USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V3

Weezing Ranked: Disagree.
C'mon. We got Steelvally, Jellicent, Articuno, Pyukumuku, Quagsire and all those things. WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER MON WHOSE TIER IS LOWER THAN RU! ok, here's the real reasons. Weezing's passivity and inability to deal with Special Attackers due to it's horrible Special Bulk is unappealing. Latias Is the second best Pokemon in the tier, and that just makes of Weezing Breakfast. Seriously though, why would you use that over Shroomy, Tentacruel, Jellicent (all as a wall) and Toxicroak? Don't rank weezing.
Yeah, this is just straight up wrong.

First off, NO SHIT that Weezing loses to Latias. Poison is weak to Psychic. How'd ya figure THAT out, Sherlock?
And second, you said that its "inability to deal with Special Attackers due to its horrible Special Bulk is unappealing". Weezing is a primary PHYSICAL WALL. By that logic, we'd be saying that Blissey is unappealing because it can't handle physical atacker.

Also, the mons you mentioned that wall shit don't handle Mega Altaria to extents. Amongus dies to Fire Blast, Tentacruel dies to EQ, and Jellicent loses to Refresh. No idea why you added toxicroak, which can't even check Alt unless you got some gimmicky Choice Scarf shit.

Also, its not uncommon for a mon that gears toward stall and defensive-oriented teams to be passive. See Blissey, Alomomola, and all that.
Your arguments are extremely lacking.
 
That being said..

kisspng-pokmon-battle-revolution-pikachu-rhyperior-rhydo-5b26a07868b7f5.7262717415292581044289.jpg
RHYP FOR B

This mon should jump because its literally worthy of it. It had a decent amount of usage in SPL, as well as being very solid on the ladder in general. It also appreciates Kommo-o being lifted to OU (dirty thieves), as it is one less thing to prevent rocks from going up. Rhyperior has amazing bulk, a stellar ability and typing, especially in a metagame with Moltres and Rotom Heat, as well as Mega Aerodactyl. It also acts as a great MMane answer, and isnt a sitting duck due to it's massive 140 base attack. Spikestack and fighting spam is on the decline as well. Overall, you can see what Rhyp does in the tier, and with recent changes, it's only getting better.

SPL replay of HT vs Pearl: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-425018
Rhyperior had a very solid Matchup vs Pearl's stall team and probably would've put in work if it had not been for the freeze gods preventing it to be so.

SPL replay of Pearl vs Bugzinator: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-425851
Again, Rhyp has a pretty nice MU against Bug's team, and it does it's job well, checking Togekiss throughout the match and getting rocks up for the whole game.

SPL replay of Pearl vs Pak (dang pearl is everywhere in this post): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-426697
Rhyp didn't do as much here, but it still helped check Aero a little, however it was weakened to the point of Aero clicking EQ to finish it off.

In conclusion, Rhyperior is a very solid mon atm, checking scary threats like Moltres, Aerodactyl, Rotom fan Heat, and other metagame staples. It also can keep rocks up most of the time throughout the match, as well as punch holes and weaken the opposing team for later. All of these factors and more solidify Rhyperior as a B ranked mon in my eyes.

edit: oops just realized this nom is already everywhere, but B- isnt enough so my nom to B still stands.
 

Twilight

It's a leap of faith
is a Pre-Contributor
Just want to provide my thoughts on the discussion points:

: I've tested this Mon pretty extensively and it deserves to be sitting in C- where it originally was. While Hoopa faces competition from Gengar as a offensive ghost type there is one key thing it has over it, that being Nasty Plot. Gengar can only dream to break through stall teams, something Substitute Hoopa can do with ease. I think Sub FIght-Z is just as threatening on this as Gengar, it can even run a Berry if you wanted to take advantage of its ability.

: I honestly think Zeraora is kinda underrated, but I can't deny that it is really underwhelming when it comes to the dmg output especially if it lacks a LO. While Zeraora does benefit from Kommo-o leaving it can't handle the fact that Pokemon like Mega Altaria and Amoonguss are seeing more usage. Its 4MSS just making it impossible to carry the coverage necessary for them without being detrimental to its other match-ups. So yeah, I agree with a drop to B.

: I personally disagree with a Mamo drop. Mamoswine is still as threatening as ever and while it has lost its role as a Stealth Rock setter on HO teams the AoA is extremely difficult to handle finding itself on a few BO squads. Having the utility to carry Knock Off to aid its team as well as breaking through its checks in Rotom-H etc. I agree Mamo isn't that easiest thing to fit onto a team thanks to it providing pretty little defensively and the surge of fighting types in the tier not helping it. However, it does benefit from the high amounts of usage of Pokemon like Gligar, Amoonguss, Mega Altaria. Ice Shard being amazing for handling faster threats like Latias and Hydreigon too. Thick Fat at least stops Pokemon like Mega Manectric not attempting to sit in against it and pressing Overheat. IcePablo2007 mentioned a suicide lead set which I can't say I have much experience with, but maybe with Kommo-o's leaving it has some viability, just speculation on this part. I think Mamo is fine where it currently is.

: I agree with what everyone else is saying, bump her up. Diancie compresses so much into one role and this is amazing for such a unique Pokemon. Providing a Hydra and Lati check, Stealth Rock, Flying resist and access to Heal Bell.

: The mushroom is great at checking a lot of top tier threats like Malt, Primarina and Scizor. Regenerator is such a broken ability allowing it to keep pivoting around. Spore obviously is amazing utility in making a Mon redundant for a few turns and allowing a teammate to use it as set-up fodder. While not as common it can be explored by using other moves like Foul Play, Stun Spore and Sludge Bomb has recently seen quite a bit of usage on it with no drawback now that Kommo-o is gone. I'm fine with it going to A-

: I think Mega Pidgeot is fine where it is. Nothing has changed since the last time except Rhyperior is becoming a bit more popular. Its niche of having 100% accurate Hurricanes isn't something to ignore as not many things switch into it well. I am not overlooking that it absolutely hates all the Maero and Rotom-H spam which is why it is down in B-, but in conjunction with them having to tank a Hurricane + potential rocks dmg it can break through the latter decently well and force the former to Roost. The Refresh set is pretty decent imo allowing it to be a huge nuisance for stall teams reliant on Blissey to handle it. It doesn't really hinder its other match-ups by dropping the coverage, as Hurricane is the move it intends to spam anyways. Most steel types in the tier lack recovery so regardless they don't appreciate this chip, hyper offense having even fewer switch-ins to a Hurricane.

(Steel and Fairy)
: Not much I want to say about these, but I agree the Silvallys and the Water/Ground + Rhyperior trio should be bumped up. Along with Porygon being ranked.
 

vivalospride

tuh
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
Hi.

I haven't posted here in a long time and I don't have too strong of a feeling on whether Zeraora stays at B+ or drops, I definitely wouldn't want it to be B- that'd be absurd, but all I'm asking you guys with this post is to try out a set because I think it makes Zeraora a lot more useful.

Zeraora @ Assault Vest
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Volt Switch
- Plasma Fists
- Close Combat
- Knock Off

Zeraora is super fuckin underwhelming in pretty much every situation, z move feels like it's wasted whenever I use it on this thing, aoa was always my favorite set. In random battles, AV is the primary set on Zeraora. So after thinking about it I felt the need to try it out given the fact that I don't feel the LO/Ebelt damage is a necessity to the aoa set. The main appeal of this set is the fact that it functions as a decent fast pivot w/ Knock Off that can actually semi-reliably check Moltres which is pretty neat. It can also pressure waters more since it doesn't just get 2HKOd by like every Scald, while ofc it's still scared of the burn. Not some game changing shit that suddenly makes Zeraora a god mon, but I believe wholeheartedly that it's the best set as it doesn't feel like it's not doing it's job when I use it, makes it more of a utility mon than something that should actually be doing damage.

Also, if you guys want a team to try it out with: https://pokepast.es/a81de25713d2a8d9
 

HOOPA IS BAD (Not Hoopa-Unbound, he is good)
: Stay UR
Why are people even using this shit at all? The Sub Nasty Plot set that's been experienced on the ladder is a gimmick that doesn't deserve a niche. Said set is extremely slow, failing to outspeed anything notable bar Scizor, but why would you give a fuck when you could run Scarf Scizor or hit it with Bullet Punch? It doesn't face competition from Gengar, instead, it faces massive amounts of competition from other stallbreakers, such as Reuniclus, who, despite lacking a lot of immediate power and bulk, has better defensive utility, particularly on the physical side, and its mono-Psychic typing doesn't give it a quad weakness to Dark and Ghost, unlike Hoopa. Now yeah, A-muk's lack of presence in the tier and Terrakion being extremely common has given Hoopa new life, but the latter is Hoopa's greatest weakness, with Terrakion essentially outspeeding it and OHKOing it with Stone Edge, before it can even set up Substitute. Reuniclus, on the other hand, can survive a Stone Edge from Terrakion and can threaten to nearly 2HKO it with Psyshock. Besides, the only relevant stall mon it "beats" is Blissey, but it's a stallbreaker that's literally worthless when facing anything else. Other stallbreakers such as Kyurem and Hydreigon provide more utility to a team, hit a wider variety of stall mons, can perform more roles, and have better speed tiers than Hoopa.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 211-249 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 369-435 (122.5 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you see what I mean?
tl;dr: Hoopa is bad, Reuniclus is good. Hoopa is shit when compared to Kyurem and Hydreigon.
Oh, and fuck Magician.
Thus, Hoopa has no distinguishable niche in the meta.

: Drop to B-
Ok, this is an extremely controversial nom that I want to make (looking at you, you little christmASS tree called Mega Sceptile)

Mega Sceptile just hates this meta where fairy-types are the next best thing. Admittedly, it does outspeed all of them and can retaliate back with some of its coverage, which is nice, but as a mega evolution, you're honestly much better off using other mega evolutions, such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Altaria, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Slowbro, Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, Mega Blastoise, Mega Houndoom, and even Mega Pidgeot and Mega Beedrill are better choices despite doing things, such as being able to combat the influx of powerful fairy-types which has happened here, offering more defensive utility, not having to rely on as much team support, and can simply provide more utility to a team. It's just too inconsistent to be viable right now, especially in a meta where powerful fairy-types have became the next best thing again. Not to mention it hates the influx of powerful poison-types which don't even care about anything it throws at it and can just kill it with their STAB moves. Admittedly, it has a better matchup versus Gligar, which is why it shouldn't go to C+, but honestly, this idiot rising was not the right decision in my opinion. #MegaBeedrillFTWMegaSceptileFTL
 
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HOOPA IS BAD (Not Hoopa-Unbound, he is good)
: Stay UR
Why are people even using this shit at all? The Sub Nasty Plot set that's been experienced on the ladder is a gimmick that doesn't deserve a niche. Said set is extremely slow, failing to outspeed anything notable bar Scizor, but why would you give a fuck when you could run Scarf Scizor or hit it with Bullet Punch? It doesn't face competition from Gengar, instead, it faces massive amounts of competition from other stallbreakers, such as Reuniclus, who, despite lacking a lot of immediate power and bulk, has better defensive utility, particularly on the physical side, and its mono-Psychic typing doesn't give it a quad weakness to Dark and Ghost, unlike Hoopa. Now yeah, A-muk's lack of presence in the tier and Terrakion being extremely common has given Hoopa new life, but the latter is Hoopa's greatest weakness, with Terrakion essentially outspeeding it and OHKOing it with Stone Edge, before it can even set up Substitute. Reuniclus, on the other hand, can survive a Stone Edge from Terrakion and can threaten to nearly 2HKO it with Psyshock.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 211-249 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 369-435 (122.5 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you see what I mean?
tl;dr: Hoopa is bad, Reuniclus is good.
Oh, and fuck Magician.

That's all. I might edit this later.
Sub + Nasty Plot breaks stall and Gar cannot, and it doesn't need to slowly accumulate boosts like Reuniclus does. They don't even play the same role so idk why you're comparing the two anyway.
 
: Stay UR
I think Hoopa should be added to C-, sure there are mons like Gengar, Reuniclus, etc but that does not automatically imply, that Hoopa has no niche at all.
Hoopa is imho a decent Sub Nasty Plot User with its well rounded STAB options and the coverage. U are even able to bypass its checks with your AoP (Z-Focus Blast) and the mentioned Gengar and Reuniclus can't come in.Neither is Blissey an optimal option for Hoopa because it often runs only S-Toss thus Blissey can't beat Hoopa at all and Hoopa can just fire off a strong Psyshock. Hoopa is an underrated but good Wall/Stallbreaker in the current metagame because its Movepool allows it to fullfill the aspect of a Wall/Stallbreaker. This is smth Gengar tends to struggle with, cause Hoopa has smth Gengar hasnt, and this is the simple access to Nasty Plot boosting Hoopas already good SpAtt even further.
Sure it cannot avoid to get revenge killed by strong physical priority moves, but the HP stat is still p average and the special defense is really nice giving it some defensive measures still.

Hoopa should really go to C- BECAUSE it has some niches which your mentioned pkmn like Gengar don't have access to.

Hoopa C- is a fine placement.
 

Scizorphobic

love your color, gender or whatever
is a Pre-Contributor
Not gonna echo anything more but it should be noted that the analysis set itself is a bit old and ghostium should ran over fightinium or whatever always. Psyshock is also not needed to break through blissey given hoopa’s raw power.
X. (Hoopa) @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
but yeah rank the strong boi
 

pokeisfun

UU player and community member
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Not gonna echo anything more but it should be noted that the analysis set itself is a bit old and ghostium should ran over fightinium or whatever always. Psyshock is also not needed to break through blissey given hoopa’s raw power.
X. (Hoopa) @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
but yeah rank the strong boi

Why should Ghostium be "always" run over Fightium? It appears in the replay you show there is at least one benefit, an improved Gligar match up, but it would be hardly reasonable to say that benefit is big enough to "always" use Ghostium.

Please answer! I want to build with Hoopa for these stalling UULT losers but am unsure what set to use. Leaning towards Fightium because Focus Miss...
 
Why should Ghostium be "always" run over Fightium? It appears in the replay you show there is at least one benefit, an improved Gligar match up, but it would be hardly reasonable to say that benefit is big enough to "always" use Ghostium.

Please answer! I want to build with Hoopa for these stalling UULT losers but am unsure what set to use. Leaning towards Fightium because Focus Miss...
Pretty much the only stall mon you'd wanna hit with focus blast is blissey, which you can abuse as setup fodder. Focus blast easily KOs at +4, and ghostium allows you to bop gligar amoonguss sylveon and florges at +2. Thats my take on it anyhow.
 

HOOPA IS BAD (Not Hoopa-Unbound, he is good)
: Stay UR
Why are people even using this shit at all? The Sub Nasty Plot set that's been experienced on the ladder is a gimmick that doesn't deserve a niche. Said set is extremely slow, failing to outspeed anything notable bar Scizor, but why would you give a fuck when you could run Scarf Scizor or hit it with Bullet Punch? It doesn't face competition from Gengar, instead, it faces massive amounts of competition from other stallbreakers, such as Reuniclus, who, despite lacking a lot of immediate power and bulk, has better defensive utility, particularly on the physical side, and its mono-Psychic typing doesn't give it a quad weakness to Dark and Ghost, unlike Hoopa. Now yeah, A-muk's lack of presence in the tier and Terrakion being extremely common has given Hoopa new life, but the latter is Hoopa's greatest weakness, with Terrakion essentially outspeeding it and OHKOing it with Stone Edge, before it can even set up Substitute. Reuniclus, on the other hand, can survive a Stone Edge from Terrakion and can threaten to nearly 2HKO it with Psyshock. Besides, the only relevant stall mon it "beats" is Blissey, but it's a stallbreaker that's literally worthless when facing anything else. Other stallbreakers such as Kyurem and Hydreigon provide more utility to a team, hit a wider variety of stall mons, can perform more roles, and have better speed tiers than Hoopa.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 211-249 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 369-435 (122.5 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you see what I mean?
tl;dr: Hoopa is bad, Reuniclus is good. Hoopa is shit when compared to Kyurem and Hydreigon.
Oh, and fuck Magician.
Thus, Hoopa has no distinguishable niche in the meta.

: Drop to B-
Ok, this is an extremely controversial nom that I want to make (looking at you, you little christmASS tree called Mega Sceptile)

Mega Sceptile just hates this meta where fairy-types are the next best thing. Admittedly, it does outspeed all of them and can retaliate back with some of its coverage, which is nice, but as a mega evolution, you're honestly much better off using other mega evolutions, such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Altaria, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Slowbro, Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, Mega Blastoise, Mega Houndoom, and even Mega Pidgeot and Mega Beedrill are better choices despite doing things, such as being able to combat the influx of powerful fairy-types which has happened here, offering more defensive utility, not having to rely on as much team support, and can simply provide more utility to a team. It's just too inconsistent to be viable right now, especially in a meta where powerful fairy-types have became the next best thing again. Not to mention it hates the influx of powerful poison-types which don't even care about anything it throws at it and can just kill it with their STAB moves. Admittedly, it has a better matchup versus Gligar, which is why it shouldn't go to C+, but honestly, this idiot rising was not the right decision in my opinion. #MegaBeedrillFTWMegaSceptileFTL
This argument for Hoopa-C is pretty much wrong.

You literally say the only stall mon it beats is Blissey, which is wrong. It also beats the unaware bulky waters, Amoongus, Gligar, and even mega Aggron if you pull a sub on the switch. Your next argument is that you say it's too slow, and i'll admit, against offensive teams, it's not MAero levels of fast. but you're primarily using Hoopa-C's advantages against STALL, where 70 base speed is perfectly okay, as most stall mons are super slow. Literally the only mon that's commonly seen on stall that outspeeds Hoopa-C is Gligar, who doesn't even run any speed and is therefore Substitute bait, and Moltres, who doesn't do jack shit thanks to Hoopa's decent Sp.Def. Next you compare it to Reuniclus, both of which are stallbreakers, yet both of which do FAR different things. Reuniclus is more of a bulky breaker that "slowly accumulates boosts"(-quote from RedXThree btw), while Hoopa is a slightly faster, more powerful wallbreaker with the ability to run over teams given the right play. Also, at least Hoopa doesn't give a free switch-in to specs primarina, and it also doesn't struggle with blissey, unlike Kyurem and Hydreigon. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

im down for a mscept drop tho
 
Also reuniclus, while being a decent wallbreaker, struggles vs stalls that use CB scizor or doublade, hoopa is protected from bpunch and shadow sneak by the substitute which can be set up easily on opposing blisseys or alomomolas not running knock off. However, hoopa is, most of the time, a sitting duck vs offense and offensive oriented balanced teams due to its underwhelming speed and bad physical defense, but i think it's a good pick on teams that want a really hard hitting special attacker that breaks bulkier builds, since i can't really think of something that reliably takes care of hoopa on stall. I can see it being C- or even C on the VR imo
 

yeezyknows

Banned deucer.
imagine, for a second, if a mon existed that countered latias, m-alt, AND primarina.

now then imagine if this mon could set spikes

why young lord yeezy, this mon would have to be at least b-rank, right? possibly one of the tier's best hazard setters, no?

well what if i told you this mon was unranked? you'd be intrigued, possibly outraged, correct?

this lord of a multifaceted mon is none other than big ferroseed himself, NU's preeminent B- rank mon.

I am proposing that ferroseed become ranked, in large part due to the following UUPL replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-435416

In this game, featuring two premier smogon players: charmflash and lycans, ferroseed features prominently, practically countering m-alt despite being tricked lefties and frozen for a good majority of the match. ferroseed set hazards, and was a massive annoyance for lycans' build to handle, despite lycans massive skill as a player.

it's evident that ferroseed has usage and viability, and i'm proposing a C- rank rise for the mon. its ability to set spikes, while also serving to counter/hard check a bevy of A/S rank threats ultimately makes it worthy of a position alongside other highly niche mons.



UR --> C-/C
 
imagine, for a second, if a mon existed that countered latias, m-alt, AND primarina.

now then imagine if this mon could set spikes

why young lord yeezy, this mon would have to be at least b-rank, right? possibly one of the tier's best hazard setters, no?

well what if i told you this mon was unranked? you'd be intrigued, possibly outraged, correct?

this lord of a multifaceted mon is none other than big ferroseed himself, NU's preeminent B- rank mon.

I am proposing that ferroseed become ranked, in large part due to the following UUPL replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-435416

In this game, featuring two premier smogon players: charmflash and lycans, ferroseed features prominently, practically countering m-alt despite being tricked lefties and frozen for a good majority of the match. ferroseed set hazards, and was a massive annoyance for lycans' build to handle, despite lycans massive skill as a player.

it's evident that ferroseed has usage and viability, and i'm proposing a C- rank rise for the mon. its ability to set spikes, while also serving to counter/hard check a bevy of A/S rank threats ultimately makes it worthy of a position alongside other highly niche mons.



UR --> C-/C
Hi, yeezyknows! I just wanna ask a few questions, if that's cool :)

Is the set gonna be the same set for NU, or is it gonna be different? EV's placed somewhere else, different moves?

Maybe a mixed wall set perhaps?
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
imagine, for a second, if a mon existed that countered latias, m-alt, AND primarina.

now then imagine if this mon could set spikes

why young lord yeezy, this mon would have to be at least b-rank, right? possibly one of the tier's best hazard setters, no?

well what if i told you this mon was unranked? you'd be intrigued, possibly outraged, correct?

this lord of a multifaceted mon is none other than big ferroseed himself, NU's preeminent B- rank mon.

I am proposing that ferroseed become ranked, in large part due to the following UUPL replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-435416

In this game, featuring two premier smogon players: charmflash and lycans, ferroseed features prominently, practically countering m-alt despite being tricked lefties and frozen for a good majority of the match. ferroseed set hazards, and was a massive annoyance for lycans' build to handle, despite lycans massive skill as a player.

it's evident that ferroseed has usage and viability, and i'm proposing a C- rank rise for the mon. its ability to set spikes, while also serving to counter/hard check a bevy of A/S rank threats ultimately makes it worthy of a position alongside other highly niche mons.



UR --> C-/C
Nitpicking like hell here but its only really a Latias stop if you can find the room to run Toxic or something else, as Latias will stall Gyro PP even while seeded so while you end up with a bunch of Spikes up, Latias seeded with a load of Roosts wasted you haven’t actually dealt with it per se. Definitely a good pivot if you pair it with something to offensively pressure Latias though (like aero!!) and worth adding to the VR for sure.

Hi, yeezyknows! I just wanna ask a few questions, if that's cool :)

Is the set gonna be the same set for NU, or is it gonna be different? EV's placed somewhere else, different moves?

Maybe a mixed wall set perhaps?
I don’t know what Charmflash used in his game, you might be able to calc the spreads but I’d go max SpDef. You start taking too much out of SpDef you’ll find yourself starting to get 3HKOed by Primarina which is going to get really annoying if they have a way to deny your leech seed or you want to get spikes up. Physically based Altaria is barely a threat even with no Defense investment. You’re going to need Gyro / Spikes / Leech to make use of Ferro’s niche, the last slot is slightly more debatable but given that you can’t run Leftovers, Protect really helps to maximise Leech recovery and does its usual scouting stuff.
 
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Diancie for B -> 50/50
OK Diancie can fit in heal bell rocks which is quite a good role compression and also soft-hard check the dragons in the tier. Being able to come in on hydreigon sets such as Scarf or Specs and being able to hit it back feels nice. It could also threaten tom-heat with diamond storm if it wants to get rid of rocks. However I feel like it is weak to most common rockers. 50/150/150 defenses is nice but if you take super effective hits constantly, you are not going to be able to last for long. Being weak 4x weak to steel is of course a bane since scizor is everywhere. However that role compression is so nice and if your team is dragons weak, you can put in diancie and call it a day.
 
First nom (i will edit this later)
Drop to B-
Ok, this is an extremely controversial nom that I want to make (looking at you, you little christmASS tree called Mega Sceptile)

Mega Sceptile just hates this meta where fairy-types are the next best thing. Admittedly, it does outspeed all of them and can retaliate back with some of its coverage, which is nice, but as a mega evolution, you're honestly much better off using other mega evolutions, such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Altaria, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Slowbro, Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, Mega Blastoise, Mega Houndoom, and even Mega Pidgeot and Mega Beedrill are better choices despite doing things, such as being able to combat the influx of powerful fairy-types which has happened here, offering more defensive utility, not having to rely on as much team support, and can simply provide more utility to a team. It's just too inconsistent to be viable right now, especially in a meta where powerful fairy-types have became the next best thing again. Not to mention it hates the influx of powerful poison-types which don't even care about anything it throws at it and can just kill it with their STAB moves. Admittedly, it has a better matchup versus Gligar, which is why it shouldn't go to C+, but honestly, this idiot rising was not the right decision in my opinion. #MegaBeedrillFTWMegaSceptileFTL
172319

Time for my arguments of why I disagree SO HARD with this nomination.
First, why are you staying in with Sceptile in fairies or poison bois?
Let's talk about the megas you mentioned. Mega Aero can't lure in things, Mega Alt is Slower and also weak to fairy, Mega Shark relies on Protect to waste a slot that could be useful, Mega Slowbro is just slow af and passive, relying on boosts and recovery to deal actual damage and surviving, Aggron and Lix are passive af and once again rely on boosts to survive (aggron doesn't even have one), Mega Blastoise can't wall too much, Mega Houndoom is slower and actually has less defensive utility, Mega Pidgeot is even weaker than this Christmas Tree, Beedrill gets walled by everything in this tier and forced to u-turn on stealth rocks, and most importantly, ALL OF THOSE MEGAS DO DIFFERENT THINGS.
Sceptile also liked the extra prominence of lots of waters that it walls, which means it has actual defensive utility. Thus, Sceptile is more consistent than its B- Mega brothers.
Mega Sceptile: Stay B
 
First nom (i will edit this later)

View attachment 172319
Time for my arguments of why I disagree SO HARD with this nomination.
First, why are you staying in with Sceptile in fairies or poison bois?
Let's talk about the megas you mentioned. Mega Aero can't lure in things, Mega Alt is Slower and also weak to fairy, Mega Shark relies on Protect to waste a slot that could be useful, Mega Slowbro is just slow af and passive, relying on boosts and recovery to deal actual damage and surviving, Aggron and Lix are passive af and once again rely on boosts to survive (aggron doesn't even have one), Mega Blastoise can't wall too much, Mega Houndoom is slower and actually has less defensive utility, Mega Pidgeot is even weaker than this Christmas Tree, Beedrill gets walled by everything in this tier and forced to u-turn on stealth rocks, and most importantly, ALL OF THOSE MEGAS DO DIFFERENT THINGS.
Sceptile also liked the extra prominence of lots of waters that it walls, which means it has actual defensive utility. Thus, Sceptile is more consistent than its B- Mega brothers.
Mega Sceptile: Stay B
: Drop to B-
Ok, this is an extremely controversial nom that I want to make (looking at you, you little christmASS tree called Mega Sceptile)

Mega Sceptile just hates this meta where fairy-types are the next best thing. Admittedly, it does outspeed all of them and can retaliate back with some of its coverage, which is nice, but as a mega evolution, you're honestly much better off using other mega evolutions, such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Altaria, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Slowbro, Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, Mega Blastoise, Mega Houndoom, and even Mega Pidgeot and Mega Beedrill are better choices despite doing things, such as being able to combat the influx of powerful fairy-types which has happened here, offering more defensive utility, not having to rely on as much team support, and can simply provide more utility to a team. It's just too inconsistent to be viable right now, especially in a meta where powerful fairy-types have became the next best thing again. Not to mention it hates the influx of powerful poison-types which don't even care about anything it throws at it and can just kill it with their STAB moves. Admittedly, it has a better matchup versus Gligar, which is why it shouldn't go to C+, but honestly, this idiot rising was not the right decision in my opinion. #MegaBeedrillFTWMegaSceptileFTL
There are some flaws in BOTH of your arguements but I absolutely disagree with a drop to B-. I disagree more with prism because of his misleading reasoning, and bad examples. Both of you are overlooking niches mons have, and the christmas tree has a good amount of viable niches because it has one completely flexible moveslot allowing it to further choose its matchups and can block electric moves, allowing it to interrupt volt turn and soak electrium z from latias and nihilego.

Im going to point out flaws in seperate paragraphs so I can carefully and fully give my counterarguments and highlight valuable points.

Starting with lixprism, of the three valuable fairies in the tier, it doesnt like 2 of them. But being able to scare away primarina is huge. Even with its flaws versus mega altaria and togekiss, it can honestly drop hp fire for hp ice to allow it to better deal with these mons. And with your point about poison types, that is just plain false. The only three poison types you are ever going to see in uu: Psychedelic Muk, Nidoking, and Amoonguss. Mega Sceptile can deal with two of these mons with its good coverage, because again it has a completely flexible moveslot if not two. Comparing Mega Sceptile to other megas is also not very applicable, as they have different niches and separate teams they function on. And your point about defensive utility is utterly false as well. Mega Beedrill has utterly no defensive uses, and the same applies to mega houndoom. They dont provide any function to a team defensively, as they both have heavily offensive typings that utterly flop on balance teams without heavy compensation. Most of your points were misinformed, but yet again I cant be talking too much shit.

Now to pablo, which I can agree somewhat more with. You did a pretty good job pointing out grievances, but some examples such as mega slowbro and the two steelybois isnt correct. Mega slowbro doesnt really require calm mind, as it is meant to sit there and wall mons like terrakion, and trap blissey depending on sets. Aggron and lix are NEVER all that passive. And while curse helps lix a bit, its not a necessity at all to help it do its job. Aggron and lix are pretty decent offensively, because of their stupid bulk and good physical attack stats. Steelix is much more passible offensively because of its highpowered stab attacks, but Aggron does better defensively because of its better bulk thanks to filter and its monosteel typing leaving it neutral to water and resistant to ice and grass. Pointing out mege pidgeots weaker offenses is also a bad example, and should have been talking about its bad defensive typing instead and its stealth rocks weakness. And water types aren't really walled by mega sceptile, but are scared out because of leaf storm.

My addition to this, is that Mega Sceptiles real problem has always lied in its weak power. When it uses leaf storm, it loses any offensive prowess against teams, and SD sets are fringe and almost completely unviable. It also struggles to break defensive pokemon because of its low power, and therefore can be pretty useless in some matchups. But lightning rod and its ability to choose its matchups is valuable in the meta, and proper play allows Mega Sceptile to become quite scary.
 
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Hello. Local unuser BAYB is back to provide noms. Let’s get started:

Keep A
Here to provide a case for Cobalion on why it should stay A. While Terrakion is a brute force on its own behalf, Cobalion on the other hand is still a versatile and somewhat shocking threat. I believe that Steelium is the best item on Cobalion currently as that lets it bust through Gligar and Moltres. Cobalion still has a bit of a surprise factor when it comes to its item slot between Rocky Helmet and Shuca as well. People are seriously glossing over the Calm Mind set though as its a genuinely surprising set that is pretty nasty at beating counterplay like Tentacruel and Doublade with Gigavolt Havoc. It’s still got some decent defensive utility anyway as checking Scizor, Hydreigon, and unboosted Mega Altarias is still relevant in the tier. Cobalion’s surprise factor, defensive utility, and versatility between different sweeping sets is what offers it a niche over Terrakion and justifies its placement.

Scizorphobic vs Lycans is a solid replay that showcases Cobalion. Lycans is able to remove Mega Aerodactyl with little drawbacks by virtue of a Shuca Berry while punishing Phobic for missplaying his Azelf. On the other hand, Scizorphobic dominates the end-game with his Rock Polish Cobalion and forces him to sack his Mega Aerodactyl to Cobalion’s Z-move.


FLCL vs vivalospride shows Calm Mind Cobalion surprising Viv in the early game and immediately taking out Mamoswine while annoying Jellicent.


Hippowdon to A-
Crazy nomination I guess but I believe that Hippowdon offers just as much to the table as Gligar. Swords Dance sets of Terrakion are currently running Rockium more so that means Hippowdon can punish this set. Hippowdon’s passive recovery and Sand Stream to support Mega Aerodactyl still makes it a decent pick in this metagame. Phasing out Mega Altaria is also seriously vital when it denies all status currently. Hippowdon has enough going for it that it can go back into the A ranks in my opinion.

Drop to B-
Chesnaught hype died just as fast as it rose. Chesnaught for the longest time has been clunky as hell for a Spiker. It doesn’t help Chesnaught’s case that there are simply Spikers that share its Grass-type that are superior options. Ferroseed is better defensively with its typing while Roserade is superior offensively due to them pressuring out Primarina and Mega Altaria.

Drop to C/C-
This Pokémon still exists. The only niche I see Mantine having is Water Absorb and a unique typing but you still lose to the shit you’re absorbing hits from like Primarina and Suicune. It sucks that you’re hazard removal that’s weak to rocks but it sucks even more that you’re vulnerable as all hell to being pivoted by Volt Switch when it’s still fairly potent in this metagame. It honestly baffles me that Mantine is somehow ranked above Gastrodon. Gastrodon is more relevant of a tank with its anti Rotom-H typing to let it check Latias. Bad mon. Should’ve dropped even further last shift.

These are all my noms. Thanks for reading as usual.
 
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vivalospride

tuh
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
Keep A
Here to provide a case for Cobalion on why it should stay A. While Terrakion is a brute force on its own behalf, Cobalion on the other hand is still a versatile and somewhat shocking threat. I believe that Steelium is the best item on Cobalion currently as that lets it bust through Gligar and Moltres. Cobalion still has a bit of a surprise factor when it comes to its item slot between Rocky Helmet and Shuca as well. People are seriously glossing over the Calm Mind set though as its a genuinely surprising set that is pretty nasty at beating counterplay like Tentacruel and Doublade with Gigavolt Havoc. It’s still got some decent defensive utility anyway as checking Scizor, Hydreigon, and unboosted Mega Altarias is still relevant in the tier. Cobalion’s surprise factor, defensive utility, and versatility between different sweeping sets is what offers it a niche over Terrakion and justifies its placement.

Scizorphobic vs Lycans is a solid replay that showcases Cobalion. Lycans is able to remove Mega Aerodactyl with little drawbacks by virtue of a Shuca Berry while punishing Phobic for missplaying his Azelf. On the other hand, Scizorphobic dominates the end-game with his Rock Polish Cobalion and forces him to sack his Mega Aerodactyl to Cobalion’s Z-move.

FLCL vs vivalospride shows Calm Mind Cobalion surprising Viv in the early game and immediately taking out Mamoswine while annoying Jellicent.

252 SpA Cobalion Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 306-362 (84.7 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

This replay shows Coba dying turn one 94% of the time. So idk if it's the best example, regardless of this though. I do agree Cobalion should remain A just cause Kommo-o is no longer UU. Cobalion I think is like the premier rocker on BO rn and I find myself plopping it onto literally like 70% of offenses with scarf krook also on it. I see no reason for this mon going down on the VR tbh.
 

dingbat

snek
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Now that mega sableye is finally gone, time to make some noms

Gonna back up this rhyp nomination from C+ to B. Being a non-passive hazard setter while being annoyingly bulky is really, really appreciated and in my recent experiences with using this, it has put in a lot more work on a consistent basis than all the other C+ mons and most B- mons. Additionally, the fact that hp grass on m-mane has become very uncommon again due to the high usage of gligar has allowed rhyp to be a very solid check to it once again.
Been running this fucker lately on offense; like rhyp, it's pretty annoying to kill and like rhyp, has benefitted from fewer hp grass m-mane. Additionally, I've also found counter a cool option to punish shit like scizor u-turn switchins although losing out on roar/toxic sucks sometimes. Raise this to B too.
Definitely has the potential to be a good antimeta mon again, especially given the current state of this meta's dominant threats. Although mummy can still be a double-edged sword at times, it still serves as a unique way to cut sweeps short from threats like sciz, m-alt, and m-shark short due to their heavy dependence on their abilities. C+ is fine since it still needs significant support in order to successfully punish opponents offensively, but it's definitely a cool 'mon on my radar again.
 

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