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Note: My opinions in this post don't necessarily reflect those of the council; some of them agree with me, some don't. I haven't been playing a ton, but over the past week or so in the new meta I've come to realise that we have a few issues. This is largely the same as my old post lol but I figured I'd give some slightly updated opinions.
I don't have too much to say, Highways pretty much got it all already. These two are very, very restrictive and only have one or two reliable answers that are either a) worn down quickly or b) not really good mons in the current meta. I don't expect them to last too much longer in the current meta, they're just far too silly.
Talked about the water snake a bit before in my other post, but I think it's even more ridiculous now. Losing Dracozolt was unsurprisingly huge for this thing, since it was pretty much the best offensive check in the tier, but honestly the lack of mons that can actually handle its hits and threaten it at the same time is such an issue. Stuff like Tangrowth and Amoonguss w/ Protect can check it, yes, but they can barely even do anything in return other than just stall it out of Bounce PP, and while we have some great scarfers like Latias and Rotom-W that can take it on it just feels really restrictive and silly in teambuilding, especially with Screens support. I would definitely vote ban on it rn.
Terrakion has gotten better, strangely enough. The things we used to check it in the old meta - Slowbro, Mudsdale, GWeezing, RKing with Noivern/Heliolisk/friends - all pretty much nonexistent now. Palossand doesn't exist either. Hippowdon is a reasonably good check but it needs to be max/max to even stand a chance at surviving a +2 CC, and revenge killing Terrak isn't even the easiest thing right now with the ubiquity of sand making it quite resilient against things like Scarf Hydreigon. It just feels beyond stupid whether it's running SD or CB, and Scarf has been popping up too as a Volcarona answer. I'm on the fence about it rn but I'd probably lean towards ban.
one day i will get a good gif of u
I said before that Azu might get overbearing as time goes on. Time has gone on and it's kinda overbearing. Ice Punch has emerged as a way to slap its best checks in Tangrowth and Amoonguss, so nothing's really safe from the bunny anymore. +6 Jet resists are reasonably easy to come by with things like Tapu Bulu, Latias, and Hydreigon fitting the bill, but Latias needs Thunderbolt to even have a shot at RKing and Hydreigon can't do it no matter how hard it tries unless it's like, Belch??? so yea not really ideal! It's a bit of an unhealthy presence imo, I don't think it's worth keeping anymore and would probably vote ban given the chance.
Some other things:
I think Volc's okay right now but if we were to ban all of the Pokemon I listed above there would be no doubt in my mind that it'd end up being broken. We'd need to see to be 100% sure, obviously, but I can't see it being healthy unless there's a massive rise in Lycanroc-Dusk and Crawdaunt to account for the departure of Terrakion and Azumarill.
V-Create go brr, a lot of people both on this thread and on the council have expressed their feelings that Victini might be too much for the tier to handle right now. I personally disagree, all of its sets are either limited by hazard damage or lack of immediate power, but I guess CB is kinda silly on Sun. Idt it's that good but I guess it's worth looking at.
Still really dumb, still really hard to kill, but it hasn't felt as silly lately. The meta might shift away from it. I don't know what I'd vote if we were to hold a vote on it right now, but I think I'm leaning towards DNB.
I've seen some talk about Lele lately, and I don't really get it. Like yeah it absolutely smashes teams without strong Psychic resists but I don't think those are hard to fit right now thanks to the excellence of bulky Scizor, Celesteela, Jirachi, and Tapu Bulu which can remove the Psychic Terrain that makes Lele so scary. I'd be interested in hearing more opinions on this thing bc I really don't know if I'm just missing something but it feels alright atm.
I don't have a lot of opinion about Gengar and Slash about a ban, but there's no doubt they're in their current element, especially Gengar, which I see very little of, and I would think it would be a shame to ban it when the pokémon has been underutilized (to the point of ending RU, which I find very disturbing for this pokémon) and not give it a little more time, already to get back to its "true UU" status and see how the meta will adapt to its return.
Gyarados: Typically the type of poké for which I think it's the Aurora veil that needs to be banned, and not the pokémon that benefits from it, so many double screens in one round allows you to gain enormously in the conditioning of a poké for sweep. Other poké like Moltres-G, Kommo-o Clangorous Soul or CM Keldeo or the rabbit just underneath become unstoppable in my eyes once under the screen of Ninetales-A.
Terrakion : Well, for me, Lycanroc does everything better than him offensively, even check volcarona with Accelerock. Defensively he is obviously more interesting, but who would play an offensive monster with his stats defensively?
Victini: Hell of strong, Victini 2hko absolutely everything in the third with a choice band, and the fact that he's "stopped" by hazards doesn't change the fact that he puts in PLS in the third, Hippowdown or not. The only pokémon I can see coming, Volcanion, gets destroyed by Blot Strike. To be banished as soon as possible. Rhyperior is good to stop him i guess, but lacks a way to heal itself, and is easily usable as a setup fodder for too many pokémon (Tapu bulu is the first to come to mind). V for Violence should be prohibited.
Tapu Lele: Well, like Lilburr, I don't think it's broken in the third at the moment, but it's also thanks to the fact that Celesteela and Aegislah are still there. Behind their banns, if it happens, we find ourselves with Jirachi/Metagross as a hard counter to her, it's another story... Personally, at the moment, I'm playing it with Salazzle to take advantage of her talent against the steel types.
On a another note...
Ammongus: To be clear immediately, I don't especially find it broken, but it's hard for me to find a more boring pokémon to deal with right now than this thing. Right now. From the moment the fight starts and you see it on the opposing team, you can be sure that a pokémon is going to become almost unusable, or if you're lucky enough to have a Grass-type on your team, he's good to be dead knowing that it's going to be either : Bulu which is 4x weak at Sludge bomb or Tangrowth which has 50 in Spedef . Wouhou. And even behind that, the 30% Sludge Bomb poisons is really stressful, knowing how much residual damage is really annoying in this game.
So, once again, the pokémon itself isn't overpowering, but the combo of all its points makes it hell to deal with and cheesy to use.
Been messing with this mon after reading how annoying she is in RU. I wouldn't rank Salazzle higher than a C or C+ as far as viability goes, but 366 Speed is outsped by only five other mons in this tier naturally, and Protect/Sub helps scout for Scarves. Requires hazard removal support since you cut into your own HP so much that Black Sludge is pretty much required (my gut tells me HDB and Grassy Terrain wouldn't work as well) and that hurts her viability a lot. But Salazzle does spread Toxic everywhere, even things normally immune to it, and that can be a real nuisance if you're not prepared.
Anyway, question: has anyone made Raikou work? You'd think a faster, bulkier, stronger Heliolisk with great type coverage would be pretty good, but I haven't seen any at all.
Anyway, question: has anyone made Raikou work? You'd think a faster, bulkier, stronger Heliolisk with great type coverage would be pretty good, but I haven't seen any at all.
You can make Raikou work, but there are usually better options. A sub/CM set with TBolt/Scald can be pretty potent in the right situation, but something like Volcarona fills a similar role and does it in a much scarier fashion. Volt Switch Raikou is also probably outclassed by Thundurus-T. Raikou is still good though - it's just outclassed by a few other things atm.
A fun check to the ghosts;
Obstagoon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Parting Shot/ Switcheroo
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch/ Fire Punch/ Gunk Shot/ Grass Knot
OHKOs and outsiders every set, except ScarfGar but you only fear Focus Blast from that, even Dazzling Gleam does ~70%. And ScarfGar locked into Dazzling Gleam is great set up bait for something like Volcarona.
If Aegislash clicks Kings Shield;
+1 252 Atk Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 276-326 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Thanks to Defiant. If you go Jolly you can still outspeed and OHKO +2 Speed Aegislash. Adamant almost always OHKOs even without Rocks.
He has a lot of coverage options and puts in a lot of work across the tier. You can even go Mixed for Hippo (does about 40% uninvested).
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Rock Slide
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
Sap Sipper is a fun ability. Means it can switch into wood hammer and horn leech from tapu bulu for free, bonus points if it has both, double points if it's running bulk up too. And slugde wave is a guaranteed ko!
0 SpA Goodra Sludge Wave vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 312-368 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The opponent could evidently switch to their steel type, but which one? Scizor won't work too well; bullet punch 3hkos
0 SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 412-488 (119.7 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
Magnezone ain't doing much either.
0 SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 188-222 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Celesteela has a 50% chance of beating a full-health goodra, so it comes down to who has more chip.
0 SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 124-148 (31.2 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Goodra: 118-139 (30.7 - 36.1%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO
Keep in mind, pressing fire blast makes it so that you can probably account for both tapu and steela, in case you predict a switch.
Anyways, you get the gist: good tapu bulu counter. Stone edge does hurt but it only 3hkos so bulu is still forced to switch out. This goo set also does other things, like stopping volcarona!
+3 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 178-210 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Goodra Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 308-364 (99 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Even a *very* low health goodra can take on Volcarona.
It also helps that goodra can switch into spores and giga drains from Amoonguss and 3hko it with fire blast, which is fun.
0 SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 186-220 (43.1 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Meteor is there primarily to hit Latias and hydreigon for ohko damage before they can ohko it with their meteors. Not really important but in case you want to win that 1v1/punish a switch-in, it helps. Actually latias's meteor doesn't instantly destroy you, even!
252 SpA Soul Dew Latias Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 320-380 (83.3 - 98.9%) -- not a KO
Also checks Thundurus-therian pretty well. Granted a lot of mons can do this but Therian has options to beat all of them, but nothing for gooey boi.
I've found this set very fun to use on the ladder. It's not really a 'great' Pokemon or whatever but it compresses a lot of unique traits into a single Pokemon and can fill a lot of oddly shaped holes.
Welp, I'm bored so I guess I'll do a little metagame analysis for a bit. Meta is bound to change in a few days with some mons potentially rising up to OU due to the changes happening there as well. Mostly gonna give my thoughts on stuff I consider to be fun/broken as well as respond to an old post I made on the 4th and see my opinions now versus then. Also, I hit top 100 on the ladder using Amane Misa's HO team that was posted earlier in this thread, super fun to use, and it really helped me get through a teambuilding block I was having not too long ago. Anyway, here are my general thoughts about the UU metagame as a whole right now (spoiler: its really good, very few things stick out as problematic)
- I've been sticking at least one of these on every team I've made and they are prolly the only things that could be quickbanned tbh. The earlier posts cover them really well, but aegi's versatility, gengars breaking power, and gyara's snowballing potential all can clean games VERY quickly. During my ladder run I use sub NP gengar and +2 killed nearly everything, but if I got to +4 nothing stopped it. Gyara has coverage to bypass its problems for its last slot, usually between ice fang or bounce depending if you want to hit mence or go for more damage on amoongus and tangrowth. I personally have fun using these and while it would suck to see them go, I have to be realistic and realize that these probably aren't staying here long term.
- these 2 have been brought up, and I struggle to see how either of these are qb material. Azu hits very hard and can take a neutral unboosted hit, but its very slow and belly drum sets fail to perform well without veil. There are plenty of things like zeraora. thundurus, tangrowth, amoongus, tapu bulu, celesteela, bulky scizor, and rotom wash that can kinda reliably deal with it. Terrak is odd especially since it was outclassed by lycanroc-dusk. Scarf is really good to revenge faster opponents but fails yo break things like tang, suicune, amoongus, hippo, etc. SD mitigates this issue but wears it down a bunch, I think both are very good pokemon but neither are qb worthy. Both share the same defensive checks and while they have ways around them, they still get stopped for the most part. I'm not opposed to a future suspect but a quick ban for either of these seems insane to me.
- remember when we all thought lele was busted? Psy terrain died out with the ban of hawlucha and with my ladder climb I saw it maybe once out of like 30 games. Struggling with things like celesteela and jirachi is really tough in this metagame not to mention bulu can block out psy terrain with its own terrain. Idk lele just seems meh, same with zam atm. Lele might rise to OU so that's whatever, zam is pretty good and could be problematic down the line but for now its not even a top15 mon here lmao.
- for the most part, weathers have been kinda underwhelming, partly due to the excellence of hippo which disrupts the weathers. Rain and sun are not going anywhere anytime soon, we have plenty of stuff that can take on sun's top threats like venu and if sun were to be overwhelming than it would likely be due to victini or volcarona, both excellent and potentially banworthy mons in my eyes, but for now sun and especially venu aren't going anywhere, its viable but not overbearing. Rain sucks lol, mostly cause politoed is such a momentum sink and the abusers are meh, especially after barraskweda left. Though, even with barraskweda rain is not broken. while veil can be tedious, I feel its due to the set up sweepers more, stuff like gyara and gengar make veil appaear broken when they are the ones that are broken.
Twilight did a very good post on some metagame trends in Sticky Web and Weather. I'd like to touch on one of the trends they didn't talk about: Trick Room. Trick Room has been gaining a lot of traction with the new DLC. We got new setters AND new abusers! Before DLC 2, Trick Room didn't really get any usage due to the lack of viable options for setters and abusers, especially after the tier lost Hatterene and Crawdaunt. We gained Slowbro and Alolan Marowak in the September shifts, but the tier still lacked reliable TR setters, leading some (me) to resort to Pokémon like Runerigus. With the arrival of a load of new Pokémon from the DLC 2, Trick Room has finally found itself as one of the most potent metagame trends.
Setters
Even though UU had setters like Porygon2 and Bronzong before DLC 2, The Crown Tundra is what really made this playstyle flourish. The tier shifts in conjunction with DLC 2 gave UU 4 new amazing TR setters! Hatterene, Stakataka, Cresselia and Uxie are all very good setters for a multitude of reasons, each their own. Let's see why they're so good and why they deserve a spot on your team.
Hatterene provides the team with a much needed way of dealing with hazard entrys through Magic Bounce, as TR teams don't run Defog/Rapid Spin as to not waste precious turns that could be used to destroy the opposing team. It's good bulk, typing and extremely low Speed stat make it not only a good lead with Misty Explosion + Focus Sash, but also an extremely dangerous offensive threat under TR. It's access to Mystical Fire + STABs make it very hard to deal with, as potential Steel-types get hit very hard by Fire-type coverage, while Dark-types get destroyed by Draining Kiss after a Calm Mind boost and Poison-types are obliterated by Psychic. Few Pokémon can check it reliably, one of them being Victini.
Stakataka is an extremely dangerous TR attacker. With a base Speed of only 13, under TR, Stakataka outspeeds every single Pokémon in UU. What it lacks in Speed, it provides in its Attack and Defense. With an impressive base 131 Attack, Stakataka does major damage to everything that doesn't resist its moves. By running its STABs in Stone Edge + Gyro Ball and coverage in Heat Crash, Stakataka destroys its would-be checks in Jirachi, Celesteela and Magnezone. It also has the option of being the team's Stealth Rock setter, though that leaves it walled by the Pokémon mentioned before.
Stakataka @ Air Balloon
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Stone Edge
- Gyro Ball
- Heat Crash
Despite being with us since gen 4,
Cresselia and
Uxie are not outdated TR setters at all. Their very good bulk, useful ability and access to utility moves make them very good picks for TR setters. Cresselia has access to utility moves in Lunar Dance and Magic Coat, while Uxie has access to U-turn, Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Heal Bell, Memento and Yawn (now writing this I realize how versatile Uxie is wow). Despite Cresselia lacking in its movepool, Lunar Dance and its monstrous bulk of 130/120/130 more than make up for it. Uxie as listed above has a plethora os useful moves, and, along with Bronzong, are the main Stealth Rock setters in these kinds of teams. Both of them can help set Trick Room up, with Cresselia sometimes being an offensive TR setter, having access to Calm Mind and good coverage in Psychic, Ice Beam, Energy Ball, Moonblast and Shadow Ball. Uxie, on the other hand, will most times just set TR and U-turn out of the opponent's Pokémon, bringing in a strong wallbreaker.
Uxie @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
Diancie finds itself as an interesting TR setter. It has an unique Rock/Fairy typing (making it an option for a Volcarona check), good bulk, access to useful moves in Stealth Rock, Heal Bell, Encore, Iron Defense and Body Press make it a strangely valuable pick on TR teams. Good offensive STABs and coverage in moves like Moonblast, Diamond Storm, Body Press and Mystical Fire also don't let Diancie become too passive against Pokémon like Keldeo and Incineroar looking to come in on a resisted hit, especially if running the Weakness Policy set.
Diancie @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Explosion
Diancie @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm
- Mystical Fire
- Body Press
Bronzong,
Slowking and
Porygon2 are more defensive setters, with Bronzong having access to Stealth Rock, useful abilities and a very good typing. Slowking and Porygon2 are very good at generating momentum via Teleport, setting the TR and teleporting right after.
Mimikyu serve as more offensive TR setters. Reuniclus has a respectable 125 base Special Attack and 110 base HP, making it both bulky and powerful. It has 3 amazing abilities in Regenerator, Magic Guard and Overcoat. Overcoat notably lets Reuniclus switch into opposing Amoonguss on a Spore, letting it then set TR and cause major damage to the opponent's team. Mimikyu is a Pokémon that I very rarely see on TR teams, but is very valuable. Disguise gives you a free TR every time, letting you save your team after hax or something.
Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast / Energy Ball / Thunder
Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance / Destiny Bond
Abusers
I've already touched on
Hatterene and
Stakataka, so I won't go too much in detail on them. Stakataka is a very valuable attacker right now even though it struggles with Hippowdon and the addition of Body Press to the game, though Air Balloon is an option for Hippowdon and so is Chople Berry. Gyro Ball destroys Tapu Buu and Heat Crash lets it handle Aegislash, Amoonguss and Tangrowth. Hatterene is a very potent sweeper with Calm Mind.
Hatterene (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Psychic
- Mystical Fire
Stakataka @ Choice Band / Chople Berry
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Gyro Ball
- Heat Crash
Both
Crawdaunt and
Azumarill are extremely deadly under TR. Their Choice Band variants dismantle cores and their priority in Aqua Jet helps them not be useless outside of TR. Both of them have very good Water-type STABs in Liquidation, with Crawdaunt having an even better one in Crabhammer if you're brave enough to use it. Their ability to deal with Pokémon like Hippowdon and Celesteela boosts even more their potential. Not only that, Crawdaunt destroys Jirachi and Latias with Knock Off, while Azumarill takes care of Kommo-o with Play Rough.
Crawdaunt @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Aqua Jet
- Crabhammer / Liquidation
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Aqua Jet
- Crabhammer / Liquidation / Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Aqua Jet
- Liquidation
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
Tapu Bulu along with
Conkeldurr form an amazing offensive core. While Tapu Bulu handles Hippowdon, Conkeldurr can obliterate Gengar, Latias and Aegislash with Knock Off. Not only that, Grassy Surge helps the team rack up recovery and negates Conkeldurr's Flame Orb burn damage. Conkeldurr's access to Mach Punch, much like Aqua Jet from Crawdaunt and Azumarill, helps the team not become useless outside of TR. Tapu Bulu's Choice Band Wood Hammer does bonkers amounts of damage to anything that doesn't resist it, and even grounded resists still take a good chunk. Its coverage options also help it wallbreak: Rock Slide OHKOes Volcarona, High Horsepower dents Aegislash, Darkest Lariat gets rid of Gengar, Zen Headbutt deals with Amoonguss, Megahorn helps against Latias, Close Combat destroys Hydreigon and the rare Smart Strike can 2HKO opposing Tapu Bulu without having to worry about recoil! With a Choice Band, all of the moves either OHKO or 2HKO the mentioned Pokémon and others, so pick the ones that best suit your team!
Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wood Hammer
- Rock Slide
- Darkest Lariat
- Close Combat
Tapu Bulu @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Wood Hammer
- Darkest Lariat
- Close Combat
Aegislash is the tier's top Pokémon. The multitude of sets this thing can run is insane: SD + 3 attacks, Choice Specs, Choice Band, Sub + Toxic, Autotomize + 3 attacks, Sub + 3 attacks, Weakness Policy and there's probably some more given how versatile and powerful it is. The ideal set for a TR team is either a setup sweeper with Swords Dance or a Weakness Policy set. Again, Aegislash's access to Shadow Sneak helps the team outside of TR. Aegislash has no reliable checks or counters, and revenge killing it can be hard if it has set up with either SD or WP, as it is neutral to Aqua Jet, resistant to Accelerock and immune to Mach Punch, while the tier has basically no Ghost resists. (please ban this thing)
Alolan Marowak hits insanely hard and dismantles everything in the tier under Trick Room. Its access to incredibly strong STAB moves in Flare Blitz and Poltergeist, Rock Head as an ability and Thick Club make Marokaw almost unwallable. As said before, the tier has very little Ghost resists, meaning Marowak can just spam Poltergeist while also being able to click Flare Blitz without having to worry about recoil. Its coverage moves also help it against Pokémon like Incineroar. Unfortunately, it struggles a lot outside of TR due to low Speed, weakness to common priority and weakness to Stealth Rock, since it has to run Thick Club to effectively wallbreak.
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Poltergeist
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
Finally,
Glastrier is the playstyle's newest addition. With its gargantuous Attack stat, amazing bulk, very good ability, and good coverage, Glastrier definitely deserves a slot on your TR team! Ice is a potent offensive typing, dealing with the tier's premier defensive wall in Hippowdon, while also dealing heaps of damage to common Pokémon in the meta, like Celesteela, Tapu Bulu, Amoonguss and Latias. Its Icicle Crash is insanely powerful, and is sure to break through the opposing team even before a Chilling Neigh boost. Close Combat, High Horsepower, Throat Chop, Heavy Slam and Megahorn are all coverage options Glastrier can choose. Glastrier can also opt for a Weakness Policy set due to its amazing bulk.
Glastrier @ Choice Band / Weakness Policy
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat
- High Horsepower / Throat Chop
- Heavy Slam
Glastrier @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat
- High Horsepower / Throat Chop
- Swords Dance
Anti Trick Room
Zeraora,
Lycanroc-Dusk, and
Sharpedo can all play an interesting yet pretty unexplored role in TR teams. They serve not only as counters to opposing TR teams, being able to outspeed and do major damage, but also as effective cleaners once your own TR setters have gone down and the opposing team could beat you. These 3 are all fast and strong Pokémon that can help you circumvent games that otherwise could be lost! They are not mandatory whatsoever, but do keep them in mind when teambuilding TR.
Zeraora @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Play Rough
Lycanroc-Dusk @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Close Combat
- Psychic Fangs / Iron Head
- Crunch
Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Protect
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Close Combat
Niche Picks
All of these Pokémon can act as wallbreakers under Trick Room, though they are outclassed by others and are not really worth using under TR in the current metagame.
After much discussion, the council will be voting on a large slate over the next few days. All in all we'll be looking at Aegislash, Gengar, Gyarados, Terrakion and Volcarona. In order to give the council time to discuss, test and read community thoughts on this voting slate, voting will remain open until Sunday, November 29 at 5 PM EST. So, if you have thoughts on these five 'mons, now's the time to weigh in!
To all the Americans in the crowd, have a safe, fun holiday and stay the fuck home.
I think there should be a very very high bar for quickbanning something (like how awful Hawlucha was), as we can always suspect things later. It should be something that is just so unbelievably powerful that nobody can really reasonably say otherwise. And everyone (or nobody) knows I rarely like things to be banned. That being said, I'd like to give input that I hope at least 60% of the council reads on these mon:
Aegislash is top tier UU mon atm. It has many different sets and can dismantle or frustrate any team with the right set, which is hard to predict from the outset. Even a Swords Dance set can be lethal if you're not expecting it, and I think this unpredictability factor is what makes it most dangerous and, in my opinion, the only mon out of these five that may deserve a QB. You cannot properly prepare for an Aegislash because you don't know what it will do. It could use Toxic and then stall you out. If you think it's physical, it could use Specs Shadow Ball or Flash Cannon to do big damage to your physical tank. If you think it's Special, then it could take out your special tank with Close Combat. If you think it's mixed, then it could set up with SD or Automotize (or both) and then plow through most of your team. I personally would not vote to ban because I think you can still manage it, but I would understand why a decision would be made to ban it.
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So I get that everyone is up in arms about the Sub Gengar set, and it is very good, but the counters seem to be underexplored ATM. I saw a Noivern OHKO it through screens and sub, and any team with Teleport Chansey + Infiltrator mon (Noivern or Crobat or scarf Chandelure) can easily switch in, teleport, then KO it back through sub or force it to switch. That doesn't mean it's not OP, but it does mean there are answers for it. AV Bisharp or a standard Krook also handles the sub set well. While it loses to Focus Blast, the sub set usually doesn't have that, and none of the other Gengar sets are that overbearing besides the sub set ATM. Overall, while Gengar is very good, I don't think it's even close to as overbearing as Aegislash or Hawlucha or Weavile or Blacephalon or Dracozolt. If the council really thinks it is a problem, I think it's better to suspect it instead of a QB.
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Gyarados is, I think, scarier than Gengar, but still not QB-worthy. You can stop it the same way you stop any DD sweeper - which is get rid of it or force a switch before it gets out of hand. Gyarados is very slow, so any scarfer will outspeed it even when it is at +1 (like Rotom, Tapu Lele, etc.). Lycanroc also does over 75% to it with Accel. And if it's a bounce set, it's easy to exploit by baiting a bounce and switching to something that resists it on the first turn. I think Gyarados is fine.
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To be quite frank, I'm not sure why Terrakion is on the slate while other things (primarily Celesteela) are not. Lycanroc is probably better than Terrakion at nearly everything it does. It hits very hard and is difficult to switch in yes, but Lycanroc is the same way, and it's faster, and it has STAB and TC boosted priority. I just don't really feel the Terrak ban talk right now.
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When drops first happened, I would say Volcarona was one of the most immediate concerns. And it still is very good. But it seems to me that as time as gone on, the tier has learned to adapt to it and there are various counterplays that have been used against it. Diancie is probably the easiest Volcarona counter, as even +1 Giga Drain won't do much and Diancie will OHKO it back. Lycanroc easily OHKO's it with priority. Azu/Crawdaunt priority Jet will nearly OHKO it also. It then has to choose between Giga Drain and Psychic - and that decision is the difference between managing specialy defensive water mons like Gastrodon, or being able to do decent damage to mons like Nihilego. Obviously, in the right situation, it can set up and destroy an entire team with ease. But so can a lot of things right now, and I don't think Volcarona is the worst offender for that. Maybe it will be banworthy or suspect worthy in the future, but right now it seems alright.
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So, I think this needs to be brought up, because there are plenty of people in the community that think Celesteela needs to go. I, personally, don't think so, but I DO think it's more problematic than any of these other five mons on the slate (except Aegislash maybe). In every single team that I build, the first thing I have to do is make sure I have a way to beat Celesteela. Because if you don't specifically build to check it, then you cannot kill it no matter how hard you try. I am talking mainly about the Leech Seed defensive set, as the other more offensive sets don't seem that broken. Many of its "checks" and "counters" lose to it 1v1 (Magneton, Volcanion, Rotom, all lose if they get seeded). Physical hitters like Victini, who are often choiced, can just get scouted with Protect. Knock Off users are easy to identify so it doesn't need to stay in on those. If it gets a kill, then it's nearly impossible to take out unless you still have a heavy hitting physical mon w/ Knock Off or STAB Physical Fire/Electric (basically Victini or Zeraora). And even still, those will get worn down if they get seeded on switch, as neither has reliable recovery. I guess, you could just continue to predict and switch out to regenerator mons like Amoonguss and Slowking-G (someone brought this up in the UU chat the other day), but that is a bit silly and it only takes two bad predicts in a row for one of them to be out. It is just so incredibly constraining to have to deal with this behemoth of defense, and I think, if we are going to talk about things like Terrakion, we really need to talk about this thing too then.
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That's all my thoughts. Feel free to flame, I can take it.
Back with another post today! I know I'm gonna make a post talking about why terrakion and volcarona shouldn't be banned eventually so might as well get it done now. Simply put, we have a solid amount of options to keep these 2 in check to the point where they are not quickban worthy, and with options like gyarados or gengar which help beats their checks most likely to leave makes them easier to handle. Basically we have enough counter play of these mons and they'll only get worse as their checks become better with the others leaving.
Terrakion
-To begin with, terrakion has a multitude of sets it can run, being SD LO, band, and scarf as the most viable ones. Each of them have their pros- scarf can deal with faster threats, SD LO tears through teams, and band breaks through as well but without the LO damage. Yet, they all have issues. Scarf fails to break hippo and tang, while SD LO is much more vulnerable to priority as it slowly looses health. Lastly, terrak can be taken advantage of fairly easily while being locked into band. Anyway, here are some mons that can at least check 1 of its sets.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 328-386 (78 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-Hippowdon eats a +2 CC and kills back with earthquake. While hippo has low HP afterward, it has reliable recovery so its a solid check.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 220+ Def Amoonguss: 226-267 (52.4 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery -Amoongus can beat CB sets but lose to SD LO sets with some chip
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Celesteela: 277-327 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-standard defensive steela beats band and scarf, but lose to SD LO sets too
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 252-296 (78 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock -beats standard LO set and scarf, has a roll to lose to band
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 696-818 (215.4 - 253.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 294-346 (85.9 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock -Azu cant switch in, but band deals heavy damage that rocky helmet chip or LO recoil makes up, while +6 BD ends it
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Hatterene: 190-225 (59.7 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-This Hatterene set beats CB and scarf, but looses to +2 life orb.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Kommo-o: 337-398 (95.1 - 112.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO - Kommo-o is one of the best checks to terrak, beating band and scarf very easily, has a chance to lose of LO but still should be acknowledged.
252 SpA Latias Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 288-338 (89.1 - 104.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock While latias cant switch into +2 terrakion's stone edge, it is able to outspeed and threaten a OHKO with psychic. It also beats the other sets relatively easily.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 351-414 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -The GOAT rhyperiror can stomach a band or scarf CC and kill back with earthquake, but cannot switch in.
252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock -cant switch into anything but still lives a band or scarf hit and kills with bullet punch. One of the best revenge killers for this mon
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -between rocky helmet chip, LO damage, and giga drain damage, tangrowth is the best thing to use to solve your terrakion problems.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 260-307 (80.4 - 95%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock -you already know this cant switch in, but it does hefty damage to terrak and it even dies from LO chip after killing daunt
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 306-360 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock -keldeo cant switch in either, but its scarf set threatens an OHKO after rocks. Great revenge killer with scarf due to speed tying terrakion
252 Atk Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 346-408 (107.1 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO -lycanroc-dusk cant switch in but offensively it deals with terrakion that isnt scarf (what do you know scarf beats something)
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 328-388 (101.5 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO -non scarf sets lose to +1 volc, but scarf is pretty common to beat volcarona. Not the best answer but it does something.
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 328-385 (101.5 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO -havent seen this mon in ages but disguise lets you live a hit and KO back with play rough
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 289-341 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO -Ahhh good old skarm, has a chance at eating a +2 CC and then killing back with body press. Beats band and scarf of course
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 259-306 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -suicune cant switch in but beats band sets in a 1V1, looses to +2 SD LO though
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - doesn't reliably beat band all the time unless stone edge misses or scald burns, still beats scarf though. Hates megahorn
As you can see from these calculations, there are ways around terrakion despite it having 3 possible sets. Its band and scarf sets lose to so much, and while its SD+LO set is problematic, we have faster options and priority users that can beat it, plus it tends to get worn down between rocky helmet mons and LO recoil, making priority users have an easier time beating it. Terrakion just isn't something worthy quickbanning in my eyes, and i hope the council feels the same
Volcarona
- while I initially thought this would be broken, over time i realized we have a lot more checks to it than i thought, and if gyara leaves a lot of these checks getting better to deal with volcarona. Psy terrain helps it but psychich terrain is on a decline right now, plus it looses out on mons to beat if it runs giga drain or psychic
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 116 SpD Hippowdon: 313-369 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -Hippo can put it on a timer with toxic or phase it out with whirlwind, spdef hippo was run when volc was still in OU so its pretty solid to adapt the stats from there. It even eats a giga drain with this spread.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 338-398 (108.6 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO -eats anything volc throws at +1 and even a +2 psychic, meaning it can set up belly drum on volc's face or outright kill it. Has to be wary of flame body burns.
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 496-588 (159.4 - 189%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-Eats anything that isnt a +2 psychic and kills back with power gem or meteor beam, gets a nice boost toward its special attack or speed.
+3 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine: 187-221 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -though uncommon, mantine forces volc to get at +3 to 2HKO it while it can scald, haze, or toxic volc in return.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 408-480 (131.1 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO -beats any volc that doesnt have giga drain and can kill back with scald or set up in return with calm mind.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 244 HP / 188 SpD Rhyperior: 277-327 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -rhyperior cant switch into +1 volc but can kill with rock blast relatively easily
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 248 HP / 92+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 158-187 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-rotom heat eats volc's hits and can pivot out with volt switch or put it on a timer with toxic
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 916-1084 (294.5 - 348.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-scarf terrakion cant switch in on +1 volc and looses to +2 volc but can revenge kill with stone edge if its only at +1
252+ SpA Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 378-446 (121.5 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO -eats any of volc's hits at +1 and steam eruption kills. Cant switch in on psychic if volc is at +2 but solid check regardless.
+4 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 351-414 (49.9 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO -this fat bitch can take hits and just pivot out to a revenge killer or status it with thunder wave or toxic
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 333-395 (107 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO -crawdaunt revenge kills, has to be wary of flame body burn
252 Atk Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 448-532 (144 - 171%) -- guaranteed OHKO -same as above
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 344-408 (110.6 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO -scarf keldeo cant switch into coverage but kills with hydro pump/scald.
252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 222-264 (71.3 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -doesnt like switching in but can flinch the poor bastard to deal if unboosted.
0 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 544-648 (174.9 - 208.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO -love this mon, gives no shits and even eats giga drain nicely, kills the bastard with diamond storm
Stuff like araquanid, noivern, salamence, goodra, kommo-o, rain sweepers, marowak-alola all deal with volcarona as well, just too lazy to post calcs.
All in all volc has a good amount of checks to its standard sets. Some mons struggle if its psychic and other struggle if giga drain, but the point is that it'll be screwed over regardless of what move it picks. For those who are wondering, psychic is the most preferred option so stuff weak to giga like diance have an even better time dealing with volcarona. Both volc and terrakion are very powerful sweepers, but are not quick ban worthy at all. Banning too much at once seems hasty, and i feel once the busted ghosts and gyarados are gone these 2 will be a lot more manageable. Of course i can be wrong and they still tear up shit, but i believe they shouldnt be quickbanned this upcoming slate.
Not gonna quote the whole post above but I just want to quickly mention that it's misconstruing a lot of things.
For example, yes a Celesteela at full HP will beat Terrakion if it's a purely 1v1 situation but that just isn't a realistic scenario and a competent player isn't just going to blindly click CC against a healthy one. This same argument applies to stuff like Kommo-o.
On top of that, stuff like max defense hippo is generally very difficult to fit over mixed spreads, and the standard sample spread can't be considered a consistent check at all.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Hippowdon: 355-419 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yes it technically has defensive counterplay, but outside of like Tangrowth none of it is particularly reliable.
The main issue is that Terrakion finds countless opportunities due to the multitude of Pokemon it forces out with ease (Hydreigon, Chansey, Incineroar, Krookodile, Mamoswine, Nihilego, Rotom-H...) in addition to how difficult it is to revenge kill, particularly in sand (stuff like Scarf Hydreigon doesn't work too well anymore and other stuff like Noivern and Latias can be shaky) and the fact that it gets a tooon of opportunities due to numerous fantastic pivots like Slowking, Zeraora, and Rotom-H doing a great job of forcing in the Pokemon Terrakion preys upon. It just abuses the current meta far too well.
Not gonna comment on the volcarona portion bc I'm honestly too tired to read it. Just be sure to paint future posts in less of a black and white light; it's never exclusively about who wins 1v1, but rather what a Pokemon can do within the context of a metagame rather than a vacuum.
Sry if this is incoherent, 4am rants never go well.
Back with another post today! I know I'm gonna make a post talking about why terrakion and volcarona shouldn't be banned eventually so might as well get it done now. Simply put, we have a solid amount of options to keep these 2 in check to the point where they are not quickban worthy, and with options like gyarados or gengar which help beats their checks most likely to leave makes them easier to handle. Basically we have enough counter play of these mons and they'll only get worse as their checks become better with the others leaving.
Terrakion
-To begin with, terrakion has a multitude of sets it can run, being SD LO, band, and scarf as the most viable ones. Each of them have their pros- scarf can deal with faster threats, SD LO tears through teams, and band breaks through as well but without the LO damage. Yet, they all have issues. Scarf fails to break hippo and tang, while SD LO is much more vulnerable to priority as it slowly looses health. Lastly, terrak can be taken advantage of fairly easily while being locked into band. Anyway, here are some mons that can at least check 1 of its sets.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 328-386 (78 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-Hippowdon eats a +2 CC and kills back with earthquake. While hippo has low HP afterward, it has reliable recovery so its a solid check.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 220+ Def Amoonguss: 226-267 (52.4 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery -Amoongus can beat CB sets but lose to SD LO sets with some chip
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Celesteela: 277-327 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-standard defensive steela beats band and scarf, but lose to SD LO sets too
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 252-296 (78 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock -beats standard LO set and scarf, has a roll to lose to band
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 696-818 (215.4 - 253.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 294-346 (85.9 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock -Azu cant switch in, but band deals heavy damage that rocky helmet chip or LO recoil makes up, while +6 BD ends it
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Hatterene: 190-225 (59.7 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-This Hatterene set beats CB and scarf, but looses to +2 life orb.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Kommo-o: 337-398 (95.1 - 112.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO - Kommo-o is one of the best checks to terrak, beating band and scarf very easily, has a chance to lose of LO but still should be acknowledged.
252 SpA Latias Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 288-338 (89.1 - 104.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock While latias cant switch into +2 terrakion's stone edge, it is able to outspeed and threaten a OHKO with psychic. It also beats the other sets relatively easily.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 351-414 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -The GOAT rhyperiror can stomach a band or scarf CC and kill back with earthquake, but cannot switch in.
252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock -cant switch into anything but still lives a band or scarf hit and kills with bullet punch. One of the best revenge killers for this mon
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -between rocky helmet chip, LO damage, and giga drain damage, tangrowth is the best thing to use to solve your terrakion problems.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 260-307 (80.4 - 95%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock -you already know this cant switch in, but it does hefty damage to terrak and it even dies from LO chip after killing daunt
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 306-360 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock -keldeo cant switch in either, but its scarf set threatens an OHKO after rocks. Great revenge killer with scarf due to speed tying terrakion
252 Atk Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 346-408 (107.1 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO -lycanroc-dusk cant switch in but offensively it deals with terrakion that isnt scarf (what do you know scarf beats something)
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 328-388 (101.5 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO -non scarf sets lose to +1 volc, but scarf is pretty common to beat volcarona. Not the best answer but it does something.
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 328-385 (101.5 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO -havent seen this mon in ages but disguise lets you live a hit and KO back with play rough
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 289-341 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO -Ahhh good old skarm, has a chance at eating a +2 CC and then killing back with body press. Beats band and scarf of course
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 259-306 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -suicune cant switch in but beats band sets in a 1V1, looses to +2 SD LO though
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - doesn't reliably beat band all the time unless stone edge misses or scald burns, still beats scarf though. Hates megahorn
As you can see from these calculations, there are ways around terrakion despite it having 3 possible sets. Its band and scarf sets lose to so much, and while its SD+LO set is problematic, we have faster options and priority users that can beat it, plus it tends to get worn down between rocky helmet mons and LO recoil, making priority users have an easier time beating it. Terrakion just isn't something worthy quickbanning in my eyes, and i hope the council feels the same
As a side note, I noticed you did not mention Nidoqueen as a check for Terrakion. Nidoqueen checks the choice variants quite well as long as you don't switch into an EQ. Also Aegislash is the best check easily, although I understand it will probably be banned so maybe not worth bringing up.
Admittedly I did not elaborate much on Terrakion in my post because I didn't think it was in serious consideration of being banned, but it seems I was mistaken and it might get the axe. I don't really use it much, but I do hope they reconsider and let the tier thrive and reshape after Dec. 1 with minimal interference to see what happens with drops etc. Since they are almost assuredly banning Aegislash, I think that will change the meta dramatically and anything else should really wait to see how the meta looks when you don't need to take Aegislash into account in your teambuilding.
Hey everyone, it is I, councilman Adaam. A lot of people are wondering why Terrakion, and RU shitmon, is up for the chopping block when it existed pre-DLC and was fine. Also, Lycanroc was banned before but is seemingly balanced now. What gives? Here are the main reasons:
Slowbro's rise to OU frees up Megahorn for Earthquake and makes CB a lot more spammable. With Earthquake, it can muscle past a number of otherwise hard checks like Nidoqueen, Aegislash, and Galarbro.
Powercreep has sent previous good checks in G-Weezing, Palossand, and Doublade to unviability (yes they exist but cannot keep up with everything not named Terrakion). Hippowdon is a solid check but needs to be full health to eat +2 CCs.
Lycanroc could 2HKO most of the meta unboosted in DLC1 meta, but cannot do the same now that we have Amoonguss, Hippowdon, Celesteela, Tangrowth, Azumarill, Tapu Bulu, etc etc. The priority is nice, but it is not a terror that it once was. Also, Crunch is a lot less useful now that Slowbro is gone.
That said, I still will vote to not ban it. I agree with being conservative in this stage of the meta. Quickbans should be reserved for stupidly broken stuff (see the previous four mons we banned). For that reason I will only be voting to ban on Gengar and Volcarona. NP Gengar with Wisp has literally 0 coutners and can break stalls, balance, and BO in one teamslot. The speed tier is extremely clutch and only Alakazam, Zeraora, and Thundy-I naturally outspeed it (that is not a shitmon like Starmie).
Volcarona is a bit less obvious, but it is the single most restrictive mon in the builder. The variety of coverage it can run + the threat of bulky Roost sets makes any type of counterplay shaky against it. Even Lycanroc quivers in fear when it sees Volcarona paired with Lele. Offensive checks like Volcanion/Gyarados are easily outlasted by the bulky versions seen on those Hippo balances, while stuff like Kommo/Prim/Latiaspray they don't have the coverage to hit it.
Gyarados sucks and should not be banned ever, let alone be quickbanned. As for Aegislash, which a lot of people find to be the most broken of the 5, I find it manageable with how exploitable its blade form is. We do have a slew of pretty decent checks in Incineroar, Tentacruel (yes this mon checks almost every set effectively), Bisharp, Krookodile, Hydreigon, and Spdef Scizor. General fatmons too can usually stomach hits like the ever common Steela/Hippo cores. SubToxic is overrated and hard stopped by the most common mon in the tier, and offensive sets need King's Shield to avoid being sitting duck after an attack. I think its extremely good and versatile, but quickbanning it is a mistake right now.
Terrak I described above, but I do not want to quickban it for simply being super hard to switch into. It's a terrific breaker and keeps the lazy balance cores on its toes. However, CC is not too spammable with how good Ghosts and Fairies are. It's weak to all priority besides Quick Attack, and 1v1ed by a good amount of stuff. I prefer the "wait and see" with this one
Hey everyone, it is I, councilman Indigo Plateau. I haven't posted here in a while and figured this would be a great time to do so, as I probably annoyed Hogg into giving us a slate this week about 7 times a day. I think that the mons we're looking at for this slate are perfect and have been the subject of discussion for about a week or so in the council chat. I fully believe that the meta has gotten better, but it's still not enjoyable for me, which is why I was pushing so hard for a slate. On top of that, I've seen some misinformed posts regarding these mons already, so I wanted to give my own opinions having played this meta a lot.
At the top of my list is Gengar, which I was really hoping would be okay after the Blace ban, but it most definitely isn't. Adam already touched on this one but NP + WoW has no switch-ins bar Chansey (and yes, I've gone to extremes such as Heal Bell SpDef Miltank - it still loses) and beats any archetype out there. The Dark-types we have can't realiably beat it due to how strong Sludge Wave is or because they just get burned. It sucks to see Ghost-types get the boot, but when you have an incredible STAB combo + ability (Blace) or status + nearly unwallable movesets + coverage (Gengar), it's not fun to prep for or face.
Second on my list is the demon moth that any knowledgeable player knew would either get banned or suspected. Some of the council members seem split on this one, but I'm 100% on the moth swatter team. The amount of [viable] Knock users in the tier has decreased with the release of Crown Tundra DLC, and not that you'd want it to take a Knock in the first place, but this means that Volc can almost always find a way to outlast you. QD is an insanely broken move and Volc only needs to click it once to start snowballing. Tapu Lele means that usual countermeasures such as priority aren't even reliable ways of beating it, and both of these mons have incredible synergy as well, with Tapu Lele's most reliable checks being things like Steel-types, SpDef Bulu, etc, all of which Volc can freely QD on. Defensive sets are heavily underexplored right now and are very fat, even being able to comfortably eat a CB Azu Aqua Jet at >80% (or less depending on whatever benchmark you wanna hit). I've tried a lot of different small techs on my team to counter this mon (mainly sticking Rock Slide on a random mon LOL) but when you have to do this on every single team to make sure you don't lose to one single mon, that's not really a healthy sign in my eyes.
Culprit numero tres. I know that literally everyone and their grandmothers think that SubTox is the best, most consistent, broken, or w/e set, but considering I run into Celesteela in 4/5 games, the set that I've had the most success by FAR is:
Who feels the need to lose health using Sub and then poisoning something when you can just 2hko the entire tier? Counters don't exist for this mon lol:
252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 196-232 (45.4 - 53.8%)
252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 116 SpD Hippowdon: 205-243 (48.8 - 57.8%)
252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 133-157 (33.5 - 39.5%)
252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%)
-1 252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 202-238 (51.3 - 60.5%)
252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 366-432 (51.9 - 61.3%)
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Kommo-o: 141-166 (39.8 - 46.8%)
It really entertains me how every time that I use this mon and give it a free turn, even the bulkiest walls in the tier are getting 2hkoed by Spell Tag Shadow Ball. The two "best" checks to this from my experience have been Celesteela and defensive Kommo. Celesteela always gets 3hkoed with Rocks and isn't hard to wear down if you pair this with a Tentacruel (another phenomenal pokemon people should try out more) to negate its Leech Seed recovery, meaning that even if you keep it at full and use it only to check Aegi throughout the game, you can only switch in once. Kommo has seen a small dip since Blace's ban, but Flash Cannon still dents it (or CC does a respectable amount if you run Sneak > Flash). I said in council chat I'd think about this one a bit more, but the more I play with this set, the more absurd it is. I really always breathe a sigh of relief when I see SubTox and not this being used against me. Please go try it out!
Not gonna regurgitate everything that Adam said above, but tl;dr Terrak had a lot of things go its way with the drop of the DLC and it is easily better than Lycanroc right now. One thing Adam forgot to mention was that with Hippo everywhere, Terrak's already respectable bulk becomes even better, and a Terrak + Hippo core is something I've liked a lot too. Even with that being said, I'm still on the fence about this one. Yes, it has very limited switch-ins, but I want to see which direction the meta takes after we get a couple other things off the table first. Psychic Terrain does help it a good amount because it negates stuff like Azu's Aqua Jet and Sciz's BP from being able to revenge, but there are still a good chunk of things that can still stomach a hit assuming it doesn't SD. 50/50 on this one leaning dnb, will use it more the next couple of days to make up my mind.
I've used Gyara a lot and don't find it overwhelming at all. Base 125 Atk coupled with Moxie is really scary, but Celesteela being everywhere, it requiring Bounce, a terrible move, to break through Grass-types, and most importantly a terrible base 81 Speed stat make it a pretty balanced sweeper. DD sweepers have proved to be very troublesome in UU in the past, so I'm actually really excited to see one potentially stick around. This one's an easy dnb from me.
I'm on a time crunch but now that I talked about the slate, here are just some others that I do want to keep an eye on as the meta keeps developing:
Tapu Lele may surprise some and I can't wait to have Freeroamer tag me in the UU discord to tell me for the 20th time that I'm bad for thinking that Azu is a pain LOL. I wish I had the time to write about these right now but I don't, so maybe later. Not sure if I'm overstepping my boundaries by saying this, but the council also thinks that after this slate, we might feel comfortable moving into suspects and out of quickbans. We'll have to wait & see how the meta develops but I do think we're on the right path. Hope this was a nice read & cleared some things up for everyone
Made you look LOL. This pokemon really is not that bad guys, just stop being lazy and slapping one or two super effective moves on your team for it. Every time I see someone complaining about this mon it's because they stick a Zeraora or a Volcarona on their team then get mad when they get stalled out by Leech Seed >:(
And yes, everyone else on council thinks that Celesteela is fine too!
Yo quick question, so Gengar and Terrakion are RU right now, even so can they be banned on UU? And if they get banned on UU will they be usuable in RU? How do this things work?
Yo quick question, so Gengar and Terrakion are RU right now, even so can they be banned on UU? And if they get banned on UU will they be usuable in RU? How do this things work?
terrakion is stupid, we have no clear counter to terrakion besides palossand but thats so easily abusable because its weak to the common types water,grass, dark, and ghost. Let us talk about terrak first. It has no counters first off which leaves us with temporary checks which fall short of many things, such as amoonguss walling CB that is locked into eq or Close combat, but is at risk of getting OHKO'ed by SD stone edge.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 417-491 (96.7 - 113.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 144-170 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- 19.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Another one is phys def hippo who can sponge stone edges and earthquakes for days but is slammed by CC on the switch since they are mainly mixed/sp def
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 255-300 (60.7 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 325-383 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But the slightest of chip puts even max phys def hippo into +2 CC range. Or CB terrak 2hko'ing hippo after rocks
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 187-222 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The thing is that last gen we had CB scizor, and scarf krook everywhere. With lele removing scizor as a check and better grounds make krook less viable of a check. We have no clear cut besides latias as an offensive check and amoonguss and hippo as temporary checks that lose to SD and palossand is literally mandatory in order to not crumple to terrakions sets.
What I say may be wrong, so take this with a grain of salt since I have experienced terrak last gen and I know how stupid it was but it had its soft counters such as amoonguss, scarf krook to any set barring scarf, latias barring scarf, hippo barring SD, and scizor who can take one hit and BP it in return
I'm not going to really comment on the voting slate. I personally think only Gengar and Volcarona should go via QB and I would rather see something like Aegislash/Terrakion go through a suspect test. Instead, I want to talk a bit about Celesteela because it seems to be more of a hot topic than any other Pokemon.
I don't think Celesteela is that much of a defensive behemoth to the point that it's unbreakable or puts too much constraint on the builder to do so. Don't get me wrong it is an obnoxious Pokemon to play around. There is no doubt about that. From my experience, a lot of teams just slap on one Fire-type or a Magnezone and expect to auto-win against it, which imo is just lazy building. Magnezone doesn't guarantee beat defensive Celesteela because if it gets the SpD Beast Boost you lose the 1vs1, assuming it's healthy, and you can't safely hard into it because it can 2HKO you and live a specs Tbolt from full. This doesn't make Magnezone a bad means to remove Steela but you obviously have to support it a little further. For the remainder of this post, I'll mainly be focusing on the defensive set unless stated otherwise.
Psychic-Types
As far as offensive special Psychic-types go, these are the most used ones and all of them have some means of pressuring/overwhelming Celesteela in their own rights. Alakazam can break a weakened Celesteela at +2 with Focus Blast but something more people should try out is Knock Off in the last slot on 4 Attack sets. Removing Leftovers from something like Celesteela and Subtoxic Aegislash goes a long way when it comes to breaking through them. Tapu Lele can carry Thunderbolt to 2HKO but Specs Psyshocks also pressures it. I've also been using Boots sets with Nature's Madness, which can wear down Steela well. You can also consider Taunt to help shut it down. Hatterene can break with LO sets, which I think are decent in this offensive metagame especially Trick Room ones. Magic Bounce also prevents Celesteela from mindlessly spamming Leech Seed, but you can't really use this to your full advantage, unfortunately. Latias has the means to break Steela with Specs/LO Mystical Fire/Tbolt. Most of these guys can also carry Trick to screw over Celesteela from mindlessly switching into them.
God Tentacruel
This is pretty much a hard stop to Celesteela unless it is carrying Earthquake, which is rare. Otherwise, it just fishes for a burn, can remove its Lefties with Knock Off, and deny Leech Seed recovery.
Defensive walls
Most Kommo-o sets can break through Celesteela but I wanted to highlight that defensive Body Press sets can also do this job in conjunction with Taunt. Your shrug off everything else and can break through it thanks to Kommo-o's high natural bulk. Amoonguss can't beat Celesteela 1vs1 but you can PP stall it to an extent, threaten with Spore, and deny Leech Seed recovery. Tangrowth does a similar job but you can actually remove its Leftovers with Knock Off. Not too many people seem to be exploring 'bulkier' Mew sets right now but Psychic/Knock Off + Taunt + Wisp is really solid imo. Annoys offensive and defensive Pokemon alike and is a set that should be explored a bit more. Washtom endlessly pivots around Steela and threatens to cripple it with a burn.
Offensive threats
SubRoost Kyurem isn't that common from my ladder experience but this can also PP stall Celesteela pretty well. Even Choice Specs sets can overwhelm it with Ice Beam. Nidoqueen is an offensive Ground-type people should use more because it dismantles defensive cores really well. Fire Blast prevents Steela from mindlessly being able to pivot into its STAB combo because it is getting 2HKO'd otherwise. I've seen a couple of Knock Off/Corrosive Gas Nihilego, which make Celesteela's job much harder with checking it. Meteor Beam or Choice Specs sets can also pressure and eventually break it. Nasty Plot variants of Rotom-H can still act as a pivot if needed but it gives Rotom-H a better means of taking advantage of a Celesteela clicking Protect against it, which most do to potentially stall out an Overheat + get lefties recovery.
Trapped
As I mentioned at the start of this post, Magnezone can trap and remove it. You can't win in every scenario so it does need a safe switchin most of the time or for it to be chipped enough to guarantee pick it off.
Strong wallbreakers
Finally, you have the strong wallbreakers that can pressure it but I'm not going to list them all because there are a lot. Diggersby, in particular, is a hard Pokemon to switch into, and more often than not Steela is going to attempt to check it but Fire Punch absolutely blows this thing back. I could go into more detail here but it isn't hard to imagine why Pokemon like this have the means to break Celesteela.
Hopefully, this post gives some insight on sets/Pokemon you might not have considered that can help you break through Steela. I haven't listed everything as you still have other options like Knock Off Scizor for example. Perhaps when the metagame is a little more friendly too it Reuniclus will pick up again as a bulky Psychic-type that can sit in front of Steela and break it. Offensive Steela is a separate topic that I won't really get into but it is harder to wall than you would think; however, it more or less requires two turns to really get going. Knock Off Alakazam can fck with Meteor Beam variants really well. Rotom-H walls once Meteor Beam is burned and even at +2 a good amount of Choice Scarf users are still faster than it.
On another note people should use more Skarmory and Mew, Spikes are broken.
I'm not going to really comment on the voting slate. I personally think only Gengar and Volcarona should go via QB and I would rather see something like Aegislash/Terrakion go through a suspect test. Instead, I want to talk a bit about Celesteela because it seems to be more of a hot topic than any other Pokemon.
I don't think Celesteela is that much of a defensive behemoth to the point that it's unbreakable or puts too much constraint on the builder to do so. Don't get me wrong it is an obnoxious Pokemon to play around. There is no doubt about that. From my experience, a lot of teams just slap on one Fire-type or a Magnezone and expect to auto-win against it, which imo is just lazy building. Magnezone doesn't guarantee beat defensive Celesteela because if it gets the SpD Beast Boost you lose the 1vs1, assuming it's healthy, and you can't safely hard into it because it can 2HKO you and live a specs Tbolt from full. This doesn't make Magnezone a bad means to remove Steela but you obviously have to support it a little further. For the remainder of this post, I'll mainly be focusing on the defensive set unless stated otherwise.
Psychic-Types
As far as offensive special Psychic-types go, these are the most used ones and all of them have some means of pressuring/overwhelming Celesteela in their own rights. Alakazam can break a weakened Celesteela at +2 with Focus Blast but something more people should try out is Knock Off in the last slot on 4 Attack sets. Removing Leftovers from something like Celesteela and Subtoxic Aegislash goes a long way when it comes to breaking through them. Tapu Lele can carry Thunderbolt to 2HKO but Specs Psyshocks also pressures it. I've also been using Boots sets with Nature's Madness, which can wear down Steela well. You can also consider Taunt to help shut it down. Hatterene can break with LO sets, which I think are decent in this offensive metagame especially Trick Room ones. Magic Bounce also prevents Celesteela from mindlessly spamming Leech Seed, but you can't really use this to your full advantage, unfortunately. Latias has the means to break Steela with Specs/LO Mystical Fire/Tbolt. Most of these guys can also carry Trick to screw over Celesteela from mindlessly switching into them.
God Tentacruel
This is pretty much a hard stop to Celesteela unless it is carrying Earthquake, which is rare. Otherwise, it just fishes for a burn, can remove its Lefties with Knock Off, and deny Leech Seed recovery.
Defensive walls
Most Kommo-o sets can break through Celesteela but I wanted to highlight that defensive Body Press sets can also do this job in conjunction with Taunt. Your shrug off everything else and can break through it thanks to Kommo-o's high natural bulk. Amoonguss can't beat Celesteela 1vs1 but you can PP stall it to an extent, threaten with Spore, and deny Leech Seed recovery. Tangrowth does a similar job but you can actually remove its Leftovers with Knock Off. Not too many people seem to be exploring 'bulkier' Mew sets right now but Psychic/Knock Off + Taunt + Wisp is really solid imo. Annoys offensive and defensive Pokemon alike and is a set that should be explored a bit more. Washtom endlessly pivots around Steela and threatens to cripple it with a burn.
Offensive threats
SubRoost Kyurem isn't that common from my ladder experience but this can also PP stall Celesteela pretty well. Even Choice Specs sets can overwhelm it with Ice Beam. Nidoqueen is an offensive Ground-type people should use more because it dismantles defensive cores really well. Fire Blast prevents Steela from mindlessly being able to pivot into its STAB combo because it is getting 2HKO'd otherwise. I've seen a couple of Knock Off/Corrosive Gas Nihilego, which make Celesteela's job much harder with checking it. Meteor Beam or Choice Specs sets can also pressure and eventually break it. Nasty Plot variants of Rotom-H can still act as a pivot if needed but it gives Rotom-H a better means of taking advantage of a Celesteela clicking Protect against it, which most do to potentially stall out an Overheat + get lefties recovery.
Trapped
As I mentioned at the start of this post, Magnezone can trap and remove it. You can't win in every scenario so it does need a safe switchin most of the time or for it to be chipped enough to guarantee pick it off.
Strong wallbreakers
Finally, you have the strong wallbreakers that can pressure it but I'm not going to list them all because there are a lot. Diggersby, in particular, is a hard Pokemon to switch into, and more often than not Steela is going to attempt to check it but Fire Punch absolutely blows this thing back. I could go into more detail here but it isn't hard to imagine why Pokemon like this have the means to break Celesteela.
Hopefully, this post gives some insight on sets/Pokemon you might not have considered that can help you break through Steela. I haven't listed everything as you still have other options like Knock Off Scizor for example. Perhaps when the metagame is a little more friendly too it Reuniclus will pick up again as a bulky Psychic-type that can sit in front of Steela and break it. Offensive Steela is a separate topic that I won't really get into but it is harder to wall than you would think; however, it more or less requires two turns to really get going. Knock Off Alakazam can fck with Meteor Beam variants really well. Rotom-H walls once Meteor Beam is burned and even at +2 a good amount of Choice Scarf users are still faster than it.
On another note people should use more Skarmory and Mew, Spikes are broken.
Hey there, heres a quick post to summarize my thoughts on the Pokemon included in the current voting slate. This post concern my own thoughts and not the whole council..
I'd like to echo what Indigo Plateau said in his post above because I fully agree that mixed Aegislash is in my opinion impossible to deal with. The raw power, typing and the fighting coverage of Aegislash allows it to bypass almost any check to its STABs and the fact that Pursuit isn't there anymore means that Aegislash can just go back and forth on the field while dealing massive damages to the opponent. I've been using almost the same set that IP but with Life Orb > Spell Tag and max speed > max attack and it allows it to outspeed some notorious Pokemon such as Azumarill, non max speed Scizor but also most defensive staples like Incineroar, Celesteela or Skarmory (even tho that last one doesn't do shit to Aegislash). I really like this Pokemon because it's amazing but from a objective point of view, it's trully too much for the tier since we lack of real Ghost-types answers. Outside of this well known mixed set, Aegislash can really abuse its typing, stats, ability and movepool and can basically handle way too many roles in way too different ways which makes it super tough to check and to scout. For all those reasons, I voted ban.
While I struggled to make efficient team with this Pokemon I can't deny that it's pretty great and I've seen some great teams using it (including a squad for Ramolost). I think the worst thing about Gengar is how it can be punitive if you failed to scout its set. Like Aegislash, it's pretty damn versatile and some of its set can really shit on some Balanced teams thanks to Sub + WoW + Hex. On the other hand NP sets are nasty if you try to scout a choice lock sets and choice lock sets can punish opponent's team on their own thanks to Trick. While I don't think Gengar is as dumb as Aegislash, I'm still thinking that we're lacking tools to handle this Pokemon. Like Aegislash, I voted ban on Gengar.
Gonna be super brief on this one, I hate the fact that I have to run Protect on a Grass-type in order to check DD Gyarados. It's not as bad as it has been but it's still super retard in my opinion. It's in my opinion way better than Salamence as a DD user even tho it has worst speed, its coverage option are just dumb.. you can't even try to run things like Quagsire to handle it because of Power Whip. It's not even frail and can setup on some special threats lacking Electric-type coverage so yeah I know I'm a big hater on this one and I don't think it's gonna be banned but still, I voted ban.
I really believe some people underestimate Volcarona impact on UU and especially when you're making a team. It's insanely tough to check this Pokemon on paper and it forces people to run some shitty shenanigans imo (max spe def Hippowdon with Rock-type coverage e.g). I also think Quiver Dance + Roost + Fiery Dance + coverage (either Giga Drain or Psychic) is its best set by far since you don't really have to keep it as a late-game sweeper and can use it as a pivot to check some passive shits which are either lacking of Rock-type coverage or Toxic. Flame Body is also super annoying since it can punish most Pokemon that can RK it such as Azumarill or Crawdaunt meaning they're pretty much useless or really lackluster for the end of the game. Also Fiery Dance allows it to just freely spam an attack with a 50% to get a boost which allows it to bypass some checks if needed. I really hate this Pokemon because it makes teambuilding a pain in the ass and forces people to run non-optimized stuff in my opinion. I trully think the tier would be much more enjoyable and it would be way less iffy to build a team without this big moth so yeah, I voted ban.
Some people asked me in DM why this Pokemon was nominated since they didn't even saw it that much on the ladder. I think Adaam summarize the main issue on his post. That being said, I agree that Terrakion is better than ever in the current metagame but still, I decided to vote do not ban mainly because I think it's a more iffy case than the 3 others (4 if you add Gyarados which isn't an issue for most council members anyway). I think Terrakion is smth we should wait and if it's indeed to much for the tier, then we'll make a proper suspect test on it.
Quick side comment :
I think Mamoswine is just incredible right now thanks to its Ground + Ice coverage. I trully think this Pokemon is amazing right now and can really tears apart most common cores. Its access to Knock Off is just incredible and allows it to pressure its best switch-in (basically Rotom-H/W or Celesteela to a lesser extent). Definitively an incredible trend atm that you should try if it's not already the case. Most teams as multiple weaknesses to this big boi.
The fact that everyone seems to think they know the REAL best Aegislash set speaks to the power and versatility of this mon. Each of its sets have very few checks and counters, which are usually beaten by another one of its sets, and its typing gives it numerous opportunities to come in for free and have its way. Sp Def Steel/Poison types are decent universal checks but they are fallible to a potential set in one way or another, so imo it's too strong for the tier
Not broken imo, at +1 speed it it still outsped and can be revenge killed by majority of scarfers in the tier assuming you get a hit off as it DDs, at +1 attack it still isn't strong enough to ohko a lot of pokemon without a SE hit (tho its coverage is decent) in which case a switch out and trading a hit still leaves it open to revenge, sub sets lack coverage to sweep, non sub sets are vulnerable to status and priority(ish), and it is unable to run all the coverage it wants at the same time so there is usually something it can't kill
So imo there's always something holding Gyara back from being broken
(If we're talking about broken under veil/screens I feel like that's a whole different discussion)
That this thing is RU while Cobalion is UU is quite possibly the most disrespectful thing I've ever come across in all my years, however I don't think Terrakion is broken as of now
He hits a great speed tier and hits like a truck with band (the banded set is the only reason this ban is being considered I assume), and support from hippo and lele can push it to even greater heights, but the choiced nature is what keeps it manageable imo
Phys Def Hippo x any solid fighting resist/immune can handle it reasonably well without incredible prediction skills, Aegislash is incredibly common and forces Terrakion to have to consider EQ everytime, which is considerably less threatening, and if paired with Tapu Bulu (another good check) Aegislash needs not even fear that. Phys Def Tang scouts safely and pivots, phys def amoon comfortably takes all but edge and pivots
So imo it is reasonable (tho not easy) to build cores that can handle it without resorting to sandcastles for bulkier teams, and the weakness to common priority and CC drops keep it manageable for more offensive teams
However if both Gengar (A huge deterrent to locking in to CC) and Aegislash (Prominent check) leave then it could be worth another look
Volc
Probably broken, definitely annoying. Sets up in the face of half the tier then outspeeds and ohkos the other half, a mon mostly kept in check by priority probably ain't too healthy
Gengar
Unsure, I see the arguments but idk that I see it as more than just really strong atm
Alright y'all, slight delay in getting all the votes and it was close enough that we needed every voter. Before we get to the votes, though, would like to officially welcome Ramolost to the council!
Alright onto the votes. It was a tight one, but after a tense voting session, Gengar and Volcarona have been banned, while Aegislash, Gyarados and Terrakion remain UU!
MartyThe Immortal please ban Gengar and Volcarona from the UU ladder.
A bit short on time so I'll post the full vote reasons later, but didn't want to delay the results any further. Thanks to all who voted and commented!
Alright onto the votes. It was a tight one, but after a tense voting session, Gengar and Volcarona have been banned, while Aegislash, Gyarados and Terrakion remain UU!
one day i will get a good gif of u
