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I disgaree with this nomination. Gyarados has always been one of the most effective set up sweeper water has access to. It is also one of the best Z move users as it does a good job in breaking down Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur and Toxapex and do well against Bug-type teams too as water teams tend to struggle against Poison and Bug. Note: Bug teams heavily cteam water by using stuff like Vikavolt which has seen some usage in tournaments and Psy Z volcarona. You compared it with other A rank pokemon such as Keldeo, Mantine, Suicune etc which all have different roles. Gyarados does a neat job breaking down aforementioned types while also not being a dead weight in other match ups. Its decent bulk and ability allows it to effectively fulfill this role on water teams.
Completely understandable, was just throwing the discussion out there. What I will address is that I might have not been as clear in my comparison. When I compared Gyarados to Mantine, Keldeo, and Suicune, I meant that those aforementioned mons fill such critical roles to any Water team; at least in my eyes making the nomination, I did not feel that Gyarados mandated such a critical role. I did not mean to imply that they accomplish the same role, which (at least in the case of Gyarados vs. Mantine) they clearly do not. It may be one of the best Z move sweepers Water has available, but is that single role justifiable in its high rank? Personally I think not.
On the other hand, if Bug teams utilize Pokemon like Vikavolt and Psychium Z/HP Electric Volcarona just to "heavily cteam" Water teams, wouldn't that mean that Bug's matchup vs. Water is orignally difficult to handle with the usual bread and butter options to the point that it has to resort to less than desirable options? Forgoing HP Ground and Giga Drain on Volcarona (though common now) seems very detrimental against other key matchups and foes, namely against Heatran as it hard walls Psychium Z sets, as well as Water/Ground types like Gastrodon that can take advantage of Volcarona's lack of Giga Drain or Swampert to easily phaze Volcarona away and set hazards. For Vikavolt on the other hand (which isn't even ranked on the VR btw), the uses of Araquanid, Armaldo, Scizor, and Volcarona are practically mandated on Bug leaving it to occupy a teamslot forgoing either of the following: Mega Pinsir, Heracross, Galvantula, and perhaps Buzzwole; all of which are amazing in their own right. While it might have a niche in higher level play, the aforementioned mons have a valuable and reliable bread and butter about them that shouldn't be easily passed up over the small niche Vikavolt has imo.
tl;dr: Gyarados' only niche as a Z-move sweeper isn't as important or crucial to Water teams when looking at the other Pokemon. It's still good, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's on the same level of Keldeo, Suicune, Mega Swampert and such.
As far as gyara goes, It does bring a fair amount to the table when taking on poison teams that like to slowly rock water teams to sleep, but as far as bug goes I wouldn’t say that bug has as much of an advantage against water right now. I think it’s fairly easy to pressure the hell out of bug with water even without gyara. SS has been doing better in the current meta and bug doesn’t really have all that much to slow rain down and bulkier oriented teams don’t fold either, they can still pressure bug supported by high level play. I see gyara rn as one of those mons that when used well can seem like an A rank mon, but I like the drop because it realistically isnt a mon that you can just brainlessly hit dd at any point throughout the game and expect to holepunch or win a game. It has decent natural spD but it really can’t take two hits from anything and it does get left open to priority against a lot of types. I don’t want to make the case for it being a bad mom however, I use it on pretty much every water team I use because I generally like to use more aggressive builds, but that comes with the price of knowing how to use it effectively. You have to manage SR, you have to pick your moments and be clever with how you holepunch to let gyara do what it does best. The other A rank water mons are generally the type that people can pick up and put to good use without as much thought. I don’t see gyara as a mon rn that a less experienced player can chuck on a team and use it the right way because again, it realistically isn’t a mon that you can do that with right now. And that notion alone is why I feel like a drop to B is actually ok. It’s easy to put gyara on a higher pedestal because it’s really effective for people who use it the right way, but you have to look at more angles when it comes it ranking mons even though to some it may seem like it’s as good as a lot the higher ranked water pokes.
Would confirm Water being one of Bug's hardest matchups from jump with/without Gyara as Rain makes Bug enormously dependent on maintaining webs throughout the match. Given our two frailest mons also happen to be the most important in the matchup (Galv w/ Sash + coverage moves & Volc with Giga Drain) Gyarados becomes especially dangerous when you consider both a) its immunity to webs in base form and b) Bug's preoccupation with setting up before the rain sweeper does.
When deciding where to rank M-Beedrill, it's critical to consider it within the context of opportunity cost vs. your other Megas, which you've already pointed out. I think of M-Beedrill as an equivalent to M-Absol (unranked,) which while ostensibly a good mon, acts more as a winmoar than actual utility in the any of the relevant type matchups. Beedrill's biggest issue isn't that it dies to physical attacks but the loss of priority and Fighting coverage you get with both M-Pinsir and M-Scizor (a necessity for Normal and Steel.) I cannot stress this enough.
Outside of momentum dependency, Bug's largest issue on the whole is dealing with types that either don't care about Webs (Flying) or have ready access to speed control. Though Beedrill has an insane speed tier at base 145, it becomes death fodder for prominent scarfers (Lando-T, Greninja) against whom it can not afford to switch out repeatedly as you forfeit momentum to your opponent. This makes priority ridiculously important. The other gamebreaker for me occurs in the event you are unable to get rocks off the field, in which case Beedrill becomes more and more of a burden each time you click U-Turn. The reason Bug doesn't abuse U-Turn has less to do with lack of good U-Turn users than the fact you will be forced to play through SR higher on the ladder: M-Scizor has survivability and M-Pinsir shouldn't have to enter the match more than once. It becomes significantly worse when you consider Beedrill's 4MSS, as running Swords Dance means you can't run Knock Off, which imo is far better suited to potential role as a fast pivot. And yes, while you can and probably should be running Knock Off on Scizor/Heracross as partner, you cover far fewer relevant threats running Beedrill + Scizor/Heracross than you do Pinsir and a partner. I'm just not sold here.
This mon is absolutely fantastic. Aside from being the best defensive check to Fire-types for Bug teams, the rise of Spider Web trapping sets have now enabled Bug to reliably break down some of the biggest threats to themselves, as it uses Spider Web, Soak, and Toxic to break down Celesteela, Toxapex, Mega Venusaur, Mantine, and others, enabling teammates like Mega Pinsir and Volcarona to setup and sweep much easier. It's a staple on any and all Bug teams, and any team that doesn't have one is at a disadvantage because its positives outweigh any and all negatives, and its roles are very beneficial to Bug's success. It definitely deserves the rise.
This is one I'll have to disagree with, and would advocate for Araquanid to stay where it is, if not drop down into the fictional A- tier, if only for the simple fact that it isn't better than Galvantula. With the exception of Celesteela, Bug has a ready answer to each of the threats you've named (and even Celesteela can be dealt with by playing Galv conservatively.) While it provides a much needed Fire check, Araquanid is a painfully slow mon that kills offensive momentum and doesn't particularly help out much in your matchup against Flying (Lando-T is a pain, but there are options.) Though it's much frailer, Galv nets the same KOs bar M-Venu while more importantly providing you a secondary special threat that can help lessen the burden Volcarona faces in harder matchups such as Poison and Water (where you have a more than negligible chance of one-shotting Pelipper or Swampert on the switch turn 1.) In foregoing Galvantula, you also significantly worsen an already tenuous matchup with Electric, due in large part to Araquanid's weakness, but more centrally because you give up the ability to 2HKO Zapdos under Electric Terrain. This is particularly important as Raichu aside, Zapdos is generally the only barrier preventing a Moxie sweep when Webs are up.
Yes, this is why I put it at A, for reasons that I described at the end of my post.
The beginning of this makes a lot of sense, and you're absolutely correct in the fact that there aren't many results to look at given how young it is. That being said, I take issue with the idea of placing it at B rank for the sake of future experimentation. If it is given a rank, that's analyzing what we know right now and how it scales up in its type and in the meta. Yes, it has room to grow or fall from expectation, but that is more of a reason to keep in unranked instead of putting it at B. Looking at it simply on paper compared to those who work to fill it's role, they are all similar enough to where one doesn't provide unique utility over another. Thundurus' only unique asset would be prankster TWave / Taunt. Electivire just utterly fails to compete, and Zeraora outclasses Thundurus in speed and rivals it in terms of offensive pressure, causing it to serve as an alternative to Thundurus, if not simply outclassing it (not to mention Thundurus has to rely on superpower, hampening its cleaning ability).
Zeraora is more than a solid midground. It is the co-champion, if not champion, of its role in electric, and works to aid some of electrics worst matchups.
Is it fantastic in the metagame? By no means.
Does it need time to develop more so we can see where it fits in the meta? Yeah, sure.
That being said, judging it on paper and through ladder practice, I would say Zeraora deserves an A rank.
Agreed. For me the primary argument justifying Zera's inclusion in A is 143. The main constraint I see at present is the inability to Knock Off + KO Chansey/P2 without having to switch out, though this can be rectified through use of an LO set. Band is damn good, don't get me wrong, but I don't know it'll be the standard forever.
Meowstic performs a vital role on Hyper Offensive teams; it sets screens. Why is this important, and what makes Meowstic an alternative to other available screen setters, namely Deoxys-Speed?
Dual screens provide an obvious benefit for HO teams. Your Pokemon take less damage, allowing them to deal damage over more turns than they would otherwise, and since offensive investment precludes defensive investment, HO teams appreciate the extra protection. Due to Psychic's access to base 600 Pokemon such as Victini, Mew, and Jirachi, Psychic teams benefit greatly from having screens up as these Pokemon can fully invest in offense and retain considerable bulk, especially while screens are up. Dual screens also alleviate pressure that might make you think twice about switching, which is a tool that should be utilized aggressively with HO builds. Most importantly, screens provide a window wherein you can set up your sweepers whether it's double dance Mew, Swords Dance Mega-Gallade, or even Z-Happy Hour Jirachi.
There are many things that differentiate Meowstic from Deoxys-Speed in respect towards their ability to contribute to the team as screen setters. Meowstic's access to Prankster allows it to fully invest in defenses, unlike Deoxys which must invest in speed. Deoxys' dual function as a rock setter and screen setter exposes Deoxys early game, threatening its ability to set up screens later on. This is important because the primary function of screens on Psychic is to allow your sweepers to set up; it is often best to lay the groundwork for the sweep early-mid game so that your sweepers can properly set up and proceed uninhibited. Meowstic does not have this issue, and can reliably set up screens mid-late game, even in the face of fast threats that Deoxys fails to deal with such as Sand Rush Excadrill and Choice Scarf Greninja.
By no means am I attempting to indicate that Meowstic should be used in lieu of Deoxys-Speed. Au contrare, Deoxys-Speed is the premiere suicide lead of the tier, and utilizing dual screens Meowstic opens up Deoxys' movepool, allowing it to use moves such as Knock Off, Spikes, Thunder Wave, and Psycho Boost, among others. I could go on further about how this role decompression benefits the team, but this is a nomination for Meowstic, not Deoxys.
Meowstic utilizes Prankster screens along with some other supporting moves that help to disrupt it's opponent, similar to Klefki. Meowstic has access to status moves such as Thunder Wave and Toxic as well as support moves such as Heal Bell or even Mean Look, Skill Swap, and Snatch, and although I probably wouldn't recommend those last three, there is one distinguishing move that makes Meowstic the threat that it is; Yawn.
Yawn provides Meowstic the ability to switch with relative safety by pressuring the opponent with the threat of sleep status. Not only does this move make switching out of Meowstic easier, it also stops the Pokemon who might attempt to set up on Meowstic dead in their tracks. Should the opponent deign to stay in rather than switch out, a set up sweep should be able to be performed with ease.
Meowstic's Prankster is a double edged sword. While it does set up screens and inflict status onto opponents, it cannot status Dark Pokemon. Dark Pokemon can switch onto Meowstic without fear of being statused, although the ensuing fallout is generally mitigated by the presence of screens Meowstic provides along with general usage of aggressive switching which, as I mentioned before, is essential to the HO archetype. This is mostly problematic with Mega-Sharpedo due to its usage of Psychic Fangs, nullifying the mitigation screens provide for the team. Meowstic's excellent support movepool stands alongside middling offensive capabilities, making him rather passive. To make the most of this, I run Energy Ball on Meowstic, which forces Sharpedo to allow screens to remain if it doesn't outright kill Sharpedo, or at least break its substitute. Energy Ball on Meowstic also allows it to hit bulky Water/Ground types that HO Psychic tends to dislike such as Swampert, Gastrodon, Quagsire, and Seismitoad. Obviously, in the case of a matchup against Dark, Meowstic's total inability to status the enemy team is unfortunate. However, this is generally a losing matchup regardless.
Meowstic mostly serves a supporting role for Hyper Offensive teams, and the fact that your rock setter is no longer also your screen setter all contribute to limited team options compared to Pokemon that would fit on a Balanced build.
My personal set, 80 SpA EVs are for more power on Energy Ball to gauruntee a OHKO on pre-mega Sharpedo, although you do sacrifice some defense for it.
80 SpA Meowstic-M Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo: 248-292 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
80 SpA Meowstic-M Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 224-268 (55.4 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
80 SpA Meowstic-M Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 344-408 (87.3 - 103.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
80 SpA Meowstic-M Energy Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Seismitoad: 208-248 (54.7 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
80 SpA Meowstic-M Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 204-240 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I have hit #1 on the ladder on multiple occasions, peaking at 1898 ELO, and Meowstic carried me. Despite his increased usage as of late (and not only because I'm using him!) and my accomplishments being proof of his potency, Meowstic as of yet remains Unranked, with the likes of non-mega Gallade and Pokemon who have lower usage rates sitting on the VR. I would like to see that change.
Meowstic performs a vital role on Hyper Offensive teams; it sets screens. Why is this important, and what makes Meowstic an alternative to other available screen setters, namely Deoxys-Speed?
Dual screens provide an obvious benefit for HO teams. Your Pokemon take less damage, allowing them to deal damage over more turns than they would otherwise, and since offensive investment precludes defensive investment, HO teams appreciate the extra protection. Due to Psychic's access to base 600 Pokemon such as Victini, Mew, and Jirachi, Psychic teams benefit greatly from having screens up as these Pokemon can fully invest in offense and retain considerable bulk, especially while screens are up. Dual screens also alleviate pressure that might make you think twice about switching, which is a tool that should be utilized aggressively with HO builds. Most importantly, screens provide a window wherein you can set up your sweepers whether it's double dance Mew, Swords Dance Mega-Gallade, or even Z-Happy Hour Jirachi.
There are many things that differentiate Meowstic from Deoxys-Speed in respect towards their ability to contribute to the team as screen setters. Meowstic's access to Prankster allows it to fully invest in defenses, unlike Deoxys which must invest in speed. Deoxys' dual function as a rock setter and screen setter exposes Deoxys early game, threatening its ability to set up screens later on. This is important because the primary function of screens on Psychic is to allow your sweepers to set up; it is often best to lay the groundwork for the sweep early-mid game so that your sweepers can properly set up and proceed uninhibited. Meowstic does not have this issue, and can reliably set up screens mid-late game, even in the face of fast threats that Deoxys fails to deal with such as Sand Rush Excadrill and Choice Scarf Greninja.
By no means am I attempting to indicate that Meowstic should be used in lieu of Deoxys-Speed. Au contrare, Deoxys-Speed is the premiere suicide lead of the tier, and utilizing dual screens Meowstic opens up Deoxys' movepool, allowing it to use moves such as Knock Off, Spikes, Thunder Wave, and Psycho Boost, among others. I could go on further about how this role decompression benefits the team, but this is a nomination for Meowstic, not Deoxys.
Meowstic utilizes Prankster screens along with some other supporting moves that help to disrupt it's opponent, similar to Klefki. Meowstic has access to status moves such as Thunder Wave and Toxic as well as support moves such as Heal Bell or even Mean Look, Skill Swap, and Snatch, and although I probably wouldn't recommend those last three, there is one distinguishing move that makes Meowstic the threat that it is; Yawn.
Yawn provides Meowstic the ability to switch with relative safety by pressuring the opponent with the threat of sleep status. Not only does this move make switching out of Meowstic easier, it also stops the Pokemon who might attempt to set up on Meowstic dead in their tracks. Should the opponent deign to stay in rather than switch out, a set up sweep should be able to be performed with ease.
Meowstic's Prankster is a double edged sword. While it does set up screens and inflict status onto opponents, it cannot status Dark Pokemon. Dark Pokemon can switch onto Meowstic without fear of being statused, although the ensuing fallout is generally mitigated by the presence of screens Meowstic provides along with general usage of aggressive switching which, as I mentioned before, is essential to the HO archetype. This is mostly problematic with Mega-Sharpedo due to its usage of Psychic Fangs, nullifying the mitigation screens provide for the team. Meowstic's excellent support movepool stands alongside middling offensive capabilities, making him rather passive. To make the most of this, I run Energy Ball on Meowstic, which forces Sharpedo to allow screens to remain if it doesn't outright kill Sharpedo, or at least break its substitute. Energy Ball on Meowstic also allows it to hit bulky Water/Ground types that HO Psychic tends to dislike such as Swampert, Gastrodon, Quagsire, and Seismitoad. Obviously, in the case of a matchup against Dark, Meowstic's total inability to status the enemy team is unfortunate. However, this is generally a losing matchup regardless.
View attachment 147910Meowstic mostly serves a supporting role for Hyper Offensive teams, and the fact that your rock setter is no longer also your screen setter all contributes to limited team options compared to Pokemon that would fit on a Balanced build.
My personal set, 80 SpA EVs are for more power on Energy Ball to gauruntee a OHKO on pre-mega Sharpedo, although you do sacrifice some defense for it.
80 SpA Meowstic-M Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo: 248-292 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
80 SpA Meowstic-M Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 224-268 (55.4 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
80 SpA Meowstic-M Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 344-408 (87.3 - 103.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
80 SpA Meowstic-M Energy Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Seismitoad: 208-248 (54.7 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
80 SpA Meowstic-M Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 204-240 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I have hit #1 on the ladder on multiple occasions, peaking at 1898 ELO, and Meowstic carried me. Despite his increased usage as of late (and not only because I'm using him!) and my accomplishments being proof of his potency, Meowstic as of yet remains Unranked, with the likes of non-mega Gallade and Pokemon who have lower usage rates sitting on the VR. I would like to see that change.
Alright I like how this is done as a letter... anyways the flaws with Meowstic is your making it out to be a dual screens mon, while also saying "it can check the biggest threats on psychic such as sharpedo mega".... Yeah maybe in Gen 6... not in Gen 7.
Anyways cool Eball kills water ground... ABSOLUTELY MIND BLOWING.... Revelation shattering information there... one problem
A much better pokemon called Latias can use Eball. Or if worse case Celebi, the only thing Meowstic has over any other mon is Yawn, even then its yawn is not great to have it around as it cant effect dark mons, meaning pokemon like Muk A, Mandibuzz, Greninja (who you even put in the post) just to name a few can handle your so called magnum opus.
Lastly Deoxys S makes a far better dual screens mon for Psychic, while also possibly damaging the opponent... or setting up some hazards if wanted instead.
Honestly if we had an "E" rank or a D- rank id put it there... it doesn't exactly do much but dual screens... I know you could say it has some niches, its just that its more of a surprise pick that could surprise some players... for example I have a replay where I easily beat your team with Bulky Mew with Knock off..... Honestly your just picking it in hopes it doesn't die before reflect and such...
in your match with Sungod it came down to a prediction and he made a mispredict which lost him the game... honestly with enough prediction I could make Zigzagoon look like an S rank mon
Alright I like how this is done as a letter... anyways the flaws with Meowstic is your making it out to be a dual screens mon, while also saying "it can check the biggest threats on psychic such as sharpedo mega".... Yeah maybe in Gen 6... not in Gen 7.
Anyways cool Eball kills water ground... ABSOLUTELY MIND BLOWING.... Revelation shattering information there... one problem
A much better pokemon called Latias can use Eball. Or if worse case Celebi, the only thing Meowstic has over any other mon is Yawn, even then its yawn is not great to have it around as it cant effect dark mons, meaning pokemon like Muk A, Mandibuzz, Greninja (who you even put in the post) just to name a few can handle your so called magnum opus.
Lastly Deoxys S makes a far better dual screens mon for Psychic, while also possibly damaging the opponent... or setting up some hazards if wanted instead.
Honestly if we had an "E" rank or a D- rank id put it there... it doesn't exactly do much but dual screens... I know you could say it has some niches, its just that its more of a surprise pick that could surprise some players... for example I have a replay where I easily beat your team with Bulky Mew with Knock off..... Honestly your just picking it in hopes it doesn't die before reflect and such...
in your match with Sungod it came down to a prediction and he made a mispredict which lost him the game... honestly with enough prediction I could make Zigzagoon look like an S rank mon
You don't seem to be arguing in good faith. You have misrepresented not only the tone of my nomination, you also seem to be ignoring the context of my statements as well as crucial explanations for points that you are putting forward as though I did not address them in the OP. I'm sure that you do have a replay where you beat me, as should many others as I have played many games with Meowstic.
I would like to take this opportunity to ask the community to evaluate my post with more objectivity and attention to the content laid out therein.
Magnezone's primary roles have been outclassed in the current meta, as Alolan Golem has better utility as a trapper, while Zeraora's holds critical prominence in the Normal matchup and also is a better check against Fairy teams, and especially Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu. Magnezone is just not on that level of prominence anymore, and should be dropped down.
yes this
I don't think it should drop any further though since it can still help with annoying things like Ferrothorn since Zeraora can't always justify running Fire Punch unless it wants to lose another coverage move.
In a similar vein I'd nominate Mega Manectric from B->C. As far as I can tell this has no sizeable usage and in my opinion Magnezone is better at beating Ferrothorn, and unlike Zeraora it has to take a (-1) attack from Scarf Bulu before hitting it with a supereffective coverage move. I don't think that the meta has progressed to a point where Manectric can keep up with other electric types.
I haven't played much recently so I have no raises of my own nor much to say about other noms.
There is no doubt in anyones mind that Rotom-Wash is an amazing pokemon on Electric. With its ability to be a ground immunity and provide defog as well as being a bulky pivot for the offensive nature of the type. However, compared to the other S-rank pokemon on electric, I don't think it holds up.
Tapu Koko's ability in Electric surge as well as its blazing speed and two solid sets makes it an irreplacable member on electric, and is arguably what makes Electric as good as it is in the meta right now. Zapdos is a great ground immunity and is a great pivot and specially defensive wall that allows electric to have ways to easily abuse its ability to pivot effectively.
The reason why Rotom-Wash doesn't compare to these two becomes clear after these explanations. Zapdos is clearly the superior pivot mon because of how it is not scared of Mold Breaker mons like Excadrill and Kyurem-black, how it has a solid form of recovery (Pain Split is not reliable), and while it is weak to rocks, it still has the defensive cababilities to make up for it. Compared to tapu koko it simply does not offer up as much utility as that Pokemon does at all and is not nearly as influential or supportive of the type. It is because of these reasons that Rotom-W, while still excellent, cannot stay as an S-rank Pokemon as the metagame continues.
Blacephelon (Fire): B -> A
Though this mon was dropped recently in the VR I have a strong argument as to why it should go back to A rank.
Compared to the current B ranks Blacephelon has a much better niche compared to them. Charizard Y is a great special wallbreaker and sun setter but lacks the speed to become a dangerous threat and can't run an item to alleviate this problem. Victini similarly is also a great wallbreaker with a choice band and can be decent with a Choice scarf, but it lacks any additional variety to take it further up the viability ranks.
Blacephelon is able to run three sets: Specs, Scarf, and Sub CM.
These sets allow Blacephelon to have good viable variety that no other mon on the type can replicate. Its scarf set allows it to act as speed control that allows it to check threats to Choice Band infernape like Choice Scarf Excadrill and potentially snowball off of one weakened Pokemon thanks to its Beast Boost. The Specs set allows it to massively dent pokemon like Gliscor that give Fire teams problems. Lastly the Sub CM set allows it to be a dangerous threat to more fat and passive balance teams, especially normal.
These sets imo give Blacephelon a good reason to be A rank, as these roles are not matched by any of the pokemon in that rank. The immediate power / Speed that Blacephelon provides Fire with a mon that works greatly with its offensive teammates.
Also I will respond to the post made by Days for Dabs
While you bring up good points there are a couple of reasons why Meowstic isn't really worth even a D rank on psychic.
Some of the biggest reasons why meowstic isn't that good on Psychic mainly stems from this mon. Role compression in monotype is very key for certain archetypes that need teamslots. In this case, offensive psychic would prefer to have something that can check dangerous physical attackers like Buzzwole or Mega-sharpedo. If you run meowstic you are limiting your options and can't use as many useful mons that you could normally use in place of it. The oppurunity cost for this trade can potentially cost you matches.
Tldr the role compression Deo-S provides is actually important and is far more helpful than being able to keep screens up for multiple turns and being able to force out certain pokemon. Which brings me to my next point.
As you point out, Dark-types completely ruin meowstic. However, these are not the only things in the metagame that stop meowstic. Almost every type has a defogger that can always get rid of Meowstic's screens and pivot out to a teammate that can take advantage of the disadvantage this puts you in. Zapdos, Crobat, Staraptor, these mons can pivot out of the situation and provide momentum and also scout out your next move. There is some special but common cases of mons that this set is dead weight against. Gliscor for example, who is relatively common on flying, ignores yawn because of Poison Heal, and also uses Defog and Knock off to further frustrate Meowstic. Bouncing off my previous point, Deoxys-S is able to stop Gliscor from Defogging, and can set up screens and proceed to go into a different pokemon. The same goes for most of the defoggers of the tier.
I'm sure I'm not the first to say this, but ladder is not the greatest way to see if a pokemon is good. This is further shown in some of the the replays that you posted yourself. In fact, a lot of your replays are not exactly helping your case at all when it comes showing how effective meowstic is. I looked at the first two replays you had posted in your dropdown and noticed that they didn't really do much justice for meowstic. I have my thoughts below:
Replay 1: While your meowstic does get to set reflect here and forces out a Latias-mega with Yawn, this could have been done just fine with Deoxys-S. Although the now freed deoxys-S is able to KO Kommo-o, this also could have been softened if your Deoxys was able to set screens after sacking latios. You also could have used taunt on Kommo-o o prevent a potential dragon dance as well and since you have Dazzling Gleam Mew you would not have to worry about revenge killing it afterwards. Also while screens mattered near the end of the fight, Alakazam could have been exactly where meowstic is teamwise, and would have been able to check and KO kyurem Black after it locked itself into Outrage to Revenge kill your Gallade, as it would have lived the dragonite Extreme Speed without screens. Overall, meowstic was not needed in this fight.
Replay 2: Meowstic could have easily been replaced by alakazam in this fight, and deoxys could have run screens. First of all, deoxys could have stopped webs at first and setup screens off of that. Secondly, Spikes didn't do anything substantial in this match as Gallade KO'd Armaldo after +2 anyway. Now to the end of the match, meowstic sets up reflect so that mew can Revenge kill. This could have been done exactly the same by alakazam and counter, since buzzwole was choice locked, making this process completely tedious for no reason. Once again, Meowstic was not needed in this fight.
If you could elaborate more of what these replays show, that would help me understand a little bit better what Meowstic can do. Now that being said I didn't get the chance to watch all of them due to irl stuff, but if the first two replays you have posted don't really do much to sell the mon your trying to nominate, it really begs the question of whether or not it even really needs to be used at all.
Meowstic is similar to mons like Klefki and Rotom-Heat in how it sets screens for offensive teams. However, there are things that the two latter mons have that meowstic does not. Klefki for example, offers more than just screens and status. It can also set Spikes or use Foul Play to check threats like Mega-Scizor reliably. It also has a Steel typing that allows it to serve as a great defensive switch in, allowing it to find more opportunities to set up screens. The same can be said for Rotom-Heat, who has levitate to be able to switch into Ground-type attacks to accomplish the same thing. Meowstic does not have either of these things, and has to run niche moves like energy ball in order to try and replicate this, and even then sometimes it doesn't work.
Having this defensive utility is so important for screeners that want to come in multiple times, as it actually allows them to have many opportunities to come in and set screens. The problem with meowstic is that it immensely drains momentum. Its inablility to come in, weakness to taunt, and the fact that most defoggers (Crobat, Zapdos, Staraptor, Mandibuzz, Tornadus, Mantine, etc.) can remove screens and hazards on it easily show that it can't really work that effectively compared to another teammate that can support the team better.
Conclusion:
It is not my intent to discourage you from trying new things, but I personally feel like meowstic simply doesn't offer up enough to be worth using over a mon like alakazam. It's lack of additional resistances and general lack of need or practical use just seems like an unsavory option on an offensive psychic team. Feel free to clarify anything I may have missed, but this is how I generally feel about Meowstic on Psychic right now.
Though this mon was dropped recently in the VR I have a strong argument as to why it should go back to A rank.
Compared to the current B ranks Blacephelon has a much better niche compared to them. Charizard Y is a great special wallbreaker and sun setter but lacks the speed to become a dangerous threat and can't run an item to alleviate this problem. Victini similarly is also a great wallbreaker with a choice band and can be decent with a Choice scarf, but it lacks any additional variety to take it further up the viability ranks.
Blacephelon is able to run three sets: Specs, Scarf, and Sub CM.
These sets allow Blacephelon to have good viable variety that no other mon on the type can replicate. Its scarf set allows it to act as speed control that allows it to check threats to Choice Band infernape like Choice Scarf Excadrill and potentially snowball off of one weakened Pokemon thanks to its Beast Boost. The Specs set allows it to massively dent pokemon like Gliscor that give Fire teams problems. Lastly the Sub CM set allows it to be a dangerous threat to more fat and passive balance teams, especially normal.
These sets imo give Blacephelon a good reason to be A rank, as these roles are not matched by any of the pokemon in that rank. The immediate power / Speed that Blacephelon provides Fire with a mon that works greatly with its offensive teammates.
Didn't have a forums acc before. I agree with this. Moreso due to the fact Blacephalon can run even more sets than listed. There's taunt-sash and even flame charge variants - possibly even Z moves. While these sets are less common and are more niche than having overall effectiveness, it just goes to show how much versatility this mon can have. With that said, it's defo better than the other mons in the B-tier. I also feel like most of Blacephalon sets are more effective against top tier threats than what Volcarona has to offer. The fact that both the Charizard-X sample team and usage rate statistics put Blacephalon over Volcarona adds to this.
There is no doubt in anyones mind that Rotom-Wash is an amazing pokemon on Electric. With its ability to be a ground immunity and provide defog as well as being a bulky pivot for the offensive nature of the type. However, compared to the other S-rank pokemon on electric, I don't think it holds up.
Tapu Koko's ability in Electric surge as well as its blazing speed and two solid sets makes it an irreplacable member on electric, and is arguably what makes Electric as good as it is in the meta right now. Zapdos is a great ground immunity and is a great pivot and specially defensive wall that allows electric to have ways to easily abuse its ability to pivot effectively.
The reason why Rotom-Wash doesn't compare to these two becomes clear after these explanations. Zapdos is clearly the superior pivot mon because of how it is not scared of Mold Breaker mons like Excadrill and Kyurem-black, how it has a solid form of recovery (Pain Split is not reliable), and while it is weak to rocks, it still has the defensive cababilities to make up for it. Compared to tapu koko it simply does not offer up as much utility as that Pokemon does at all and is not nearly as influential or supportive of the type. It is because of these reasons that Rotom-W, while still excellent, cannot stay as an S-rank Pokemon as the metagame continues.
Blacephelon (Fire): B -> A
Though this mon was dropped recently in the VR I have a strong argument as to why it should go back to A rank.
Compared to the current B ranks Blacephelon has a much better niche compared to them. Charizard Y is a great special wallbreaker and sun setter but lacks the speed to become a dangerous threat and can't run an item to alleviate this problem. Victini similarly is also a great wallbreaker with a choice band and can be decent with a Choice scarf, but it lacks any additional variety to take it further up the viability ranks.
Blacephelon is able to run three sets: Specs, Scarf, and Sub CM.
These sets allow Blacephelon to have good viable variety that no other mon on the type can replicate. Its scarf set allows it to act as speed control that allows it to check threats to Choice Band infernape like Choice Scarf Excadrill and potentially snowball off of one weakened Pokemon thanks to its Beast Boost. The Specs set allows it to massively dent pokemon like Gliscor that give Fire teams problems. Lastly the Sub CM set allows it to be a dangerous threat to more fat and passive balance teams, especially normal.
These sets imo give Blacephelon a good reason to be A rank, as these roles are not matched by any of the pokemon in that rank. The immediate power / Speed that Blacephelon provides Fire with a mon that works greatly with its offensive teammates.
Also I will respond to the post made by Days for Dabs
While you bring up good points there are a couple of reasons why Meowstic isn't really worth even a D rank on psychic.
Some of the biggest reasons why meowstic isn't that good on Psychic mainly stems from this mon. Role compression in monotype is very key for certain archetypes that need teamslots. In this case, offensive psychic would prefer to have something that can check dangerous physical attackers like Buzzwole or Mega-sharpedo. If you run meowstic you are limiting your options and can't use as many useful mons that you could normally use in place of it. The oppurunity cost for this trade can potentially cost you matches.
Tldr the role compression Deo-S provides is actually important and is far more helpful than being able to keep screens up for multiple turns and being able to force out certain pokemon. Which brings me to my next point.
As you point out, Dark-types completely ruin meowstic. However, these are not the only things in the metagame that stop meowstic. Almost every type has a defogger that can always get rid of Meowstic's screens and pivot out to a teammate that can take advantage of the disadvantage this puts you in. Zapdos, Crobat, Staraptor, these mons can pivot out of the situation and provide momentum and also scout out your next move. There is some special but common cases of mons that this set is dead weight against. Gliscor for example, who is relatively common on flying, ignores yawn because of Poison Heal, and also uses Defog and Knock off to further frustrate Meowstic. Bouncing off my previous point, Deoxys-S is able to stop Gliscor from Defogging, and can set up screens and proceed to go into a different pokemon. The same goes for most of the defoggers of the tier.
I'm sure I'm not the first to say this, but ladder is not the greatest way to see if a pokemon is good. This is further shown in some of the the replays that you posted yourself. In fact, a lot of your replays are not exactly helping your case at all when it comes showing how effective meowstic is. I looked at the first two replays you had posted in your dropdown and noticed that they didn't really do much justice for meowstic. I have my thoughts below:
Replay 1: While your meowstic does get to set reflect here and forces out a Latias-mega with Yawn, this could have been done just fine with Deoxys-S. Although the now freed deoxys-S is able to KO Kommo-o, this also could have been softened if your Deoxys was able to set screens after sacking latios. You also could have used taunt on Kommo-o o prevent a potential dragon dance as well and since you have Dazzling Gleam Mew you would not have to worry about revenge killing it afterwards. Also while screens mattered near the end of the fight, Alakazam could have been exactly where meowstic is teamwise, and would have been able to check and KO kyurem Black after it locked itself into Outrage to Revenge kill your Gallade, as it would have lived the dragonite Extreme Speed without screens. Overall, meowstic was not needed in this fight.
Replay 2: Meowstic could have easily been replaced by alakazam in this fight, and deoxys could have run screens. First of all, deoxys could have stopped webs at first and setup screens off of that. Secondly, Spikes didn't do anything substantial in this match as Gallade KO'd Armaldo after +2 anyway. Now to the end of the match, meowstic sets up reflect so that mew can Revenge kill. This could have been done exactly the same by alakazam and counter, since buzzwole was choice locked, making this process completely tedious for no reason. Once again, Meowstic was not needed in this fight.
If you could elaborate more of what these replays show, that would help me understand a little bit better what Meowstic can do. Now that being said I didn't get the chance to watch all of them due to irl stuff, but if the first two replays you have posted don't really do much to sell the mon your trying to nominate, it really begs the question of whether or not it even really needs to be used at all.
Meowstic is similar to mons like Klefki and Rotom-Heat in how it sets screens for offensive teams. However, there are things that the two latter mons have that meowstic does not. Klefki for example, offers more than just screens and status. It can also set Spikes or use Foul Play to check threats like Mega-Scizor reliably. It also has a Steel typing that allows it to serve as a great defensive switch in, allowing it to find more opportunities to set up screens. The same can be said for Rotom-Heat, who has levitate to be able to switch into Ground-type attacks to accomplish the same thing. Meowstic does not have either of these things, and has to run niche moves like energy ball in order to try and replicate this, and even then sometimes it doesn't work.
Having this defensive utility is so important for screeners that want to come in multiple times, as it actually allows them to have many opportunities to come in and set screens. The problem with meowstic is that it immensely drains momentum. Its inablility to come in, weakness to taunt, and the fact that most defoggers (Crobat, Zapdos, Staraptor, Mandibuzz, Tornadus, Mantine, etc.) can remove screens and hazards on it easily show that it can't really work that effectively compared to another teammate that can support the team better.
Conclusion:
It is not my intent to discourage you from trying new things, but I personally feel like meowstic simply doesn't offer up enough to be worth using over a mon like alakazam. It's lack of additional resistances and general lack of need or practical use just seems like an unsavory option on an offensive psychic team. Feel free to clarify anything I may have missed, but this is how I generally feel about Meowstic on Psychic right now.
I'd like to point out something that I keep seeing regarding lower rank nominations, ones where its not so cut and dry as to weather the pokemon in question is "worthy" of a ranking: Being outclassed seems to almost always be the reasoning behind denying a ranking to lower viability pokemon, but that would kinda be the point wouldnt it? That is why it is being labeled as a D rank pokemon, and not higher. Obviously Deoxys speed outclasses meowstic in just about every conceivable way, so why would you use it? Well if you are trying to be as competitive as humanly possible, yeah you dont bring meowstic, you bring deoxys. But if you want to try a similar idea on an arguably worse pokemon, you try something like meowstic.
This being said, I agree with the analysis of why deoxys speed is better than meowstic, but not the reasoning of why it isnt D rank worthy. Is it usable on psychic viably? Yes, as Days for Dabs has shown and gotten to rank 1 on ladder with said meowstic. Is it as reliable and viable as deoxys speed? No. That in its essence should be what a D rank pokemon is.
Also there is one thing I personally see value of in meowstic that I dont think deoxys speed can accomplish as easily, and that is lategame screens. Meowstic has enough durability to set up screens, retreat and be able to come back in later to set them again. Deoxys compresses so many roles (SR, Screens etc.) that it does everything it needs to then drops. Once its screens go down and its rocks are fogged, thats it. Its a one time thing. Meowstic at least has some leisure to come back into the lategame and get a crucial screen (or screens) up that can allow a chipped or weakened pokemon on the team to come back in and clean up where as without the screen(s) it normally couldnt. Especially with common pokemon like mew, victini and jirachi that all sport great 100 bulk across all of their defensive stats those screens become even more potent.
TL;DR: I think Meowstic does qualify for what a D rank pokemon is, an outclassed, outperformed pokemon that can do similar if less effective jobs and still maintain a viable role within a team/type or also with a certain niche. Comparing S tier pokemon to unranked and using it as an ideology for never allowing pokemon onto the list simply because they are outclassed by something already on the list seems like not only demoting the use of "weaker" pokemon within the tier but trying out different ideas entirely.
I'd like to point out something that I keep seeing regarding lower rank nominations, ones where its not so cut and dry as to weather the pokemon in question is "worthy" of a ranking: Being outclassed seems to almost always be the reasoning behind denying a ranking to lower viability pokemon, but that would kinda be the point wouldnt it? That is why it is being labeled as a D rank pokemon, and not higher. Obviously Deoxys speed outclasses meowstic in just about every conceivable way, so why would you use it? Well if you are trying to be as competitive as humanly possible, yeah you dont bring meowstic, you bring deoxys. But if you want to try a similar idea on an arguably worse pokemon, you try something like meowstic.
This being said, I agree with the analysis of why deoxys speed is better than meowstic, but not the reasoning of why it isnt D rank worthy. Is it usable on psychic viably? Yes, as Days for Dabs has shown and gotten to rank 1 on ladder with said meowstic. Is it as reliable and viable as deoxys speed? No. That in its essence should be what a D rank pokemon is.
Also there is one thing I personally see value of in meowstic that I dont think deoxys speed can accomplish as easily, and that is lategame screens. Meowstic has enough durability to set up screens, retreat and be able to come back in later to set them again. Deoxys compresses so many roles (SR, Screens etc.) that it does everything it needs to then drops. Once its screens go down and its rocks are fogged, thats it. Its a one time thing. Meowstic at least has some leisure to come back into the lategame and get a crucial screen (or screens) up that can allow a chipped or weakened pokemon on the team to come back in and clean up where as without the screen(s) it normally couldnt. Especially with common pokemon like mew, victini and jirachi that all sport great 100 bulk across all of their defensive stats those screens become even more potent.
TL;DR: I think Meowstic does qualify for what a D rank pokemon is, an outclassed, outperformed pokemon that can do similar if less effective jobs and still maintain a viable role within a team/type or also with a certain niche. Comparing S tier pokemon to unranked and using it as an ideology for never allowing pokemon onto the list simply because they are outclassed by something already on the list seems like not only demoting the use of "weaker" pokemon within the tier but trying out different ideas entirely.
There are numerous Pokémon that are not ranked, 100% because they are outclassed. The point of viability rankings is not to compare every Pokémon a type has. Simply becuase a mon can do a job on a team, does not make it worthy of a ranking.
Example:
“Mega Absol can be a potential sweeper on dark, and has access to magic bounce. It can prevent entry hazards from wearing the team down. It can also check Mega Sableye with play rough and swords dance”
This is a job that mega absol can do. It is very capable of doing all those jobs.
However, it is unranked due to the fact that it is outclassed by Mega Sableye and mega Tyranitar for the mega slot. If a new player is building a team, they should not consider putting it on their team. Putting it in the viability rankings means that you may consider it when team building.
Meowstic generally should not be considered when team building, due to the fact that it is outclassed by numerous staples to its type.
There are numerous Pokémon that are not ranked, 100% because they are outclassed. The point of viability rankings is not to compare every Pokémon a type has. Simply becuase a mon can do a job on a team, does not make it worthy of a ranking.
Example:
“Mega Absol can be a potential sweeper on dark, and has access to magic bounce. It can prevent entry hazards from wearing the team down. It can also check Mega Sableye with play rough and swords dance”
This is a job that mega absol can do. It is very capable of doing all those jobs.
However, it is unranked due to the fact that it is outclassed by Mega Sableye and mega Tyranitar for the mega slot. If a new player is building a team, they should not consider putting it on their team. Putting it in the viability rankings means that you may consider it when team building.
Meowstic generally should not be considered when team building, due to the fact that it is outclassed by numerous staples to its type.
unless my reading comprehension has somehow gone out the window, I dont think either Dabs or A Certain Guy are arguing why you should use Meowstic over Deoxys-S. I dont understand how that is being misinterpreted. The OP argues for meowstic to be D rank, which i think is fair personally but that's beside the point. The argument is meowstic can provide further assistance towards deoxys et all. Especially in the sense that it greatly frees up deoxys to do other things, and is worthy of a D-ranking, certainly over the likes of regular gallade etc. Days for Dabs even reinforces why deoxys is the superior mon if you're going to go with one or the other. And i believe i read a post that says well just use Alakazam. While Alakazam is a great mon in its own right, it's counter set is still it's best set, and that can always be played around like anything else. I don't think Dabs is asking for the moon, only that Meowstic be D-ranked based on what I think is a good analysis that he provided. Meowstic's usage also IMO attests the fact that it can indeed be viable. And no one has said "use meowstic over deoxys-S".
There are issues with claiming that ladder success and usage are justifiable reasons to rank something. Plenty of wack teams have made it to the top of ladder or close, and the usage in this case can be weighted, as it is in this case.
This is for Psychic 1760. The moves and spreads shown are the same seen on the team Days for Dabs used in the posted replays. Days for Dabs has played over 8000 games on ladder. The usage stats do not reflect how much Meowstic is used on ladder but rather how often Days for Dabs plays, especially when incredibly niche sets (Psycho Cut Gallade, Toxic Victini, Dazzling Gleam Mew) are the most used, and the six mons on the team are the top six in usage. Tournament usage is valuable, but Meowstic is absent there, and balance psychic is more present.
Edit: To respond to Eien, I am not saying that ladder play is important, as it is, but that when usage is limited to a handful of people on ladder and the statistics are skewed then it's not as vaulable.
Re: Rotom Wash
I disagree with a drop. The only case with Mold Breaker where Zapdos is better off is Excadrill, since KyuB carries Ice Beam anyway. Rotom is better at threatening Ground types as well, as the best Zapdos can do is Toxic them whereas Rotom has Hydro Pump and Will-o-wisp. This helps with with Ground-types like Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Diggersby that can use Zapdos as setup fodder, and Defog variants beat rockers like Armaldo, Hippowdon, and Nidoking more easily. I also wouldn't say that it competes with Zapdos as a pivot, since Zapdos doesn't always run Volt Switch.
I appreciate everyone debating Meowstic's viability civilly. Even if I do not intend to rank Meowstic, and I doubt Vid has any intentions to either, I think it was a good discussion to have and is perhaps even beneficial for more clearly explaining the purpose of the viability rankings. That being said, Meowstic is not going to be ranked.
To illustrate the problem, consider how teambuilding in Monotype works. If it is even D rank, that implies it has a legitimate reason to be used over Pokemon that are unranked and an equal niche to those that are already D rank. While you can complain that comparing an S rank to a (potential) D rank is unfair, the problem is when the D rank is the wrong teambuilding decision 100% of the time due to the S rank. Fulfilling roles to enable other Pokemon to take on different sets is a very real niche in some cases. However, it has to be worth doing. Using a terrible Pokemon to enable a Pokemon that is not going to use a drastically more valuable set is not worth doing.
Essentially every dual screen-using HO Psychic team (not implying every HO Psychic uses dual screens) is going to fill at least these four Pokemon slots:
1. Dual Screen user - Obvious
2. Victini - Prevents Bug and Steel from 6-0ing
3. Latias / Latios - Defog to beat Sticky Web while providing a rare ability to switch into attacks with their great defensive typing and ability
4. Mega Evolution - Often Mega Gallade for its fantastic wallbreaking power but really any of them fit here
From here, we have to consider what our last two teamslots will do. Our team must have Stealth Rock, of course. If our dual screen user is Meowstic and not Deoxys-S, that means one of our last two slots must be a Stealth Rock user. That leaves us with only one slot left. On a team that almost always has the same foundation leaving only two open flex slots, it requires that either your other sets be suboptimal to try to fill additional roles or you risk your team being overly weak to multiple metagame threats because you've limited yourself down from two open slots to one. This is all to make it possible to use a gimmick on your team.
I'm happy you were able to find success on the ladder; however, the viability rankings exist as a resource for players (particularly new ones) to use when building teams. To imply Meowstic is even D rank means we believe there is at least one team that Meowstic fits on well and one niche that it fills. Both are false. For someone that has been playing thousands of Monotype games, it is absolutely possible to win with Meowstic, and I have no doubt you are doing well. I personally have used niche Pokemon such as Wormadam-Sandy, Vikavolt, Komala, Gligar, and Floatzel in tournament matches and won games. That's because I know exactly why I'm putting those Pokemon on my team and have enough experience with this format to do it and succeed. That isn't what the viability rankings are for, though. Viability rankings are skill agnostic, so my ability to use Komala says nothing about the ability for the average Monotype player's ability to. We want to document what Pokemon are most viable in the metagame and rank them in order of what is best relative to each other. Pokemon that are relatively not as viable are not ranked, and Meowstic simply does not fit the bill.
As a side note, ladder is important. It is perfectly fine to refer to ladder play to defend a nomination. However, tournament play matters as well. If your Pokemon has literally no tournament usage, where niche Pokemon become actually more viable, then that says a lot about your nomination.
I wanted to address some of the current discussion points brought up by some other users in this thread:
I believe that Gyarados should drop because of all the reasons wanka listed. It’s an excellent Pokemon and win condition on paper but in practice it can be hard to set up and actually get it sweeping which is why I could see it dropping below the A ranks to B.
Araquanid shouldn't go to S on Bug. The defensive typing along with the ability to lay down Sticky Webs are great, but it's definitely not at all comparable to Armaldo and Volcarona, Armaldo being Bug's primary form of hazard control automatically makes it once of the most crucial Pokemon on the type, while Volcarona's great offensive presence as an effective setup sweeper makes it one of the most valued Pokemon on Bug teams. Araquanids good, but its definitely more comparable to the A ranks rather than what both of the S ranked Pokemon each individually do for the type. I think Bug teams without Araquanid also function fine too.
Blacephalon should rise to A, it's a good special attacker on Fire teams with good Ghost STAB and multiple good sets, although I'll admit missing the speed tie with base 108 pokemon such as Infernape, Terrakion and Keldeo kinda sucks at times. Also forms a nice offensive core with Infernape as its also a viable Choice Scarf user that can free up Infernape to run Choice Band if needed be as it can also revenge kill Choice Scarf Nihilego.
Rotom Wash should definitely stay ranked S on Electric. I don't really see the "Tapu Koko being the single best Pokemon on the type" being a viable argument for Rotom Wash to drop especially since Tapu Koko's been holding that title ever since SM came out, and its been carrying Electric as a type throughout this whole generation. Nothing on Electric is really comparable to Tapu Koko, including Zapdos. The next best thing next to Tapu Koko is Electric's valuable defensive core which supports the entire type whether it be burning and crippling opposing Pokemon, pivoting out into offensive threats using Volt Switch, soaking up hits, or providing Defog support for the rest of the team. In my eyes, Rotom Wash and Zapdos are both valuable members of Electric's backbone that both have different attributes which make them good partners for one another and should both stay at S. Zapdos provides a nice Grass resist that can be used to check a huge threat to Electric teams, Tapu Bulu, while boasting good reliable recovery and bulk while Rotom Wash, being part Water type, provides key resistances in Fire, Water, and Ice, and is therefore able to switch into Pokemon such as Greninja, (non Toxic) Heatran, Victini, and check Belly Drum Azumarill that can surprisingly pose a threat to Electric-type teams if given the right opportunity to set up, while it can also threaten said Ground type Pokemon with Hydro Pump and cripple other physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp. Sure the lack of reliable recovery sucks, but it still has Pain Split and pinch berries to make up for it. All in all, Rotom Wash and Zapdos are both great defensive Electric-type Pokemon with different attributes that make up Electric's defensive backbone, and should both stay at S along with Tapu Koko.
I'm unsure on whether Magnezone should drop or not, but if it does end up dropping I think Mega Manectric could definitely go down to C since its niche is definitely smaller than Thundurus and Magnezone’s.
magnezone isn’t really comparable to the other A tier mons in electric now. With the introduction of zerazoa, it’s niche against steel types is overshadowed by zerazoa’s ability as a physical attacker. Zerazoa is crucial to the Normal type matchup, as well as a fast physical attacker. Magnezone should not be used over alolan golem, as it is a stealth rock setter, and can also be used as a trapper.
New players should not consider using it over the other A tier mons on a standard electric team
Magnezone: A—-> B (Electric) View attachment 149370
magnezone isn’t really comparable to the other A tier mons in electric now. With the introduction of zerazoa, it’s niche against steel types is overshadowed by zerazoa’s ability as a physical attacker. Zerazoa is crucial to the Normal type matchup, as well as a fast physical attacker. Magnezone should not be used over alolan golem, as it is a stealth rock setter, and can also be used as a trapper.
New players should not consider using it over the other A tier mons on a standard electric team
analytic + specs and potential electric terrain has like no switch ins, even chansey drops after some chip
anyway, magnezone's typing (ill get into this later) and power is just too important against poison, ghost, dark, and fairy to be dropped to b rank. its ability to power through roadblocks like venusaur and other defensive behemoths that electric struggles with is amazing. plus (arguably) the best type, fairy, has quite literally no switch in to it, which is always great. magnezone's typing and fair bulk is also really important for patching up the subpar defensive core that struggles with dragon-types like latios and rock-types like nihilego. the ability to switch into them while simultaneously threatening the shit out of anything that could possibly come in is, like, good, its worth a rank. also gives electric a switch in to mega venusaur lacking eq (zap is put down by psn) and provides a much needed toxic immunity
also normal has been falling out of relevance since like forever and how can you compare magnezone's slot on electric (or role) to zeroara or golem? magnezone excels at a completely different role.
So this post is basically about Offensive rain, being Crawdaunt is able to pull its weight and being an insane wallbreaker especially under Rain and Pelipper enabling the playstyle!
Crawdaunt (Water)- Unranked to C
Crawdaunt @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation / Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Crunch
- Aqua Jet
Crawdaunt has been really downplayed this generation. For some reason, it remains unranked on the VR but is a fantastic wallbreaker that is quite difficult to deal with in the rain, as barely anything switches into a Banded Liquidation in the rain. It has the ability to 2HKO tons of defensive behemoths and large threats to the Water-type such as Mega Venusaur with Crunch. While rain can no longer be successfully used as a Hyper Offensive team it is a fantastic Bulky Offense playstyle, supported by Pokemon such as Toxapex, which brings Toxic Spikes support and access to a defensive pivot. This is a huge help to Crawdaunt as the Toxic Spikes support Toxapex provides only increases the difficulty of dealing with this Pokemon. It also is an excellent late-game cleaner and revenge killer with Aqua Jet, being easily clean past weakened teams making it a threat all game long. I believe Crawdaunt has been sorely neglected and easily fits within the C-ranking for Water as it easily fills as many niches as Pokemon like Jellicent, which provide a Fighting immunity and can somewhat take on other walls with Taunt, while Kingdra is easily falling off not even very great in rain, and Mega Gyarados which finds its niche as a bulky sweeper version of Mega Sharpedo, all of these are also the better and more viable of the C-ranked Pokemon.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 170-202 (46.7 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Celesteela in Rain: 291-343 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 384-456 (123.4 - 146.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Mandibuzz in Rain: 294-346 (69.5 - 81.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola in Rain: 352-416 (134.8 - 159.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Rain: 236-278 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega in Rain: 288-339 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 252-300 (102.8 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade-Mega in Rain: 214-252 (77.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos in Rain: 236-278 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It even does significant damage to foes that resist its Water STAB: 252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 143-168 (40.6 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios in Rain: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With rain being viable and this being the main reason it can be run effectively I believe Pelipper should be ranked higher in viability. This is honestly just because it is the core support for even BO rain teams, the reason Crawdaunt can just click its Water STAB in rain, dropping bodies, act as a role compressor with Defog, and is and always will be still a staple pick in Rain teams. It does what it always has done and provided a pivot and Flying-type STAB to help deal with threats such as Tapu Bulu and Mega Venusaur for rain teams. Choice Specs Pelipper is also a decent hazard remover for these teams, as no other Pokemon really has space for it on Rain teams or just simply don't fit on the playstyle making Pelipper an invaluable role compressor for the archetype. Choice Scarf Pelipper can also check threats like Kommo-o and Breloom for the team, while also being able to ease up the Bug-type matchup against Galvantula. Leftovers is a rubbish set, offensive Pelipper only. If Crawdaunt rises to C this should rise to B, I believe rain has some merit in the current metagame and Pelipper being the best enabler of the archetype fully deserves a B rank.
Ever since haze started popping up everywhere, Azu has been having a hard time belly drumming. First it was toxapex, but if you played around it, it wasnt too bad. But ever since mantine started running haze its been pretty bad for BD azu. Now the only way to make this mon put in work is to use jolly w/ return which lets it outspeed mantine and mega venu most times. Which is pretty sad as it fails to land some significant KOs while jolly. Anyways, nowhere near S atm.
Chandelure, whilst frail packs one hell of a punch. You can safely swap it into any fire move, and Shadow Ball coming off of a 145 base SpAtk (Higher than Gengars) is insane to hit most things for neutral damage. I don't know that much about the whole metagame, but I can say that when I've been playing, it's a hard check to most Volcaronas and Bug/Grass teams in general. Again, I'm not sure How good it is in comparison, I just feel it should come off of Unranked. I have fond memories of sweeping through teams with this thing and with the correct predictions, it can be great. My set is as follows:
Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
Again, I won't pretend to know a lot, but I feel this fire lantern should get some love.
Edit: Just remembered Alolan Maroark exists. Nevermind.
Chandelure, whilst frail packs one hell of a punch. You can safely swap it into any fire move, and Shadow Ball coming off of a 145 base SpAtk (Higher than Gengars) is insane to hit most things for neutral damage. I don't know that much about the whole metagame, but I can say that when I've been playing, it's a hard check to most Volcaronas and Bug/Grass teams in general. Again, I'm not sure How good it is in comparison, I just feel it should come off of Unranked. I have fond memories of sweeping through teams with this thing and with the correct predictions, it can be great. My set is as follows:
Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
Again, I won't pretend to know a lot, but I feel this fire lantern should get some love.
Chandelure wasn't really great on Ghost before USM dropped. Now with Blacephalon out, there isn't really much reason to use Chandelure. Apart from Energy Ball, Blacephalon is basically a better special Fire / Ghost because of its improved offensive stats, and can even run a Substitute + Calm Mind set on Ghost like the one you just provided. Chandelure isn't a check to Volcarona at all either, as most of them usually run Hidden Power Ground or Z-Psychic, both of which can take out Chandelure when boosted while Chandelure can't do much back. Therefore, Chandelure should stay unranked on Ghost because it finds itself outclassed by Blacephalon and therefore not worth using.
Chandelure wasn't really great on Ghost before USM dropped. Now with Blacephalon out, there isn't really much reason to use Chandelure. Apart from Energy Ball, Blacephalon is basically a better special Fire / Ghost because of its improved offensive stats, and can even run a Substitute + Calm Mind set on Ghost like the one you just provided. Chandelure isn't a check to Volcarona at all either, as most of them usually run Hidden Power Ground or Z-Psychic, both of which can take out Chandelure when boosted while Chandelure can't do much back. Therefore, Chandelure should stay unranked on Ghost because it finds itself outclassed by Blacephalon and therefore not worth using.
Okay so, I'm back, and with another thing for Ghost.
This time, Mega Banette.
Now I know what you're gonna say, there's no point running any mega other than Sableye in Ghost, and on one level I can see where you're coming from however, Banette has a good niche in my opinion.
Before mega evolving, Banette gets Frisk, allowing you to scout your opponent's set, see if they're locked in and perhaps going to switch. Then, once mega, Banette gets Prankster. This is what non mega sableye has and sableye has keep itself alive as it's somewhat frail without evolving, and then it loses it's prankster.
Banette has decent bulk, and can swap into quite a few things. It's prankster allows tricksey plays and my highlight of the set, it gets prankster D Bond.
Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm/Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Destiny Bond
- Hex/Shadow Claw
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
That's my moveset, and Hex is there because of the Will o Wisp, but can swapped for Shadow Claw. I don't reccomend Shadow Sneak because against faster pokemon, if you miss a D Bond, you move after your opponent with the Hex/Shadow Claw and thus you essentially have 2 turns of Destiny Bond up. It can help with mis reads and over confident opponents.
Having Prankster D bond means that it can act as death to any type of set up sweeper, because Prankster will outspeed everything (Unless they're using priority as well) This allows you to remove threats and swap into another mon (Like Blacepheon or Gengar) without having to swap into a move.
Obviously, I understand that Mega Sableye is a great pokemon, but I feel Banette has it's own niche.
Okay so, I'm back, and with another thing for Ghost.
This time, Mega Banette.
Now I know what you're gonna say, there's no point running any mega other than Sableye in Ghost, and on one level I can see where you're coming from however, Banette has a good niche in my opinion.
Before mega evolving, Banette gets Frisk, allowing you to scout your opponent's set, see if they're locked in and perhaps going to switch. Then, once mega, Banette gets Prankster. This is what non mega sableye has and sableye has keep itself alive as it's somewhat frail without evolving, and then it loses it's prankster.
Banette has decent bulk, and can swap into quite a few things. It's prankster allows tricksey plays and my highlight of the set, it gets prankster D Bond.
Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm/Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Destiny Bond
- Hex/Shadow Claw
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
That's my moveset, and Hex is there because of the Will o Wisp, but can swapped for Shadow Claw. I don't reccomend Shadow Sneak because against faster pokemon, if you miss a D Bond, you move after your opponent with the Hex/Shadow Claw and thus you essentially have 2 turns of Destiny Bond up. It can help with mis reads and over confident opponents.
Having Prankster D bond means that it can act as death to any type of set up sweeper, because Prankster will outspeed everything (Unless they're using priority as well) This allows you to remove threats and swap into another mon (Like Blacepheon or Gengar) without having to swap into a move.
Obviously, I understand that Mega Sableye is a great pokemon, but I feel Banette has it's own niche.
So there are two reasons why I think M-Banette should not be ranked: the opportunity cost, and that Prankster Destiny Bond just isn’t that good.
M-Sableye is arguably Ghost’s best Pokemon (and is at least its second best) due to its fantastic defensive presence, checking of Ghost’s two weaknesses, and a great ability in Magic Bounce. Running any other Mega means you lose ALL of these aforementioned characteristics. Not only does this leave your best Dark-type check to Mimikyu, but it also drastically lowers the ability of your team to handle powerful offensive threats. Furthermore, M-Banette doesn’t even check Dark-types, and is designed to only KO one mon. Sableye already has Prankster Will-O-Wisp, but you usually will not need it the entire game because M-Sableye’s defensive presence is that good.
So, Prankster Destiny Bond. Whereas M-Sableye can check a multitude of offensive threats, this set is designed to only deal with one, which not only wastes a Mega slot but also just wastes a slot in general. If you really wanted to deal with set-up sweepers, you could just use Red Card Mimikyu and not only preserve your Mega slot but also have one less fainted mon. And the worst part about this set is that Prankster Destiny Bond will fail against any Dark-type Pokemon, meaning you cannot even KO the biggest threats to Ghost. I’m not even sure the set you posted is good on M-Banette, especially when it just gets walled by any Normal or Dark type, but then again M-Banette just is not good in general.
All in all, M-Banette is just not worth using at all when compared to M-Sableye, and to suggest that there is at least one team where you would rather use Banette that Sableye would be false, in my opinion.
It is true that Mega Gardevoir has been an underwhelming mega evolution ever since it was introduced compared to it's presence in ORAS because of various reasons, including the Pixilate nerf and the introduction of Alolan Muk which prevented it from blowing past Dark teams purely by clicking Hyper Voice. Although this is definitely the case, despite Alolan Muk being out it still has a niche in handling Dark by burning Alolan Muk with Will-o-wisp on the switch and threaten the entire team with Hyper Voice. Since Alolan Muk isn't carrying Pursuit much anymore on Dark in favor of Curse + Recycle, Mega Gardevoir can take advantage of this as it no longer needs to worry about getting poisoned and crippled by Pursuit and can try to burn it on the switch, and switch back out, while Alolan Muk has to keep on using Recycle to keep itself healthy. Even if its not vs Dark, Mega Gardevoir can still burn things and be annoying with its decently strong STAB attacks and Focus Blast, along with utility in Taunt and Will-O-Wisp and do a decent amount of damage. Despite being a more niche wallbreaker with its obvious flaws, I think it should go to C, especially with Dark having decent~goodish usage in tournaments right now. Pair it up with something like Choice Band Victini and you've got a wallbreaking core that can do decently well vs Dark and other types.
Mega Heracross (Fighting) C --> D
Theres just not really much reason to use Mega Heracross on Fighting in comparison to Bug. The opportunity cost of not being able to use one of the type's best Pokemon in Mega Gallade is already extremely detrimental to the success of Mega Heracross. Fighting already has plenty of wallbreakers and Mega Heracross just can't really find a niche good enough to compensate for the opportunity cost of Mega Gallade and Choice Scarf Heracross, while as a wallbreaker being slow is just no good, especially on a type without Sticky Web support. The other C ranks, Hawlucha and Lucario, both have decent niches on the type, and Mega Heracross should probably just drop to D since it probably can't compare to the former two.
Pelipper (Water) C --> B
I'm going to echo this nomination. Rain's pretty good right now as an offensive playstyle, and with that Pelipper should rise. It fuels the entire archetype by autosetting Rain, and its can fill roles such as a Defogger or / and a wallbreaker with Choice Specs that applies good pressure onto types such as Poison as well as Grass-type Pokemon while bringing other Pokemon safety in with U-Turn. This allows it to be effective even while acting as a Rain setter so that its not just a one trick pony. Pelipper's ranking should reflect Rain's current state in the metagame, and Rain is good. With that, Pelipper should also be ranked higher.
