USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V3



Hydreigon from A+ to S : Strongly Agree

Hydreigon is trully amazing in the current metagame. As Hogg said, even if Hydreigon may not have the Sweeping potential of Scizor and Latias, it makes up its shortcomings by being one of the most versatile and splashable Pokemon in the tier. You need a good Choice Scarf user which can provide to your team Momentum ? Then pick Choice Scarf Hydreigon. You need a strong special Breaker ? Then opt for Choice Specs Hydreigon. It's not enough for you and you would like something to bother Stall team ? No trouble.. Hydreigon is there for you with its Stallbreaker set (Taunt, Roost, Dark Pulse, Draco Meteor with Life Orb or Dragonium Z) or its Wallbreaker set with Superpower. Oh sorry, you would like a lure ? Hmmm lemme think about it.. Gotcha ! Trust me, Z-Belch Hydreigon is what you need. What.. ? You want a Pokemon that can removes Entry Hazards ? Don't worry Hydreigon learns Defog and it's typing and ability allow it to be play in any kind of archetypes, from Offense to Stall !

For a couple of weeks, I've been testing Defog Dragonium Z Hydreigon and Taunt Dragonium Z Hydreigon and I have to admit that this 2 sets are really amazing atm. The first one allows Stall to have a good Defogger which can deal efficiently with Empoleon, Krookodile, Crawdaunt, Swampert, Aggron-Mega etc.. While the other gives to your team a way to bother Balance and Stall.




Just give back to Hydreigon its throne from ORAS
 
Quickly making noms on a bus ride home.

Celebi to A-
Celebi is really underprepared for in the current metagame. Ever since Serperior left the tier and Mega Venusaur received the banhammer, Celebi has been in a really good spot rn due to offensive grasses not being prepped for anymore. Nasty Plot in tandem to Natural Cure let’s Celebi be a useful stallbreaker and it even circumvents its weaknesses to Hydreigon with Dazzling Gleam to annihilate any variants that lack Scarf. Pretty strong mon that I think deserves to be among the A ranks.

Mega Steelix to B
Why is this monster not higher? Mega Steelix has solidified itself over Mega Aggron with quite a few positives. First off Sand Force is a much more useful ability to punish the common Hippo-Emp core atm, an Electric immunity to prevent Mega Mane from gaining momentum, an even greater amount of Physical bulk that lets it stomach even super effective physical attacks, and it has become a valuable member of semistall currently with all of these attributes combined over Mega Aggron. Give it a rise.

Diancie to B-
Diancie is literally a hidden gem. It abuses the rise of Hydra and the lack of reliable recovery is mitigated by its surprising amount of longetivity with its gargantuan defenses. It also has enough in offensive stats to still do a considerable amount of damage with uninvested Diamond Storm and Moonblast. It offers nice role compression with its unique defensive typing and Heal Bell with Stealth Rock. While it cannot win against common opposing sr setters, it has enough positive traits that I think a rise could happen.

I’m glad that I could post my thoughts on the current meta!

Also gonna mention that Hydreigon should be S. That fucker’s versatility is insane.

Edit: CM Celebi is bad wtf am I doing
 
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Best thing about Celebi its how solid is against balance and more fat builds oriented, their ability to break the unaware mons in the tier, the ability to beat annoying threats such Suicune and Mega-Slowbro in 1vs1, the decline of volturn teams (mega-bee being less popular, people using sd scizor and np ape/slack off ape over choice variants that generally runs u-turn).

Its enough fast to threat and sweep many teams, their speed is great to outrun threats such Hydreigon, Kommo-O, Altaria-M, Kyurem, Moltres and Togekiss.

Biggest problem that faces Celebi its that generally requires support as for example Pursuit support to trap Latias or other lures and mons to support Celebi, main problem with Celebi its hard to pick between Dazzling Gleam and Earth Power. You need Dazzling Gleam to hit Hydreigon which otherwise beats you easily and its a top 3 pokemon in the current tier but without Earth Power you have generally a worse coverage (outside of hit Hydreigon which its obviously big) because thanks to Earth Power you hits Klefki, Empoleon, Muk-A, Mega-Aggron, Metagross and hits harder Doublade. This is why needs support, when using Celebi you need to deal with (1) Latias and (2) depending on your last move, you need either deal with Hydreigon using other lures or using lures for the bulky steels and bulky special defensive tanks such Muk-A. So unless you're facing a Hydreigon team, Earth Power is better move but even if you faces a Hydreigon team they might use another Celebi check as Klefki or Empoleon to check Celebi.
 

Hogg

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A Celebi set I've been enjoying lately is Z-Leaf Storm. It can power through a lot of things that other moves can't, so you aren't forced into the forever-difficult choice of picking what walls you with Earth Power versus Dazzling Gleam. It also means that Celebi can hit hard unboosted and right off the bat, which has always been one of the biggest drawbacks to Celebi.

As far as power goes, +2 Z-Leaf Storm blows through Hydreigon (guaranteed to kill after rocks), does 65-75 to 252/252+ Aggron-Mega, and can even power through Lati with some chip (70-82). That can free you up to run things like Recover or HP Fire that Celebi often would love to carry but struggles to incorporate.

Here's the set I used in my Snake game. It has definitely become one of my favorite Celebi sets. NP + Recover is really brutal against fat, making it very hard to wear Celebi down.

VIVID (Celebi) @ Grassium Z
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- Recover
 
Hogg briefly mentioned this but I want to bring more attention to the big bird.
1537929274763.png

Altaria-Mega to A.
It's no surprise that even after Venusaur-Mega, this mon has been struggling to assert itself offensively. I honestly don't think the dragon dance set or even the raw special attacker is great right now. The 3 attacks set mentioned by Hogg might be worth a test, but that's not the main reason I wanted to make this VR post. The main reason, is that thing thing is such a indispensable defensive tool right now. In a meta where Hydreigon is clawing at the doors to the S-rank, Krook is still the best scarfer of the roost, Kommo-O is asserting it's dominance (Keep the Kommo-O to A-rank train going bois) And other breaking monsters like Band Crawdaunt and to a lesser degree Sharpedo-Mega are making themselves known to every fearful Hippo/Empo balance player out there right now, The pure defensive value of Altaria-Mega cannot be overstated. This thing is such a fantastic catch-all check to so many mons right now that arguably have little to no other switchins or dependable checks. Bulky Mega Altaria builds bring so much to a team right now it's not even funny. It's not going to give you bang for your buck anymore, there's just too much stopping it's pure offensive builds. But the warm, fluffy embrace of it's bulkier, defensive sets in an unforgiving meta of water, dark, and dragon breakers is certainly promising. And I think could Boost Altaria-Mega to A.
 
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Hogg briefly mentioned this but I want to bring more attention to the big bird.
View attachment 137625
Altaria-Mega to A.
It's no surprise that even after Venusaur-Mega, this mon has been struggling to assert itself offensively. I honestly don't think the dragon dance set or even the raw special attacker is great right now. The 3 attacks set mentioned by Hogg might be worth a test, but that's not the main reason I wanted to make this VR post. The main reason, is that thing thing is such a indispensable defensive tool right now. In a meta where Hydreigon is clawing at the doors to the S-rank, Krook is still the best scarfer of the roost, Kommo-O is asserting it's dominance (Keep the Kommo-O to A-rank train going bois) And other breaking monsters like Band Crawdaunt and to a lesser degree Sharpedo-Mega are making themselves known to every fearful Hippo/Empo balance player out there right now, The pure defensive value of Altaria-Mega cannot be overstated. This thing is such a fantastic catch-all check to so many mons right now that arguably have little to no other switchins or dependable checks. Bulky Mega Altaria builds bring so much to a team right now it's not even funny. It's not going to give you bang for your buck anymore, there's just too much stopping it's pure offensive builds. But the warm, fluffy embrace of it's bulkier, defensive sets in an unforgiving meta of water, dark, and dragon breakers is certainly promising. And I think could Boost Altaria-Mega to A.
I like enough Defense and HP on Altaria to live CB Scizor's Bullet Punch after Rocks and OHKO back with Flamethrower.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
21a17b7f37e7f7d55bce63f676e076f6bbf1f2cc_00.gif
Hydreigon from A+ to S : Strongly Agree
I also strongly agree on Hydreigon up to S.

The high versatility and splashability of this mon makes it very amazing in the current metagame. Being able to run many many Sets with a great viability: Scarf, Specs, Darkium Z, Dragonium Z and even Luresets like the Z-Belch Set.
It has a good enuff speedtier to outpace a good amount of pkmn in the current meta and also has a decent bulk to withstand moves, its one of the best switchins to Moltres, which sees recently alot of Usage and Popularity.
It also is able to run utility moves like U-Turn pretty well, Roost to heal itself up to be able to switchin later again on a threat it should check and to be honest Defog isn't bad either on this mon.
 
Virizion from UR < C-


Virizion.gif



I Strongly agree with this mon being ranked, but i'll add something that maybe you guys are forgetting, and is also a very cool and underrated option to be running.

Virizion @ Psychium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Zen Headbutt

This thing is simply huge, once Amoongus like switch-in hard at Virizion you literally catch it off guard and kills that. Other point, Tentacruel may try to haze Virizion what he can't cuz is killed such as Amoongus,Nidoking, Crobat and doing a not bad damage to M-Altaria compared to Z-Edge

Here go the calcs

+2 252 Atk Virizion Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 488-576 (112.9 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Virizion Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Tentacruel: 312-368 (85.9 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (Calc without boost)
252 Atk Virizion Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 336-396 (110.8 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Virizion Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 328-386 (105.4 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Virizion Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 249-293 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

With that said, yeah, Virizion deserves a place in the sun
 
virizion.png
to C somewhere: Disagree.

Alright so I've wanted to talk about this for a while but I just talked about it on the discord for the most part because I was too lazy to write a post but yeah. So anyway I feel Virizion should stay Unranked, at least for now.

Why use it?

This is Virizion's main problem imo. Why should I use it over something like Decidueye, or even Celebi? I've attempted to built a team around this thing about 10 times and I'm not sure if its just my problem, but I cannot build this thing without changing it to another Grass type that fits better. It also suffers competition from the other Fighting types that are really good right now such as its musketeer brethren, Kommo-o, and Infernape. I am aware Virizion has a niche in not being revenged by Krook, however Krook is very easy to exploit once it's locked and even if it revenges 3 out of the 4 mons I mentioned, another mon can come in and wreck havoc. I'm not a fan of Decidueye, however I do believe it's just better in every way aside from Justified. Not only does it have its own powerful Z-move, but also has higher attack so it can do actual damage without a boost. I feel like SD is done better by Decidueye and CM is just bad and at that point you should just use Celebi.

Sorry if this was kinda short and/or rushed, I just wanted to get this out so yeah. Thanks to Sage for discussing with me in the UU discord and stuff.
 

Sage

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VR Update 10/2/18! We've reached past the midpoint of Smogon Snake Draft, and to the conclusion of UU Open. Here is a somewhat sizeable ranking for you to view!

Rises
A+ -> S
A -> A+
A- -> A
A- -> A
A- -> A
B+ -> A-
B+ -> A-
B- -> B
B- -> B
C+ -> B
C -> C+
C- -> C+
UR -> C-


Drops
A- -> B+
B+ -> B
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
C+ -> C
C- -> UR

Rises Reasoning
  • While it may not have the same ability to outright sweep through games on its own like fellow S ranks Latias and Scizor, Hydreigon still distinguishes itself from any other Pokemon in A+ with its amazing versatility and consistency among sets. It has risen as the most reliable offensive defogger available, has recently seen further exploration in tournament play as far as Z-move potential goes, and still retains prowess as both a fantastic revenge killer or breaker with either Scarf or Specs. It has also showcased its ability to adapt to nearly any form of counterplay, has influenced several important metagame trends, and is among the most splashable Pokemon in the entire tier, which fully justifies S at this stage.
  • Terrakion has maintained its status as one of the downright scariest wallbreakers for any archetype to deal with, even despite the adaptations that have been made to it since Gliscor’s departure. Its typing and the consistency of both its Swords Dance and Choice Band sets allows it to put immediate pressure on foes if it can just get into play, making it one of the most overtly threatening offensive Pokemon around. Its sheer offensive prowess and influence of trends such as Gligar and Palossand’s increased viability is testament to its place in the metagame, which is best represented in A+.
  • Mega Altaria has made a bit of a comeback, with its typical Dragon Dance sets increasing their usage after a fair amount of time and sets such as Roost + 3 Attacks also making a splash and proving worthwhile. Overall, the offensive/defensive benefits of its typing and the constraint it puts on the current metagame are more notable than they’ve been for a good while.
  • Slowbro and its Mega Evolution have both risen to become true mainstays of the metagame, thanks to their fantastic defensive utility and individual benefits to being used. Both have had excellent showings in Smogon Snake Draft particularly, with Slowbro even edging out its main competition as a pivot in Alomomola on several bulkier builds. Overall, both have seen large increases in usage and viability and have become very important parts of the metagame, making A more than fair for the time being.
  • Celebi is in a pretty great place in the metagame with solid responses to most of the highly notable trends. It takes advantage of popular defensive presences like Hippowdon and the Slowbros, enjoys Hydreigon’s decreased usage of Choice Scarf in favor of its other sets, and has been making serious waves with its Psychium Z + Dazzling Gleam sets, which still allows it to muscle past most Steel-types while hitting several Dragon-types that it previously had shaky matchups against. It’s just got a lot going for it right now and is certainly the tier’s best current option for an offensive Grass-type.
  • Infernape is rising back into the A ranks due to a two subrank drop being a bit of a knee-jerk reaction and, more importantly, the strength of its Nasty Plot set, which proved to be pretty pivotal in several later games in UU Open. Its room for innovation is also at an all-time high, with Choice Band and mixed sets seeing some fair usage and options such as Life Orb + Slack Off seeing more exploration and proven worth in tours.
  • Crawdaunt has seen a fair increase in relevance over the past few weeks, largely thanks to being able to abuse several prominent defensive Pokemon, such as the Slowbros, Hippowdon, and Empoleon, for free turns. It’s a great general wallbreaker with a few sets showing more viability than earlier on, justifying a small upgrade in rank.
  • Mega Steelix has been getting a lot more love lately, which has allowed it to better showcase its strengths over Mega Aggron and cement a solid place for itself in the metagame for the first time in a while. Its advantages in the form of a stronger Earthquake, an Electric immunity, acting as a stronger Latias check, and being able to pull off a solid Curse + Gyro Ball set have all become much more pronounced in recent weeks.
  • Gligar has cemented itself as a strong defensive pick that checks a variety of large metagame presences. It’s been successfully fitted on stall and balanced builds alike, utilizing its several unique defensive attributes to combat Fighting-types as well as Mega Aerodactyl, Stakataka, Nihilego, and some Scizor sets. At this stage, its increased presence makes a two-subrank rise appropriate.
  • Mienshao’s made a significant resurgence with its Assault Vest set proving to be extremely worthwhile in several recent tournament matches. Its solid damage output, decent utility with Knock Off and U-turn, and decent synergy with Slowbro and Amoonguss allows it to offset its flaws some and make a valuable contribution to regen cores. While it can still struggle breaking past several defensive presences, it’s gotten better enough for C+ to be justifiable.
  • Seismitoad’s defensive sets have been underrated in recent months, though in reality their perks have proven to be not far off from Swampert’s in terms of usefulness and relevance. The Water immunity is currently a huge perk it has going for it that can allow it to take advantage of Empoleon, the Slowbros, and Volcanion really well, distinguishing it from its falling competition. It's not implausible to soon see a meta where Seismitoad is more viable than Swampert.
  • Placement in the rankings had been suggested for Articuno a few times in the past, and after some adequate experimentation on our part it’s finally finding a home for itself in C-! Its typing and access to both Heal Bell and Defog are massive boons for some stalls, allowing it to take advantage of the several popular bulky Water-types running around while checking Pokemon like Hydreigon, Celebi, and Nidoking well, which accumulates nicely and turns Articuno into a decent option on several bulkier teams.
Drops Reasoning
  • Alomomola has been less of an automatic slot on Stall then it has been in the past, with rising Slowbro really giving it competition as a bulky Water-type Regenerator pivot, and even in Balance and Bulky Offense Blissey has been thriving much more lately. While still potent, a drop to B+ better reflects how often you can expect it.
  • Swampert as a Stealth Rock user has lost a lot of its luster. Seismitoad is more needed as Water-types like Empoleon have dominated the meta, Manectric is more easily able to pressure it, and threats like Terrakion and Cobalion are more able to run sets that can break it now that Gliscor has risen.
  • Pidgeot isn’t really needed in teambuilding right now, its niche as a Flying-type would be its access to a consistent Hurricane + U-turn combination, but that is more often passed over for the more direct benefits Flying-types like Moltres and Togekiss provide, both defensively and offensively. Rock-types like Nihilego, Stakataka, and even now Diancie are continuing to get better as well.
  • Rhyperior’s moment in the meta came and went, and it is now sorely out of spot with the B ranks, Manectric’s freedom to run HP Grass significantly hurts it, as does Aerodactyl’s ability to more easily run Aqua Tail over Ice Fang. Flying types it checked well like Pidgeot and Crobat are on the way down, and it struggles to find switches against even Hippo / Empo balances.
  • Sylveon’s reliance on Wish leaves it much less flexible than Florges, who can adapt to the needs of the team around it. Its slightly better mixed bulk and power is not enough to keep it on par with Florges in B, who has a higher speed stat allowing it to use Hidden Power Fire more easily, as well as it being able to run Synthesis/Wish.
  • Mantine isn’t a great remover right now, often being Toxiced or straight up forced out by common Stealth Rock users, and Terrakion rising makes it less valuable as a Fighting check then when Infernape and Cobalion were the main two you had to worry about.
  • Necrozma hasn’t been able to find a set that really solidifies it in the tier, with the Stealth Rock set being the closest it has to a flagship set. We don’t believe that is worth a place in the B ranks at this time, along with other Psychic-types like Slowbro and Reuniclus having picked up as bulky setup users that either bring much more defensive utility or have better matchups vs. fat teams.
  • Darmanitan struggles to find any reason for it to be slotted into a team, with Infernape almost entirely outclassing it. It’s still usable as a hard hitting nuke, but should more often than not not be considered for serious usage except on Hyper Offense and Sun teams.
  • Porygon’s niche as a defensive pokemon is basically non existent at this point, and it isn’t even seen much as an Aurora Veil threat due to its Z-Conversion set as that playstyle has mostly died out. What it brings to the tier isn’t worth being ranked anymore.

Stay Unranked:

Virizion: For the least used of the musketeers, other grass types are far more useful, it has pathetic power, allowing a Scizor to boost on it even at +2, Celebi and Decidueye are both more potent offensively. Cobalion, despite its mediocre offenses, has a fantastic defensive typing for the meta allowing it to thrive. Its access to a slightly higher speed tier and better special bulk are not worth the numerous drawbacks and flaws it has compared to its competition.


Comfey: Comfey is certainly unique, but its niche is not viable enough for it to be ranked. It requires an immense amount of support for what exactly? It is hard walled by a plethora of things needing Calm Mind and Choice Specs at the same time, along with Draining Kiss, Giga Drain, Aromatherapy, Hidden Power Fire, Synthesis, and U-turn to even begin fighting its weaknesses. Scizor remains everpresent, you struggle to even dent Steel-types or bulky Poisons like Nihilego. Your entire team must function around it (usually with Magneton + Pursuit + another steel breaker), and more often than not forgoes key defensive building blocks. Comfey won't be ranked anytime in the near future.
 

Hilomilo

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Thanks for a great update post Sage! I'm here with your discussion points, so enjoy!

Discussion Points

Kommo-o A- -> A: A rise has been supported pretty heavily throughout the last couple pages of the thread, though the ranking council is still torn as to what to do with Kommo-o. The consensus is that it isn't quite as strong as Mega Altaria currently, due to its worse longevity and struggle with four-moveslot syndrome across all of its sets. It still does have insane versatility and Z-move access going in its favor, however, but whether or not this is enough to push it to A is something worth discussing for a little while longer, especially considering the presence of several other Dragon-types capable of revenge killing it.

Kyurem A- -> B+: Kyurem hasn't gotten worse directly, but it could be argued that its niche in teambuilding is less needed now. With Gliscor and Serperior gone, its Ice-stab is slightly less useful, as well as Mamoswine dropping, who brings a more distinct niche as an offensive Ice-type in strong priority and the capacity to use Stealth Rock. While this drop may not be needed, it isn't out of the question, especially considering Kyurem's relatively low overall usage.

Alolan Muk B+ -> B: Recent trending offensive threats take advantage of Alolan Muk's one dimensionality even more than before. Terrakion is especially important, but even new threats like Mamoswine and the rising Crawdaunt all get free switches on it at least once. It can still provide fairly invaluable utility, however, maintaining its status as one of the better Latias answers the metagame has to offer while combating Hydreigon and rising Psychium Z Celebi sets quite well.

Jellicent B -> B+: Jellicent has been a super valuable pick in tournament play lately, finding itself on a lot of bulky teams as a way to pressure opposing defensive Pokemon and check key fat breakers like Lucario. It's typing is very useful for checking a multitude of Water-, Fighting-, and Fire-types, too. Taunt sets are also making a splash due to taking on several balance staples, like Florges, the Slowbros, and Empoleon, very well, though its struggle to fit every move it'd like on a set, occasionally middling physical bulk, and weakness to Hydreigon are also to be considered when evaluating its rank.

Crobat B -> B-: Crobat continues to nose dive from its peak relevance in gen 7 where Grass-types were everywhere. The offensive grass-types that do exist right now in Celebi and Rotom-C are both immediately threatening to Crobat on the switch, and Rock-types like Terrakion, Nihilego, and defensive Stakataka rising hurts its usage elsewhere. It still has utility as a revenge killer of Fighting-types due to its fantastic Speed tier, however, while Super Fang + Taunt sets are likely in need of some more exploration, making a hypothetical drop a tricky decision.

Mega Blastoise B- -> B: Blastoise has picked up some steam, seeing decent usage in Smogon Snake Draft as well as UU open. It tends to have a good matchup vs prototypical Hippo / Empo teams, as well as being a spinner that threatens rising defensive Pokemon like Jellicent and Slowbro. Its susceptibility to a lot of faster threats and longevity issues do hamper it, however, which brings potentially keeping it B- into question.

Chesnaught B- -> B: Our favorite knight has seen lots of usage on bulky balance and semistall teams looking for a different option than Klefki as a Spike user, as well as being a useful blanket physical check for a lot of threatening Pokemon, like Choice Bnad Scizor and Cobalion. It also appreciates the increased presences of Crawdaunt and Krookodile. However, it is still easily punished by several top threats of the metagame, like Latias, Mega Altaria, and Togekiss, and can have a bit of a hit-or-miss typing at times given its several common weaknesses.

Hope you guys enjoyed! Thanks for the great discussion we've seen these past couple weeks. Keep it up, stay kind, and happy posting! :)
 
Alright, so I was planning to make a VR post on various waters of the metagame (Since the meta seems to be centering around waters right now) even before the VR updated, I might as well make the post now, especially since two of my original nom ideas actually become discussion points.
So first, I'll address the actual discussion points then make a few noms of my own.
1538458259145.png
to B+: Agree. This thing is a fantastic defensive tool right now that also makes itself handy against opposing defensive builds. Something that can soak Hydro Pumps, break Hippo/Empo, and check other threats like Cobalion and Scizor in the same slot all at once really eases teambuilding constraints.
1538458386392.png
to B: Agree. This thing is fantastic now. Another mon that's very effective against Hippo/Empo balances, and a number of other bulky waters like the aforementioned Jellicent. This and a decent matchup against the dragons like Hydreigon running around actually distinguishes it from fellow water breakers, it especially distinguishes itself from it's most dominant competition in Volcanion and Primarina that struggle more with domninant trends like Jellicent and Empoleon respectively. And the decent dragon matchup distinguishes it from a number of other waters in general.

Now here are a few weird noms of my own:
1538460244126.png
to B-: Sage said it's not implausable to see a meta where Seismitoad rises above Swampert for good reason. With the Musketeers being full-time fightinium Z users, the dominance of HP grass on electric types, and other trends sparked by the Gliscor rise, Swampert has been in a frankly awful position. I haven't seen it put to good use on a team in some time. And the rising dominance of water-typed attackers has in many cases made Swampert seem even less enticing than Seismitoad. I think this thing's fall could continue to B-.

1538457867922.png
to B-: This thing rose just recently on account of it's defensive set being really useful lately, but I think it's OFFENSIVE set is also pretty unexplored right now. I've been tinkering with many options on it's offensive builds, like focus blast to make a weird Daunt offensive check and to stop Hydra from taking advantage of it, the Classic Sludge Wave to discourage grasses like Tsareena, Celebi, and Rotom-C and threaten fairies like Altaria-Mega and Primarina, This thing even gets grass knot to give it a funky matchup against a number of opposing waters, heck, it even makes a fantastic check to itself if it has this move under it's belt. I also think it's offensive builds are very effective against the Hippo/Empo balances dominating the meta right now, as it can scare both the Hippo and the Empo in one mon and many other mons commonly seen on these types of balances. Water immunity is fantastic right now and it has all the right coverage options to run a pretty bothersome special attacking set. I think it's underrated offensive set could bump it just a little higher in ranking, possibly to B-.

1538460768814.png
to B-: Another water breaker that's kinda like Crawdaunt that can take advantage of the Balance trends right now. Some like myself might even argue that it does the swords dance and dragon dance setup sets better than the aforementioned Crawdaunt due to more managable bulk and speed for a setup set. But Crawdaunt's clear preference for a band right now anyways might mean there's not even that much competition for a setup water breaker to be discussed. Feraligatr is a strong setup mon that has moves like the powerful Sheer Force Liquidation, which hits like a freight train. Mix this with options like Sheer Force Crunch to even hit Bros and Jellicent hard when boosted, and superpower to hit Empoleon and mons like Hydreigon, and you have a pretty potent setup sweeper that picks at a lot of trends. It also has other options like Sheer Force Ice Punch and Aqua Jet to add some versatility to it's arsenal. I think these factors could nudge this mon into B-.

1538459147513.png
to C+: With the rising dominance of water breakers like Crawdaunt, Mega Sharpedo, and Mega Blastoise, Pyukumuku stands out much more among the unaware brothers. It's matchup against other waters has always been fantastic. Checking mons like Shark and Daunt in particular is very valuable right now. While the rise of Daunt's band set has been an unfortunate turn for Pyukumuku, it can still check it if it comes in on anything but a hard knock off, and is still a hard stop to any setup Daunt. Options like block and spite also give it some interesting matchups against opposing defensive builds and attest to it's versatility.

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to C+: For the first time, I can confidently say that the unaware brothers can share a rank. Water/Ground has been a very poor defensive typing lately, with the rise of HP grass on many electrics. Water/Ground also isn't doing it favors against the Crawdaunt resurgence and other trends like Mega Shark. It's lack of special defense also tremendously hurts it right now since many common breakers at this moment are special or mixed. It also doesn't help that Quagsire struggles to fend off the fighting trend. Its not a great Infernape check since Nasty Plot and Mixed are two of the best sets right now, it can struggle with Terrakion's raw breaking power through just decent defense, and even Cobalion can catch it off guard now with it's rising CM special set. The fact that some stall teams from what I've seen are even forgoing an unaware user altogether in favor of Mega Slowbro should also be a testament to this mon's struggles in the current metagame.
 
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Super late but yay VRs out. Time to give some of my worthless thoughts on the VR!
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To A: Strongly Agree
This thing is a literal monster in the UU metagame. Super splashable and versatile and its ability to basically do everything at least at a rate. Even though its not the best at everything such as Cobalion being a better sweeper or Terrakion being a better breaker, but the fact that its sets vary so much, you can't just assume a Kommo-o's set and neither can you "Check all its sets" with a single mon or core. Thats what makes it a definitely a A ranked pokemon.


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to B+:Agree
Just another solid bulky water in the tier. Jellicent may not be in the ranks of its better water type cousins in UU, but it still justifies itself a place among Crawdaunt and Florges. Jellicent as Smallsmallrose stated its able to handle defensive builds as well as checking mons consistent in the tier such as Scizor and Cobalion. Jellicent might be inferior to its water type relatives, but certaintly serves up a great role in the tier.


Will probably make more posts soon but due to time constraints I'll be holding off for now, probably during the next week or so.
 

Adaam

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I think Jellicent is getting a tad bandwagoned. It’s ability to break passive balance cores is not as appealing when you realize it does so via death by 10,000 cuts. Why use Jellicent and spend 10+ turns spamming Taunt and Wisp when I can just run a Mamoswine or Prim and break instantly? This is especially prevalent when the opponent can simply switch around AloBliss while you slowly PP stall yourself.

It’s benefit over traditional breakers would be it’s neat typing, but it’s bulk is so bad that it can’t check half the things you want your Water-type and Fighting resist to check (Aero, Terrak, Mamo). This is compounded with the fact that it needs a bunch of speed investment to creep Florges which otherwise snuffs any “balance breaking” attempts. Putting Jellicent above Swampert and on par with things like Rotom-H and Chandelure is too much IMO.
 

ehT

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Honestly, I've never liked Crobat. It's just kinda... there. Skystrike is scary for offense and it can U-turn I guess, but even with its Speed it doesn't really beat anything that any other Bird doesn't beat already, and it's piss weak to boot. This thing just doesn't have a real niche right now, and never really did outside of the weird time known as Serp meta. Drop this.
Please raise this. In my experience Turtle HO is actually super solid right now cause of its good balance matchup. Turtle has a bit of opportunity cost over Primarina, but I think Spin + its stupid bulk is enough to only put them a few subranks apart, since its ability to force more than one trade makes it a lot more friendly for HO. Watch for my post on this guy in the discussion thread Soon™! Speaking of Primarina:
I think Primarina should move back to A. I feel like its drop was a kneejerk response to the huge spike in Empoleon balance, but I think Prima has adapted to that pretty convincingly. Ignoring the fact that Specs Prima is strong enough to wear down Empoleon long-term and still kill what it needs to, patching up these tougher matchups isn't that hard cause several of Primarina's best partners are rising stars right now. Kommo-o, Nasty Plot Infernape, and Terrakion all core with Primarina really well, so it doesn't take much planning or positioning for Prima offense to get everything in range.


✨Other stuff ✨
Raise Kommo-o: Ridiculous versatility + balance breaking power, best offensive Rocker IMO
Don't Drop Kyurem: Ice typing is still broken + SubRoost is broken, stop sleeping on this mon I swear to God
Drop Muk: This mon blows use literally any other trapper
 
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Alright I’ll go say this right here:

Kyurem should not drop!
In the wise words of SmallSmallRose it has the Tornadus syndrome where it’s actually really good in this current meta it’s just that no one uses it. And why should you sleep on Kyurem? SubRoost is still a devastating set that PP stalls Blissey since the sub can take 2 Seismic Tosses while being able to fish for Freezes. If anything Kyurem not being used works in its favor because underprepared teams can end up getting demolished if they don’t play right. Don’t sleep on the dragon and don’t drop it:

Crobat to B-
A mediocre mon with an excellent speed tier. It’s a bad defogger because it loses to almost every relevant setter. It could do a stallbreaking Super Fang+Taunt set but other Taunt users like Hydreigon are superior due to them not being almost dead weight in other matchups. Oh and it has a fast U-turn and a kind of weak Brave Bird after it uses its Z-Crystal. These qualities just aren’t good enough by B’s standards.

Unsure about Jellicent
I’ve had a bit of success with Jellicent but Adaam does make a good point. It is one of the more reliable Scizor answers which is already a good quality, but it does seem like you’re self PP stalling yourself against an opposing fat mon. Why should you be using up all of your PP against a Blissey when you can just break it with a Heracross in one fell swoop? At least Kyurem still has some great offensive pressure combined with its bulk and it could ease prediction a lot more with a Substitute. I think that Jellicent rising or not can go either way for it currently since a lot of metagame trends are in its favor but for now I’ll abstain on this one.

That’s all I have for today!
 
I agree with Crobat being ranked at B-, If you checks top ranks (S and A ranks) what does even checks Crobat? All common fight types have ways to break Crobat atm, offensively Crobat its not a threat cause most people runs flying checks because Togekiss and Moltres are huge threats so people generally deals well with Crobat. Most common grasses types beats Crobat (Celebi & Rotom-C), the only common one that is stopped by Crobat its Amoonguss and people dont have problems dealing with Crobat so you're not going forward anyways.

Traditional things that Crobat used to check are less used in this metagame, as Muk-A, Heracross, Mega-Bee (unseen). Serperior rise to OU and Mega-Venusaur got banned.

Jellicent to stay in B rank. I think Jellicent is good but is more of a trend atm this is why I disagree with being ranked at B+. Personally I think some pokemon from B ranks deserves to be ranked at B- rank (Bronzong, Raikou and Crobat - mentioned above).

Kommo-o A- -> A. Agree. Kommo is excellent but a bit unexplored so I can agree with Kommo-o being ranked at A- too tho but in terms of potential Kommo-o its A material, super versatile and fits well on any kind of offense/bo/balance build with many options to run.

Alolan Muk B+ -> B. I'm not too sure on this but probably I should say that I agree with B, seems alright.
Althought A-Muk is a good anti-trend rn cause beats all those Celebi that runs Psychium-Z + Dazzling Gleam in the current metagame.

Mega Blastoise B- -> B. Definitely agree. Solid coverage and power/bulk makes Mega Blastoise an excellent offensive tank which is great because you can make some good trades, bulkier than Starmie and stronger than Tentacruel, great pick for bulky offensive builds where making solid trades is key to win.
 
So shifts came out, and here's what's interesting:

Zeraora moved from OU to UU
Bisharp moved from OU to UU
Latios-Mega moved from OU to UU
Latios moved from OU to UU

I'm not going to talk about these mons since the shifts just came out a few hours ago, but I'm interested to see how these mons will impact the VR and the tier in general. Btw, Arcanine finally dropped, so please remove it from the D ranks.
 
Crobat from B to B-: Agree

This thing kinda sucks. Grasses don't run the metagame like they used to, the existing metagame has become incredibly hostile towards it, and, most notably, almost everything that ended up dropping absolutely bops Crobat. It's still got a hint of viability, but B- really represents this best. It's not what it used to be.

Kommo-O to A: Very Strongly Agree

You name an offensive-esque set and Kommo-O can do it. Rocker. Sweeper. Physical wallbreaker. Special wallbreaker. It can do all this. It has a great movepool on both ends of the spectrum, it has very balanced stats, and though it doesn't appreciate some trends right now it's still an absolute behemoth whose sheer versatility would be well-represented in A.

Kyurem to B+: Kinda Disagree

It receives a fair bit of competition from Mamoswine as a powerful Ice-type attacker, but SubRoost Kyurem is awesome right now and that's a set Mamoswine doesn't have access to. This niche alone should keep it in the A-ranks, in my opinion, considering it still has those offensive sets in the back. It's also being prepared for significantly less and this means it has a much easier time beating an assortment of teams that thought they were prepared for everything.

Primarina to A: Strongly Agree

I don't think this should've dropped. It's still a phenomenal wallbreaker and that hasn't really changed even when the meta around it has. A is a much better representation of its usefulness in the metagame.

I know we shouldn't discuss the new rises since, well, they're new and all, but if Latios remains in this tier it should be S and it shouldn't be very difficult to see why. It does everything Latias does offensively even better and the extra Special Attack lets it score so many crucial 2HKOs and OHKOs Latias cannot even hope to score. Unless it's banned there's no reason for it to not be S.

Also, remove Arcanine from D since people have finally realized it's a shitmon and it didn't get some randomly high amount of low-ladder usage keeping it in UU.
 

Hilomilo

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Arcanine and D rank have been removed from the OP, and Bisharp, Latios, Mega Latios, and Zeraora have all been added to the New Pokemon Rank. The metagame is still extremely fresh and, due to the likelihood of an upcoming council vote, subject to changing more from where it is now. I'd encourage that we all hold off on posting for the next few days because of this. In the mean time enjoy the metagame and make sure you've taken some time to familiarize yourself with everything before nominating anything new. Thanks for the patience, and keep up the solid discussion!
 
Hello UU. I know that some powerful toys dropped and the metagame has yet to settle but Id like to make a nom I feel pretty adamant about. The following Pokemon doesnt particularly match up great against Latios/Mega-Latios, however, it has some excellent qualities that will remain intact no matter the result of that whole business.

B -> B+

The ban of Gliscor heavily incentivized Pokemon such as Mega-Manectric (amongst a few others) to drop their ice coverage (oftentimes for grass coverage) to beat Ground-types. Due to its self-sufficient ability, large supportive utility in Defog, Stealth Rock, U-Turn and Knock Off as well ginormous mixed bulk and passable offensive pressure Gligar fits on a large variety of teams ranging from Bulky Offense to Stall. Moreover Gligar is also very well geared to take on Zeraora without Hidden Power Ice, a tech whose use is largely specifically hitting Gligar. Seeing the recent metagame developments and the fact that Zeraora isnt on the ban radar I think Gligar deserves a rise!

:blobthumbsup:
 
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So, with Zeraora officially released in UU land, its time to give this cool cat a rank. Its tricky ranking this thing right away, since it's such a versatile mon who's only had a Latios-filled weekend's worth of experimentation. But even at first glance, this thing has many options and sets that tip most of our sturdy electric checks. Even stars of the last meta like Hippowdon and Palossand aren't going to worm their away around this thing as easily as they did Mega Manectric. The fact this mon is a great, fast mixed attacker with so many options makes me think its already A rank material even with how little time we spent with it. Held back by 4MSS and generally being a worse Scizor check than Manectric are some highlights of how this thing isn't the ultimate electric everyone immediately thought it was going to be. Some other holdups are a lack of immediate power and while it's bulk is good for what it is, it isn't anything to write home about. In my time using and fighting it, it doesn't seem like the electric check everyone thought it would be. The Rotom Brothers punish it with secondary STAB quite easily, Mane can do upwards to 60 with overheat unless bulk is invested into it, And Raikou (While probably not going to be great in a meta with this thing anyways, still isn't quite hard checked by it) can do massive damage with coverage moves, especially if it lets Z Shadow Ball or Z Hyper Beam rip. It also fails to KO most electrics in return. It struggles to OHKO Manectric and Rotom-Heat with really much of anything. And it needs a max invested band or LO CC to KO Raikou. This is going to make those mons really obnoxious for those trying to use Zera as a primary electric check. For now, I think it's a very solid A rank mon, possibly A+ with further exploration. But in my personal experience I think this thing's ability to break, outclass other electrics, and check other electrics don't quite live up to the initial hype. Tell me what you guys think of Zera and the experiences you've had with it thusfar! Zera is officially in the tier now so discussion on it should free game.
 
Nominating Mega Beedrill to B+

I used Bee along with Zeraora for a fast VoltTurn core and I have to say it is very good. Now bee is able to pair with a faster and a more consistent volt switch user than the slower and more predictable rotoms, and the combination of speed and power (zeraora does not have the same immediate power with bee but has the more expansive movepool) have made a common and very fast scouting core which cannot be ignored. This makes me believe that Bee is worth being promoted.
 
Nominating Mega Beedrill to B+

I used Bee along with Zeraora for a fast VoltTurn core and I have to say it is very good. Now bee is able to pair with a faster and a more consistent volt switch user than the slower and more predictable rotoms, and the combination of speed and power (zeraora does not have the same immediate power with bee but has the more expansive movepool) have made a common and very fast scouting core which cannot be ignored. This makes me believe that Bee is worth being promoted.
I don't think that your argument really presents a case for Beedrill. It seems to me like you're nominating Beedrill because Zeraora can carry it.
 

yeezyknows

Banned deucer.
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B --> B+

Nasty Plot lucario, in my sincere opinion, is one of the best mons in the metagame as it stands. With gliscor gone, fighting type counterplay is limited largely to fairies and physical walls such as slowbro, hippowdon, and, to a degree, amoonguss. NP z-focus blast luke lights these mons up harder than an american GI in a rice paddy with a flamethrower circa 1968. The combination of boosted focus blasts, flash cannons, and vacuum waves is incredibly difficult to switch into or revenge, particularly as the tier's most prominent scarfers (hydreigon and krookodile) are both OHKOed by +2 vacuum wave. Lucario's combination of speed tier, special attack, priority, and the coverage allotted by its dual stabs makes an incredibly potent sweeper versus stall and balance, nearly singlehandedly being able to sweep these archetypes with hazards up.

Physical sets are also great, with LO/CB cc's and meteor mashes doing a ton to unprepared teams, but NP luc's ability to beat its counterplay is what truly makes it worthy of a rise.
 

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