USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V3

[SacredLatias]

OK, lets do a quick VR of some mons i've had my eyes on.

B+->B= Agree: Chesnaught hype has died down since Zeraora and Bisharp dropped to uu. It has spikes and a decent typing, and counters Mega Steelix if it isnt carrying toxic. Its big problem rears its head when you look at the current meta. Mega Aerodactyl, Moltres, and heatom force out chesnaught, and it lacks reliable offensive presence.

S ->A+: What are you on right now: So one of the most customizable, potent threats in underused should be A+? Are you actually kidding me? Hydreigon is immensely powerful, forcing so many switches and 50/50s in the tier with its strong stab and coverage. A mon that has an option for damn near everything the tier has to throw at it should be A+? Get sober and come on back.

A->A-: 50/50: Mamoswine is quite a good pokemon right now, terrorizing defensive teams, keeping rocks up, and being able to set them itself. While it does have a honestly atrocious typing defensively, it more than makes up for it offensively, being able to pressure many popular pokemon such as mega aerodactyl, hydreigon, latias, empoleon, amoongus, the list goes on. Mamoswine is a monster, but it does lack support and bulk which is why i'm still 50/50 on it.

(thanks for pointing out my mistake prism ^w^)

 

[Zevgram Agari]

Zoroark from Unranked to C/C+

Zoroark was a big threat in RU this gen, which even resultet in it's ban. Since then, it has gone under the radar because most UU players used other dark types over it (Mega Sharpedo, Krookodile, Mega Absol to a lesser extend, Bisharp recently...) which all fit better on most playstyles than Zoroark.

However, on one playstyle Zoroark has a viable niche over all of those before mentioned Pokemon in it's ability illusion: Hyper Offense
Zoroarks role on an HO team is to abuse it's ability to take out checks/counters to it's teammates enabling them to sweep, and it can achieve that in a way that is not covered by Bisharp/Mega Absol. I made a team build around Zoroark and will show 2 replays of the team used to success against 1500+ opponents:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-853404950 1st replay:

At team preview, NP Celebi was very threatening to my opponent's team, so I disguised Zoroark as Celebi- to take out the only counter to my set, Blissey. My opponent leads with his (likely) specs Primarina, I lead with Omastar to get up SR and sack it. I then go into Zoroark (disguised as Celebi!) to threaten out the Primarina and SD on the switch into Blissey to take it out with +2 Knock Off. Rest of the replay is pretty much the Celebi sweeping.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-853346715 2nd replay:

Again, NP Celebi is a threat to my opponents team, Zoroark is disguised as Celebi again to take out atleast the potential scarf Volcanion or Doublade. It ends up taking out both, then the game is finished with some other sweepers.

Both of the replays show very well imo why Zoroark has a niche over for example Bisharp and Mega-Absol because while they both are the arguably better sweepers, in this replays they would not have lured in the Celebi answers for obvious reasons (they are not disguised).

Also, don't be to hard on me if you don't agree, since this was my first post like this (:

 

[SacredLatias]

Zoroark from Unranked to C/C+

Zoroark was a big threat in RU this gen, which even resultet in it's ban. Since then, it has gone under the radar because most UU players used other dark types over it (Mega Sharpedo, Krookodile, Mega Absol to a lesser extend, Bisharp recently...) which all fit better on most playstyles than Zoroark.

However, on one playstyle Zoroark has a viable niche over all of those before mentioned Pokemon in it's ability illusion: Hyper Offense
Zoroarks role on an HO team is to abuse it's ability to take out checks/counters to it's teammates enabling them to sweep, and it can achieve that in a way that is not covered by Bisharp/Mega Absol. I made a team build around Zoroark and will show 2 replays of the team used to success and 1500+ opoonents:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-853404950 1st replay:

At team preview, NP Celebi was very threatening to my opponent's team, so I disguised Zoroark as Celebi- to take out the only counter to my set, Blissey. My opoonent leads with his (likely) specs Primarina, I lead with Omastar to get up SR and sack it. I then go into Zoroark (disguised as Celebi!) to threaten out the Primarina and SD on the switch into Blissey to take it out with +2 Knock Off. Rest of the replay is pretty much the Celebi sweeping.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-853346715 2nd replay:

Again, NP Celebi is a threat to my opponents team, Zoroark is disguised as Celebi again to take out atleast the potential scarf Volcanion or Doublade. It ends up taking out both, then the game is finished with some other sweepers.

Both of the replays show very well imo why Zoroark has a niche over for example Bisharp and Mega-Absol because while they both are the arguably better sweepers, in this replays they would not have lured in the Celebi answers for obvious reasons (they are not disguised).

Also, don't be to hard on me if you don't agree, since this was my first post like this (:

While I somewhat agree, its awful bulk leaves it wide open for priority users to bust through it. It should stay unranked, because zoroarks gimmick is just that, a gimmick. Its the best lure in the game because of said gimmick, but team preview really fucks this mon over because you know its zoro after one move. Not to mention many popular pokemon in the meta outspeed it, because of its only decent speed tier.

 

[War Incarnate]

OK, lets do a quick VR of some mons i've had my eyes on.

View attachment 156908B+->B= Agree: Chesnaught hype has died down since Zeraora and Bisharp dropped to uu. It has spikes and a decent typing, and counters Mega Steelix if it isnt carrying toxic. Its big problem rears its head when you look at the current meta. Mega Aerodactyl, Moltres, and heatom force out chesnaught, and it lacks reliable offensive presence.


View attachment 156909A->A= Agree: Mega Sharpedo has been making a big name for itself in underused, as a premier wallbreaker on many teams. Its amazing power, decent coverage, and good speed allow it to effectively sweep teams, especially with spike or rock support. An absolute monster, I fully support it moving up.


View attachment 156910S ->A+: What are you on right now: So one of the most customizable, potent threats in underused should be A+? Are you actually kidding me? Hydreigon is immensely powerful, forcing so many switches and 50/50s in the tier with its strong stab and coverage. A mon that has an option for damn near everything the tier has to throw at it should be A+? Get sober and come on back.


View attachment 156913 A->A-: 50/50: Mamoswine is quite a good pokemon right now, terrorizing defensive teams, keeping rocks up, and being able to set them itself. While it does have a honestly atrocious typing defensively, it more than makes up for it offensively, being able to pressure many popular pokemon such as mega aerodactyl, hydreigon, latias, empoleon, amoongus, the list goes on. Mamoswine is a monster, but it does lack support and bulk which is why i'm still 50/50 on it.

Of course, I love your post, SacredLatias. But let me talk about some of the noms you pointed out here, SacredLatias. You ready?

Let's do this!

Chesnaught to B: Probably
While I love Chesnaught as it has Spikes and a decent typing, the largest problem lies in the meta as it is now. Mega Aerodactyl, Moltres, and Rotom-H are super common here, and you know what they do to Chesnaught? They force it out without having to even worry about Spikes. But do you know what's worse? No offensive presence. This means that forcing this guy out is quite easy. Because of all this, I think this should probably drop to B.
Mega Sharpedo to A: One, wasn't this guy already in A? And two, I already gave my thoughts. Oh, and I STRONGLY DISAGREE with this nom and I think Mega Sharpedo should drop to A-.
Hydreigon to A+: No. What the hell are people thinking?
This has to be one of the most versatile pokemon in all of UU. It's also very powerful, forcing many switches, and 50/50's in the meta with its super-humanely strong STAB combo and coverage. A mon that has an option for pretty much everything the tier has to throw at it has to be A+? I'd much rather eat Alolan Muk than say yes to such an appalling nom.
Mamoswine to A-: Undecided
This is undoubtedly a defensive team's worst nightmare. Having a great offensive typing allows it to rip through even the strongest walls. It can keep SR up and can set up its own SR. It has one of the worst defensive typings, but being able to pressure some of the uber gods of UU, such as Mega Aerodactyl, Hydreigon, Latias, and even Empoleon (to name a few) alleviates this issue to a large extent. However, it lacks support and bulk, which is why I'm not sure about whether to say yes or no to a nom like this.

Signing off!

 

[Sickist]

Zoroark from Unranked to C/C+

Zoroark was a big threat in RU this gen, which even resultet in it's ban. Since then, it has gone under the radar because most UU players used other dark types over it (Mega Sharpedo, Krookodile, Mega Absol to a lesser extend, Bisharp recently...) which all fit better on most playstyles than Zoroark.

However, on one playstyle Zoroark has a viable niche over all of those before mentioned Pokemon in it's ability illusion: Hyper Offense
Zoroarks role on an HO team is to abuse it's ability to take out checks/counters to it's teammates enabling them to sweep, and it can achieve that in a way that is not covered by Bisharp/Mega Absol. I made a team build around Zoroark and will show 2 replays of the team used to success and 1500+ opoonents:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-853404950 1st replay:

At team preview, NP Celebi was very threatening to my opponent's team, so I disguised Zoroark as Celebi- to take out the only counter to my set, Blissey. My opoonent leads with his (likely) specs Primarina, I lead with Omastar to get up SR and sack it. I then go into Zoroark (disguised as Celebi!) to threaten out the Primarina and SD on the switch into Blissey to take it out with +2 Knock Off. Rest of the replay is pretty much the Celebi sweeping.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-853346715 2nd replay:

Again, NP Celebi is a threat to my opponents team, Zoroark is disguised as Celebi again to take out atleast the potential scarf Volcanion or Doublade. It ends up taking out both, then the game is finished with some other sweepers.

Both of the replays show very well imo why Zoroark has a niche over for example Bisharp and Mega-Absol because while they both are the arguably better sweepers, in this replays they would not have lured in the Celebi answers for obvious reasons (they are not disguised).

Also, don't be to hard on me if you don't agree, since this was my first post like this (:

While I somewhat agree, its awful bulk leaves it wide open for priority users to bust through it. It should stay unranked, because zoroarks gimmick is just that, a gimmick. Its the best lure in the game because of said gimmick, but team preview really fucks this mon over because you know its zoro after one move. Not to mention many popular pokemon in the meta outspeed it, because of its only decent speed tier.

Adding on to what SacredLatias said, The influx of fighting types and priority (Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, etc.) kinda just defeat the purpose of Zoroark. Yes, it has some positive traits, but they are WAY overshadowed by its flaws.

Therefore, don't rank Zoroark.

 

[avarice]

Reuniclus B- --> B

CM

Reuniclus @ Buginium Z / Psychium Z / Fightinium Z / Poisonium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Psyshock
- Signal Beam / Energy Ball / Focus Blast / Toxic

OTR

Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic

Reuniclus is one my favorite pokemon and I believe it sets itself apart from the other pokemon in B-. First, I’d like to note that while versatility isn’t a sole reason for something being viable it’s definitely helpful. The CM set has a multitude of options. And all of them are viable and function well with he proper team support. Really hate stall? Go for Energy ball. Want to screw over common checks like Krookodile and Zeraora? Z-Toxic has you covered with that defense boost. Feeling shaky against Latias and Celebi? Z-Signal Beam works well. Can’t decide? Focus Blast is still reliable as ever. The OTR Set can’t break stall, but is super cool against Offense and can be a surprisingly effective cleaner— especially with (Scarf) Hydreigon and M-Shark being common on HO. Yeah, Reuniclus doesn’t appreciate Scizor being as defining as ever but it can still hit it hard with a Z-Move should it decide to set up or go for Pursuit. Overall I feel that it outclasses the rest of B- and deserves to be among Mega Houndoom and Volcanion, not Bronzong and Mega Pidgeot.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-845049150 energy ball reuni
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-845669867 OTR reuni
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-831120648 toxic reuni

 

[SacredLatias]

View attachment 157108
Reuniclus B- --> B

Reuniclus is one my favorite pokemon and I believe it sets itself apart from the other pokemon in B-. First, I’d like to note that while versatility isn’t a sole reason for something being viable it’s definitely helpful. On mobile while writing this so I’ll be editing in replays and stuff later, but just the CM set has a multitude of options. And all of them are viable and function well with he proper team support. Really hate stall? Go for Energy ball. Want to screw over common checks like Krookodile and Zeraora? Z-Toxic has you covered with that defense boost. Feeling shaky against Latias and Celebi? Z-Signal Beam works well. Can’t decide? Focus Blast is still reliable as ever. The OTR Set can’t break stall, but is super cool against Offense and can be a surprisingly effective cleaner— especially with (Scarf) Hydreigon and M-Shark being common on HO. Yeah, Reuniclus doesn’t appreciate Scizor being as defining as ever but it can still hit it hard with a Z-Move should it decide to set up or go for Pursuit. Overall I feel that it outclasses the rest of B- and deserves to be among Mega Houndoom and Volcanion, not Bronzong and Mega Pidgeot. Sorry for rambling bc Mobile— will adjust later

I agree, and would like to mention the double dance set as well. With acid armor and calm mind, you can boost your bulk to stupid levels and proceed to sweep teams, Though you do have to out some coverage to make it work.

Set

Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Acid Armor
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball

 

[Dumb Sir]

From B+ to A- rank: Disagree (Kinda)
First time voicing my opinion on viabilities, but there is always a first time for everything.

Gligar has a ton of niches, taking up roles as a stall breaker with taunt, hazard setter and remover, and electric and ground immunity. All of these traits in a vacuum sound like the makings of a mon that would at least break into the A tier, but I have to disagree. Sure, Gligar has better than respectable bulk and a fantastic movepool, but many mons, especially the potent wallbreakers that carry ice type moves in the tier like Latias, Primarina, and Mamoswine destroy it. Also, Gligar kind of struggles with 4 moveslot syndrome, being that it can't bring all of Stealth Rocks, Roost, Taunt, Toxic, Earthquake, and Knock Off to do everything at once. I do think Gligar has the strengths to be a part of the UU tier, and a great part at that, but common mons in the meta are just a little to much for it.

 

[Darksafadao]

Hi, I wanna give my thoughts on some Pokémon and their ranking.

A- -> B+ I don't really feel like in this meta Kyurem should have the same ranking as Celebi and Rotom-H. The recent trends really make me feel like it needs a lot of support and usually makes me think twice before trying it out, such as the Fighting spam, the Primarina spam that walls it and gives free turns to one of the best breakers in the tier (and that makes it have direct competition from Hydra in the sense of if I want a special Dragon breaker that gets walled by Prima and is weak to Fighting I may as well use the most versatile, faster, not weak to Rocks, and with access to moves such as Defog one, but of course Kyurem has some traits going for it like checking Togekiss, but still a relevant competition), being checked by really many of the tiers best Pokémon, such as Scizor, Aero, Terrakion, Latias, Hydreigon, and Primarina, and being Stealth Rock weak is never helpful. With such, I believe Kyurem should drop.

B -> B- Pretty much the same reasoning, as the meta trends aforementioned also affect Houndoom rather hard, but one in specific making it very awkward to use: Terrakion. Giving Terrakion free turns in this meta is rather dangerous and that already makes Houndoom already claim for some good specific support. The rise of Primarina is also worth mentioning as it means you either run Sludge Bomb to deal with it or you have not only to deal with Terrakion, one of the tier's most fearsome breakers, but also Primarina, that is also a very good breaker, while in the other hand forgoing Taunt is also annoying. Not only that, Hydreigon and Fighting-spam are everywhere making it even clunkier to me. It still has good traits of being somewhat fast, interesting STAB combo and checking Latias, Bisharp, and Scizor, but I think B- would represent its place in the meta better.

B -> B- Staka has been suffering since Mega Slowbro dropped and even more that it and its regular form are now very popular. Chesnaught getting more popular and Fighting-spam in general are very annoying for it too, with Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch being specially annoying stopping it from potential TR sweeps. In general, I think the meta just adapted very well to it since it dropped forever ago, and I do believe it has a cool niche but I don't think it's really worthy of B.

Those are my current thoughts, thanks

 

[Freeroamer]

I dont really want to do a pros and cons post but I just want to say that while I don’t necessarily disagree with some of the points that people are making against Gligar rising, I think there needs to be changes to the VR to more accurately reflect where it’s currently at. When I look at the VR and see Hippowdon, Nihilego and Tentacruel all in A- and Gligar in B+ I don’t think that’s really representative of the metagame we’ve now had for a while. It directly competes with Hippowdon for the bulky ground slot on a team (and often gets the pick if early SPL usage is anything to go by, as well as what I’ve seen from other tours and my own experiences building). Obviously they have some practical differences, Gligar usually prefers to Defog as opposed to setting up SR although it can do either, there’s also small differences in what they check and the utility moves they can carry. I think there’s a ton more teams that Gligar fits on as opposed to the two aforementioned Poison types, making it more “splashable” which I find to be a really big part of what make up VR placement. I think if this ranking is to be representative of our current metagame these guys need to at least be in the same rank, I’d personally have Gligar above Nihilego at least if not the other two aswell but yeah, at least raise it to A- so it’s not below them.

 

[SacredLatias]

Hi, I wanna give my thoughts on some Pokémon and their ranking.

A- -> B+ I don't really feel like in this meta Kyurem should have the same ranking as Celebi and Rotom-H. The recent trends really make me feel like it needs a lot of support and usually makes me think twice before trying it out, such as the Fighting spam, the Primarina spam that walls it and gives free turns to one of the best breakers in the tier (and that makes it have direct competition from Hydra in the sense of if I want a special Dragon breaker that gets walled by Prima and is weak to Fighting I may as well use the most versatile, faster, not weak to Rocks, and with access to moves such as Defog one, but of course Kyurem has some traits going for it like checking Togekiss, but still a relevant competition), being checked by really many of the tiers best Pokémon, such as Scizor, Aero, Terrakion, Latias, Hydreigon, and Primarina, and being Stealth Rock weak is never helpful. With such, I believe Kyurem should drop.

B -> B- Pretty much the same reasoning, as the meta trends aforementioned also affect Houndoom rather hard, but one in specific making it very awkward to use: Terrakion. Giving Terrakion free turns in this meta is rather dangerous and that already makes Houndoom already claim for some good specific support. The rise of Primarina is also worth mentioning as it means you either run Sludge Bomb to deal with it or you have not only to deal with Terrakion, one of the tier's most fearsome breakers, but also Primarina, that is also a very good breaker, while in the other hand forgoing Taunt is also annoying. Not only that, Hydreigon and Fighting-spam are everywhere making it even clunkier to me. It still has good traits of being somewhat fast, interesting STAB combo and checking Latias, Bisharp, and Scizor, but I think B- would represent its place in the meta better.

B -> B- Staka has been suffering since Mega Slowbro dropped and even more that it and its regular form are now very popular. Chesnaught getting more popular and Fighting-spam in general are very annoying for it too, with Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch being specially annoying stopping it from potential TR sweeps. In general, I think the meta just adapted very well to it since it dropped forever ago, and I do believe it has a cool niche but I don't think it's really worthy of B.

Those are my current thoughts, thanks

While I do agree with most points, there is one thing I want to hit on here.

Kyurem A- -> B+: No

Kyurem has a valuable place amongst teams as a pp-staller and stallbreaker, and a damn amazing one at that. With astounding hp and decent defenses, it can set 101 hp substitutes with little investment, and has great offenses being able to attack viably from both sides of the spectrum, with great coverage to boot. This mon absolutely shouldnt drop, as it is absolutely amazing at its wide and valuable niche.

 

[pkfire.exe]

Mamoswine: A to A-: 51/49
mamoswine has always been a great pokemon, but the uu meta isn't really kind to it atm. its speed is the definition of mediocre for a wallbreaker, and there are so many other wallbreakers who can do it job on a similar vein, ESPECIALLY terrakion, who can outspeed many more threats mamo can't. its average bulk doesnt complement its low speed either, so against offensive teams this mon is lacking, kind of like primarina. on the bright side, it's really hard to switch into, so I have mixed feelings on it
Rotom-H: A- to A: disagree
it's a good defensive fire type, but a rather mediocre defogger. main reason for it is its' weakness to stealth rock, meaning it's going to get chipped a lot throughout the course of a match by the same thing it wants to get rid of, also getting worn by attacks in general due to it not having reliable recovery. it CAN beat both sd scizors. but what about getting knocked off or taking a banded superpower from one? really good gluemon no doubt, but it just tends to get overwhelmed by the same mons its meant to beat
Gligar: B+ to A- agree
this thing is basically hippowdon 2.0, with a LOT better utility and more bulk, and hippowdon was already a great mon. its' ability to straight up beat top tier threats like scizor, terrakion, cobalion, krookodile, mega aero, list goes on, is absolutely invaluable.
Chesnaught: B to B-: 51/49
tbh, idk about this one. it CAN beat bisharp and cobalion, which is a huge boon, but look at whats running around uu and you'll see why chesnaught just isn't as good as it once was. it has trouble switching the vast amount of special attackers in the tier because they all just hit it way too hard. its a good defensive spiker, a unique role, but idk if that's a good enough
Crawdaunt: B+ to B: agree
crawdaunts in a rough spot in the meta, its too slow and too frail to have any use and requires too much support to effectively wallbreak. its supposed to take a hit and then hit harder, but primarina ultimately does that better. theres also the new addition of bisharp, which has more worth using. it's like mamoswine in some regards. good on paper, not so good in practice, but hard to switch into nonetheless.
Gengar: B to B+: agree
gengar's a diamond in the rough. it's now really good in the tier, yet super underrated. alolan muk virtually disappearing is a huge boon to gengar since it doesn't need to fear of dying as soon as muk came in. any other pursuit trapper who wants to come in wont be able to take it out due to substitute mindgames and potentially get dominated to z focus blast
Chandelure: B to B-: agree
chandelure doesn't really have a place in the meta anymore because gengar does its role so much better. the speed it has is a much better reason to use it compared to chandelure's mediocre speed.
Swampert and Mega Pidgeot to C+: disagree
while they aren't worth using anymore due to better options (gligar and hippowdon and moltres, respectively) I don't think they deserve to fall lower than CROBAT, of all things. nothing else to say

 

[tmacbalanced]

What are you on right now

Get sober and come on back.

“Oh it’s got bulk and it can sweep shit might as well warrant a rise!”

I had no idea these were good points to make when debating someone. I get it, my thoughts are unpopular. I get it, people want to disagree. That's fine. But, I appreciate it if people actually put up points. If people did not just say what a mon does on a shallow level like saying what moves it has or its stats & leaving it at that. Instead actually talk about its worth & debate the points that were made. I am not in it for the likes, agreements, or anything like that. I'm only here to discuss points. If you prove me wrong, I don't mind. You agree with me, fine. Just try to be civil about it.

"S Rank will be the top of the top, incredibly dominant Pokemon who don’t really have any equal."
Hydreigon does not fit under this category. Its moreover a great anti-meta mon. Its not dominant at such a high degree due to the facts that it simply always has to keep up with the meta and adapt. The meta is never adapting to it.
Hydreigon runs scarf to keep up with fighting spam, fast threats (Mega Mane, Zeraoara, Mega Beedrill, Mega Aerodactyl, & Mega Sharpedo), and Latias (S rank threat).
Hydreigon runs a myriad of sets in order to not get walled so easily. Choice Specs, Flash Cannon + Life Orb, Z-Belch, Super Power + Life Orb, and Steelium Z + Flash Cannon + Super Power. It runs them for Blissey, Popular Defensive Fairy Cores, and Steel Types (Fire Blast on almost every set due to the massive amount of Steel Types).
Now, Blissey is not run solely for Hydreigon, its ran for special attackers period. Same goes fairies & steels (for other respective reasons). So no, Hydreigon is not centralizing them around itself.
If it runs specs, it sacrifices speed and has a bit of 4MSS in what it wants to run (Fire Blast or Flash Cannon). Z-Belch is similar but it also sacrifices power and puts itself in 50/50s since you can only use the move once. Life Orb sets (including Steelium Z) only have one drawback in speed but, it still means a lot considering how fast this meta is & how many popular mons have priority.
If it runs Scarf, it loses to fairies and can be choice locked into the wrong move a lot due to the heavy amount of mons that either resist or straight up immune to its STABs respectively. Normally forcing to go for U-Turns. Scarf is easily the best set as the item allows Hydreigon to stand a better chance against the high speed tier meta. Being able to out speed Terrakion, Latias, Mega Beedrill, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Aerodactyl, Zeraoara, Mega Sceptile, Cobalion, Celebi, Azelf, Moltres, and Tornadus. All of which can KO it. That's a long list.
All of this proves it is not dominant to such a high ranking degree. Now for the equal part.
Z-Sets - Latias does this better due to better bulk/typing, better speed tier, and being able to simply run psyshock for Blissey. Dragonium Z, Psychium Z, and Electrium Z are all terrifying sets that make Latias a threat in it's own right. At the same time, Latias can still use Draco Meteor, Psyshock, and Thunder/Thunderbolt before or after using the z crystal. Scizor is another mon that is better at using z moves with Fightinium Z + Super Power. Terrakion is the best at using z moves to be honest.
+4 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 411-484 (123 - 144.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Gligar is not a counter as EQ 2HKOs. So, if you switch-in, that's one SD. You EQ, that's another SD. BOOM. Gone.)
Life Orb Sets - Scizor is much better at this due to priority BP, allowing it to handle faster threats. Same goes Mamoswine & Bisharp.
Choice Scarf - Latias, Infernape, and Terrakion are better. Latias can tank hits better while still firing off high power moves and out speeding almost all mons. Infernape has a stronger U-Turn and can run gunk shot for fairies while being to deal good damage against much of the meta with it's strong STAB moves. Terrakion has better STABs, more power, and higher speed.
Jack of all trades - Mega Altaria is better. It can go special or physical. Better at roosting due to typing. It can run DD for sweeping. Better defogger due to typing. It's also harder to predict due to it's amazing movepool, bulk, power, and being able to go physical or special. And can fit on any playstyle. Hydreigon has trouble fitting on stall. The only thing Hydreigon has over Mega Altaria is being able to run choice scarf to fix speed issues. At the same time, if you decide to switch-up sets with Mega Altaria you don't really have to worry about taking away anything. Mega Altaria always does big damage due to pixilate. It always has bulk due to its amazing typing and stats. You're never really sacrificing that much unlike with Hydreigon.
There ya go. Hydreigon is the best at nothing.
It's hard to fit on teams due to it's many weaknesses defensively: Fairy, Dragon, Fighting, Bug, and Ice. So, you have to run a Primarina, Scizor, Latias, Infernape, Terrakion, and Mamoswine switch-in(s).

Mind you, I made the S rank noms for Primarina and Mega Altaria as they don't have these same issues. Primarina is the best choice specs user, easy to fit on teams (due to bulk, typing, and power), and it's tough running a defensive Primarina check on teams though you should always carry one. Mega Altaria is the best at being Jack-of-all trades, many mons runs moves just for it, easy to fit on teams (due to customization in stats + moveslots, bulk, power, and typing). Almost forgot Terrakion. I could see disagreements on this due to its typing not being good with defensive synergy. But, it is the best physical attacker in the tier (see the calc above with gligar).

I don't mind if people want to argue these points but, try to be civil. These points are valid. Try to respect the work I put in this post, as well as the other posts I made. Thank you for hearing me out.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

I had no idea these were good points to make when debating someone. I get it, my thoughts are unpopular. I get it, people want to disagree. That's fine. But, I appreciate it if people actually put up points. If people did not just say what a mon does on a shallow level like saying what moves it has or its stats & leaving it at that. Instead actually talk about its worth & debate the points that were made. I am not in it for the likes, agreements, or anything like that. I'm only here to discuss points. If you prove me wrong, I don't mind. You agree with me, fine. Just try to be civil about it.

"S Rank will be the top of the top, incredibly dominant Pokemon who don’t really have any equal."
Hydreigon does not fit under this category. Its moreover a great anti-meta mon. Its not dominant at such a high degree due to the facts that it simply always has to keep up with the meta and adapt. The meta is never adapting to it.
Hydreigon runs scarf to keep up with fighting spam, fast threats (Mega Mane, Zeraoara, Mega Beedrill, Mega Aerodactyl, & Mega Sharpedo), and Latias (S rank threat).
Hydreigon runs a myriad of sets in order to not get walled so easily. Choice Specs, Flash Cannon + Life Orb, Z-Belch, Super Power + Life Orb, and Steelium Z + Flash Cannon + Super Power. It runs them for Blissey, Popular Defensive Fairy Cores, and Steel Types (Fire Blast on almost every set due to the massive amount of Steel Types).
Now, Blissey is not run solely for Hydreigon, its ran for special attackers period. Same goes fairies & steels (for other respective reasons). So no, Hydreigon is not centralizing them around itself.
If it runs specs, it sacrifices speed and has a bit of 4MSS in what it wants to run (Fire Blast or Flash Cannon). Z-Belch is similar but it also sacrifices power and puts itself in 50/50s since you can only use the move once. Life Orb sets (including Steelium Z) only have one drawback in speed but, it still means a lot considering how fast this meta is & how many popular mons have priority.
If it runs Scarf, it loses to fairies and can be choice locked into the wrong move a lot due to the heavy amount of mons that either resist or straight up immune to its STABs respectively. Normally forcing to go for U-Turns. Scarf is easily the best set as the item allows Hydreigon to stand a better chance against the high speed tier meta. Being able to out speed Terrakion, Latias, Mega Beedrill, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Aerodactyl, Zeraoara, Mega Sceptile, Cobalion, Celebi, Azelf, Moltres, and Tornadus. All of which can KO it. That's a long list.
All of this proves it is not dominant to such a high ranking degree. Now for the equal part.
Z-Sets - Latias does this better due to better bulk/typing, better speed tier, and being able to simply run psyshock for Blissey. Dragonium Z, Psychium Z, and Electrium Z are all terrifying sets that make Latias a threat in it's own right. At the same time, Latias can still use Draco Meteor, Psyshock, and Thunder/Thunderbolt before or after using the z crystal. Scizor is another mon that is better at using z moves with Fightinium Z + Super Power. Terrakion is the best at using z moves to be honest.
+4 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 411-484 (123 - 144.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Gligar is not a counter as EQ 2HKOs. So, if you switch-in, that's one SD. You EQ, that's another SD. BOOM. Gone.)
Life Orb Sets - Scizor is much better at this due to priority BP, allowing it to handle faster threats. Same goes Mamoswine & Bisharp.
Choice Scarf - Latias, Infernape, and Terrakion are better. Latias can tank hits better while still firing off high power moves and out speeding almost all mons. Infernape has a stronger U-Turn and can run gunk shot for fairies while being to deal good damage against much of the meta with it's strong STAB moves. Terrakion has better STABs, more power, and higher speed.
Jack of all trades - Mega Altaria is better. It can go special or physical. Better at roosting due to typing. It can run DD for sweeping. Better defogger due to typing. It's also harder to predict due to it's amazing movepool, bulk, power, and being able to go physical or special. And can fit on any playstyle. Hydreigon has trouble fitting on stall. The only thing Hydreigon has over Mega Altaria is being able to run choice scarf to fix speed issues. At the same time, if you decide to switch-up sets with Mega Altaria you don't really have to worry about taking away anything. Mega Altaria always does big damage due to pixilate. It always has bulk due to its amazing typing and stats. You're never really sacrificing that much unlike with Hydreigon.
There ya go. Hydreigon is the best at nothing.
It's hard to fit on teams due to it's many weaknesses defensively: Fairy, Dragon, Fighting, Bug, and Ice. So, you have to run a Primarina, Scizor, Latias, Infernape, Terrakion, and Mamoswine switch-in(s).

Mind you, I made the S rank noms for Primarina and Mega Altaria as they don't have these same issues. Primarina is the best choice specs user, easy to fit on teams (due to bulk, typing, and power), and it's tough running a defensive Primarina check on teams though you should always carry one. Mega Altaria is the best at being Jack-of-all trades, many mons runs moves just for it, easy to fit on teams (due to customization in stats + moveslots, bulk, power, and typing). Almost forgot Terrakion. I could see disagreements on this due to its typing not being good with defensive synergy. But, it is the best physical attacker in the tier (see the calc above with gligar).

I don't mind if people want to argue these points but, try to be civil. These points are valid. Try to respect the work I put in this post, as well as the other posts I made. Thank you for hearing me out.

Every S-rank has the problem of one of it's sets getting walled by something, you can make the same argument that something like Latias or Scizor suffers just as much from switching a set. The bulkier SD sets fail to KO major threats like Aero and Terrakion with minimal chip. The Latias boltbeam set fails to dent Blissey, Quick Attack Scizor trades matchups like BP weak mons (Or Doublade in the case of dropping knock for it) in favor of stomping the BP resists like Moltres, Manectric, and Rotom-H. The point of a separate set is that it changes the pokemon's niche and what matchups it can handle. Hydreigon is incredibly versatile in this regard. Sure, it can't hit everything on every set, but neither can Latias, neither can Scizor. But Hydreigon can run just as many if not more sets than both of the above. This makes Hydreigon incredibly easy to slot onto ANY team. And that is the very definition of how we decide viability rankings. Viability rankings by definition are usually how easy it is to slot a pokemon into a team, and by this definition, Hydreigon is the king. You can literally tack it on the end of any team and the team isn't any worse for it. Its not something you have to build around, you can just look at your other 5 mons and decide what exact set your Hydreigon needs, and if that's not S-rank worthy then I don't know what is. Hydreigon has proven it's insane versatility by being the one mon to be consistently slotted on every single playstyle, even more than the other S-ranks. You're always going to see a Hydreigon almost every game because there's something a Hydreigon can bring to EVERY team. You couldn't make this argument for something like Terrakion, which while argued as the effective breaker, lacks the defensive utility of a true S-rank and thus usually has to be built around, instead of slotting on to any team. The thing about using Hydreigon is that it's extremely easy to fit anywhere and customize, more so than just about any mon in the tier. You list weaknesses of individual sets, but this doesn't factor that if you're facing a team with this particular Hydreigon set, then that probably means the team itself has the other bases covered. What makes Hydreigon so scary is that it can do what it wants. Teams with a non-scarf Hydra typically have 2-3 ways of circumventing all those faster mons that can threaten it. Teams with a Scarf Hydra usually have means of punishing a brazzy fairy coming in hot on it, teams with an odd Z-Hydra usually cover what Hydreigon can't beat or benefit immensely, borderline autowinning if Hydra lures what it's supposed to lure. Hydreigon can't beat every mon in one set, but the fact that it can CHOOSE what mons it beats is what makes it the top of the crop. Hydreigon arguably has the most ability to pick it's matchups than any other mon in current UU. As it's overall movepool tends to look larger than even the other S-ranks. On paper, you can say Hydreigon loses to X-Y-Z, but Pokemon is a 6 on 6 game, and the fact Hydregion can change into any outfit to support the other 5 mons on the squad is why it is where it is.

 

[Moutemoute]

Hydreigon has trouble fitting on stall

I will not repeat what Smallsmallrose has already said but I just would like to highlight the fact that Hydreigon doesn't have any trouble fitting on Stall. Defog Hydreigon is a thing and it's a Pokemon which can be used in Stall without a problem. It's ability Levitate allows it to not be pressured by Spikes and Toxic Spikes unlike Altaria-Mega. Also, it brings to the team a pretty clean answer to Crawdaunt which is really annoying for Stall. Of course Altaria-Mega can also check Crawdaunt but it takes a Mega-Evolution slot on your team which means you can't opt for Steelix-Mega or Aggron-Mega.

Hydreigon is definitively one of the most amazing Pokemon in Underused and one of the reason fairies are that much popular in the tier. It's super versatile and can be played in every single archetype : Hyper Offense, Offense, Bulky Offense, Balanced, Semi-Stall and Stall. In each of these archetype there is at least one set of Hydreigon which can shine and bring utility to the team. The fact that it has so many sets isn't a problem and it just shows how incredible and versatile this Pokemon is. Hydreigon deserves it's spot in S rank, it shouldn't drop at all.

 

[SacredLatias]

I had no idea these were good points to make when debating someone. I get it, my thoughts are unpopular. I get it, people want to disagree. That's fine. But, I appreciate it if people actually put up points. If people did not just say what a mon does on a shallow level like saying what moves it has or its stats & leaving it at that. Instead actually talk about its worth & debate the points that were made. I am not in it for the likes, agreements, or anything like that. I'm only here to discuss points. If you prove me wrong, I don't mind. You agree with me, fine. Just try to be civil about it.

"S Rank will be the top of the top, incredibly dominant Pokemon who don’t really have any equal."
Hydreigon does not fit under this category. Its moreover a great anti-meta mon. Its not dominant at such a high degree due to the facts that it simply always has to keep up with the meta and adapt. The meta is never adapting to it.
Hydreigon runs scarf to keep up with fighting spam, fast threats (Mega Mane, Zeraoara, Mega Beedrill, Mega Aerodactyl, & Mega Sharpedo), and Latias (S rank threat).
Hydreigon runs a myriad of sets in order to not get walled so easily. Choice Specs, Flash Cannon + Life Orb, Z-Belch, Super Power + Life Orb, and Steelium Z + Flash Cannon + Super Power. It runs them for Blissey, Popular Defensive Fairy Cores, and Steel Types (Fire Blast on almost every set due to the massive amount of Steel Types).
Now, Blissey is not run solely for Hydreigon, its ran for special attackers period. Same goes fairies & steels (for other respective reasons). So no, Hydreigon is not centralizing them around itself.
If it runs specs, it sacrifices speed and has a bit of 4MSS in what it wants to run (Fire Blast or Flash Cannon). Z-Belch is similar but it also sacrifices power and puts itself in 50/50s since you can only use the move once. Life Orb sets (including Steelium Z) only have one drawback in speed but, it still means a lot considering how fast this meta is & how many popular mons have priority.
If it runs Scarf, it loses to fairies and can be choice locked into the wrong move a lot due to the heavy amount of mons that either resist or straight up immune to its STABs respectively. Normally forcing to go for U-Turns. Scarf is easily the best set as the item allows Hydreigon to stand a better chance against the high speed tier meta. Being able to out speed Terrakion, Latias, Mega Beedrill, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Aerodactyl, Zeraoara, Mega Sceptile, Cobalion, Celebi, Azelf, Moltres, and Tornadus. All of which can KO it. That's a long list.
All of this proves it is not dominant to such a high ranking degree. Now for the equal part.
Z-Sets - Latias does this better due to better bulk/typing, better speed tier, and being able to simply run psyshock for Blissey. Dragonium Z, Psychium Z, and Electrium Z are all terrifying sets that make Latias a threat in it's own right. At the same time, Latias can still use Draco Meteor, Psyshock, and Thunder/Thunderbolt before or after using the z crystal. Scizor is another mon that is better at using z moves with Fightinium Z + Super Power. Terrakion is the best at using z moves to be honest.
+4 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 411-484 (123 - 144.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Gligar is not a counter as EQ 2HKOs. So, if you switch-in, that's one SD. You EQ, that's another SD. BOOM. Gone.)
Life Orb Sets - Scizor is much better at this due to priority BP, allowing it to handle faster threats. Same goes Mamoswine & Bisharp.
Choice Scarf - Latias, Infernape, and Terrakion are better. Latias can tank hits better while still firing off high power moves and out speeding almost all mons. Infernape has a stronger U-Turn and can run gunk shot for fairies while being to deal good damage against much of the meta with it's strong STAB moves. Terrakion has better STABs, more power, and higher speed.
Jack of all trades - Mega Altaria is better. It can go special or physical. Better at roosting due to typing. It can run DD for sweeping. Better defogger due to typing. It's also harder to predict due to it's amazing movepool, bulk, power, and being able to go physical or special. And can fit on any playstyle. Hydreigon has trouble fitting on stall. The only thing Hydreigon has over Mega Altaria is being able to run choice scarf to fix speed issues. At the same time, if you decide to switch-up sets with Mega Altaria you don't really have to worry about taking away anything. Mega Altaria always does big damage due to pixilate. It always has bulk due to its amazing typing and stats. You're never really sacrificing that much unlike with Hydreigon.
There ya go. Hydreigon is the best at nothing.
It's hard to fit on teams due to it's many weaknesses defensively: Fairy, Dragon, Fighting, Bug, and Ice. So, you have to run a Primarina, Scizor, Latias, Infernape, Terrakion, and Mamoswine switch-in(s).

Mind you, I made the S rank noms for Primarina and Mega Altaria as they don't have these same issues. Primarina is the best choice specs user, easy to fit on teams (due to bulk, typing, and power), and it's tough running a defensive Primarina check on teams though you should always carry one. Mega Altaria is the best at being Jack-of-all trades, many mons runs moves just for it, easy to fit on teams (due to customization in stats + moveslots, bulk, power, and typing). Almost forgot Terrakion. I could see disagreements on this due to its typing not being good with defensive synergy. But, it is the best physical attacker in the tier (see the calc above with gligar).

I don't mind if people want to argue these points but, try to be civil. These points are valid. Try to respect the work I put in this post, as well as the other posts I made. Thank you for hearing me out.

First off, dont act like those were the only points we brought up. Thats slimey and missleading. Second off, you yourself quoted the definition of a s tier threat, "S Rank will be the top of the top, incredibly dominant Pokemon who don’t really have any equal." How does prima equal top tier? Simple answer is, it isnt. Walled by amoonguss if no psychic, walled by bliss if no torrent, and beaten by most physical attackers worth mentioning. Not to mention, it brings nothing to teams but a beatstick just denting things in an attempt to revenge kill (sorry i didn't bring this up at first). You also mentioned M Alt for s, saying your reason was that it was a jack of all trades. Remind you of a certain s tier dragon type, that you want a+? So whats special about malt, that warrents it the position of s, even though it loses to much more in the meta game than hydrei, such as sciz, coba, togekiss, etc. Its a great mon, but it isnt s tier because it doesnt have as much utility, and loses more important matchups.

 

[Kink]

"S Rank will be the top of the top, incredibly dominant Pokemon who don’t really have any equal."

If you don't think that's Hydreigon, you're likely playing the wrong tier.

Hope everyone has a good day. Find a way to be nice or feel the wrath of my delete skills.

Keep it civil you nerds.

 

[SacredLatias]

Its time to give my take on some more mons, and I want to give mega pokemon the main spotlight in this VR.

Mega Altaria A->A+: Agree

M alt is a versatile mon in the meta being able to sweep or play support with its great stats, typing, and movepool. Its able to threaten many defensive cores with its d-dance refresh set, beat non z steels with its bulky special set. The pain in m-alts side is its huge weakness to hazards. When it isnt mega evolved, it takes a whopping 25% from stealth rocks, and takes spikes and toxic spike when it is. With the many mons that learn defog and rapid spin in the tier, removal isnt as big an issue as before. Again, a very good pokemon personally deserving of A+.

Mega Steelix B->B+: Agree

Mega Steelix, much like it counterpart mAggron, boasts the role of bulky rocker. With an absolutely titanic defense stat of 230, an alright hp of 75, and a respectable 95 special defense, Megalix trades some power for bulk over mAggron, and a less useful ability. However, its ground typing gives it a nice niche as a counter to electrium Latias.

Doublade B+->A-: Agree

Doublade is undeniably good in underused right now, being bulky and powerful, with swords dance, priority, and a wide variety of coverage moves, along with being one of the best Terrakion checks in the tier. It proves its usefulness again and again, and in my opinion completely deserves a spot in A-.

 

[Daiyaga]

Time for some half-baked post.

Swampert to C+ : Disagree

I'd have agreed with this drop some time ago, but Manectric-Mega going back to HP Ice rather than HP Grass to handle Gligar, the Zeraora hype dying down and Rotom-H's popularity are all good things going for defensive Swampert atm. It also still has a pretty good MU against common hazard removers (Empoleon, Rotom-H and Tentacruel lose the 1v1 while Gligar doesn't exactly want to risk a Scald burn) and physical attackers like Terrakion, Cobalion, Aerodactyl-Mega, Krookodile and Bisharp (also Scizor I guess, but SD + roost variant can win 1v1 against Roar-less Swampert, and CB U-turn does a ton). Also CB Swampert is a thing now apparently, though I never used it so I can't say anything about it.

Pidgeot-Mega to C+ : Disagree

I know Moltres is a thing, but it doesn't completely outclass Pidgeot, 100% accurate Hurricanes and a higher speed being the biggest advantages the mega bird has, as it means non-scarf Terrakion/Latias can't switch into Pidgeot and threaten it out (which is pretty big considering how popular these two are).

Gligar to A- : maybe?

I guess what makes me lean towards Agree on that one is Hippowdon's rank, as I feel like the differences between Gligar and Hippowdon aren't enough to justify one being lower than the other. So either Gligar rises, or Hippowdon drops.

Kyurem to B+ : yes

The meta isn't kind to it. Fightings are everywhere, faster dragons are everywhere, and as such Kyurem can struggle to find opportunities to come in. Also Primarina gained a lot of traction recently, and Kyurem doesn't do much to it (except, like, checking what move Primarina locks itself into ?).It's still a threatening mon, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's consistent enough to stay at A-.

Altaria-Mega to A+ : ye boi

The meta is kind to it with the amount of fighting-, dark- and dragon-types running rampant, its movepool lets it choose what it beats (DD+Refresh can easily clean a lot of games once phazers/bulky Steels- and poison- types are down, DD+EQ gets rid of said Steel- and Poison-types, 3Atks Roost trades the wincon part for better coverage, defensive brings a ton of utility thanks to Defog/Heal bell) and its excellent all-around stats lets you easily tailor it to fit your team however you need it to (best example being the DD+Refresh set for which you can find like 10 different spreads that all achieve different goals, such as outspeeding certain 'mons with 0/1 boost, tanking specific hits, getting the OHKO/2HKO on specific 'mons). Great 'mon, arguably the best fairy in the tier, rise that thing already.

Getting tired of writing (or I have nothing to add to these noms) so I'll keep it short for the last ones
Doublade rising : agree
Empoleon dropping : agree
Primarina rising : disagree
Gengar rising : agree
Gastrodon to C : agree
Suicune rising : disagree
Hydreigon to A+ : wat
Infernape rising : agree
Rotom-Heat rising : disagree
Chesnaught dropping : agree
Crobat dropping : agree
Mamoswine dropping : agree
Reuniclus rising : agree
Houndoom-Mega dropping : agree
Crawdaunt dropping : agree

 

[Estarossa]

First time posting in here, sorry if i muck anything up, and im sure i'm going to be plentifully controversial haha, felt kinda long so i put things within spoilers. (Dno why but some spoilers seem to be splitting and won't let me merge awks)

Mega-Altaria

Altaria-Mega A -> A+ Agree , (A -> S Sorta Agree)

An amazing versatility of sets running for it. Can run dd-refresh (with multiple different spreads in order to survive certain hits or do cerrtain levels of damage) to stall break and sweep easily, can run dd-eq to better deal with steel/poison types, can run cotton guard in order to deal with the steels that think they can counter the previous two, can run even run facade in order to blag a non-refresh set by using eq and then proceeding to gain a massive power boost. Can also run powerful defensive sets, either physical or special depending on what it wants to counter.

In terms of sheer set versatility it is up there with the S mons, and with counters to certain offensive sets being set up on by others, it is incredibly dangerous. The weakness to scizor does let it down, but certain sets can circumvent this, and this is honetly the main reason I feel it should only go up to A+ not S.

----------------------

Gligar

Gligar B+ -> A-

Gligar

Agree

This thing absolutely deserves to be ranked in the same tier as Hippo. An immunity to ground and electric, combined with eviolite boosted stats serves it to be a fantastic defensive mon. Defog and a slow u-turn only help to boost it's viability in the defensive core of a team, helping it remove entry hazards and maintain momentum. I feel that it doesn't deserve to rank above hippo however, as sand stream and whirlwind are both powerful defensive tools, especially when your team has rock types such as m-aero or nihilego to benefit from the sandstorm, and hippo doesn't have the 4x weakness to ice or have to care so much about knock off which absoluutely cripples gligar.

---------------------------

Gengar

Gengar B -> B+ Agree

Substitute sets are absolutely amazing on this thing, and whenever one is brought in vs me now i am terrrified to swap incase of giving it a free substitute. The way susbtitute helps to prevent being pursuit trapped is amazing, and it is also great to bring extra mindgames vs a bisharp who would otherwise want to suckerpunch. It is however let down by the lack of recovery, forcing it to only be able to substitute a few times a game, especially when entry hazards / sandstorm are up, and has to trade the power/speed of a choice specs/scarf in order to have sub, and is still easily pursuit trapped vs a m-aero, so I would therefore only put it to b+ for now.

---------------------------

Rotom-Heat

Rotom-H B+ -> A- Agree

While undoubtably a fantastic pokemon, the lack of recovery outside of pain split severely limits this mon's ability to check certain mons such as moltres and scizor, and serve as a defogger, essentially forcing it to need back-up in these roles. While it does learn pain split, it often finds little room for it on it's sets, unless another mon such as gligar is running defog on the same team, as toxic generally finds more use. The use of iapapa berry also serves to make it scared of opossing knock offs. It also no longer really serves as a celebi answer, as it cant counter the ever-more-popular psychium-z sets.

----------------------------

Gastrodon

Gastrodon -> B-

Gastrodon

Would nominate this one to be put to B- for now, same tier asswampert. In my eyes it is a far better defensive water-ground type than swampert, carrying an extra water immunity, and being able to use recover and trapping moves such as infestation. However, while its special bulk is better (when taking into account more hp and recover), it is worse off in physical bulk and can't use stealth rocks like swampert can, so putting this into the same tier as swampert for now seems appropriate. On the offensive side it can't really run as powerful of sets as cb swampert as well, but toxic trapping sets are a cool niche that swampert can't run.

------------------------------

Crawdaunt

Crawdaunt B+ -> B

Crawdaunt

Disagree

Absolutely have to disagree with this one, although from what i can see it does seem to be a bit of a done deal at this point. With chesnaught dropping in popularity again, the pokemon who can reliably wall crawdaunt is again returning to just m-altaria really. It is testament to its power imo that it can 2hko most pokemon that resist it with its banded set, leaving it very little defensive counterplay aside from the few pokemon that hard counter it. A powerful aqua jet further enhances it's usefulness, ohkoing threats such as m-aero, non vacuum-wave infernape, terrakion etc. I have seen mention of hydreigon walling it in thread, however superpower is still a fairly common move on banded sets, and non z sets really don't wanna take knock off, and choice sets can't roost off the damage so can't consistently swap in on it. In my opinion, it's speed tier isnt the biggest issue in the world either, while it may struggle with offensive threats, a lot of the time it's aqua jet can do large damage to them, and it outspeeds most defensive threats meaning they need to be able to not be 2hko'd by it while attempting to swap in.

------------------------------

Infernape

Infernape

Infernape

A- -> A Agree

The rising popularity of nasty plot sets is for good reason, with it carrying devasting power that absolutely threatens standard checks to it, even ohkoing moltres lol. It is however unfortunately held back from having to choose 2 of focus blast / grass knot / vaccum wave, and often finding whichever one it left off is the one it needed, and being 4 point slower than latias. However the matchup it offers vs more defensive teams is completely stellar. The fact it can run a huge variety of sets is absolutely amazing, and as nasty plot becomes more common sets such as banded will just be more useful as people won't expect them.

------------------------------

Empoleon

Empoleon A+ -> A

Empoleon

Agree

While a great defensive pokemon, the lack of recovery outside of leftovers+protect and the general passivity let it down, often making it set up fodder, and with stuff such as electrium-z nihilego/latias etc the pokemon it's meant to wall can often find ways around it. Also suffers from horrible 4mss, but still a good pokemon, just need to be way more careful about pokemon running coverage moves to counter you.

---------------------------------

Moltres

Moltres A- -> A Agree

Honestly just making scizor scared to ever click moves is godlike in upon itself. With a speed tier outspeeding stuff like togekiss and nidoking, and insanely powerful attacks + a nuke in supersonic skystrike, moltres is an offensive threat to be feared, while also serving to threaten burns to any physical attackers. It can also run dangerous defensive spreads designed to blanket check physical attackers not running rock type moves, and pp sstalling defensive spreads, providing it some variety in what it can do. While move accuracy and a 4x weakness to stealth rocks is an issue, the prevalence of defog users helps to mitigate the rocks issue, and being a scizor counter like no other + having access to u-turn for momentum helps to make up for the accuracy issue.

-------------------------------------

Kommo-o

Kommo-o A -> A+

Kommo-o

Probably the best offensive rocker right now. The mixed set can totally destroy defensive/stall teams, and can be incredibly hard to switch into depending on your team. With it's amazing movepool, it can run coverage such as flamethrower for scizor, and z-poison jab for fairies like primarina, or just life orb clanging close combat taunt rocks for raw power, totally letting it pick the mons that counter the set. Can also run powerful dragon dance sets, meaning that assuming a mixed set can be a very dangerous assumption. The sheer versatility in moveset and power of this mon is great, and with the rising popularity of pokemon such as steelix and gengar, bulletproof is a great ability. While it's speed tier isnt great, its bulk is more than enough that it can stomach taking non supereffective hits, but it is probably one of its main issues.

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Doublade

Doublade B+ -> A- Agree

One of the few pokemon that walls sd terrakion while simulataneously being able to do threatening damage at the same time is reason enough in a way. Serving both a defensive presence and a dangerous offensive presence, doublade serves to counter various dangerous offensive threats such as m-alt,m-aero and terrakion while simulataneously being able to serve as a dangerorus set up sweeper. The main issues holding it back for me are the pathetic spdef that means it gets badly hurt even by ineffective moves, and the reliance on eviolite that means it cant take knock off even from weak pokemon that won't do much damage of it most of the time unless it's already primed to sweep with shadow sneak. Steel / ghost typing is also great allowing it to be immune to both toxic and seismic toss, giving it a great matchup vs stall.

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Crobat

Crobat B- -> C+ Agree

Too frail to really serve as a taunt user. Although it resists fighting moves, its frailty means a well predicted swap can be the end of it, as a lot of these pokemon have coverage that can hit it. It also has too weak of an offensive presence outside of z-brave bird, which isn't even that powerful either unless its supereffective, and easily baited. While it can defog and then taunt pokemon suuch as hippo that arre trying to get up rrocks, it can't actually rreally stop it either, as if it ever tries to roost it'll get ohkoed by earthquake. All in all while a fast pokemon capable of sponging ineffective moves and defogging an u-turning for momentum, it never really achieves much and has no real presence outside of being a minor nuuisance.

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Pointless stuff

I had feelings too on hydreigon, but it feels like it's already been talked about more then enough, so I just hope to come to understand how it deserves its rank eventually.

After playing a lot more with taunt hydreigon, I have grown to appreciate it honestly, and can see that specific set being worthy of its rank. But I do still feel like its the only decent set, being walled and used for free wish passing by fairies and blissey with any other set is just too much for me in a meta full of them.

 

[tmacbalanced]

Thank you both for being civil. I appreciate your posts and focusing on my points while trying to debunk them. It's all I wanted. But, I will retort. (I dunno how to tag, sorry)

I heavily disagree with the points smallsmallrose made about Scizor & Latias not being to keep up with what makes them good when switching sets.
Scizor - It remains to be powerful even when defensive. The fact that it can still KO mons after chip or hazards with just bullet punch is very good. The fact that is can still be an offensive threat period, is very good. As for the bulkier BP sets, it depends on the investments and items. Not only that, but Terrakion is very bulky while resisting stealth rocks.
+2 0 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 354-416 (109.5 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 372-438 (123.5 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So, it's also if Scizor can't get up an SD either. Mind you, Terrakion and Mega Aero don't outright KO (especially with the wrong coverage/set).
So, I guess Scizor is still better than Hydreigon. Onto Latias.
Latias - I've heard of boltbeam but, I find it to be a terrible set. Also rarely see it so, there's that. CM Z sets and Scarf sets on the other hand are everywhere. Scarf Latias still maintains a lot of power, and scarf allows it to better handle fast mons. Including Infernape, Terrakion, and Hydreigon when scarfed. It does have trouble handling fatter mons but, if it was good at it then it'd obviously would have been quickbanned a long time ago. But fact still remains that it still keeps power, speed, and bulk no matter what.

The point of a separate set is that it changes the pokemon's niche and what matchups it can handle.

Now, this would be true for lower ranked mons. But not for Mega Altaria, Terrakion, Latias, or Scizor. True, their match-ups are different. But not by much. They still maintain what makes them good while fitting on most teams and becoming difficult to check/counter, It's honestly why people complain about all 4.

Now, Hydreigon fitting on any team is false. Don't know where anyone got that idea from. Many times in chat I see Hydreigon teams (including my own) get put up only for someone to say, "you are weak to this, this, and this." They had good points too. Hydreigon has a lot of weaknesses defensively and offensively. For the community to ignore this really does make me wonder why. Now, I already went into it's weaknesses on both fronts in 3 posts. Not going to do it a fourth time.

You list weaknesses of individual sets, but this doesn't factor that if you're facing a team with this particular Hydreigon set, then that probably means the team itself has the other bases covered.

Teams with a non-scarf Hydra typically have 2-3 ways of circumventing all those faster mons that can threaten it.

Now, I do appreciate you going over this. The thing is though, it has too many weaknesses for a team to cover. At the same time you have to build around Hydreigon. Completely debunking your point on it being splashable. But thank you for pointing out my list, put a lot of work into it.

Hydreigon can't beat every mon in one set, but the fact that it can CHOOSE what mons it beats is what makes it the top of the crop.

Not without cost. And it's a terrible big cost every time. Other S rank mons as well as Mega Altaira, Primarina, and Terrakion don't go through this.
Now, it's not that Hydreigon can choose whatever mon it beats and call it a day. Plenty of mons can do this but you don't see them in S rank with Hydreigon. Like, Nidoking and Mega Altaria. In fact, Nidoking + Super Power for Blissey came before Hydreigon. I know a lot of what Hydreigon can do, as I even made a set (that varies with a couple moves) that can beat any mon that's slower than it, provided with minor chip or hazards. Fact is, it doesn't have a good speed tier or priority or proper set up moves (like nasty plot, quiver dance, etc.). It just has work up. So, it relies on items in order to keep up with the meta. It'll run a certain set to take down a certain mon (or a few) in order to catch an opponent off guard. It's decent at that but, it's not super good at it as it requires for situations to go it's way. Which is something I pointed out before.

I will not repeat what Smallsmallrose has already said but I just would like to highlight the fact that Hydreigon doesn't have any trouble fitting on Stall. Defog Hydreigon is a thing and it's a Pokemon which can be used in Stall without a problem. It's ability Levitate allows it to not be pressured by Spikes and Toxic Spikes unlike Altaria-Mega. Also, it brings to the team a pretty clean answer to Crawdaunt which is really annoying for Stall. Of course Altaria-Mega can also check Crawdaunt but it takes a Mega-Evolution slot on your team which means you can't opt for Steelix-Mega or Aggron-Mega.

It actually does, which is why you don't see it all too often on stall. In fact, I've never seen it on stall but I knew someone had. Never seen it on any sample stall teams or in any bazaar stall teams. Hydreigon has a tremendous amount of weaknesses, unlike Mega Altaria. Spikes are not popular, still don't get why people are saying this. Don't see one in sight. I wonder why. Mind you, Froslass (the main spiker I've seen on Adaam's and aim's spike teams) is in PU. Barely has over 1% usage. Maybe it rose a bit more now this month, don't know. Anyway, toxic spikes: Amoonguss and A-Muk and Tentacruel. Problem solved. Mega Altaria even runs refresh or heal bell. I will concede to the point about Crawduant.

Also, fairies are popular because: Mega Altaria and Primarina are flat out good. Other fairies like Florges and Sylveon are good against dragons period. Also, Sylveon runs moonblast over Hyper Voice for Kommo-O. Not Hydreigon. Mind you, fairies and Blissey have such a tough time with Latias, that you'll see Krookodile with Scarf being ran on stall & balance. And even Scarf Krook has a tough time with Latias that it runs Crunch sometimes, though it prefer stone edge for Moltres. I said a bit of this in previous posts but figured I'd go more in-depth this time.

"S Rank will be the top of the top, incredibly dominant Pokemon who don’t really have any equal."

If you don't think that's Hydreigon, you're likely playing the wrong tier.

Okay, thanks for the support and good points. Now, here's the thing: I remember the same thing being said about Bisharp in SM when I first nommed it to go from S -> A+ rank. Even debated with Hikari and Cynde. Bisharp ended up in A+ rank couple weeks later. Even aim had some good points about Ambipom and managed to convince a few top players that it wasn't even that bad. That's just 2 examples, there's more. People are much too quick to shut down unpopular ideas. Give 'em a chance.

 

[Hilomilo]

The update will be within the next day or two. However, until further notice, discussion on Hydreigon’s rank is not allowed. There has been way too much counterproductive arguing from both sides and it simply isn’t helpful discussing the topic anymore. Hydreigon will not likely move from where it is ranked until it experiences major change in the metagame, so in the meantime I suggest we focus on more useful topics that don’t derail and decrease the quality of discussion. Thanks for your patience with the update. Sage and I will do our best to get it out soon.

 

[SacredLatias]

Mega Blastoise B->B+: Absolutely
Looking at Megatoises coverage and utility, it stands out from other B tier pokemon, being one of the scariest rapid spinners in the tier. Due to its massive coverage and access to mega launcher, it is able to threaten out a majority of rock setters in the tier, and beat any spinblocker attempting to keep rocks on the field. Megatoise does struggle because of an absence of recovery, simple cleric support allows Megatoise to hang around all match, pressuring many teams with its fierce coverage. And I haven't even mentioned its bulk yet. While its 79 HP is a tad lackluster as a tank, its 120/115 defenses more than make up for it, being able to survive Z-Thunder from Latias and fire back with dark pulse, doing upwards of 84%

Calcs

252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 282-334 (77.9 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 120+ SpA Mega Launcher Blastoise-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 214-254 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Megatoise's stellar coverage and good utility should absolutely land it a spot in B+.

Chandelure B->B-: Agree
Chandelure is a good sweeper with a great special attack stat and amazing STAB coverage, but that same typing severly hinders it as a pokemon, as it is weak stealth rocks, is trapped by pursuit, and weak to knock off. Considering the most popular mons in the meta onclude krookodile and mega aerodactyl, Chandelure is hard to justify on a team, as it could so easily be trapped and KO'd, leaving a team at a disadvantage.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Sceptile-Mega B- --> A-

Sceptile is underrated because nobody ever appreciated how good it was versus offense, particularly Volt-Turn offenses, as its Leaf Storm is fast, powerful and OHKOs some offensive threats like Manectric-Mega. The other reason for the rise is rarely used EQ (over Giga Drain) - which for example can 2HKO Klefki, Muk-Alolan, Empoleon and OHKO Gengar. Meanwhile, Hidden Power Fire maintains the OHKO on Scizor and Leaf Storm and Dragon Pulse do big damage to basically all offensive Pokemon.

 

[Hilomilo]

The rankings have finally been updated! Thanks to everyone for their patience, and sorry that it took so long for this to finally happen. This time's batch of changes have been put together mostly to reflect the metagame's recent developments as SPL has unfolded, as well as some things that began trending following the metagame's eventual adjustment to our latest batch of tier shifts/unbans a few months back. Here's what we've got:

Changes

Rises

A -> A+

B+ -> A-

B -> B+

B -> B+

B- -> B

C+ -> B-

C -> C+

UR -> C-

UR -> C-

Drops

A+ -> A

A -> A-

A -> A-

A- -> B+

A- -> B+

B+ -> B

B+ -> B

B -> B-

B -> B-

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

C -> C-

C -> C-

C- -> UR

Rise Reasonings:

• Primarina has seen a considerable uptick in usage, with both its offensive and defensive sets finding places on multiple team archetypes and consistently pulling their weight. With its combined ability to function as a premier wallbreaker and check to tier staples in Hydreigon, Kommo-o, and more, Primarina’s teambuilding value is at an all-time high. Right now it’s looking to be the tier’s best Fairy-type, which a rise to A+ would reflect perfectly.
• Amoonguss is a solid defensive pivot with enough going for it to warrant placement in A-. Its Rocky Helmet set has seen usage as a reliable method of punishing Scizor’s U-turn with chip damage, a trait almost entirely unique to Amoonguss, alongside acting as a decent pivot into several top-shelf offensive threats. The threat of Spore is also fantastic in a metagame generally lacking in Pokemon capable of switching into it.
• Of the tier’s viable offensive Ghost-types, Gengar is currently the most capable of working around the metagame’s several thriving Dark-types. The surge in usage of its Substitute + Z-move / Status sets allow it to get around the many Pursuit trappers running about while matching up extremely well against offensive and balanced teams alike. Its current offensive value is much greater than what else is in B, justifying its rise.
• Mega Steelix is now in a comfortable place in the metagame, establishing enough clear niches for itself to be on par with its most direct competition in Mega Aggron. It comfortably checks fearsome threats in Nihilego and Latias by virtue of its Electric-immunity, has been making waves with its Curse + Gyro Ball set, and overall has a recognizable niche fully worth a rise at this stage.
• Sylveon is another Pokemon with enough combined niches to be a subrank closer to its main competition, Florges, than previously. It appreciates Kommo-o’s recent tendency to mostly run Overcoat as its ability and shares great synergy with several popular Steel-types thanks to its Wish passing capabilities. This in tandem with its slightly stronger physical bulk despite its lacking customizability gives it enough current value to sit comfortably in B.
• Froslass Spikes is a great play style in the current metagame, largely thanks to Froslass’s potency as a Suicide Lead. It can reliably set Spikes while highly burdening foes that try stopping it through the use of Taunt, Destiny Bond, or Icy Wind, while the common Pokemon fitted on Spikes builds share great synergy with it and highly benefit from its support. The strength of an offensive build Froslass carries on its back is enough for it to rise to the same rank as Azelf.
• Zygarde-10% has received a lot more recent exposure as a huge asset to several offensive teams. Its abilities to abuse Spikes, threaten several tier staples with its STAB combination, and match up well against most offenses thanks to its solid Speed tier have all allowed it to showcase its worth as a Pokemon well above the rest of C.
• Gastrodon is starting in C- due to its ability to check a unique amount of threats as a special wall despite its lack of significant usage. It can reliably combat the likes of Rotom-H, Manectric, Gengar, non-Taunt Hydreigon, and the tier’s several bulky Water-types thanks to its ability. Although it lacks clear exposure, it has enough of a niche for a rank and could rise further if said niche is explored more thoroughly.
• Although Shaymin runs into a lot of shortcomings as a sweeper, its Z-Celebrate set has been proven worthy of building around due to its potency. Shaymin’s combination of great bulk, adequate coverage, and an ability to take advantage of the tier’s several defensive Ground- and Water-types allows it to hold its own as an Omni-booster that can take on a large portion of the metagame. The support it requires can often be strenuous and team specific, though once acquired it truly is a force to be reckoned with and a hard Pokemon to reliably revenge kill.

Drop Reasonings:

• Empoleon is still the tier’s most reliable defensive defogger, though metagame trends have recently hit it hard enough for A to be a more appropriate rank. It can struggle as a Flying-type check due to the tier’s relevant offensive Flying-types being capable of working around it, while the influx in Fighting-types and Pokemon like Latias and Nihilego running Electric-type coverage also works to its disadvantage.
• Bisharp has settled into the meta a fair amount and doesn’t currently hold the prowess of an A-ranked offensive threat. Despite its great offensive capabilities, it is held back by the defensive drawbacks of its typing, its shabby Speed tier, and Sucker Punch’s unreliability. This in tandem with the current viability of several Fighting-types and Sucker Punch resists makes Bisharp a situational pick with less consistency or relevance than other A-ranked sweepers, like Kommo-o and Cobalion.
• Mamoswine’s lacking defensive utility has recently put it at a much larger disadvantage as several other options for wallbreakers and offensive rockers have risen to stardom. It’s still among the tier’s most annoying offensive Pokemon, though it often runs into the problem of netting a KO then sacrificing momentum as it’s forced out or even KOed. Its splashability and urgence are both simply much lower than in previous metagame phases.
• Hippowdon still does its job well, though Gligar’s emergence has given it enough healthy competition for the two to reasonably reside in the same rank. Its four-moveslot syndrome has seriously intensified with the rise of several defoggers that it needs specific moves to work around, like Rotom-H and Gligar, while it can have a hard time checking several Pokemon most other defensive Ground-types handle more easily, like Terrakion, Cobalion, Infernape, and Zeraora.
• Tentacruel is dropping on account of being a bit of an uncomfortable fit in the metagame. Its shaky bulk and lack of recovery complicate its ability to act as a reliable Fighting-type check in the metagame, while its passiveness often causes it to over-rely on Scald burns to punish its foes. While solid, it simply isn’t on the same level as the rest of A- currently due to its niche decreasing in value/reliability.
• Chesnaught and Crawdaunt are no longer as strong of picks as when both were first trending upwards. Chesnaught is no longer as urgent a pick in a metagame well-adjusted to Bisharp and Zeraora. It also tends to invite in a lot of the tier’s most notable threats to balance, the play style it fits best on, such as Gengar, Togekiss, Moltres, Mega Altaria, and Latias. Crawdaunt is still a scary breaker but is too held back by its frailty and low Speed, as well as the rise in several Spikes abusers that heavily compete with it for a slot.
• Chandelure continues to see its usage erode in the face of breakers that threaten it and the everlasting dominance of Pursuit. Other Ghost-types are far safer picks and while it does have some smaller niches in Sub CM and Scarf that other Ghosts can’t touch, the risk of picking it is far too often overbearing when trying to build with it.
• Stakataka has become a lot less reliable as a bulky steel, with the influx of Kommo-o providing a super solid switch in, and other Fighting-types surging in usage. It does have its strengths as one of the best pure Flying-type resists, but it is still breakable by Moltres and certain Togekiss sets which prevents it from being as dependable as other Rock-types in this regard.
• Crobat and Snorlax are both dropping from B- on account of being outdated picks in the metagame. Crobat really only has its Speed tier to capitalize on at this stage, with most popular Grass- and Fighting-types being fully capable of working around it and the decreased urgency of Flying-types in the builder in general. Snorlax has seen some success with its Custap Berry + Self Destruct sets, though it still is too situational a pick compared to the rest of B- given its huge Fighting-type vulnerability, a tendency to invite in several top threats, low usage, and its susceptibility to status.
• Darmanitan and Raikou are both dropping to C- due to having very minimal niches in the metagame with very stiff competition. Darmanitan’s sheer power is still enough to warrant placement, though its high opportunity cost in a metagame full of Fire-types with better typings, defensive attributes, and abilities to adapt hurts it greatly, while Raikou struggles greatly to perform without heavy competition from nearly any Electric-type or setup sweeper in the tier. Its Toxic set, while potent and unique, has also struggled to make a notable mark in the metagame since its innovation.
• Uxie is losing its rank to reflect that Trick Room is no longer viable enough to warrant representation in the VR. Since Trick Room was Uxie’s only niche, unlike either Cresselia or Alolan Marowak (which can provide decent utility to some HOs), it makes sense to unrank it, as other roles it may pursue are simply better done by other Pokemon or aren’t needed.

Hope you guys enjoyed! This time's discussion points and rejected nominations will be covered in the next post.