Yes, I agree with Mega Sharpedo staying A, while it faces competition from other megas like aerodactyl and altaria, it is still very good and has a unique typing so should stay A rank, however, I think it’s time Mega Steelix shares a rank with Mega Aggron, as Aggron has been on a decline in this meta for a while, meanwhile Steelix has become somewhat of a rising star in this meta, with sand force frequently giving it an attack boost thanks to hippodown, and an Electric immunity helps steelix carve out a niche for itself.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V3
- Thread starter Hilomilo
- Start date
Hey there folks, I’ve been thinking about this nomination for a while and I think it’s time to express myself. Recently I've been using quite a lot Altaria-Mega and I think that this Pokemon should rise to A+ for many reasons.
• Versatility : Altaria-Mega is a really versatile Pokemon in the Underused and it can be played in different ways. Indeed it can be a Setup Sweeper thanks to Dragon Dance but also a Bulky Pivot with its set 3 attacks + Roost. On the other hand it can support a team thanks to Defog and/or Heal Bell. Even on the offensive spectrum this Pokemon is really versatile and it can run so many options depending of what you need. It can opt for different STABs like Return / Frustration or Façade to punish Pokemon which whould like to cripple it with status. It can even run Double-Edge to inflict massive damages or Body Slam. On the other side it can either run Earthquake to hit Steel an Poison types or Flamethrower / Fire Blast to catch Scizor on the Switch-in. Recently, Refresh Altaria-Mega has become a incredible trend that allows it to setup on a plethora of passive Pokemon which rely on status to bother Altaria-Mega or kill it slowly. Altaria-Mega can also have a plethora of EVs spread depending of what you need. It can almost fulfil what you want/need.
• Typing : Altaria-Mega has an incredible defensive typing which gives it only 4 weakness for 6 resistances and 1 immunity to Dragon types which allows it to handle Hydreigon, Kommo-o and Latias to a lesser extent. Thanks to its typing, Altaria-Mega can also handle Pokemon like Sharpedo-Mega, Krookodile, Sceptile-Mega, Infernape, Rotom-Heat, Zeraora or Terrakion to a certain extent. This typing coupled with Pixilate allows it to be the only viable physical Fairy type in Underused which is great because it means that it doesn't met a lot of competition in its roles. Also its 4 weakness are pretty easy to offset.
• Statistics : Altaria-Mega has incredible statistics. Even if it’s a bit slow, it has a fantastic Bulk of 75/110/105 coupled with Roost which allows it to have a great Staying Power. On the other hand it has some great offensive statistics of 110 in both Attack and Special Attack which allows it to abuse of its Movepool by being able of being played Mixed. It also allows it to be either a Physical or a Special threat.
• Impact in the current Metagame : In my opinion, Altaria-Mega is as good if not better than Togekiss and should be rank at the same spot. It's an amazing Pokemon in the current Metagame which can bring a ton of utility to a team both on the offensive and defensive spectrum. It can be a really cool Setup Sweeper and Wincon but also a fantastic check to some common threats. The trends are in its favor because Altaria-Mega can handle with ease Pokemon like Hydreigon, Rotom-Heat, Krookodile, Kommo-o or Sharpedo-Mega which are all very common. It's a Pokemon which is better than ever at the moment and for this reason, I think it should rise to A+.
Last edited:
But none of these issues with Gligar are due to changes in the metagame. What has most notably changed is the loss of virtually every reliable Terrakion check, most importantly Gliscor, which gave Gligar its niche in the first place. Not to mention it's an excellent answer to Cobalion & Doublade, M-Aggron can't touch it, and it can pick off weakened Bisharp without much fear of its priority move. It's a solid hazard setter in the current metagame and an even better remover. Plus with the rise of HO as a playstyle its Knock Off and U-Turn can allow it to scout for z crystals and maintain momentum, respectively.
Im gonna go out on a limb and say Entei should be ranked, and here are my reasons:
Sacred Fire:
We all know Sacred Fire is a absolutely amazing move with great base power and a 50% burn chance. This alone helps it cripple otherwise threatening pokemon such as Mega Altaria, and provide reliable chip to boot.
Stats:
With a defensive stat line of 115/85/75 Entei is surprisingly bulky, acting as a soft sciz check in the sense that it outspeeds and forces sciz out, while its 115 attack and 100 speed allows it to hit like a truck, and even with the forced adamant nature because of the combination of extreme speed and sacred fire limiting its speed to 299, is able to outspeed heatom and nidoking.
Movepool:
While not as generous as other pokemon, Entei has a select few moves such as Extreme Speed, Stone Edge, Iron Head, and Stomping Tantrum that allow it to hit many things in the tier for SE damage.
Matchups:
Entei acts mainly as offensive pressure, being able to force out or KO pokemon in the tier such as the aforementioned Scizor, Chesnaught, and Heatom.
Overall, Entei is a pretty damn good pokemon in the tier, and I firmly believe that it would be perfect in either c+ or b-.
Sacred Fire:
We all know Sacred Fire is a absolutely amazing move with great base power and a 50% burn chance. This alone helps it cripple otherwise threatening pokemon such as Mega Altaria, and provide reliable chip to boot.
Stats:
With a defensive stat line of 115/85/75 Entei is surprisingly bulky, acting as a soft sciz check in the sense that it outspeeds and forces sciz out, while its 115 attack and 100 speed allows it to hit like a truck, and even with the forced adamant nature because of the combination of extreme speed and sacred fire limiting its speed to 299, is able to outspeed heatom and nidoking.
Movepool:
While not as generous as other pokemon, Entei has a select few moves such as Extreme Speed, Stone Edge, Iron Head, and Stomping Tantrum that allow it to hit many things in the tier for SE damage.
Matchups:
Entei acts mainly as offensive pressure, being able to force out or KO pokemon in the tier such as the aforementioned Scizor, Chesnaught, and Heatom.
Overall, Entei is a pretty damn good pokemon in the tier, and I firmly believe that it would be perfect in either c+ or b-.
Entei isn't as good this generation for two reasons:
1) Burn damage nerf. It used to be that spamming Sacred Fire would still cripple FatMons since it did 12.5% per tick, negating Lefties and chipping FatMons. Nowadays, it doesn't chip, so FatMons still retain their inherent defensiveness.
2) As a wallbreaker, Entei is a liability since you're mostly going to spam Sacred and that's it. Although there is a considerable number of UU Pokemon that are heavily threatened by Fire moves (Scizor, Cobalion, Amoonguss), there is equally large number of UU Pokemon that can capitalize on Fire spam (Latias, Hydreigon, Primarina). Choosing to Sacred Fire at the wrong time essentially means a free switch in on you, especially since you have no way of switching moves like other Fire wallbreakers in the tier (Moltres) or any other form of notable coverage on your set (Infernape).
You are correct, which is why i dont want it to be A or anything like that. IK it has flaws, which is why I believe c+ or b- is where it belongs in my opinion.
I might as well do this before Adaam milks any more likes.
Doublade to A-
Doublade is just a fantastic Pokémon as of late that is an amazing gluemon. I have found it really easy to justify using Doublade on Offense. It finds itself spots on Offense easily due to it combining the role of Offensive pivot and being one of the very few hard stops to the brutal Fighting-types of the tier while blanket checking the Dragons and other offensive threats. It is also a decent spinblocker for hazard stacking teams that want to pair it up with Bisharp (who synergize really well with each other mind you) to create strong anti removal. Doublade is arguably one of the best Steel-types in the tier with these positives and it definitely belongs up among the A- ranks.
Get sniped
Doublade is just a fantastic Pokémon as of late that is an amazing gluemon. I have found it really easy to justify using Doublade on Offense. It finds itself spots on Offense easily due to it combining the role of Offensive pivot and being one of the very few hard stops to the brutal Fighting-types of the tier while blanket checking the Dragons and other offensive threats. It is also a decent spinblocker for hazard stacking teams that want to pair it up with Bisharp (who synergize really well with each other mind you) to create strong anti removal. Doublade is arguably one of the best Steel-types in the tier with these positives and it definitely belongs up among the A- ranks.
Get sniped
I agree, Doublade is a very strong option because of its interesting typing and and great bulk. It does suffer a bit due to having common weaknesses and a potent weakness to knock off, but still a great addition to your team.I might as well do this before Adaam milks any more likes.
Doublade to A-
Doublade is just a fantastic Pokémon as of late that is an amazing gluemon. I have found it really easy to justify using Doublade on Offense. It finds itself spots on Offense easily due to it combining the role of Offensive pivot and being one of the very few hard stops to the brutal Fighting-types of the tier while blanket checking the Dragons and other offensive threats. It is also a decent spinblocker for hazard stacking teams that want to pair it up with Bisharp (who synergize really well with each other mind you) to create strong anti removal. Doublade is arguably one of the best Steel-types in the tier with these positives and it definitely belongs up among the A- ranks.
Get sniped
Hi everyone! I'm aware it's been a while since the thread's been updated, though I'd like to let you all know that Sage and I are planning on one in the coming weeks (likely around the midseason of SPL). While I'm here, though, I'd like to bring up some nominations of my own while also weighing in on a few of these discussion points. Hope you enjoy!
Kyurem A- -> B+: While I do think that Kyurem is still among the tier's most underrated Pokemon, I don't think A- is a good fit for it in this metagame. Kyurem's main advantage over other Dragon-types in past metagames has been its Ice-typing, but this doesn't really feel like as big a deal anymore. The defensive utility that Kommo-o, Mega Altaria, Latias, and Hydreigon can all provide with their typings is a lot more appreciated than what Kyurem currently brings, since its typing recently makes it a more uncomfortable fit while really only allowing it to check passive attackers and a few select Electric-types, like Rotom-C and sort of Mega Manectric, which the aforementioned Dragons can also do while checking larger varieties of Pokemon. The SubRoost set only gets going against passive attackers and is also facing some stiff competition with Taunt Hydreigon, which has picked up in usage some. Its typing just feels a lot less useful in a metagame that appreciates defensive utility in its Dragon-types, which in some matchups Kyurem can struggle to provide aside from coming in on Scald, which prompts me to believe that now is an okay time to drop it.
Uxie C- -> UR: Trick Room hasn't seen any serious use or success in a long time and as a full archetype is more of a gimmick than anything else at this stage. Uxie's ranked solely for its viability as a TR setter, and since this doesn't really hold any weight in the meta I think unranking it is fair. AloWak is Sage's baby and is decent on some HOs and Cresselia has received decent exposure on stalls with its defensive Fairium Z set, so I think those two are fair to rank since at this point their niches exist outside of Trick Room, unlike Uxie.
Gastrodon -> C/C+: I've toyed around with Gastrodon some and it pretty much does what it did before it rose to OU; checking a unique array of threats as a specially defensive wall. It offers a solid answer to Rotom-H, Water-types, Nidoking, and Manectric and can also match up well against opposing bulky Ground-types, NP Ape/Luc, Mega Aero, and non-Taunt Hydreigon sets if need be. I haven't tried physically defensive sets but I'm sure they're an option for better matching up against Krookodile, DD Kommo-o, and physical Infernape sets.
Other Discussion Points:
Drop to A: A month or two ago I would've disagreed with this, and I still don't dispute that Empoleon is probably the best defensive Defogger around, but meta trends haven't quite been in its favor. The steady influx in Fighting-type usage over the last several months has hurt it a lot while its niche of checking Flying-types is a lot less needed when our better birds (Togekiss, Moltres) have various ways of working around it. Electrium Latias and Nihilego are also trending, which really complicates Emp's ability to check either. It's still fantastic, but not enough for A+ to be fitting.
Drop both to B: Chesnaught's still good at its job but Chesnaught Spikes aren't nearly as prevalent an archetype as previously. It invites a lot of Pokemon in that are super troubling for balance to just sacrifice free turns to, like Moltres, Latias, Togekiss, Celebi, and particularly Gengar (which should rise to B+). We probably rose Crawdaunt a bit prematurely, since I'd say of all the changes dropping it is admittedly one of the most obvious/urgent to put through for this next update. It's hard for it to capitalize on its power when its Speed and bulk let it down so hard, while the rise in a lot of Spikes abusers and Kommo-o and Mega Altaria being great sort of strips it of its former title as a staple on Spikes HO.
Don't drop either of these: I may be going out on a limb in saying this but I think that both Mega Pidgeot and Swampert have enough going or them to stay afloat at the bottom of the B ranks. The niche of throwing out 100% accurate Hurricanes with Mega Pidgeot's Speed tier and pivoting capabilities is still pretty nice considering it gives Pidgeot pretty great synergy with all the Fighting-types that are really good right now. It also lures in a lot of Steels that they can often take advantage of pretty well. U-turning on Latias without a Choice Scarf is also something not a lot of other Pokemon in the tier are capable of. Swampert has definitely taken a nosedive but it's pretty unique at this point in its ability to check Mega Manectric and Rotom-H more reliably than most other Ground-types since they're a lot less inclined to run HP Grass and are back to running Ice-type coverage to nab Dragons and Gligar. It's still a decent defensive rocker thanks to this and its ability to blanket check a good amount of physical attackers, like Krookodile and Scizor. Countering Aero is also never a bad trait. I don't really have much to add that Adam didn't a few pages ago but yeah, I don't really think it'd be fair representing everything Pert brings with C+, especially since Band can also be pretty cool. Keep these two where they're at imo.
Hope you guys enjoyed reading! Thanks for giving me your time and keep up the great discussion :)
Other Discussion Points:
Hope you guys enjoyed reading! Thanks for giving me your time and keep up the great discussion :)
Okay so I haven't made a post in a while and seeing as the rankings will be updated soon, I'll put in my share of opinions and make a few myself. I'll start with my opinion on what others have nominated:
Mega Altaria from A to A+: I 100% agree with this, most of you know I love Malt but it definitely deserves a spot alongside Togekiss in A+. Moute has already elaborated why well so this will be short and I might echo some stuff he said. Malt is very flexible and versatile when it comes to how easy it is to put on a team and how many potential sets it can run. Because of its amazing defensive and offensive typing it is extremely easy to put on a team to patch up multiple weaknesses. It has an array of sets ranging from sweeping variants such as DD + Refresh and the standard DD + EQ. I have also enjoyed using 3 Atk Malt which is amazing for catching you opponent off guard and picking up a kill on Scizor or the 2OHKO on Empoleon and Tenta for example. It can also run a supportive utility set with Heal Bell and Defog, while I am personally not a huge fan of these sets they are viable enough to be used if the team requires it. With Dark and Fighting spam being everywhere Malt can have a field day when it comes to sweeping through teams. Also finding ways to beat common trends such as Rotom-H with Refresh or Facade + Refresh. Fluffy boi deserves to rise.
Empoleon from A+ to A: Empoleon has gotten a lot worse which others have also stated their opinions and agreed upon. Current meta trends just aren't in its favour and when it comes to being a Defog user I don't think it really shines in this role anymore. Even things it is supposed to check like Primarina beat this thing really easily, both Specs and Bulky (Let's be honest tho, if you ain't Blissey you don't check Prima). Specs fears very little other than Toxic but every time Empoleon comes in it takes like 30% chip and with its over reliance on Lefties it can't keep switching into this + other threats its supposed to soft check. As for Bulky Prima that just outright beats it and doesn't give a crap about Toxic and can retaliate with Scald burn mitigating its recovery. It can't even check Latias well especially with Elec-Z Latias being so prominent. Pokemon like Moltres and Togekiss can either beat it 1 vs 1 or heavily dent it meaning it doesn't fulfil its role as a flying resist.
Gengar from B to B+: Why is this thing so scary when it sets up a Sub lmao. Half the time I run into it I just refuse to swap because I don't want it getting behind a Sub, knowing full well it's going to claim like two Mons. Fight-Z allowing it to nuke Hydra, Krook and Scizor just alleviates how weak it is to being Pursuit trapped. As also pointed out I actually love using Hex + Wisp sets, while I don't think it is better than Sub Fight-Z it is definitely viable enough.
Crobat from B- to C+: Yeah I agree with this one also, Crobat just isn't in a favourable spot right now with Serperior etc. having left the tier. Even with fighting types being so common it doesn't switch into most of them well at all. It can't hard into Terrakion or Kommo-o for example without getting blown back or taking well over 70% of its health. There just isn't a whole lot going for it right now other than having a really good speed stat imo
Uxie C- to UR: I also agree with this as Trick Room just isn't very prevalent or good right now. This directly hurts the niche this Mon had as a TR setter and Memento user. As Hilomilo already said Cresselia has seen some usage with CM + Fairium-Z which I am aware of. Personally I haven't seen Alowak used on many HO teams (I assume Webs?), but hey if it is viable outside TR then I guess its fine where it is but otherwise I'd say drop that too.
Cofagrigus from C+ to C-/UR: So I saw this a little while ago and I think this is pretty much linked in with Trick Room which just isn't that good right now. In terms of its OTR sets I don't see a lot of merit of using this over Reuniculus other than it being immune to Fighting types and being able to negate the ability of Physical attackers. Idk it just seems very niche and idrk why its ranked so high up.
Doublade from B+ to A-: Hell yeah this thing should rise. Doublade has proven itself in this meta very well not just on HO teams but also BO and Balance. Unlike some of the more passive steel types like Aggron this thing is extremely bulky with Eviolite but also functions as an amazing late game sweeper. As Bayb already mentioned it's very easy to put on HO as a gluemon with its fantastic typing. On Balance teams I love partnering it up with Pokemon like Sylveon which can Wish pass to keep this thing healthy throughout a match. It provides so much for teams in one slot and I think that is obvious to see with it rising from RU to UU.
Kyurem from A- to B+: I'm on the fence with this one as I feel Kyurem is very similar to Suicune in terms of how well it can succeed in the meta. As already mentioned, it doesn't have much going for it in terms of its defensive typing compared to the other dragons. But without a doubt it is extremely threatening on Balance teams that support it well. It beats out Pokemon like Moltres and Rotom-H which can't break through it that well with Sub + Roost, it having a decent speed tier is what helps it achieve this. But as I said it needs a lot of team support to work effectively and I think that's one of the biggest issues it has going for it. Unlike Kommo-o for example which is very splashable, hits like a truck and can provide utility through SR and Taunt. I think Kyurem is always going to be a threat especially with T-spikes but yeah I can agree in-terms of what it brings to the table it is a lot less than the other dragon types we have. I haven't really ventured much with its Specs set but for now I'm not sure on this one.
Gastrodon to C: So I haven't really used this a whole lot. I built one team recently with it and tested in low ladder, but that was about it. It's not god awful as it can check a variety of threats in the tier mainly the special electric and fire types as mentioned above, which is nice but yeah, it's nothing crazy. Imo I'd put it in C simply because I don't think its much better than Seismitoad. If this thing had access to Stealth Rocks sure, but otherwise the only real utility support it brings is Toxic even if it is bulkier.
Anyway time for my own nominations some of which I think have been discussed before but oh well:
Heracross from B to B-: Heracross just struggles tremendously right now especially when it comes to competing for a space with the other fighting types in the tier. I won't brush over it being very scary to switch into or if given a free switch-in, but because of how slow it is as a wallbreaker it struggles to do a lot. Imo I've found it to be difficult to even set-up an SD on a lot of Pokemon due to how much shit its weak to. Also unlike say Cobalion or Kommo-o which can also run boosting moves to wallbreak they provide more defensive utility and utility in general in the form of SR or Taunt etc. There is also severe competition with Terrakion which just breaks things harder and has an easier time pulling it off thanks to its 108 Speed tier. I just don't think it belongs in B with what is currently sitting there
Rhyperior from C+ to C / C-: This is just like Cofag where I don't think it should be ranked so high up, especially with common trends in the meta. There is probably no or little instance where you would want to use this because you want to compress a flying resist, SR user and electric immunity into one. This one is more nit-picky but it's no way near on the same level as Palossand which does so much more in this current meta game.
Hippo from A- to B+: So, I might get a lot of shit for this one but I don't think Hippowdon is all that amazing or at least not as good as it used to be especially when Empo + Hippo core was so prevalent and strong. I know it has adapted in some ways, where people are running Max Def in order to avoid the 2OHKO from CB Terrakion CC but I think it faces a bit of competition with other ground types, especially Gligar. Gligar basically out right walls this Pokemon and because it is forced to run Toxic in most cases rather than Whirlwind because of all the Rotom-H spam it can have a hard time setting up Rocks against either of them. In terms of what its supposed to wall like Mega Manectric and Cobalion etc. I think it can still achieve this well. But even with it having to run max Def it will fall over from a +2 All Out Pummeling from Coba with minimal chip for example. It can't compete against Mixed Clanger with the combination of Dragonium + Taunt either which is seeing a lot of usage on both BO and HO teams. With the rise of NP Ape, it no longer handles that well unlike Gligar (Even if that has a hard time too). Even the introduction of Zera makes it struggles to reliably switch into that without risking getting 2OHKO'd by Grass Knot. Idk personally I don't think its as great as it previously was, but I could be wrong and I'm curious about what you guys think.
Anyway, that is it from me, I've already given my opinions on like Ape, Crawdaunt etc. before so no point repeating that stuff. However, I would like to mention Mega Pidgeot which I have begun to change my mind about. Originally, I felt it should drop and while my opinion about it being pretty bad is still intact, I did underestimate how strong having 100% accurate Hurricanes are. Both me using it or playing against it made me acknowledge how annoying it can be especially when it comes to wearing down Rotom-H. So, I think it is fine where it is. Also sorry for any spelling or grammar mistakes I tried my best to proof read this lol ^_^
Anyway time for my own nominations some of which I think have been discussed before but oh well:
Anyway, that is it from me, I've already given my opinions on like Ape, Crawdaunt etc. before so no point repeating that stuff. However, I would like to mention Mega Pidgeot which I have begun to change my mind about. Originally, I felt it should drop and while my opinion about it being pretty bad is still intact, I did underestimate how strong having 100% accurate Hurricanes are. Both me using it or playing against it made me acknowledge how annoying it can be especially when it comes to wearing down Rotom-H. So, I think it is fine where it is. Also sorry for any spelling or grammar mistakes I tried my best to proof read this lol ^_^
Hi UU! I'd like to post my thoughts on a few current noms, without further ado, here they are.
Kyurem to B+
I've never really liked Kyurem's niche in UU as well as the fact that it is very susceptible to Scizor and fight spam. Fight spam Pokemon have increased in usage recently, and I find it very difficult to fit on teams and find an opportunity to set up in games I use it in. Although it still is useful in matchups vs stall, I still find it very underwhelming and don't think it really has a place in A- along with mons such as Rotom-Heat and Celebi.
Doublade to A-
I find this mon very good in the recent meta and i think it's about time it rises to A-. As BackAtYouBro mentioned, its a very good check against most of the meta's fight spam and is a solid physical tank with Eviolite as well. It also can be a threat to unprepared teams and with an SD or two it can blow through those teams. Though it is relatively easily checked by faster special attackers or bulkier pokemon such as Infernape and Quagsire respectivley , it's still a very solid physical glue and is able to cover a lot of the metagame and definitley deserves a rise to A-.
Altaria-Mega to A+
I'm not gonna go into this as much but I agree with everything that Moutemoute has said about Alt. It's a solid blanket check to a lot of threats in the current meta with respective bulk+roost, while at the same time being a good physical, special, and mixed attacker as well as being a solid wincon with DD.
Steelix-Mega to B+
I'm late to this but here I am. Steelix is an amazing steel glue mon right now along with Doublade. Although it lacks the fighting immunity and role as a fighting check, it has its differences over Doublade that give it a strong niche. Steelix for one, has a ground typing which allows it to be a better check to electric types. It also gets rocks coupled with curse which can make it an offensive rocker. It also can be a superb defensive wall along with rest to give it passive recovery and provide an amazing mon in all.
damnit twilight sniped me on the heracross nom
Heracross to B- : Agree
Gengar to B+ : Hard Agree
Primarina to S : Hard Disagree
Hydreigon to A+ : Hard Disagree
Krook to A : Hard Disagree
Empoleon to A: Abstain
I've never really liked Kyurem's niche in UU as well as the fact that it is very susceptible to Scizor and fight spam. Fight spam Pokemon have increased in usage recently, and I find it very difficult to fit on teams and find an opportunity to set up in games I use it in. Although it still is useful in matchups vs stall, I still find it very underwhelming and don't think it really has a place in A- along with mons such as Rotom-Heat and Celebi.
I find this mon very good in the recent meta and i think it's about time it rises to A-. As BackAtYouBro mentioned, its a very good check against most of the meta's fight spam and is a solid physical tank with Eviolite as well. It also can be a threat to unprepared teams and with an SD or two it can blow through those teams. Though it is relatively easily checked by faster special attackers or bulkier pokemon such as Infernape and Quagsire respectivley , it's still a very solid physical glue and is able to cover a lot of the metagame and definitley deserves a rise to A-.
I'm not gonna go into this as much but I agree with everything that Moutemoute has said about Alt. It's a solid blanket check to a lot of threats in the current meta with respective bulk+roost, while at the same time being a good physical, special, and mixed attacker as well as being a solid wincon with DD.
I'm late to this but here I am. Steelix is an amazing steel glue mon right now along with Doublade. Although it lacks the fighting immunity and role as a fighting check, it has its differences over Doublade that give it a strong niche. Steelix for one, has a ground typing which allows it to be a better check to electric types. It also gets rocks coupled with curse which can make it an offensive rocker. It also can be a superb defensive wall along with rest to give it passive recovery and provide an amazing mon in all.
damnit twilight sniped me on the heracross nom
Heracross to B- : Agree
Gengar to B+ : Hard Agree
Primarina to S : Hard Disagree
Hydreigon to A+ : Hard Disagree
Krook to A : Hard Disagree
Empoleon to A: Abstain
Attachments
Last edited:
Few serious notes on the metagame after playing a lot, trying out so many teams, building so many teams, checking out so many tour replays, and checking out so many posts.
Hydreigon S -> A+ rank - This mon suffers a lot through 50/50s and each set it runs only deals with less than 50% of the meta. That should be considered good for S rank but, Latias & Scizor really set the bar high.
Latias - Fast, Strong, and Bulky on it's own. Latias can even tank a SE move, especially with CM + Recover. Not only that, it's extremely flexible and can run a vast amount of sets that will always take on 50%+ of the meta.
Scizor - Same as Latias minus the speed but still has strong priority.
Give them items and they become unpredictable and really annoying. Hydreigon requires items to be at that their base level.
Hydreigon would definitely be S rank material if these 2 mons just did not exist. Hydreigon is definitely a great mon in the tier solely due to the fact that it can pick it's checks and counters. The problem with doing that though, is that it still relies on certain mons staying in. Take for instance Z Belch. It needs the fairy to stay otherwise does nothing to fairies anymore. In tour play, most of the time the player would just click U-Turn.
Choice Scarf - Loses to Scarf Nape, Scarf Latias (loses also if it comes in after Latias starts to set up on the cm set), Blissey, Empoleon (if running toxic or ice beam), Scarf Terrakion, Togekiss, Sylveon, Altaria-Mega, it's a 50/50 with Cobalion, Mega Aggron (if running Avalanche), it's a 50/50 with Mega Beedrill, and it's a 50/50 with Mega Steelix.
People might say that it's bulky and it can tank hits so it can go in to provide momentum or get a KO. Well, most of those same mons can take it out too on a mispredict. So there are just so many 50/50s with this set. It definitely has a tough time coming in and getting warn down for bigger threats. Take for instance getting warn down by rocks due to not being able to take on fairies, then Mega Sharpedo just come in to clean with Ice Fang.
And this is supposed to be it's best set.
Thing is, when there are no fairies and Hydreigon is scarfed or specs, then it pretty much puts in a lot of work.
The amount of positives that comes with Hydreigon is very good. But not nearly on the same level as Latias or Scizor. (Not even including Terrakion, Mega Altaria, or Primarina as I'll talk about them down below.)
Empoleon A+ -> A- rank - This mon is great for scouting, phazing, and wearing threats down. But, it's so easy to wear down and it's easy to take advantage of it when it goes for defog. Another big problem for Empoleon is that it relies on scald burns, running the right set, and heavy predictions. A lot of the times it requires another mon to assist in it checking a mon like Latias, Moltres, and Altaria-Mega.
Hazards - A huge problem for Empoleon when it comes to be a defogger is that it lacks recovery and it takes chip from stealth rocks and spikes. So, it it'll get weakened by a combination of hazards, U-Turn, and neutral hitting moves. Allowing threats like Bisharp to threaten it in the back for going for defog. At the same time, due to it's steel typing, mons like Swampert, Krookodile, Cobalion, and Steelix-Mega can easily deal big damage or outright KO, keeping up rocks in cases of Krookodile and Cobalion. Beedrill-Mega even has a way of pressuring it with Drill Run to keep up toxic spikes.
Right now, I'd say Gligar is the better defogger due to being able to take on hazard setters better; minus Swampert and Curse Mega-Steelix.
Passiveness - Since it doesn't have U-Turn or Volt Switch, it has to rely heavily on on doubling or mons staying in. The reason why I say this is because, Gligar has U-Turn & is one of it's main competitors. The fact that it has access to roar can be good for making sure mons don't set-up sweep but, at the same time it does want protect to scout moves + wear down mons after toxic or burning through scald. A bit of 4MSS that isn't too problematic. Another problem is that it relies a lot on scald burning threats like Swampert, Mega Steelix, and Bisharp. Otherwise it gets KO'd and no defog opportunity. With it's main sets, it has problems dealing big damage too. A way of patching this problem could be going for Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. The thing is, it still gets hard walled by Volcanion and rest-talk Primarina. It also gets trapped & set up on by Slowbro.
Krookodile A+ -> A rank - Great scarfer & decent rocker. That's about it. It's not too bad to be a semi-linear mon as some have been huge problems before and even have been banned or gone to S rank. Too bad Krook is not the same.
Scarf - Boosted speed + Pursuit, sounds great. Problem is that when it fails it gets KO'd. It's not like there are a lot of mons it traps either. Due to being susceptible to every hazard (rocks to a lesser extent), most forms of priority (though +1 & +3 adamant Bisharp deals a lot of damage), and fat mons, it really falls short as a scarfer. Sometimes it fails checking what it's supposed to beat like Latias, Bisharp, Mega-Aero, and Mega Bee. Another big problem is that it can be worn pretty easily and doesn't appreciate taking U-Turns even with Intimidate up. Scarf Infernape is better due to consistent and stronger STABs + U-Turn; Scarf Latias is better due to being able to trick on fat mons, being able to run defog, and having a strong STAB in Draco Meteor; there's even Hydreigon where if there no fairies then it clicks Dark Pulse + Draco Meteor a lot with no many worries. They are all faster too. They can even bluff other sets as all 3 are very dangerous.
Stealth Rocks - It has to be careful when to set them up. It beats Empoleon, Mega Steelix, and non-Avalanche Mega Aggron (especially if it is running Groundium Z). Thing is, I feel like Azelf is better. I compare the two because Krook seems so frail in this meta. Too many strong hitters & fighting spam. Azelf has taunt, ways of dealing with the meta through it's perfect movepool and explosion for any spinners/defoggers.
Terrakion A+ -> S rank - Strong hitter, super flexible, hard to predict, & an out right good candidate for suspect (won't go into this so no worries).
Strong Hitter - Close Combat + Stone Edge are really good STABs that hit most of the meta hard. It has great ways of wearing down threats and great ways of dealing with checks. Substitute is quite the annoying set as it can deal chip damage on what fat mon comes in or score more KOs through STABs alone or a Z move. Scarf allows it to handle fast mons and becomes difficult to revenge kill solely due to speed + power + bulk. Banded makes it much more difficult to wall as even Gligar is forced to roost up constantly or gets flat out 2HKO'd after rocks + chip. This mon is incredibly unpredictable as letting it get to +2 means a sweep or it punches holes. It's definitely a mon that scores at least one KO every game.
A big problem with Terrakion would be the bulk as a lot of mons can deal big damage to it due to rock being bad defensive typing.
Altaria-Mega A -> S rank - Tough to check/counter, super flexible, best mega, super fat, and great set-up sweeper.
Altaria-Mega is kind of a perfect mon. What holds it back is not having instant access to fairy typing and having slight 4MSS on it's set-up sets. Even then, sometimes a player can work this to an advantage as pre-mega with Fire Blast it can KO Scizor. Also, it's set-up sets are really annoying to beat no matter what. Sometimes it can just set-up turn 1 and flat out sweep.
Altaria-Mega has many resistances + an immunity and only a few weaknesses in Steel, Ice, and Poison. Thing is, most steel types are easy to wear down and it has access to Fire Blast + Earthquake for them anyway. Altaria-Mega with enough bulk investiment can even take 1 banded BP from Scizor at full. Ice Types: Kyruem is weak to Pixilate frustration/return/hyper voice and Mamoswine doesn't switch-in well. If they're in already, then Altaria-Mega loses. Poison: Gengar & Mega Beedrill can't switch-in and are easily KO'd after a DD. A-Muk has to be weary of physical sets as it loses in most cases to them.
It's arguable that DD Altaria-Mega sweeps better than SD Scizor due to better STAB and speed. Alt-Mega is only weak to one form of priority (bullet punch) and Scizor is the only relevant mon that runs it.
50/50s can be very annoying with this mon as it can go either physical or special (as mentioned above) and both of them have their different checks/counters. So, it's easy for it to score surprise KOs. Something Latias nor Scizor can boast. Not even broken Terrakion. Sure, Hydreigon can but Alt-Mega does it way better due to better typing. Sometimes it can be obvious if it's physical or special through team preview as you usually have to build around DD Alt-Mega. But, EQ sets can be run on similar teams as Fire Blast sets.
Primarina A -> S rank - This mon is super good. Probably the best mon in the entire tier. It beats everything. No joke. Sure, in some cases it relies on mispredicts (Zeroara + Mega Mane + Mega Scept) and the right set (metronome vs Blissey) but still, this mon is ridiculous and requires many checks on one team to ensure it doesn't go off. This mon can run so many sets and each set easily dominates 50%+ of the meta. It's super splashable too as it can even work well with other water & fairy types on the same team. Mega Altaria + Primarina is super annoying to deal with as a spam core. It can beat all S ranks, and it has ways of handling the entire A ranks. No mon can do this as easy as this mon can.
It's extremely hard to switch-in to for HO or Balance due to it's instant power. It's hard to check on stall due to all of it's sets.
This mon even makes rest-stalk not look passive due to scald burns & moonblast hitting so hard. It even pulls off Work Up to KO 1-2 mons in many games with minimal effort. MVP.
Slowbro A -> A+ rank - Super good trapper & super fat. It can handle a good portion of fighting spam (Cobalion, Infernape, Lucario) and still maintain momentum with trapping and regenerator. This mon is incredibly good at trapping hazard setters and hazard removers that lack U-Turn (sometimes Gligar runs knock over u-turn). It's also great at trapping and crippling threats like Mega Aero, Cobalion, Amoonguss, and choice locked Latias & Terrakion. It can even take a u-turn from banded scizor and mega bee, as well as pursuit from banded scizor and scarf krookodile.
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 254-302 (64.4 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 232-276 (58.8 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And when it successfully traps a mon and manages to set up fully with a good amount of HP, it can even sweep a team due to CM boosted bulk and it's massive physical bulk.
Infernape A- -> A+ rank - Takes on every style of play with every set. It's never useless. Not many mons can boast this. Hard checks top threats in Bisharp and Scizor. Great forms of priority in mach punch + vacuum wave. Great ways of setting up physically or special through SD & Nasty Plot respectively. Incredibly difficult to scout, great at chipping checks/counters, and it's stats are near perfect for it's mobility. Only downfall is not enough bulk and 4MSS on special sets. (It's pretty funny though that it also has slack off and stealth rocks. It's like, "what doesn't this mon have?")
Kyurem A- -> B rank - Can't handle the meta that well. Fighting types and Scizors are everywhere. Scizor is on over 1/3 of teams. Fairies are a big problem and it has a tough time pressuring Blissey's recovery due to lack of power with it's substitute set. Does nothing to Primarina and allows it to just be a bigger threat than it already is. It's very weak to rocks, forcing it to roost up with sub sets or forcing it to be in the back with specs sets. A lot of the time you'll be doing doubles with this mon. It's easy to switch into for many teams (specs to a lesser extent) and it's hard to build with due to lack of defensive synergy because of ice typing.
Amoonguss B+ -> A- rank - Annoying mon that puts in work every game. It's not good at scoring KOs, sucks at it even. But, it's great at crippling teams for other mons to sweep. It can tank SE hits that are non-STAB (like fire blast from hydreigon) and can proceed to just spore or foul play or sludge bomb poison. A big hold back for this mon is 4MSS with sludge bomb or clear smog and foul play or HP fire. It's also incredibly weak and can be quite passive. Regenerator does allow it keep up in this fast paced VoltTurn Meta (it even soaks up t-spikes).
Suicune B+ -> A rank - Tough to build but hard to face. Suicune with rest-talk is hard to get damage on or even wear down, especially on heal bell teams (A.K.A. stall teams). It's also difficult to OHKO due to massive bulk on both sides w/ a solid HP stat. It has a tough time with VoltTurn teams due to lack of momentum but if played right, it can cripple VoltTurn through scald burns. It works against every playstyle (HO to a lesser extent) and usually puts in work through pressure or scald burns alone. Biggest problem is that it doesn't fit on that many teams due to the requirement of having back-up when it rests. And if it's Vincune then you need a good knock switch-in.
Zeroara B+ -> A- rank - A super fast mon that works a lot like Mega Aerodactyl. Mega Aero works best against crippled mons and Zeraora is pretty much the same in that respect due to it's high speed, great STAB, and great coverage in Close Combat + Grass Knot. Although Mega Aero is the fastest non-scarf mon in the tier, Zera does have volt-switch and knock off (for scarf mons) over it. It can even handle a weakened Latias better than Krook sometimes as it doesn't have to worry about 50/50s due to not needing scarf and if Cobalion comes in to take the knock, it can KO it with Z CC. A luring weakness it has is 4MSS in wanting to run bulk up, grass knot, HP ice, volt switch and knock off in combination with CC + PF.
Muk-Alola B -> C+ rank or lower - What does this mon check reliably? Starmie has scald, Gengar has sub shenanigans, Latias has z moves, and other special attackers just don't care about it. This mon is useless. It relies way too heavily on doubles to work efficiently. It's also way to easy to chip down.
Volcanion B -> B+ rank - Great check to a lot of top tier threats like Bisharp, Scizor, and Primarina. There are so many fat waters on teams that allow Volcanion to set up Subs & deal massive damage with it's 2 STABs. It's also not hard walled by water types due to sludge wave and z bloom doom. It's pretty east to wear down, it has a tough time scoring KOs against certain teams but, it is still useful against a decent portion of the meta without requiring too much support.
Tornadus B- -> B+ rank - Extremely fast at 111 base speed. Out speeding Latias and base 108s (so many of them). It has a hard hitting STAB in Hurricane and great coverage in sludge wave, super power, knock off, u-turn, and focus blast. A great niche it has over Moltres is it being able to wear down Blissey through super powers and stronger u-turn momentum. As well as being able to take rocks better.
Hydreigon S -> A+ rank - This mon suffers a lot through 50/50s and each set it runs only deals with less than 50% of the meta. That should be considered good for S rank but, Latias & Scizor really set the bar high.
Latias - Fast, Strong, and Bulky on it's own. Latias can even tank a SE move, especially with CM + Recover. Not only that, it's extremely flexible and can run a vast amount of sets that will always take on 50%+ of the meta.
Scizor - Same as Latias minus the speed but still has strong priority.
Give them items and they become unpredictable and really annoying. Hydreigon requires items to be at that their base level.
Hydreigon would definitely be S rank material if these 2 mons just did not exist. Hydreigon is definitely a great mon in the tier solely due to the fact that it can pick it's checks and counters. The problem with doing that though, is that it still relies on certain mons staying in. Take for instance Z Belch. It needs the fairy to stay otherwise does nothing to fairies anymore. In tour play, most of the time the player would just click U-Turn.
Choice Scarf - Loses to Scarf Nape, Scarf Latias (loses also if it comes in after Latias starts to set up on the cm set), Blissey, Empoleon (if running toxic or ice beam), Scarf Terrakion, Togekiss, Sylveon, Altaria-Mega, it's a 50/50 with Cobalion, Mega Aggron (if running Avalanche), it's a 50/50 with Mega Beedrill, and it's a 50/50 with Mega Steelix.
People might say that it's bulky and it can tank hits so it can go in to provide momentum or get a KO. Well, most of those same mons can take it out too on a mispredict. So there are just so many 50/50s with this set. It definitely has a tough time coming in and getting warn down for bigger threats. Take for instance getting warn down by rocks due to not being able to take on fairies, then Mega Sharpedo just come in to clean with Ice Fang.
And this is supposed to be it's best set.
Thing is, when there are no fairies and Hydreigon is scarfed or specs, then it pretty much puts in a lot of work.
The amount of positives that comes with Hydreigon is very good. But not nearly on the same level as Latias or Scizor. (Not even including Terrakion, Mega Altaria, or Primarina as I'll talk about them down below.)
Empoleon A+ -> A- rank - This mon is great for scouting, phazing, and wearing threats down. But, it's so easy to wear down and it's easy to take advantage of it when it goes for defog. Another big problem for Empoleon is that it relies on scald burns, running the right set, and heavy predictions. A lot of the times it requires another mon to assist in it checking a mon like Latias, Moltres, and Altaria-Mega.
Hazards - A huge problem for Empoleon when it comes to be a defogger is that it lacks recovery and it takes chip from stealth rocks and spikes. So, it it'll get weakened by a combination of hazards, U-Turn, and neutral hitting moves. Allowing threats like Bisharp to threaten it in the back for going for defog. At the same time, due to it's steel typing, mons like Swampert, Krookodile, Cobalion, and Steelix-Mega can easily deal big damage or outright KO, keeping up rocks in cases of Krookodile and Cobalion. Beedrill-Mega even has a way of pressuring it with Drill Run to keep up toxic spikes.
Right now, I'd say Gligar is the better defogger due to being able to take on hazard setters better; minus Swampert and Curse Mega-Steelix.
Passiveness - Since it doesn't have U-Turn or Volt Switch, it has to rely heavily on on doubling or mons staying in. The reason why I say this is because, Gligar has U-Turn & is one of it's main competitors. The fact that it has access to roar can be good for making sure mons don't set-up sweep but, at the same time it does want protect to scout moves + wear down mons after toxic or burning through scald. A bit of 4MSS that isn't too problematic. Another problem is that it relies a lot on scald burning threats like Swampert, Mega Steelix, and Bisharp. Otherwise it gets KO'd and no defog opportunity. With it's main sets, it has problems dealing big damage too. A way of patching this problem could be going for Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. The thing is, it still gets hard walled by Volcanion and rest-talk Primarina. It also gets trapped & set up on by Slowbro.
Krookodile A+ -> A rank - Great scarfer & decent rocker. That's about it. It's not too bad to be a semi-linear mon as some have been huge problems before and even have been banned or gone to S rank. Too bad Krook is not the same.
Scarf - Boosted speed + Pursuit, sounds great. Problem is that when it fails it gets KO'd. It's not like there are a lot of mons it traps either. Due to being susceptible to every hazard (rocks to a lesser extent), most forms of priority (though +1 & +3 adamant Bisharp deals a lot of damage), and fat mons, it really falls short as a scarfer. Sometimes it fails checking what it's supposed to beat like Latias, Bisharp, Mega-Aero, and Mega Bee. Another big problem is that it can be worn pretty easily and doesn't appreciate taking U-Turns even with Intimidate up. Scarf Infernape is better due to consistent and stronger STABs + U-Turn; Scarf Latias is better due to being able to trick on fat mons, being able to run defog, and having a strong STAB in Draco Meteor; there's even Hydreigon where if there no fairies then it clicks Dark Pulse + Draco Meteor a lot with no many worries. They are all faster too. They can even bluff other sets as all 3 are very dangerous.
Stealth Rocks - It has to be careful when to set them up. It beats Empoleon, Mega Steelix, and non-Avalanche Mega Aggron (especially if it is running Groundium Z). Thing is, I feel like Azelf is better. I compare the two because Krook seems so frail in this meta. Too many strong hitters & fighting spam. Azelf has taunt, ways of dealing with the meta through it's perfect movepool and explosion for any spinners/defoggers.
Terrakion A+ -> S rank - Strong hitter, super flexible, hard to predict, & an out right good candidate for suspect (won't go into this so no worries).
Strong Hitter - Close Combat + Stone Edge are really good STABs that hit most of the meta hard. It has great ways of wearing down threats and great ways of dealing with checks. Substitute is quite the annoying set as it can deal chip damage on what fat mon comes in or score more KOs through STABs alone or a Z move. Scarf allows it to handle fast mons and becomes difficult to revenge kill solely due to speed + power + bulk. Banded makes it much more difficult to wall as even Gligar is forced to roost up constantly or gets flat out 2HKO'd after rocks + chip. This mon is incredibly unpredictable as letting it get to +2 means a sweep or it punches holes. It's definitely a mon that scores at least one KO every game.
A big problem with Terrakion would be the bulk as a lot of mons can deal big damage to it due to rock being bad defensive typing.
Altaria-Mega A -> S rank - Tough to check/counter, super flexible, best mega, super fat, and great set-up sweeper.
Altaria-Mega is kind of a perfect mon. What holds it back is not having instant access to fairy typing and having slight 4MSS on it's set-up sets. Even then, sometimes a player can work this to an advantage as pre-mega with Fire Blast it can KO Scizor. Also, it's set-up sets are really annoying to beat no matter what. Sometimes it can just set-up turn 1 and flat out sweep.
Altaria-Mega has many resistances + an immunity and only a few weaknesses in Steel, Ice, and Poison. Thing is, most steel types are easy to wear down and it has access to Fire Blast + Earthquake for them anyway. Altaria-Mega with enough bulk investiment can even take 1 banded BP from Scizor at full. Ice Types: Kyruem is weak to Pixilate frustration/return/hyper voice and Mamoswine doesn't switch-in well. If they're in already, then Altaria-Mega loses. Poison: Gengar & Mega Beedrill can't switch-in and are easily KO'd after a DD. A-Muk has to be weary of physical sets as it loses in most cases to them.
It's arguable that DD Altaria-Mega sweeps better than SD Scizor due to better STAB and speed. Alt-Mega is only weak to one form of priority (bullet punch) and Scizor is the only relevant mon that runs it.
50/50s can be very annoying with this mon as it can go either physical or special (as mentioned above) and both of them have their different checks/counters. So, it's easy for it to score surprise KOs. Something Latias nor Scizor can boast. Not even broken Terrakion. Sure, Hydreigon can but Alt-Mega does it way better due to better typing. Sometimes it can be obvious if it's physical or special through team preview as you usually have to build around DD Alt-Mega. But, EQ sets can be run on similar teams as Fire Blast sets.
Primarina A -> S rank - This mon is super good. Probably the best mon in the entire tier. It beats everything. No joke. Sure, in some cases it relies on mispredicts (Zeroara + Mega Mane + Mega Scept) and the right set (metronome vs Blissey) but still, this mon is ridiculous and requires many checks on one team to ensure it doesn't go off. This mon can run so many sets and each set easily dominates 50%+ of the meta. It's super splashable too as it can even work well with other water & fairy types on the same team. Mega Altaria + Primarina is super annoying to deal with as a spam core. It can beat all S ranks, and it has ways of handling the entire A ranks. No mon can do this as easy as this mon can.
It's extremely hard to switch-in to for HO or Balance due to it's instant power. It's hard to check on stall due to all of it's sets.
This mon even makes rest-stalk not look passive due to scald burns & moonblast hitting so hard. It even pulls off Work Up to KO 1-2 mons in many games with minimal effort. MVP.
Slowbro A -> A+ rank - Super good trapper & super fat. It can handle a good portion of fighting spam (Cobalion, Infernape, Lucario) and still maintain momentum with trapping and regenerator. This mon is incredibly good at trapping hazard setters and hazard removers that lack U-Turn (sometimes Gligar runs knock over u-turn). It's also great at trapping and crippling threats like Mega Aero, Cobalion, Amoonguss, and choice locked Latias & Terrakion. It can even take a u-turn from banded scizor and mega bee, as well as pursuit from banded scizor and scarf krookodile.
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 254-302 (64.4 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 232-276 (58.8 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And when it successfully traps a mon and manages to set up fully with a good amount of HP, it can even sweep a team due to CM boosted bulk and it's massive physical bulk.
Infernape A- -> A+ rank - Takes on every style of play with every set. It's never useless. Not many mons can boast this. Hard checks top threats in Bisharp and Scizor. Great forms of priority in mach punch + vacuum wave. Great ways of setting up physically or special through SD & Nasty Plot respectively. Incredibly difficult to scout, great at chipping checks/counters, and it's stats are near perfect for it's mobility. Only downfall is not enough bulk and 4MSS on special sets. (It's pretty funny though that it also has slack off and stealth rocks. It's like, "what doesn't this mon have?")
Kyurem A- -> B rank - Can't handle the meta that well. Fighting types and Scizors are everywhere. Scizor is on over 1/3 of teams. Fairies are a big problem and it has a tough time pressuring Blissey's recovery due to lack of power with it's substitute set. Does nothing to Primarina and allows it to just be a bigger threat than it already is. It's very weak to rocks, forcing it to roost up with sub sets or forcing it to be in the back with specs sets. A lot of the time you'll be doing doubles with this mon. It's easy to switch into for many teams (specs to a lesser extent) and it's hard to build with due to lack of defensive synergy because of ice typing.
Amoonguss B+ -> A- rank - Annoying mon that puts in work every game. It's not good at scoring KOs, sucks at it even. But, it's great at crippling teams for other mons to sweep. It can tank SE hits that are non-STAB (like fire blast from hydreigon) and can proceed to just spore or foul play or sludge bomb poison. A big hold back for this mon is 4MSS with sludge bomb or clear smog and foul play or HP fire. It's also incredibly weak and can be quite passive. Regenerator does allow it keep up in this fast paced VoltTurn Meta (it even soaks up t-spikes).
Suicune B+ -> A rank - Tough to build but hard to face. Suicune with rest-talk is hard to get damage on or even wear down, especially on heal bell teams (A.K.A. stall teams). It's also difficult to OHKO due to massive bulk on both sides w/ a solid HP stat. It has a tough time with VoltTurn teams due to lack of momentum but if played right, it can cripple VoltTurn through scald burns. It works against every playstyle (HO to a lesser extent) and usually puts in work through pressure or scald burns alone. Biggest problem is that it doesn't fit on that many teams due to the requirement of having back-up when it rests. And if it's Vincune then you need a good knock switch-in.
Zeroara B+ -> A- rank - A super fast mon that works a lot like Mega Aerodactyl. Mega Aero works best against crippled mons and Zeraora is pretty much the same in that respect due to it's high speed, great STAB, and great coverage in Close Combat + Grass Knot. Although Mega Aero is the fastest non-scarf mon in the tier, Zera does have volt-switch and knock off (for scarf mons) over it. It can even handle a weakened Latias better than Krook sometimes as it doesn't have to worry about 50/50s due to not needing scarf and if Cobalion comes in to take the knock, it can KO it with Z CC. A luring weakness it has is 4MSS in wanting to run bulk up, grass knot, HP ice, volt switch and knock off in combination with CC + PF.
Muk-Alola B -> C+ rank or lower - What does this mon check reliably? Starmie has scald, Gengar has sub shenanigans, Latias has z moves, and other special attackers just don't care about it. This mon is useless. It relies way too heavily on doubles to work efficiently. It's also way to easy to chip down.
Volcanion B -> B+ rank - Great check to a lot of top tier threats like Bisharp, Scizor, and Primarina. There are so many fat waters on teams that allow Volcanion to set up Subs & deal massive damage with it's 2 STABs. It's also not hard walled by water types due to sludge wave and z bloom doom. It's pretty east to wear down, it has a tough time scoring KOs against certain teams but, it is still useful against a decent portion of the meta without requiring too much support.
Tornadus B- -> B+ rank - Extremely fast at 111 base speed. Out speeding Latias and base 108s (so many of them). It has a hard hitting STAB in Hurricane and great coverage in sludge wave, super power, knock off, u-turn, and focus blast. A great niche it has over Moltres is it being able to wear down Blissey through super powers and stronger u-turn momentum. As well as being able to take rocks better.
Alright, so I just read throught he recent posts, and some of the noms tmacbalanced posts really stood out to me as.. kinda odd.
Hydreigon: S --> A+ Hard Disagree
I think you got some things about this pokemon wrong. Hydreigon is 100% on the same level as Latias and Scizor and for good reason. It has so many sets that it could run, and so many coverage options it makes it hard to predict as a pokemon. It's main stabs in Draco Meteor and Dark Pulse, with a plethora of options such as fire blast, focus blast, flash cannon, z-belch fairy lure, etc. This list could go on but these are the main points. Not only this, but utility such as taunt, roost, and defog means it can play many roles and fit on every playstyle from Stall to Offense. It's splashability is one reason its in this rank, but like mentioned before, with its access to so many moves makes it so versatile. It can run scarf with u-turn to get away from mons it wouldn't like, while still being able to revenge kill. While yes, it's speed tier is awkward and lets it be outsped by other mons such as scarf infernape and latias (scarf terrak is very very rare), these sets are seen much less than they are, and can be dealt with by pokemon on other teams. It can run roost 3 attacks, taunt+roost, basically roost to give it recovery and let it much more easily deal with mons it couldn't have before. Sure, it may need to win some 50/50's, but its not nearly as bad as say, Bisharp Sucker Punch mindgames, or a pursuit 50/50. It has so many ways to get around things, such as running focus blast to hit fighting types that try to switch in on dark pulse. It could run belch or flash cannon with a z-move to hit fairy types. And you are basing it a lot on Latias and Scizor, while both have their perks, when it comes to sets scizor is somewhat a close match. Latias has two main sets: Calm mind, and scarf (Scarf mainly being used on hyper offense). Calm mind is a great breaker, with z-electric being able to get past its checks, Drei can do that too. Lati is a scarfer with Healing Wish and Trick, Hydreigon has U-turn for Momentum. I can go on comparing these things but I think i've got my point across, the mix of moveset, splashability, and just overall versatility in the roles it can play justifies it's spot in S-rank along with Latias and Scizor.
Terrakion: A+ --> S Disagree
This nomination has been made before, and from what I see, while it is one of the most terrifying breakers, I do not personally think it deserves S rank. In your Hydreigon post you mention versatility and Terrakion just isn't that. It has two main sets: Choice Band, and SD+Z-move (With maybe a third in offensive rocker). To point this out early: Scarf isn't that good. While it can be used to revenge kill, it'd mediocore defensive typing and the payoff of speed vs. power just isn't worth it to me. It can be easily revenge killed by the best mon in the tier (Scizor), with the loss in power a lot more things have the ability to check it, and overall its very mediocore for what it's supposed to revenge kill. With the common knowledge that the two moves it will click is either Close Combat or Stone Edge (if SD) and EQ (if banded), it just shows that if the right call is made, a 50/50, then it the hit can be taken and then the game moves on. Terrakion is also hard to bring in at times, typically needing VoltTurn support or a correct prediction (or switched in freely due to a mon dying). There's plenty of checks to it, both defensive and offensive. Give an example to doublade, a mon that is on the right due to the prevelence of fighting types that can easily switch in on Terrak and deal with it, showing the meta is adapting to it. While suspect is a debate, it's an extremely scary mon but there are just downsides to it, and I think a lot of these downsides, bad defensive typing, predictable moveset, and overall leaves it to the user to decide how useful it will be (Due to some of the points mentioned before)
Primarina: A+ --> S Hard Disagree
You really like to nominate S ranks don't you? Aside from this, your Prim nomination goes against almost all of your noms before saying versatility is super important. Prim is not versatile either. It has two common sets: Choice Specs, and Bulky RestTalk. That's it. Yeah, there are sets such as work up being explored but i won't get into this, like Terrakion, its a terrifying breaker with Specs, along with the coverage it needs to beat some checks such as psychic to hit Amoonguss and Tentacruel. Though what is a problem is its abysmal speed. 60 base speed isn't that impressive, and leads it to be easily revenge killed by Pokemon faster than it. It has good special defense with a mediocre defense, only really that good with investment. It also has to choose between running speed or running bulk, which is another point. Specs can get easily worn down by hazards and status which leaves it more open to revenge kill based on that. It's Bulky set also has problems, while sustainability is fixed, it cannot break teams anymore, and can be a bit of a sitting duck at times. Scald burns are nice, but for example: let's say a :atias switches in and starts calm mind-ing, Moonblast wont be able to kill anymore unless it crits. It also leaves it's defensive checks able to defog, spin, do whatever they want to freely due to not having the coverage to hit them anymore. Primarina is a great mon, Specs is a terrifying to switch into and deal with while bulky can blanket check a lot of mons, but it really doesn't have much else besides that. I don't ever see it being on the same level as the top 3 right now.
Altaria-Mega: A --> S Disagree A --> A+ though, Agree
Now, I like this mon, and from where it was before it has definitely made a bit of a resurgence from before. With many viable sets in DD, Mixed, Defog (mainly on stall), and probably a few others i'm missing, it definitely is versatile. Not to mention its amazing typing in dragon/fairy which is just incredible, mix that with great bulk and it really has a lot of things going for it. DD lets it boost its speed and outspeed a majority, lacking to hit benchmarks such as Mega Aero and some scarfers. Though it does have to choose between what it wants to do. Does it want to use great coverage in its return(fairy due to ability) + EQ to hit a lot of the meta, or does it want to deal with water types, and fatter teams with the help of refresh to get rid of status? If it chooses the first option, great, it can deal with most things bar scizor and amoonguss (both of which can beat this set), and choosing refresh leaves it walled by a lot more, needing its teammates to patch this up. It can be a great late game cleaner if its checks are dealt with, but it will never outright sweep on its own. Next i'll talk about mixed, which in my opinion is a very potent set, hyper voice(or moonblast if you are that scared of Kommo-o) + Fire Blast + EQ hits almost everything. This has the ability to get past Amoonguss, and Scizor, and a lot of other sets but it is highly prediction heavy: to not be forced out by Scizor you have to either stay in non-mega to be neutral to BP, or predict and Fire Blast on a switch in. Same kind of deal with Amoonguss. This isn't as bothered by the need for speed, and can run bulk as well. A big thing you mention is Scizor, how its only weak to this, the thing is, the metal bug is the best mon in the tier, and can easily come in and stop Dragon Dance sets, and you really undersell its prevalence. You also forget about Mamoswine's Ice Shard but that's another story. Another thing with both of these: besides the mixed set, something i didn't mention before is DD alt struggles to break bulky steels, and there are plenty. Scizor, Aggron, Doublade, Steelix, all can easily beat it even with +1, and it is most scary due to being unsure if mixed or not. Once you learn this, it becomes much more easily to deal with. While I don't disagree that Altaria is a great mon in the current meta, i'm not sure if enough has changed for it to belong in S rank, when there is still so much that can deal with it. Like others such as Moute, MysticalHaze, and Twilight said, it fits much better in A+ unlike S rank. I do agree with a raise, but not as much as tmac has suggested.
These are the main points I wanted to hit and are the ones that are most shocking to say, so many S rank nominations. But i'll also touch on some more nominations from the the post I focused on and others.
Slowbro: A -- > A+ Disagree
I'm not really sure what has changed for slowbro that has made it got better, also you only focus on one set. While slowbro is a fantastic blanket check to a lot of fighting types, and pokemon of the tier, it can be set up bait for some of the tiers best mons. Latias and Hydreigon laugh at it unless it has Thunder Wave or Ice Beam, Scizor does huge chunks of damage (Though susceptible to burn), Altaria with refresh takes advantage of it, Sharpedo eats it up, Celebi, Manectric, Zeraora (you get the point). Along with that, it also has calm mind while more uncommon, it is still usable. It can deal with a lot of pokemon but I don't see enough of what changed for it that makes it deserve a rise.
Doublade: B+ --> A- Agree
This mon is great right now. I pretty much agree with what most everyone has said, checks many of the fighting types of the tier, along with a nice check to Latias, fairies, etc etc. This is great, can find a spot on offense and balance even. Good mon, raise it.
Steelix-Mega: B --> B+ Agree
This is definately on par with its steel mega brother Aggron. Its one of the few counters to Latias, including the Z-electric check, checks a lot of things super well, especially with both a defensive and offensive set option, it just leaves it in a great spot due to the added ground typing, although a worse ability.
Krookodile: A+ --> A Disagree
The cool croc is great. Yeah, it has two main sets, but scarf is amazing. Fast, strong pursuit, and knock off leaves it with two powerful utility, its ground typing allows it to be immune to volt switch, intimidate to cripple physical attackers, its the perfect mix of offense and defense that gives it a spot on so many teams. Don't drop it.
I've made a lot of points so here are just some short agree/disagree points.
Gengar: Raise to B+
Empoleon: Drop to A
Kyurem: Drop to B+
Suicune: Stay B+ or even drop it
Infernape: Stay A-
Moltres: Can agree with a rise
That's all, thanks for reading everyone ^.^
Hydreigon: S --> A+ Hard Disagree
I think you got some things about this pokemon wrong. Hydreigon is 100% on the same level as Latias and Scizor and for good reason. It has so many sets that it could run, and so many coverage options it makes it hard to predict as a pokemon. It's main stabs in Draco Meteor and Dark Pulse, with a plethora of options such as fire blast, focus blast, flash cannon, z-belch fairy lure, etc. This list could go on but these are the main points. Not only this, but utility such as taunt, roost, and defog means it can play many roles and fit on every playstyle from Stall to Offense. It's splashability is one reason its in this rank, but like mentioned before, with its access to so many moves makes it so versatile. It can run scarf with u-turn to get away from mons it wouldn't like, while still being able to revenge kill. While yes, it's speed tier is awkward and lets it be outsped by other mons such as scarf infernape and latias (scarf terrak is very very rare), these sets are seen much less than they are, and can be dealt with by pokemon on other teams. It can run roost 3 attacks, taunt+roost, basically roost to give it recovery and let it much more easily deal with mons it couldn't have before. Sure, it may need to win some 50/50's, but its not nearly as bad as say, Bisharp Sucker Punch mindgames, or a pursuit 50/50. It has so many ways to get around things, such as running focus blast to hit fighting types that try to switch in on dark pulse. It could run belch or flash cannon with a z-move to hit fairy types. And you are basing it a lot on Latias and Scizor, while both have their perks, when it comes to sets scizor is somewhat a close match. Latias has two main sets: Calm mind, and scarf (Scarf mainly being used on hyper offense). Calm mind is a great breaker, with z-electric being able to get past its checks, Drei can do that too. Lati is a scarfer with Healing Wish and Trick, Hydreigon has U-turn for Momentum. I can go on comparing these things but I think i've got my point across, the mix of moveset, splashability, and just overall versatility in the roles it can play justifies it's spot in S-rank along with Latias and Scizor.
Terrakion: A+ --> S Disagree
This nomination has been made before, and from what I see, while it is one of the most terrifying breakers, I do not personally think it deserves S rank. In your Hydreigon post you mention versatility and Terrakion just isn't that. It has two main sets: Choice Band, and SD+Z-move (With maybe a third in offensive rocker). To point this out early: Scarf isn't that good. While it can be used to revenge kill, it'd mediocore defensive typing and the payoff of speed vs. power just isn't worth it to me. It can be easily revenge killed by the best mon in the tier (Scizor), with the loss in power a lot more things have the ability to check it, and overall its very mediocore for what it's supposed to revenge kill. With the common knowledge that the two moves it will click is either Close Combat or Stone Edge (if SD) and EQ (if banded), it just shows that if the right call is made, a 50/50, then it the hit can be taken and then the game moves on. Terrakion is also hard to bring in at times, typically needing VoltTurn support or a correct prediction (or switched in freely due to a mon dying). There's plenty of checks to it, both defensive and offensive. Give an example to doublade, a mon that is on the right due to the prevelence of fighting types that can easily switch in on Terrak and deal with it, showing the meta is adapting to it. While suspect is a debate, it's an extremely scary mon but there are just downsides to it, and I think a lot of these downsides, bad defensive typing, predictable moveset, and overall leaves it to the user to decide how useful it will be (Due to some of the points mentioned before)
Primarina: A+ --> S Hard Disagree
You really like to nominate S ranks don't you? Aside from this, your Prim nomination goes against almost all of your noms before saying versatility is super important. Prim is not versatile either. It has two common sets: Choice Specs, and Bulky RestTalk. That's it. Yeah, there are sets such as work up being explored but i won't get into this, like Terrakion, its a terrifying breaker with Specs, along with the coverage it needs to beat some checks such as psychic to hit Amoonguss and Tentacruel. Though what is a problem is its abysmal speed. 60 base speed isn't that impressive, and leads it to be easily revenge killed by Pokemon faster than it. It has good special defense with a mediocre defense, only really that good with investment. It also has to choose between running speed or running bulk, which is another point. Specs can get easily worn down by hazards and status which leaves it more open to revenge kill based on that. It's Bulky set also has problems, while sustainability is fixed, it cannot break teams anymore, and can be a bit of a sitting duck at times. Scald burns are nice, but for example: let's say a :atias switches in and starts calm mind-ing, Moonblast wont be able to kill anymore unless it crits. It also leaves it's defensive checks able to defog, spin, do whatever they want to freely due to not having the coverage to hit them anymore. Primarina is a great mon, Specs is a terrifying to switch into and deal with while bulky can blanket check a lot of mons, but it really doesn't have much else besides that. I don't ever see it being on the same level as the top 3 right now.
Altaria-Mega: A --> S Disagree A --> A+ though, Agree
Now, I like this mon, and from where it was before it has definitely made a bit of a resurgence from before. With many viable sets in DD, Mixed, Defog (mainly on stall), and probably a few others i'm missing, it definitely is versatile. Not to mention its amazing typing in dragon/fairy which is just incredible, mix that with great bulk and it really has a lot of things going for it. DD lets it boost its speed and outspeed a majority, lacking to hit benchmarks such as Mega Aero and some scarfers. Though it does have to choose between what it wants to do. Does it want to use great coverage in its return(fairy due to ability) + EQ to hit a lot of the meta, or does it want to deal with water types, and fatter teams with the help of refresh to get rid of status? If it chooses the first option, great, it can deal with most things bar scizor and amoonguss (both of which can beat this set), and choosing refresh leaves it walled by a lot more, needing its teammates to patch this up. It can be a great late game cleaner if its checks are dealt with, but it will never outright sweep on its own. Next i'll talk about mixed, which in my opinion is a very potent set, hyper voice(or moonblast if you are that scared of Kommo-o) + Fire Blast + EQ hits almost everything. This has the ability to get past Amoonguss, and Scizor, and a lot of other sets but it is highly prediction heavy: to not be forced out by Scizor you have to either stay in non-mega to be neutral to BP, or predict and Fire Blast on a switch in. Same kind of deal with Amoonguss. This isn't as bothered by the need for speed, and can run bulk as well. A big thing you mention is Scizor, how its only weak to this, the thing is, the metal bug is the best mon in the tier, and can easily come in and stop Dragon Dance sets, and you really undersell its prevalence. You also forget about Mamoswine's Ice Shard but that's another story. Another thing with both of these: besides the mixed set, something i didn't mention before is DD alt struggles to break bulky steels, and there are plenty. Scizor, Aggron, Doublade, Steelix, all can easily beat it even with +1, and it is most scary due to being unsure if mixed or not. Once you learn this, it becomes much more easily to deal with. While I don't disagree that Altaria is a great mon in the current meta, i'm not sure if enough has changed for it to belong in S rank, when there is still so much that can deal with it. Like others such as Moute, MysticalHaze, and Twilight said, it fits much better in A+ unlike S rank. I do agree with a raise, but not as much as tmac has suggested.
These are the main points I wanted to hit and are the ones that are most shocking to say, so many S rank nominations. But i'll also touch on some more nominations from the the post I focused on and others.
Slowbro: A -- > A+ Disagree
I'm not really sure what has changed for slowbro that has made it got better, also you only focus on one set. While slowbro is a fantastic blanket check to a lot of fighting types, and pokemon of the tier, it can be set up bait for some of the tiers best mons. Latias and Hydreigon laugh at it unless it has Thunder Wave or Ice Beam, Scizor does huge chunks of damage (Though susceptible to burn), Altaria with refresh takes advantage of it, Sharpedo eats it up, Celebi, Manectric, Zeraora (you get the point). Along with that, it also has calm mind while more uncommon, it is still usable. It can deal with a lot of pokemon but I don't see enough of what changed for it that makes it deserve a rise.
Doublade: B+ --> A- Agree
This mon is great right now. I pretty much agree with what most everyone has said, checks many of the fighting types of the tier, along with a nice check to Latias, fairies, etc etc. This is great, can find a spot on offense and balance even. Good mon, raise it.
Steelix-Mega: B --> B+ Agree
This is definately on par with its steel mega brother Aggron. Its one of the few counters to Latias, including the Z-electric check, checks a lot of things super well, especially with both a defensive and offensive set option, it just leaves it in a great spot due to the added ground typing, although a worse ability.
Krookodile: A+ --> A Disagree
The cool croc is great. Yeah, it has two main sets, but scarf is amazing. Fast, strong pursuit, and knock off leaves it with two powerful utility, its ground typing allows it to be immune to volt switch, intimidate to cripple physical attackers, its the perfect mix of offense and defense that gives it a spot on so many teams. Don't drop it.
I've made a lot of points so here are just some short agree/disagree points.
Gengar: Raise to B+
Empoleon: Drop to A
Kyurem: Drop to B+
Suicune: Stay B+ or even drop it
Infernape: Stay A-
Moltres: Can agree with a rise
That's all, thanks for reading everyone ^.^
Last edited:
So let me talk about some noms here:
Kyurem to B+: Probably
Kyurem has always been a good pokemon in UU, but of course, it has its flaws. tbh, none of its defenses are very good. I mean, they're okay, but not good. Its speed also is just average, leaving it to be outsped and KO'd by quite a lot of offensive threats, namely, Hydreigon, Cobalion, and the all-popular Terrakion. It faces a lot of comeptition from the resident dragon-types in the metagame, such as Kommo-o, Mega Altaria, Latias, and Hydreigon as they provide more defensive utility with their typings. However, they have problems of their own. Kommo-o's typing is wonderful, but that just leaves it to be Togekiss fodder. Mega Altaria finds itself in a large dilemma as well, its typing is Scizor bait. Latias doesn't want ANYTHING Krookodile. And Hydreigon... it's Togekiss bait. In fact, Kyurem has some edges over them: while it's weak to Scizor, Cobalion, and Terrakion, if we put that aside, it can threaten some of its typical checks, such as Togekiss and Mega Altaria, to name a few. However, Kyurem can really only check a small amount of pokemon, while the aforementioned dragon-types can check a larger variety of pokemon. This meta really has turned the tables on Kyurem as of now, and I think it's a good time to drop it.
Gastrodon to C: No comment
Tell you what, I'm not gonna respond to this guy as it's new to UU and all. However, I do agree with a rise, but really only to C.
Doublade to A-: Definitely! Who wouldn't say yes?
I agree with all of what MysticalHaze said about rising Doublade. It's great on HO, BO, and Balance. Yep. 3. Seperate. Playstyles. While it is an NFE, and like what the oracle says, NFEs need Eviolites, and that makes them vulnerable to Knock Off, Doublade has great physical bulk and attack alike. While it is kinda slow and doesn't have good special defense or HP, it's great against a lot of fighting-type spam. It's a great physical gluemon that blows through unprepared teams after SD, like a sword. And a pokemon that I myself alongside a lot of others think should rise.
Some other noms I wanted to talk about (Keeping it short):
Suicune: Fine where it is, shouldn't drop or rise at the moment.
Moltres: Definitely, should rise to A.
Empoleon: Drop it to A, maybe even A- if needed.
Steelix: Absolutely, should rise to B+.
Mega Pidgeot: Fine where it is, no need to drop or rise it.
Swampert: Drop this thing to C+, maybe even C or C-. Either way, drop it.
Chandelure: Drop this to B- or C+, maybe even to UR. Either way, drop it.
Chesnaught: Not really, though I agree with the reasoning.
Kyurem to B+: Probably
Kyurem has always been a good pokemon in UU, but of course, it has its flaws. tbh, none of its defenses are very good. I mean, they're okay, but not good. Its speed also is just average, leaving it to be outsped and KO'd by quite a lot of offensive threats, namely, Hydreigon, Cobalion, and the all-popular Terrakion. It faces a lot of comeptition from the resident dragon-types in the metagame, such as Kommo-o, Mega Altaria, Latias, and Hydreigon as they provide more defensive utility with their typings. However, they have problems of their own. Kommo-o's typing is wonderful, but that just leaves it to be Togekiss fodder. Mega Altaria finds itself in a large dilemma as well, its typing is Scizor bait. Latias doesn't want ANYTHING Krookodile. And Hydreigon... it's Togekiss bait. In fact, Kyurem has some edges over them: while it's weak to Scizor, Cobalion, and Terrakion, if we put that aside, it can threaten some of its typical checks, such as Togekiss and Mega Altaria, to name a few. However, Kyurem can really only check a small amount of pokemon, while the aforementioned dragon-types can check a larger variety of pokemon. This meta really has turned the tables on Kyurem as of now, and I think it's a good time to drop it.
Gastrodon to C: No comment
Tell you what, I'm not gonna respond to this guy as it's new to UU and all. However, I do agree with a rise, but really only to C.
Doublade to A-: Definitely! Who wouldn't say yes?
I agree with all of what MysticalHaze said about rising Doublade. It's great on HO, BO, and Balance. Yep. 3. Seperate. Playstyles. While it is an NFE, and like what the oracle says, NFEs need Eviolites, and that makes them vulnerable to Knock Off, Doublade has great physical bulk and attack alike. While it is kinda slow and doesn't have good special defense or HP, it's great against a lot of fighting-type spam. It's a great physical gluemon that blows through unprepared teams after SD, like a sword. And a pokemon that I myself alongside a lot of others think should rise.
Some other noms I wanted to talk about (Keeping it short):
Suicune: Fine where it is, shouldn't drop or rise at the moment.
Moltres: Definitely, should rise to A.
Empoleon: Drop it to A, maybe even A- if needed.
Steelix: Absolutely, should rise to B+.
Mega Pidgeot: Fine where it is, no need to drop or rise it.
Swampert: Drop this thing to C+, maybe even C or C-. Either way, drop it.
Chandelure: Drop this to B- or C+, maybe even to UR. Either way, drop it.
Chesnaught: Not really, though I agree with the reasoning.
Last edited:
A lot of this post is pretty wrong, but I want to discuss about this point specifically as this argument made for Suicune is theoretical at best and is just outright wrong at worst. Suicune is overall a trap for many players because it appears to be a far better mon on paper than in practice. Suicune can be a decent wincon for bulkier teams given the right support but setting up can be so counterintuitive at moments as you will often invite opposing set-up sweepers like DD M-Alt and some carry Facade to completely invalidate any of Status’s remaining worth, Latias who is using Electrium but even if it’s the normal Calm Mind Dragonium set it still beats Suicune in the Calm Mind War, and Celebi which lol a big loss for Suicune. Also some of your points seem to be hurting Suicune rather than making a case for a rise with your only true reason being, “Oh it’s got bulk and it can sweep shit might as well warrant a rise!” Suicune pretty much sucks in the HO mu between getting unnecessary chip from multiple hazards, having minimal opportunities to set-up, getting taunted multiple times to prevent set-up, and getting worn down seriously easy by using it to take multiple physical blows from the juggernauts of HO (Vincune is even worse against it). Suicune is still a B+ mon imo since it can be pretty damn good with Toxic Spikes support but the A ranks are far out of its reach by now.
Katy
Banned deucer.
Hydreigon down to A+ Disagree
Hydreigon should not drop because it is one of the most versatile and most splashable mons in the tier.
Its high amount of sets it can run with being scarf, specs, Z-Dark / Z-Dragon, Roost, Defog, U-Turn (for momentum)
and good coverage options in Flash Cannon, Flamethrower, Fire Blast and Earth Power.
It's also able to catch its enemies in Primarina off guard with the rare Z-Belch one time nuke.
It provides a decent bulk too with 92/90/90 and also a good speed tier with 98 as well as being only neutral affected by Stealth Rocks,
since Levitate provides it also Immunity to Spikes and T-Spikes.
I don't think Hydreigon should drop because of the points stated above, Hydreigon stay S Rank.
Primarina up to S Disagree
Primarina has only 2 good sets at UU being specs and the defensive one, both are still vulnerable to hazard stacks in Rocks + Spikes.
Its low speed leaves it also vulnerable to faster attackers and with Grass Types like Celebi and Amoonguss and bulky waters like Suicune, Tentacruel and Volcanion (with Volcanion resisting Moonblast and Water Absorb nullifying the water moves)
it has a hard time to break through fatter teams.
HO / Offense still has a hard time switching into Specs Primarina, but that doesnt justify in my opinion a rise to S rank.
Other Pokémon I AGREE on:
Mega Altaria to A+
Mega Steelix to B+
Doublade to A-
Crobat to C+
Uxie to UR
Cofagrigus to C-
Hydreigon should not drop because it is one of the most versatile and most splashable mons in the tier.
Its high amount of sets it can run with being scarf, specs, Z-Dark / Z-Dragon, Roost, Defog, U-Turn (for momentum)
and good coverage options in Flash Cannon, Flamethrower, Fire Blast and Earth Power.
It's also able to catch its enemies in Primarina off guard with the rare Z-Belch one time nuke.
It provides a decent bulk too with 92/90/90 and also a good speed tier with 98 as well as being only neutral affected by Stealth Rocks,
since Levitate provides it also Immunity to Spikes and T-Spikes.
I don't think Hydreigon should drop because of the points stated above, Hydreigon stay S Rank.
Primarina up to S Disagree
Primarina has only 2 good sets at UU being specs and the defensive one, both are still vulnerable to hazard stacks in Rocks + Spikes.
Its low speed leaves it also vulnerable to faster attackers and with Grass Types like Celebi and Amoonguss and bulky waters like Suicune, Tentacruel and Volcanion (with Volcanion resisting Moonblast and Water Absorb nullifying the water moves)
it has a hard time to break through fatter teams.
HO / Offense still has a hard time switching into Specs Primarina, but that doesnt justify in my opinion a rise to S rank.
Other Pokémon I AGREE on:
Mega Altaria to A+
Mega Steelix to B+
Doublade to A-
Crobat to C+
Uxie to UR
Cofagrigus to C-
I strongly disagree with Doublade rising to A-. It may seem like a swiss knife being able to check a lot of mon while also being threatening offensively but it actually needs support for both. It lacks recovery which makes it pretty wish reliant and on top of that it doesn't put much pressure since most teams have a bulky water / bulky ground that can switch on it with ease and when it's not the case it needs to predict correctly when the dark type is coming and has a lot of trouble sweeping as most teams have a dark type. I don't think it's bad, it comes in really handy against Offense that use Lucario/Cobalion/Terrakion and it's really solid paired with a wish passer but it has a lot of bad match-ups and his defensive abilities shouldn't be too much counted on so that's why it doesn't deserve to be A- imo.
Empoleon A+ -> A : Agree
It's able to switch on very threatening mons like Primarina and Moltres and then spread toxic/burn or setup/remove hazards but it often has to fear coverage like Thunder(bolt) on Latias and Nihilego, Z-Fighting on Togekiss, Hydreigon or Scizor and it cannot switch on most stealth rock setters so it's not that realiable
as a defogger.
Empoleon A+ -> A : Agree
It's able to switch on very threatening mons like Primarina and Moltres and then spread toxic/burn or setup/remove hazards but it often has to fear coverage like Thunder(bolt) on Latias and Nihilego, Z-Fighting on Togekiss, Hydreigon or Scizor and it cannot switch on most stealth rock setters so it's not that realiable
as a defogger.
Honestly, I was getting super tired when I reached Suicune. That post was a long one.
Here's the thing, Suicune is actually better in practice and worse on paper. On paper, all you can think is, "rest messes me up big time." All you can think about is momentum drain. But, in practice you realize that it shrugs off many attacks and manages to be a massive annoyance throughout the game.
Mega Altaria - Now here's the thing, DD M-Alt needs Facade or Refresh to beat it. And those sets aren't 100% common. A lot of stall sets on M-Alt are spammed (pif, hjhk-something guy, and other popular stall players that I can't remember). There's Frustration + EQ sets for Steel Types and instant damage. There's also, defog sets and special sets. So, Suicune loses to 2/6 sets.
Latias - A lot of the times people run scarf too, not just CM. There's also defog and trick sets. Latias is definitely an annoyance but, it can be hard Pressured a lot of the times by Vincune sets (still lose though). Latias definitely hard checks/counters with Z sets but, it can be heavily weakened in the process. But, if Latias is scarf, then Latias can lose pretty hard.
Celebi - Not really a big loss. It all depends on the set. If it's a passive set then, Suicune can win the match-up.
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Of course, if it's offensive, then Suicune loses. But why would you try to set up a water type on an offensive grass type?
Yes, some of my points would look like they are hurting the nom. But, not 100%. If you read more carefully, I talk about how Suicune has ways around a couple of it's weaknesses. And yes, there are way too many hard hitters right now. Z-Moves don't help either. But, Suicune can still keep up. Also, why do people mention hazards so much? Hazard removers, like gligar, are on the rise. And people can't advocate Moltres to go to A rank while saying, "Hazards are everywhere! Even this mono water type gets recked by them!" Okay, then so does Moltres and it should drop in rankings.
Thanks though, I knew there were a few holes in some of my noms. I was just too tired to fix them.
Okay, I knew someone was going to try and defend Hydreigon. It's a fan favorite.
Hydreigon is not really all that versatile. You see, if you try to adapt to one set, you lose to a whole bunch of other sets. Take for instance the set you mentioned in Z-Belch. Lacks speed so, it loses to a lot of fast mons in the tier flat out. Like Latias, Infernape, Mega Bee, Mega Aero (depending on the set), Mega Sceptile, and Terrakion. Not only that, but it gives up momentum in U-Turn. Z-Belch is a one time only thing so, if you mis-predict then it is getting stomped by fairies now. It's bulk in stats are good, too bad it's typing is not good defensively. x4 weak to fairy, x2 weak to Dragon + Ice + Fighting + Bug. Fairy types are everywhere, Latias is on nearly 1/4 of teams, Scizor is on over a 1/3 of teams, VoltTurn is common, Terrakion is broken, Infernape is a fantastic mon right now, Fighting Spam is talked about a lot (reason for Doublade & Gligar rise), and Mamoswine is super good right now. Not only that, but many mons run coverage for dark types in general (not just for Hydreigon). Like Gengar with Focus Blast (super good for Krook & Empoleon). And the speed tier is decent but it's not good, it relies on scarf heavily.
It's also not that splashable. Latias, Scizor, Terrakion, and Primarina are very splashable though. Hydreigon is for the risky types due to it's massive weaknesses.
Seriously, why is everyone talking hazards yet want hazard weak mons to rise? Toxic spikes? Amoongus, Gengar, A-Muk, Nidoking, and Tentacruel can absorb them. Spikes? Who setting them up? Stealth Rocks? Why raise Moltres then? I just don't get it. Anyway, onto the other stuff.
Now here's the thing, Primarina actually has quite a few good sets. Metronome isn't that good (really only good against stall or very fat teams). Still though, it has more than 2 sets. Primarina does run psychic on Specs and can wear down Volcanion through coverage. And if you manage to keep hazards up then, it has an even easier time to pull it off due to Volcanion being weak to rocks. Tentacruel also gets worn down or outright loses to psychic. The thing with Celebi is that it has a tough time coming in on Moonblast (especially with the chance of dropping the SpAtk stat). Suicune is definitely a problem but if it's Vincune then it can't switch in.
Thank you kindly for your polite disagreements. I enjoyed reading your entire post.
Last one: Draconic Lupis. Wow, you responded to many of my noms. Thanks. Not going to quote the entire post, it'd be too big.
Hydreigon: No, I didn't get anything wrong with it. It's a tough mon to use due to what's popular in the meta. I don't see why it should be S if it has these problems. Utility on Hydregion is hard to pull off and U-Turn is needed or else it falls short. Yeah, it has defog and taunt. Doesn't work well when so many mons can OHKO it. You also have to rely heavily on bluffing Scarf. Which is tough to pull off when you see that the type of teams scarf and defog sets fit on are very different. The versatility that people talk of when it comes to Hydreigon really does get talked up a lot. Here's the thing, each set has many weaknesses. It's basically choose what you beat while choosing what you get beaten by. Choice Scarf is it's best because of U-Turn momentum and how the extra instant speed gives it leverage against a lot of the fast mons in the meta that can easily OHKO it. Basically, Scarf has the least amount of weaknesses. Also, recovering with roost on Hydreigon is a much worse 50/50 mindgame than Bisharp's Sucker Punch. Most mons can OHKO you. With Bisharp, it's doing the OHKO'ing. Not only that but, there's a lot more reward than risk with it. Roost up 50% to risk getting OHKO'd again by popular threats or sweep. Sorry, just didn't like the comparison. You definitely hit the hammer on the nail though by talking about how Hydreigon is full of 50/50s. No doubt, it does against most of the meta. That's why it should drop.
Primarina: You're talking about hazards too? On a water/fairy type? Oh welp. Primarina is actually very versatile. Don't know why people are saying it isn't. It has ways of beating it's checks & counters without sacrificing too much of what makes it good in the process. That's versatile. It's even been tested by good players. I tried out every set and enjoyed 'em. True, it has slow speed. But, not many faster mons easily revenge this mon. It's hard due to it's typing and bulk. Latias, Hydreigon, Infernape, Terrakion, Mega Aerodactyl, Scizor, and so many neutral hitters have trouble pulling it off. That's actually what makes Primarina an S class threat, it's tough to nab. Once Primarina is in a lot of the times the player will have to use a mon as death fodder or stay in to get necessary chip. That's the type of monster Primarina is. It's also a great blanket check to much of the tier, including the S ranks and a lot of the A ranks.
Terrakion: It centralizes the entire meta around it. It has 0 counters. And it's super tough to check. Terrakion is stronger than Latias, Scizor, Hydreigon, Primarina, and Mega Altaria. It's the biggest threat out there. That's why people wanted a suspect testing in November & December. It's the biggest offensive threat right now bar none.
Mega Altaria: It's a better Hydreigon, change my mind. Mega Altaria pulls off roost and defog better due to better bulk and typing. Pulls off taking on Blissey better due to being able to go full physical. Mega Altaria pulls off bopping would-be checks/counters better than Hydreigon due to the fact it can use those moves over and over again while still being a threat to most of the mons it's supposed to still check and being a threat to most of the tier. Mega-Altaria has better ways of taking on bad typing match-ups than Hydreigon. It's a better Hydreigon. The big thing about why Mega-Altaria should be S rank is the fact is extremely easy to function on any team and it's very difficult to predict. Takes a lot of scouting. A lot of what you said ended up agreeing with my points, so I dunno why you stepped up to plate to disagree with me on this nom.
Slowbro: I only talked about one set because that's only set I need to talk about. It's trapping is very dangerous. Hydreigon and Latias don't shrug off Slowbro once it's done trapping and manages to get to +6 in SpAtk & SpDf. It's actually difficult for them to check it. The fact that it can trap a myriad of common mons and manage to set up on them to max/max is very strong. Also, in trapping it allows in other mons to sweep easier. Now here's the thing, you talked about checks but you miss the point of the nom in the first place. It's the trapping aspect is what makes it dangerous.
Krookodile: You didn't say much. Might as well just said: "I disagree" and left it at that. I went very in-depth as to defeat the points you've made in your post as I knew someone would make them. Please respect that. It's also not the perfect mix of offense and defense. A lot of physical attackers hit it for big damage or KO flat out. Mega Beedrill, Infernape, Zeroara, Mega Aero, Kommo-O, Altaria-Mega, Cobalion, Doublade, Terrakion, Crawdaunt, Heracross and Haxorus. That's almost all the relevant physical hitters. And it has trouble checking what it wants to check as I've said in my previous post. Also, Krook should not be used a volt switch blocker. It's extremely dangerous as Rotom-Heat and Mega Mane can do easy big damage to it on the switch, meaning easy KO with little chip.
I'm taking a break from posting here. Oof. Huge time waster. I'm going to be very busy too. Anyway, it was nice debating with people.
While I mostly agree, let me put a finger on a couple of things you said that threw me off.
Slowbro: While I agree that trapping is really good at the moment for it, taunt can easily beat it, its trapped by krook, and sciz is able to u-turn for up to 76% on max hp and defense slowbro. It is a fun set that can beat stall, but it is risky in the current meta.
Terrakion: While I do agree terrakion is a menace, it is not overtly centralizing in my opinion. Its weak to MANY common things in the meta such as Sciz and Lati, and CB allows doublade to setup and potentially sweep your team. Again, a very real threat but it is checked by a lot in the meta. (I forgot to mention glig, how dare I.)
Primarina: While I do agree with other examples, I would remove Lati as something that has trouble. As im sure you know, z-thunder is a popular set on lati rn, and is extremely threatening (which is why mega lix is used.) Even at neutral with no modest, lati has a 81% chance to ohko with z-thunder, and has a garunteed kill after rocks or a boost. Primarina is very threatening but not S material.
Mega Altaria: While an amazingly splashable and effective mon, I dont feel that it is S material. It has many sets popping up, such as dd-refresh, defensive, and others you mentioned, but it loses quite a few important matchups, such as Sciz if malt isnt defensive (still takes upwards to 73%), Mamo, Nihi if it is dd-refresh, and the newly rising doublade if it isnt running fire blast.
By all means refute my points if they dont make sense, I would love to have a debate on this. Peace out dude ^w^
(Yo, I'm back to give some of my thoughts on the discussion points. I'll make this quick [edit: haha NAH])
Discussion Points
Swampert / Pidgeot-Mega
B- → C+ - Whole Lotta Red
Really confused as to why these two are about to drop to C+ --- it's not like UU's C+ rank is comprised of trash but even still I feel like these two have a lot more to offer than the other C+ ranked 'mons. Swampert has the CB set that's been gaining favor with the people for a good while now, and as a Stealth Rocker it beats three of the tier's best most popular removers in Rotom-H, Tentacruel, and Empoleon (Scald can be a bitch though). A lot of the tier's top breakers are unkind to 'Pert, but being a solid check to M-Aero and keeping up rocks is always going to be appreciated, in my eyes at least.
Onto M-Pidg, and it's pretty much more of the same. Moltres is seeing by far more usage at this point, as it should be thanks to its superior defensive typing & role it can play --- this doesn't completely overshadow what little niche M-Pidgeot still has though. A base 121 speed stat allows it to outspeed some of the tier's most prominent threats in Infernape, Latias, and Terrakion, potentially scaring them out and gaining some momentum with U-Turn. And while M-Pidg isn't all that versatile it can still switch it up. Simply put, these two should NOT drop below fuckin' Crobat.
Gligar
B+ → A- - Nah
This 'mon is a pretty solid pick in our current metagame, given how much utility it can provide to one's team while performing its Hazard Control role in either SR or Defog. Thanks to moves like U-Turn and Knock Off (maybe even Taunt, not gonna catch me usin' it though) it's not a completely passive piece of shit, and can even prevent shit like M-Alt or SD Scizor from doing too much damage thanks to Curse. All of that plus a pretty nice ability in Immunity (not as good as Poison Heal though!) make for a pretty good Balance/BO pick. While I acknowledge all of this, Gligar is still helplessly passive and its lame damage output is ultimately a come up for a lot of the tier's popular breaker's and set-up 'mons including Primarina, Latias, Togekiss, Slowbro + Slowbro-Mega, Kyurem, SD Sciz and Altaria-Mega (non-Curse variants).
Rotom-Heat / Infernape
A- → A - Nah & Yah++!
Having these two on the same slate for A is very questionable because Rotom-H does not have as many things going for it as Infernape does at the moment. Rotom-H's defensive presence and utility in Defog can patch up a couple of issues in the teambuilder and that's always appreciated, but Infernape's nice 104 / 104 / 108 offensively-based statline opens up more options for it. Physical sets in Scarf and Band have prevailed, a Mixed set with Slack (and even w/o Slack) has seen usage, and the Nasty Plot set is prevailing in our current metagame. This 'mons dangerous and the best part is that it has options, options that we may or may not be taking advantage of at the moment.
Mamoswine
A → A- - :thumbs_up:
Basically felt pretty weird about Mamo being A for awhile, doesn't really look very deserving of the company that it's in at the moment. It hits harder than a bitch but a lot of 'mons hit hard in this tier, but I don't think the Fighting-type wave is helping it much. Definitely a great 'mon still but Mamo pales in comparison to its peers in A, whereas A- would be a lot kinder (and more accurate, in my opinion).
B- → C+ - Whole Lotta Red
Really confused as to why these two are about to drop to C+ --- it's not like UU's C+ rank is comprised of trash but even still I feel like these two have a lot more to offer than the other C+ ranked 'mons. Swampert has the CB set that's been gaining favor with the people for a good while now, and as a Stealth Rocker it beats three of the tier's best most popular removers in Rotom-H, Tentacruel, and Empoleon (Scald can be a bitch though). A lot of the tier's top breakers are unkind to 'Pert, but being a solid check to M-Aero and keeping up rocks is always going to be appreciated, in my eyes at least.
Onto M-Pidg, and it's pretty much more of the same. Moltres is seeing by far more usage at this point, as it should be thanks to its superior defensive typing & role it can play --- this doesn't completely overshadow what little niche M-Pidgeot still has though. A base 121 speed stat allows it to outspeed some of the tier's most prominent threats in Infernape, Latias, and Terrakion, potentially scaring them out and gaining some momentum with U-Turn. And while M-Pidg isn't all that versatile it can still switch it up. Simply put, these two should NOT drop below fuckin' Crobat.
B+ → A- - Nah
This 'mon is a pretty solid pick in our current metagame, given how much utility it can provide to one's team while performing its Hazard Control role in either SR or Defog. Thanks to moves like U-Turn and Knock Off (maybe even Taunt, not gonna catch me usin' it though) it's not a completely passive piece of shit, and can even prevent shit like M-Alt or SD Scizor from doing too much damage thanks to Curse. All of that plus a pretty nice ability in Immunity (not as good as Poison Heal though!) make for a pretty good Balance/BO pick. While I acknowledge all of this, Gligar is still helplessly passive and its lame damage output is ultimately a come up for a lot of the tier's popular breaker's and set-up 'mons including Primarina, Latias, Togekiss, Slowbro + Slowbro-Mega, Kyurem, SD Sciz and Altaria-Mega (non-Curse variants).
A- → A - Nah & Yah++!
Having these two on the same slate for A is very questionable because Rotom-H does not have as many things going for it as Infernape does at the moment. Rotom-H's defensive presence and utility in Defog can patch up a couple of issues in the teambuilder and that's always appreciated, but Infernape's nice 104 / 104 / 108 offensively-based statline opens up more options for it. Physical sets in Scarf and Band have prevailed, a Mixed set with Slack (and even w/o Slack) has seen usage, and the Nasty Plot set is prevailing in our current metagame. This 'mons dangerous and the best part is that it has options, options that we may or may not be taking advantage of at the moment.
A → A- - :thumbs_up:
Basically felt pretty weird about Mamo being A for awhile, doesn't really look very deserving of the company that it's in at the moment. It hits harder than a bitch but a lot of 'mons hit hard in this tier, but I don't think the Fighting-type wave is helping it much. Definitely a great 'mon still but Mamo pales in comparison to its peers in A, whereas A- would be a lot kinder (and more accurate, in my opinion).
Back to post about more mostly irrelevant mons
Chesnaught: B+ to B
I understand why there was hype around this mon considering it beat the new drops at the time and that its one of our only viable Spikers, but it's always felt underwhelming to me. First of all, Bisharp and Zeraora both turned out to be a bit overhyped (or a shit load in the case of Zera), and their usage have both dropped considerably now that the new toy syndrome has worn off. Aside from its general defensive uses taking a hit, I've always found this thing to be ridiculously awkward to fit on anything not incredibly fat. The fact that it consistently gives free turns to various threats like Latias, Mega Altaria, Togekiss, Celebi, Moltres, Rotom-H, etc. puts a lot of strain on the rest of the team to cover his defensive lapses, often resulting in teams lacking true offensive cohesion and the occasional over-reliance on entry hazards to deal damage to the opposing team. It doesn't even deal particularly well with Waters like Slowbro, Primarina, or Suicune, making it increasingly difficult to have strong counterplay to them while committing to Chesnaught as your Grass-type of choice. With all this said, these faults are precisely what make it a not bad pick on bulkier builds, as they are more easily shored up, but its lack of overall value outside of such settings make me believe it deserves a drop.
Chandelure: B to B-
This thing has had a really tough time since Serperior left. Offensive counters like Hydreigon (specifically Roost sets) and Bulletproof Kommo-o have only gotten more and more popular since its prime, severely limiting its offensive capabilities in combination with what has always been the main thorn in its side: Pursuit. Quick shoutout to Latias, but in all seriousness, the move Pursuit and its ridiculous abundance in SM UU make relying on Chandelure either offensively or defensively really really hard. Sure, on paper its a cool offensive check to stuff like Scizor, Cobalion, and Infernape, but what good does that do if the second it KOs something (or gets U-turned on), there's a Krookodile or Mega Aerodactyl waiting to pick it off, especially when you take its rocks weakness into account. Choice sets are increasingly hard to justify over more consistent Fire-types, and its main niche atm, its Calm Mind set, is not particularly a fan of Mega Aerodactyl or Nihilego's presence on the stall teams it is meant to threaten.
Mega Pidgeot: Remain B-, Crobat: B- to something lower
Alright I'll use this section to simultaneously defend Mega Pidgeot and shit on Crobat. I understand the hate bandwagon behind Mega Pidgeot, mainly due to the superior defensive utility and offensive potential of Moltres. However, Moltres is already a full rank ahead and while those reasons are mostly fair, Mega Pidgeot does have some notable advantages itself. The obvious ones are Mega Pidgeot's 100% accurate moves, a flaw that ultimately makes Moltres much harder to rely on offensively, and Pidgeot's Speed tier is vastly superior, letting it outrun stuff like Latias, Terrakion, Hydreigon, and Cobalion among others. It also isn't nearly neutered entirely by the presence of rocks on its side, which is also something that holds back Moltres defensively. Now this isn't meant to be a bash on Moltres. What I mean to say is that Mega Pidgeot simply has valuable characteristics over it that make it a solid pick in its own right, and it is not straight up outclassed, even if Moltres is generally more useful as shown by its current placing on the VR.
Okay now Crobat is legitimately terrible. I honestly can't imagine a scenario in which I'd consider putting it on a team, as it doesn't do much of anything offensively or defensively over other options. Just looking at the top of the VR, there is little to nothing that Crobat truly deals with effectively, and this includes the 200 Fighting-types which can all seem to hit it for good damage. The presence of threatening birds in Moltres and Togekiss naturally forces formidable Flying checks onto teams, further highlighting its weaknesses to meta staples like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Manectric, Rotom-H, Empoleon, etc. It does have high Speed, Taunt, and the ability to gain momentum via U-turn going for it, but I'm not sure what circumstances you would go out of your way to fit this onto a team considering how little it really offers at the end of the day.
Chesnaught: B+ to B
I understand why there was hype around this mon considering it beat the new drops at the time and that its one of our only viable Spikers, but it's always felt underwhelming to me. First of all, Bisharp and Zeraora both turned out to be a bit overhyped (or a shit load in the case of Zera), and their usage have both dropped considerably now that the new toy syndrome has worn off. Aside from its general defensive uses taking a hit, I've always found this thing to be ridiculously awkward to fit on anything not incredibly fat. The fact that it consistently gives free turns to various threats like Latias, Mega Altaria, Togekiss, Celebi, Moltres, Rotom-H, etc. puts a lot of strain on the rest of the team to cover his defensive lapses, often resulting in teams lacking true offensive cohesion and the occasional over-reliance on entry hazards to deal damage to the opposing team. It doesn't even deal particularly well with Waters like Slowbro, Primarina, or Suicune, making it increasingly difficult to have strong counterplay to them while committing to Chesnaught as your Grass-type of choice. With all this said, these faults are precisely what make it a not bad pick on bulkier builds, as they are more easily shored up, but its lack of overall value outside of such settings make me believe it deserves a drop.
Chandelure: B to B-
This thing has had a really tough time since Serperior left. Offensive counters like Hydreigon (specifically Roost sets) and Bulletproof Kommo-o have only gotten more and more popular since its prime, severely limiting its offensive capabilities in combination with what has always been the main thorn in its side: Pursuit. Quick shoutout to Latias, but in all seriousness, the move Pursuit and its ridiculous abundance in SM UU make relying on Chandelure either offensively or defensively really really hard. Sure, on paper its a cool offensive check to stuff like Scizor, Cobalion, and Infernape, but what good does that do if the second it KOs something (or gets U-turned on), there's a Krookodile or Mega Aerodactyl waiting to pick it off, especially when you take its rocks weakness into account. Choice sets are increasingly hard to justify over more consistent Fire-types, and its main niche atm, its Calm Mind set, is not particularly a fan of Mega Aerodactyl or Nihilego's presence on the stall teams it is meant to threaten.
Mega Pidgeot: Remain B-, Crobat: B- to something lower
Alright I'll use this section to simultaneously defend Mega Pidgeot and shit on Crobat. I understand the hate bandwagon behind Mega Pidgeot, mainly due to the superior defensive utility and offensive potential of Moltres. However, Moltres is already a full rank ahead and while those reasons are mostly fair, Mega Pidgeot does have some notable advantages itself. The obvious ones are Mega Pidgeot's 100% accurate moves, a flaw that ultimately makes Moltres much harder to rely on offensively, and Pidgeot's Speed tier is vastly superior, letting it outrun stuff like Latias, Terrakion, Hydreigon, and Cobalion among others. It also isn't nearly neutered entirely by the presence of rocks on its side, which is also something that holds back Moltres defensively. Now this isn't meant to be a bash on Moltres. What I mean to say is that Mega Pidgeot simply has valuable characteristics over it that make it a solid pick in its own right, and it is not straight up outclassed, even if Moltres is generally more useful as shown by its current placing on the VR.
Okay now Crobat is legitimately terrible. I honestly can't imagine a scenario in which I'd consider putting it on a team, as it doesn't do much of anything offensively or defensively over other options. Just looking at the top of the VR, there is little to nothing that Crobat truly deals with effectively, and this includes the 200 Fighting-types which can all seem to hit it for good damage. The presence of threatening birds in Moltres and Togekiss naturally forces formidable Flying checks onto teams, further highlighting its weaknesses to meta staples like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Manectric, Rotom-H, Empoleon, etc. It does have high Speed, Taunt, and the ability to gain momentum via U-turn going for it, but I'm not sure what circumstances you would go out of your way to fit this onto a team considering how little it really offers at the end of the day.
Not here to debate, just correct you in 2 places:
1.
I will gladly. Mega Altaria may do similar things as far as defog and roost are concerned, but thats about it. Hydreigon has access to Taunt, isn't weak to Bullet Punch which is nice when trying to defog, and acts as a breaker. Altaria on the other hand cannot Taunt anything, is rocks weak coming in which means its a little harder to actually get it to do its job, and Mega Altaria usually ends up as a sweeper. Another point is that Hydreigon can actually come in on and scare out Mega Steelix, which allows it to reliably defog on the switch. My final point as far as this is concerned is that Hydreigon is free to run any item it wants, whether it be Specs, Dragonium, Scarf, etc. Mega Altaria is stuck to the Mega Stone.
2.
haha no. This mon has 2 legitimate sets, being defensive resttalk and specs. Metronome is not that great, and I know because I've tried it. Primarina either wants to abuse it's good typing or wants to just throw off powerful hits and run. Primarina isn't staying in for turn upon turn boosting. The only viable metronome user I can think of is Mamoswine, and even thats a stretch.
Moving on from that, Primarina is not worthy of S rank. Yes, it may be powerful and provide some defensive utility, but thats where it ends. Primarina cannot provide any extra use besides what it already does. It cannot taunt, set or remove hazards, act as a cleric or wish passer, or even act as an offensive pivot. All or the majority of this criteria can be found within our current 3 S ranks, but not in Primarina.
I dont really like to comment on these types of threads but metronome primarina is a great set and just because you havent found success with it doesnt mean it's "not great". If you want to see how it functions on a proper team just hit me up on PS and I'll pass you one.
That being said, versatile isnt really the way to describe it so i agree with you. I think tmac meant that if you dont know which set it is, it's difficult to play around/make a gameplan versus. But still I agree, not S worthy.
What I should've probably said that it's too Niche to actually work consistantly
Like previously mentioned, it really needs to abuse its typing or jus straight up powerhouse through stuff. Metronome requires you to stay in for alot of turns, and that is something Primarina doesn't like to do usually.