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★ np: SS UU Stage 8 - Highway to Hell
- Thread starter kumiko
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terrakion, suicune, thundurus, tangrowth, alola ninetales, toxtricity, scolipede, obstagooon, sylveon, togekiss forgot those to
Alright, y'all, we've waited long enough. Been discussing with the Council what the best action is, and we've decided to go ahead and move forward with our first slate of votes. These will be council votes, but I'm posting about it here so that folks can give their feedback before we vote.
Our first slate of votes will be Blacephalon, Dracozolt, Hawlucha and Weavile.
Sporting the second-highest Special Attack in the tier, an excellent Speed, a great offensive typing and an ability that allows it to easily snowball, Blacephalon has easily been one of the most called-for bans. While its defenses are sorely lacking, it more than makes up for it in offensive firepower, and only a handful of 'mons can stomach the attacks fired off by this thing. And with no Pursuit to punish choice-locked sets, Scarf and Specs sets have been powering through offensive and defensive teams alike, while Substitute sets pose a huge problem for stall.
Previously UUBL on the strength of its Hustle-boosted Bolt Beak, Dracozolt is back and better than ever with access to Sand Rush. Pairing good mixed attacking stats, a 170 BP STAB move, decent bulk and surprisingly good coverage with (checks notes) 546 Speed might seem like a good idea, but luckily this thing is balanced by... yeah, who am I kidding. Dracozolt is a monster with the ability to punch through the vast majority of its checks, the only real exceptions being Hippowdon and Rhyperior.
Another previous UUBL entry, Hawlucha gained some excellent teammates in Tapu Bulu and Tapu Lele, allowing it the ability to set up and sweep without relying on subpar methods such as Pincurchin or Power Herb Sky Attack. Fighting/Flying is an incredible STAB combo, especially when your STAB attacks have 110+ base power, and with Swords Dance to boost its mediocre attack into the stratosphere and Unburden to make sure it outpaces the entire tier, it doesn't take much for Hawlucha to completely turn games around.
This is one we haven't talked about a ton, but has been coming up as a major threat to watch among the UU Council. In particular, Weavile's access to the new physical Ice attack Triple Axel is what drives its placement on the ban slate. If all three attacks hit, Triple Axel has a cumulative 120 base power, enough to punch through any defensive wall that does not resist it. Even max/max Skarmory finds itself 2HKO'd from a pair of 3-hit axels fired off by CB Weavile. Combined with a blazing fast base 125 Speed, the eminently spammable Knock Off and great priority in Ice Shard, Weavile was already shaping up to be a major threat with a Choice Band or Boots and Swords Dance. The council was already discussing whether or not to include it on a potential voting slate, but with one of its few consistent checks (Buzzwole) rising to OU, we decided it was worth inclusion on this initial slate.
Expect results of votes in ~24 hours, and if you have opinions on these four 'mons or the state of UU in general, please don't hesitate to voice them!
Our first slate of votes will be Blacephalon, Dracozolt, Hawlucha and Weavile.
Sporting the second-highest Special Attack in the tier, an excellent Speed, a great offensive typing and an ability that allows it to easily snowball, Blacephalon has easily been one of the most called-for bans. While its defenses are sorely lacking, it more than makes up for it in offensive firepower, and only a handful of 'mons can stomach the attacks fired off by this thing. And with no Pursuit to punish choice-locked sets, Scarf and Specs sets have been powering through offensive and defensive teams alike, while Substitute sets pose a huge problem for stall. Previously UUBL on the strength of its Hustle-boosted Bolt Beak, Dracozolt is back and better than ever with access to Sand Rush. Pairing good mixed attacking stats, a 170 BP STAB move, decent bulk and surprisingly good coverage with (checks notes) 546 Speed might seem like a good idea, but luckily this thing is balanced by... yeah, who am I kidding. Dracozolt is a monster with the ability to punch through the vast majority of its checks, the only real exceptions being Hippowdon and Rhyperior. Another previous UUBL entry, Hawlucha gained some excellent teammates in Tapu Bulu and Tapu Lele, allowing it the ability to set up and sweep without relying on subpar methods such as Pincurchin or Power Herb Sky Attack. Fighting/Flying is an incredible STAB combo, especially when your STAB attacks have 110+ base power, and with Swords Dance to boost its mediocre attack into the stratosphere and Unburden to make sure it outpaces the entire tier, it doesn't take much for Hawlucha to completely turn games around. This is one we haven't talked about a ton, but has been coming up as a major threat to watch among the UU Council. In particular, Weavile's access to the new physical Ice attack Triple Axel is what drives its placement on the ban slate. If all three attacks hit, Triple Axel has a cumulative 120 base power, enough to punch through any defensive wall that does not resist it. Even max/max Skarmory finds itself 2HKO'd from a pair of 3-hit axels fired off by CB Weavile. Combined with a blazing fast base 125 Speed, the eminently spammable Knock Off and great priority in Ice Shard, Weavile was already shaping up to be a major threat with a Choice Band or Boots and Swords Dance. The council was already discussing whether or not to include it on a potential voting slate, but with one of its few consistent checks (Buzzwole) rising to OU, we decided it was worth inclusion on this initial slate.Expect results of votes in ~24 hours, and if you have opinions on these four 'mons or the state of UU in general, please don't hesitate to voice them!
List seems eminently reasonable as a starting point. The stuff that wrecks metas are Pokemon that are too fast to be faster than and too strong to take two hits from. Sand Rush Dracozolt and Scarf Blacephalon are both very difficult to counter without packing specific checks and are just completely unfun to play against. The meta is so hyper hyper offense right now that these are the sort of bans that need to be made just to be able to make an honest evaluation of where everything else is at.
I actually would personally advocate a slow approach to banning tons more Pokemon past this. The power level has escalated so much that it will take a bit to find a new normal - the old UU is dead and it's never coming back, as we can we by all the stuff that just dropped to RU, which includes a bunch of A tier Pokemon from two months ago. Iterative testing is going to be the name of the game here, just as if we had started a completely new generation all over again.
I actually would personally advocate a slow approach to banning tons more Pokemon past this. The power level has escalated so much that it will take a bit to find a new normal - the old UU is dead and it's never coming back, as we can we by all the stuff that just dropped to RU, which includes a bunch of A tier Pokemon from two months ago. Iterative testing is going to be the name of the game here, just as if we had started a completely new generation all over again.
All 4 are monsters, havent seen weavile so cant comment. But, blacephalon snowballs through teams that don't have a so called wall in a chansey which is sub CM fother, while any check is at risk of getting 2hko from fire blast, shadow ball, or psyshock. THis makes it a beast when it comes to being a nuke and no team is safe against it, let your hydreigon take to much, its a goner. Dracozolt wasnt such a problem cuz I had helmet tang, phys def moongus, and hippo slapped on every team and usually a combination of a bulky grass and hippo was used, but I can understand how team restricting it is and how much it can sweep with 5 turns in sand and an effective 255 BP move to slap on opponents and coming of LO.Hawlucha, well before DLC it wasnt as good due to bad setters, now lele and bulu arent dead weight and can do work on their own so Lucha is also "bulky for the tier" due to terrain seeds and lack of need for speed EV's. Since it can run adamant it can snowball easily because barring aegislash the tier goes unresisted to its stabs, and aegislash is clapped by throat chop after an SD as well
PS: dont ban victini, i hate stall
PS: dont ban victini, i hate stall
I voted ban on all 4 of the things we're voting on pretty swiftly. I don't think I really need to explain why, Hogg's post nails it and anyone who's been playing the tier actively lately knows that while these four are technically manageable, they're just ridiculous to prepare for in the builder, particularly for defensive teams (I've been running Rest Helmet Azu for Weavile on stall...) but they can be real headaches for offense too. They're just not really fair. Instead, I'm going to give my thoughts on some other Pokemon that are potentially broken.
Gyarados has calmed down a bit since I first started playing with it / against it. It's not quite as ridiculous as it was day 1. I still think it miiight be on the silly end, though; it's really bulky, has amazing coverage, and the snowball potential is just... concerning. Now that Buzzwole is gone it doesn't really need Bounce as much either - it beats Amoonguss with Ice Fang which is generally superior coverage, though it does miss out on Tangrowth. I think it's fine for now but it's on the radar for me.
It does Volcarona things. I don't think it's actually that good in practice but accounting for this thing in the builder is a massive headache, with stuff like Scarf Stone Edge Keldeo and Payapa Nihilego showing up just to have a better chance against it. That's not necessarily unhealthy - it's just metagame development after all - but I fear it may be a little too much as time goes on. Thankfully none of the Pokemon we lost were particularly good against it (Skewda in rain obviously destroys it but it wasn't common anyway) so it hasn't gotten immediately better with the shift like Weavile or Gyarados. Something to keep an eye on, but fine for now.
(pretend this looks better)
Azu is NUTS and it cleans up most games ridiculously easy. CB has shown up as something that really doesn't have reliable counterplay thanks to Ice Punch, and Belly Drum is as ridiculous as ever. I personally think it's healthy and that every tier needs a good breaker like this, and it's balanced out by a lot of things - poor Speed, inability to hit everything it wants, being prediction reliant, etc. on top of its vulnerability to entry hazards and only decent bulk, which separates it from something like Dracozolt which just has everything. I like Azu a lot but I can't deny it might get overbearing very quickly, so it's something to keep an eye on.
I don't feel too strongly on any of these and I don't think they're broken by any means yet, but concerns have been brought up so they're worth keeping an eye on.
I like the current state of the tier and I think it'll be really good after the current wave of bans (assuming things actually get banned). Hopefully you guys are having fun laddering, can't wait to see this meta get developed further in UU Snake!!
Gyarados has calmed down a bit since I first started playing with it / against it. It's not quite as ridiculous as it was day 1. I still think it miiight be on the silly end, though; it's really bulky, has amazing coverage, and the snowball potential is just... concerning. Now that Buzzwole is gone it doesn't really need Bounce as much either - it beats Amoonguss with Ice Fang which is generally superior coverage, though it does miss out on Tangrowth. I think it's fine for now but it's on the radar for me.
It does Volcarona things. I don't think it's actually that good in practice but accounting for this thing in the builder is a massive headache, with stuff like Scarf Stone Edge Keldeo and Payapa Nihilego showing up just to have a better chance against it. That's not necessarily unhealthy - it's just metagame development after all - but I fear it may be a little too much as time goes on. Thankfully none of the Pokemon we lost were particularly good against it (Skewda in rain obviously destroys it but it wasn't common anyway) so it hasn't gotten immediately better with the shift like Weavile or Gyarados. Something to keep an eye on, but fine for now.
(pretend this looks better)Azu is NUTS and it cleans up most games ridiculously easy. CB has shown up as something that really doesn't have reliable counterplay thanks to Ice Punch, and Belly Drum is as ridiculous as ever. I personally think it's healthy and that every tier needs a good breaker like this, and it's balanced out by a lot of things - poor Speed, inability to hit everything it wants, being prediction reliant, etc. on top of its vulnerability to entry hazards and only decent bulk, which separates it from something like Dracozolt which just has everything. I like Azu a lot but I can't deny it might get overbearing very quickly, so it's something to keep an eye on.
I don't feel too strongly on any of these and I don't think they're broken by any means yet, but concerns have been brought up so they're worth keeping an eye on.
I like the current state of the tier and I think it'll be really good after the current wave of bans (assuming things actually get banned). Hopefully you guys are having fun laddering, can't wait to see this meta get developed further in UU Snake!!
Goddammit Regigas, just fall to PU already
Gonna give my two cents regarding the first slate mons and others I think the council should keep an eye on.
I'm glad this thing is probably going holy moly. At the start it didn't seem too broken for me because of all the Hippos running around, but if the oposing team didn't have a ground-type, Zolt won games like it was nothing. Unless you had a Choice Scarfer with a strong move or super effective one, Zolt would also destroy it, because it had good bulk, meaning it lived a lot of hits, and its typing wans't bad either. LO + hazards did chip it a bit, but it only needed to come into the field like once to start wreaking havoc.
If you don't have a fat special wall like Mantine or Chansey or a Dark-type like Incin and Hydra, good bye. Fire Blast and Shadow Ball are very good coverage and Trick lets it cripple the fat walls I mentioned. Under Psychic Terrain, it's a monster because it laughs in the face of Bisharp, Lycan-D, Mimikyu, Aegi, and Azu trying to get priority hits.
IMO this is the most broken mon out of the mons mentioned. As long as you play carefully to make sure your terrain is up and you weaken things like Aegislash, Hawlucha after a SD would cleanly OHKO a lot of stuff and 2HKO Hippo, defensive Celesteela and Skarm. After Unburden, it's speed was the highest in the tier and that was without max investment, meaning you could put the rest in HP and afford to run Adamant in place of Jolly. The seed boost in SpDef helped it live an Ice Beam from LO Nidoking and a Tbolt from Nihilego both after rocks damage.
Sadly, I didn't get to use it before it was gone, and I never saw it on the ladder, so I don't really have much to say other than that a Triple Axel from CB Weavile sounds scary and Knock Off is as strong as ever. 125 speed is blazingly fast too, so I can see why it would be up for the slate even without Pursuit.
V-Create is a nuke and destroys basically everything, and even resists take a big chunk. Bolt Strike lets it threaten Cune, Grass Knot does a lot to Hippo, U-turn lets it generate momentum and keep the game on your side. I don't see Tini as a huge problem, mainly due to it having to pick between HDB and CB/CS, but V-Create without a CB is still crazy strong, and not being locked lets it keep momentum, so maybe HDB would be the way to go. I'd still keep an eye on it.
Idk, Nihilego checks it, but Psychic still does a good chunk. Scarf Edge Keldeo became a thing to check it which is just funny to me lol. Nihilego is its best check and can always threaten it out with Power Gem, but switching Nihi in can be scary because of its poor physical bulk and weakness to Spikes. Missing Meteor Beam sucks and you have to run power Gem otherwise if you don't want to risk the miss. I still think it will probably rise to OU or be banned through a suspect test, but only time will tell.
I totally support the potential banning of Zolt, Lucha, and Blace. Weavile idk. I'm looking forward to the next months as UU develops. And we got Bulu, yay!
I'm glad this thing is probably going holy moly. At the start it didn't seem too broken for me because of all the Hippos running around, but if the oposing team didn't have a ground-type, Zolt won games like it was nothing. Unless you had a Choice Scarfer with a strong move or super effective one, Zolt would also destroy it, because it had good bulk, meaning it lived a lot of hits, and its typing wans't bad either. LO + hazards did chip it a bit, but it only needed to come into the field like once to start wreaking havoc.
If you don't have a fat special wall like Mantine or Chansey or a Dark-type like Incin and Hydra, good bye. Fire Blast and Shadow Ball are very good coverage and Trick lets it cripple the fat walls I mentioned. Under Psychic Terrain, it's a monster because it laughs in the face of Bisharp, Lycan-D, Mimikyu, Aegi, and Azu trying to get priority hits.
IMO this is the most broken mon out of the mons mentioned. As long as you play carefully to make sure your terrain is up and you weaken things like Aegislash, Hawlucha after a SD would cleanly OHKO a lot of stuff and 2HKO Hippo, defensive Celesteela and Skarm. After Unburden, it's speed was the highest in the tier and that was without max investment, meaning you could put the rest in HP and afford to run Adamant in place of Jolly. The seed boost in SpDef helped it live an Ice Beam from LO Nidoking and a Tbolt from Nihilego both after rocks damage.
Sadly, I didn't get to use it before it was gone, and I never saw it on the ladder, so I don't really have much to say other than that a Triple Axel from CB Weavile sounds scary and Knock Off is as strong as ever. 125 speed is blazingly fast too, so I can see why it would be up for the slate even without Pursuit.
V-Create is a nuke and destroys basically everything, and even resists take a big chunk. Bolt Strike lets it threaten Cune, Grass Knot does a lot to Hippo, U-turn lets it generate momentum and keep the game on your side. I don't see Tini as a huge problem, mainly due to it having to pick between HDB and CB/CS, but V-Create without a CB is still crazy strong, and not being locked lets it keep momentum, so maybe HDB would be the way to go. I'd still keep an eye on it.
Idk, Nihilego checks it, but Psychic still does a good chunk. Scarf Edge Keldeo became a thing to check it which is just funny to me lol. Nihilego is its best check and can always threaten it out with Power Gem, but switching Nihi in can be scary because of its poor physical bulk and weakness to Spikes. Missing Meteor Beam sucks and you have to run power Gem otherwise if you don't want to risk the miss. I still think it will probably rise to OU or be banned through a suspect test, but only time will tell.
I totally support the potential banning of Zolt, Lucha, and Blace. Weavile idk. I'm looking forward to the next months as UU develops. And we got Bulu, yay!
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Actually, bans haven't happened yet! I've given the council up to 24 hours to submit their votes, so while they might happen early if everyone gets them in fast, it could be tomorrow before we see any results. That previous post was just to let everyone know what the council would be voting on in its first slate. I do get the impression that most council members are leaning toward banning the whole slate, but if you think any deserve to stay, you should definitely voice that!
I already made a post about prospective bans in an effort to bring up a counterpoint to not banning them (except something like Hawlucha that has no counterpoint). But I never mentioned Weavile there because I didn't think it was on the radar, so I'll just keep it quick with my thoughts here:
I understand why the council is considering banning Weavile - banded Weavile destroys almost everything. But I think this is a bit premature to ban it so quickly. It has not gotten much use on ladder (5.22% only) and a lot of the counterplay to Weavile has yet to be explored. It may end up being totally bonkers and too much to handle, but I don't think we are accounting for it much in teambuilding because of the other things we have to account for. There DOES exist counterplay to Weavile if we take the time to build for it. A bulky water like Suicune takes minimal damage from even a banded Triple Axel, for example. A Skarmory with Rocky Helmet makes it lose half of its HP with a Triple Axel and then it's basically dead. Choice sets can revenge KO'd by Primarina usually. Scarfers OHKO it. Accelrock Lycan OHKO's it. Again, I am NOT saying it shouldn't get banned, I just think we may be jumping the gun a little too early here. Even if it gets banned later, we should explore the counterplay to it a bit more first. But probably nobody will be that upset if it gets banned.
I also want to echo what Tyrith said above - the old UU is dead and never coming back, so a slow approach to the banning of future things I think is best. It's better to fully test some things now to see how we can shape this new UU meta.
I understand why the council is considering banning Weavile - banded Weavile destroys almost everything. But I think this is a bit premature to ban it so quickly. It has not gotten much use on ladder (5.22% only) and a lot of the counterplay to Weavile has yet to be explored. It may end up being totally bonkers and too much to handle, but I don't think we are accounting for it much in teambuilding because of the other things we have to account for. There DOES exist counterplay to Weavile if we take the time to build for it. A bulky water like Suicune takes minimal damage from even a banded Triple Axel, for example. A Skarmory with Rocky Helmet makes it lose half of its HP with a Triple Axel and then it's basically dead. Choice sets can revenge KO'd by Primarina usually. Scarfers OHKO it. Accelrock Lycan OHKO's it. Again, I am NOT saying it shouldn't get banned, I just think we may be jumping the gun a little too early here. Even if it gets banned later, we should explore the counterplay to it a bit more first. But probably nobody will be that upset if it gets banned.
I also want to echo what Tyrith said above - the old UU is dead and never coming back, so a slow approach to the banning of future things I think is best. It's better to fully test some things now to see how we can shape this new UU meta.
Sorry for the lack of substance here but I would like to second Mantis' opinion on weavile. It has mostly flown under the radar these last 2 weeks and i think that once the broken 3 are gone we can find much more counterplay to this thing. While i do expect this thing to go, I also agree it should probably be on the next slate. As for the other mons, gyara has a wide array of coverage and snowball options, victini is a literal nuke, volc can be checked but personally the thing that pushes it for me is the flame body burn chance, which means physical attacking mons like zeraora, azumarill, crawdaunt, lycanroc-dusk, and salamence risk a burn and being screwed the whole game. So yeah, overall ban dracozolt, blacephalon, and hawlucha, keep weavile for the next slate as its mostly gone under the radar and we should explore more options for it, and stuff like gyarados, volcarona, and victini all still look to be problematic so we should keep an eye on them.
Ok, I'm gonna talk about the voting.
The Things That Should Be Banned
The Things That Should Be Banned
Blacephalon is pretty dumb. Scarf can so easily sweep late game incredibly easily without Azumarill or Lycanroc-Dusk (which dropped to RU which means even less usage). Specs is a complete nuke that is incredibly difficult to switch into. Not to mention Trick ruins Kommo-o as well as Rotom-Wash. POV: You switch in your Chansey to absorb Flamethrower. And then it subs up and Calm Minds in your face. GG. Get this the hell out of here.
So originally I wasn't a big fan of Dracozolt. Great ground types such as Nidoking where roaming. Electric resists like Rotom-Heat could eat just about everything. Then I made a sand team. (outdated now) Holy Shit. Its coverage is so big that it can just kill its counters. Bulu? Aerial Ace. Nidoking? Earthquake. Rotom-Heat? Stone Edge. The fact that it doesn't have to lock into a move too just kills a lot of counter play. AND, because of Sand Rush, no sand damage. Also yeah, Bolt Beak is dumb. Too fast, too strong, too much coverage. UUBL.
The Not So Sure About
I have not seen a single Weavile on Ladder. People keep saying Choice Band Triple Axel is dumb, I don't like band. Knock isn't nearly as spammable, much easier to play around but that's not the point. I feel like every single scarfer can revenge it because of its frailty which isn't a problem for the other 3 (speed boosting cm Blacephalon). Yeah Triple Axel is really god damn strong, but its typing and frailty is just too much for me. Also you have the problem of Low Kick for steels like Cobalion and Bisharp or Poison Jab for Primarina.
The Other Threats I Think Should Be Looked At
Aegislash is pretty dumb. Stance Change is as broken as ever. Sub Toxic, Specs, King Shield 3 attacks, and SD. Even with a very shallow movepool this thing is an unpredictable machine. I've had the most trouble with King Shield 3 Attacks, being bulky, while offensive at the same time. It always can hit like a truck or save your ass from a rampaging Hawlucha at will. UUBL for sure.
Victini used V-Create! 100% lost. The opposing Kyurem fainted! Do I really have to explain this one.
Volcarona is an interesting one. Volcarona in UU is a sight to see BUT, It can't hit a lot super-effectively and it struggles to pick up KO's. You need multiple dances to actually kill neutral targets and with the likes of Azumarill running around revenge killing can easily happen. Not Sure.
Sun is so dumb. Great utility in Torkoal. The Massive sweeping threats of Volcarona and Venusaur. And the absolute nuke of Victini and Charizard. Also if you want to wear the abusers down with hazards, Hatterene isn't hard to fit. If Dracozolt is banned, sun will for sure rise. For the 3rd time, NO VENUSAUR STOP 6-0ING ME.
Did you know Tapu Lele is just a fancy way of saying UUBL? Odd isn't it. Jokes aside this thing is nuts. Scarf revenges threats like Gyarados, Haxorus, Azumarill, and Bisharp. Psychic Terrain also toys with so much of the metagame removing priority as a way to beat it. Specs also hits like a truck and no walling that set. You think your niche Bronzong is checking? Shadow Ball. Celesteela? Thunderbolt. Begone Please
Celesteela is a big if for me. At the same time it walls so much Pokemon like Nidoking and Tapu Lele run techs like Thunderbolt and Fire Blast respectively. Also a offensive set can be REALLY scary. I don't think it's overwhelming but I wouldn't be surprised if a suspect test would be called.
Not Sure.
Azumarill is also a big if for me. Belly Drum, Huge Power, and priority sounds like broken but in practice, Jet just doesn't cut it. You really need Adamant so your max speed is 199. That outspeeds Amoongus (which scares it out), Chansey, Glasterier (which is always on Trick Room so not really), Hatterene, Hippowdon, Marowak-Alola ( which is again only in Trick Room), and Stakataka. Not impressive. I feel like banded is good put can be played around. Not sure.
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Wow. I am legitimately surprised not even one of the obviously busted mons we got at the beginning of the month rose to OU by usage, even if Buzzwole might have been too much for the tier eventually, like it was last gen, if UU ever got the chance to settle post-DLC. All of the currently looked at mons being voted on deserve it, though as much as I'm not an offense-oriented person (and will miss my easy wins with Dracozolt), I think if Weavile goes, then it should maybe be retested (much, much) later. Of the four mons, it's the only one that I could see maybe being balanced somewhere down the line even though almost every time I've run into it's brutally murdered me due to how stupid strong Triple Axel is when it actually hits.
Not much else say for now given everything that needs to be done, especially given it seems likely that Victini doubtless ends up next on the chopping block like it deserves after these four are voted on. I do have to wonder what Buzzwole, Nidoking, and Barraskewda leaving does for the tier though. At the very least, the last one gives Rain the illusion of being more bearable now that it no longer has access to the literally fastest mon in the game, and Buzzwole leaving does put us down another bulky mon to stop some of the onslaught even if said mon was a physically offensive threat itself.
Not much else say for now given everything that needs to be done, especially given it seems likely that Victini doubtless ends up next on the chopping block like it deserves after these four are voted on. I do have to wonder what Buzzwole, Nidoking, and Barraskewda leaving does for the tier though. At the very least, the last one gives Rain the illusion of being more bearable now that it no longer has access to the literally fastest mon in the game, and Buzzwole leaving does put us down another bulky mon to stop some of the onslaught even if said mon was a physically offensive threat itself.
First thing I said when I saw this on the voting slate was that I literally had seen 0 of it on ladder at all, despite like it obviously seeming crazy on paper atm with it gaining Triple Axel. Made it my mission today to play with Weavile a bunch to really get a feel for just how crazy it is myself instead of just going off assumptions though.
So yea Triple Axel + Knock is an absolutely deadly combination, and we lost the best defensive answer to it in Buzzwole. Just looking at a lot of my personal teams and other ones I've seen you can really notice that a lot of teams do just end up relying on stuff like Scarf Jirachi, Mach Punch Conk / BP Scizor to revenge it, while all of these except phys def scizors are extremely vulnerable and cannot switch in at all. We do have some slight defensive counterplay still in Primarina, but a lot of Primarina aren't even Rest talk atm and CB sets can easily push their way through due to the absurd power of Triple Axel once Prim has been knocked.
Personally I highly support a ban of weavile here, this incredible combination of speed + highly powerful STABs that are practically unresisted is absolutely deadly and leaves you relying mostly on offensive counterplay to a Pokemon that just ends up getting far too many opportunities due to its positive matchups versus loads of great Pokemon like Hydreigon, Latias, Aegislash, Kommo-o, Hippowdon etc, especially when combined with the absolutely plentiful Pivot support options we have for it rn, eg. Rotom-heat / Victini that can bring this stuff in. This is even more punishing when you consider stuff like Scarf Hydreigon / Latias would otherwise be great options but leave you very Weavile weak unless you can pack other checks somewhere. It is held back respectively by the awkward removal situation we have right now for CB sets and by the lack of immediate power on SD boots sets, but these are both pretty easy to circumvent through usage of Hatterene and/or HW and the many forced switches you do respectively, and I feel its too much for the tier in its current state.
Dracozolt ban is really a no brainer for me. The severe lack of checks it has is absolutely absurd, and mixed LO sets really push this to the next level by punishing any chip on Hippowdon and Rhyperior and letting you easily get through Tapu Bulu, at the cost of some Bolt Beak power (which is still crazy powerful even then). Again it also has no shortage of issues of getting into play either with current great support for it in stuff like special boots victini, and even offers a level of defensive utility with the decent bulk and typing that lets it check stuff like Volcarona / Gyarados. The counterplay to Dracozolt is too constrictive imo and especially severely punishes the use of any ground type other than these two.
While defensive counterplay to Blacephalon definitely exists, eg. Kommo-o, Incineroar, Chansey, Hydreigon, two of these are already awkward cases due to Psychic for clanger and only really working on spdef Hydrei sets, while Chansey can also just be tricked and Incin easily worn into 2hko range, and I definitely believe Blacephalon is too much for the tier right now.
It really made up for Chandelure's greatest weakness in its poor speed, and is one of the most punishing and constricting Pokemon in the builder due to outspeeding a vast amount of the tier basically forcing very specific Ghost-resists unless you want to rely on scarfers / latias / priority from aegi to constantly revenge kill it, while it can just freely switch out and decimate you again later. Severe constrictveness on teambuilding and the combination of absurd power, great stabs, and good enough speed tier to threaten way more stuff directly than say chandelure makes it too much for the tier in my eyes.
Hawlucha is definitely still much for the tier imo. Having two terrain setters now gives it some more choice and freedom in terms of what it's being run on, eg. fitting on both Psychic terrain teams with Volcarona etc, or Tapu bulu teams where the Grassy Seed helps protect it from a lot of otherwise counterplay like Mamo, while Hawlucha retains incredible cleaning potential and the ability to get around all of its standard checks, Taunt easily stopping Whirlwind hippo, and Throat Chop + Psychic seed putting a stop to Aegislash, leaving you rolling a dice in terms of whether your checks actually work to it unless you happen to double up. Hawlucha has absolutely no issue whatsoever cleaning up after the incredible teammates like Gyarados / Volcarona / Salamence that you'd expect to see with it have finished breaking, and has far too limited counterplay that typically only works versus certain Hawlucha varieties, making it far too much in my eyes.
hs
Banned deucer.
Hi, it's been a time since I haven't made one of these, and this is a meta I've been very familiar with, so I would like to share some of my thoughts, notably about Weavile since not many people are familiarized with using or facing it, and it hasn't been brought up to this thread.
Weavile @ Choice Band / Heavy-Duty-Boots
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick / Swords Dance
Alright, so if any of you have laddered, for at least the past week, you might have seen a maniac running either Block Mew stall or this peculiar Weavile team
composed by my friend Highways which consists of SR SDef Jirachi, AV Bulu, Scarf Keldeo, DD Protect Kommo-o, Defog Heattom, and Band Weavile, and that was me. I have played an average amount of ~354 matches with it, and I have noticed some stuff in my run about the latter mon.
First of all, I'm going to expose some of the ''counterplay'' we have for it, as I scroll through the uu list on the teambuilder and analyze them one-by-one:
Azumarill is very good and can take any hits from Weavile and fire off a powerful Play Rough or an Aqua Jet, which does around 60-70%. However, it does get 2HKO'd by Triple Axel in 99.6% of the situations, and this is just a guaranteed one when you take into account hazards damage: 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 168-198 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Bisharp resists any attacks Weavile may throw off due to its typing, in theory. In reality, it gets 2HKO'd on the switch in as well: 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 138-165 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- approx. 2HKO), and it can't even 2HKO back with Sucker Punch.
Buzzwole, however, can eat any hits comfortably, and Roost off the damage: 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 174-207 (41.6 - 49.5%) -- approx. 3HKO), but. but. if you have been following the tier shifts lately, you will realize that this will not be a Weavile check anymore, as it's nowhere close to coming back to the tier again.
Cobalion is a sketchy one. Although it possesses a really good physical bulk, it can't switch in on Weavile multiple times, as it gets 3HKO'd by Triple Axel and without Rocky Helmet it can't punish the ice hamster back, and it also doesn't have any forms of recovery. Not to say it gets destroyed by Low Kick if it's not Chople Berry: 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cobalion: 296-350 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock).
Conkeldurr can retaliate with a STAB Mach Punch that(obviously) OHKOes Weavile. Not a great switch-in though, as Knock Off basically cancels Conk, and Triple Axel does a good chunk( 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 291-345 (82.9 - 98.2%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) <- notice that it's OHKO'd after the burn damage.
Crawdaunt falls under the same category as Bisharp.
Diancie dies to Knock Off + Triple Axel or 2 Triple Axels( 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery).
Next, we have Golisopod, which hasn't been really common on the ladder, but it's a good answer to Weavile, as it does switch in on any attacks but Knock Off(252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 105-126 (30 - 36%) -- approx. 22.5% chance to 3HKO), and it's faster with a priority First Impression. Nonetheless, you get heavily crippled if you get your boots removed, and you're basically dead after Rocks.
The same applies to Incineroar, as it doesn’t appreciate having its Boots knocked off. But Triple Axel doesn't even come close to a 3HKO and Low Kick doesn't always 2HKO(-1 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 180-214 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO), but I have some replays in which I stayed in to click Triple Axel again as they chose to click Knock Off and Pickpocket came into action, as I stole Inci's boots and it got 2HKO'd the next time it came in and it 6-0d anyway. So you can't really punish it without a massive loss of momentum in using Overheat and if you Parting Shot as they opt to stay in too you get 2HKO’d the next time, so good luck. Flare Blitz just helps the Weavile user more, so I won't even bother mentioning.
ORAS moment. So, Keldeo is one of the most proficient Weavile checks atm I'd say, as its typing combined with it's not-so-bad bulk, and equipped with a Choice Scarf, allows it to take any hits from Weavile, be faster, and OHKO it back. AND IT'S VIABLE. Nothing is perfect in this dangerous world we have rn, though, as Keldeo gets(almost) 2HKOd by Triple Axel: 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 153-180 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- approx. 89.8% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed with hazards damage, so if you remove its Scarf, in the next opportunity it gets in, it will be faster and get a KO for sure.
The next mon is a real common force in UU, albeit dropped to RU, but nothing too impressive at all, as it's not even a switch-in, but it takes any attack and gets Aurora Veil up I guess.
RestTalk Primarina, although not really common, is one of the most consistent Weavile checks the tier has to offer right now, and I talk about this set specifically, because of this: 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 177-210 (58.8 - 69.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 120-144 (32.9 - 39.5%) -- approx. 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Skarmory, although being a good answer to Weavile, still has some noticeable flaws. For example, being an easy Magnezone bait if it's running Rocky Helmet to punish the Triple Axel hits, it's not as easy to throw into random teams and it also gets 2HKO'd by Triple Axel, but it's obvious that if you haven't knocked it earlier you'll get 2HKO'd in return as well, so watch out for that before pressing any light blue buttons in your screen: 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I have seen some people mentioning Suicune in this thread, and it truly brings tears to my eyes. Seriously, Suicune is so overrated rn(and nothing you say will prove me otherwise you complete biased fool Lyss). It's not near to being as good as people think it is, because of how fucked up the metagame is right now, but that's out of the question right now, what matters is how good it is at checking Weavile, right? So:
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The chances of you getting a good roll and beating Suicune is much above 50%, and even if the user luckily survives two knocks, a knocked Suicune is a dead Suicune, as many people can say.
Adaam's favorite toy and SM mainstay Scizor is back to the new generation of UnderUsed. It's been used with a SpDef set as of this moment to check stuff like Lele, but it's quite nice at checking Weavile too, as it doesn't get 2HKO'd by Triple Axel in 99.6% of the time, but it's not very trustworthy because you get severely hurt by Knock Off: 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Scizor: 222-262 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, and at this moment it becomes a 50/50 between roosting as they switch out or BPing as they knock off again, leaning towards the Weavile user imo, since you'll be stuck in an infinite cycle of 5050s whenever you get in, and you can still be in the range of the next Knock Off after a Roost depending on the rolls, and just like Skarmory, you're an easy Magnezone bait.
While Klefki is nonexisting, I'd like to mention it, because it is still a good answer to Weavile, even if it's kinda... unviable, let's say. It does its job, and quite well, so I thought it was deserving of appearing on this list.
tl;dr: Pretty much all Hogg mentioned in his post. Its new access to a semi-reliable and cumulative 125 BP Ice STAB, and an incredibly high-speed tier, surpassing mons like Ribombee, Noivern, Latias, Gengar, Alakazam, the Swords of Justice trio, and many others, is to me what pushes it over the edge, as it can bypass through some of what would be its main checks, i.e Keldeo. only behind Zeraora, Crobat, and Talonflame(relevant ones).
And last, but not less important, it also has a really good prio in Ice Shard, allowing it to revenge kill mons like Salamence and weakened Hawlucha, as they're both Flying-types, and so not affected by Psychic Terrain. Notice that I haven't mentioned Boots sets at all, this because I personally think Band is its best set atm, but Boots are still good, but I really appreciate the wall breaking power that CB offers rather than longevity, and it allows you to pick more KOs immediately. Being able of switching moves is a blessing though. But please I beg you, don't waste Weavile's potential trying SD sets too, although they're a decent option, you heavily suffer from 3mss as you're tempted to run Triple Axel, Knock, and Ice Shard, but losing Low Kick deteriorates its main form of hitting Incineroar, Cobalion, and immediately threatening Bisharp/Crawdaunt, in exchange to beat some very specific stuff, which you would 2HKO anyway with a Choice Band. This is not a fair trade imo, but it's up to you and I'm not forcing anything, it also depends on your team and it can work depending on the occasion, etc.
Sorry if I'm not being very concise at all, but I haven't made any non-troll posts in this forum for a long time, so don't judge me if there's any egregious mistake(s). Thanks for spending your time reading, and may God(CBU) bless your hearts.
Weavile @ Choice Band / Heavy-Duty-Boots
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick / Swords Dance
Alright, so if any of you have laddered, for at least the past week, you might have seen a maniac running either Block Mew stall or this peculiar Weavile team
composed by my friend Highways which consists of SR SDef Jirachi, AV Bulu, Scarf Keldeo, DD Protect Kommo-o, Defog Heattom, and Band Weavile, and that was me. I have played an average amount of ~354 matches with it, and I have noticed some stuff in my run about the latter mon.First of all, I'm going to expose some of the ''counterplay'' we have for it, as I scroll through the uu list on the teambuilder and analyze them one-by-one:
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 120-144 (32.9 - 39.5%) -- approx. 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The chances of you getting a good roll and beating Suicune is much above 50%, and even if the user luckily survives two knocks, a knocked Suicune is a dead Suicune, as many people can say.
tl;dr: Pretty much all Hogg mentioned in his post. Its new access to a semi-reliable and cumulative 125 BP Ice STAB, and an incredibly high-speed tier, surpassing mons like Ribombee, Noivern, Latias, Gengar, Alakazam, the Swords of Justice trio, and many others, is to me what pushes it over the edge, as it can bypass through some of what would be its main checks, i.e Keldeo. only behind Zeraora, Crobat, and Talonflame(relevant ones).
And last, but not less important, it also has a really good prio in Ice Shard, allowing it to revenge kill mons like Salamence and weakened Hawlucha, as they're both Flying-types, and so not affected by Psychic Terrain. Notice that I haven't mentioned Boots sets at all, this because I personally think Band is its best set atm, but Boots are still good, but I really appreciate the wall breaking power that CB offers rather than longevity, and it allows you to pick more KOs immediately. Being able of switching moves is a blessing though. But please I beg you, don't waste Weavile's potential trying SD sets too, although they're a decent option, you heavily suffer from 3mss as you're tempted to run Triple Axel, Knock, and Ice Shard, but losing Low Kick deteriorates its main form of hitting Incineroar, Cobalion, and immediately threatening Bisharp/Crawdaunt, in exchange to beat some very specific stuff, which you would 2HKO anyway with a Choice Band. This is not a fair trade imo, but it's up to you and I'm not forcing anything, it also depends on your team and it can work depending on the occasion, etc.
Sorry if I'm not being very concise at all, but I haven't made any non-troll posts in this forum for a long time, so don't judge me if there's any egregious mistake(s). Thanks for spending your time reading, and may God(CBU) bless your hearts.
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Just to add onto what hs said, here are some replays showing why softer checks like defensive Sylveon or non-Helmet Cobalion just don't cut the mustard against Weavile.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1224252843 - Here's a team that theoretically should be pretty solid against CB Weavile: Cobalion, defensive Sylveon and Gastrodon, plus an Intimidate user to soften things up if necessary. Clearly it's not enough, though, as Weavile quite literally claims all 6 kills in the game. After a knock, Cobalion is 2HKO'd by Axel, while pdef Sylveon takes ~80%. From there it literally becomes a question of getting it in safely and claiming a kill every single time.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1220995615-69bfhe6v31lnuzvhryvhxfnredbut6jpw - I've mostly been a fan of the CB set myself, but here's an example of how the SD set can really put in some work as well. At +2, Weavile comfortably OHKOs both Sylveon and Celesteela with Axel, putting it in a position to easily win the game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1224252843 - Here's a team that theoretically should be pretty solid against CB Weavile: Cobalion, defensive Sylveon and Gastrodon, plus an Intimidate user to soften things up if necessary. Clearly it's not enough, though, as Weavile quite literally claims all 6 kills in the game. After a knock, Cobalion is 2HKO'd by Axel, while pdef Sylveon takes ~80%. From there it literally becomes a question of getting it in safely and claiming a kill every single time.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1220995615-69bfhe6v31lnuzvhryvhxfnredbut6jpw - I've mostly been a fan of the CB set myself, but here's an example of how the SD set can really put in some work as well. At +2, Weavile comfortably OHKOs both Sylveon and Celesteela with Axel, putting it in a position to easily win the game.
It looks like most people have already reached a consensus about Blacephalon, Dracozolt, and Hawlucha, so I'm not going to bother reiterating the points that have already been made multiple times in this thread and will instead focus on explaining why I think Weavile is broken and clearing up some misconceptions used to defend it. The post hs made while I was writing this already provides a lot of the calcs my arguments depend on, so I won't bother posting them here.
First, the fact that it has 5.255% usage on the ladder doesn't mean it isn't broken. Usage doesn't always correlate to viability.
Rocky Helmet on things that can survive a Triple Axel or two seems like a decent countermeasure, but then the Rocky Helmet just gets Knocked Off and you get 2HKOed by Triple Axel the next time Weavile comes in anyway.
Regarding revenge killing: it's true that there are plenty of ways to revenge kill Weavile, but by the time you're in a position to revenge kill it, it's presumably already killed something, so you're trading evenly at best unless you can get your faster threat in on a smart double switch or find a way to pivot or something, and this is assuming that the Weavile user can't simply switch into something that exploits your priority or Choice Scarfer and repeat the process later.
It's true that Weavile is frail and has trouble switching in, but this meta provides many options for pivot support (many good Pokemon get U-turn/Volt Switch/Flip Turn, such as Scizor, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Victini, Zeraora, Jirachi, and Magnezone, even if Teleport is a bit less common now), there are enough powerful Psychic-types running around for it to come in on an immunity, and, if all else fails, its defenses are enough for it to take a weak neutral or resisted attack once a game. Even the damage it takes from hazards and sandstorm can be offset to some degree by the presence of Tapu Bulu and its Grassy Terrain. It's not enough to keep Weavile constantly at full, but getting another switch for a breaker this threatening can completely change a game.
It's also possible to argue that Triple Axel's accuracy issues hold Weavile back, but dodging an inaccurate move isn't really enough counterplay to make something not broken. We've suspected plenty of things that rely on Focus Blast or Stone Edge throughout the years, despite how much we all gripe about them always missing.
Below is a replay of a game I played vs. Ramolost for the Crown Tundra tour. I believe that it demonstrates some of the points I've made. I think I could've played a few turns better, but hopefully that doesn't take away from the rest of my arguments.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1223649026-bi5s2qad285t76lwacodn5kxk0eq1ftpw
From preview, Choice Band Weavile at worst 2HKOes everything on his team (and everything on mine, barring extremely low rolls on Keldeo). I have Flip Turn Keldeo, U-turn Scizor (which I didn't use early in the game because I was afraid of Eject Button Amoonguss after one of my SM games scarred me for life), and Keldeo, Tapu Bulu, Scizor, and Salamence can all generate opportunities to either pivot Weavile in or bring it directly onto the field through a double switch by pressuring Ramolost to bring in Pokemon it can exploit like Amoonguss and Hippowdon, which I demonstrate on turn 7 by forcing his Amoonguss in to deal with Tapu Bulu and opening up the chance to double to Weavile. This turn also shows how Grassy Terrain can make Weavile more threatening by offsetting sand damage and allowing me an extra opportunity to switch into Stealth Rock if I need it. Unfortunately, my Weavile couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, so its impact was limited, but I hope you can see how much it could've done if not for that statistically improbable sequence of events.
Anyway, I'll bring my rambling to a close and talk about a couple of other things that interest me about the meta right now: a set I used in the replay above and the impact of Psychic Terrain.
Salamence @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Fire Blast
- Roost
This is basically pre-Crown Tundra Noivern with offensive presence and less speed, so I won't say too much about it, but I'd like to emphasize its ability to threaten much of the tier and at least soft check threats like Scizor, Victini, and Tapu Bulu through Intimidate and decent bulk even without investment. Your offensive presence is somewhat hindered by the need to hit two Hurricanes vs. a lot of things, so make sure to manage odds effectively and call your opponent lucky and bad when you inevitably miss. Defog can replace a move if you want, but you get walled by more things that way. Life Orb is also an option that improves your damage rolls vs. a few things, but probably isn't worth the decreased longevity unless you really need to OHKO stuff like Latias and 2HKO Celesteela.
Finally, Psychic Terrain has an interesting effect on the metagame by changing the way we have to approach revenge killing. By cancelling priority, it makes Pokemon like Salamence, Gyarados, Volcarona, (and, yes, Weavile) that much harder to revenge kill without a dedicated Choice Scarf user that can cover a bunch of diverse threats or a defensive core that can weather their assault. While the terrain itself only prevents priority used against grounded Pokemon and thus priority can still be used to revenge kill Pokemon like Gyarados and Salamence, the fact that Psychic Terrain's presence makes priority less reliable in general means there's a higher opportunity cost to including it. I'm not sure whether or not Psychic Terrain creates an unhealthy paradigm by limiting the ways in which we can keep dangerous Pokemon under control, but I'm interested to see what people think about its influence on the tier.
First, the fact that it has 5.255% usage on the ladder doesn't mean it isn't broken. Usage doesn't always correlate to viability.
Bulky waters aren't really great Weavile checks (and aren't too good in a meta with Pokemon like Hydreigon, Zeraora, Tapu Bulu, Kommo-o, Dracozolt, Rotom-W, and Latias all reaching the top 20 in usage, to say nothing of threats like Tapu Lele and Blacephalon). Max Defense Suicune is probably the best of them at playing that role since it isn't 3HKOed by Choice Band Knock Off after losing its Leftovers and can stall Weavile out with Rest and Pressure, but it still loses to Swords Dance barring a timely Scald burn or Roar since Weavile can just boost as Suicune comes in, Swords Dance a second time, and do a minimum of 72.7% with Knock Off while surviving 2 Scalds without trouble. Suicune only wins this matchup with a burn and low rolls. We don't have a lot of good bulky waters to begin with, and all the others are either 2HKOed by Knock Off after Stealth Rock (Rotom-W, Tentacruel), lose to Triple Axel (Mantine, Seismitoad, Gastrodon, etc.), take one Knock Off and then are 2HKOed by Triple Axel (Primarina, Azumarill), or are crippled by Knock Off because they rely on Heavy Duty Boots to have any sort of staying power. To discuss Primarina specifically, it needs significant Defense investment to avoid getting 2HKOed by Triple Axel and still gets 3HKOed after Stealth Rock even when fully invested in physical bulk. Azumarill is in a similar boat. These scenarios all assume Choice Band, but Swords Dance is perfectly capable of pushing past everything listed with a turn to setup and a little chip in the case of Primarina/Azumarill, which isn't exactly hard to force onto Pokemon with no reliable recovery.
Rocky Helmet on things that can survive a Triple Axel or two seems like a decent countermeasure, but then the Rocky Helmet just gets Knocked Off and you get 2HKOed by Triple Axel the next time Weavile comes in anyway.
Regarding revenge killing: it's true that there are plenty of ways to revenge kill Weavile, but by the time you're in a position to revenge kill it, it's presumably already killed something, so you're trading evenly at best unless you can get your faster threat in on a smart double switch or find a way to pivot or something, and this is assuming that the Weavile user can't simply switch into something that exploits your priority or Choice Scarfer and repeat the process later.
Knock Off is still pretty spammable, especially since plenty of Pokemon that can switch into Triple Axel rely on Heavy-Duty Boots to avoid taking Stealth Rock damage and are crippled without their items since they've traded any form of recovery for the ability to switch in without losing a quarter of their health to Stealth Rock (Incineroar, Volcarona, etc.), and Weavile doesn't even need Poison Jab because it can already get past every common Fairy-type with just its STABS.
It's true that Weavile is frail and has trouble switching in, but this meta provides many options for pivot support (many good Pokemon get U-turn/Volt Switch/Flip Turn, such as Scizor, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Victini, Zeraora, Jirachi, and Magnezone, even if Teleport is a bit less common now), there are enough powerful Psychic-types running around for it to come in on an immunity, and, if all else fails, its defenses are enough for it to take a weak neutral or resisted attack once a game. Even the damage it takes from hazards and sandstorm can be offset to some degree by the presence of Tapu Bulu and its Grassy Terrain. It's not enough to keep Weavile constantly at full, but getting another switch for a breaker this threatening can completely change a game.
It's also possible to argue that Triple Axel's accuracy issues hold Weavile back, but dodging an inaccurate move isn't really enough counterplay to make something not broken. We've suspected plenty of things that rely on Focus Blast or Stone Edge throughout the years, despite how much we all gripe about them always missing.
Below is a replay of a game I played vs. Ramolost for the Crown Tundra tour. I believe that it demonstrates some of the points I've made. I think I could've played a few turns better, but hopefully that doesn't take away from the rest of my arguments.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1223649026-bi5s2qad285t76lwacodn5kxk0eq1ftpw
From preview, Choice Band Weavile at worst 2HKOes everything on his team (and everything on mine, barring extremely low rolls on Keldeo). I have Flip Turn Keldeo, U-turn Scizor (which I didn't use early in the game because I was afraid of Eject Button Amoonguss after one of my SM games scarred me for life), and Keldeo, Tapu Bulu, Scizor, and Salamence can all generate opportunities to either pivot Weavile in or bring it directly onto the field through a double switch by pressuring Ramolost to bring in Pokemon it can exploit like Amoonguss and Hippowdon, which I demonstrate on turn 7 by forcing his Amoonguss in to deal with Tapu Bulu and opening up the chance to double to Weavile. This turn also shows how Grassy Terrain can make Weavile more threatening by offsetting sand damage and allowing me an extra opportunity to switch into Stealth Rock if I need it. Unfortunately, my Weavile couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, so its impact was limited, but I hope you can see how much it could've done if not for that statistically improbable sequence of events.
Anyway, I'll bring my rambling to a close and talk about a couple of other things that interest me about the meta right now: a set I used in the replay above and the impact of Psychic Terrain.
Salamence @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Fire Blast
- Roost
This is basically pre-Crown Tundra Noivern with offensive presence and less speed, so I won't say too much about it, but I'd like to emphasize its ability to threaten much of the tier and at least soft check threats like Scizor, Victini, and Tapu Bulu through Intimidate and decent bulk even without investment. Your offensive presence is somewhat hindered by the need to hit two Hurricanes vs. a lot of things, so make sure to manage odds effectively and call your opponent lucky and bad when you inevitably miss. Defog can replace a move if you want, but you get walled by more things that way. Life Orb is also an option that improves your damage rolls vs. a few things, but probably isn't worth the decreased longevity unless you really need to OHKO stuff like Latias and 2HKO Celesteela.
Finally, Psychic Terrain has an interesting effect on the metagame by changing the way we have to approach revenge killing. By cancelling priority, it makes Pokemon like Salamence, Gyarados, Volcarona, (and, yes, Weavile) that much harder to revenge kill without a dedicated Choice Scarf user that can cover a bunch of diverse threats or a defensive core that can weather their assault. While the terrain itself only prevents priority used against grounded Pokemon and thus priority can still be used to revenge kill Pokemon like Gyarados and Salamence, the fact that Psychic Terrain's presence makes priority less reliable in general means there's a higher opportunity cost to including it. I'm not sure whether or not Psychic Terrain creates an unhealthy paradigm by limiting the ways in which we can keep dangerous Pokemon under control, but I'm interested to see what people think about its influence on the tier.
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Glitchwood High
formerly Err0r Mobutt
Personally, between the four Pokemon the Council is voting for, the Pokemon I am most afraid of is Celesteela. By some dumb luck all of these mons are notable for being offensive threats that steela dare not switch into; Blace's fire blast and dracozolt's bolt beak wrecks the poor bird, while steela hates switching into a knockoff or banded triple axel, and hawlucha goes to town on it after sdance. This means that no matter what way these bans go, the most-used mon in the tier is going to be used a lot more.
The main reason why I want Lucha and Zolt banned is because of how overcentralizing they are-nearly every team in even mid-high ladder is sand balance or some sort of terrain and it's extremely boring. But now I'm bracing myself for a metagame where the top offensive threats aren't able to hit this thing. We also lost Nidoking, which means one less good mon with thunderbolt.
In their places will come Gengar, Chandelure, Azelf and Volcarona, which all unfortunately struggle against Incineroar. So once the bans have been made, depending on how many mons the council votes out expect to see a lot of Incineroar/Celesteela duos. And maybe a third mon in the middle for wish support.
The main reason why I want Lucha and Zolt banned is because of how overcentralizing they are-nearly every team in even mid-high ladder is sand balance or some sort of terrain and it's extremely boring. But now I'm bracing myself for a metagame where the top offensive threats aren't able to hit this thing. We also lost Nidoking, which means one less good mon with thunderbolt.
In their places will come Gengar, Chandelure, Azelf and Volcarona, which all unfortunately struggle against Incineroar. So once the bans have been made, depending on how many mons the council votes out expect to see a lot of Incineroar/Celesteela duos. And maybe a third mon in the middle for wish support.
Alright y'all, the UU council has voted and Blacephalon, Dracozolt, Hawlucha and Weavile have been banned from UU! See my previous post for reasonings.
(Will edit in Tony's vote once we receive it, but as we had a guaranteed majority on all four 'mons regardless of his vote, we decided to move forward with the results.)
The Immortal Marty please ban Blacephalon, Dracozolt, Hawlucha and Weavile from UU. Thanks, all!
Glitchwood High
formerly Err0r Mobutt
And all four of them were banned, look at that! Incineroar/Celesteela is gonna be a doozy, maybe with some Wish Latias to support them.
Hawlucha going means that terrain is a lot less obnoxious now, though psychic terrain still adores volcarona.
Dracozolt going is a big blow to sand balance, although sand stall doesn't really mind it much. It also means specially defensive hippowdon is gonna fall out of favor, so start calcing for that instead. Thundurus-I and Thundurus-T have come closer together now that volt absorb isn't nearly as valuable. And now Celesteela is even better. Plus, now ladder will stop running sand balance! God yes....
Blacephalon going is good news for gengar, AMAZING news for chandelure, and pretty good news for Celesteela! Now the only annoying sub sets are suicune and aegislash.
Weavile going is good news for defensive teams in general because it was an absolute nightmare to deal with. Defensive Pokemon also appreciate one less strong mon with knockoff and hippowdon can be a legitimate physical wall without constantly fearing it.
Overall, I think these changes are going to be quite healthy for the UU metagame, and I can't wait to see what team style becomes impenetrable next (kek). See y'all next time!
Lol
I adore Chandelure, but there were two roadblock (and by that I mean competition) in its way in Blace and Gengar. Well Blace is now gone and I agree with G-Luke that I want Gengar banned (though I don't care if it does while its in RU but that would be cool).
I adore Chandelure, but there were two roadblock (and by that I mean competition) in its way in Blace and Gengar. Well Blace is now gone and I agree with G-Luke that I want Gengar banned (though I don't care if it does while its in RU but that would be cool).
Ok so I have a question staff. When will be the next voting/suspect test? This meta is pretty promising.
We already got 4 bans, we need the meta to settle/stabilize in order for a test to happen, if a pokemon is still deemed broken then it will be tested
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