USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V3

[Oldamar999]

After reading nominations from the past few months, I see that there isn't a standard format to nominations, and replays aren't necessary. I know this is a controversial nomination, but I'd like to nominate Avalugg from UR to C- for its niche on stall. It may seem to be an unviable pick, even on stall, due to the vast amount of physical sweepers and breakers in UU that get super effective STAB against Avalugg: Mega Aerodactyl, Terrakion, Lucario, and Cobalion, to name a few. However, Avalugg can check physical attackers that don't have super effective STAB, and even some that do (like Mega Aerodactyl). It should be easy to guess what sets Avalugg can run, as it is very predictable, but for completion's sake, here's the go-to set:

Avalugg @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Avalanche
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic

Max HP and defense allows Avalugg to check prominent breakers, like CB Crawdaunt, Malt, Mega Sharpedo, and Haxorus. Avalugg can also check hazard setters that can threaten out tradition stall picks, like Mamoswine and Krookodile (the latter can cripple Gligar with knock off). While not as problematic for stall, Mega Aerodactyl is also checked by Avalugg, so you don't need a different check like Malt (which you also don't need for Crawdaunt). Rocky helmet chips away at some Pokemon Avalugg checks, and punishes u-turn from the likes of Mega Beedrill.

An alternative set with 252HP / 144Def / 112SpD and leftovers can be used to check LO grass knot Zeraora, but this doesn't achieve much else. Curse can be used over toxic to better check DD refresh Malt, and also allows Avalugg to stay in on threatening physical attackers like Terrakion and banded Infernape after a boost.

The reasoning for C- is that C and C- are reserved for Pokemon that serve a specific niche, but aren't good outside of that niche. Articuno (C-), for example, only fits on stall, and only serves to check passive hazard setters that rely on toxic to force out defoggers/spinners (like Empoleon and Swampert). Avalugg also only fits on stall, and has its niche in compressing roles as both a hazard remover and an anti-breaker. Avalugg's ability to wall Mamoswine and remove its rocks is one of the biggest things going for Avalugg, as not many (if any) other Pokemon can do this. Because Avalugg can check prominent breakers as well, it isn't dead weight against teams without a hazard setter that Avalugg is needed to check.

Replays are actually considered somewhat mandatory or at least very useful for UR noms, especially high ladder ones. I'd suggest going it like how the OU VR has you do it, which is p standard. I have no opinion on the nom itself, just want to tell you something for the nom.

 

[pokemonisfun]

After reading nominations from the past few months, I see that there isn't a standard format to nominations, and replays aren't necessary. I know this is a controversial nomination, but I'd like to nominate Avalugg from UR to C- for its niche on stall. It may seem to be an unviable pick, even on stall, due to the vast amount of physical sweepers and breakers in UU that get super effective STAB against Avalugg: Mega Aerodactyl, Terrakion, Lucario, and Cobalion, to name a few. However, Avalugg can check physical attackers that don't have super effective STAB, and even some that do (like Mega Aerodactyl). It should be easy to guess what sets Avalugg can run, as it is very predictable, but for completion's sake, here's the go-to set:

Avalugg @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Avalanche
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic

Max HP and defense allows Avalugg to check prominent breakers, like CB Crawdaunt, Malt, Mega Sharpedo, and Haxorus. Avalugg can also check hazard setters that can threaten out tradition stall picks, like Mamoswine and Krookodile (the latter can cripple Gligar with knock off). While not as problematic for stall, Mega Aerodactyl is also checked by Avalugg, so you don't need a different check like Malt (which you also don't need for Crawdaunt). Rocky helmet chips away at some Pokemon Avalugg checks, and punishes u-turn from the likes of Mega Beedrill.

An alternative set with 252HP / 144Def / 112SpD and leftovers can be used to check LO grass knot Zeraora, but this doesn't achieve much else. Curse can be used over toxic to better check DD refresh Malt, and also allows Avalugg to stay in on threatening physical attackers like Terrakion and banded Infernape after a boost.

The reasoning for C- is that C and C- are reserved for Pokemon that serve a specific niche, but aren't good outside of that niche. Articuno (C-), for example, only fits on stall, and only serves to check passive hazard setters that rely on toxic to force out defoggers/spinners (like Empoleon and Swampert). Avalugg also only fits on stall, and has its niche in compressing roles as both a hazard remover and an anti-breaker. Avalugg's ability to wall Mamoswine and remove its rocks is one of the biggest things going for Avalugg, as not many (if any) other Pokemon can do this. Because Avalugg can check prominent breakers as well, it isn't dead weight against teams without a hazard setter that Avalugg is needed to check.

Do you have a team w/ this set?

 

[VCrakeV]

Do you have a team w/ this set?

https://pokepast.es/5bc3a891545b615a

This is a team I shared in the bazaar. The post is on the second page, at the bottom, if you'd like to check it out; I provided a team breakdown in the post.

 

[Hilomilo]

8/31/19 Update! Thanks for the good discussion this time around! Let's make sure to keep things flowing nice and smoothly :) This time we have a decent batch of changes, so enjoy the read! Be sure to stick around for discussion points in the next post as well! Here's what happened this time:

Changelog

Rises

A- -> A

B+ -> A-

B+ -> A-

B+ -> A-

B -> B+

B -> B+

B- -> B

C+ -> B-

C+ -> B-

C- -> C

Drops

A -> A-

A- -> B+

B -> B-

B -> B-

B -> B-

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

C+ -> C

C+ -> C

C+ -> C

C- -> UR

C- -> UR

C- -> UR

Rise Reasonings

• Amoonguss is an amazing defensive presence and its importance as a top pivot in the metagame is best reflected in A. Its combined abilities to answer to Fairy-types like Primarina and Altaria, blanket check Fighting-types, spread sleep, and pivot in on a large portion of the offensive metagame gives it excellent utility and consistency as meta trends only continue favoring it, warranting a long awaited rise.
• Alomomola is another fantastic pivot with Regenerator, more reliably coming in on choice users like Terrakion and Scizor than nearly any other Pokemon in the tier in addition to checking a bevy of strong presences. The utility it provides in spite of its flaws has made it a large component in stall’s strong resurgence as the generation has come closer to an end while allowing it to more frequently edge Slowbro out on balances.
• Hippowdon has responded excellently to several of the metagame’s adaptations to Gligar. It provides a strong answer to Aerodactyl as Aqua Tail becomes less common in favor of Ice Fang while also solidly checking Manectric, Krookodile, and Terrakion. It can also more easily circumvent its passivity through Whirlwind and sand chip, furthering its usefulness and allowing Hippowdon to edge out its main competition.
• While Tentacruel can get a bit overwhelmed from time to time, its importance as a top role compression Pokemon is well reflected in A-. It offers a strong answer to the rising Refresh Altaria while checking several other Fairy- and Fighting-types, removing hazards, and utilizing its excellent movepool to provide additional utility as needed. Its ability to consistently pull its weight is well worth a rise at this stage.
• Feraligatr remains consistent as a dominant sweeper on Screens, though its tools have recently been applied to other team structures as well, allowing it to showcase its potential even further. Its strong matchups against several common cores, ability to bypass popular Water-type checks, and easily achievable sweeping conditions have all aided it in becoming a key part of the offensive metagame. Agility and Dual Dance sets have also picked up some usage, furthering the argument for a rise.
• Rhyperior has picked up some usage as a stellar rocker. It walks all over Rotom-H and Manectric, offers a strong check to Aerodactyl and Moltres, and has an excellent combination of bulk and power that allows it to remain non-passive while discouraging opposing rockers and removers from switching in. Its value lies in its great role compression and it is certainly on the level of Swampert and Gligar at this stage.
• Nidoqueen has gotten a lot of recent attention for its ability to blanket check a solid portion of the tier while maintaining an amazing offensive presence. Its can 1v1 the likes of Aerodactyl, Manectric, Rotom-H, etc. more reliably than Nidoking while circumventing its Speed tier more easily than in previous metagames. Its value is at an all-time high and a rank closer to Nidoking properly shows this.
• Mantine can still be an awkward fit, but has increased in value some for its ability to consistently check several of the tier’s heavy hitters thanks to Roost, including Scizor, Feraligatr, Lucario, and Infernape. This alongside its solid matchups against many hazard removers has improved its niche as a defogger enough for a small upgrade.
• Pyukumuku’s specially defensive set has been a huge factor in stall’s dominance in recent weeks, fully shutting down top stallbreakers like Infernape, non-Grassium Celebi, and Nasty Plot Lucario. Its utility rivals Quagsire’s at this point, allowing it to become a near staple on UU’s defensive teams, which are only on an upward trajectory.
• Venomoth has received some recent usage that’s proved it can be truly devastating under the right conditions. It’s well equipped to work around some of its more common answers, most notably Scizor if it can time Sleep Powder well, and has proven its strong matchups against several archetypes, thanks in part to its surprising customizability as players have experimented more with options like Roost, Substitute, and Disable, as well as Venomoth’s ability to fit well on Screens.

Drop Reasonings

• Cobalion’s consistency has suffered as new meta trends have rolled in. Terrakion, Krookodile, and Aerodactyl have all received more exploration as rockers, decreasing Cobalion’s former urgency as a setter on several offenses, while its inability to stop Altaria, Latias, and Mimikyu as a Steel-type also hurts it greatly. The presences of Slowbro, Doublade, and Moltres further Cobalion’s uncomfortable spot in the meta, offsetting its status as one of the tier’s more reliable offensive Scizor checks enough for a drop.
• Gligar is past its prime at this stage, and while still good, it runs into a lot of awkward flaws that can constrain teambuilding and hurt its consistency. It fails to check popular Manectric and Terrakion sets, dislikes the increased use of Ice-type coverage from Pokemon like Nihilego and Aerodactyl, and can’t reliably come in on Krookodile. Hippowdon is beginning to look the better option in several cases, warranting a drop.
• Despite rising last update, Azelf’s current ranking wasn’t an accurate reflection of how it compares to Xatu as a screens setter. Azelf’s greater room for innovation, as can be seen in the rise of its Adrenaline Orb + Nasty Plot set, gives it a slight upper hand, though due to its additional sets suffering several shortcomings its most reliable niche is often on screens, where it can be provided considerable competition from Xatu despite its greater versatility.
• Jellicent’s effectiveness is super limited by its shaky bulk and reliance on Colbur Berry, leaving it prone to being overwhelmed by several prominent offensive Pokemon. It can also struggle efficiently breaking defensive cores as a Pokemon with a good fat matchup on paper. This in tandem with its extremely lacking usage in both tournament and ladder play is grounds for a drop, given that the rest of B is simply much more proven.
• Alolan Muk provides several top threats with free turns and can also struggle from its predictability making it fairly easy to work around through several common methods. It’s a phenomenal answer to most Latias, Celebi, and Gengar sets but is both too linear and too reliant on specifically facing these threats to consistently perform. It does have a surprisingly decent fat matchup with Poison Touch and Knock Off at its disposal, however.
• Haxorus faces stiff competition from Feraligatr, a Pokemon better suited for the meta thanks to its BP resistance, a dramatically more spammable STAB move, and much easier setup conditions overall. Haxorus also runs into the issues of lacking defensive utility as Dragon-type and facing competition from several other stallbreakers with more general utility, ultimately making it niche enough to reside in C+.
• Mega Pidgeot has a few decent tools at its disposal, but overall has no clear niche in the tier and suffers pretty immense opportunity cost due to taking up a mega slot and competing with Moltres and Togekiss. It can still make for a decent revenge killer given the prominence of Infernape and Celebi, though all in all it just doesn’t provide as much as it needs to for B- to be reasonable anymore. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
• Reuniclus is dropping due to the heavy constraint it puts on builders because of the several awkward flaws it runs into, such as its awful Scizor matchup, susceptibility to being offensively overwhelmed, and issues regarding moveset. Its consistency simply just isn’t on par with that of other B- Pokemon at this stage, necessitating a drop.
• Decidueye is often heavily outperformed by Grassium Z Celebi and is dropping because of that. Its poor defensive utility and damage output make breaking stall much harder in practice than on paper and it suffers greatly in offensive matchups. Celebi provides a more reliable stallbreaker and is much better suited to combat the rest of the tier as well, making Decidueye harder to justify than ever before.
• Shaymin is another Pokemon faced with immense competition from Celebi, and is dropping to reflect its general inconsistency. Its moveset issues put it in a box in some matchups while necessitating fairly strenuous team support, making it hard to justify over more self sufficient and reliable competition.
• Veilmons, Durant, and Mandibuzz are getting unranked due to lacking justifiable niches at this stage. Veil’s viability has taken a giant hit as Screens and Mimikyu Spikes have dominated UU’s offensive scene, justifying entirely blowing AuruSlash off the map. Durant is cool on paper but sees no usage and has massive opportunity cost given its typing, awful defensive utility, and reliance on Z-moves to do its job. Mandibuzz is hard to justify over options like Hydreigon and Umbreon due to providing too little to teams while simultaneously letting in several devastating threats.

Thanks for reading! Discussion points will be covered in the next post.

 

[Hilomilo]

Discussion Slate

Mimikyu A- -> A
Mimikyu has been a huge boon to the viability of several hyper offenses, providing amazing utility as a reliable spinblocker and safety net for several threatening sweepers thanks to Disguise. Its ability to force foes into uncomfortable 50/50s and nearly always get a kill makes rising a likely possibility, though Mimikyu can also be hard to implement outside of HO and still runs into damage output problems against the tier’s several Steel-type tanks.

Moltres A- -> B+
Moltres can’t as easily punish the tier’s offensive rockers as Aerodactyl, Taunt Krookodile, and Terrakion all experiment with the move more often. This additionally makes it more difficult to support, while it also dislikes the upward trends of Rhyperior and Blissey. It still provides a very strong offensive check to Altaria, however, while also answering to other big presences in Infernape, Scizor, Lucario, and Doublade.

Mega Aggron B+ -> A-
Mega Aggron sits in a pretty solid spot right now, offering a strong check to several physical and special presences alike. While Steelix provides the benefit of a Ground-typing, Aggron can currently offer stronger matchups against a few important presences, such as Celebi, Feraligatr, Aerodactyl, and Ground-types in general. It’s overall a solid tank in the tier, though whether its strengths are on par with Steelix’s is worth discussing before a potential rise.

Klefki B+ -> B
Klefki struggles keeping Spikes up against a large amount of relevant removers, including Rotom-H, Gligar, Empoleon, Tentacruel, and more. Its shoddy bulk also prevents it from answering to Pokemon like Altaria or Mimikyu as reliably as several other Steel-types. This puts dropping it into question, though it’s still the most splashable Spiker on balances, is a phenomenal Latias answer, and provides unique utility with Prankster that can prove vital to some builds.

Nidoqueen B -> B+
Nidoqueen’s strengths in the metagame have been made clear, though whether it’s on Nidoking’s level at this stage is worth further discussing. The combination of its strong offensive presence and ability to check several common forces, like Terrakion, Manectric, Rotom-H, and Altaria, is truly amazing utility, though Nidoking’s greater Speed, which allows it to get the jump on Togekiss, can prove more useful to several common builds. Nidoqueen can also at times run into longevity issues due to having a lot on its plate in several matches.

Quagsire B- -> B
Stall has had its highs and lows throughout the meta but is pretty indisputably at another high point, with several different variations seeing great success. As such, rising one of the archetype’s main staples in Quagsire, especially as double Unaware builds grow more common, seems logical. It is, however, edged out by Pyukumuku on some other stall builds and only fits on a specific play style, which makes the decision less clear cut upon further analysis.

Crobat C+ -> C
Crobat’s identity in the tier is fleeting as more trends seem to work against it. It competes with several better Poison- and Flying-types for a slot, struggles to check many Pokemon it should be able to on paper, and lacks good matchups against rockers as a defogger. Its Taunt + Super Fang set has received fair recent play, however, giving it a way to punish typical switch-ins in Aggron, Steelix, and Hippowdon. Its Speed tier can also be quite useful for revenge killing various threatening sweepers, including Latias, Celebi, and Infernape.

Stoutland UR -> C-
Stoutland is obviously a very niche Pokemon, but performs excellently on sand balances that have received some solid exploration recently. Its solid coverage, Speed that allows it to outrun scarfed Krookodile and Hydreigon under sand, and cleaning capabilities are all quite potent under the right conditions, though it can be a nuisance to support and only fits on a rather niche play style, which makes whether to rank it an interesting topic.

Azelf B- -> C+ or Xatu C -> C+
Screens is obviously leaving an impact as one of the metagame’s best offensive play styles, with Xatu and Azelf proving useful as the most common setters seen on the archetype. Several VR council members believe they should only be a rank apart in viability, though how to reflect this, or whether it should even be reflected, isn’t quite clear. Xatu can provide more longevity with Roost and unique utility thanks to Magic Bounce, though Azelf’s greater Speed and access to Taunt also have their merits, while it also has greater versatility outside of Screens builds. If this versatility is enough to keep it in B- is worth discussing more in depth.

Be kind to one another, and happy posting!

 

[Taptricity]

Alright great stuff overall. I’ll start the discussion I guess. This post may feel a little jumbled though so apologies if it may be hard to follow.

Mimikyu to A = Agreed
Mimikyu is without a doubt the tier’s strongest revenge killer. The sight of it at team preview alone is able to discourage set up as it is always laying in the back ready to stop a Pokemon from gaining control on the field and trying to pull of a sweep. I believe this Pokemon is almost mandatory for Spikes builds. Its potential of stopping any Pokemon of rolling through your frail team while also posing as a secondary spinblocker after Froslass yeets itself out of the match is valuable. And while Mimikyu is weak as piss, it's seen on an archetype that maintains a fuckton of hazards on the opponent’s side of the field, which can actually make Mimikyu annoying as hell to handle at +2. This Pokemon is stupid so raise it.

Moltres to B+ = Agreed
Ehhhh Moltres has always been a mixed bag. Moltres solely relies on Stealth Rock not being on the field for it to check these Pokemon anyway. If there’s rocks, then it’s fucked. You are forced to remain consistent in keeping hazards off in order for Moltres to not be useless. Moltres's shaky af Hurricane has never helped its case either as once it’s burned up its Z-Move it’s gambling even further to remove the likes of Infernape and Mega Altaria. That’s exactly what Moltres is, a gambling Pokemon. You’re trying to spin lucky numbers into a possibly rigged slot machine. That’s how Moltres feels as a Pokemon overall.

Mega Aggron to A- = Abstaining
Could make a case for both ranks imo.

Klefki to B = Agreed
Yeah Klefki sucks as a Spiker. A good use I see in it is Prankster Spikes but this is nearly mitigated by how much it sucks at keeping them up. You have Froslass laying down Spieks while initiating mind games and throttling momentum once it goes down and hell even Ferosseed at the very least can stall out some hazard removal by draining them away. Klefki is just too passive for its own good. It does have that solid defensive typing, but at the cost of mediocrity.

Nidoqueen to B+ = Strongly Agree
You know how I feel about this Pokemon. Nothing’s changed since then so just gonna stan for Nidoqueen.

Quagsire to B = Agreed
Ok but before I go any further with this nomination I will mention two other Pokemon that correlate to Quagsire:

Blissey to A+ and Articuno to C

Alright the last slate was already doing something right by raising Alomomola and Pyukumuku but now the next one has to follow through by raising the baddest bitch of them all Blissey and the rest of her stall goons. Blissey has arguably been the most consistent Pokemon throughout the course of this entire generation, mandating Psyshock on Latias’s main and sometimes BoltBeam sets while walling the fucking special attacking motherload of this tier. Stall has cemented itself as one of the best playstyles in this metagame. Stall has always appeared to be solid but the constant adaptability it has exhibited is unprecedented. My logic is that this playstyle has improved, Blissey is the staplemon of said playstyle, therefore the staplemon should rise. Stall has shown itself to be a playstyle to beat in tournaments when played correctly and can result to devastating losses. Quagsire still provides Stall with a workable Terrakion check while also blanketing Scizor, non Facade Mega Altaria, and Cobalion to name a few. Double Unaware Stall utilizing both Quagsire and SpDef Pyukumuku is also a team that I’ve noticed existing and this notion that these two Pokemon can coincide with one another on the same team shows that Quagsire may have less competition with Pyukumuku than what was originally believed considering what the SpDef set offers to Stall. Finally Articuno is a groundbreaking Pokemon, but it has shown itself to be a reliable edition to the Stalls it can support. Beating most rockers that aren’t Steel- (outside of Empoleon) and Rock-types is a unique asset as it allows Stall teams to ve far more of an annoyance once preventing any sort of attempt at hazards. Freeing up a slot on Blissey by holding Heal Bell is also delightful to have. Sure its not great, but Stall as a whole has improved and therefore I find Articuno also improving. So that’s just my opinion on raising the fat mons.

Crobat to C = Abstain
This mon fucking sucks but I do think Taunt+Super Fang is underexplored so you could make a case for it.

Stoutland ranked = Abstain
Sorry Esta I haven’t played Sand Balance with Stoutland in a very long time. So just gonna sit back and watch how this nomination goes.

Now between Azelf and Xatu, you know what I believe?

Xatu to C+ = Agreed
I don’t believe that Azelf should move anywhere. Azelf has shown to include its own perks to Screens thanks to its higher speed and lone Psyshic-typing meaning it sets Screens easier against Rock-type Pokemon that can get Taunted as well. But the main reason why I think Xatu should rise instead of vice versa is that Azelf isn’t just restricted to Screens. It can show itself on other HOs due to it overall being a usable suicide lead on these teams and packing momentum. Azelf’s kit overall is undexplored in this metagame and it deserves being looked into far more like for Instance its Nasty Plot set, which can be powerful with decent bulk but often does come with a cost of 4MSS. Xatu though is fantastic on Screens and the playstyle itself has showned to stay strong so I’d prefer it rising over Azelf dropping.

Now for more of my own noms after discussing those Stallmon noms:

Froslass to B+
I’m applying the same logic here that I did with Blissey. Spikes HO has significantly improved. Froslass is a staplemon of these builds. Therefore, Froslass should rise. Froslass has still kept itself as the best suicide lead of the tier as usual, always keeping up the momentum after getting removed. But with another powerful tool in Mimikyu, Spikes HO has only become more dangerous to handle.

Hoopa to C
Ok hear me out, I believe that Hoopa is the best stallbreaker in the tier. SpDef Pyukumuku cannot handle a Ghostium Hoopa and is forced to click a Recover in order to not risk taking major damage from Never Ending Nightmare and then being taken out by a Shadow Ball next turn. Pyukumuku relies on spiting the Hoopa which can just as easily switch out thanks to its Substitute protecting it from anything else. Other than that, Hoopa will almost always fuck over Stall once it places itself behind that Substitute and would need to be Pursuit trapped by Mega Aerodactyl out of it in order to be beaten. It’s not an easy Pokemon to build around and is matchup dependent but with how Stall has only shown to be a dominating playstyle, Hoopa is an extremely rare gem that can bust right through it.

Alolan Marowak to the Shadow Realm
This has been LONG overdue. Many other Pokemon have been unranked while Alolan Marowak has been sitting pretty being nothing but a pile of garbage. Who the fuck uses this Pokemon? The last time I’ve heard someone defend this Pokemon’s ranking was because it has some niche on HO without any in depth explanation. Like what’s its niche???? If its niche is being a Rock setter that cannot prevent hazards while being easily exploited by almost every other Rock setter is a niche than that’s just pathetic. I guess it does make for a decent Mega Manectric check with Lightning Rod while checking Infernape and Lucario but its too frail and slow to properly fulfill it. I’m genuinely curious as to what sort of niche people actually believe this Pokemon has. But for now, it’d be better to finally let this Pokemon rest easy.

tl;dr: Disguise is fucking broken, Molt is kinda bad/good, Klefki is just mediocre, I love Nidoqueen too much, nerf Stall, I abstained on Mega Aggron, the bat, and the pupper, Xatu should rise and Azelf should stay where it’s at, Froslass loves Mimikyu in a tsundere-like way, Hoopa is the 3rd Ghost that maybe should rise, and Alolan Wak is the unlucky 4th ghost which means he’s an unfunny little bitch that should be unranked last time I saw this do shit was Serp meta LOL.

This whole post was massive so thanks if you read through it all. See ya!

 

[prikshit]

Cobalion And Gligar Dropping Ranks... I Have Never Been So Proud Of Anything Else I Have Achieved In My Life - Great Choices All Around Council And Thank You For A Great Update!

My Thoughts On Some Of The Mons On The Slate As It Stands...

- This Pokemon Is So Good, And Should Definitely Rise. We've All Used The Standard Defensive Set But I've Been Seeing And Using An Offensive Set With 3-4 Attacks On It With Max Attack On More Offensively Inclined Teams That Need A Glue. Avalanche/Head Smash Etc Are Great Coverage Moves And Lure Plenty Of Things For It's Teammates. I Think This Should Be Explored A Bit More But Even Without I Say This Should Rise.

- While Her Husband Usually Gets Most Of The Attention It's Easy To Forget How Great Defensively Their Type Is Giving Queen A Nice Niche Over Him. While I Don't Use Her As Much As Some Others Might I Can See A Rise.

- Can We Just Unrank This Total Gutter Trash? Breloom And Serperior Have Been Banished To The Big Boy League And It Has Almost No Use Now. Sewage If I Ever Saw This, It Was On My Hitlist After Cobalion And Gligar But Haven't Seen One In So Long I Forgot It Exists. It Is So Weak Like Hitting With A Pool Noodle, Utility Is Overrated, Typing Is Somewhat Decent But It Is Past It's Prime Now. It Is A Little Kid In A Man's/Woman's Tier... But I Guess If You Have To Rank It For Completeness Stick It In C- Or Something. Awful Pokemon...

 

[Oldamar999]

Cobalion And Gligar Dropping Ranks... I Have Never Been So Proud Of Anything Else I Have Achieved In My Life - Great Choices All Around Council And Thank You For A Great Update!

My Thoughts On Some Of The Mons On The Slate As It Stands...


View attachment 192992 - This Pokemon Is So Good, And Should Definitely Rise. We've All Used The Standard Defensive Set But I've Been Seeing And Using An Offensive Set With 3-4 Attacks On It With Max Attack On More Offensively Inclined Teams That Need A Glue. Avalanche/Head Smash Etc Are Great Coverage Moves And Lure Plenty Of Things For It's Teammates. I Think This Should Be Explored A Bit More But Even Without I Say This Should Rise.


View attachment 192993 - While Her Husband Usually Gets Most Of The Attention It's Easy To Forget How Great Defensively Their Type Is Giving Queen A Nice Niche Over Him. While I Don't Use Her As Much As Some Others Might I Can See A Rise.


View attachment 192994 - Can We Just Unrank This Total Gutter Trash? Breloom And Serperior Have Been Banished To The Big Boy League And It Has Almost No Use Now. Sewage If I Ever Saw This, It Was On My Hitlist After Cobalion And Gligar But Haven't Seen One In So Long I Forgot It Exists. It Is So Weak Like Hitting With A Pool Noodle, Utility Is Overrated, Typing Is Somewhat Decent But It Is Past It's Prime Now. It Is A Little Kid In A Man's/Woman's Tier... But I Guess If You Have To Rank It For Completeness Stick It In C- Or Something. Awful Pokemon...

You cant actually unrank crobat because its UU by usage, pokemon like that would fall into D rank, we just haven't had one in a while cuz the last D rank (arcanine) became RU a while ago. Ur still an absolute legend tho

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Discussion Slate

Mimikyu A- -> A: Agree.
People definitely underestimated this mon because of it's inability to break certain metagame staples. The sheer amount of utility it provides with disguise and it's typing is certainly helpful, and can still break teams with the right support. The fact that it can take a game by the horns if it ever gets a free turn is welcome as well. Be careful with choiced fightings and dragons when this thing is still around.

Moltres A- -> B+: Agree.
This mon was a menace when Rotom-H and Aero were slapped on everything to deal with it, leaving it to exploit them with Z or specs mixed with rocks from the Molt's own team. But with the rediscovery of Rhyperior and many teams leaning back toward dedicated special walls to deal with Nidoking and Sub Gengar, Moltres has taken some inherent blows that make it more difficult to use. The experiments with various offensive rockers that consistently keep them up have also shot Moltres down, as it can become a slog in these matchups.

Mega Aggron B+ -> A-: Disagree.
I feel like Mega Aggron isn't quite on par with Mega Steelix at the moment. While Filter and a generally more invested spdef, as well as taking on water and grass breakers slightly better are all nice perks, I feel like Mega Steelix is a little better for it's offensive prowess. Gyro Ball is a more consistent damage option than Aggron's Heavy Slam and STAB EQ as well as curse can make it a constant offensive threat moreso than Aggron, with pokemon like Hydreigon and Doublade As examples taking pitiful damage from Aggron's Heavy Slam and EQ compared to the Gyro Ball and STAB EQ from Lix. In addition, I feel Aggron can often find itself on the end of 4MSS syndrome. Steelix usually gets by with it's standard set. But Aggron, it wants to run all sorts of things. It wants to run stealth rocks, it has to pick between roar and toxic, earthquake and fire punch, which can often affect it's matchup spread and make it's team weak to certain things that Aggron would cover if it just had 5 or 6 moves. It's strengths over Steelix aren't even that impressive either, it can still struggle with a Dragon Danced Feraligatr, dancing with a nasty potential 2HKO from even the Jolly variant if Aggron gets chipped even slightly, while being able to do little in return minus a roar or toxic (Which are both shaky solutions considering you're sacrificing most of your Aggron's health to put them on Feraligatr.) And it's Celebi matchup is also shaky as +2 Celebi can flat 2HKO you before you 2HKO it as it burns Z. In certain matchups forcing Celebi to Z can be helpful, yes, but you're sacrificing your mega slot pokemon just to make a nasty plotter use it's Z, making the trade still in the Celebi player's favor. While It's certainly arguable that Aggron takes these pokemon on better, I'd still tell you to go back to builder if it's your main check to either of them. I'll concede that it has some better matchups than Steelix that aren't as shaky, like Aero-Mega and Scizor, But I don't think Steelix takes them on so poorly that Aggron deserves to jump to the same plane, Especially since a lot of teams you'd see Aggron or Steelix on will usually have them covered in another slot as well, with something like a bulky water or ground. Hell, in the case of fighting Scizor, it'll usually have to set aside an important move for roar or fire punch, which can leave Aggron open to another slew of issues. There's also the elephant in the room of the opprotunity cost. Slotting Aggron can put teams in a position where they'll need to find another answer to Electrium Z Latias, when Steelix naturally handles both of Latias' Z sets in one slot. Steelix also handles the Miscellaneous Zeraora better, and doesn't need to change up it's moves all too much to hit the things EQ hits while still being able to take on Scizor variants to a degree, while Aggron will be flailing against these mons if it doesn't have the right move at the right time. Aggron is a great pokemon, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's on the same level as Mega Steelix in this meta. I feel like Steelix brings just a little more to a team in one slot, Aggron's passivity compared to Steelix, as well as needing to decide it's matchup spread in 4 moves, makes me think Steelix is more consistent right now.

Klefki B+ -> B: Agree.
Klefki is outclassed as a spiker on offenses by Froslass, and Mimikyu even has the gall to replace it as a fairy for spikes builds. Finding builds beyond offensive spikes that it fits on is a much more difficult task, narrowing the amount of builds that appreciate Klefki's traits. A lot of the hazard removers right now blanking it also isn't a pretty sight, and many teams that like spikes usually will want something that keeps them up more consistently in the face of any spinner or defogger. Klefki feels like one of those mons where it's not necessarily gotten worse, but everything around it has gotten better. Mimikyu's brand of offense has no room for this Pokemon.

Nidoqueen B -> B+: Agree.
Nidoqueen brings the blanket Fight-Z Terrak/Mane check that teams have been yearning for ever since Gligar turned out to be disappointing in that role. While not the best in that role either (Hail Palossand) Nidoqueen probably offers the most momentum of any pokemon that can blank Rak and Check Mane. It's a decently heavy hitter for how bulky it is and this can certainly work in it's favor if being picked for a team who feels that other Ground type Terrak checking alternatives are too slow or passive. It's ability to set toxic spikes also makes it easier to splash onto teams that already have rocks, not making Nidoqueen feel like it's wasting it's 4th moveslot. Being in contention for one of the better toxic spike setters also helps it's case, as many bulkier teams right now like having the extra hazard on their side.

Quagsire B- -> B: Agree.
Double unaware stall is the worst thing to happen to UU since Electrium Latias, and the meta's scrambling to try and counter this and Spdef Pyukumuku in one slot shows how influential this pokemon is becoming along with it's partner in crime. A rise would definitely reflect it's current effect on the meta.

Crobat C+ -> C: Disagree.
Grass types get better as Amoonguss cements itself as one of the best defensive pokemon in the meta, as well as Roserade creeping up as a rising star also helps Crobat's case as one of the best measures to it, I've even seen some recent Tsareena exploration here and there. Crobat rises and falls with grass types and grass types are starting to reach one of their higher points post-Megavenu. It's got other stuff to do now too. Taunt Super Fang set also deserves more exploration in a meta where Stall has such a chokehold it's downright suffocating. I'll also advocate for any pokemon that can jump a Lati and still have a decent bulky matchup. It's also not a bad choice to have against current meta star Altaria, doing well against it defensively and even being fast enough to outspeed the common variant at +1 to revenge it. Revenging pokemon like Infernape and Celebi is also nice. Its also a surprisingly decent mon against Substitute Gengar, outrunning and KOing it through it's sub and not dying to any one non-Ghostium hit even if Gengar calls it coming in. I think a lot of people just gave up on Crobat after Mega Venusaur's ban and I think it deserves more exploration before it's dropped out of existence. Its fast for what it can do to bulkier builds and practically acts as a diet scarfer in some situations, bolstering it's teams against many offensive threats with blistering speed while also having a bulky matchup. I think that's an underrated trait in the builder if you ask me personally.

Stoutland UR -> C-: Agree.
Dog is a strong option for the meta's niche sand teams, giving these teams a strong, fast KO machine that isn't completely dead weight outside of it's weather like other weather abusers. It's high attack and decent coverage isn't going anywhere even when the sand clears. Sand also not being in contention with any other weather with even the veil goons getting unranked is also good news for any sand abuser to hear. It's very unlikely the sand will be cleared by Stoutland's opponent to begin with, making it more consistent in the hands of a player that manages the sand well.

Azelf B- -> C+ or Xatu C -> C+
Xatu is disgustingly underrated in this meta. It helped bring the screens archetype to life and I'd argue it as the better setter 9 times out of 10. Azelf still deserves B- rank above for it's standard rocks set (An especially hot pick on the kinds of Mimikyu teams that can maintain the hazards after Azelf's suicide plays) and the needs-more-exploration Nasty plot set in addition to it's own screens set. Xatu deserves to rise to be a rank under it however because of how well it anchors non-Azelf screens teams, giving a bulky option that can consistently set screens multiple times throughout a game and can maintain momentum with U-turn. Magic Bounce also lets screens teams deal with defoggers better than the Azelf screen builds and being able to block status moves and certain hazard setters with Magic Bounce also makes it an amazing tool in the hands of a skilled player.

 

[ehT]

nooooo don't drop moltres it's still really good!!! ho is awesome right now and moltres teams are really good at getting rid of hazards versus them, which makes moltres an absolute bitch to deal with. also lix hippo and aggron are all still *really* good rockers and moltres can annoy tf out of bo's that use them. please keep it a-.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Mimikyu (A- to A):

• Strong checkdown option against tier's many set-up sweepers, notably Terrakion, Feraligatr, and Latias thanks to Disguise
• Wood Hammer variants relieve pressure from Unaware stall compositions, especialy those using Quagsire and SpDef Pyukumuku
• Strengthens many Hazard plus comps (Spikes HO, Webs HO) when running Ghostium-Z since it has strong matchups againstrelevant Rapid Spinners (Tentacruel, Starmie). Ironically loses to worst Rapid Spinner Forretress, but I'll let that slide.

Mega Aggron (Stay B):

• Does not offer enough utility as Defensive Steel type as Mega Steelix, most importantly Volt Switch resistance
• Weaker than Mega Steelix on average
• Mega Steelix beats Electrium Z Latias. Mega Aggron can't.

Klefki (B+ to B)

• Lack of offensive pressure makes it vulnerable to being set-up bait against Pokemon like Scizor
• Has no way to combat opposing hazard removal (Defog)
• Arrival of Mimikyu depreciates Klefki's value as a Fairy-type on HO compositions
• Lacks a way to help team generate offensive momentum through either VoltTurn options or Suicide-Leading

Nidoqueen (B to A-)

• Higher natural bulk allows Nidoqueen to spec into bulk; in turn, Nidoqueen can opt to run Modest, thus making it stronger than Nidoking
• Very good at breaking current balance trends, notably Steel + Fairy and Sand Balance. Third Offensive slot highly customizable to address bulky waters (Thunderbolt) or fatter Scizor variants (Fire Blast)
• Substitute + LO + 3 Attacks makes it a better wallbreaker by alleviating match-up and Speed issues

Azelf (Keep B-)

• Consistent suicide lead for non-Spikes HO teams and Screens HO
• Offensive sets that Azelf can run (Special wallbreaker) are extremely underrated because of its speed tier and Nasty Plot. Latter move allows it to plow Balance builds. Energy Ball + Nasty Plot gives it agency to plow Unaware Stall compositions
• Unlike Xatu, Screens Azelf can bait Scizors

 

[Sickist]

More of an irrelevant nomination, but I feel like Stakataka should move from C+ -> B-

Stakataka is niche. Trick Room as a whole playstyle is very bad, but I am not referring to full TR. I think Stakataka's OTR set on offense is pretty good and does at least something in all matchups, especially in the offense matchup. It forces the opponent to always keep the check healthy reguardless of the rest of the team and play less aggressive throughout a match. This is because Staka needs so little chip to start snowballing. It also appreciates Chesnaught, the one actual counter to this mon, dropping off pretty much. Stakataka is worth so much more then C+ suggests, and is on par with the things in B- then in C+. However, it has glaring flaws still, so don't put it any higher then B- imo. Hope you all enjoy your day.

 

[VCrakeV]

More of an irrelevant nomination, but I feel like Stakataka should move from C+ -> B-

Stakataka is niche. Trick Room as a whole playstyle is very bad, but I am not referring to full TR. I think Stakataka's OTR set on offense is pretty good and does at least something in all matchups, especially in the offense matchup. It forces the opponent to always keep the check healthy reguardless of the rest of the team and play less aggressive throughout a match. This is because Staka needs so little chip to start snowballing. It also appreciates Chesnaught, the one actual counter to this mon, dropping off pretty much. Stakataka is worth so much more then C+ suggests, and is on par with the things in B- then in C+. However, it has glaring flaws still, so don't put it any higher then B- imo. Hope you all enjoy your day.

I'm not sure if this should affect the nomination at all, but I'd like to point out that Chesnaught is not the only viable (actual?) counter to Stakataka. There is also Hippowdon, Quagsire, Swampert, Mega Slowbro, and Palossand.

 

[Kink]

If anyone has any curiosity as to why their VR message may have been deleted, please pm me directly and do not derail the thread. Thank you.

 

[658Greninja]

Mimikyu A- > A: Agree
This mon is easily under ranked rn considering the impact it has on HO and making it the most prominent playstyle in UU rn only behind Stall. It’s easily the best revenge killer in the tier thanks to having a great offensive typing + Disguise. Wood Hammer has been increasing in usage on Mimikyu sets to let it beat Quagsire and Pyukumuku on Stall and combat Rhyperior which has increased in usage, as an extra bonus it could kill itself via recoil damage in clutch situations vs defoggers to gain momentum and keep hazards on the field. It still struggles with Steels, especially Mega-Aggron and Mega-Lix however most of its checks/counters (except Scizor) have no reliable recovery increasing the odds for Mimikyu to sweep lategame. I could even be A+ if the meta continues to be kind to it.

Moltres A- > B+: Agree
Hazards are harder to remove than before with increased usage of Taunt Krookodile and other experimented rockers. It can even lose to matchups its supposed to beat due to the inconsistent nature of its high damaging stabs and 4x rock weakness, making it require alot of support in order to do its job.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Moltres: 196-231 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Infernape Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 192-226 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The increased usage of Blissey and stall in general obviously doesn’t help at all. Its inconsistency has become more revealing in the current meta.

Mega-Aggron B+ > A-: Agree
Stall has become the most prominent playstyle in the tier rn as previously stated. Providing both rocks and a blockade to non Groundium-Z Celebi, Mimikyu, Kyurem, and CM Latias thanks to its naturally good physical attack and access to Roar. M-Aggron has even found itself on Balance and BO teams recently due to its defensive utility and Steel, Ground, Fire coverage hitting everything hard except for things like Gligar and most bulky waters such as Pert and Bro. Curse sets are fantastic wincons for bulkier teams being able to setup on Fairies, Scizor, and mons that in normally couldn’t beat like Gligar or even Hippo. Mega-Aggro deserves to join the other A- ranks.

Klefki B+ > B: Agree
For a mon on HO, it slows down momentum greatly and is basically a “Remove my spikes pls” sign for nearly every common hazard remover in the tier. Most notably Gligar. Starmie hits Klefki hard, removes it hazards, and flips the bird as it switches out to remove any status damage inflicted by Toxic or TWave. Tentacruel just spins spikes away and sets up TSpikes. Roto Heat Overheats it or removes its spikes. Its passive asf and give free momentum to Scizor, Mimikyu, Gligar (again), Pert, and some other threats that have seen more usage lately such as Nidoqueen and Blissey. Froslass can actually pressure hazard removal, has a better speed tier, doesn’t get cucked by spin, and Cursed Body could potentially win games for the team.

Nidoqueen B > B+: Agree
It doesn’t have reliable recovery but it takes little from rocks and is immune to Toxic letting it switch into mons like Terra, Roto-Heat, Mimikyu, and M-Alt more frequently while providing its team rocks. Unlike some of the defensive rockers, in can still do big damage letting it be splashed on more offensive oriented teams. Its royal husband still has more speed and damage but not by much, and Queen’s overall bulk is more suitable in the current meta.

Keep Azelf and Xatu in their ranks
Azelf is still the superior screens lead by a small margin. Azelf can threaten the most common answer to HO leads Scizor with Flamethrower/Fire Blast and provide utility with Knock Off, Taunt, U-Turn, and Explosion to gain momentum and deal big damage. Being able to fend of hazards and defog is a nice niche but it’s still easy setup bait and it doesn’t do very well vs common rockers like Krook, SD Coba, and Rhyperior meaning it has to take a heavy risk if it wants to keep hazards off the field. Xatu is still slower meaning it may not even get a chance to get one screen up, let alone two.

Stakataka C+ > B-: Disagree
Current trends don’t favor Stakataka very well. Stall increasing in usage, and common fighting, ground, water, coverage that spreads in the UU tier. Bro and Queen seeing increased usage doesn’t help its case and Stakataka is very matchup reliant mon and thus an inconsistent one.

Now for my nomination.

Mega-Pidgeot C+ > C
Metagame trends keep worsening it. Increased usage of Rhyperior, Nihilego, and Offensive Scizor sets which are more likely to revenge kill it, Stall using M-Aggro and SpD Pyukumuku more often weakens its Work Up Refresh sets, and its getting harder to splash then ever due to it lacking defensive synergy vs the top threats in the meta. Rocks being harder to remove also reduces the likely hood that it’ll switch. Checking Ape, Celebi, Coba, and NP Lucario is still a nice feat. Not to mention its overall solid speed tier.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Vcrakev's team is just good. The lack of Toxic on Blissey makes some Pokemon much harder like Celebi and special attackers with instant recovery but it doesn't instantly fold to any breaker. So I suppose I'm just saying I agree with Avalugg because he actually did the work of making a team and after testing it I agree it's pretty much fine.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't need double heal Bell anyways so Blissey really can add Toxic

This is basically gold standard posting - find niche mon, do the hard work of building stall with it, and making a very reasonable post without any exaggerations or unnecessary flowery prose. Give the man credit and at least acknowledge his post

 

[Sickist]

No noms this time, but I would like to offer my thoughts on some of the nominations I actually care about.

: This mon has seen better days, obviously, but I disagree wholeheartedly that it should be unranked, or even dropped. Crobat's viability has pretty much stayed the same since Serp and Loom left, with it being okayish, but kinda lackluster as a whole. I think it's current rank is a fine image of this and Crobat shouldn't drop.

: I agree with a rise for this mon. Having the great typing both offensively and defensively, alongside solid bulk, let Nidoqueen be bulky and hit harder then Nidoking. It's also quite the effective rocker vs common hazard removal atm, as well as offering a good amount of role compression. Raise this mon to B+.

: Just add the thing to the VR so Estarossa shuts up plz... In all seriousness, I've used Stoutland a little myself, trying a few sand teams with it, and I can say it preforms decently well. It appreciates the Normal/Dark/Fighting coverage it has, and nothing in the tier can take more then 3 hits from it. It's a decent sand abuser and I see no reason for it not to be ranked.

That's it for now. To hell with Klefki, that mon shouldve been B- by now. Have a good day, everyone.

 

[Amane Misa]

Mimikyu A- -> A: Agree
Hyper Offense is a really good playstyle right now and Mimikyu is partially what makes it so good. It has a lot of utility in HO because not only does it block Rapid Spin, but it also checks dangerous setup sweepers to stall like Mega Altaria and can weaken physical walls for a Mega Sharpedo sweep.

Moltres A- -> B+: Agree
Building with Moltres has been relatively hard lately. HO and stall teams are on a rise in viability and Moltres doesn't do well vs both; it is KOed by a +2 Quick Attack from Scizor after Stealth Rock and is forever walled by Blissey. Furthermore, the metagame is shifting towards using more offensive Stealth Rock setters like Krookodile, Terrakion, and Mega Aerodactyl which Moltres definitely dislikes.

Mega Aggron B+ -> A-: Agree
While it still has troubles reliably setting Stealth Rock up vs Gligar, it has interesting unique tools to pose a threat to both fat teams and to Hyper Offense. The Curse set shines as it's an almost guaranteed late-game wincon against Hyper Offense and slower teams generally have very limited counterplay to it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-454801

This replay shows how Curse Mega Aggron shines against slower and fatter teams; even though Mega Aggron did not end up sweeping it definitely had the potential to sweep if Rotom-H was removed.

Klefki B+ -> B: Disagree
I already discussed it with a few VR Council members and I came to the conclusion that Klefki shouldn't drop any further. While it isn't a very reliable Spikes setter on its own because the omnipresent Rotom-H and Tentacruel do not fear it at all, both Rotom-H and Tentacruel are easy to chip by the likes of Krookodile and hazards, not to mention Rotom-H will never appreciate getting hit with a Toxic. Furthermore, this is pretty much the best Spikes setter UU has to offer because Froslass is extremely hard to fit on non-HO teams.

Nidoqueen B -> B+: Agree
Nidoqueen is a fun glue to balance teams because it absorbs Toxic Spikes, sets Stealth Rock semi-reliably, and checks Terrakion and Mega Altaria well. Another good reason for it to rise is that it gets Stealth Rock up vs stall staples like Gligar and Mega Altaria reliably.

Quagsire B- -> B: Disagree
I personally like Pyukumuku more because Gligar became a staple on stall teams so Quagsire's Ground-typing isn't as needed as it originally was. Pyukumuku, unlike Quagsire, is able to beat Special sweepers too, which is one big advantage Pyukumuku has over Quagsire. Quagsire isn't bad by any means but unless anything changes to stall I don't think that Quagsire should rise. Also, I do not believe in double Unaware stall teams.

Azelf B- -> C+ or Xatu C -> C+: Azelf should stay in B- and Xatu should rise to C+
Azelf:
While I'd never use Azelf over Froslass + another offensive Stealth Rock setter, its Nasty Plot sets should receive some usage because they're very good and dangerous. B- is the place for it right now.

Xatu:
From what I've seen, there's no screens setter than outclasses Xatu in the current metagame. It has proven itself to be a better screens setter than Azelf so it should rise accordingly.

a nomination of my own:

Salazzle C+ -> C: This Pokemon sucks; I have never seen it do anything major lately. The SubToxic set is very matchup dependent and does nothing but annoy; I think it is as viable as Decidueye and Cofagrigus, which are ranked C. The Nasty Plot set that was used to beat stall straight up loses to Pyukumuku stall, so it's not gonna save Salazzle from not dropping.

might do more nominations later, Salazzle's just the thing that came to my mind.

 

[Sickist]

Another bad nom but I feel like cleaning needs done.

Mega Absol - C -> C-

When was the last time you saw a serious Absol user? This mon is nice in theory, boasting a nice offensive movepool and has a nice ability in Magic Bounce......but it can't use it. Its so not-bulky that it can't come in safe 90% of the time on ANYTHING, can't run offensive SD sets because it dies to about every form of priority in the tier, and even if it gets a kill, it gets murdered / revenged by the next thing coming out anyways. I don't know how Absol has stayed this long in C+, it clearly isn't as good as anything else in C+. The Meta is just not for Absol.

 

[QY_CS]

Alolan Marowak to the Shadow Realm
This has been LONG overdue. Many other Pokemon have been unranked while Alolan Marowak has been sitting pretty being nothing but a pile of garbage. Who the fuck uses this Pokemon? The last time I’ve heard someone defend this Pokemon’s ranking was because it has some niche on HO without any in depth explanation. Like what’s its niche???? If its niche is being a Rock setter that cannot prevent hazards while being easily exploited by almost every other Rock setter is a niche than that’s just pathetic. I guess it does make for a decent Mega Manectric check with Lightning Rod while checking Infernape and Lucario but its too frail and slow to properly fulfill it. I’m genuinely curious as to what sort of niche people actually believe this Pokemon has. But for now, it’d be better to finally let this Pokemon rest easy.

tl;dr: Disguise is fucking broken, Molt is kinda bad/good, Klefki is just mediocre, I love Nidoqueen too much, nerf Stall, I abstained on Mega Aggron, the bat, and the pupper, Xatu should rise and Azelf should stay where it’s at, Froslass loves Mimikyu in a tsundere-like way, Hoopa is the 3rd Ghost that maybe should rise, and Alolan Wak is the unlucky 4th ghost which means he’s an unfunny little bitch that should be unranked last time I saw this do shit was Serp meta LOL.

This whole post was massive so thanks if you read through it all. See ya!

It is a major attacker on trick room teams so it isn't complete garbage at least. Tho trick room is terribly outdated and really needs some pros to bring it back alive.

Nidoqueen B -> B+
Nidoqueen’s strengths in the metagame have been made clear, though whether it’s on Nidoking’s level at this stage is worth further discussing. The combination of its strong offensive presence and ability to check several common forces, like Terrakion, Manectric, Rotom-H, and Altaria, is truly amazing utility, though Nidoking’s greater Speed, which allows it to get the jump on Togekiss, can prove more useful to several common builds. Nidoqueen can also at times run into longevity issues due to having a lot on its plate in several matches.

Crobat C+ -> C
Crobat’s identity in the tier is fleeting as more trends seem to work against it. It competes with several better Poison- and Flying-types for a slot, struggles to check many Pokemon it should be able to on paper, and lacks good matchups against rockers as a defogger. Its Taunt + Super Fang set has received fair recent play, however, giving it a way to punish typical switch-ins in Aggron, Steelix, and Hippowdon. Its Speed tier can also be quite useful for revenge killing various threatening sweepers, including Latias, Celebi, and Infernape.

The two I wouldn't agree in this change. Nidoqueen is still generally not worth taking, considering its lack of recovery and its check usually having a lot of chances to enter the battle. This makes nidoqueen fairly easily worn down and not as useful in defensive balanced teams as it seems to be on paper. Offensive wise its basically just overshadowed by Nidoking. Maybe It might be possible to have Nidoqueen as a pivot for offensive teams but I'll test it out and see how that goes. For the moment I don't think Nidoqueen deserves a B+ just yet.
Crobat is just way underexplored in the meta, with its amazing moveset allowing it to fill up a designated role on many teams. Crobat also has a very decent matchup against stall, due to its immunity to Toxic, access to recovery, defog, and taunt. This allows Crobat to stop many methods stall has to wear a team down. Against offensive teams, especially the Spikes team that seeked rise in the current meta, Crobat is the fastest defogger in the tier apart from Klefki and is at the same time immune to Spikes itself. Crobat's decent bulk also gives it another niche when paired with Haze, allowing it to shutdown several threats such as Suicune and Mimikyu. I think C+ defines Crobat more than C does and I believe with more exploration on this pokemon it might even find more of its power.

Lastly I would like to nominate Tsareena B -> B-
I just have no idea why its this high anyways, I don't see a single thing it can do well enough to sit this high, I need some explanations.
Edit: btw Tsareena analysis for UU has Azumarill in it lol

Edit 2: I'm just gonna quickly point out how Wood Hammer Mimikyu is actually doing very well against MAlt stall, in case people already started forgetting this move. Mmq definitely deserves A and tbh I would even raise it up to A+.

Edit 3: Yeah Nidoqueen is actual garbage, well toxic spikes in general is.

 

[Twilight]

Moltres A- -> B+: Agree I agree Moltres isn't in its prime anymore with stuff like Mega Aerodactyl, Rhyperior etc. rising up in usage. It struggles a lot to break past these defensive Mons as well as just struggling in general against most fat teams. I also agree with Misa's point that this Mon isn't that easy to incorporate into a team anymore for what it provides in the meta. I think Agility sets are one of its best rn just to give it a good matchup against offense due to its lack of power to break balance/stall effectively. Overall I can agree with a drop here.

Azelf B- -> C+: Disagree I would keep Azelf where it is. While it has fallen off as a suicide lead rocker there are a few teams that I think that set can still be valuable. Azelf has proved to be a great Screens setter with added benefits that Xatu can't achieve. This Mon already dropped last time I think and really see a reason to drop it again. I am indifferent about whether Xatu rises or not.

Crobat C+ -> C: Disagree I have defended this thing from dropping like three times and each time it ends back up on the discussion slate... I'm not going to go in any depth with this one as I've made enough posts on it, but Bat is fine where it is. Sure it has fallen off a lot but the utility of pressuring fat and keeping Malt, Gengar, Ape etc. in check is valuable on the few teams it can fit on.

Stoutland UR -> C-: Idk sure I guess. I've seen Esta using it well and has sparked people posting RMTs with it >.> The dog gives sand balance a good form of speed control with offensive presence so if people feel strongly enough about it then sure rank it.

Nidoqueen B -> B+: Agree Yeah this should defo be the same rank as Nidoking. Imo offensive NidoQ is by far its superior set, giving it even stronger breaking potential thanks to its Modest nature while retaining a respectable amount of bulk to soft check threats like Terrakion, Cobalion etc. NidoQ also has the added bonus of being an effect Toxic Spike user which is phenomenal when it is one of the few entry hazard users that prevents stuff like Rotom-H and Gligar coming in and freely removing them.

Mimikyu A- -> A: Agree Yeah Mimi is really good on HO and I have been enjoying using it. While it still lacks the offensive presence to break past most bulkier builds it has enough to be able to get past shit like Hippowdon, Amoonguss etc. Disguise is just really valuable on HO because it acting as essentially an extra sac helps when it comes to revenge killing top threats like Malt and Lati.

I don't have much opinion on the rest of the stuff being discussed rn though I do think Tsareena is fine where it is in B and should not drop. It provides a lot of utility in Spin and Knock support and potentially acting as a one-time status absorber. Tsareena is one of the few Grass-types that has the offensive presence to break past most of its checks thanks to its great movepool. I think people can also still explore some more with its sets and items too. I'm too lazy to go in much more detail with this, but just my thoughts ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[VCrakeV]

I figured I'd come by and make a few points about Avalugg, but mostly just share some replays to help my case. I'd discuss the nominations on the slate, but I don't think there's anything I can say that hasn't already been said. Anyway, Avalugg is appreciated for its ability to deal with some meta shifts, like taunt rocks Krook and wood hammer Mimikyu (which sweeps stall teams lacking Avalugg or Mega Aggron, unless they don't have shadow claw for Moltres). It can also serve as an emergency check to set up sweepers that have gotten out of control, like Latias and Celebi, thanks to sturdy. Anyway, here are some replays showcasing the table:

In this match, Avalugg checks half the team, and puts in a lot of work. I did get lucky in the last few turns, but as you should be able to tell, I was in a position to win at that point regardless: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-974851589

In this match, Avalugg keeps rocks away from Mamoswine, and deals with Zeraora. Something worth taking note of in this battle is that Avalugg's atrocious speed allows it to spin at the end of the turn, so the opponent cannot spam rocks until they drop to poison to keep rocks up: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-975368477

Also, why is Froslass everywhere? Lol, I see it way more than the usage stats suggests I should.

 

[yeezyknows]

I want to second Sickist's nomination of Stakataka to B-, albeit for different reasons than Staka's viability on TR teams.

One of the most valuable niches in the tier is being a bulky steel type that sets rocks. However, the tier's most preeminent bulky steel rockers are both megas: mlix and magg.

Naturally, this can be constraining with regard to building, as you're prevented from using mons such as malt, mmane, maero, mbro, and countless other viable megas alongside your bulky steel rocker. Staka circumvents this constraint in teambuilding, serving as a bulky steel that's able to be paired with the tier's strong and naturally synergetic megas.

Staka is used with leftovers and protect, and as a result is able to successfully take on both boltbeam and z-draco latias to great success, baiting the z on the former and hard walling the latter. Staka also does phenomenally versus HO builds, as you hard wall mimikyu, OHKO froslass with 3 hits of rock blast, wall non-eq variants of m-sharpedo, and generally do well vs HO variants of Latias.

Obviously, staka has its limitations, as being a steel type that serves as setup fodder for scizor does require some crafty building, but the freedom awarded by being a non-mega rocks-setting steel does offset this to a certain extent.

 

[watermess]

I'm quite new to viability rankings, however my interest spike in uu has compelled me to add me input on a few things

C+ -> C agree I have yet to play crobat that did much more than maybe defog as a rock setter that walls it comes in and resets them, or gets sent in to die to a draco in mid- late game... if someone wants to send me some replays and sets that show this thing to be viable then please do
**enough said**

B -> B+: ​

Agree I have to say that I find nidoqueen very instrumental in UU, its bulk allows it to not only check things like terrak and M altaria effectively which I think we all know are quite effective in the current climate as well as being able to set tspike or rocks, threaten common switch ins with a sheer force super effective atk (even if defencive spreads don't do a lot of damage - its still forcing a roost/recover often) and this is without mentioning that it can eat up scarf dracos impressively if the team is in a pinch for pivots mid - late game, and I still have yet to touch on tspike absorbtion and its ability to be a soft check to heaps of pokemon such as scizor, hydreigon, and a plethora of other mons that if can actually eat any 1 hit from and ko, chip in range in return, so great defencive roll compression that is also a stellar check to certain metagame threats as well? seems at least B rank to me

that's all I got for now, I don't ususally post a lot but I love to hear peoples replies so please challenge me and correct me where due!

 

[Sickist]

C+ -> C agree I have yet to play crobat that did much more than maybe defog as a rock setter that walls it comes in and resets them, or gets sent in to die to a draco in mid- late game... if someone wants to send me some replays and sets that show this thing to be viable then please do
**enough said**

Not here to correct, but I do have a few replays to illustrate what Crobat's Taunt+Super Fang set is capable of doing. It's a pretty good stallbreaker with Taunt and its amazing speed tier. While it's far from perfect, or even good, I feel like C+ is a fine rank for it, and don't see a need for it to drop anymore.

Replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-970622483

While the battle is albeit low ladder, and my opponent didn't play that well, Crobat was still instrumental in the matchup, as it kept Tentacruel from getting Tspikes up vs my team, as well as chipping it greatly for late game. It also prevented Gengar from getting a substitute, which was key to getting hydreigon in to revenge kill it.

I'll try and send you some more replays, because all the ones I had, Crobat didn't actually click super fang 90% of the time, so I dont think it'd be worthwhile to put there. Anyways, Crobat is worth C+ and should stay there due to it's Taunt+Super Fang set. While we should never raise Crobat unless Loom comes back or something, I don't think we should drop it either, because nothing has changed against Crobat's favor.

tl;dr - keep Crobat in C+ and don't use defog bat plz its bad