USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V3

[Hilomilo]

5/22/19 Update! Thanks for the great discussions we've had! Lots of changes incoming. Things may get a little tricky to figure out in this thread with the Scizor suspect going on, though for now we decided that an update was needed due to a few things being fairly outdated at this stage. Here's what happened:

Changes

Rises

A+ -> S

A- -> A

B+ -> A-

B- -> B

B- -> B

B- -> B

C+ -> B

C+ -> B-

C+ -> B-

C+ -> B-

C+ -> B-

UR -> C-

UR -> C-

UR -> C-

Drops

A -> A-

A -> A-

B+ -> B

B -> B-

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

C+ -> C

C+ -> C

C -> C-

Rise Reasonings

• Mega Altaria has risen to fame in recent months as one of the tier’s most defining and prominent Pokemon. It develops ways around its counterplay, such as the use of Facade to work around Rotom-H, in addition to having the rare ability to completely turn games around on its own. Altaria has been a huge factor in the way several trends have recently shaped up, has had multiple different sets prove useful in the metagame, and is capable of utilizing its amazing typing and set of tools to warp the metagame around it. The way the tier has developed recently has definitely allowed it to become an S rank threat.
• Infernape’s flagship Nasty Plot set has surged in usage since Kommo-o’s ban, putting large amounts of pressure on the defensive metagame and bypassing conventional checks in Slowbro, Mega Altaria, and various bulky Water-types. Its high UUPL usage has allowed it to showcase its potency and establish itself as a dominant special sweeper and wallbreaker with relatively limited counterplay, making A rank quite reflective of its current presence and threat level.
• Doublade has become a popular pick on balances and offenses alike due to the amazing utility its typing and bulk provide in the current metagame. Functioning as a strong check to many popular Fighting-types while blanket checking significant portions of the metagame with its solid set of resistances has allowed it to offset its shortcomings to cement a firm and unique defensive niche for itself over other Steel-type choices.
• Diancie has slowly picked up as a Pokemon capable of providing BOs with solid role compression in the form of a rocker, Flying-type switch-in, Hydreigon answer, and blanket check to several popular threats in the tier, like Mega Altaria, Latias, and Mega Sharpedo. While it still runs into its fair share of flaws and requires some support to be used to its full potential, Diancie’s teambuildling value is at an all time high and a rise accurately reflects this.
• Froslass is rising to reflect the dominance of Froslass Spikes HO on the ladder. It’s the key contributor to the metagame’s most spammable offensive archetype, capable of providing massive utility beyond setting hazards thanks to its typing, Speed tier, and colorful utility movepool.
• Swampert has slightly returned to its former glory as a rocker thanks to its ability to hard check the tier’s dominant Electric-types again in addition to applying pressure to several common defoggers thanks to its typing. It can also put its solid bulk to use as a blanket check to physical attackers like Cobalion and Mamoswine, as well as a counter to the ever-present Mega Aerodactyl.
• Rhyperior and Seismitoad are also in much better current places as rockers, justifying rises to B and B-, respectively. Rhyperior’s utility is returning to the worth it once had, with its UUPL appearances showcasing the value its typing, matchup against several popular threats (mainly Electrics, Fires, Flying-types) and offensive presence for a rocker all have in the current metagame. While Seismitoad hasn’t gotten the same amount of attention, its typing has serious offensive and defensive benefits in the metagame given its ability to pressure several common defoggers while checking decent portions of the offensive metagame.
• Haxorus has another chance to shine as a Dragon Dance sweeper with Kommo-o, its former competition, having risen to OU. In addition to losing a Pokemon capable of outperforming it, Haxorus enjoys the benefits of its raw power and ability, which allow it to match up against stall reliably and smack Rotom-H with Earthquake. Whether it can further rise depends on the influence it will have moving forward, though an upgrade from C+ was definitely appropriate given recent trends.
• UUPL has allowed both Necrozma and Roserade to develop notable niches in the metagame, justifying their rises. Necrozma has showcased its offensive versatility well through the success of Calm Mind and Swords Dance sets, while Roserade’s offensive potency with its excellent coverage and utility with Sleep Powder have made it a star of most UUPL matches it’s appeared in. Despite their sparing usage on the ladder, both Pokemon have established enough potential to rise from C+.
• Ferroseed, Hoopa, and Porygon2 have all seen more exploration that has yielded niches worthy of usage in the metagame. Ferroseed has a very unique set of tools, including its typing and amazing utility options, that allow it to check a large portion of the metagame while reliably setting Spikes and maintaining longevity with Leech Seed. Its UUPL performances have also showcased its defensive potency incredibly. Hoopa has potential as a stallbreaker with plentiful ways of separating itself from its competition and the ability to pressure defensive builds immensely, which offsets its shortcomings enough for a rank. Porygon2 can function as a solid late-game cleaner with its omni-boosting sets, taking advantage of several popular threats to set up and proving troublesome to reliably revenge kill.

Drops Reasonings

• Empoleon doesn’t possess the same defensive presence it’s had in past iterations of the metagame. While it’s still a great option for a bulky defogger, there are plentiful wallbreakers capable of overpowering it and rockers capable of pressuring it. Its utility as a Flying-type check also suffers when most popular Flying-types can work around it, while the decreased popularity of Nihilego and Slowbro also hurts its overall defensive potency.
• Slowbro is another defensive Pokemon that, while still great, has lost some steam and is dropping to reflect that. It has less of a presence in tournaments than when it first rose to A, dominating Snake Draft at the time. The metagame has also developed more ways to work around it, such as Terrakion and Infernape more frequently running Rockium and Fightinium, respectively, as well as Altaria’s tendency to tack Facade on more of its sets than ever before.
• Zeraora has struggled to make a significant impact on the metagame and its traits are less consistently applicable to teams than those possessed by anything else in B+. With none of its sets proving particularly useful or crucial to any offensive team, its role in the metagame is relatively undefined. While Zeraora’s potential is still there, its moveset, power, and bulk issues have all hurt its identity and made it niche enough for a drop.
• Chesnaught’s defensive utility simply doesn’t compare to when it first rose to relevance, with Zeraora and Bisharp sitting at much higher usage then than now. It also struggles in a metagame full of popular threats it just invites in to abuse it, like Latias, Altaria, Togekiss, Celebi, and more.
• Salazzle, Tornadus, and Toxicroak are all dropping to C+ due to minimal relevance in the metagame alongside several trends harming their niches. Salazzle suffers massive competition from other NP users capable of checking Scizor much more effectively, setting up more easily, and matching up well against larger portions of the metagame. Its Toxic sets have also suffered from Gligar’s increased presence, as well as a lack of solid usage. Tornadus simply doesn’t receive enough usage anywhere for its niche to be proven worthy of keeping it in the B ranks. Its severe lack of defensive utility is also a pretty large detriment to it as a Flying-type in this metagame. Toxicroak’s potential is hurt by the rises of both Doublade and Gligar, which intensifies its already existing four-moveslot syndrome. Dry Skin is also harder to utilize given that several top Water-types, like Primarina and Mega Slowbro, can immensely pressure Toxicroak.
• Palossand’s usage has decreased some since it first became a pick for its ability to hard check Terrakion. It still does its job well, but ranking it at C more accurately reflects its niche and relevance in the metagame compared to other Ground-types.
• Snorlax doesn’t have any presence in the metagame and struggles to do its job when a large amount of the tier’s most popular Pokemon, including very potent Fighting-types in Terrakion, Cobalion, and Infernape, are capable of overwhelming it, statusing it, or complicating its ability to sweep. Self-destruct sets also lack the exploration needed to prove their niche.
• Gastrodon has a few very underrated niches, such as its ability to check Nidoking quite well, though it lacks too many standout qualities to warrant usage over other options, while its ability is hard to make use of given that most bulky Water-types it’d switch in on can either pressure it offensively or cripple it with Toxic. C- accurately reflects the small yet notable niches it currently has in the meta.

Discussion points will be in the next post. Enjoy!

 

[Hilomilo]

Discussion Points

Mega Slowbro A -> A- / regular Slowbro A- -> B+
The Slowbros haven’t had the same tournament success in UUPL that they did when they initially rose dramatically in the ranks. With several Pokemon having adapted to their presence, further dropping regular Slowbro and dropping Mega to A- has been a discussion point among the VR Council. Mega Slowbro’s self sustainability and ability to work around checks through options like CM + Ice Beam is not to be ignored, however.

Sylveon B -> B+ or Florges B+ -> B
Sylveon and Florges have long stayed separate in rank, though the current metagame may very well value the individual traits each brings equally. Florges’s higher customizability is still incredible, though Sylveon’s better physical bulk, ability to bypass Substitute, and better Wish passing capabilities have arguably put the two on an even playing field following Kommo-o’s rise to OU. Whether to rise Sylveon, drop Florges, or keep both where they are is worth discussing in more depth.

Lucario B+ -> B
Some VR council members have recently voiced support for a Lucario drop. Compared to the tier’s other Fighting-types, it can struggle to provide the same defensive utility or (at times) offensive potency given its lackluster Speed tier and bulk. It also suffers the competition Terrakion and Infernape provide as they continue surging in usage. Its potency is still great, however, with its raw power and typing allowing it to overwhelm threats like Mega Altaria and Primarina more easily than Infernape, which more consistently requires Z-moves to do so.

Mega Blastoise B -> B+
Mega Blastoise hasn’t been used a great deal, though its utility in the current metagame as a spinner with both solid bulk and offensive presence is undeniable. It can utilize its coverage to put heavy pressure on both offensive and defensive staples of the metagame, takes on Scizor more easily than many other offensive Water-types, and may be close enough in viability to fellow spinners Starmie and Tentacruel to warrant rising to the same rank.

Rotom-C B -> B-
A definite mixed bag in the current metagame, Rotom-C may struggle enough to warrant a drop. Amoonguss, Gligar, and Mega Altaria all trending hurts it significantly, while the utility Rotom-H and Mega Manectric can provide gives it more opportunity cost than ever before. It still has traits that as both a Grass- and Electric-type are pretty unique to it, and shares synergy with Pokemon like Moltres that Rotom-H doesn’t, though arguments in favor of a drop are stronger than they’ve ever been.

Heracross B- -> B
The metagame has recently been quite unkind to Heracross, though now it may be able to reclaim some of its former glory. While Kommo-o’s departure decreases its opportunity cost, Heracross also has the very valuable niche of having possibly the best matchup against Gligar of any other Fighting-type available. Despite breaking power, its lacking defensive utility compared to options like Infernape or Cobalion hurts it quite a bit, though a rise to B certainly has merit at this stage.

Roserade B- -> B
Roserade has gotten a lot of hype since its Poisonium Z + Sleep Powder set began picking up traction. The utility of fast sleep in addition to Roserade’s fantastic offensive presence in the current metagame has allowed it to cement more of a niche for itself than ever before. It still runs into its fair share of issues, however, such as its horrible frailty and struggles breaking a few prominent defensive Pokemon, such as Blissey and (depending on set) Gligar.

Feraligatr C+ -> B-
Feraligatr has been brought up by various VR council members as a Pokemon that, despite its lacking usage, has serious potential in the current metagame. Compared to its main competition in Crawdaunt, Feraligatr has less weaknesses and better Speed, which allows for more opportunities to set up and begin breaking. Its potency is also undeniable, given its access to the coverage necessary to break past the likes of Slowbro and Mega Altaria in one slot.

Nidoqueen C -> C+
Despite recently dropping two subranks, Nidoqueen is being brought up for a rise due to the solid usage it’s seen in the recent tournament scene, utilizing its tools quite well in UUPL. Its bulk and typing uniquely allow it to reliably answer to the tier’s prominent Electric-types and Terrakion in one slot while pressuring several defoggers and popular defensive picks thanks to its solid offensive presence. Its utility is worth exploring more, especially given the rise of several other Ground-type options.

Let's keep up the solid discussion and hope for a continuously evolving metagame moving forward! Be kind, and happy posting!

 

[Jaajgko]

Mega Slowbro A -> A- / regular Slowbro A- -> B+ -> Disagree
I agree with Mega-Slowbro being one rank higher than regular bro but dropping both seems too much as they can counter and check a ridiculous amount of mons in the metagame and have actually good chances of sweeping with Calm Mind against unprepared teams and can win against stall teams without haze Altaria. They are the best defensive mons in the metagame while putting some pressure with Scald and with regular Bro's potential z-moves. The only drawback is that Slowbro doesn't have access to hazard / removal but they are just too splashable on bulky offense and bulkier builds to be dropped to respectively A- and B+.

 

[Sickist]

um Hilomilo did you forget Weezing or just didn't accept the nom?

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Discussion Points

Mega Slowbro A -> A- / regular Slowbro A- -> B+
Agree, while they are still extremely defined presences, the meta has been shoving back against them immensely, many mons being deployed to break them, as well as metagame staples like Latias and Altaria taking good advantage of them. Most of what they check like Infernape and Terrakion have been experimenting to simply worm around them as well.

Sylveon B -> B+ or Florges B+ -> B
Agree, on Florges to B. Its clear these mons are the same rank now, but I feel like Florges is underperforming as opposed to Sylveon performing better. Florges faces extremely vicious competition as a fairy from Primarina and Mega Altaria, who both have options to fill similar roles while doing even more on top of that. Florges and Sylveon both still have their clear niches, but they're specific enough that I wouldn't build around them as frequently as more dominant, versatile fairies.

Lucario B+ -> B
Agree. I find it hard to fit this somewhere. Its niche over something like Infernape or Cobalion as a setup user is super specific, and often hard to justify over other options. It's low speed pressures it to run priority more often than faster Nasty Plot/SD users, which can cramp it for moveslots to a degree, and lets not forget the big elephant in the room that it's one of the frailest pokemon in the tier, let alone as a setup fighting mon. I find more setup opportunities for mons with worse defensive typings because this thing just takes so much damage from everything.

Mega Blastoise B -> B+
Agree. I said it last VR round and I'll say it again. This thing is amazing. Rapid spin on top of being able to threaten most of the tier's popular hazard setters and pretty much every ghost is a boon, while also being able to check things like Scizor as icing on the cake. It can be just as offensive as Starmie but with less Pursuit weakness and a lot more bulk in trade for the speed. Arguably the best spinner in the tier if you ask me.

Rotom-C B -> B-
Disagree. While its not super fond of presences like Amoonguss, Altaria, and Gligar, its major competition in Rotom-H really only threatened one of those itself anyway. And with many bulky ground rockers like Rhyperior, Swampert, etc. re-emerging, it has a very clear niche in the tier as a defogger that matches up well against them. It presents a potentially interesting anti-meta option, since it pretty much beats most of the potential ground rockers that Rotom-H hates (Save Gligar.) Its niche as an electric that can threaten many ground options and defog against them is defined enough now that I think it can still be worth a slot on teams.

Heracross B- -> B
Agree. Slowbro (Especially mega) was one of it's biggest heartaches, and with the meta overall turning away from it as a fighting check, Heracross actually matches up well against most of what remains, such as Doublade, Palossand, and Gligar. Instead of suffering from Terrakion as a major competitor, it now has a clear niche of fighting most of what Terrakion struggles against. Defensive Utility doesn't feel like as much of an issue either. It can switch in pretty handily on a number of bulky mons, not really minding most non-super effective attacks uninvested. In particular, it comes in pretty handily on a number of bulky water and/or grounds, not really minding uninvested scalds or earthquakes. Sure, it's not going to switch in and shrug Hydra Dracos and Terrakion Close Combats, but honestly? Most of our fightings that are successful breakers aren't exactly known for top-notch defensive utility.

Roserade B- -> B
Agree. This thing feels much stronger than ever now, having a massive offensive presence that can punish some of its best switchins and handle passive mons in general with sleep powder.

Feraligatr C+ -> B-
Agree. I honestly don't see what the VR means by lacking usage, I've actually seen a respectable amount of gatr lately. And it's a pretty potent breaker at that. Liquidation + Crunch + Ice Punch covers a large chunk of the tier, and it can threaten most archetypes with minimal boosts. Less raw breaking power than Daunt for that much more speed and easier setup while still being super strong? Sign me up, please.

Nidoqueen C -> C+
Agree. I don't see why this dropped in the first place. Its a great hybrid Terrak/Electric check for people who can't stand how passive Palossand is. Having a good, versatile offensive presence while also being able to set either stealth rock or toxic spikes makes it a really solid pick and honestly I have an easier time building with it than some other Terrak checks.

 

[pokemonisfun]

I’d highly suggest you guys do more work estimating the effects of 3 Slowbro (Mega) set’s before coming to any conclusions on viability:

Iron Defense / Calm Mind / Rest
Curse / Amnesia / Rest
Icicum Z + Ice Beam / Calm Mind

I can tell you now based on experience they are pretty clearly viable sets but I haven’t done any serious work on exactly how good they are. It’s the details and hard work that let us see viability, so I hope we get that done before getting to the (imho) easy part of writing up our conclusions and thoughts.

 

[Adaam]

^Yes please don’t drop Mega Slowbro. I don’t know where the idea of its effectiveness dropping came from since there is a ton of high-level replays of it winning games on its own. See: Rob vs Pearl SPL, Harris vs Lycans SPL, Rob vs Finch UUPL, Fuma vs Poek UUPL (didn’t win here but should have if it CMed to +6) It’s a fucking nightmare to scout against if it manages to nab a CM unless you have one of two hard counters in CM Latias or NP Grassium Celebi. Going to a defensive Toxic user risks giving it 6 free boosts if its Block + Rest, but going hard Hydreigon or Altaria risks getting hit by Ice Beam.

 

[Cynde]

i got a couple of shitmon nominations

snorlax to b- primarily because of the belly drum set. i think it works far better than the curse set because it takes advantage of popular switch ins like krookodile, the fat steel megas and amoonguss or even bulkier things that attempt to threaten it with toxic like alomomola or gligar. it functions super well against those bulkier balance builds, an example of it would be teams structured like pearl's necrozma team and it's for sure better than some of the dogshit in c (how is palossand still here again??)

lanturn should be c rank. this mon is fire flames, it's a super awesome pivot that has unique defensive ability in being able to shit on moltres, manectric, rotom heat, bolt beam lati and is generally just a solid specially defensive pivot. the people i test with could probably attest to its effectiveness :eyes:

i do also think tyrantrum should be ranked in c- but i cant think of a strong enough argument other than head smash is really really stupid when u get to click it

 

[Celebiii]

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes
- Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin​

Hey all, I'd like to make an argument for the viability of Forretress in the tier. This is my first time doing so, so lemme know if my post needs to be improved in any way. With that being said there are two main reasons I think Forretress is valuable as a multipurpose hazard-mon in UU. I've provided the set I use and have seen success with above.

1. Firstly, it is the only Pokemon (in any tier) that gets access to the combination of Rapid Spin, both types of Spikes, and Volt Switch. This allows Forretress to set up multiple kinds of hazards depending on what is needed against the other team, and if it feels threatened or wants to punish hazard removal it can Volt Switch out into a powerful attacker to put the pressure on the opponent to lose their hazard controller or take a chance on switching into a strong attack. In that sense Forretress does everything you could ask of a hazard removal mon, and doesn't force you to get rid of your own hazards in the process, something I was struggling with a lot with so many defoggers in the tier but relatively few spinners (and even less good ones).
2. Secondly, Forretress has an amazing defensive typing that gives it only one weakness, and has a colossal defense stat to back it up. Max HP Max Def Relaxed Forretress can switch in on many threatening physical attackers in the tier such as Scizor, Mega Beedrill, Mega Aerodactyl, Cobalion, Haxorus, Linoone, physical Crobat, and Doublade, as well as Krookodile, Mamoswine, Mega Sharpedo, Stakataka, and Bisharp to a lesser extent, and get up one or two layers of Spikes before Volt Switching out into something that threatens whatever it was facing down. It can also do this very freely against bulky walls that aim to get up hazards themselves such as Blissey, Mega Aggron (barring Fire Punch, which is still only 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery w/o rocks), Swampert, and Chesnaught, as well as other walls such as Bronzong, Klefki, Sylveon, and Florges.
3. A third more minor point is that Forretress has two usable abilities for this tier. Overcoat protects against Spore from Amoongus, allowing for a potential surprise layer of Spikes to go up. Sturdy allows it to function as a lead if it needs to to get at least one layer of hazards up, or to ensure it can spin away hazards at least once if needed.

Forretress definitely does have its flaws. It doesn't sponge special attacks nearly as well, meaning it can't switch into some walls with unresisted STAB special attacks, aprticularly waters, like Empoleon, Primarina, the Slow twins, Togekiss, Tentacruel, Suicune, Mega Blastoise, and Rhyperior. It also very obviously hates Fire type attacks and doesn't want anything to do with the many Fire attackers and coverage moves in the tier. For that reason it pairs very well with special walls that can handle Fire attacks and beat bulky waters, particularly RestTalk Primarina, but probably also Suicune, Swampert, and the Slow twins as well.

All that being said however I think Forretress has a good niche as a physical pivot that can switch in on many physical attackers, remove or set hazards, and continue momentum for its team. I think it at the very least deserves to be ranked, possibly at C- or C to begin with.

 

[Fusion Flare]

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes
- Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin​

Hey all, I'd like to make an argument for the viability of Forretress in the tier. This is my first time doing so, so lemme know if my post needs to be improved in any way. With that being said there are two main reasons I think Forretress is valuable as a multipurpose hazard-mon in UU. I've provided the set I use and have seen success with above.

1. Firstly, it is the only Pokemon (in any tier) that gets access to the combination of Rapid Spin, both types of Spikes, and Volt Switch. This allows Forretress to set up multiple kinds of hazards depending on what is needed against the other team, and if it feels threatened or wants to punish hazard removal it can Volt Switch out into a powerful attacker to put the pressure on the opponent to lose their hazard controller or take a chance on switching into a strong attack. In that sense Forretress does everything you could ask of a hazard removal mon, and doesn't force you to get rid of your own hazards in the process, something I was struggling with a lot with so many defoggers in the tier but relatively few spinners (and even less good ones).
2. Secondly, Forretress has an amazing defensive typing that gives it only one weakness, and has a colossal defense stat to back it up. Max HP Max Def Relaxed Forretress can switch in on many threatening physical attackers in the tier such as Scizor, Mega Beedrill, Mega Aerodactyl, Cobalion, Haxorus, Linoone, physical Crobat, and Doublade, as well as Krookodile, Mamoswine, Mega Sharpedo, Stakataka, and Bisharp to a lesser extent, and get up one or two layers of Spikes before Volt Switching out into something that threatens whatever it was facing down. It can also do this very freely against bulky walls that aim to get up hazards themselves such as Blissey, Mega Aggron (barring Fire Punch, which is still only 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery w/o rocks), Swampert, and Chesnaught, as well as other walls such as Bronzong, Klefki, Sylveon, and Florges.
3. A third more minor point is that Forretress has two usable abilities for this tier. Overcoat protects against Spore from Amoongus, allowing for a potential surprise layer of Spikes to go up. Sturdy allows it to function as a lead if it needs to to get at least one layer of hazards up, or to ensure it can spin away hazards at least once if needed.

Forretress definitely does have its flaws. It doesn't sponge special attacks nearly as well, meaning it can't switch into some walls with unresisted STAB special attacks, aprticularly waters, like Empoleon, Primarina, the Slow twins, Togekiss, Tentacruel, Suicune, Mega Blastoise, and Rhyperior. It also very obviously hates Fire type attacks and doesn't want anything to do with the many Fire attackers and coverage moves in the tier. For that reason it pairs very well with special walls that can handle Fire attacks and beat bulky waters, particularly RestTalk Primarina, but probably also Suicune, Swampert, and the Slow twins as well.

All that being said however I think Forretress has a good niche as a physical pivot that can switch in on many physical attackers, remove or set hazards, and continue momentum for its team. I think it at the very least deserves to be ranked, possibly at C- or C to begin with.

I like this idea and all, but I personally think your case would benefit if you have replays utilizing that pokemon. Surely you have some?


Oh also, I think Toxic Spikes should be replaced by Gyro Ball to better check Mega Altaria, Mamoswine, Mega Bee, MAero, Mega Sharpedo, etc0.

 

[frankjosh]

hi heres some of my meh opinions

Mega Slowbro A -> A- / regular Slowbro A- -> B+
DISAGREE this mon is such a threat in this tier. its got so many sets it can utilize well, and being a terrakion counter is enough reason to warrant slapping it on a shit ton of teams. from block to calm mind to double dance, both variations of slowbro can be super flexible depending on what your team needs and i think thats more than enough deserving of being in A + A-.

Sylveon B -> B+ or Florges B+ -> B

As someone who ends up having one of these two on almost every team, I'd honestly say they just do different things and I am personally on board with them being the same rank for Both B. sylveon being more of a mixed wall as well as being a more definitive lati answer with calm mind/frustration means it can handle that side of the spectrum for teams more, while florges has synthesis and is thus A LOT less pressured from healing itself through means of wishtect. I genuinely think they both have different times to be put on teams and have pros that balance out their cons to be the same rank.

Feraligatr C+ -> B-

dont really have experience with using gatr personally but it seems like every time i play against one i take a look at my team and realize it 6-0s it and i have to play out of my mind to not just lose to it. yeah its a big ass threat tbh move it up

Nidoqueen C -> C+
agree i think nidoqueen is great. while its offensive presence is obviously lower than kings, its got enough natural bulk to tank hits from some of the most popular threats like scizor/alt and crack back, sometimes ohkoing in return depending on its spread/if its life orb. bulky grounds in this tier are always welcome, especially when they can force so many switches with the insane coverage that a mon like queen has. i could see this being b- tbh but thats just me

 

[Celebiii]

I like this idea and all, but I personally think your case would benefit if you have replays utilizing that pokemon. Surely you have some?


Oh also, I think Toxic Spikes should be replaced by Gyro Ball to better check Mega Altaria, Mamoswine, Mega Bee, MAero, Mega Sharpedo, etc0.

Sure, I just hadn't posted any due to being a lower ladder player, IDK how much my replays are worth:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-915756741
Here is one in which my Forretress is able to switch in on M-Aero and Chesnaught and stack spikes with no worries of taking significant damage

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-916130795
Here is one where I actually lose to an opposing Forretress (unfortunate Overheat miss + crit on Prim hurt), but this one was taking advantage of Sturdy + Custap + Explosion to work as a lead, something I hadn't even mentioned.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-916144401
And here is a recent one where Chesnaught and Palossand both let in Forretress to spike for free.

As for the Gyro Ball thing I tried it for a bit but the damage it does isn't even worth running IMO, it doesn't OHKO Mega Beedrill, and only does 29.7 - 35.5% to Mega Alt - and that's on the most offensive build, the DD one. Against the support set (which Forretress doesn't even want to stay in vs. since it is suggested to carry Flamethrower) it does a pitiful 14.1 - 16.9%. I personally value the Toxic Spikes potential against stall teams and the toxic damage against bulky switches more.

 

[Amane Misa]

I promised Hilomilo that I will post and so I did.

Feraligatr: C+ -> B

B- is not enough to visualize how good this monster is. Just did a short laddering run for some replays to show how great can Feraligatr clean lategame, or even break early- to mid-game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-916135165
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-916130193
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-914346373

I will quote myself from my post from the current NP thread because I think that I explained Feraligatr's greatness better than I could right now:

The C+-ranked Feraligatr is, ironically, a face on dual screens teams, and is honestly so good right now. It has the tools to bypass the aforementioned Scizor/Doublade + Krookodile + Rotom-H/Tentacruel core thanks to the combination of a great setup move in Dragon Dance, great sheer power, an excellent STAB move, and near-perfect coverage. However, between Haze Tentacruel into revenge-killing with Scarf Krookodile/Latias, more offensive teams haven't had that many issues taking care of it. With the help of dual screens, Feraligatr is able to literally set up on the aforementioned checkers and has proven to be a very threatening Pokemon.

Linoone: C- -> C

Coming to this, I thought that Linoone was unranked. Apparently, it's C- lol. With the rise of screens as a playstyle, a Linoone rise is needed. It is the classic sweeper we all know that has Belly Drum + STAB Extreme Speed, but screens is now a more viable playstyle than the in time Linoone was ranked C-, so it makes sense to raise Linoone a rank.

Xatu: Unranked -> C-/C

I would be happy with just C- because there is competition to Xatu from Azelf, other screens setter, but I personally prefer Xatu for the following reasons:

• While it isn't naturally bulkier than Azelf, Azelf will have to run max Speed and max HP on its set. Xatu can afford to invest in Defense and Special Defense, which makes Xatu bulkier than Azelf and lets it set up screens on Choice Scarf Hydreigon and Scizor more easily.
• Xatu has access to Magic Bounce, which suppresses opposing hazard setters from setting up hazards, and makes it so opposing Defog doesn't remove your screens. Furthermore, it means Xatu can afford to run Thunder Wave, which Azelf can not.
• Xatu's U-turns are slower.

 

[OneSmogonCopyer]

Lemme try to get some of my thoughts in here as well
Feraligatr C+ > B-: AGREE
the times I've had to dance around this mon not taking 4-5 of my Mons out is a hard thing to do. DD Liquidation Ice punch and aqua jet basically makes all of it checks quiver. He is the reason why I started taking counter on my pert JUST to fight against this bastard. Although counter is also nice for scizors thinking they can just u-turn and then have one of their Mons die. Back to Gatr. Especially with the rise of screens. Almost any Mon faster than azelf (screens setter) doesn't usually carry defog and the slower ones get taunted meaning that next time feraligatr comes in, it is guaranteed to get at least 1-2 setups of DD and proceeds to clean teams.

 

[Dumb Sir]

Hey I just want to give my short, concise opinions on the talking points roused by the new rankings. So without further ado, let's get on with it:

A -> A- /

A- -> B+: Unsure- One one hand, Slowbro is an amazing late game win condition thanks to it's ability to Slack Off or (Arceus forbid) rest off any damage while it's boosting. It also can't be crit as M-Slowbro, further increasing it's walling potential. But, on the other hand, with the rise of faster threats that can stop Slowbro's Regenerator shenanigans by hitting it hard or super effectively in the early game, such as Hydreigon and Electric Z Latias, I'm torn. I feel as though with more experimentation, Slowbro's true colors will be shown, but i'll lean more to Disagree for the time being.

B+ -> B: Disagree- In my eyes, Florges is a more rounded Cleric than Sylveon could ever be. Sure, Sylveon has the added benefit of more HP Wishes (95 compared to 78), Stronger STAB is Pixilate + Hyper Voice, and a higher SpA stat, but Florges has additional supporting options that can allow it to play a different, often times, more useful note than Sylveon. These options include Defog and Synthesis, as well as a slightly higher speed stat.

B+ -> B: Agree- Lucario is largely outclassed and outpaced by offensive Steels like Coballion, who has the added benefit of a higher speed stat and support moves like Stealth Rock and Volt Switch, as well as Scizor, who is Scizor. Lucario's SpA Assault is also walled very easily, as it barely has coverage outside of Fighting and Steel.

B -> B+: Agree- Blastoise is a pretty solid mon overall, and I've been seeing a lot of success with it recently. It's offenses are just good enough for it to be a threatening spinner in the tier, the likes Tenta could never match up to. However, I couldn't see M-Stoise going any higher than this, as it can be walled pretty easily if scouted for, not to mention that it's pretty much outclassed offensively and walled by Primarina, and outclassed defensively and walled by Tenta.

B -> B-: Agree- Rotom-C is a pretty unique Defogger, as it has some very nice offensive and supportive options. However, it just doesn't do enough is a meta that can run over it easily with large offensive Dragons and Steels. Special Mention goes to refresh M-Altaria, who doesn't even care about Will-O-Wisp.

B- -> B: Disagree- From using Heracross on a couple of recent occasions, I can say that many of its potential benefits are brought down by it's negatives. It's tendency to be revenge killed or walled is just too high for Heracross to go any higher than B-. Maybe if it had some priority like a certain metal bug it could be more successful.

B- -> B: Agree- Out with the key, and in with the flower! Roserade is a fantastic Spikes and TSpikes setter for this meta game. Mons like M-Aerodactyl, Scizor, and M-Altaria largely enjoy the hazards Roserade puts up. In addition to its hazard laying, Roserade also offers offensive pressure in Leaf Storm and Sludge Bomb. Sleep Powder is another volatile option that can swing the game in the user's favor. Overall, this mon is extremely underrated and definitely deserves the B Ranking.

C+ -> B-: Agree- Gatr is one of two Sheer Force in this discussion, but unlike Nidoqueen, Gatr really puts the force in Sheer Force. Dragon Dance makes its Liquidations absolutely nuclear, while Agility is an option that can help it circumvent its faster counters, such as M-Beedrill and M-Aerodactyl. I'm honestly surprised this mon is only now getting the recognition it truly deserves.

C -> C+: Agree- In the recent past, Nidoqueen was seeing a lot of tournament success as an offensive rocker. When compared to Nidoking, the lower overall power level kind of hurts, but the increased bulk really helps out as a rocker. Unlike other Offensive rockers like Nihilego or Mamoswine, Nidoqueen deals more consistent damage and actually walls out Fighting and Bug coverage from the likes of Scizor and Coballion. It's typing is very notable, as it both resists U-Turn and is immune to Volt-Switch.

 

[pdt]

View attachment 177620 C -> C+: Agree- In the recent past, Nidoqueen was seeing a lot of tournament success as an offensive rocker. When compared to Nidoking, the lower overall power level kind of hurts, but the increased bulk really helps out as a rocker. Unlike other Offensive rockers like Nihilego or Mamoswine, Nidoqueen deals more consistent damage and actually walls out Fighting and Bug coverage from the likes of Scizor and Coballion. It's typing is very notable, as it both resists U-Turn and is immune to Volt-Switch.

slight nitpick, nidoqueen is actually stronger than nidoking as it can afford to run modest as well as maintaining increased bulk in exchange for less speed. honestly this thing is extremely good rn, pressures pretty much all removers in the tier as well as doubling as volt switch immunity and balance breaker. it is much better than most of the B and B- pokemon so i definitely support a rise if not a bigger one

 

[Charmflash]

Unranked -> C-

set in question

Claydol @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Protect
- Refresh
- Rapid Spin

Claydol is a very unique spin user who can spin reliably against a specific set of stealth rock user. Those are as following:

Mega-Steelix
Mega-Aggron
Cobalion
Stakataka
Terrakion (whom it also counters, a feat accomplished by very few)
Rhyperior
Nihilego
Hippowdon
Non-Knock Off Gligar
Klefki (even Magnet Rise gets its Play Roughs stalled out with ease)

Moreover, the three Ghost-types (Doublade, Gengar, Chandelure) in the tier get hit for super effective damage by Claydols STAB attack, earth power, making spinblocking extremely difficult. Claydol is also quite well equipped to take on pursuit from Scarf Krookodile and Choice Banded Scizor due to its good physical bulk, access to Protect and Earth Power. Claydol also has some more defensive utility such as checking things like physical Infernape, Mega-Manectric and Toxicroak. Lastly, Claydol is able to get an emergency spin off even in bad matchups as its natural bulk on both the physical and the special side is quite something.

Personally I enjoy this mon alongside Mega-Altaria which is an absolute menace in the tier and really appreciates Claydols ability to remove hazards as well as deal with some Steel-, Rock- and Ground-types while resisting Dark, Bug, Grass and Water for Claydol.

some replays since the UUPL finals tiebreaker vs three Dark-Types only showcased the emergency spin

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-923793550 v. Hippowdon + Suit CB Zor
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-923779441 v. Mega-Steelix + Terrak
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-923808234 v. Mega-Steelix + Croak
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-923811058 v. Mega-Steelix + Croak again, different opponent
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-923866796 v. Mega-Aggron + Terrak
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-923889388 v. Rhyperior

 

[pokemonisfun]

Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Spite
- Block
- Rest / Toxic / Counter

Pyuk was pretty much dominated by physically defensive sets - they were at about 95% usage in 1630 stats in March. However, specially defensive sets have been picking up steam and are now at 40%, up 800% from 5% in March.

The primary proximate reason for this is Pyuk’s ability to fit on or favorably change the standard Alo/Quag/Bliss stalls matchups. Specifically, Pyukumuku counters at least the following stall/wall breakers (in no particular order):

1) NP Heal Bell Togekiss
2) NP Azelf
3) Sub CM Chandelure
4) NP Infernape
5) NP Lucario
6) CM Reuniclus
7) Superpower Nidoking
8) CM Psyshock Latias
9) Block Slowbro (only with Rest unless Slowbro runs CM)
10) NP Giga Drain Celebi
11) Sub Gengar
12) Work Up Refresh Pidgeot
13) NP Houndoom w/o Taunt

Plus, with Block, you get a decent match up against opposing stalls.

All this is helpful for defensive teams and can be worth the slot it costs. You still can counter some weaker physical attackers that Quagsire beats usually, most notable defensive SD Scizor and Doublade which trouble stall because Toxic immunity. You could also run both Pyukumuku and Quagsire although it then becomes hard to use Alomomola because of stacking weakness to Grass. I find Doublade to be a good partner if not using Quagsire because it counters Cobalion, Terrakion, and some Scizor while Pyukumuku can counter Togekiss which Doublade hates even though it’s a Steel.

The fact that Pyukumuku can run a relatively new set to greatly shift stall’s matchups means it should rise, probably multiple ranks.

I would also consider rising Quagsire because it seems pretty low for a stall staple.

Lastly, discussing these primarily stall Pokémon makes me think, like others before me, this thread could be improved if it told more of the why behind viability. A relatively easy thing we could do is color code the Pokémon names. Red would be for offensive ranks, blue for defensive, purple for both. Pyukumuku would uncontroversially be blue for example. There might only be a handful of Pokemon that are actually be controversial although we can’t know until we try.

Anyways, my uncontroversial point is it’s hard to compare Blissey and Sharpedo in terms of rank even though they are the same rank because they have such different roles. I would say this is a problem so we should try to fix it.

 

[RapidashInFlames]

Mega and Regular Slowbro dropping: Disagree. Both Mega and Regular Slowbro are extremely versatile in the sort of role they can play on teams with pivoting and bulk/regenerator [in regular Slowbro's case], especially in a metagame like this where mons like Infernape and Terrakion are two of the most prominent offensive threats. Both of which are checked/countered by the Bros. The metagame has adjusted to it, i agree there but that doesnt mean that both have lost any of the effectiveness that they have in the format at all. Shell Armor is also an amazing ability once Slowbro megas that allows it to wall whatever it likes/slack off or rest off damage without the fear of being crit [something a lot of calm mind defensive mons/walls have to deal with as a problem].

Sylveon and Florges: Ive been on the boat of if you were to rank them both, it would either be the same rank or Sylveon being the one ranked higher due to its physical bulk and being able to check those sorts of threats easier than Florges can. Though both, while filling the same sort of niche in the metagame as clerics, do so in slightly different fashion. Sylveon being less passive than Florges due to pixelate boosted Hyper Voice and a better SpA, while Florges makes up for its "passiveity" by being more of a natural "support" cleric and playing that role to perfection. Why would I have Sylveon Higher then? Its the offensive capability it has with Hyper voice that allows it to not be as much of a momentum sapper as Florges can be in the long run, something that comes into play on more offensive oriented teams that want a cleric to put into the 6th slot [speaking balanced/bulky offense].

 

[ehT]

Crobat to C/C-. This mon has virtually no niche in the tier that isn't done better by another Flying-type/Poison-type/fast mon. It's weak as shit and can't reliably switch into anything that it should beat with its typing. Awful mon, please let it drop.

 

[Twilight]

Crobat

Crobat @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Super Fang
- Roost
- Taunt

Just wanted to quickly talk about Crobat, because I very much disagree that it has absolutely no niche in the tier. I agree that Crobat is definitely not at it's prime, especially with a lot of the Pokemon it used to check like Serperior and Breloom are no longer here. However, it can still provide some utility on both HO and BO teams. As it stands Super Fang is pretty much the only set, I would deem viable or at least worth using in the current metagame. With the combination of Super Fang + Taunt it is able to break down a lot of its checks like Mega Aggron and Empoleon which can be valuable for a vast majority of teams that appreciate these bulky walls getting weakened to the point they can break past it. It is still able to provide a decent offensive presence with its good Speed stat of base 130 allowing it to usually fire off a faster SSSS or Brave Bird in most scenarios allowing it to check threats like Lucario, Celebi and Malt etc. It does face a LOT of competition as the role of a stallbreaker for these types of teams, especially with how valued a grounded poison can be or its weaker presence as an offensive flying type. It also not being a very splashable Pokemon to fit onto a team, but I think all of these things have been reflected by its current position on the VR thread. Personally, I think it is has the niche in the metagame to distinguish itself from the Pokemon in both C or C- to not warrant it dropping.

Also bump up Nidoqueen like everyone else is saying, that Mon shouldn't be in C. Nidoqueen has shown its worth as an amazing Terrakion and Coba check capable of setting either Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes. It being able to use both a defensive or an offensive set, which albeit slower is capable of hitting harder than Nidoking due to the Modest nature.

Other things I agree with:

Both Slowbro variants remaining where they are respecively
Megatoise rising to B+
Sylveon and Florges being the same rank as I addressed in a seperate post

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Alright, here's some noms I've been holding in my back pocket, lets go.

Mantine to B-
With Scizors opting for less and less speed to check things, some even opting for the bare minimum to only outspeed Alo, this honestly isn't a bad check now. But wait there's more! with it's massive spdef, it can convincingly check some things like Gengar and Nidoking which otherwise blow your usual balances into the next century. It can also act as a decent check for rising star Feraligatr with haze in it's bag of tricks and it's ability to stomach even some +1 attacks. It's also not a half bad defogger with the meta favoring ground rockers like Swampert, Gligar, Palossand etc. that can keep rocks up vs Rotom-H. Mantine isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread or the next big meta breaker, but its definitely a lot better than when it first dropped to C+.

Bronzong to B
Want something that checks Mega Altaria, Latias, and Celebi in the same slot, but also has rocks and levitate? Well don't worry, Bronzong is here to treat your ailments. I've been loving this mon lately and using it on a lot of teams, and for good reason. Altaria is everywhere and sometimes you can't just put Scizor on literally every team you have to deal with it. Its also one of the better Latias checks and a really solid Celebi check on top of that. It also checks some other cheeky things, like Nidoking, Aerodactyl-Mega, and non-knock Mamoswine. (Or even knock ones if you carry colbur) in the same slot which is nice. It does have a pursuit weakness which isn't great and Its one of the few rockers that Rotom-H can actually match up well against but honestly if you can work around these things then checking what it checks in it's single slot is definitely a boon.

Re-rank Venomoth to C-
The amount of problems Venomoth has definitely narrows if it's used on the luxurious screens teams that have been skyrocketing in popularity, as its weaknesses to common priority and scarfers is worked around by the damage reduction screens grants it, and setup opportunities become far more common. I've personally liking the disable set to help it eat through bulkier teams better while still being alright in some offensive matchups, but even just 2 attacks with roost can be a lot more effective with the screens giving it easy setup and making it much harder to revenge kill. Sharing a rank with Linoone (Or just being a rank under if Linoone does rise) should reflect that it has a small niche on screen-based teams just as Linoone does.

Gengar to A-
I forget if I've made this nom before but this is the nom here I'm most passionate about. Gengar is here to remind all you naughty little children that if you aren't carrying a really solid resist to it or just a generally massive special wall on your balances or bulky offenses you're going to turn into a ghost yourself. I've been liking alternative versions of the sub set like ghostium or Life Orb to punish teams that use stuff like Gligar as their primary Gengar switch. And of course Fightinium is never bad itself, what with all the Krook running around. It heavily punishes teams for switching on it, especially if their best checks are offensive checks. It's speed also gives it some merit as a killer of the 108s like Terrakion, Cobalion, and Infernape which can all be annoying at times. I've also seen a kick in Celebi lately which Gengar also loves to spook off the field. I love using this mon and absolutely hate playing against it, to a point that I would mark at A-.

 

[sasol]

Gonna try keep my words hidden in tags so as to not bombard the thread with text walls.

Lastly, discussing these primarily stall Pokémon makes me think, like others before me, this thread could be improved if it told more of the why behind viability. A relatively easy thing we could do is color code the Pokémon names. Red would be for offensive ranks, blue for defensive, purple for both. Pyukumuku would uncontroversially be blue for example. There might only be a handful of Pokemon that are actually be controversial although we can’t know until we try.

Anyways, my uncontroversial point is it’s hard to compare Blissey and Sharpedo in terms of rank even though they are the same rank because they have such different roles. I would say this is a problem so we should try to fix it.

full

I think viability can be translated roughly to "how well does something perform with the rest of the tier"

For example, Feraligatr might be X rank based on the fact that it sets up on an S rank, sweeps most of the A ranks, and is supported well by the B ranks. Likewise, Blissey is a good A choice because of how well it supports the entire tier and how well it walls special attackers of all ranks. There's proof of this in the way people form points here, which will be something like "xatu is on the rise therefore chesnaught should not rise", etc.

At the end of the day if something is a good sweeper objectively, but one common pokemon stops it, it nullifies how objectively good the sweeper is and makes its ranking entirely about relativity to other pokemon.
And so I think this is independent of offense and defense, and we don't really need to worry his thread with more nuances like colorizing the roles these pokemon play because it kind of just creates more space for argument where no other thread has needed before in any meta or generation.

TL;DR: I don't think we need to color code pokemons

​

full

Idk, I would use talonflame, magneton, and related C rank pokemon before i would use crobat. What you describe feels very C- to me. Porygon 2, cress, and ferroseed are all C- which ive struggled with far more than bat. Doesn't seem very good at stallbreaking considering stalls like to pack slowbro/doublade/nihilego

TL;DR: Crobat seems pretty bad idk

Other thoughts:

full

Quagsire is good, in fact a lot of C+ rank seems like they could maybe be B-

Gengar seems like it has untapped potential in some sort of mean look perish song set to annoy defensive walls. Standard Z move is low effort and the other sets are underrated, so I agree with rise.

Slowbro is obviously amazing, can't really drop it without rejecting how good its CM / Block / Z move / Defensive sets are and how much variety it packs on these sets alone.

Heracross is still an uncontested wallbreaker, you really have to push hard to not lose to this with defensive teams. Anything not hitting super effectively, like sciz and cobalion will have a hard time being in on this if it has flame orb in effect. Still i dont think it should rise it just shouldn't drop.

Blastoise is bad and i will die on this hill. No one is really unprepared for the offensive special attacking water type in UU because we have 50 of them. I would never dedicate a mega slot to rapid spinning especially when it doesn't have recovery and can't really do much else with consistency. Honestly always surprised when this hyped up in UU chats cus it's never been all that good. Tentacruel and Starmie are way better because they aren't limited to a single, 1 dimensional set.

Roserade is good but i personally would only use the spikes set, sleep powder is only good in fringe late or super early game offense v offense scenarios. You could maybe use both.

Pyuku is good specifically because of things like spite and block. I honestly haven't gotten much use out of unaware as an ability as much as I have with these other moves it has. SO rise.

TL;DR: Most other suggestions like Quag, Pyuku, Roserade, etc, are good! Stoise is bad.

These are my thoughts on the current 2019/07/16 UU Metagame™

 

[SacredLatias]

I will actually fight you over toise, that thing is really solid in the metagame due to its ability to consistently spin and break holes in enemy balance and offenses lacking zeraora (which doesnt wanna switch in)

 

[RyanKoopa]

Don't have much to add, but Super Fang Crobat is dope. I really don't think it should drop, or if it must, only to C, not C-.