you using Yanmega in UU? Is it because of it's Choice Specs set that is 100% outclassed by Moltres? Or is it because of the cleaner set? For you it is the latter so let's talk about that. You claim it can continue to use its Speed Boost, going so far as to compare it to Sharpedo. Yanmega compared to Sharpedo has A: No Protect, which emans you can't immediately abuse Speed Boost which Sharpedo reliably can do multiple times a game. B: you potentially take 50% health in hazards damage, another factor limiting your switch in oopportunies have Bug Buzz and Air Slash as your coverage (ignoring Reversal here), leaving you walled by Steels and unable to revenge threats like Moltres or Nihilego. Sharpedo has much tighter coverage even its base form. Taking 60% from CB Scizor on a Mon that loses half its health to Stealth Rock is a death sentence. This should absolutely not be viewed as a good trait Yanmega has. Every Fighting-type in the tier bar Cobalion KOes Yanmega with a secondary STAB or a coverage and Rocks, while some like Terrakion and Infernape are OHKOing. Speed Boost not activating on switch in leaves you as a horrible check to these Pokemon, and Yanmega in general brings nearly nothing to a team defensively.

With regards to how this thread is run, what I mean by personal biases is due to how a lot of the old thread noms would be based around something like this: I used X mon up to 1600, it was passable, let's rank it / rise it / whatever. This is what u mean by personal biases, not any kind of attack on users of underexplored Pokemon. I myself have tried to have things that by no means are in the spotlight. I think my fondness for Klinklang is a good example of this, it's a fun Pokemon with an interesting setup option and strong Z move that I've made work up to 1700 (also with a Sneasel and Marill on the same team.) Is this usage grounds for it being ranked though? What about Sneasel and Marill, who were passable trappers? I personally don't think so and you can feel free to disagree with that, but while I'm running the thread I want things to have a defined niche if they are ranked. Yanmegas role of surprise speed boost cleaner to me is not worthy of that fact. I've been guilty of this in the past, such as in an old post where I nommed Necrozma up solely because I had used it to success and not because the meta really changed for it, or that it established a more solid niche. Changes like those we attempted to revert in this overhaul. I appreciate your enthusiasm and your willingness to take a bold stance and try to call elitism. I hope my transparency here explains the thought process behind why some mons such as Yanmega shifted and how it's not coming from an "I'm better than you" standpoint but a reevaluation of what being ranked should mean.

Cut by eaglehawk I mostly agree with what he's said about the mechanics of this thread.

As I didn't get a chance to say it with Hilo posting, I'm excited to co-host this thread and looking forward to some great discussion!
 
#13
I strongly disagree with Empoleon rising from A- to A+. First, as a defogger it's not really that much reliable since most stealth rock setters like Aggron, Swampert, can punish it on the switch or on the turn it clicks defog with Earthquake, so rocks are gonna be on the field until you find an opportunity to bring in Empoleon. Second, one of its main roles is to switch on Latias, however these days Z-Thunderbolt is really common on Latias and you can't find out which z-move it's running until it clicks it, so Empoleon isn't a reliable Latias counter anymore. I don't really know about Togekiss but I've seen people running Z-Aurasphere to break through Empoleon. Thus, Empoleon is a very splashable mon for Bulky Offense that can fill many roles at the same time but I feel like it's too risky to use in fatter builds. I originally thought it deserved to be A- but given the fact that it's probably the best stealth rock setter in the tier given how easy it is to bring in and to punish removers with scald, toxic and knock I think Empoleon should drop to A.

Cobalion from A to A+ (Agree): Cobalion is a fantastic mon for offensive teams being able to check both Scizor and Sharpedo-Mega while putting a huge pressure on scarf users like Krookodile and Hydreigon that are afraid of locking into a dark move. On top of that it can destroys walls like Hippowdon and Swampert for other mons to come later, and it can either sweep with its Double Dance set or use that pressure to setup rocks. Among his counters, many fear Corkscrew Crash, some can be pursuit trapped and others can be punished by
Cobalion @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Calm Mind
which became really good after the Gliscor rise.
 
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#14
Wanted to give my thoughts on the new thread discussion points.
Cobalion from A to A+ (Agree): Cobalion is still one of the best set-up sweepers in the tier, packing both boosting options in Rock Polish and SD plus a real good typing and extremely good physical bulk that let it SD or RP on things like Scizor and also not being able to be killed by Scarf Krook without some chip damage. Threatening several of top mons in the tier like Mamoswine, Empoleon and Togekiss is also another plus for it, as well as taking advantage of Choice users locked into Dark type attacks just gives it more set-up opportunities. It even works as a good utility mon with things like Taunt and T-Wave, overall, i still think this mon has a lot of tools that represent a A+ mon and that it should rise there.
Terrakion from A to A+ (Agree): This mon is an excellent breaker in the tier, being able to destroy defensive monsters like Slowbro with it's Rockium-Z set shows how potent this thing can be. Just like Cobalion, being able to abuse the use of Scarf Krookodile locked into Knock Off is really good considering how used it is. Also, the possibility of running Choice items like Band which gives it inmediate power and next to no switch-ins in the tier and the Scarf set is just an exceptional revenge killer, all these reasons makes me think Terrakion deserves a rise.
Infernape from B+ to A- (Agree): I honestly have no idea why this thing dropped that hard in the first place, while Scarf is not as good as it used to right now in the meta, the NP set just shines with really few switch-ins after a boost and most of those switch-ins get bopped by Fightinium-Z Focus Blast with some chip, Nape is also a really versatile mon with good momentum in U-turn and several options like Gunk Shot and Stone Edge (For Moltres and Chandelure). The Band set is also really good to act as a wallbreaker in the tier, overall, dropping this mon 2 ranks is honestly way too much for the offensive capabilities it has, so i think it should rise.
Stakataka from B+ to A- (On the fence): I always looked at this mon as a one-trick pony for the most part but after battling some really defensive Stakatakas in the tier i can say i was wrong, however, while i think this new set is good at walling a lot of the physical mons in the tier, i dont feel is that big of an improvement from the OTR set in terms of consistensy, lacking recovery and being susceptible to Spikes can be detrimental to this mon since it'll be taking damage everytime it comes in. I overall wouldnt care much if this mon rises or not, but im leaning more towards just leave it in B+.
Doublade from B to B- (Agree): Walling mons like Cobalion, Terrakion and Scizor is always good, however, while this mon is good at that, it's extremely horrendous agaisnt special wallbreakers, having a bad matchup agaisnt most of the bulky waters and things like Hydreigon and Primarina is just bad, hence, why i think it should drop a rank.
Mega-Pidgeot from B to B- (Agree): This thing aint in a good spot as of now, the influx of Empoleon which walls it left and right isnt optimal for it, the weakness to Stealth Rocks and the pitiful bulk gives it next to no defensive utility and plenty of common scarfers can OHKO after rocks damage like Hydreigon, Latias and Terrakion, this also makes it susceptible to being revenge killed easily by Scizor or Mamoswine, overall, i feel like this mon has seen better days but as far as meta trends go, Mega-Pidgeot isnt the best option for a mega right now and hence why i think it should drop.
Sylveon from B to B- (Agree): It's inevitable to not compare Sylveon with Florges when they are mentioned in the thread, this shouldn't surprise anyone considering both do the bulky Fairy role in balance teams. However, as of now, Balance with Wish support had been on a decline being replaced by other balance cores like Hippowdown + Empoleon which fare very well agaisnt the metagame trends. The unreliance on Wish on Balance doenst give Sylveon an edge over Florges as of now considering how customizable Florges is with other options like Defog and Synthesis which makes her more self sufficient and effective. The influx of Spike offense also hurts Sylveon role as a wish passer with the big amount of chip it'll be taking on every switchin, overall, while i feel Sylveon is still a good fairy, the meta is a bit unkind to it's main role and hence why i think it should drop.
Chesnaught from B- to B (Agree): While Chesnaught might not be the face of Spike offense, it's the best spike user in stall teams and its extremely good at it, being able to set up on most of the physical attackers racking up chip damage easily with Leech Seed + Spiky Shield/Roar makes it extremely good, the utility and bulk is just amazing on this one and it has been seeing a bit of play in the ladder, overall, Chesnaught is the best at it's role in the Stall Archetype and it deserves a raise in my eyes for how effective it is.

I really have no opinion on Zygarde-10% since i never really battled one but i think it's ok where it is.
 

Amane Misa

ідіот
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
#15
  • Infernape B+ -> A-: Yes
People badmouth Choice Scarf Infernape for no good reason. It is still a really good set and it even appreciates common metagame trends, including Hydreigon and Krookodile being as common as ever (it still appreciates Scizor being everywhere). It can freely U-turn on them and even chip counters such as Hippowdon and Slowbro in combination with entry hazards. Then, a wallbreaker can be brought in to take advantage of Infernape's switch-ins. This strategy is good against both offensive and balanced teams and has been proved to be reliable for ages.
  • Doublade B -> B-: No
I have been using Doublade a lot lately on balance and it's a very good Pokemon right now. It serves as a great blanket check to common threats to slower teams including Lucario, Toxicroak, and Scizor. Doublade can also check certain Special attackers such as Latias, depending on their set.
 
#16
Usually I just come to VR to agree/disagree with one or two drop proposals or nom something weird that ends up getting ranked anyway. This time, I've come to actually just discuss the whole discussion slate.
Discussion Points
Cobalion A -> A+: Agree. The CM set is returning with a vengeance, and in some cases it can actually make Cobalion quite a pest to some of it's previous surefire answers. Such a set is also a much needed adaptation when it's Swords Dance set is falling victim to all the Terrak answers like the Bros and Gligar coming out of the woodwork.
Terrakion A -> A+: Disagree. Speaking of Terrakion's answers coming out of the woodwork, I don't think Terrakion is quite in the same position it was when Gliscor just moved up, where it was arguably the most dominant wallbreaker. It's still EXTREMELY potent and needs to be prepared for on every team, don't get me wrong. But with the Bros returning in full force, and other weird answers like Gligar and Palossand emerging, Terrakion feels much easier to prepare for. Still an extremely dominant threat that needs to be prepped for on every team, but it's chokehold doesn't feel oppressive enough for A+ anymore.
Infernape B+ -> A-: Agree. Its still the fastest nasty plot user in the tier, having a good stall matchup while not sacrificing the matchup against most offensive builds. Other sets like Slack Off Life Orb and Non-choiced U-turn that Freeroamer mentioned are also keeping it extremely relevant. Infernape is a mon that will always be dominant, and always adapt to the meta. Even if it's physical sets like band and scarf have gotten hit hard due to the trends, it has more than enough sets to keep it kicking. I'd even argue it's still A material. Infernape feels like one of those mons that can consistently defend the A-rank because of how versatile and adaptable it is.
Stakataka B+ -> A-: Agree. The Defensive set has been a boon to stall builds, helping it against many oppressive stallbreakers, most notably Togekiss, who stall usually has room for error against considering it's ability to flinch hax many of it's slower answers. Stakataka walls Togekiss into oblivion and thus doesn't typically fall victim to this. Matching up against Dragon stallbreakers in the vein of CM Latias and Taunt Hydra is also a big help.
Doublade B -> B-: Disagree. Terrakion and Cobalion's dominance is enough of an argument alone to keep this where it is. Checking other valuable mons like Latias in the same slot is very comforting for teambuilding as well. It also appreciates the decreased dominance of various bulky waters and grounds like Suicune, Rhyperior, and Swampert that all gave it heartache. Doublade is in a pretty fantastic place right now, and it's rank shouldn't be touched.
Mega Pidgeot B -> B-: Agree. This mon hasn't been in a good place in a long time. I'd argue it's decline began even as early as Breloom meta. It's faced constant competition from mons like Moltres and Togekiss, who have superior typings and are arguably better than Pidgeot in it's offensive and Stallbreaker sets respectively. Hell, the stallbreaker set isn't even viable anymore due to the rise of mons like Aerodactyl-Mega and Defensive Stakataka on stall builds. The dominance of mons like Empoleon, Rotom-Heat, and the necessity of a flying check in general also hasn't been very good for dear Mega Pidgeot. I could even see it falling further if this pace continues.
Sylveon B -> B-: Disagree. I don't think Florges is necessarily better than this right now. it still passes much bigger wishes and it's overall higher damage output stacking it's pixilate hyper voice vs Florges' moonblast is a good niche for it too. It's overall higher physical bulk can also come in clutch against various setup dragons like Haxorus and Kommo-o (It gets more favorable rolls against both of the above when they're at +1.) I don't feel like it's better than Florges, but I feel like there's enough of a debate that we can keep Florges and Sylveon at the same rank.
Chesnaught B- -> B: Disagree. Chesnaught has asserted itself back into the fray, but I don't feel like it's becoming enough of a centralizing force to rise even further. There's still plenty of defoggers that can mess with it, and meta trends like flyings, Rotom-H, and Chandelure that can really ruin it's reign.
Zygarde-10% C -> C+: Agree. With Gliscor gone, and no longer being the dominant floating mon, Zydog is really starting to stand out. Thousand Arrows can actually do good damage to a lot of the common ground immunities right now like Togekiss, Rotom-H, Hydreigon, Latias, and Moltres. It also appreciates the stray away from every electric running HP ice.
 
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#17
Snorlax to B or B+
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-800867227
Rest talk has been overlooked because of the new berry this gen. A thick fat lax that doesn't die off when poisoned is really good right now. A great partner for it is pivot slowbro, something that's been up and coming for a while. Even with mons like terrakion, cobalion, and superpower scizor being very common, I've found sleep talk lax effective in those match ups. Ghost types are not common and are easily exploited through pursuit. Body slam is a nice way to punish fighting type switch ins. Snorlax does need a bit of support to pull off but I think a ranking in upper B is well suited for it.
 
#18
I'm going to be brief by each pokemon otherwise will take too long lol

Cobalion A -> A+: Agree
Excellent pokemon, one of the best SR mons to use on bulky offense builds. Solid sweeper thanks to SD + Rock Polish with Z-move, can even use CM set to break easier with stuff as Slowbro or Jellicent. As highlight Cobalion its one of the best offensive checks against Hydreigon.

Terrakion A -> A+: Agree
Terrakion without doubt its one of the biggest threats in UU atm. Choice Band and SD Fightium or Rockium are so scary. Sets as SR + SD or Scarf are definitely usable. Terrakion forces to most teams to use solid rock and fight resist but at the same team to have certain ways to stop Terrakion after SD boost, Rock Polish its a big threat against more offensive builds if they're not running something like Scizor, Crawdaunt or Doublade.

Infernape B+ -> A-: Agree
This thing has so many options to run, Nasty Plot its easily best current set because can potentially break stall and balance, Choice Scarf sucks against fat or balance teams that are fat-build oriented but its very good against offense builds thanks to their Fight STAB + faster than other common scarfs such like Krookodile or Hydreigon + resist common priorities like Bullet Bunch from Scizor or Ice Shard from Mamoswine + U-turn to scout and gain momentum.

Stakataka B+ -> A-: Disagree
Personally I don't think Trick Room + Defensive set its enought to the cut-off to A ranks. B+ seems accurate to me.

Doublade B -> B-: Disagree
Blades its one of the most solid answer to Terrakion in the current meta which is huge, but also checks Cobalion, M-Aerodactyl, Scizor (depending on the set), Snorlax, DD M-Altaria, DD Kommo and Reuniclus, can even soft-check Latias depending on the set. Doublade its very underwhelming but this is why deserves to be ranked on B rank and not higher but B- its probably a bit low for Doublade.

Mega Pidgeot B -> B-: Agree
I think M-Pidgeot its much better than this but its a bit bad against the current meta, most teams has ways to deal with Mega-Pidgeot atm.

Sylveon B -> B-: Disagree
Sylveon and Florges deserves to be ranked on the same rank. I dont think Defog + Synthesis (few PP and unreliable with Sand Storm) on Florges its enough to rank it higher than Sylveon.

Chesnaught B- -> B: Disagree
Chesnaught niche fits better on B- than B rank, happens similar to Bronzong, fits well only on certain builds.

Zygarde-10% C -> C+: No opinion yet
 
#19
Glad to get first blood. Also sorry for pretty much being a complete dick currently in Showdown’s chat (I’ve been having a terrible case of tilt atm). Now I’ll discuss a Pokémon that I didn’t talk about in my first post.

Tornadus to B
Tornadus is without a doubt the most criminally underrated Pokémon in the UnderUsed Metagame. This thing is slept on really hard and it’s quite sad. Hilo pmed me the All Out Attacking set for Tornadus and it’s slept on. This is one of the very few Flying types that likes the influx of Empoleon’s usage. It easily gains a Defiant boost from Defog and then clicks Superpower for a clean OHKO. So here’s the set:

Tornadus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Superpower
- Grass Knot

Grass Knot looks like a weird choice on this set but you nab the KO on Swampert, Rhyperior, and lets you revenge kill Terrakion. Defiant only boosts Superpower but this does let you abuse Defog from the opposing team and OHKOs Empoleon as I mentioned before, Stakataka, and Nihilego. Torn also has an amazing speed tier, out speeding Latias without Scarf (I haven’t seen Scarfed Latias in a long time though), Gengar without Scarf, Nihilego without Scarf, Moltres, Cobalion, Terrakion, Hydreigon without Scarf, and Infernape without Scarf to name a few. Tornadus just feels like it’s a Mega Pidgeot that doesn’t use up your Mega slot that also has immediate power because Life Orb boosted Hurricane hits ridiculously hard (drop that Birb to B-).

I also got a replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-800998414 (I lost this one because I sacked too much but Tornadus got an easy Defiant boost from Steelvally and nabs two KOs while putting a massive dent into Mega Bro)

I’ll go post more replays if I get any more good ones.
 

Sun

Who cares if one more light goes out? Well I do...
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
#20
to S
idk why this monster's still A+ honestly lmao. everyone here know what hydreigon is able to do in the current metagame, it has an amazing offensive type, it can run multiple sets, such as choice specs/scarf, dragonium + Defog, Poisonium z to nuke mainly fairy types that naturally checks it, Taunt variants which act as stallbreaker are very cool and effective, we saw also a fightium z hydreigon in SSD used by Sage iirc, which is very cool honestly because it break through stuff like empoleon and defensive stakataka, hydreigon's also a very cool defogger being able to beat a lot of rock setters, it's typing is also very good defensively since allows it to check mons like krookodile, Chandelure, mega shark, Crawdaunt (this monster should be used more btw it's lit). Another huge thing i noticed about Hydreigon is the difficulty to scout it's set in some match ups, it literally punishes fairy-less teams so easily with the right set. it also likes metagame trends, both rotoms rise in usage, sylveon balance teams usage dropped a lot and florges does not always have a safe recovery in a metagame where hippowdon is really common, Togekiss is, in my opinion, it's best answer at the moment, even tho you have to be careful with rocks of course. i believe this thing deserve it's S rank.


to B
despite it's usage it's not very high iirc, crawdaunt has some interesting points to rise in my opinion, the rise of empoleon+hippo teams is beneficial for it, it's a very strong wallbreaker, i think CB is still its the best set currently which is able to threaten a lot of common defensive cores like the aforementioned empo+hippo, alo+bliss+bro, coverage like superpower allows it to break through hydreigon and cobalion, i tried it in this team https://pokepast.es/af448edee790c2d3 i made the other day. crawdaunt's also very interesting because, despite it's bad speed, is able to threaten a lot of pokemons with it's priority, it can also take advantage of locked mons like cb scizor and scarf hydreigon in bullet punch and dark pulse respectively to come in w/o taking so much ad start to deal damage easily.


rise them all
i will not spend much words for those fighting types, all of them deserve to rise, napes very good balance breaker rn with nasty plot z being able to break a huge portion of balance cores, paired with krook, of course, it has a easier time, choice-less u turn mixed variants with both expert belt or Life orb have been used recently with great success in SSD and UU open ad im glad to hear that because mixed infernape is very underrated.

Cobalion's always threatening and now more than ever since gliscor left the tier, double dance and sd rocks z variants are still very very good from what i saw, cm got some usage too to handle slowbros and jellicent which is really cool tbh, also it's typing it's awesome as it checks stuff like crawdaunt, scizor, hydreigon, Kyurem, mega altaria ad mamoswine.

Terrakion is one of the most scary wallbreakers at the moment, SD fightium and rockium allows it to break through stuff like hippo, jellicent and slowbro which is ridicolous lol, with rock polish it threatens offenisve builds in general ad it has to take care for priority moves from scizor and crawdaunt. choice scarf and choice band sets are good in my opinion, but not amazing, they still have a niche tho. the z variants are its best sets in the current metagame. All of those fighting types should rise in my opinion.
 
#21
Crawduant should def be at least B+ imo.
I can post many replays of him just screwing all kinds of teams up by just clicking buttons. He destroys stall easily, an amazing cleaner vs offense, and a huge force vs balance teams.
He does have his setbacks, namely the lack of bulk, the lack of viable sets other than band and the need for his teammates as a switch in.
But hes great at what he does best. And that is breaking teams up by clicking bottoms. There are too few viable checks to the crab.
For example, banded crabhammer is an easy 2ohko to many of his resisted checks. After rocks, he can 2ohko mons like amoungus, depending on his evs, with crabhammer.
Edit: agreed on the hydreigon rise to S. Imo the best mon in the game with so many viable sets. Scarf, specs, z move, roost, semi bulky semi offensive.... all kinds of z move, namely dragon and poison. There are no true switch ins to him. It can carry any set it wants. Hell it can even carry superpower just to destroy empoleons.
 
#22
Been awhile since I last nominated or just agreed/disagreed with one's nominations, but I've always been checking in every now again. I thought this time I would give verdict on the discussion points, as well as my own nomination:

Cobalion [A -> A+] [Agree] - Cobalion to me still proves meta defining, which is essentially A+. Probably the best offensive SR in the tier and one of the more threatening setup sweepers with Rock Polish, Swords Dance, Double Dance and even the odd Calm Mind for the likes of Slowbro. It should rise A+ again.

Terrakion [A -> A+] [Agree] - Arguably one of [if not] the best wall-breakers in the tier right now, SD Z Terrakion has very little switch-ins in the tier, outside of the likes of Mega Bro, Doublade etc. Rock Polish clear through offensive teams lacking Scizor and Choice Band hits absurdly hard.

Infernape [B+ -> A-] [Agree] - Infernape shouldn't have dropped this far, Scarf has dropped off in viability but Nasty Plot and Choice Band have picked up great usage to much success in breaking bulkier teams. Even though Scarf has dropped off, it still excels against offensive teams. Raise the ape back to A-.

Stakataka [B+ -> A-] [No Comment] I don't primarily use Stall, so I can't give a clear verdict on this one. If someone could explain the role of Defensive Staka does for Stall, then I'll be more than obliged to give a proper verdict.

Doublade [B -> B-] [Disagree] Doublade still excels at checking the likes of top tier threats such as Terrakion, Cobalion, Altaria, Aerodactyl etc. Whilst the argument could be made of strong Special Wall-breakers mess with Doublade greatly, it's niche of checking such threats I have listed should keep it B.

Mega Pidgeot [B -> B-] [Agree]
Poor big bird can't catch a break. The influx of Empoleon on balance builds have hindered it greatly, threats such as Mamoswine and Terrakion which can easily revenge kill and finally the icing on the cake, the stall-breaker set isn't holding up anymore. Drop big bird to B-.

Sylveon [B -> B-] [Agree]
Wish passing has dropped off in balance builds for the more reliable core of Hippo + Emp, right now the invaluable room for a fourth move slot makes Florges a better choice right now.

Other Nominations:

Hydreigon [A+ -> S] [Agree] The sheer multitude of sets and roles it can compress is truly S rank material. Choice Specs/Scarf, Dragonium + Defog, Poisonium Z and Taunt Stallbreaker have great success in the tier. Taunt + Roost Hydreigon beats common meta trends such as Hippo + Emp whilst also pressuring Stall. Poisonium Z allows it break through Pokemon such as Primarina and Florges easier, whilst Dragonium offer a nuke option against bulkier Pokemon. Dragonium sets also offer role compression as a Defogger. Choice Scarf allows it pivot around walls into powerful breakers such as Terrakion, Mamoswine and Cobalion, whilst also revenge killing Pokemon such as Latias, Manectric etc. Finally Choice Specs offers consistent strong damage output. Honestly I could ramble on about this thing being S rank material, it should rise.

Houndoom-Mega [B -> B+] [Agree] This Pokemon preys upon popular meta choices, it speed tier is great against the likes of Latias, Cobalion, Gengar etc. allowing it to revenge kill them. Nasty Plot breaks the infamous Hippo + Emp core, as well popular Pokemon such as Amoonguss, Slowbro and the new spark of Jellicent. Honestly I think it should be A- at least, but it can rise to B+ for now. #FreeDoom

Finally my own nomination:

Sceptile-Mega [B- -> B] Yes, I'm back at it again with Sceptile. Seriously though, this thing loves that Hippo + Emp are the back bones of balance or bulky offensive teams. It preys on current meta picks such as Slowbro and Jellicent, whilst capable of revenge killing threats such as Latias, Hydreigon, Manectric, Terrakion etc. Modest variants can pick up easier OHKOs on Pokemon such as Latias, Manectric and Hydreigon [who is always OHKO from Modest], as well as the 100% 3HKO on Amoonguss that Timid variants could not achieve [78.3%]. It also helps that most Manectrics run HP Grass over Ice, so Modest isn't so much of a risk now [Also most Scarfers are above base 80 speed anyway, which Timid Sceptile outsped]. Also, Sceptile now longer faces competition with Serperior which it sorely confronted as a Special Grass-type. Overall I think Sceptile should be at least B for the time being.
 
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#23
Freshgamer, If you have some replays of Mega Houndoom doing work id love to see them. I have almost never seen it on the ladder, and certainly not in tournament play. And the few times I have used it or faced it I have been very dissapointed.

But, because of the things you mention, I wanna try and build with it. Although I have some issues preventing me from making succesful teams with it. The first problem is that for a mega, its not very fast at all. The other megas like manectric, aero, sceptile and beedrill are so fast they act as speed control by themselves because they outspeed scarfers with 80 base speed and everything else in the tier. Basically acting as scarfers themselves in a way, which gives you more leeway when building. Doom is just fast, but not fast enough imo. As a scizor revenge killer, manectric does that job so much better. And doom is just not a latias rkiller at all. I think all latias rkillers need to be able to take it out when its at +1 sp def. Which doom cannot do.

My last problem is that it invites in Terrakion, kommo, and primarina depending on your set. Getting a sweep going in tier where scarf hydreigon is everywhere is not very easy either, and in most cases you end up firing off fire blasts and dpulses vs the mons I mentioned as they switch in. But since doom is relatively hard to get into play, thats not gonna happen enough til where you are able to break through in my experience.

That being said I think it has some valuable traits, I just havent been able to use it succesfully. But thats also kinda the reason I dont think it should rise. Its spashability is very bad, and It is probably the hardest mega in the tier to fit on a team.
 

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#24

Infernape [B+ -> A-] [Agree]

Infernape is incredible at the moment vs all the fat and still does well vs offense. While it's scarf set has fallen off, the Nasty Plot set and the "newer" Slack Off + LO (which can find opportunities to heal vs bulkier teams) or Choice Band /Belt set all allow Infernape to break through common builds of Hippo + Empoleon, or Slowbro + M-Aggron, and still do well vs offense. A higher speed tier than Hydreigon and with Krookodile being so good right now and checking one of Infernapes best answers in Latias, I don't see a reason why it shouldn't move up. The Nasty Plot set in particular is super nice vs fat, especially with fat teams in-ability to K0 ape from full, leaving it in blaze range for the most part, making its moves that much more threatening.

A few tournament replays of Infernape showing its worth:
NP: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-393699
Slack Off (Would have put in more work if it got the roll on Togekiss): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-394140
Belt?: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-394535

This one is older during the M-Venu meta, my g3 for one of the rounds of the UU Open but the point still stands
NP: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-785000389
 
#25

from A+ rank to S rank: I agree with everything said above about Hydreigon. Its easily one of the most consistent pokemon to use in the tier. Every Hydreigon set its excellent. As Scarf its one of the best picks to use in the tier, one of the best defoggers in the tier thanks to roost + inmunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, Choice Specs set has few checks outside of SpD bulky fairies, Primarina and Blissey. A Taunt set its good to deal better with most fat builds that runs Blissey. Even its possible to use several Hydreigon lures set to beat their best checks, as Z-Belch Hydreigon to kill fairies. Another highlight on Hydreigon its their typing + levitate that makes a pokemon with many inmunities and resists that makes Hydreigon an excellent pokemon to pivot around. Hydreigon fits well on every playstyle that is something to have in account to nominate certain pokemon to S rank, I have been testing lately Hydreigon on stall and its excellent thanks to their typing which makes it a great teammate to beat some common stallbreakers.


from A+ rank to A rank: Actually I think Empoleon fits better on A rank with Hippowdon, the jump from A- to A+ was a bit high and undeserved. I think many threats pressures well enough to rank A+. Fight types are common and all of them faster than Empoleon being able to kill it, Scizor CB with Superpower kills it or proceed to Sword Dance then kill it (you rely on burn it), Latias CM Electrium its one of the best Latias set and still breaks Empoleon. Togekiss and Suicune beats you 1vs1 scenario, many others top threats pressures you a lot as Mega-Manectric, Mamoswine; Mega-Aerodactyl and Mega-Sharpedo (both 2HKO Empoleon). Against threats as Hippowdown or Mega-Aggron pressures you cause EQ 2hko Empoleon so you have to switch out or rely on scald burn and the list goes on. Empoleon checks bulky waters and then ends getting burned which sucks in the long run. Overall I should say Empoleon its a excellent pokemon on balance builds but has enough flaws to keep it on A rank because how many common threats pressures Empoleon, the support Empoleon needs on the back (see: Hippowdon, cleric, or a good defensive backbone in the back to stop fight types). Not saying Empoleon is bad, I'm just focused on listing all Empoleon flaws, obviously Empoleon is pretty good but not A+ rank wise.


from B rank to B- rank: Bronzong in B rank seems a bit out of place, specially being higher ranked than threats such like Crawdaunt and Reuniclus ranked in B-, Bronzong its an underwhelming pokemon that only fits well on certain balance builds with Tentacruel + Scarf Krookodile as temmates, its a bad pokemon outside of those builds. Bronzong its supposed to do many things in the paper as SR user + check all-around vs certain threats but in the practice its a different story cause its very passive pokemon and pursuit weak.


from UR to C- rank: Virizion Sword Dance-Z has a niche on this metagame with Krookodile, Slowbro and Mega-Slowbro popularity, Virizion its a good stallbreaker that can destroy most stall builds and even balance ones with some support. Virizion unlike other stallbreakers as SD Decidueye or CM Chandelure its not pursuit bait. Also Virizion has the ability of breaking some defensive walls that are supposed to check other fight types as Mega-Slowbro, Slowbro, Hippowdon, Gligar and Palossand. Another Virizion hightlight is a great check against Krookodile thats is used on everywhere. Obviously Virizion requires certain support and should be used on more oriented balance builds, but its enough good to be listed on the vr or at least in the current metagame.
 

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