Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Mid-November usage stats are here! Credit to Kalalokki for the great visual below:
Code:
Combined usage for OU (1695 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1    | Zygarde            | 24.764% |
| 2    | Clefable           | 21.344% |
| 3    | Landorus-Therian   | 21.289% |
| 4    | Magearna           | 20.554% |
| 5    | Heatran            | 20.003% |
| 6    | Kyurem-Black       | 18.993% |
| 7    | Urshifu            | 18.251% |
| 8    | Spectrier          | 18.097% |
| 9    | Melmetal           | 18.093% |
| 10   | Toxapex            | 17.735% |
| 11   | Pheromosa          | 17.189% |
| 12   | Ferrothorn         | 16.571% |
| 13   | Zapdos             | 14.633% |
| 14   | Swampert           | 12.018% |
| 15   | Tapu Fini          | 11.726% |
| 16   | Buzzwole           | 11.234% |
| 17   | Cinderace          | 10.770% |
| 18   | Mandibuzz          | 10.479% |
| 19   | Pelipper           | 10.377% |
| 20   | Regieleki          | 10.284% |
| 21   | Rillaboom          |  9.415% |
| 22   | Excadrill          |  9.368% |
| 23   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike |  8.984% |
| 24   | Garchomp           |  8.464% |
| 25   | Latios             |  8.346% |
| 26   | Tyranitar          |  8.279% |
| 27   | Blissey            |  7.734% |
| 28   | Slowbro            |  7.667% |
| 29   | Dragapult          |  7.492% |
| 30   | Moltres            |  7.403% |
| 31   | Tapu Koko          |  7.400% |
| 32   | Zapdos-Galar       |  7.132% |
| 33   | Tornadus-Therian   |  7.012% |
| 34   | Kartana            |  6.358% |
| 35   | Landorus           |  6.135% |
| 36   | Corviknight        |  5.682% |
| 37   | Barraskewda        |  5.481% |
| 38   | Blaziken           |  5.149% |
| 39   | Dragonite          |  4.727% |
| 40   | Nidoking           |  4.615% |
| 41   | Tapu Lele          |  4.317% |
| 42   | Hippowdon          |  3.373% |
| 43   | Slowking           |  3.230% |
| 44   | Ditto              |  3.222% |
| 45   | Celesteela         |  2.922% |
| 46   | Aegislash          |  2.870% |
| 47   | Scizor             |  2.766% |
| 48   | Zarude             |  2.684% |
| 49   | Shuckle            |  2.654% |
| 50   | Hatterene          |  2.578% |
| 51   | Thundurus-Therian  |  2.557% |
| 52   | Porygon2           |  2.500% |
| 53   | Kingdra            |  2.487% |
| 54   | Marowak-Alola      |  2.436% |
| 55   | Dracozolt          |  2.294% |
| 56   | Hawlucha           |  2.216% |
| 57   | Hydreigon          |  2.155% |
| 58   | Grimmsnarl         |  2.129% |
| 59   | Latias             |  2.122% |
| 60   | Crawdaunt          |  2.076% |
| 61   | Magnezone          |  1.967% |
| 62   | Cresselia          |  1.950% |
| 63   | Seismitoad         |  1.947% |
| 64   | Chansey            |  1.927% |
| 65   | Mamoswine          |  1.811% |
| 66   | Azumarill          |  1.808% |
| 67   | Glastrier          |  1.805% |
| 68   | Skarmory           |  1.792% |
| 69   | Mew                |  1.767% |
| 70   | Tangrowth          |  1.732% |
| 71   | Klefki             |  1.724% |
| 72   | Ninetales-Alola    |  1.710% |
| 73   | Tapu Bulu          |  1.705% |
| 74   | Suicune            |  1.562% |
| 75   | Victini            |  1.512% |
| 76   | Blacephalon        |  1.491% |
| 77   | Regidrago          |  1.482% |
| 78   | Quagsire           |  1.448% |
| 79   | Moltres-Galar      |  1.411% |
| 80   | Slowking-Galar     |  1.361% |
| 81   | Nihilego           |  1.315% |
| 82   | Amoonguss          |  1.312% |
| 83   | Volcarona          |  1.160% |
| 84   | Zeraora            |  1.149% |
| 85   | Arctozolt          |  1.131% |
| 86   | Bisharp            |  1.106% |
| 87   | Ribombee           |  1.076% |
| 88   | Kommo-o            |  1.072% |
| 89   | Volcanion          |  1.061% |
| 90   | Torkoal            |  1.030% |
| 91   | Jirachi            |  0.985% |
| 92   | Diggersby          |  0.975% |
| 93   | Salamence          |  0.961% |
| 94   | Venusaur           |  0.851% |
| 95   | Rotom-Wash         |  0.824% |
| 96   | Togekiss           |  0.787% |
| 97   | Zoroark            |  0.759% |
| 98   | Kyurem             |  0.758% |
| 99   | Stakataka          |  0.744% |
| 100  | Shedinja           |  0.731% |
| 101  | Rotom-Heat         |  0.728% |
| 102  | Metagross          |  0.661% |
| 103  | Gengar             |  0.631% |
| 104  | Nidoqueen          |  0.620% |
| 105  | Keldeo             |  0.589% |
| 106  | Incineroar         |  0.516% |
| 107  | Obstagoon          |  0.513% |
| 108  | Mimikyu            |  0.491% |
| 109  | Primarina          |  0.484% |
| 110  | Cloyster           |  0.483% |
| 111  | Weezing-Galar      |  0.455% |
| 112  | Gastrodon          |  0.452% |
| 113  | Araquanid          |  0.445% |
| 114  | Abomasnow          |  0.441% |
| 115  | Umbreon            |  0.428% |
| 116  | Azelf              |  0.421% |
| 117  | Omastar            |  0.409% |
| 118  | Weavile            |  0.386% |
| 119  | Krookodile         |  0.382% |
| 120  | Alakazam           |  0.380% |
| 121  | Articuno-Galar     |  0.375% |
| 122  | Rhyperior          |  0.370% |
| 123  | Conkeldurr         |  0.351% |
| 124  | Whimsicott         |  0.324% |
| 125  | Uxie               |  0.316% |
| 126  | Reuniclus          |  0.309% |
| 127  | Regigigas          |  0.304% |
| 128  | Avalugg            |  0.292% |
| 129  | Starmie            |  0.291% |
| 130  | Entei              |  0.291% |
| 131  | Toxtricity         |  0.279% |
| 132  | Thundurus          |  0.265% |
| 133  | Druddigon          |  0.261% |
| 134  | Mantine            |  0.232% |
| 135  | Raikou             |  0.210% |
| 136  | Porygon-Z          |  0.208% |
| 137  | Arctovish          |  0.202% |
| 138  | Lycanroc-Dusk      |  0.199% |
| 139  | Terrakion          |  0.178% |
| 140  | Xatu               |  0.178% |
| 141  | Aerodactyl         |  0.175% |
| 142  | Charizard          |  0.170% |
| 143  | Tornadus           |  0.169% |
| 144  | Pyukumuku          |  0.167% |
| 145  | Gyarados           |  0.162% |
| 146  | Vaporeon           |  0.158% |
| 147  | Indeedee           |  0.156% |
| 148  | Diancie            |  0.154% |
| 149  | Milotic            |  0.154% |
| 150  | Gigalith           |  0.154% |
| 151  | Chandelure         |  0.151% |
| 152  | Poliwrath          |  0.150% |
| 153  | Registeel          |  0.145% |
| 154  | Salazzle           |  0.143% |
| 155  | Slowbro-Galar      |  0.139% |
| 156  | Aurorus            |  0.138% |
| 157  | Kabutops           |  0.137% |
| 158  | Polteageist        |  0.135% |
| 159  | Articuno           |  0.134% |
| 160  | Necrozma           |  0.134% |
| 161  | Slurpuff           |  0.132% |
| 162  | Runerigus          |  0.128% |
| 163  | Flygon             |  0.125% |
| 164  | Tentacruel         |  0.117% |
| 165  | Cobalion           |  0.115% |
| 166  | Tyrantrum          |  0.115% |
| 167  | Darmanitan         |  0.114% |
| 168  | Golurk             |  0.112% |
| 169  | Haxorus            |  0.109% |
| 170  | Froslass           |  0.103% |
| 171  | Golisopod          |  0.103% |
| 172  | Meowstic           |  0.102% |
| 173  | Raichu-Alola       |  0.101% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
Changes to the Top 10:

#14 (12.207%) > #2 (21.34%)
After a slow start, Clefable is back to being at the top of OU's usage stats. It's a solid defensive mon that can switch into top threats like Zygarde, Pheromosa and Urshifu-S. Physically defensive Clefable is as reliable as ever, and it's a great Stealth Rock user that can support teams with Knock Off or Teleport + Wish.

#17
(11.254%) > #9 (18.093%)
Melmetal on the other hand might have had a slow start due to being overshadowed by the new DLC2 released mons, but it has finally gained more usage and broken into the top 10. It is a very strong physical tank that has been met with some new counterplay compared to DLC1, most notably in formes of Zapdos, Moltres, and Buzzwole. Melmetal often uses Choice Band or 3 attacks + Protect, with those attacking moves usually including Double Iron Bash, Earthquake, Ice Punch, and Superpower. It also has a ton of bulk, which makes it difficult for it to be 1HKO'd. This immense bulk along with Steel-typing lets Melmetal act as one of the best answers to Kyurem-Black.

Other notable increases in usage:

#19 (9.673%) > #12 (16.571%)
Ferrothorn has always been a reliable mon and with Melmetal and Magearna seeing more usage, Ferrothorn is becoming a little better as it may sometimes be able to handle them. Ferrothorn with Power Whip is also able to provide counterplay against Tapu Fini, who has begun gaining usage with a new Calm Mind set. Ferrothorn also gained a little bit of usage from rain becoming a little more common.

#25 (7.373%) > #14 (12.018%)
It's honestly kind of funny how regular Swampert managed to become solid in Gen 8 OU while Blaziken is nearly on the edge of falling into UU. Swampert is a pretty reliable Stealth Rock user that is able to provide defensive utility against Regieleki and Heatran while providing momentum through Flip Turn, which is actually pretty convenient given how slow Swampert is. A very slow Flip Turn is similar to Teleport, in that it allows safer switches to become possible.

#23 (8.188%) > #15 (11.726%)
Tapu Fini's defensive typing and bulk makes it a pretty reliable defensive mon that can switch into Zygarde and Heatran, but it also has a new Calm Mind set that's been growing in popularity. This set is usually Calm Mind + Taunt + Draining Kiss + Surf. This is very similar to what Primarina ran in the past, but Taunt is the main game changer here, as this allows Tapu Fini to prevent Toxapex from using Haze to remove boosts, as well as prevent both Toxapex and Blissey from using recovery moves. Draining Kiss helps Tapu Fini maintain its longevity, and the bulk and typing mentioned before make it difficult to immediately KO once it starts setting up Calm Mind.

#28 (7.039%) > #17 (10.770%)
Cinderace is starting to pick up some usage after being overshadowed by the new and returning mons. It's still running the same 4 attack pivot set as it did in the past, but with Sucker Punch and High Jump Kick being run more often. Sucker Punch is great for threatening faster mons like Spectrier, and High Jump Kick prevents Heatran from walling Cinderace. Gunk Shot is still useful for hitting Clefable, Tapu Fini, and dealing solid damage to Moltres while avoiding Flame Body.

#33 (5.445%) > #18 (10.479%)
Mandibuzz looks to be one of the more reliable answers to Spectrier, as there are not too many Ghost-resists in the tier. Its typing also allows it to handle Rillaboom, and Foul Play allows it to actively threaten physical threats that want to boost their attack, such as Excadrill. On top of switching into Spectrier, Mandibuzz can provide utility with Knock Off and Toxic, and also provide momentum with U-turn.

#29 (6.869%) > #19 (10.377%)
Rain is starting to become more common and Pelipper's increased usage is proof of it. Pelipper itself is mandatory due to providing Drizzle, and it looks like rain is doing well enough to where it may become more common as players continue to discover and fine tune a standard rain structure.

#39 (4.666%) > #25 (8.346%)
Latios had a pretty slow start due to a lot of stronger and newer options being released, but it is starting to pick up in usage. Its most common sets are Life Orb with 3 attacks, as well as Choice Specs sets with Trick. Latios has pretty good coverage with Draco Meteor + Psyshock/Psychic + Aura Sphere hitting everything for solid damage outside of Magearna. Mystical Fire can hit Magearna and other Steel-types, but misses out on Heatran. Trick alongside Choice Specs means that Latios can often cripple and opposing Steel-type or Fairy-type, with the most common victims being Magearna and Heatran.

(Rapid-Strike) #40 (4.636%) > #23 (8.984%)
Urshifu-R is usually seen on rain teams, where it looks to pose a sizable threat with Surging Strikes under the rain. Outside of Toxapex, Slowbro and Ferrothorn, not much wants to switch into Surging Strikes to begin with, but Urshifu-R also has the option to U-turn out as those mons come in, as well as Close Combat to deal with Ferrothorn on the spot.

Notable decreases in usage:

#11 (14.955%) > #20 (10.284%)
#15 (12.198%) > #31 (7.400%)
#13 (12.764%) > #32 (7.132%)
#16 (12.178%) > #38 (5.149%)

The above mons received a great deal of usage previously, which was most likely due to them being newly released, but now it appears that their usage is starting to more closely reflect their performance in OU, and their days as new toys is starting to die down. Regieleki and Tapu Koko have been met with an abundance of Ground-types, Zapdos-Galar has been alright, but nothing special, and it dislikes having physically defensive Clefable see a spike in usage. Finally, Blaziken's immense recoil from Flare Blitz along with struggling to set up at times was apparently enough to nearly make it drop to UU. These mons may continue to see less usage, or perhaps they'll find new ways to be used and see an increase in usage. It's worth noting that aside from Tapu Koko with Dazzling Gleam, the other 3 mons all strongly dislike Zygarde, who can usually sponge a hit and threaten back or cripple with Glare. Zygarde being the most used mon in OU definetely spells trouble for them, and this might also be a reason as to why they're currently struggling.

Rising to OU:

#44 (3.938%) > #16 (11.234%)
Buzzwole slightly saw a good deal of usage before, but over the last few weeks has really cemented its place in the metagame as a very solid defensive pivot that's capable of handling some of OU's biggest threats, including Zygarde, Pheromosa, and Urshifu-S. It's a lot more consistent than Clefable at checking these mons due to its immense physical bulk, and it is also able to pose a threat in return with thanks to Bulk Up. Finally, Buzzwole, like Melmetal, is one of the best in terms of being a defensive answer to Kyurem-Black. In this case, Buzzwole's massive bulk alongside Bulk Up and Drain Punch are what allow it to handle Kyurem-Black.

#54 (2.848%) > #37 (5.481%)
Rain teams are growing more common, and Barraskewda tends to be a staple thanks to its respectable attacking power in conjunction with its naturally high speed stat, which gets even further boosted by Swift Swim. Flip Turn plays a good part in what Barraskewda does, as it's able to deal decent damage while grabbing momentum in return.

#93 (0.915%) > #40 (4.615%)
Nidoking barely made the cut and is finally OU by usage after a very long time. Landorus-I getting banned opened the door for Nidoking to get used as a strong special attacking Ground-type, and it has been doing very well on that front thanks to its movepool providing solid coverage. It's able to threaten nearly every defensive mon, with Blissey being the lone exception, and it has a solid enough speed tier to threaten slightly faster defensive mons like Heatran and Buzzwole

Fall from OU:

#27 (7.143%) > #44 (3.222%)

With the metagame becoming less centralized around hyper offense, Ditto's time in OU was winding down and it's not terribly surprising that managed to drop right away.

I'll post the usual questions below:

1. What surprised you the most from these stats?
2. Among the mons with increased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see an increase in usage?
3. Among the mons with decreased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see a decrease in usage?
4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
6. How do you feel about the most common offensive mons in the tier?
7. How do you feel about the most common defensive mons in the tier?
8. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
9. What are your favorite mons to use in OU right now?
10. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of the day :)

Also, today officially marks the 1 year anniversary of Sword and Shield! It's been a long and rough year, but it's nice to see that we're in an enjoyable metagame now, and hopefully there's more to enjoy in the future.
I just wanted to preface this post stating how grateful I am to the OU Council for doing such a good job managing the tier, and I understand that it's kinda a thankless job, so thank you. I really appreciate how willing they are to listen to community feedback-- it's seriously so awesome. Keep up the incredible work you guys!

With that aside, I'd like to answer the questions now:
1. What surprised you the most from these stats?
Well there was certainly a lot of surprises- The meta is very unstable at the moment and honestly one of the biggest shocks is the fact that literally nothing dropped bar Ditto (which is Ditto so it gets a special exception here.) and the only things that rose were :barraskewda: Barraskewda, the best rain mon not counting Pelipper, a playstyle which definitely has had its ups and downs this gen but seems to be pretty great in the meta now as a dedicated playstyle. Other than that, :buzzwole: Buzzwole rose which surprised nobody; it's such a consistent check to so many things, as well as :nidoking: Nidoking which actually was pretty unexpected. With the ban of Lando-I, someone needs to spam Earth Power/Sludge Wave and Nidoking does it pretty well. It is incredible at threatening defensive mons with its wide array of coverage and high power--only Blissey (of the current OU defensive mons) is a consitent defensive counter and even that is 2HKO'd by Superpower on a roll, so nothing is truly safe. That said, a rather low speed tier of 85 paired with unimpressive bulk means that offensive counterplay is plentiful. Substitute alleviates this at the cost of coverage- a reasonable sacrifice based on the team. I'd say in general, an All-Out Attacker set with STABs and BoltBeam is the way to go on most builds, but Nidoking has the movepool to do other things as well. :swampert: Swampert seeing such huge usage thus far was a very pleasant surprise; Pre-DLC projections had it looking like it was headed for UU for sure, but here we are with it at 14th with over 12% usage. This has been said to death at this point, but Flip Turn was an incredible buff for it in this momentum-heavy generation. It is super consistent at getting rocks up especially with Grass type moves being few and far between nowadays. The best way to use it is liberally early-game to keep their breakers in check, keep up the momentum, and dish out chip and status among their team, and set up rocks when necessary. Its longevity is kinda a non-issue when it only needs to stick around for the first part of the game- and even then, WishPort Clef is a great partner for it. The other big surprise is how much of a non-threat :blaziken: Blaziken and :tornadus-therian: Torn-T are. When they were first released they seemed very scary but the meta has not been kind to them. If they drop to UU I think they'll be back, but who knows?
2. Among the mons with increased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see an increase in usage?
:nidoking: :swampert: I already gave my opinions on these fellas, just know that they are on the rise. :cinderace: Cinderace and :magearna: Magearna should rise in not too long once the tier settles a bit more. Ace can do exactly what it did before, but it also has increasingly offensive sets emerging that can be very threatening. Scarf, Band, and LO all have their place as pivots and breakers- Cinderace's versatility and power continue to impress me. Magearna is a little scary to be honest and I can see it going sooner than we might be expecting. It still has countless sets and it can be pretty stupid at times. In any case, it's clearly very good and I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not, we'll have to see.
3. Among the mons with decreased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see a decrease in usage?
:zapdos-galar: Gapdos is great, don't get me wrong. But I'm starting to see it drop more and more- Zapdos is great in this meta, which means that it takes away from Gapdos' usage and unlike Gapdos, Zapdos is pretty hard to replace on teams for what roles it fills. If you stick a Gapdos on your team, you might be open to another physical breaker which isn't very hard to find in this meta, meanwhile the unique qualities that Zapdos has (including checking said breakers, actually!) means that Gapdos just isn't that great. Will it drop to UU? Not sure but anything is possible. Other than Gapdos- :corviknight: Corv faces a ton of competition from the other birds in the tier, so much so that I think it will drop to UU. Unless some things change in the priorities people have in building, Corv is gonna drop.
4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
As a matter of fact, :dragapult: Pult and :slowbro: Slowbro have shockingly low usage for how good they are- Pult is Pult with a coveted speed tier, the ability to check :zygarde: and :kyurem-black: better than most other things, and a plethora of sets that it can run. Slowbro is a top bulky water in the meta but doesn't see anywhere near as much usage as :swampert: :toxapex: :tapu-fini: which is surprising, Future Sight is an incredible niche in and of itself.
5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
:spectrier: Spectrier really just clicks Shadow Ball/Hex and prays that it gets a kill. Its speed tier and power are lowkey stupid, but the inability to touch literally any normal type hurts. It's still solid but I'm guessing it falls out of the top ten sooner or later. Most other things are about where I expect them to be in terms of usage otherwise.

Expect a part two sometime where I answer the other half of the questions! As always, thanks!
 

TPP

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Head TD
Tundra Cup Round 3 usage stats are here!

Round 3 Usage Stats

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Zygarde            |   88 |  35.48% |  42.05% |
| 2    | Clefable           |   80 |  32.26% |  47.50% |
| 3    | Toxapex            |   65 |  26.21% |  55.38% |
| 4    | Heatran            |   62 |  25.00% |  48.39% |
| 5    | Urshifu-*          |   55 |  22.18% |  43.64% |
| 6    | Landorus-Therian   |   53 |  21.37% |  60.38% |
| 7    | Melmetal           |   51 |  20.56% |  56.86% |
| 8    | Kyurem-Black       |   50 |  20.16% |  48.00% |
| 8    | Buzzwole           |   50 |  20.16% |  44.00% |
| 10   | Pheromosa          |   47 |  18.95% |  51.06% |
| 11   | Magearna           |   44 |  17.74% |  52.27% |
| 12   | Mandibuzz          |   41 |  16.53% |  46.34% |
| 13   | Spectrier          |   40 |  16.13% |  47.50% |
| 14   | Ferrothorn         |   34 |  13.71% |  64.71% |
| 14   | Slowbro            |   34 |  13.71% |  61.76% |
| 16   | Tyranitar          |   33 |  13.31% |  54.55% |
| 17   | Excadrill          |   30 |  12.10% |  66.67% |
| 18   | Blissey            |   28 |  11.29% |  67.86% |
| 19   | Zapdos             |   27 |  10.89% |  59.26% |
| 20   | Moltres            |   24 |   9.68% |  58.33% |
| 20   | Tornadus-Therian   |   24 |   9.68% |  41.67% |
| 22   | Zarude             |   23 |   9.27% |  60.87% |
| 23   | Cinderace          |   22 |   8.87% |  54.55% |
| 24   | Dragonite          |   20 |   8.06% |  60.00% |
| 25   | Swampert           |   19 |   7.66% |  57.89% |
| 25   | Pelipper           |   19 |   7.66% |  52.63% |
| 27   | Tapu Koko          |   18 |   7.26% |  55.56% |
| 27   | Slowking           |   18 |   7.26% |  44.44% |
| 29   | Corviknight        |   17 |   6.85% |  52.94% |
| 29   | Dragapult          |   17 |   6.85% |  47.06% |
| 31   | Latios             |   16 |   6.45% |  68.75% |
| 31   | Tapu Lele          |   16 |   6.45% |  50.00% |
| 33   | Kartana            |   14 |   5.65% |  78.57% |
| 33   | Suicune            |   14 |   5.65% |  57.14% |
| 33   | Ditto              |   14 |   5.65% |  50.00% |
| 33   | Garchomp           |   14 |   5.65% |  50.00% |
| 33   | Regieleki          |   14 |   5.65% |  35.71% |
| 38   | Tapu Fini          |   13 |   5.24% |  53.85% |
| 39   | Zapdos-Galar       |   12 |   4.84% |  33.33% |
| 40   | Dracozolt          |    9 |   3.63% |  44.44% |
| 40   | Rillaboom          |    9 |   3.63% |  33.33% |
| 42   | Aegislash          |    8 |   3.23% |  50.00% |
| 42   | Nidoking           |    8 |   3.23% |  37.50% |
| 42   | Barraskewda        |    8 |   3.23% |  37.50% |
| 42   | Celesteela         |    8 |   3.23% |  37.50% |
| 46   | Thundurus-Therian  |    7 |   2.82% |  42.86% |
| 46   | Hawlucha           |    7 |   2.82% |  42.86% |
| 46   | Kingdra            |    7 |   2.82% |  42.86% |
| 46   | Mew                |    7 |   2.82% |  28.57% |
| 46   | Blacephalon        |    7 |   2.82% |  14.29% |
| 46   | Blaziken           |    7 |   2.82% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Hippowdon          |    6 |   2.42% |  66.67% |
| 52   | Latias             |    6 |   2.42% |  33.33% |
| 54   | Hatterene          |    5 |   2.02% |  20.00% |
| 54   | Volcanion          |    5 |   2.02% |  20.00% |
| 56   | Gastrodon          |    4 |   1.61% |  75.00% |
| 56   | Nidoqueen          |    4 |   1.61% |  75.00% |
| 56   | Nihilego           |    4 |   1.61% |  50.00% |
| 56   | Cresselia          |    4 |   1.61% |  50.00% |
| 56   | Magnezone          |    4 |   1.61% |  50.00% |
| 56   | Marowak-Alola      |    4 |   1.61% |  50.00% |
| 56   | Tapu Bulu          |    4 |   1.61% |  50.00% |
| 56   | Grimmsnarl         |    4 |   1.61% |  25.00% |
| 56   | Chansey            |    4 |   1.61% |  25.00% |
| 56   | Shuckle            |    4 |   1.61% |  25.00% |
| 56   | Volcarona          |    4 |   1.61% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Crawdaunt          |    3 |   1.21% | 100.00% |
| 67   | Skarmory           |    3 |   1.21% |  66.67% |
| 67   | Amoonguss          |    3 |   1.21% |  66.67% |
| 67   | Bisharp            |    3 |   1.21% |  33.33% |
| 67   | Ribombee           |    3 |   1.21% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Ninetales-Alola    |    3 |   1.21% |   0.00% |
| 73   | Porygon2           |    2 |   0.81% | 100.00% |
| 73   | Salamence          |    2 |   0.81% |  50.00% |
| 73   | Scizor             |    2 |   0.81% |  50.00% |
| 73   | Mantine            |    2 |   0.81% |  50.00% |
| 73   | Moltres-Galar      |    2 |   0.81% |  50.00% |
| 73   | Mamoswine          |    2 |   0.81% |  50.00% |
| 73   | Klefki             |    2 |   0.81% |  50.00% |
| 73   | Regidrago          |    2 |   0.81% |   0.00% |
| 73   | Victini            |    2 |   0.81% |   0.00% |
| 73   | Weavile            |    2 |   0.81% |   0.00% |
| 73   | Glastrier          |    2 |   0.81% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Slowking-Galar     |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Conkeldurr         |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Quagsire           |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Incineroar         |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Weezing-Galar      |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Diggersby          |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Jirachi            |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Kyurem             |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Kommo-o            |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Azelf              |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Torkoal            |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Charizard          |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Venusaur           |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Gyarados           |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Terrakion          |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Shedinja           |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Seismitoad         |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Thundurus          |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Registeel          |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Aggron             |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Obstagoon          |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Toxtricity         |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Zeraora            |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Gengar             |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Salazzle           |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Raikou             |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Hydreigon          |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Jynx               |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Slowbro-Galar      |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
Moves and Teammates
Combos
Round 3 Leads

Code:
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Landorus-Therian        |   18 |   7.26% |  72.22% |
| 1    | Clefable                |   18 |   7.26% |  27.78% |
| 3    | Toxapex                 |   17 |   6.85% |  58.82% |
| 4    | Pheromosa               |   15 |   6.05% |  66.67% |
| 5    | Heatran                 |   11 |   4.44% |  54.55% |
| 6    | Zygarde                 |    9 |   3.63% |  33.33% |
| 7    | Slowbro                 |    8 |   3.23% |  75.00% |
| 7    | Tapu Koko               |    8 |   3.23% |  62.50% |
| 7    | Swampert                |    8 |   3.23% |  62.50% |
| 7    | Pelipper                |    8 |   3.23% |  62.50% |
| 11   | Melmetal                |    7 |   2.82% |  85.71% |
| 12   | Spectrier               |    6 |   2.42% |  66.67% |
| 13   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike    |    5 |   2.02% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Cinderace               |    5 |   2.02% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Ferrothorn              |    5 |   2.02% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Excadrill               |    5 |   2.02% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Garchomp                |    5 |   2.02% |  40.00% |
| 13   | Kyurem-Black            |    5 |   2.02% |  20.00% |
| 19   | Dragapult               |    4 |   1.61% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Tornadus-Therian        |    4 |   1.61% |  25.00% |
| 21   | Blissey                 |    3 |   1.21% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Tapu Lele               |    3 |   1.21% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Nihilego                |    3 |   1.21% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Magearna                |    3 |   1.21% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Mew                     |    3 |   1.21% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Latios                  |    3 |   1.21% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Urshifu                 |    3 |   1.21% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Tyranitar               |    3 |   1.21% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Kartana                 |    2 |   0.81% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Nidoqueen               |    2 |   0.81% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Slowking                |    2 |   0.81% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Moltres                 |    2 |   0.81% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Regieleki               |    2 |   0.81% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Rillaboom               |    2 |   0.81% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Amoonguss               |    2 |   0.81% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Gastrodon               |    2 |   0.81% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Ditto                   |    2 |   0.81% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Dracozolt               |    2 |   0.81% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Zapdos                  |    2 |   0.81% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Grimmsnarl              |    2 |   0.81% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Shuckle                 |    2 |   0.81% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Hatterene               |    2 |   0.81% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Zapdos-Galar            |    2 |   0.81% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Buzzwole                |    2 |   0.81% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Conkeldurr              |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Crawdaunt               |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Zarude                  |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Chansey                 |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Mamoswine               |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Azelf                   |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Thundurus-Therian       |    1 |   0.40% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Suicune                 |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Torkoal                 |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Rotom-Wash              |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Tapu Fini               |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Terrakion               |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Kingdra                 |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Barraskewda             |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Thundurus               |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Aggron                  |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Ninetales-Alola         |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Volcarona               |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Celesteela              |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Gengar                  |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Magnezone               |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
Before I leave some questions, I'll go ahead and address some valid concerns. First off, Urshifu's usage is a bit misleading as the current replay tool I use for these stats counts usage for both Urshifu forms under Urshifu-*. This means that if 30 Urshifu-S and 25 Urshifu-R are used, it'll produce Urshifu-* with 55 uses. I'll try and get it addressed, or come up with an alternative to circumvent the issue. I apologize for the inconvenience at this time. As the tournament moves into its last half, the number of games and replays will decrease, and this will probably make the usage stats a bit less unreliable. That being said, I think it's still possible to look into overall usage to notice any oddities, as well as combos in order to see what some common cores are. This can be useful to see what "standard" looks like, and it's also useful to try and discover what looks like an anti-meta threat that performs well against those common cores. Finally, the replays are all in the Round 3 thread for anyone to look and watch, and this not only gives me the opportunity to create usage stats, but also gives anyone a chance to highlight a certain replay or replays and discuss whatever they feel is worth sharing.

1. What are the biggest differences between these usage stats and mid-November usage stats?
2. What stood out or surprised you the most?
3. Are there any cores/combos that you find interesting or consistent? If so, what are they?
4. Seeing as how rain is starting to pick up both on ladder and in Tundra Cup, how do you feel about the playstyle?
5. What is your favorite replay from Tundra Cup so far? There's no right/wrong answer to this, and you all are more than welcome to leave anything, whether it's an intense well played game, or a game with some creative sets and enjoyable moments. If there's something you enjoyed or something valuable you'd like to share, then feel free to share so the rest of us can enjoy or discuss with you. The only wrong answer here is if you intend on sharing a replay in order to belittle or ridicule one of the players. We're here to have fun, so there's never a need to try and make someone feel worse. Anyways, I'll leave links for the Round 3 Replays, Round 2 Replays, and Round 1 Replays.

If you have any questions, you are more than welcome to ask. Have a wonderful week :toast:
 
And I'm back for round two.
6. How do you feel about the most common offensive mons in the tier?
:zygarde: Zygarde has been an interesting debate in the tier since its release. While many claim it is broken and leave it there, I want to talk a little more about it and why it is an interesting case. On paper, it seems fairly manageable- A slower and less strong Garchomp that also has a worse ability, in exchange for bulk, better setup moves, and Thousand Arrows. It doesn't seem too bad, right? But then I look and Garchomp is at 24th in usage- not bad by any means, but how does a seemingly slower and weaker version of itself have the most usage of any Pokemon in the tier? The real reason is due to Zygarde's higher utility, versatility, and ability to make progress. While its main set, SubCoil, only has a single attacking move in Thousand Arrows, this is more than enough. Thousand Arrows is an incredible tool capable of making progress against the entire tier- Among the current OU Pokemon, there are three that resist TArrows. They are Pheremosa, a very frail Pokemon that can't switch in to anything Zygarde uses whatsoever, including setup moves. Then we have Rillaboom, a Pokemon that will be crippled by Zygarde with Glare or Toxic in order to force it out, leaving as possible setup fodder at other parts of the game. Lastly, we have Buzzwole. Buzzwole is the third resist and it is the best possible check to Zygarde, no contest, being bulky enough to deal with TArrows spam and having Ice Punch to quickly dispose of Zygarde. Clefable, especially Unaware variants, can handle it as well but can be overwhelmed reasonably easily. As for offensive answers, Pult can revenge it behind a sub, Magearna and Kyurem-B can use it as setup fodder (however Magearna must be healthy and preferably have Draining Kiss), and a couple of other mons have Ice coverage that can be used. That's it. Zygarde simply fits on too many teams, spreads too much status (the very Electric, Poison, and Steel types that are immune to its Glares and Toxics are weak to TArrows!), and spams Thousand Arrows like there is no tomorrow. Zygarde, if it isn't broken, is dang close to it.
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-B has a very ubiquitous presence in the tier as an offensive check to Zygarde, among other things. Kyub has a very versatile fourth moveslot to fill- While Icicle Spear, Fusion Bolt, and Dragon Dance are requirements, it can be very flexible in the fourth slot. It can run Roost to greatly aid its longevity alongside HDB, it can use Sub (with Lefties/Boots), it can throw Dual Wingbeat or Earth Power on to beat other checks- the point is that it can be very unpredictable, and that it has a very long lifespan for an offensive mon like itself. 125/100/90 bulk, even uninvested, is very good, especially with reliable recovery in the form of Roost. It gets multiple chances to set up throughout games due to this bulk, which can easily spell the end of teams that don't preserve their counterplay properly. Counterplay in general is limited like Zygarde, as very little resists BoltBeam. Your best bets are easily Clefable, Magearna, Heatran, Melmetal, Swampert, Ferrothorn, Buzzwole, and Kyub itself. They each have their own shortcomings in handling Kyub- Clef is easy to overwhelm unless it is Unaware. Magearna, Heatran, Melmetal, Swampert, and Ferrothorn all can't recover HP at a fast enough rate to keep up for very long, in addition to the three Mythical Steel types each dropping to Earth Power. Buzzwole, while having reliable recovery and higher physical bulk, drops very quickly to Dual Wingbeat. Kyub itself is a game of chance for both players and most won't risk that, especially since switching your Kyub in means that the Kyub sitting in front of you can potentially set up and win 1v1. Offensive counterplay is mainly those that don't die in one/two hits and can KO back- not exactly a favorable scenario. Overall, Kyurem-B is restrictive to teambuilding as a result.
The other top offensive mons in the tier that I find effective :magearna: :spectrier: :melmetal: :urshifu: :pheromosa: all have potential to be problematic at one point or another, which is interesting and may or may not be a bad thing. The power level of offense is years ahead of DLC1.
7. How do you feel about the most common defensive mons in the tier?
:toxapex: :tapu-fini: :swampert: :slowbro: I find it interesting that Pex, Fini, Pert, and Bro are coexisting in the tier as bulky waters. Pex dominated as a bulky water for the duration of this gen so far but the way the tier has shaken out leaves all four as viable. Pex is Pex and has Recover, Regen, Knock, Haze, and Toxic Spikes. Fini has Calm Mind, Draining Kiss and Misty Terrain. Pert has Rocks, Flip Turn, and STAB Earthquake. Slowbro also has Regen/Slack Off, but differs from Pex in that it has Future Sight+Teleport instead of Knock/TSpikes/Haze. Other than those, the tier is about where you'd expect it defensively, with many things barely managing to check the offense running around the tier. BlissBro is a cool core, Buzzwole+Zapdos/Moltres is very sturdy, and in general most defensive Pokemon are pretty solid. So there's that.
8. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
Teambuilding isn't too bad. I'm a sucky builder myself, but in general I feel like I can cover the crazy stuff with my squads if I build carefully. Offense is easier to build around at the moment.
9. What are your favorite mons to use in OU right now?
:swampert: :buzzwole: These two are great. Swampert is one of the most consistent mons I've used. Buzzwole is so good at checking stuff and seriously pulls its weight in every single battle I use it in. I love it.
10. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of the day :)
You too! :D
 
Does anyone know how much evasion Bright Powder+Sand Veil has?
Garchomp @ Bright Powder
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
I’v been using this on a sand team, and rarely has my opponent missed a move.
Isn’t supposed to make 100% accurate move become a 67.5% accurate? I’m usually unlucky, but something feels way off here.
And yes, it’s also during sand stream being activated.
 
Hey all, first time contributing here as I only casually laddered before the latest dlc, but I peaked at 2100ish with screens offense, and 2050+ with full stall and currently leading the ou room tour so I wanted to share my opinions about the meta which really differs than the usual discussions/evaluations I have read in here.
First things first, the only thing that surprises me in usage rate of Tundra cup v3 is the existence of Lando-t instead of blissey in the most used 6 pokemons (zygarde, clefable, toxapex, heatran, lando-t, melmetal) and I believe the usage rate of these mons would be even higher if you look at, say 1900+ in ladder.

Especially after the ban of Naga (this one is at least more justified ) and Lando-I (this one at best is just the result of looking at "theory" over practice) fat mons are so much better than their offensive counterpart, in a hyper offense vs fat matchup, fat can get away with badly misplaying 10 turns in a row. Before I analyze problematic fat mons, I want to analyze offensive ones that are banned, or probably about to be banned in depth and give opinion on why they should only be banned at the same time with the fat ones I mention below and not before.

Kyurem-Black : I will look at Kyurem-B behind the screens since this is the one people claim is problematic, brainless and unstoppable.
Before giving the calculations, people need to understand two/three things because I really don't want to get answers in the lines of "Life orb earth power can kill melmetal in switch in (which even then is not actually true)

1)If you are running screens, it means you spend precious time with one of your mons where opponent do whatever they want and you generally continue the match 5v6 and without momentum. This means, you will most likely give away hazard control to your opponent. If you use something like LO kyub instead of HDB you are basically doomed as the recoil damage from LO, plus the entry hazards will make you wear down so fast.

2)Because screen user, already wastes a mon to set things up and give up momentum, if you trade one of your mons with a sweeper or sometimes even two of your mons, in most scenarios you are winning. Although against Kyub there are so many counterplays which I am gonna mention below that you dont even need to give one (again it is totally okay if you give one away and deal with Kyub, you are totally winning)


Melmetal: This is the most obvious and straightforward answer which one shots Kyub if it is CB even with screens on.
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 147-173 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 68.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-Black through Reflect: 414-488 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ferrothorn : Any pokemon that can spread status actually will do to stop the sweep of kyub but ferro's access to gyro ball makes it nearly impossible for kyub to go forward
+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 180-216 (51.1 - 61.3%) -- approx. 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rain/Swampert , Sand/Tyranitar, Sun/Torkoal : All of this works really similar. Kyurem even in +2, 2 HKO them(max def Torkoal is 3HKO) and they give a status move to render kyub useless. Also Important to mention Kyub needs +2 boosts to outspeed scarfers/weather abusers and +3 to outspeed Barraskewda
Buzzwole : Toxic rocky helmet neutralizes even wingbeat kyub in his tracks.
Heatran : I don't know why this thing is in OU for such a long time but it can also take hits from +1 Kyub, no surprise here.
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 190-224 (49.2 - 58%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Toxapex : Another thing I don't know why it is in OU for such a long time but it can also take a hit from +1 Kyub then toxic/haze and stall screen turns. It also has potential to live a +2 Fusion Bolt which really is insane. Coupled with a ground mon, Kyub suffers.
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 214-252 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 284-336 (93.4 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO



I can move on and list 30 mons that can effectively deal with kyub, but the idea is nearly always the same. When it is working with screens you are not obliged to beat it without giving any mons even tho it is easily possible to do so. U turning to scarfers like pult will also usually work. Furthermore since even in +1 or +2 it doesn't one shot majority of the mons even with the best predict, you can just switch around and wait for it to wear down itself.
I honestly don't see why people cannot deal with Kyub screens as every sane team in existence has more than one answer to him and I dropped him from my team as it becomes a deadweight against people who know what they are doing. Again if you look at the usage stats of 1900+ I am pretty sure this thing is not top 10, top 15 and maybe even top 20.
Ofc I am not mentioning getting rid of screens by defogging, court change, not allowing them to go up etc as they are general strats against screens and not Kyub itself and there are still many more options like phasing.

I tried to couple it with safeguard Klefki(to protect from status) and try to beat full fat/stall with insane timing but if both sides knows what they are doing it is generally impossible. The only thing I like about Kyub in screens offense is it's access to Teravolt, which at least make people think before slapping an unaware mon to survive. And even then things like Quag/Clef survive your +2 Icicle Spear and safeguard doesn't really last long enough

I really don't see how Kyub can be problematic/ban worthy in this meta when I can count countless strats to render it useless on top of my head. If you really let Kyub go to +3 in screens, you are doing something really wrong.

Even with explaining one mon it took me al ot of time and I hope I have time to touch Naga as well, whose ban is at least more reasonable as it has less counterplay but Kyub literally has counterplay in everyteam and banning it before things like zygarde ,pex, heatran,melm, clefable just indicates the hate of offensive mons here. Now the point here is not that Melm needs to be banned necessarily but all of this mons have 500x more value in metagame than Kyub has and if something has to go Kyub definitely needs to wait until they get what they deserve.


Lando-I : Another mon that punished certain fat cores (holy trio of pex clef heatran). It's speed tier is certainly not the best so it had to waste one slot to RP if it want to threaten offensive mons. Gets walled by mandibuzz,cresellia, blissey in%99 of the cases, It isn't bulky with 89-90-80 and definitely needs gravity to cover more things in the meta(Zapdos, Celesteela, Moltres, Skarm etc) (and predict switch/use gravity at the right time). Gravity is also really good to make focus miss an accurate move which has less than %50 of chance to hit twice in a row. I won't go into much detail as it is already banned but both defensive and offensive teams had ways to deal with this. With screens I think it's best set was RP-Gravity- Earth Power- Focus Blast but again it had many counterplays (less than kyub and probably more than naga). This was a strong wall breaker and it is normal for the strongest wall breaker to break fats like pex heatran,clefable. I really don't think this should have been banned

Naga: Again I won't delve into much detail as this thing is already banned and it definitely had less counterplay than Kyub and Lando I. Counterteams I can think on top of my head includes, heatran, av users, trick room, screens, could be revenge killed/prority moves. Mons with absurd amount of spdef like Snorlax also work but I don't count rarely used mons as counterplay. I never experienced any problem against Naga using screens but again, this one is more justified to ban.

Genesect : Screens don't lose to this so I didn't experience a problem, but this is an obvious ban, no qualms here.

Now comes the main purpose of this post, aka the broken fat mons. I will list them in order. But before covering each of them, I want to point out one thing that makes them so ridiculously easy to use and broken is that , even though one mon can beat one of them there is literally no way for that mon to have enough sustain to survive against the rotations of the fat team cuz stat wise these fats are much better than their offensive counterparts.


1) Zygarde: This thing is the definition of broken and should have been banned day1. It really is only comparable to genesect in terms of its effect to the metagame and have too many viable sets. While glare itself is Thunderwave on steroids as it never misses and paralyzes ground types, It's access to the sub-coil/dd combined with glare makes it too threatening. But this set is just scratching the surface with zygarde. While you cannot risk this set zygarde can also run a choice band set, a toxic set to trap/seriously hurt its most commons answers like Buzzwole or just a fat set that takes Draco meteors from a freaking Dragapult (scarf) and survive. It can also tank things like +2 Adamant Blaziken's CC
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 345-406 (82.1 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While glare sub coil makes this look like mini Glaile with hoping to get the boost/para he wants , 108/121/95 on a mon that has access to glare/sub/toxic/coil/dd/good choice band set is simply unhealthy. Probably only true answer it has is Zarude. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes and it is okay to do so, but not banning this day 1 clearly shows a lack of understanding of current meta.

2)Toxapex : This is not a "glue that holds ou together". This is an obviously overpowered mon that lets people get away with misplaying 10 turns straight. While it's access to toxic-t spikes-knock off- regen- scald - haze - baneful bunker is problematic enough it's defensive stats 50-142-132 combined with its typing makes it nearly impossible to kill it. Very few mon can set up on pex since haze has 48 pp, it can pp stall anything it wants. I will just let calculations do the speaking on what this abomination can survive.

+4 252+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 255-300 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (so basically can even haze a +4 rilla/stall grassy terrain)
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 214-252 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Shared this in Kyurem's part before but yeah, can withhold the so called quickban worthy best offensive mons supereffective +1 move
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 176-210 (57.8 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Even one of the most offensive mons with stab effective move isn't able to "touch pex". This basically means, even if you put one of the best offensive threats with effective move against pex, you have the disadvantage cuz Pex can just toxic you and switch to it's unaware partner Clef, while recovering it's health. This should demolish how unhealthy and easy it is to play with this comp.

"Annoying not broken" argument applies to stuff like Ferro which has half the tools Pex has. These stats with this movepool is way too much.



Places 3 and 4 belongs to Clefable and Heatran but I am not sure which one is more problematic so I will start Clef

Clefable : While having a really good typing , decent bulk(considering its typing) what truly makes this scary to face is number of sets it can utilize. While magic guard sets like LO clef and trick sticky barb/flame orb is not used a lot anymore in top ladder, Magic Guard and Unaware offers clef so many sets you can't risk to scout. From trick choice items to Unaware HDB CM to medic/teleport to status moves it can use, she can destroy teams on her own. Unaware CM , makes most sweepers (bar things like Exca) useless, and while they do not require it, they can even run HDB to hide that they are unaware. Fairy typing with that bulk, ensures you are not even getting 2 HKOED by most physical attackers while having the ability to one shot them with a boosted Moonblast. But again the biggest problem of this set is that, the diversity of other sets Clef can take that you cant risk.
As with other mons I will just give a stat of it against boosted Kyurem-b since people think it is a broken offensive threat, Blaziken and a Garchomp with steel coverage.
+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 264-315 (67 - 79.9%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heatran: This one is interesting. While having a 91/106/106 bulk makes it hard to kill, the problematic part is again the moves it get and different sets it can run which can seriously destroy your team. The main problem is that nothing can switch in safely against the combination of magma storm and toxic without getting seriously hurt. Heatran can force a switch against lots of mons, destroy its switch ins, comeback again and repeat the same in 20 turns. If you are running a fat team with recovery this is really easy to do over and over again,and at one point your opponent will mispredict between magma and toxic/ your magma will not miss and you will get a clean kill. Trap kills most of the mons, have good move variety between toxic/taunt/protect/stealth rock and 130 spa for a mon this good is huge. Only opposing air balloon heatran can reliably switch in to this.
Including a calculation of heatran vs again "broken Kyub" which gets stopped by every team in existence

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 127-150 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Melmetal : I don't think this needs much explanation. Beats probably every physical attacker reliably in 1 o 1, with insane hp/attack/def stats. Not many if at all can switch into this safely. Good movepool, can break subs/focus sashes and some even use stuff like AV to beat nearly every mon in 1 v1.


The real problem starts when offensive mons like Lando i that threatens all of the mentioned above gets banned while these fats stay. Rn a fat team can easily recover its hp, counter everything in existence, misplay 10 times and get away with it cuz defensive mons in this tier is much better than its offensive counterparts. On top of my head I can name just say to someone create a team with unaware clef- bliss- pex - buzz/melm, one revengekiller/defogger and one way to beat stallbreaker Heatran, and you have a team that laughs at %99.99 of the meta which is not healthy.

I want to state this politely, the reason why some people (and lately even including me ) agrees/states that smogon rn loves fat way too much and are way too harsh against anything offensive that remotely threatens their core of pex clef etc is the things above. I really cannot believe Kyub which can be stopped by every viable team in existence is probably the first things thats gonna be banned next, when zygarde isnt qbanned day1 /still lives, pex has never been banned, and heatran isn't even mentioned in survey.

Like I said for a balanced meta I see two possible alternatives. Either not banning stuff like Lando that punishes some fat teams or also banning the defensive mons which rn are miles better than offensive ones. Banning an offensive mon just because it has a chance to sweep at +3 even tho it should never really get to +3, is not the way. Hopefully people can take some criticism as I was attacked/accused and bad mouthed for expressing this in ou lobby by people who really have no idea about what's happening in high ladder. Like it is okay to disagree with some points/send calcs/discuss but please do not quote me and write full stall/full fat doesn't exist in top ladder cuz that is just an obvious lie.
 
Does anyone know how much evasion Bright Powder+Sand Veil has?
Garchomp @ Bright Powder
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
I’v been using this on a sand team, and rarely has my opponent missed a move.
Isn’t supposed to make 100% accurate move become a 67.5% accurate? I’m usually unlucky, but something feels way off here.
And yes, it’s also during sand stream being activated.
It basically gives the opponent an 80% chance to hit for Veil then rolls again for the 10% from Brightpowder.

80 x 0.9 = 72% chance. You can probably drop Stone Edge for Substitute to really go all-in on the hax. Without Sub forcing Brightpowder rolls multiple times you're probably better off just using a different item.
 
Last edited:

ViZar

your toast is burned
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
What happened that made mandibuzz good again? From what I heard it Corviknight was still better...
Well Corviknight doesn't check many mons anymore. Zygarde and Kyurem-B beat it and Manibuzz has knock off + a better typing against Zygarde, Cinderace, Blaziken, Heatran and Spectrier + still being able to check Gapdos and Rillaboom. There is probably more to it, but those are some points that came to mind.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Might as well try to answer the usage questions. It was rather surprising to be honest

1. What surprised you the most from these stats?

Clefable being number two in usage. I honestly thought Kyurem would be the second in usage. Blaziken almost dropping to uu is also kind of surprising for me. How far the might have fallen

2. Among the mons with increased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see an increase in usage?

Garchomp, which I believe was 26th last time, especially if the very balanced Kyurem gets banned. Since I use it a lot, just after a single scale shot, it puts immense pressure on the enemy with its troll speed. To deal with this, Urshifu would probably rise even more to take advantage of the defense drop and Buzzwole to wall it

3. Among the mons with decreased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see a decrease in usage?

Spectrier and Regieleki. These mons are incredibly limited despite their major strengths. I am surprised that Spectrier is still even in the top ten but since dark or normal types are now an almost absolute must on any team, I believe it would continue to drop

4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?

None that I can see at the moment

5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?

Spectrier definitely. As much as I love it, it's presence alone forces people to put a dark or normal type on their team and with both those types being everywhere, it will most likely get less usage since it can barely scratch them at all

6. How do you feel about the most common offensive mons in the tier?

They're pretty okay for me. It's not like dealing with them is that difficult, for me anyway

7. How do you feel about the most common defensive mons in the tier?

Really annoying, especially Clefable. Other defensive mons are pretty okay as well but Clefable just straight up pisses me off. I really hate that thing

8. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?

So unversatile. Every time you build a team, you have to account for a Zygarde and Kyurem check or counter otherwise those two would run over your team. Spectrier also does the same but not to the same extent

9. What are your favorite mons to use in OU right now?

Scarf Hydreigon. There is no better feeling than seeing a cocky Kyurem thinking it can go for an early dd and sweep only to get nuked back to the giant chasm
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
Mid-November usage stats are here! Credit to Kalalokki for the great visual below:
Code:
Combined usage for OU (1695 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1    | Zygarde            | 24.764% |
| 2    | Clefable           | 21.344% |
| 3    | Landorus-Therian   | 21.289% |
| 4    | Magearna           | 20.554% |
| 5    | Heatran            | 20.003% |
| 6    | Kyurem-Black       | 18.993% |
| 7    | Urshifu            | 18.251% |
| 8    | Spectrier          | 18.097% |
| 9    | Melmetal           | 18.093% |
| 10   | Toxapex            | 17.735% |
| 11   | Pheromosa          | 17.189% |
| 12   | Ferrothorn         | 16.571% |
| 13   | Zapdos             | 14.633% |
| 14   | Swampert           | 12.018% |
| 15   | Tapu Fini          | 11.726% |
| 16   | Buzzwole           | 11.234% |
| 17   | Cinderace          | 10.770% |
| 18   | Mandibuzz          | 10.479% |
| 19   | Pelipper           | 10.377% |
| 20   | Regieleki          | 10.284% |
| 21   | Rillaboom          |  9.415% |
| 22   | Excadrill          |  9.368% |
| 23   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike |  8.984% |
| 24   | Garchomp           |  8.464% |
| 25   | Latios             |  8.346% |
| 26   | Tyranitar          |  8.279% |
| 27   | Blissey            |  7.734% |
| 28   | Slowbro            |  7.667% |
| 29   | Dragapult          |  7.492% |
| 30   | Moltres            |  7.403% |
| 31   | Tapu Koko          |  7.400% |
| 32   | Zapdos-Galar       |  7.132% |
| 33   | Tornadus-Therian   |  7.012% |
| 34   | Kartana            |  6.358% |
| 35   | Landorus           |  6.135% |
| 36   | Corviknight        |  5.682% |
| 37   | Barraskewda        |  5.481% |
| 38   | Blaziken           |  5.149% |
| 39   | Dragonite          |  4.727% |
| 40   | Nidoking           |  4.615% |
| 41   | Tapu Lele          |  4.317% |
| 42   | Hippowdon          |  3.373% |
| 43   | Slowking           |  3.230% |
| 44   | Ditto              |  3.222% |
| 45   | Celesteela         |  2.922% |
| 46   | Aegislash          |  2.870% |
| 47   | Scizor             |  2.766% |
| 48   | Zarude             |  2.684% |
| 49   | Shuckle            |  2.654% |
| 50   | Hatterene          |  2.578% |
| 51   | Thundurus-Therian  |  2.557% |
| 52   | Porygon2           |  2.500% |
| 53   | Kingdra            |  2.487% |
| 54   | Marowak-Alola      |  2.436% |
| 55   | Dracozolt          |  2.294% |
| 56   | Hawlucha           |  2.216% |
| 57   | Hydreigon          |  2.155% |
| 58   | Grimmsnarl         |  2.129% |
| 59   | Latias             |  2.122% |
| 60   | Crawdaunt          |  2.076% |
| 61   | Magnezone          |  1.967% |
| 62   | Cresselia          |  1.950% |
| 63   | Seismitoad         |  1.947% |
| 64   | Chansey            |  1.927% |
| 65   | Mamoswine          |  1.811% |
| 66   | Azumarill          |  1.808% |
| 67   | Glastrier          |  1.805% |
| 68   | Skarmory           |  1.792% |
| 69   | Mew                |  1.767% |
| 70   | Tangrowth          |  1.732% |
| 71   | Klefki             |  1.724% |
| 72   | Ninetales-Alola    |  1.710% |
| 73   | Tapu Bulu          |  1.705% |
| 74   | Suicune            |  1.562% |
| 75   | Victini            |  1.512% |
| 76   | Blacephalon        |  1.491% |
| 77   | Regidrago          |  1.482% |
| 78   | Quagsire           |  1.448% |
| 79   | Moltres-Galar      |  1.411% |
| 80   | Slowking-Galar     |  1.361% |
| 81   | Nihilego           |  1.315% |
| 82   | Amoonguss          |  1.312% |
| 83   | Volcarona          |  1.160% |
| 84   | Zeraora            |  1.149% |
| 85   | Arctozolt          |  1.131% |
| 86   | Bisharp            |  1.106% |
| 87   | Ribombee           |  1.076% |
| 88   | Kommo-o            |  1.072% |
| 89   | Volcanion          |  1.061% |
| 90   | Torkoal            |  1.030% |
| 91   | Jirachi            |  0.985% |
| 92   | Diggersby          |  0.975% |
| 93   | Salamence          |  0.961% |
| 94   | Venusaur           |  0.851% |
| 95   | Rotom-Wash         |  0.824% |
| 96   | Togekiss           |  0.787% |
| 97   | Zoroark            |  0.759% |
| 98   | Kyurem             |  0.758% |
| 99   | Stakataka          |  0.744% |
| 100  | Shedinja           |  0.731% |
| 101  | Rotom-Heat         |  0.728% |
| 102  | Metagross          |  0.661% |
| 103  | Gengar             |  0.631% |
| 104  | Nidoqueen          |  0.620% |
| 105  | Keldeo             |  0.589% |
| 106  | Incineroar         |  0.516% |
| 107  | Obstagoon          |  0.513% |
| 108  | Mimikyu            |  0.491% |
| 109  | Primarina          |  0.484% |
| 110  | Cloyster           |  0.483% |
| 111  | Weezing-Galar      |  0.455% |
| 112  | Gastrodon          |  0.452% |
| 113  | Araquanid          |  0.445% |
| 114  | Abomasnow          |  0.441% |
| 115  | Umbreon            |  0.428% |
| 116  | Azelf              |  0.421% |
| 117  | Omastar            |  0.409% |
| 118  | Weavile            |  0.386% |
| 119  | Krookodile         |  0.382% |
| 120  | Alakazam           |  0.380% |
| 121  | Articuno-Galar     |  0.375% |
| 122  | Rhyperior          |  0.370% |
| 123  | Conkeldurr         |  0.351% |
| 124  | Whimsicott         |  0.324% |
| 125  | Uxie               |  0.316% |
| 126  | Reuniclus          |  0.309% |
| 127  | Regigigas          |  0.304% |
| 128  | Avalugg            |  0.292% |
| 129  | Starmie            |  0.291% |
| 130  | Entei              |  0.291% |
| 131  | Toxtricity         |  0.279% |
| 132  | Thundurus          |  0.265% |
| 133  | Druddigon          |  0.261% |
| 134  | Mantine            |  0.232% |
| 135  | Raikou             |  0.210% |
| 136  | Porygon-Z          |  0.208% |
| 137  | Arctovish          |  0.202% |
| 138  | Lycanroc-Dusk      |  0.199% |
| 139  | Terrakion          |  0.178% |
| 140  | Xatu               |  0.178% |
| 141  | Aerodactyl         |  0.175% |
| 142  | Charizard          |  0.170% |
| 143  | Tornadus           |  0.169% |
| 144  | Pyukumuku          |  0.167% |
| 145  | Gyarados           |  0.162% |
| 146  | Vaporeon           |  0.158% |
| 147  | Indeedee           |  0.156% |
| 148  | Diancie            |  0.154% |
| 149  | Milotic            |  0.154% |
| 150  | Gigalith           |  0.154% |
| 151  | Chandelure         |  0.151% |
| 152  | Poliwrath          |  0.150% |
| 153  | Registeel          |  0.145% |
| 154  | Salazzle           |  0.143% |
| 155  | Slowbro-Galar      |  0.139% |
| 156  | Aurorus            |  0.138% |
| 157  | Kabutops           |  0.137% |
| 158  | Polteageist        |  0.135% |
| 159  | Articuno           |  0.134% |
| 160  | Necrozma           |  0.134% |
| 161  | Slurpuff           |  0.132% |
| 162  | Runerigus          |  0.128% |
| 163  | Flygon             |  0.125% |
| 164  | Tentacruel         |  0.117% |
| 165  | Cobalion           |  0.115% |
| 166  | Tyrantrum          |  0.115% |
| 167  | Darmanitan         |  0.114% |
| 168  | Golurk             |  0.112% |
| 169  | Haxorus            |  0.109% |
| 170  | Froslass           |  0.103% |
| 171  | Golisopod          |  0.103% |
| 172  | Meowstic           |  0.102% |
| 173  | Raichu-Alola       |  0.101% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
Changes to the Top 10:

#14 (12.207%) > #2 (21.34%)
After a slow start, Clefable is back to being at the top of OU's usage stats. It's a solid defensive mon that can switch into top threats like Zygarde, Pheromosa and Urshifu-S. Physically defensive Clefable is as reliable as ever, and it's a great Stealth Rock user that can support teams with Knock Off or Teleport + Wish.

#17
(11.254%) > #9 (18.093%)
Melmetal on the other hand might have had a slow start due to being overshadowed by the new DLC2 released mons, but it has finally gained more usage and broken into the top 10. It is a very strong physical tank that has been met with some new counterplay compared to DLC1, most notably in formes of Zapdos, Moltres, and Buzzwole. Melmetal often uses Choice Band or 3 attacks + Protect, with those attacking moves usually including Double Iron Bash, Earthquake, Ice Punch, and Superpower. It also has a ton of bulk, which makes it difficult for it to be 1HKO'd. This immense bulk along with Steel-typing lets Melmetal act as one of the best answers to Kyurem-Black.

Other notable increases in usage:

#19 (9.673%) > #12 (16.571%)
Ferrothorn has always been a reliable mon and with Melmetal and Magearna seeing more usage, Ferrothorn is becoming a little better as it may sometimes be able to handle them. Ferrothorn with Power Whip is also able to provide counterplay against Tapu Fini, who has begun gaining usage with a new Calm Mind set. Ferrothorn also gained a little bit of usage from rain becoming a little more common.

#25 (7.373%) > #14 (12.018%)
It's honestly kind of funny how regular Swampert managed to become solid in Gen 8 OU while Blaziken is nearly on the edge of falling into UU. Swampert is a pretty reliable Stealth Rock user that is able to provide defensive utility against Regieleki and Heatran while providing momentum through Flip Turn, which is actually pretty convenient given how slow Swampert is. A very slow Flip Turn is similar to Teleport, in that it allows safer switches to become possible.

#23 (8.188%) > #15 (11.726%)
Tapu Fini's defensive typing and bulk makes it a pretty reliable defensive mon that can switch into Zygarde and Heatran, but it also has a new Calm Mind set that's been growing in popularity. This set is usually Calm Mind + Taunt + Draining Kiss + Surf. This is very similar to what Primarina ran in the past, but Taunt is the main game changer here, as this allows Tapu Fini to prevent Toxapex from using Haze to remove boosts, as well as prevent both Toxapex and Blissey from using recovery moves. Draining Kiss helps Tapu Fini maintain its longevity, and the bulk and typing mentioned before make it difficult to immediately KO once it starts setting up Calm Mind.

#28 (7.039%) > #17 (10.770%)
Cinderace is starting to pick up some usage after being overshadowed by the new and returning mons. It's still running the same 4 attack pivot set as it did in the past, but with Sucker Punch and High Jump Kick being run more often. Sucker Punch is great for threatening faster mons like Spectrier, and High Jump Kick prevents Heatran from walling Cinderace. Gunk Shot is still useful for hitting Clefable, Tapu Fini, and dealing solid damage to Moltres while avoiding Flame Body.

#33 (5.445%) > #18 (10.479%)
Mandibuzz looks to be one of the more reliable answers to Spectrier, as there are not too many Ghost-resists in the tier. Its typing also allows it to handle Rillaboom, and Foul Play allows it to actively threaten physical threats that want to boost their attack, such as Excadrill. On top of switching into Spectrier, Mandibuzz can provide utility with Knock Off and Toxic, and also provide momentum with U-turn.

#29 (6.869%) > #19 (10.377%)
Rain is starting to become more common and Pelipper's increased usage is proof of it. Pelipper itself is mandatory due to providing Drizzle, and it looks like rain is doing well enough to where it may become more common as players continue to discover and fine tune a standard rain structure.

#39 (4.666%) > #25 (8.346%)
Latios had a pretty slow start due to a lot of stronger and newer options being released, but it is starting to pick up in usage. Its most common sets are Life Orb with 3 attacks, as well as Choice Specs sets with Trick. Latios has pretty good coverage with Draco Meteor + Psyshock/Psychic + Aura Sphere hitting everything for solid damage outside of Magearna. Mystical Fire can hit Magearna and other Steel-types, but misses out on Heatran. Trick alongside Choice Specs means that Latios can often cripple and opposing Steel-type or Fairy-type, with the most common victims being Magearna and Heatran.

(Rapid-Strike) #40 (4.636%) > #23 (8.984%)
Urshifu-R is usually seen on rain teams, where it looks to pose a sizable threat with Surging Strikes under the rain. Outside of Toxapex, Slowbro and Ferrothorn, not much wants to switch into Surging Strikes to begin with, but Urshifu-R also has the option to U-turn out as those mons come in, as well as Close Combat to deal with Ferrothorn on the spot.

Notable decreases in usage:

#11 (14.955%) > #20 (10.284%)
#15 (12.198%) > #31 (7.400%)
#13 (12.764%) > #32 (7.132%)
#16 (12.178%) > #38 (5.149%)

The above mons received a great deal of usage previously, which was most likely due to them being newly released, but now it appears that their usage is starting to more closely reflect their performance in OU, and their days as new toys is starting to die down. Regieleki and Tapu Koko have been met with an abundance of Ground-types, Zapdos-Galar has been alright, but nothing special, and it dislikes having physically defensive Clefable see a spike in usage. Finally, Blaziken's immense recoil from Flare Blitz along with struggling to set up at times was apparently enough to nearly make it drop to UU. These mons may continue to see less usage, or perhaps they'll find new ways to be used and see an increase in usage. It's worth noting that aside from Tapu Koko with Dazzling Gleam, the other 3 mons all strongly dislike Zygarde, who can usually sponge a hit and threaten back or cripple with Glare. Zygarde being the most used mon in OU definetely spells trouble for them, and this might also be a reason as to why they're currently struggling.

Rising to OU:

#44 (3.938%) > #16 (11.234%)
Buzzwole slightly saw a good deal of usage before, but over the last few weeks has really cemented its place in the metagame as a very solid defensive pivot that's capable of handling some of OU's biggest threats, including Zygarde, Pheromosa, and Urshifu-S. It's a lot more consistent than Clefable at checking these mons due to its immense physical bulk, and it is also able to pose a threat in return with thanks to Bulk Up. Finally, Buzzwole, like Melmetal, is one of the best in terms of being a defensive answer to Kyurem-Black. In this case, Buzzwole's massive bulk alongside Bulk Up and Drain Punch are what allow it to handle Kyurem-Black.

#54 (2.848%) > #37 (5.481%)
Rain teams are growing more common, and Barraskewda tends to be a staple thanks to its respectable attacking power in conjunction with its naturally high speed stat, which gets even further boosted by Swift Swim. Flip Turn plays a good part in what Barraskewda does, as it's able to deal decent damage while grabbing momentum in return.

#93 (0.915%) > #40 (4.615%)
Nidoking barely made the cut and is finally OU by usage after a very long time. Landorus-I getting banned opened the door for Nidoking to get used as a strong special attacking Ground-type, and it has been doing very well on that front thanks to its movepool providing solid coverage. It's able to threaten nearly every defensive mon, with Blissey being the lone exception, and it has a solid enough speed tier to threaten slightly faster defensive mons like Heatran and Buzzwole

Fall from OU:

#27 (7.143%) > #44 (3.222%)

With the metagame becoming less centralized around hyper offense, Ditto's time in OU was winding down and it's not terribly surprising that managed to drop right away.

I'll post the usual questions below:

1. What surprised you the most from these stats?
2. Among the mons with increased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see an increase in usage?
3. Among the mons with decreased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see a decrease in usage?
4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
6. How do you feel about the most common offensive mons in the tier?
7. How do you feel about the most common defensive mons in the tier?
8. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
9. What are your favorite mons to use in OU right now?
10. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of the day :)

Also, today officially marks the 1 year anniversary of Sword and Shield! It's been a long and rough year, but it's nice to see that we're in an enjoyable metagame now, and hopefully there's more to enjoy in the future.
loll OMFG my man nidoking actually is in ou joining my main bitch mandibuzz. lets get mew in there as well. As for disappointments, G Zapdos is severely disappointing and I doubt it's gonna stay long at all. I miss raptor :(
 
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Hey all, first time contributing here as I only casually laddered before the latest dlc, but I peaked at 2100ish with screens offense, and 2050+ with full stall and currently leading the ou room tour so I wanted to share my opinions about the meta which really differs than the usual discussions/evaluations I have read in here.
First things first, the only thing that surprises me in usage rate of Tundra cup v3 is the existence of Lando-t instead of blissey in the most used 6 pokemons (zygarde, clefable, toxapex, heatran, lando-t, melmetal) and I believe the usage rate of these mons would be even higher if you look at, say 1900+ in ladder.

Especially after the ban of Naga (this one is at least more justified ) and Lando-I (this one at best is just the result of looking at "theory" over practice) fat mons are so much better than their offensive counterpart, in a hyper offense vs fat matchup, fat can get away with badly misplaying 10 turns in a row. Before I analyze problematic fat mons, I want to analyze offensive ones that are banned, or probably about to be banned in depth and give opinion on why they should only be banned at the same time with the fat ones I mention below and not before.

Kyurem-Black : I will look at Kyurem-B behind the screens since this is the one people claim is problematic, brainless and unstoppable.
Before giving the calculations, people need to understand two/three things because I really don't want to get answers in the lines of "Life orb earth power can kill melmetal in switch in (which even then is not actually true)

1)If you are running screens, it means you spend precious time with one of your mons where opponent do whatever they want and you generally continue the match 5v6 and without momentum. This means, you will most likely give away hazard control to your opponent. If you use something like LO kyub instead of HDB you are basically doomed as the recoil damage from LO, plus the entry hazards will make you wear down so fast.

2)Because screen user, already wastes a mon to set things up and give up momentum, if you trade one of your mons with a sweeper or sometimes even two of your mons, in most scenarios you are winning. Although against Kyub there are so many counterplays which I am gonna mention below that you dont even need to give one (again it is totally okay if you give one away and deal with Kyub, you are totally winning)


Melmetal: This is the most obvious and straightforward answer which one shots Kyub if it is CB even with screens on.
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 147-173 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 68.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-Black through Reflect: 414-488 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ferrothorn : Any pokemon that can spread status actually will do to stop the sweep of kyub but ferro's access to gyro ball makes it nearly impossible for kyub to go forward
+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 180-216 (51.1 - 61.3%) -- approx. 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rain/Swampert , Sand/Tyranitar, Sun/Torkoal : All of this works really similar. Kyurem even in +2, 2 HKO them(max def Torkoal is 3HKO) and they give a status move to render kyub useless. Also Important to mention Kyub needs +2 boosts to outspeed scarfers/weather abusers and +3 to outspeed Barraskewda
Buzzwole : Toxic rocky helmet neutralizes even wingbeat kyub in his tracks.
Heatran : I don't know why this thing is in OU for such a long time but it can also take hits from +1 Kyub, no surprise here.
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 190-224 (49.2 - 58%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Toxapex : Another thing I don't know why it is in OU for such a long time but it can also take a hit from +1 Kyub then toxic/haze and stall screen turns. It also has potential to live a +2 Fusion Bolt which really is insane. Coupled with a ground mon, Kyub suffers.
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 214-252 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 284-336 (93.4 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO



I can move on and list 30 mons that can effectively deal with kyub, but the idea is nearly always the same. When it is working with screens you are not obliged to beat it without giving any mons even tho it is easily possible to do so. U turning to scarfers like pult will also usually work. Furthermore since even in +1 or +2 it doesn't one shot majority of the mons even with the best predict, you can just switch around and wait for it to wear down itself.
I honestly don't see why people cannot deal with Kyub screens as every sane team in existence has more than one answer to him and I dropped him from my team as it becomes a deadweight against people who know what they are doing. Again if you look at the usage stats of 1900+ I am pretty sure this thing is not top 10, top 15 and maybe even top 20.
Ofc I am not mentioning getting rid of screens by defogging, court change, not allowing them to go up etc as they are general strats against screens and not Kyub itself and there are still many more options like phasing.

I tried to couple it with safeguard Klefki(to protect from status) and try to beat full fat/stall with insane timing but if both sides knows what they are doing it is generally impossible. The only thing I like about Kyub in screens offense is it's access to Teravolt, which at least make people think before slapping an unaware mon to survive. And even then things like Quag/Clef survive your +2 Icicle Spear and safeguard doesn't really last long enough

I really don't see how Kyub can be problematic/ban worthy in this meta when I can count countless strats to render it useless on top of my head. If you really let Kyub go to +3 in screens, you are doing something really wrong.

Even with explaining one mon it took me al ot of time and I hope I have time to touch Naga as well, whose ban is at least more reasonable as it has less counterplay but Kyub literally has counterplay in everyteam and banning it before things like zygarde ,pex, heatran,melm, clefable just indicates the hate of offensive mons here. Now the point here is not that Melm needs to be banned necessarily but all of this mons have 500x more value in metagame than Kyub has and if something has to go Kyub definitely needs to wait until they get what they deserve.


Lando-I : Another mon that punished certain fat cores (holy trio of pex clef heatran). It's speed tier is certainly not the best so it had to waste one slot to RP if it want to threaten offensive mons. Gets walled by mandibuzz,cresellia, blissey in%99 of the cases, It isn't bulky with 89-90-80 and definitely needs gravity to cover more things in the meta(Zapdos, Celesteela, Moltres, Skarm etc) (and predict switch/use gravity at the right time). Gravity is also really good to make focus miss an accurate move which has less than %50 of chance to hit twice in a row. I won't go into much detail as it is already banned but both defensive and offensive teams had ways to deal with this. With screens I think it's best set was RP-Gravity- Earth Power- Focus Blast but again it had many counterplays (less than kyub and probably more than naga). This was a strong wall breaker and it is normal for the strongest wall breaker to break fats like pex heatran,clefable. I really don't think this should have been banned

Naga: Again I won't delve into much detail as this thing is already banned and it definitely had less counterplay than Kyub and Lando I. Counterteams I can think on top of my head includes, heatran, av users, trick room, screens, could be revenge killed/prority moves. Mons with absurd amount of spdef like Snorlax also work but I don't count rarely used mons as counterplay. I never experienced any problem against Naga using screens but again, this one is more justified to ban.

Genesect : Screens don't lose to this so I didn't experience a problem, but this is an obvious ban, no qualms here.

Now comes the main purpose of this post, aka the broken fat mons. I will list them in order. But before covering each of them, I want to point out one thing that makes them so ridiculously easy to use and broken is that , even though one mon can beat one of them there is literally no way for that mon to have enough sustain to survive against the rotations of the fat team cuz stat wise these fats are much better than their offensive counterparts.


1) Zygarde: This thing is the definition of broken and should have been banned day1. It really is only comparable to genesect in terms of its effect to the metagame and have too many viable sets. While glare itself is Thunderwave on steroids as it never misses and paralyzes ground types, It's access to the sub-coil/dd combined with glare makes it too threatening. But this set is just scratching the surface with zygarde. While you cannot risk this set zygarde can also run a choice band set, a toxic set to trap/seriously hurt its most commons answers like Buzzwole or just a fat set that takes Draco meteors from a freaking Dragapult (scarf) and survive. It can also tank things like +2 Adamant Blaziken's CC
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 345-406 (82.1 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While glare sub coil makes this look like mini Glaile with hoping to get the boost/para he wants , 108/121/95 on a mon that has access to glare/sub/toxic/coil/dd/good choice band set is simply unhealthy. Probably only true answer it has is Zarude. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes and it is okay to do so, but not banning this day 1 clearly shows a lack of understanding of current meta.

2)Toxapex : This is not a "glue that holds ou together". This is an obviously overpowered mon that lets people get away with misplaying 10 turns straight. While it's access to toxic-t spikes-knock off- regen- scald - haze - baneful bunker is problematic enough it's defensive stats 50-142-132 combined with its typing makes it nearly impossible to kill it. Very few mon can set up on pex since haze has 48 pp, it can pp stall anything it wants. I will just let calculations do the speaking on what this abomination can survive.

+4 252+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 255-300 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (so basically can even haze a +4 rilla/stall grassy terrain)
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 214-252 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Shared this in Kyurem's part before but yeah, can withhold the so called quickban worthy best offensive mons supereffective +1 move
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 176-210 (57.8 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Even one of the most offensive mons with stab effective move isn't able to "touch pex". This basically means, even if you put one of the best offensive threats with effective move against pex, you have the disadvantage cuz Pex can just toxic you and switch to it's unaware partner Clef, while recovering it's health. This should demolish how unhealthy and easy it is to play with this comp.

"Annoying not broken" argument applies to stuff like Ferro which has half the tools Pex has. These stats with this movepool is way too much.



Places 3 and 4 belongs to Clefable and Heatran but I am not sure which one is more problematic so I will start Clef

Clefable : While having a really good typing , decent bulk(considering its typing) what truly makes this scary to face is number of sets it can utilize. While magic guard sets like LO clef and trick sticky barb/flame orb is not used a lot anymore in top ladder, Magic Guard and Unaware offers clef so many sets you can't risk to scout. From trick choice items to Unaware HDB CM to medic/teleport to status moves it can use, she can destroy teams on her own. Unaware CM , makes most sweepers (bar things like Exca) useless, and while they do not require it, they can even run HDB to hide that they are unaware. Fairy typing with that bulk, ensures you are not even getting 2 HKOED by most physical attackers while having the ability to one shot them with a boosted Moonblast. But again the biggest problem of this set is that, the diversity of other sets Clef can take that you cant risk.
As with other mons I will just give a stat of it against boosted Kyurem-b since people think it is a broken offensive threat, Blaziken and a Garchomp with steel coverage.
+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 264-315 (67 - 79.9%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heatran: This one is interesting. While having a 91/106/106 bulk makes it hard to kill, the problematic part is again the moves it get and different sets it can run which can seriously destroy your team. The main problem is that nothing can switch in safely against the combination of magma storm and toxic without getting seriously hurt. Heatran can force a switch against lots of mons, destroy its switch ins, comeback again and repeat the same in 20 turns. If you are running a fat team with recovery this is really easy to do over and over again,and at one point your opponent will mispredict between magma and toxic/ your magma will not miss and you will get a clean kill. Trap kills most of the mons, have good move variety between toxic/taunt/protect/stealth rock and 130 spa for a mon this good is huge. Only opposing air balloon heatran can reliably switch in to this.
Including a calculation of heatran vs again "broken Kyub" which gets stopped by every team in existence

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 127-150 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Melmetal : I don't think this needs much explanation. Beats probably every physical attacker reliably in 1 o 1, with insane hp/attack/def stats. Not many if at all can switch into this safely. Good movepool, can break subs/focus sashes and some even use stuff like AV to beat nearly every mon in 1 v1.


The real problem starts when offensive mons like Lando i that threatens all of the mentioned above gets banned while these fats stay. Rn a fat team can easily recover its hp, counter everything in existence, misplay 10 times and get away with it cuz defensive mons in this tier is much better than its offensive counterparts. On top of my head I can name just say to someone create a team with unaware clef- bliss- pex - buzz/melm, one revengekiller/defogger and one way to beat stallbreaker Heatran, and you have a team that laughs at %99.99 of the meta which is not healthy.

I want to state this politely, the reason why some people (and lately even including me ) agrees/states that smogon rn loves fat way too much and are way too harsh against anything offensive that remotely threatens their core of pex clef etc is the things above. I really cannot believe Kyub which can be stopped by every viable team in existence is probably the first things thats gonna be banned next, when zygarde isnt qbanned day1 /still lives, pex has never been banned, and heatran isn't even mentioned in survey.

Like I said for a balanced meta I see two possible alternatives. Either not banning stuff like Lando that punishes some fat teams or also banning the defensive mons which rn are miles better than offensive ones. Banning an offensive mon just because it has a chance to sweep at +3 even tho it should never really get to +3, is not the way. Hopefully people can take some criticism as I was attacked/accused and bad mouthed for expressing this in ou lobby by people who really have no idea about what's happening in high ladder. Like it is okay to disagree with some points/send calcs/discuss but please do not quote me and write full stall/full fat doesn't exist in top ladder cuz that is just an obvious lie.
Great observations, and thanks for contributing. I'd like to offer a counterpoint to most of your arguments, as I believe discussion is healthy.

:Kyurem-Black: Kyu-B:
Kyu-B doesn't OHKO many things even at +2, but you're tunnel-visioning on screens Kyu-B. Out of all the defensive answers you listed for Kyu-B, being Melmetal, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Swampert, Torkoal, Heatran, and Toxapex, only 1 of them has reliable recovery. This means Kyu-B doesn't have to click DD first, it can hit them on switch in with Icicle Spear/Fusion Bolt and then switch out, leaving them chipped, and it becomes even worse once you realize many of these pokemon don't pack reliable recovery other than leftovers. On a balance team with sufficient longevity and building, this can easily become rinse-and-repeat until the supposed Kyu-B "check" is worn down into a +1 attack range. Toxapex is the one exception, but Pex is 2HKOed after rocks by +0 Fusion Bolt, and considering the chip that Toxapex often takes (taking Garchomp EQ and regenning out), it often leaves Pex in 2HKO or +1 OHKO range even without rocks. The fact that all its reliable checks are easily lured in/worn down are what makes Kyu-B broken, not the fact that it can OHKO everything after a boost or that it can reliably take hits behind screens (which it can).

:Landorus: Lando-I:
As Finchinator said, it is hard to see how one could object to Lando-I being banned. Unlike Kyu-B, it doesn't need a boost to OHKO things, it just OHKOs them anyways. You stated that they are "Walled by Mandibuzz, Cresselia, and Blissey in %99 percent of casees" but you fail to realize that only one of these are reliable: Cresselia fails to really do anything else of note and Blissey is 2HKOed by Focus Blast after minor chip. Sure, Focus Blast misses when you use it, but remember Focus Blast always hits when the opponent uses it, and if your Blissey is dead how are you going to check Lando-I? Lando-I is even more threatening under Gravity, as it makes its Focus blasts nearly 100% accurate and it allows it to hit the pokemon that could otherwise tank it, such as Corviknight and Zapdos (you listed more). It doesn't need Rock Polish to threaten offense, as it can use a Teleport or slow-Uturner to get in and it pretty much OHKOs anything once it does get in. Even using Spdef Mandibuzz, a supposed perfect check, leaves you open to many of Lando-I's coverage options:
4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 216-255 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz in Sand: 213-252 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 187-220 (44.1 - 51.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO (2HKO after chip)
Lando-I forces an extremely small pool of shaky defensive answers on every team (think Pex-Clef-Tran but it's a different core). Even with these pokemon on your team, you are still open to many coverage options that Lando-I often runs. This ban is and was deserved, and I find the notion that it was balanced ridiculous.

If you wanna threatend Clef-Pex-Tran cores, use Lando-I Jr. AKA Nidoking. Nidoking is not gonna be banned anytime soon but it still threatens these cores. Have fun.

:Zygarde: Zygarde:
Yes it's broken but it's weird to state that it should've been banned day 1 when the Sub-Coil-Glare set didn't become widely used until multiple days in. Not gonna argue about this any longer because it's obvious it is broken anyways, the reason it isn't being banned now is because the council is waiting for the results of the OU Playerbase Survey, and Finch will probably address this comment anyways.

:Toxapex: Toxapex:
You give calcs for unboosted Garchomp EQ. want some other calcs?
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 356-422 (117.1 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 350-414 (115.1 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 296-350 (97.3 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 276-328 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 338-402 (111.1 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 216-254 (71 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Yea, lots of these look like OHKOs after a boost, or unboosted 2HKOs, meaning Pex can't switch in. Switch in on a boost, and get OHKOed. Switch in on an attack, and get 2HKOed. Pex in no way stonewalls the entirety of the metagame. Lots of OU pokemon can reliably switch in to and/or break Pex. Sorry to ruin your stall parade.

:Clefable: Clefable:
How does this mon destroy teams on its own when "every team has a Clef-Pex-Tran core." Answer: it doesn't. CM Clef is seriously lacking in the offense departement and fails to threaten a huge amount of the metagame. The fact that it is forced to use only one coverage move means that it loses to every steel type (Thunderbolt) or it loses to Heatran, Toxapex, or Nidoking (Flamethrower). It's not even broken in defensive capabilities, as a serious amount of pokemon can break through it. Going through the OU list, the only ones that can't are Buzzwole, Dragonite, Garchomp (sometimes), Landorus-T, and Zygarde. Compared to how many OU threats there actually are.

:Heatran: Heatran:
Heatran does force switches but in no way does it kill anything that switches in. Many teams have multiple ways to reliably switch in to Tran, including but not limited to Moltres, Tapu Fini, Zygarde, Dragonite, Swampert, Slowbro, Slowking, opposing Tran, Porygon2, Pelipper, and Latios. Trap Tran definitely is a threat in this metagame, but it has many switch-ins that are often on teams anyways due to Blaziken having a similar offensive profile. Defensively, it is easily chipped down as its only form of recovery is leftovers, and it often can't carry protect due to the fact that Trapping sets have to have Magma Storm - Taunt - Earth Power and it is often also a team's rocker. Heatran also doesn't stop Kyu-B, as Fusion bolt is dealing around 33% and Kyu-B switches out, as well as it gets eviscerated by the rare Earth Power Kyu-B.

:Melmetal: Melmetal:
Most people's view on this thing is that it is nearly broken but not quite. Most Rocky Helmet / Moltres users deal with it good enough to the point where it's not a cut-and-dry quickban candidate as you would suggest. Nothing much more to say.

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Let's play a fun game, round 2. I quote the uninformed opinion and then respond with the reality of the situation. Let's begin.
The real problem starts when offensive mons like Lando i that threatens all of the mentioned above gets banned while these fats stay.
Lando-I didn't just threaten all of the above, it threatened everything. It forced 1 of 3 pokemon on every team, and each were still open to getting 2HKOed by its commonly run coverage options. It was impossible to be safe against this monster in the long run but in order to have any sort of semblance of safety was to heavily restrict teambuilding anyways. I'm sorry, but just because it doesn't 6-0 screens teams doesn't mean its not broken.

On top of my head I can name just say to someone create a team with unaware clef- bliss- pex - buzz/melm, one revengekiller/defogger and one way to beat stallbreaker Heatran, and you have a team that laughs at %99.99 of the meta which is not healthy.
As an experienced stall player myself I can see multiple flaws with this team, assuming Buzzwole, since Unaware clef deals with Melmetal defensively anyways.
1. Taunt-Cm Tapu Fini
2. Choice Specs Latios
3. Fighting Move Nidoking
4. Rising Voltage Regieleki
5. Future Sight + CB Zygarde / Urshifu / Gapdos / Garchomp / Cinderace any other mon that is supposedly beat by Buzzwole
6. LO Dracozolt in Sand
7. Toxic Zygarde
Attempting to cover all of these would detract from your ability to force progress, which would weakend your matchup versus Balance teams in the long run. That type of team, which I've built before, laughs at Screens HO, which is obviously your favorite playstyle, but against balance it often loses. Sorry to break it to you.

way too harsh against anything offensive that remotely threatens their core of pex clef etc is the things above.
This is until you realize Choice Specs Magnemite isn't banned from OU. Oops!

I really cannot believe Kyub which can be stopped by every viable team in existence is probably the first things thats gonna be banned next,
It's stopped by every viable team once, but in a balance setting it can easily run over many of its supposed "checks." I addressed this above.

when zygarde isnt qbanned day1
It isn't qbanned day 1 because A: Qbanning things day 1 is ridiculous B: Because Genesect and Naganadel were much more OP and deserved to be qbed first and C: Because it wasn't broken until later on when the metagame became more defensive and Sub-Coil-Glare sets started popping up everywhere.

pex has never been banned
It was going to be banned in DLC1 if darn gamefreak didn't release a DLC before we had the time to do it.

heatran isn't even mentioned in survey.
Because it has many reliable switch-ins, it easily worn down over the course of a match due to the fact that it doesn't resist many common physical attacks, and Magma storm hits deceivingly weak. Many offensive pokemon can switch in and sub up versus it. Maybe try using balance?

defensive mons which rn are miles better than offensive ones.
I think you fail to realize that defensive pokemon are reactive. A defensive pokemon could wall 99% of every single pokemon, but if the 1% that beat it are the ones that are viable in OU, that pokemon will be bad. Defensive pokemon are only around because they check/counter offensive threats. If the meta devolves to stall, that usually means that the only way to reliably cover everything defensively is by using a full team of 6 defensive pokemon, because any attempt to condense it into 3 for a balance team would just leave you 6-0d by other threats. Of course, you could just use a Hyper Offensive team, which you do, but then you're just giving up. You're just not covering anything defensively and you're just gonna accept that every time pokemon A comes in it gets 1-2 kills. Defensive pokemon are good because of the offensive pokemon. If a defensive pokemon is super common, that's because it can defensively cover many offensive threats, not because it 6-0s teams by itself.

Banning an offensive mon just because it has a chance to sweep at +3 even tho it should never really get to +3, is not the way.
This is the crux of my problems with your arguments. You are looking at everything from the perspective of an HO user: pokemon sweep = good, pokemon no sweep = bad. A pokemon doesn't need to sweep the entire opposing team to be banworthy. Take a look at Dracovish pre-DLC: it couldn't 6-0 teams by itself because of Seismitoad, but it forced a Seismitoad on every team simply because it existed. Kyu-B does threaten teams with a sweep, yes, but it also threatens teams due to the fact that it forces its check on to every team. It also forces its opposing check to come in every time it is in, lest it gets to +3 and sweeps. Once it is in against its checks, it doesn't need to set up on them. It can hit them with a Fusion Bolt/Icicle Spear and then switch out, leaving the opposing "check" chipped and possibly in range of a +1 Fusion Bolt later on in the game. The fact that your go-to way to make Kyu-B work was Safeguard Mew really demonstrates my point: you should try balance sometime. Games don't need to end within 20 turns.

TL;DR: Just because a pokemon can't immediately set up and sweep a team doesn't mean its not broken. Just because a defensive pokemon can stay in against a super effective hit and survive doesn't mean it is broken. Just because a defensive pokemon is hard to deal with for HO teams doesn't mean it's broken.

Edit:
Like it is okay to disagree with some points/send calcs/discuss
Likewise
 
Hey all, first time contributing here as I only casually laddered before the latest dlc, but I peaked at 2100ish with screens offense, and 2050+ with full stall and currently leading the ou room tour so I wanted to share my opinions about the meta which really differs than the usual discussions/evaluations I have read in here.
First things first, the only thing that surprises me in usage rate of Tundra cup v3 is the existence of Lando-t instead of blissey in the most used 6 pokemons (zygarde, clefable, toxapex, heatran, lando-t, melmetal) and I believe the usage rate of these mons would be even higher if you look at, say 1900+ in ladder.

Especially after the ban of Naga (this one is at least more justified ) and Lando-I (this one at best is just the result of looking at "theory" over practice) fat mons are so much better than their offensive counterpart, in a hyper offense vs fat matchup, fat can get away with badly misplaying 10 turns in a row. Before I analyze problematic fat mons, I want to analyze offensive ones that are banned, or probably about to be banned in depth and give opinion on why they should only be banned at the same time with the fat ones I mention below and not before.

Kyurem-Black : I will look at Kyurem-B behind the screens since this is the one people claim is problematic, brainless and unstoppable.
Before giving the calculations, people need to understand two/three things because I really don't want to get answers in the lines of "Life orb earth power can kill melmetal in switch in (which even then is not actually true)

1)If you are running screens, it means you spend precious time with one of your mons where opponent do whatever they want and you generally continue the match 5v6 and without momentum. This means, you will most likely give away hazard control to your opponent. If you use something like LO kyub instead of HDB you are basically doomed as the recoil damage from LO, plus the entry hazards will make you wear down so fast.

2)Because screen user, already wastes a mon to set things up and give up momentum, if you trade one of your mons with a sweeper or sometimes even two of your mons, in most scenarios you are winning. Although against Kyub there are so many counterplays which I am gonna mention below that you dont even need to give one (again it is totally okay if you give one away and deal with Kyub, you are totally winning)


Melmetal: This is the most obvious and straightforward answer which one shots Kyub if it is CB even with screens on.
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 147-173 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 68.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-Black through Reflect: 414-488 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ferrothorn : Any pokemon that can spread status actually will do to stop the sweep of kyub but ferro's access to gyro ball makes it nearly impossible for kyub to go forward
+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 180-216 (51.1 - 61.3%) -- approx. 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rain/Swampert , Sand/Tyranitar, Sun/Torkoal : All of this works really similar. Kyurem even in +2, 2 HKO them(max def Torkoal is 3HKO) and they give a status move to render kyub useless. Also Important to mention Kyub needs +2 boosts to outspeed scarfers/weather abusers and +3 to outspeed Barraskewda
Buzzwole : Toxic rocky helmet neutralizes even wingbeat kyub in his tracks.
Heatran : I don't know why this thing is in OU for such a long time but it can also take hits from +1 Kyub, no surprise here.
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 190-224 (49.2 - 58%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Toxapex : Another thing I don't know why it is in OU for such a long time but it can also take a hit from +1 Kyub then toxic/haze and stall screen turns. It also has potential to live a +2 Fusion Bolt which really is insane. Coupled with a ground mon, Kyub suffers.
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 214-252 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 284-336 (93.4 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO



I can move on and list 30 mons that can effectively deal with kyub, but the idea is nearly always the same. When it is working with screens you are not obliged to beat it without giving any mons even tho it is easily possible to do so. U turning to scarfers like pult will also usually work. Furthermore since even in +1 or +2 it doesn't one shot majority of the mons even with the best predict, you can just switch around and wait for it to wear down itself.
I honestly don't see why people cannot deal with Kyub screens as every sane team in existence has more than one answer to him and I dropped him from my team as it becomes a deadweight against people who know what they are doing. Again if you look at the usage stats of 1900+ I am pretty sure this thing is not top 10, top 15 and maybe even top 20.
Ofc I am not mentioning getting rid of screens by defogging, court change, not allowing them to go up etc as they are general strats against screens and not Kyub itself and there are still many more options like phasing.

I tried to couple it with safeguard Klefki(to protect from status) and try to beat full fat/stall with insane timing but if both sides knows what they are doing it is generally impossible. The only thing I like about Kyub in screens offense is it's access to Teravolt, which at least make people think before slapping an unaware mon to survive. And even then things like Quag/Clef survive your +2 Icicle Spear and safeguard doesn't really last long enough

I really don't see how Kyub can be problematic/ban worthy in this meta when I can count countless strats to render it useless on top of my head. If you really let Kyub go to +3 in screens, you are doing something really wrong.

Even with explaining one mon it took me al ot of time and I hope I have time to touch Naga as well, whose ban is at least more reasonable as it has less counterplay but Kyub literally has counterplay in everyteam and banning it before things like zygarde ,pex, heatran,melm, clefable just indicates the hate of offensive mons here. Now the point here is not that Melm needs to be banned necessarily but all of this mons have 500x more value in metagame than Kyub has and if something has to go Kyub definitely needs to wait until they get what they deserve.
I would like to point out a few flaws in your arguments.
First is the assumption that many of the Pokemon you listed (besides Toxapex (and I don’t even want to begin to make a post about how you would think Toxapex of all Pokemon isn’t OU worthy) oh and +1 Fusion Bolt still nearly OHKOs so Pex needs to be at near full health to counter it) are all going to be 100% healthy through out a match, which is extremely unrealistic outside of extremely early Dragon Dances.
For instance, Melmetal may be able to tank multiple Fusion Bolts, but since you’re using CB Melmetal, you have to rely on a Rillaboom partner or a Wish Passer to recover any of its health. With hazards support, Melmetal would require to be more than:
-49.1% with simply 1 layer of Spikes
-53.27% against 2 layers of Spikes
-61.6% against 3 layers of Spikes
-67.85% with 3 layers of Spikes and Rocks
Unless you have Regenerator (Nothing resisting both Icicle Spear and Fusion Bolt), or a recovery move (Also pretty lacking in options, and it isn’t a guarantee that you’ll always be healthy enough).
Let us also not forget that Kyurem-B often runs Heavy Duty-Boots, so firing off some repeated attacks in a game before setting up is a valid strategy a Kyurem-B player can use.
Really, the only Pokemon that could be up to the task of constantly walling Kyurem-B is Avalugg, the likes of which is easily shut down by the incredibly common Urshifu-S, and only really roars it out.
Edit: I actually haven't realized that Avalugg is bulky enough to tank a CB Close Combat from Urshifu, has Iron Defense for Urishifu, and also has Body Press too.

Secondly, spreading status absolutely do not work because Kyurem-B runs Substitute, blocking every single status move besides Infiltrator, which again, almost no Pokemon with that ability likes switching in. Substitute also really changes how those checks beat Kyurem-B.
All those defensive Pokemon that rely on status to ruin a Kyurem-B are too weak to break Kyurem-B’s Sub most of the time. Substitute also allows Kyurem-B to tank anything besides a CB DIB once, then lets Kyurem-B fire off a Fusion Bolt or Icicle Spear against those offensive Weather Abuser.

Thirdly, those offensive checks you mentioned are not switching into its attacks at all. Unless you sack something, that Barraskewda isn’t coming in on a Kyurem-B. Neither will Scarf Dragapult. Even if they get lucky and Kyurem-B set up Dragon Dance during weather (which is relying on your opponent to make mistakes), Kyurem-B can just easily switch into one of its teammates without much lose since Kyurem-B is bulky and has Boots to ignore hazards.

Fourth, a lot of what you said could also apply to already established Ubers. And that is only slightly exagerated.
Having trouble with Calyrex-S?
Just use SpD Tyranitar, Blissey, weather abusers, fully defensive Heatran, status it, use Choice Scarf, or use Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch/Grassy Glide.
Just ignore that Calyrex-S has ways around these Pokemon, has teammates, and how you would realistically bring in a Choice Scarf Gengar on a Calyrex-S.
Yeah, this is exaggerated, but honestly not by much considering Ubers commonly uses Pokemon from lower tiers to check actual Uber Pokemon, including Calyrex-S.

Let us also not forget that, while Dragon Dance is its best set, it’s not the only set it can run, making it more ambiguous and harder to actually counter. That Kyurem-B could very well be a lure mixed LO attacker, where that Melmetal is instead just food for Kyurem-B’s Earthpower or that Toxapex falls to a Freeze-Dry. Or it could be Choice Band/Specs, firing off incredibly strong Physical and Special Attacks, or both since it’s 170 Atk is incredibly strong while its 120 SpA is definitely fearsome.

Also, with screens, it’s only half true. For defensive screen setters, it is incredibly easy to just defog them away since nothing gets threatened by an unboosted Cresselia or Klefki. Offensive screensets on the other hand don’t have this problem. Regieleki is incredibly scary to face head on thanks to having Transitor as an ability, and even has Explosion to prevent Defog from blowing away your screens. Or Dragapult (underrated screens user btw), which can drop a Draco Meteor on non-fairies and non-steels or U-turn out into a defiant user to punish Defog.
 
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Speaking of unbans, do you think Arena Trap is still too much for OU / uncompetitive ?
I do think there seems to be more counterplay to it than there was pre DLC, and that Arena Trap could help to balance some threats.

I would like to start with a few observations that lead me to think there is now counterplay to Dugtrio:
More Pokemons outspeed it.
Without speed boost: Pheromosa, Dragapult, Spectrier, Tapu Koko, Tornadus-T.
With speed boost (not counting Choice Scarf): Excadrill, Barraskewda, Brasegali, Magearna, Volcarona, Kyurem-B, Zygarde, Kingdra, Kartana.
Some defensive Pokemons got a way to escape: Teleport.
Those Pokemons are Clefable, Blissey, Slowbro.
Future Sight.
Future Sight is a popular move in this metagame and is a tool that can be used to pressure Dugtrio.

Then, I would like to analyze the top 50 (bar Landorus and Ditto) from the November usage stats.
Let's see which threats Dugtrio could potentially trap and which Pokemons are safe:

Pokemons that can not get trapped (19/48)=40%
Those Pokemons are always 100% safe against Arena Trap.
:Landorus-Therian: :Spectrier: :Pheromosa: :Zapdos: :Buzzwole: :Mandibuzz: :Pelipper: :Rillaboom: :Latios: :Dragapult: :Moltres: :Zapdos-Galar: :Tornadus-Therian: :Corviknight: :Blaziken: :Dragonite: :Celesteela: :Aegislash: :Zarude: (with Bulk Up + Jungle Healing)

Pokemons that can get trapped but have counterplay (15/48)=30%
Those Pokemons can only be trapped under certain circumstances. Some will require a prediction (double switch into Dugtrio), some will require to be weakened enough, some will depend on the set.
:Zygarde: (only Choice Band can be trapped) :Clefable: (Teleport) :Magearna: (Shift Gear, Iron Defense) :Kyurem-Black: (Dragon Dance) :Cinderace: (Bulk Up, Sucker Punch) :Regieleki: (can Explode, lol) :Excadrill: (Rapid Spin, Sand Rush) :Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: (Aqua Jet if not Choice Band locked) :Garchomp: (Scale Shot) :Blissey: (Teleport) :Slowbro: / :Slowking: (Teleport) :Tapu Koko: (U-Turn, outspeeds) :Barraskewda: (outspeeds most of the time) :Scizor: (Bullet Punch)

Pokemons that are trapped (14/48)=30%
Some still need to be weakened before they can get trapped (7/14):
:Urshifu: (should be careful to Sucker Punch / Bulk Up) :Swampert: :Ferrothorn: (not particularly easy to trap) :Tapu Fini: :Kartana: (unless it is scarfed) :Hippowdon: :Hatterene:
Those Pokemons are truly Dugtrio food (7/14):
:Heatran: :Melmetal: :Toxapex: :Tyranitar: :Nidoking: :Tapu Lele: :Shuckle:

I tried to rank the top 50 threats as accurately as possible, obvisously some might be debatable.
Honestly, from that perspective, I think we are far from a Pokemon that is impossible to play around and totally uncompetitive.
Don't get me wrong however, it would probably still be extremely good, particularly against Heatran, Toxapex, Melmetal, Tyranitar, Tapu Lele and Nidoking.

What would the benefits be ?
Dugtrio is a tool that can be used to nerf Pokemons that have few answers / can be seen as "annoying" or suspect material: Clefable, Magearna, Cinderace, Regieleki, Urshifu, Heatran, Melmetal, Toxapex for instance.
It can be used in any playstyle.

Dugtrio shortens games. It punishes Wish Passing, Regenerator cores and more generally, switches. That is an ability we lost with Pursuit being an unavailable move.
I do think this is an important point because OU games being too long (depending on the match up) is the number one complaint. Stall is one of the reason of course, but we could also see that happen in the balanced vs. balanced match up, featuring Wish Pass Clefable vs. Wish Pass Clefable in 200+ turns shows (that was DLC 1 if I remember correctly).
In a metagame where Dugtrio is allowed, that should not happen. You will eventually punish the Clefable switch in and make progress.

tl; dr again not saying Arena Trap is not ban material. Just thought that would be interesting to discuss considering things have changed.
 
Kyurem-Black @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 56 HP / 200 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Fusion Bolt
- Dual Wingbeat


So kyurem black, it has dual wingbeat and that means buzzwole that one presumed check is just another victim to kyurem black, and that leaves us solely with melemetal
 
Near universal trapping itself is simply uncompetitive. It removes a key aspect of play which is switching and invalidates so many mons from it. People keeping having this idea that dugtrio helps beat stall when in reality it’s used a lot on stall to help trap and remove the threats to them. Trapping influenced what Pokémon were used, during the tournament that was going on at that time most of the mons used were ones to not get trapped by arena trap. It just seems unproductive that people are still thinking about introducing an unhealthy element to the meta to trap mons they still perceive as unhealthy when they are not even close to busted.
 
:Clefable: Clefable:
How does this mon destroy teams on its own when "every team has a Clef-Pex-Tran core." Answer: it doesn't. CM Clef is seriously lacking in the offense departement and fails to threaten a huge amount of the metagame. The fact that it is forced to use only one coverage move means that it loses to every steel type (Thunderbolt) or it loses to Heatran, Toxapex, or Nidoking (Flamethrower). It's not even broken in defensive capabilities, as a serious amount of pokemon can break through it. Going through the OU list, the only ones that can't are Buzzwole, Dragonite, Garchomp (sometimes), Landorus-T, and Zygarde. Compared to how many OU threats there actually are.
First of all, nice post, I agree with a lot of the things you say here. Even for the things that I don't or am not as strong towards, you were eloquent and made it easy to understand. As you said, discussion is important, and I personally think you underrate Clefable pretty heavily here.
I'd like to preface this by saying I wrote almost half of this before realizing Prethia called for a ban on the mon, which I do not agree with. Imo non of the pokemon are that they mentioned are ban worthy, I just thought you were saying Clef is overrated or bad or something. To not make my effort go to waste, I'm gonna finish my defense of Clef. I think the mon is not ban worthy, big misunderstanding my bad.
Clefable adds a lot to a match that I think is overlooked. With that being said, let's talk about the things I agree with first. CM Clefable, in the set you're describing, I would agree is matchup dependent in the sense that depending on your coverage move, either Toxapex/Heatran walls it or every steel type walls it. With that being said, I don't really like that perspective. I think it's very easy to add a pokemon like Tapu Koko or Lando-T that healthily deal with 1 or all of these threats. To take a more polarizing example from gen 7 into account, acid armor CM recover stored power Reuniclus is a great wincon if the opponent does not have a dark type: which utterly shuts it down. With that being said, pokemon such as Ash-Gren were some of the most common in the tier. To combat this, these Reuniclus teams could be paired with pokemon like MLop or (set dependent) Magearna that easily deal with dark types. I would say Clefable has the added distinction of being less polarizing since it isn't completely shut down by 1 type (although I have seen Heal Bell/Soft Boiled/CM/Stored Power Clef before, that's uncommon), and it also has some other sets that it can very feasibly run. Wish + teleport is one of the greatest ways to keep certain pokemon alive that don't normally get longevity (one of my favorite wish receivers is Ferrothorn, but other common steel types like Melmetal work wonders as well, and this is just scraping the surface). I don't think I need to convince anyone about the wonders of wish teleport. I really like trick sticky barb as well. As the Crown Tundra meta becomes more complete, I personally think trick is underutilized on all pokemon. From my experience, being able to trick a scarf a Rotom form, or Togekiss, or especially a flame orb or sticky barb from Clefable has not dwindled in usefulness for me. Item displacement is still really good even if it is not as good as pre-isle/crown meta. Not to mention that this set also has stealth rock, which is a very neat addition in my opinion. The utility Clef provides to the metagame cannot be overstated, but I think it is a healthy impact. The diversity of the sets is not broken, it really helps certain teamstyles work. I just learned that Prethia called for a ban on this mon which I personally cannot agree with, despite it probably being top 3-5 in the tier. It's really good, but it's not unhealthy no matter how much I or anyone else complains about it IMO. Remember, feel free to tell me why I'm an idiot, whether it's musique or anyone else.
Finally, I'd like to say that Clefable has a very cool aspect: it is really difficult to derive what set a Clefable is running based on the team preview. Most Clefable builds fit on all BO->balance teams->semistall teams, and especially with more than 1 pokemon that could be rocks, it becomes quite difficult to prepare for it at team preview. Just something I thought of last minute. Anyway, enjoy! Remember, tell me why I'm wrong haha!
 
First of all, nice post, I agree with a lot of the things you say here. Even for the things that I don't or am not as strong towards, you were eloquent and made it easy to understand. As you said, discussion is important, and I personally think you underrate Clefable pretty heavily here.
I'd like to preface this by saying I wrote almost half of this before realizing Prethia called for a ban on the mon, which I do not agree with. Imo non of the pokemon are that they mentioned are ban worthy, I just thought you were saying Clef is overrated or bad or something. To not make my effort go to waste, I'm gonna finish my defense of Clef. I think the mon is not ban worthy, big misunderstanding my bad.
Clefable adds a lot to a match that I think is overlooked. With that being said, let's talk about the things I agree with first. CM Clefable, in the set you're describing, I would agree is matchup dependent in the sense that depending on your coverage move, either Toxapex/Heatran walls it or every steel type walls it. With that being said, I don't really like that perspective. I think it's very easy to add a pokemon like Tapu Koko or Lando-T that healthily deal with 1 or all of these threats. To take a more polarizing example from gen 7 into account, acid armor CM recover stored power Reuniclus is a great wincon if the opponent does not have a dark type: which utterly shuts it down. With that being said, pokemon such as Ash-Gren were some of the most common in the tier. To combat this, these Reuniclus teams could be paired with pokemon like MLop or (set dependent) Magearna that easily deal with dark types. I would say Clefable has the added distinction of being less polarizing since it isn't completely shut down by 1 type (although I have seen Heal Bell/Soft Boiled/CM/Stored Power Clef before, that's uncommon), and it also has some other sets that it can very feasibly run. Wish + teleport is one of the greatest ways to keep certain pokemon alive that don't normally get longevity (one of my favorite wish receivers is Ferrothorn, but other common steel types like Melmetal work wonders as well, and this is just scraping the surface). I don't think I need to convince anyone about the wonders of wish teleport. I really like trick sticky barb as well. As the Crown Tundra meta becomes more complete, I personally think trick is underutilized on all pokemon. From my experience, being able to trick a scarf a Rotom form, or Togekiss, or especially a flame orb or sticky barb from Clefable has not dwindled in usefulness for me. Item displacement is still really good even if it is not as good as pre-isle/crown meta. Not to mention that this set also has stealth rock, which is a very neat addition in my opinion. The utility Clef provides to the metagame cannot be overstated, but I think it is a healthy impact. The diversity of the sets is not broken, it really helps certain teamstyles work. I just learned that Prethia called for a ban on this mon which I personally cannot agree with, despite it probably being top 3-5 in the tier. It's really good, but it's not unhealthy no matter how much I or anyone else complains about it IMO. Remember, feel free to tell me why I'm an idiot, whether it's musique or anyone else.
Finally, I'd like to say that Clefable has a very cool aspect: it is really difficult to derive what set a Clefable is running based on the team preview. Most Clefable builds fit on all BO->balance teams->semistall teams, and especially with more than 1 pokemon that could be rocks, it becomes quite difficult to prepare for it at team preview. Just something I thought of last minute. Anyway, enjoy! Remember, tell me why I'm wrong haha!
My point exactly. Prethia suggested that Clefable was OP because it walls everything defensively and beats everything offensively with CM. This is not the case, as I previously explained. In fact, Clefable doesn't really want to wall things and take hits. This is because, in a vacuum, Clefable is a support behemoth. Wish+Teleport is ridiculously powerful support and it has many other great options like Stealth Rock, Aromatherapy, Thunder Wave, and Knock Off. However, ever since DLC1, Clef has changed. No longer could it get away with Wishport, as its defensive profile is absolutely required to deal with threats like Zygarde and Urshifu. Without threats such as these 2, Clefable would be able to run Wishport and could arguably be very broken due to how it lets everything have incredible longevity (think pre-dlc). However, in the current meta running Wishport Clefable means you can't run Defensive Clefable, which leaves you open to threats such as the aforementioned Zygarde and Urshifu. This opportunity cost is what makes Wishport subpar in the meta, but in the future Clefable could become problematic if these threats were to leave.
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
True a lot of Pokemon threaten Diggy but the thing with Arena Trap Diggy is that it can come in whenever it wants and kill whoever that's in front of it. I mean, I know, it can't kill everything, and it's frail as hell, but through some Voltturn/Teleport support it can come on and just smash whoever's in front of it assuming the Pokemon in front of it is smashable (no way it is gonna stay in with Buzzwole on the other side or something). Its presence discourage Pokemon from coming in for the fear of never being able to get back out. I mean, I would be overjoyed if there was a concrete way to wipe Heatran and Toxapex right off the map, but this is obviously not the way to do it.

On a side note, DLC1 OU exists, so maybe ppl would consider banning Pex from DLC1 OU. That would be really, really (really really really) nice.
 
Dugtrio shortens games. It punishes Wish Passing, Regenerator cores and more generally, switches. That is an ability we lost with Pursuit being an unavailable move.
I do think this is an important point because OU games being too long (depending on the match up) is the number one complaint. Stall is one of the reason of course, but we could also see that happen in the balanced vs. balanced match up, featuring Wish Pass Clefable vs. Wish Pass Clefable in 200+ turns shows (that was DLC 1 if I remember correctly).
In a metagame where Dugtrio is allowed, that should not happen. You will eventually punish the Clefable switch in and make progress.
I disagree with most of your post, but I want to highlight this point because it seems especially egregious. I don't think you can justify resuspecting an ability that was generally agreed to be broken with this point - even if it would be true (which I'd disagree with personally). While I'm sure most people prefer their games to be within the 20-50 turn region (which I've noticed is pretty normal in the current game), it's far from a problem for them to exceed that. In fact, many players like their games to go longer; throwing them under the bus for the ones who want them to be short is unfair, especially without any sort of evidence that this is what most players want.

It's also fairly disconnected from the reality of the meta; I can count on one hand the amount of games I've had that have exceeded 100 turns and I mainly play balance, and I'm sure looking at tournament results will be similar. In fact, stall is very uncommon right now and is generally considered niche.

Trying to force a metagame into a certain mold is not only something that smogon council shouldn't be doing, but it also requires a huge amount of meddling that would go against the desires of most players. Gen 8 is somewhat naturally biased towards balance and bulkier teams, thanks to Boots lowering the amount of chip damage, pursuit trapping being impossible and the removal of Z-moves meaning walls are harder to break than before. This is just a fact of the mechanics of the generation. While removing things like boots, pex, clef, etc. would likely make for a faster and more offensive meta, they're also hard sells, and doing so for the sole purpose of making a faster meta would be ridiculous. Re-adding dugtrio for this purpose, even if it would be effective (and it wouldn't be), would be even worse - just a case of broken checking broken.
 
True a lot of Pokemon threaten Diggy but the thing with Arena Trap Diggy is that it can come in whenever it wants and kill whoever that's in front of it. I mean, I know, it can't kill everything, and it's frail as hell, but through some Voltturn/Teleport support it can come on and just smash whoever's in front of it assuming the Pokemon in front of it is smashable (no way it is gonna stay in with Buzzwole on the other side or something). Its presence discourage Pokemon from coming in for the fear of never being able to get back out. I mean, I would be overjoyed if there was a concrete way to wipe Heatran and Toxapex right off the map, but this is obviously not the way to do it.

On a side note, DLC1 OU exists, so maybe ppl would consider banning Pex from DLC1 OU. That would be really, really (really really really) nice.
Side note: "Diggy" is the woke buff bunny that beats balance (actually stall but balance starts with a b). "Duggy" is the broke broken tryhard uncompetitive trapper that should be banned every generation Arena Trap is in except ADV.

Also if there was no DLC2, then Urshifu and Pex would likely be banned from DLC1 via suspect test. The only reason they aren't is because DLC2 happened.
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
Side note: "Diggy" is the woke buff bunny that beats balance (actually stall but balance starts with a b). "Duggy" is the broke broken tryhard uncompetitive trapper that should be banned every generation Arena Trap is in except ADV.

Also if there was no DLC2, then Urshifu and Pex would likely be banned from DLC1 via suspect test. The only reason they aren't is because DLC2 happened.
Ah ok. Forgot that thing existed.

Also Urshifu and Pex being gone is great news. Too bad it never happened.
 
Near universal trapping itself is simply uncompetitive. It removes a key aspect of play which is switching and invalidates so many mons from it. People keeping having this idea that dugtrio helps beat stall when in reality it’s used a lot on stall to help trap and remove the threats to them. Trapping influenced what Pokémon were used, during the tournament that was going on at that time most of the mons used were ones to not get trapped by arena trap. It just seems unproductive that people are still thinking about introducing an unhealthy element to the meta to trap mons they still perceive as unhealthy when they are not even close to busted.
Not in favor of unbanning Arena Trap, but I've always thought "Uncompetitive" is a bad adjective to describe why it's banned (and you're far from the first person on Smogon I've seen use it to describe Arena Trap). I think of "Uncompetitive" as things like Evasion boosting moves, 30% accurate OHKO moves, Moody, Swagger, etc. that take the skill out of the game and boil it down to basically luck. It's also hard to argue that switching is a fundamental component of the game (and thus preventing switching is inherently uncompetitive) when GameFreak included abilities (Shadow Tag, Magnet Pull, Arena Trap) and moves (Magma Storm, Whirlpool, Bind, Block, Sand Tomb, Mean Look, Pursuit, etc.) to prevent/punish switching as well as items (Shed Shell, Grip Claw) that are also intended to be relevant to these strategies; one could even go as far to say that hazards are intended to punish switching as well (but that's besides the point). Obviously, we'd both agree that what separates Arena Trap from the aforementioned examples (such as Magnet Pull) is the sheer amount of pokemon that can be trapped, which is why I'd argue it's overpowered opposed to uncompetitive. It's not like you can't see Dugtrio in team preview or that it's some unlucky surprise your Heatran got trapped.
In my mind, what separates double-switching/somehow bringing Dugtrio in safely to face Heatran (for example) opposed to doing the same thing except with a wallbreaker like Crawdaunt or setup sweeper like Zygarde (who both presumably also take advantage of Heatran) is that Dugtrio guarantees the removal of Heatran, while the opposing player at a minimum gets to pick what to sac in the latter cases, assuming they can't wall the said threat. In other words, somehow bringing Dugtrio in to take advantage of the opponent's pokemon isn't unlike double-switching in a wallbreaker or setup sweeper also intended to take advantage of it, it's just that Dugtrio guarantees the removal of a specific threat (which like you said can be taken advantage of such as stall teams removing the opponent's main stallbreaker) while the other examples give the opponent more options. Now, perhaps the removal of other options is why you might say Arena Trap is uncompetitive, but I disagree for two reasons: 1) The "removal of other options" is literally switching out in this case, and I think GameFreak clearly intended to make preventing/punishing switches part of the game as discussed earlier and 2) Let's say your opponent gets a kill with Heatran, allowing you to eliminate it with Dugtrio so your stall team/scarf katana etc. can easily win; how is this significantly different from my opponent letting their Ferrothorn take heavy damage if it's their only option to stop my Barraskewda from sweeping their team, but doing so chips their Ferrothorn enough to where my swords dance Scizor is guaranteed to sweep? In both cases, the opponent is "checkmated" and must do something to prevent themselves from losing only to guarantee losing another way (Not a perfect analogy, but I'm making the assumption that an opponent who chose to kill something with their Heatran knew it would be revenged by Duggy, but chose to do so anyways because they believed it was their best chance at winning). My point is, that these examples are significantly different, but not because Arena Trap relies on luck or is uncompetitive, but because Arena Trap is too good at greatly punishing opponents when you correctly predict the double-switch or force them to get a kill with something important that Dugtrio can trap; thus, Arena Trap is overpowered.

Of course, one could also argue that something that is "overpowered" is also "uncompetitive" in the sense that there's no reason not to use it, it's too good for the tier, games will become more competitive/reliant on skill without it, etc. However, under this logic literally anything that is banned could be called "uncompetitive" and I don't think anyone would make that argument.

My point of this is not to nitpick you or anyone else for fun, but I don't like when people use an argument along the lines of "Arena Trap is simply uncompetitive and invalidates a fundamental/key aspect of pokemon" because it attempts to frame the discussion in a way that makes it impossible to argue against Arena Trap being banned; also, the fact that another trapping ability, Magnet Pull, is not banned makes no sense if one views trapping as simply uncompetitive and against the fundamentals of the game. Instead, I think it makes more sense to argue that Arena Trap is overpowered/broken/too good in order to 1) draw a distinction between banning Arena Trap and Moody (a banned ability that "uncompetitive" fits much more accurately) and 2) explain why Magnet Pull (and even trapping moves) aren't banned. I think this will lead to more productive discussion opposed to (incorrectly) dismissing someone's differing opinions outright (Not to say that Monky25 didn't provide good examples of why Arena Trap is banned after claiming it is uncompetitive, but I am speaking about posters here in general).
 
Not in favor of unbanning Arena Trap, but I've always thought "Uncompetitive" is a bad adjective to describe why it's banned (and you're far from the first person on Smogon I've seen use it to describe Arena Trap). I think of "Uncompetitive" as things like Evasion boosting moves, 30% accurate OHKO moves, Moody, Swagger, etc. that take the skill out of the game and boil it down to basically luck. It's also hard to argue that switching is a fundamental component of the game (and thus preventing switching is inherently uncompetitive) when GameFreak included abilities (Shadow Tag, Magnet Pull, Arena Trap) and moves (Magma Storm, Whirlpool, Bind, Block, Sand Tomb, Mean Look, Pursuit, etc.) to prevent/punish switching as well as items (Shed Shell, Grip Claw) that are also intended to be relevant to these strategies; one could even go as far to say that hazards are intended to punish switching as well (but that's besides the point). Obviously, we'd both agree that what separates Arena Trap from the aforementioned examples (such as Magnet Pull) is the sheer amount of pokemon that can be trapped, which is why I'd argue it's overpowered opposed to uncompetitive. It's not like you can't see Dugtrio in team preview or that it's some unlucky surprise your Heatran got trapped.
In my mind, what separates double-switching/somehow bringing Dugtrio in safely to face Heatran (for example) opposed to doing the same thing except with a wallbreaker like Crawdaunt or setup sweeper like Zygarde (who both presumably also take advantage of Heatran) is that Dugtrio guarantees the removal of Heatran, while the opposing player at a minimum gets to pick what to sac in the latter cases, assuming they can't wall the said threat. In other words, somehow bringing Dugtrio in to take advantage of the opponent's pokemon isn't unlike double-switching in a wallbreaker or setup sweeper also intended to take advantage of it, it's just that Dugtrio guarantees the removal of a specific threat (which like you said can be taken advantage of such as stall teams removing the opponent's main stallbreaker) while the other examples give the opponent more options. Now, perhaps the removal of other options is why you might say Arena Trap is uncompetitive, but I disagree for two reasons: 1) The "removal of other options" is literally switching out in this case, and I think GameFreak clearly intended to make preventing/punishing switches part of the game as discussed earlier and 2) Let's say your opponent gets a kill with Heatran, allowing you to eliminate it with Dugtrio so your stall team/scarf katana etc. can easily win; how is this significantly different from my opponent letting their Ferrothorn take heavy damage if it's their only option to stop my Barraskewda from sweeping their team, but doing so chips their Ferrothorn enough to where my swords dance Scizor is guaranteed to sweep? In both cases, the opponent is "checkmated" and must do something to prevent themselves from losing only to guarantee losing another way (Not a perfect analogy, but I'm making the assumption that an opponent who chose to kill something with their Heatran knew it would be revenged by Duggy, but chose to do so anyways because they believed it was their best chance at winning). My point is, that these examples are significantly different, but not because Arena Trap relies on luck or is uncompetitive, but because Arena Trap is too good at greatly punishing opponents when you correctly predict the double-switch or force them to get a kill with something important that Dugtrio can trap; thus, Arena Trap is overpowered.

Of course, one could also argue that something that is "overpowered" is also "uncompetitive" in the sense that there's no reason not to use it, it's too good for the tier, games will become more competitive/reliant on skill without it, etc. However, under this logic literally anything that is banned could be called "uncompetitive" and I don't think anyone would make that argument.

My point of this is not to nitpick you or anyone else for fun, but I don't like when people use an argument along the lines of "Arena Trap is simply uncompetitive and invalidates a fundamental/key aspect of pokemon" because it attempts to frame the discussion in a way that makes it impossible to argue against Arena Trap being banned; also, the fact that another trapping ability, Magnet Pull, is not banned makes no sense if one views trapping as simply uncompetitive and against the fundamentals of the game. Instead, I think it makes more sense to argue that Arena Trap is overpowered/broken/too good in order to 1) draw a distinction between banning Arena Trap and Moody (a banned ability that "uncompetitive" fits much more accurately) and 2) explain why Magnet Pull (and even trapping moves) aren't banned. I think this will lead to more productive discussion opposed to (incorrectly) dismissing someone's differing opinions outright (Not to say that Monky25 didn't provide good examples of why Arena Trap is banned after claiming it is uncompetitive, but I am speaking about posters here in general).
I think here at Smogon we like to use wall of texts and college essays to explain as intelligently as possible why our arbitrary rules of a child's video game are valid. You want to know the real reason Dugtrio and Shadow Tag are banned? It's because they're not fucking fun. Getting your ass destroyed because Dugtrio double switched in on your Heatran and now you lose a Pokemon every single time that Kartana clicks Leaf Blade is incredibly frustrating. Can a good player build a team to handle Dugtrio better? Sure, run Shed Shell or don't use Heatran. But it's a complete bullshit mechanic that's generally not enjoyable to play with.

There's a lot of uncompetitive mechanics in Pokemon. Move accuracy, crits, secondary effects (tbolt para), team matchup, 50/50s etc. Pokemon is a terrible competitive game. I don't think a single person here actually plays this dumb game because they consider themselves a smarty and want to test their skill vs others. We play this dumb game because Pokemon is fun. Team building is fun. Battling is fun. Seeing Pokemon get new moves and abilities between gens is exciting. Watching metas morph and adapt is interesting. But is it a good competitive game? Fuck no rofl. Smogon bans / alters SOME uncompetitive things such as Evasion, Moody, and Sleep (clause) but at the end of the day a line has to be drawn somewhere. Smogon could ban every single chance based thing. No moves with secondary effects or miss chance, mod out crits, ban every ability with a % chance of activating etc... but then we aren't playing Pokemon. So generally the line seems to be what is or is not enjoyable to play against. We try to minimize the "bullshit" factor without altering the game to no longer resemble Gamefreak's slave rancher abomination.

tl;dr trapping doesn't necessarily mean the better player won't win but it's incredibly unfun and everyone from low ladder scrubs to top tier tournament winners agrees that Dugtrio makes the game worse. Ban it, ban it forever, I never want to see three moles in one place again in my life.
 
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