Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
I have to disagree on this gen gonna be Landorus' best gen. For one thing, the speed just keeps increasing with every passing gen and it was dominant last gen partly because it actually had a flying type stab that doesn't go two turns that comes from its higher attack stat. It's still gonna be a good choice since Gliscor isn't around that does its job with reliable recovery but I highly doubt it would be as good as it was last gen especially with galarian Zapdos slowly creeping its way up. OU also has no shortage of powerful physical attackers like Garchomp, Rillaboom, Dragapult and the soon to be banned Urshifu, all of which have a way of one upping Landorus. Scarf is still decent but it's kinda vulnerable to be taken advantage. If anything, I feel like Landorus is gonna stick to its greatest strength which is its plethora of utility options
 
There’s little-to-no reason to use SDef LandoT with LandoI now being banned and CB LandoT was never a set, but yes to the others and the occasional SD breaker set and RP sweeper set.
I have tried spe def to takes hits from mag lacking ice beam, hydreigon and specially choice spectrier, also this set should run toxic.
The banded set can catch out of guard Clef, slowbro ferro, but lando speed is not amazing to run this set

So yes, u are right this sets are just gimmicks and I just trie to use knew things to improve the meta if I can and inspire people to do.
For example I have used banded pex on high ladder to lure the fairys, beat one on on heatran and potencionally punishing zapdos and letting its teamates shine.
Finally I would to u trie sub toxic entei with sacred fire and stomping tantrum which is good for teams to spread status with unconvential picks.
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Hey everyone, I just want to talk about two Pokemon, one of which I feel is a little underrated and one that I feel is a little overrated, although I don't think that either of them are egregiously so.


I feel like Corviknight is a little underrated at the moment. Obviously over the course of SS, Corviknight has been a defensive staple, and while Corviknight isn't as omnipresent or dominant as it was some metas ago, I feel like the general perception of it may have swung a little too far the other way. The team I used to get reqs for the Urshifu suspect was a semi-stall team that included a physically defensive Corviknight as its Defogger. Here was the set (and I've said this before, but for the record again, I didn't build the team - ABR did):

Corviknight (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Defog
- Roost​

Running minimum speed IVs with a negative nature is really smart because it allows Corviknight to under-speed things and get slower U-turns out against Hippowdon (so that it can't Toxic whatever you switch to), Swampert (also so that it can't Toxic a switch but also so that you could U-turn after it Flip Turns), Celesteela (you can absorb Leech Seed and then immediately U-turn out), Blissey and Chansey (again, you can absorb Toxic, if it has it), and Clefable (Corviknight usually doesn't rely too heavily on its item, so being able to absorb a Knock Off and then U-turn is very nice), as well as opposing Corviknights (guarantees getting the slower U-turn, unless they're minimum speed too). However, being slower than some Melmetal variants can be troublesome (especially since you won't be able to Roost on Thunder Punch, if it has that coverage), so you should keep that in mind. The rest of the set is pretty self-explanatory, and I think that Brave Bird is generally the best attacking move for Corviknight, as it does respectable damage to most of the tier and is necessary for some of the more important Pokemon that Corviknight checks, such as Rillaboom and Hawlucha. Pressure is a fantastic ability to not only PP stall strong attacks that already have limited PP, like Double Iron Bash, but also because in conjunction with Defog, it allows Corviknight to outlast many Stealth Rock users (Stealth Rocks has more PP than Defog, so without Pressure, a Defog user won't be able to win the hazard battle over the course of a long game when PP becomes a determining factor), which can be vital for stall teams. Pressuring opposing Defogs can also be helpful to make progress in some stall vs. stall matchups. You could use a Rocky Helmet on Corviknight over Leftovers, and that can be convenient, especially since Corviknight often just ends up getting its item Knocked Off anyway, but I do like how Leftovers can make it easier for Corviknight to switch-in and Defog away Rocks without having as much pressure on it to heal through Roost. So what Corviknight does is nothing new, and it doesn't blanket-check as much of the meta as it used to, but I feel like part of its drop in usage has been the result of "new toy syndrome" surrounding some of the other Defog options added in Crown Tundra. I'll briefly compare Corviknight to the three other defensive, Defogging birds that it sees competition from:

Mandibuzz obviously isn't a "new toy" and has been one of the other main Defogging options alongside Corviknight throughout all of SS, but it is currently used substantially more. This is undoubtedly due in large part to Spectrier and how it necessitates a Dark resist, but beyond checking Spectrier, Mandibuzz can struggle with a lot of other Pokemon that you would like for your defensive Flying type to check. Mandibuzz being weak to Stealth Rocks makes it a shakier check to something like Rillaboom, since getting its Boots Knocked Off on the switch often makes it much more difficult to subsequently bring Mandibuzz in. Mandibuzz not being immune to Toxic also means that it can struggle to keep Rocks off against common Stealth Rocks setters like Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Swampert, and even Garchomp and Excadrill, all of which frequently carry Toxic. I feel like sometimes Mandibuzz is asked to do too much (check Spectrier, Defog rocks, and also help against things like Rillaboom), so unless you give it more team support, it can be stretched too thin and crumble to Knock Off and/or Toxic. Corviknight taking neutral damage from Rocks and being immune to Toxic usually makes it feel more dependable for me regarding its ability to remove hazards and check what you need it to.

I like Moltres and it was featured on one of the better teams I built, but it's already started to decline in the current meta. The main draw for using Moltres is Flame Body, and that is still a fantastic (and annoying to play against) ability, but Moltres's massive 4X weakness to Rocks makes it risky for Moltres as well to switch into the physical attackers (like Rillaboom or Kartana) that it wants to try to burn, since getting Knocked Off is horrible for Moltres. That Rock type weakness also means that Moltres can't check or keep Rocks off against things like Landorus or Garchomp which could have Stone Edge. Moltres is however able to usually keep Rocks off of Heatran better than most other Defoggers (especially if Moltres has Scorching Sands), but it still is susceptible to potentially eating a Toxic from Heatran. As with all of the Defogging birds I'll talk about, the necessity to run Heavy Duty Boots excludes getting passive recovery from Leftovers, so being (badly) poisoned hurts them even more.

Now I think that Zapdos is probably the best of these three Defogging birds that I'm comparing Corviknight to (although I don't think that any of them are bad), and while it does have some advantages over Corviknight like offering more offensive presence, potentially crippling attackers with Static, and being able to hit solid speed tiers without too much investment, there are still some convenient advantages for Corviknight. First, even though Zapdos isn't as weak to Rocks as Moltres is, it's still weak to them and is in the same awkward position of wanting to switch into contact moves but not wanting to get its Boots Knocked Off. Secondly, Zapdos can get hit with Toxic by common Stealth Rock setters like Lando, Hippowdon, Swampert, Excadrill, and Garchomp, so it often gets worn down and is not able to keep Rocks off against them, especially if they have Special Defense investment and/or Stone Edge or Rock Slide coverage. Zapdos also can't hit any of these Ground types with its electric STABs, which leads me to my last point: Zapdos isn't able to regain momentum as reliably as Corviknight can, since even if the Zapdos has Volt Switch (and it can be difficult to decide between Volt Switch and Discharge anyway), it can get stuffed by Ground types, and Zapdos is sometimes too fast to get the slower switch out and absorb some moves that it would like to.

To sum up my thoughts on Corviknight, I think that even though it may not be as immediately appealing or "flashy" as things like Mandibuzz (being a Spectrier check is really appealing), Moltres (Flame Body), and Zapdos (Static and Hurricane hitting hard), Corviknight feels to me like a more consistent and reliable option in many games. In this regard, Corviknight kind of feels to me like the Jeep of Defoggers, in that it's usually not flashy and doesn't have too many bells and whistles, but more often than not, it gets the job done. That analogy may not resonate with too many people but I drive a Jeep and my family has always had really good results with Jeeps over the years, so it makes sense to me. Not being weak to Rocks goes a long way in making Corviknight a more dependable Defogger and defensive switch-in, especially with how common Knock Off is. Many Stealth Rocks setters use Rocks + Earthquake + Toxic, and Corviknight being immune to both Earthquake and Toxic lets it completely shut down Pokemon like Hippowdon, Swampert, and defensive Landorus. This probably has something to do with the teams that I frequently use, but I usually find Corviknight more difficult to play against and less exploitable than Mandibuzz, Moltres, or Zapdos. As an added bonus, Corviknight's Steel/Flying typing makes it a good check to Tapu Lele as well, even without any Special Defense investment (Corviknight using the spread I posted is 2HKOed by Specs Focus Blast, but that requires your opponent to hit two Focus Blasts in a row, and Lele really just wants to click Moonblast and Psychic/Psyshock anyway). The only really annoying thing about Corviknight is that it can get trapped and OHKOed by Magnezone, but with Magnezone's usage continuing to drop, this isn't as much of a concern. Even if the opposing team does have a Magnezone, it's not like Corviknight is useless - you just have to play around it more carefully. I have always disliked trapping abilities though (and yeah, I get that Magnet Pull isn't on the same level as Arena Trap, but it still feels really bad to play against), so I'll be happy so long as Zone stays mostly down in the lower tiers. The last thing I'll mention about Corviknight is that it can run a Sub + Bulk Up set to function as a potent setup sweeper, as Ox the Fox talked about here.

I don't have as much to say about it as I did Corviknight, but now for the Pokemon I think is slightly overrated:
I actually don't know if the general view on Swampert has dampened since Crown Tundra's release, and maybe it would be more fair for me to just say that I personally don't like building with/using Swampert that much, but I've never really bought into the Swampert hype. I mean it's a cool Pokemon, and I'm glad that it does have some defensive viability in OU, but I usually find it underwhelming and not very threatening to play against. SpDef versions being able to actually check things like Nidoking is nice, and getting momentum through Flip Turn is great, but I think that the lack of viable recovery really hurts Swampert. If you're using a more balanced team and you want to use Swampert as your Stealth Rocks setter, it usually gets chipped down too much to last throughout longer games, which I believe often makes it less useful and impactful than something like Hippowdon. The lack of recovery also means that Swampert can only come in on things that it's meant to check (like Nidoking) a limited number of times - it can really only come in on a Nidoking's Earth Power once before it's in range to get 2HKOed. Using Protect on Swampert could help to alleviate some of its Recovery problems, but then you're going to be passing up a move that Swampert is going to miss - likely either Toxic or Earthquake. If you want to use Swampert on more offensive teams, I feel like more threatening Stealth Rocks setters like Landorus or Garchomp might be better to pack more of a punch. To be fair, I think that Swampert probably fits best on bulky offense, which is a playstyle that I don't build or use very much. Overall, I guess it just feels to me like Swampert doesn't have the longevity that some other Stealth Rocks users do, can't wall things the way that other bulky waters like Toxapex and Slowbro/Slowking can, isn't threatening like other offensive Stealth Rocks setters such as Lando or Garchomp, and doesn't really offer much utility beyond Flip Turn (which gets punished by Rocky Helmet users, Moltres's Flame Body, and Zapdos's Static, all of which are currently common in the meta). I kind of feel like whatever Swampert wants to do, whether it's set Rocks, check some threats, or get momentum, there are other options that do those things better. The role compression that Swampert provides by doing all of those things at once is why I feel like it's still a notable Pokemon in the tier, but similarly to what I said earlier about Mandibuzz, I think it's easy to ask too much of Swampert and spread its usefulness too thin, since I don't believe that it's great at any one thing that it does. Swampert isn't bad and it does have a niche in OU, so I don't want to come across as just some strange Swampert hater, but I just was thinking back to how when the viability rankings first dropped after Crown Tundra was released, many people were clamoring for a Swampert rise and claimed that it was underrated; I've always felt kind of the opposite. Maybe my perspective is an overcorrection from people initially overrating Swampert though, and I may be selling it short now, while the reality could very well be somewhere in between.
 
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Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
↑ I agree with pretty much the above post. I will say this that Moltres and Zapdos also have the option to run u turn, which is pretty much what I use since I don't want my birds to be poisoned by Heatran anyway. Moltres and Zapdos are also want all the moves but can't fit. Aside from the defog and roost, Zapdos wants hurricane, volt switch/u turn and discharge while Moltres wants flamethrower, u turn and scorching sands. I actually think that the birds shouldn't be used as a main switch in to stuff like Kartana or Rillaboom but rather, a backup to your main switch in to those. On nearly all of my teams, the birds are always the backup to a hard physical wall like Buzzwole, Tangrowth or Ferrothorn, but usually Buzzwole since it's the only one that can beat both Urshifu and sd Garchomp while Moltres and Zapdos, especially Moltres, can serve as an emergency check to Urshifu and pray for their abilities to activate. This also allows me to invest like 220 or more evs, depending on the random number I click, on defense for Moltres and allow it to protect the three from Cinderace. Corvinight is one that I find useful on the very few times I used it. Having a defogger that doesn't instantly lose to Garchomp is so useful
 
There’s little-to-no reason to use SDef LandoT with LandoI now being banned
I feel that while full SpDef Investment isn't necessary, investing a good amount is actually pretty useful on the right (usually balance/fatter) teams - especially with Leftovers and Knock Off + Toxic to harass the heck out of any switch in (even Corviknight doesn't like losing its item) - Lando-T can still serve as a good emergency check to Spectrier (which can run through regular Defensive Lando-T with a boost), as well as taking Specs Koko, Specs Dragapult, Mixed Garchomp/Dracozolt on better. Being able to take stuff like a Specs Lele Psychic and Specs Latios Draco Meteor in a pinch is also useful on the right team, especially with Protect.

Of course, PhysDef Lando-T is more useful overall - especially once Urshifu gets banned and stuff like Bisharp rises in prominence, but I think heavy SpDef investment on Lando-T has a place.

Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 152 SpD / 88 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock / Protect
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Knock Off / U-Turn

88 Speed hits 240 speed, outspeed Adamant Bisharp and everything below (if Black Glasses Bisharp SD's on the switch in, it's a 62% shot to be OHKO'd by +3 Sucker Punch, so some SpDef EVs can be shoved into Defense to dodge that, but if LO Bisharp becomes the standard then regular PhysDef Lando-T is superior). More speed to beat stuff like max Speed Heatran is totally valid too, but cutting from the SpDef investment kinda ruins the point of this as opposed to standard PhysDef Lando-T IMO.

Impish nature + 16 Defense (saves a few EVs compared to a +SpDef nature) is still enough to dodge the OHKO from CB Melmetal's Double Iron Bash after Intimidate, and also still check Cinderace/Excadrill/etc. quite well. 152 SpDef lets this set dodge the OHKO from a +1 Specs Spectrier's Shadow Ball, Specs Dragapult's Draco Meteor, Specs Lele's Psychic, Specs Latios in general (Surf only has a 56% shot to OHKO), and the 2HKO from Specs Koko's Dazzling Gleam, Offensive Zapdos' Hurricane, and Mixed LO Garchomp/Dracozolt's Draco Meteor, and a bunch of other stuff.

Rocks over Protect for role compression, but Protect is REALLY nice for scouting out moves/potential choice-locked mons and grabbing that juicy Leftovers recovery which comes in handy quite a bit on the fatter builds that this kind of set would be best on IMO.
 

Ka1xo

Banned deucer.
Shelmet @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Protect
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 111-135 (36.5 - 44.4%) -- approx. 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
Shelmet @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Protect
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 111-135 (36.5 - 44.4%) -- approx. 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
1609859297308.png



In the future, please add further context to your post. It is hard to make anything out of your post as of right now. Cool, Shelmet isn't 2HKOed by Urshifu-R and Urshifu-S, but why's it actually worth using?
 
Shelmet @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Protect
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 111-135 (36.5 - 44.4%) -- approx. 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It's a fun gimmick to use, but that doesn't mean Shelmet is GOOD. You rely on your item way too much, and as a bug, Shelmet is weak to entry hazards (this is why Blissey is better than Chansey right now). It's worth noting that Shell Armor means it's immune to Wicked Blow, however. But that doesn't matter, because you have Protect on your set, which is completely useless as Unseen Fist ignores it! Shelmet kind of just barely checks Urshifu and nothing else, and what do you know, it's not even properly optimized for that. All the things used to check Urshifu have other uses, at least, so you actually want to put them on your team. Shelmet can't even claim that. Kind of reminds me of how Seismitoad was only OU because it had Water Absorb to stuff Dracovish and it sort of fell off after that and now we have Swampert so it's out of a job completely
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
Shelmet @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Protect
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 111-135 (36.5 - 44.4%) -- approx. 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I like your idea, but lets make it a bit more fruitful.

Escavalier @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish / Relaxed Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Megahorn
- Knock Off

What this does is it allows the concept of a bug walling this bear to be more valid, if slightly so. I just adapted the UU tank set found on the smogon calculator, and accounted for the fact that with a 105 SpD, you're going to naturally resist a psychic or a future sight (are those even still around?), while also acknowledging that any fire attack spells doom irrelevant of your SpD, so why even bother.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Escavalier: 204-241 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
after knock off,
252 Atk Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Escavalier: 136-162 (39.5 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile, if you get the switch safely for some fucking reason:
4 Atk Escavalier Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 224-264 (65.6 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
you are guaranteed the victory against the bear if they slip and switch into Urshifu, because while knock off does around 5%, you wont die to any further hits. Shell Armor makes Wicked Blow not worth using, and the other moves, unless you're a madman with fire punch, wont deal any real damage.

4 Atk Escavalier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 408-480 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
physical walls, unless they resist steel, fighting, and bug, will not survive. so, Aegisteel.
Plus, this warrior cannot be poisoned!

Sneaky Pebbles do 12.5% due to the knight's steel type, and while the CC -1 to Def might bite your ass, you are leaving Urshifu in respectable chip range, be it your own rocks and hazards, or priority from others on your team.

Escavalier is not something you can plop down, i agree. However, like other UU and NU that can be used, building with it in mind, with partners that help and it can help in return, I believe it can be used to a bit of success.
 
I like your idea, but lets make it a bit more fruitful.

Escavalier @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish / Relaxed Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Megahorn
- Knock Off

What this does is it allows the concept of a bug walling this bear to be more valid, if slightly so. I just adapted the UU tank set found on the smogon calculator, and accounted for the fact that with a 105 SpD, you're going to naturally resist a psychic or a future sight (are those even still around?), while also acknowledging that any fire attack spells doom irrelevant of your SpD, so why even bother.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Escavalier: 204-241 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
after knock off,
252 Atk Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Escavalier: 136-162 (39.5 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile, if you get the switch safely for some fucking reason:
4 Atk Escavalier Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 224-264 (65.6 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
you are guaranteed the victory against the bear if they slip and switch into Urshifu, because while knock off does around 5%, you wont die to any further hits. Shell Armor makes Wicked Blow not worth using, and the other moves, unless you're a madman with fire punch, wont deal any real damage.

4 Atk Escavalier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 408-480 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
physical walls, unless they resist steel, fighting, and bug, will not survive. so, Aegisteel.
Plus, this warrior cannot be poisoned!

Sneaky Pebbles do 12.5% due to the knight's steel type, and while the CC -1 to Def might bite your ass, you are leaving Urshifu in respectable chip range, be it your own rocks and hazards, or priority from others on your team.

Escavalier is not something you can plop down, i agree. However, like other UU and NU that can be used, building with it in mind, with partners that help and it can help in return, I believe it can be used to a bit of success.
Hypothetically if this set did rise up to prominence, Urishifu could just adopt U-Turn more readily and be paired with Magnezone for an easy VoltTurn core which would trap and nullify Escavallier regardless. That’s before even considering the set’s the lack of sustainablity from hazards chip and instant recovery, and repeated assaults from Urishifu.

The same concept applies to Corviknight/Skarmory (lacking Shed Shell), both of whom have fallen out of favor in OU, and are far more consistent physical walls.
 
guys i think it was a joke

the joke being that " Urishifu is so powerful and impossible to chip that wildly unconventional/gimmicky mons are needed to counter it without getting worn down".

it's not even necessarily that it does sky high amounts of damage, it's that most of the usual methods for checking physical attackers don't work on it.
Shelmet did have a cool stall team based around it from DLC 1: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/shelmet-shedinja-stall-peaked-1888-23.3671825/

However, Buzzwole fills the role better, as it has answers to heatran.
 
Before Urshifu potentially gets Thanos snapped out of the game, I would like to bring up a set that I’ve been enjoying so far.

3198ECA7-4BB1-4A6A-A3DD-9C31E798A7EE.png

Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 224 HP / 116 SpD / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Substitute​

The idea of this set was to trade the ability to break through teams more immediately and potentially sweep with Scale Shot, for more longevity, defensive utility, and more of an ease of setting up. The ev spread allows Chomp to Sub up and setup on the likes of Pex, Blissey, Bro, Moltres, Tran, Rock Blast Ttar, Glowking, etc. Substitute lets it avoid status from Lando, opposing Chomp, Scald burns, Tran, and Hippo thinking they can get free status off it. The ev spread lets it do a few things that LO SD Chomp couldn’t offer.

-Gives it a chance to live HJK from Cinderace.

-Allows it to live Specs Koko’s DGleam after rocks.

-Let’s it live Scarf Fini’s Moonblast after rock

-Lives LO Moonblast from Clefable.

-Lets it sub up on non-Ice Beam Bro, Glowking, Pex, Tran, and Blissey.

-And outspeed offensive Landorus.

•LO SD calcs•

0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 291-346 (81.5 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 336-396 (94.1 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 288-338 (80.6 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 360-426 (100.8 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 204-241 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 99-117 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

•Sub-SD calcs•

0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 224 HP / 116 SpD Garchomp: 257-304 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 224 HP / 116 SpD Garchomp: 296-350 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 224 HP / 116 SpD Garchomp: 254-300 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 224 HP / 116 SpD Garchomp: 318-374 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 204-241 (49.3 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 224 HP / 116 SpD Garchomp: 87-103 (21 - 24.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Some good teammates includes mons that can help weaken and lure its checks like Ace and Ice Beam Ttar. Future Sight support from Bro or Glowking to remove Buzzwole and cripple potential checks. Mons that can threaten Corv/Skarm like Tran, Ferro, Ace, etc. Fini to give Chomp an even easier time to setup on fatter teams. I’d say give it a shot.
 
Uh what? You mentioned 'sweep with scale shot' but the set doesn't have scale shot O.o
I had to reread this a couple times too, but I think that what they are trying to say is that Garchomp gives up [the ability to break through teams more immediately and sweep with scale shot] for [more longevity, defensive utility, and more of an ease of setting up]. Essentially this Garchomp set gives up the offensive power provided by offensive EVs and Scale Shot for the defensive utility of sub and spdef EVs.
 
Shelmet @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Protect
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 111-135 (36.5 - 44.4%) -- approx. 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I would always use Encore > Protect to deter all kinda of setup but great post otherwise.
It actually inspired me to get reqs with a Shelmet team to prove it's viable, which it obviously is.
If ppl are using Buzzwole, you might as well use Shelmet, Spikes / Encore make a lot more progress / annoy a lot more mons than Buzzwole's uninvested Drain Punch or Ice Punch, the rest of your team just has to cover a bit more weaknesses.

Replays below for reference :]


E: I didn't expect this kind of argument but I guess my post being only semi-serious wasn't that obvious. Goodbye & Thanks already said everything there is to say, so no point in going further into it. I stand by statement of Buzzwole not being much better than Shelemt though
 
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I would always use Encore > Protect to deter all kinda of setup but great post otherwise.
It actually inspired me to get reqs with a Shelmet team to prove it's viable, which it obviously is.
If ppl are using Buzzwole, you might as well use Shelmet, Spikes / Encore make a lot more progress / annoy a lot more mons than Buzzwole's uninvested Drain Punch or Ice Punch, the rest of your team just has to cover a bit more weaknesses.

Replays below for reference :]
Ehh. All those replays showed me is players apparently don't know what the move U-turn is.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 62-73 (20.3 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after a min roll U-turn, 41% chance to 2HKO after a max roll U-turn. And this isn't Adamant.
Anyway, game 1 you lose if you don't get the 30% poison on Torn-T turn 10, or if your opponent bothers to switch it out and use Regenerator on any of the 3 turns after that. If it had switched out, your team didn't have any answers to it left. You also get lucky with Chomp V Corv, but your opponent has already sacced half their team so it's probably too late for Urshifu to win lol.
Game 2 your opponent shows off the excellence of Surf Tapu Fini while letting it get worn down so it can't win lategame with Calm Mind. Even so, if Chomp doesn't let Corv in to Defog for free turn 23 (ie: Clicks Stone Edge on this turn or the next) he forces Rocks up and wins because you no longer have a Shifu answer. By the look of it he doesn't even have Stone Edge...
I love your opponent's Spectrier usage in Game 3. Rather than just accepting it's not doing anything until the Guts breaker has killed itself, he's going to repeatedly over and over give your breaker free switch-ins! And sac everything but it when it's clearly doing nothing! Simple U-turn spam from Urshifu and Cinderace wins the game with utmost ease. This game also shows off several problems with Shelmet. Rocks are up? Sac a mon. Future Sight up? Sac a mon. Buzzwole also shows why it is better than Shelmet by doing something Shelmet can't in this game: check something not called Urshifu. And just to round the hilarity of everything off:
252 Atk Life Orb Dracozolt Bolt Beak (85 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 191-226 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracozolt: 117-138 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Sucker Punch Cinderace beats Zolt there with better earlygame play... All he has to do is let the Lando-T which is about to go boom take the Toxic.

Show me some replays where Shelmet puts in work against decent opposition, in a non-Urshifu matchup, and we can talk.
 
Shelmet is completety worthless. Being immune to crits doesn't mean anything when you still take more damage from Wicked Blow AND Close Combat than Buzzwole.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole on a critical hit: 90-106 (21.5 - 25.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 105-124 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 78-93 (25.7 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Ehh. All those replays showed me is players apparently don't know what the move U-turn is.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 62-73 (20.3 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after a min roll U-turn, 41% chance to 2HKO after a max roll U-turn. And this isn't Adamant.
Anyway, game 1 you lose if you don't get the 30% poison on Torn-T turn 10, or if your opponent bothers to switch it out and use Regenerator on any of the 3 turns after that. If it had switched out, your team didn't have any answers to it left. You also get lucky with Chomp V Corv, but your opponent has already sacced half their team so it's probably too late for Urshifu to win lol.
Game 2 your opponent shows off the excellence of Surf Tapu Fini while letting it get worn down so it can't win lategame with Calm Mind. Even so, if Chomp doesn't let Corv in to Defog for free turn 23 (ie: Clicks Stone Edge on this turn or the next) he forces Rocks up and wins because you no longer have a Shifu answer. By the look of it he doesn't even have Stone Edge...
I love your opponent's Spectrier usage in Game 3. Rather than just accepting it's not doing anything until the Guts breaker has killed itself, he's going to repeatedly over and over give your breaker free switch-ins! And sac everything but it when it's clearly doing nothing! Simple U-turn spam from Urshifu and Cinderace wins the game with utmost ease. This game also shows off several problems with Shelmet. Rocks are up? Sac a mon. Future Sight up? Sac a mon. Buzzwole also shows why it is better than Shelmet by doing something Shelmet can't in this game: check something not called Urshifu. And just to round the hilarity of everything off:
252 Atk Life Orb Dracozolt Bolt Beak (85 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 191-226 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracozolt: 117-138 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Sucker Punch Cinderace beats Zolt there with better earlygame play... All he has to do is let the Lando-T which is about to go boom take the Toxic.

Show me some replays where Shelmet puts in work against decent opposition, in a non-Urshifu matchup, and we can talk.
I think you're being a little harsh; I don't feel like any of those opponents played too poorly. Those replays were all from Flexxen laddering for suspect voting reqs, and while getting reqs starts on the bottom of the ladder, all three of those replays were from around the 1600s, so pretty much mid-ladder. I mean sure, the opponents didn't play flawlessly, but they also weren't like completely new players using monotype teams either. I also don't think that the point of the post was to claim that Shelmet is a top threat in the meta or anything and it's not like we're going to see Shelmet all over the place in SPL (although we did see a Trubbish is Smogon Tour Playoffs, so who knows), but I think that the point that Flexxen wanted to make was that if it was good enough to help them get reqs, it's not a complete laughing stock of a Pokemon.

I also disagree with some of your analysis of the games. Regarding the first replay, many Urshifu do not carry U-turn because it comes at the cost of Sucker Punch, which is often too great for even Banded sets to pass up. Flexxen also wouldn't have just immediately lost if they didn't get the poison on Torn either - they could have sacked/switched to Hippo and then brought in Dracozolt. Sure the opponent could have switched out Torn for Regenerator recovery and brought it in later, but the same could be said about Galarian Slowking after Torn is forced out (and AV Galarian Slowking can be very annoying for Torn, due to its absurdly high special bulk while also threatening damage/poison through Sludge Bomb, especially since it's far from guaranteed that Torn hits every Hurricane).

With what you said about the opponent saving Fini to sweep later in the second game, I don't think I've ever seen a CM Fini get past an AV Galarian Slowking. I guess it could happen if the Slowking was significantly chipped, but that's not hard to avoid thanks to Regenerator.

In regards to the third game, you again assume that the Urshifu has U-turn, and it very well could have, but again, I think that Urshifu lacking Sucker Punch is missing one of its biggest tools. You also talk about how the Cinderace could have cleaned up late game if it had Sucker Punch, and yeah, it could have, but again, not all Cinderace run Sucker Punch (I personally think it's really good and hard to pass up, but having Sucker Punch usually means that Cinderace forgoes Zen Headbutt or Gunk Shot and is walled by Pex or Clef). Also, you could always say something like "a Pokemon could have cleaned up with better early-game play;" that's pretty much tantamount to saying "if someone was winning more early on, they would have won." Another problem with speculating like that is that people play the game and make decisions based on what their opponents do, so Flexxen made the plays that they did in response to their opponent, and if their opponent played differently, they would have responded differently as well.

Regarding the comparison of Shelmet to Buzzwole, Buzzwole is obviously a better Pokemon (it's an Ultra Beast and Shelmet isn't even a fully evolved Pokemon), but one big advantage that Shelmet has is access to Spikes. The problem with Buzzwole, and why I personally don't think it's very good, is that it doesn't offer much utility after it comes in on Urshifu. Spikes is one of the best moves in the game, and it doesn't have a wide distribution, so having a Spikes setter that also can wall Urshifu is what makes Shelmet at least somewhat notable. Shelmet and Buzzwole (and pretty much everything in the tier) can't switch into Wicked Blow/CC + Future Sight, but that's why you can't just sit back and let Slowbro/Slowking go for Future Sight then Teleport unimpeded. Now positioning yourself aggressively against Slowbro/Slowking to prevent Future Sight + Teleport does force you to risk eating a Scald (or rarer T-Wave) - I talked about this a lot in this post that I made after getting reqs and it's a big part of why I'll probably vote to ban Urshifu tomorrow night, but Shelmet actually is a better answer to Future Sight + Urshifu than Buzzwole is. Shelmet can live a Wicked Blow + Future Sight from full and Recover back (it gets 2HKOed by Wicked Blow after taking a Future Sight but I'm talking about switching in Shelmet when the Slowbro/Slowking tries to Teleport to Urshifu), while Buzzwole just gets OHKOed by Future Sight. In response to ForstamemasNeetaroOoniqua saying "That's not even considering if Shelmet can even touch Urshifu at all," it does beat Urshifu one-on-one with Toxic and Recover stalling, as Flexxen shows at the end of their first replay. Clicking Toxic against Urshifu is probably better than Buzzwole going for Drain Punch anyway, since Toxic hits more things that could switch-in. Even though Shelmet can't go for Toxic immediately after switching into a Wicked Blow from Urshifu (since Wicked Blow 3HKOs it), Urshifu can't afford to keep going for Wicked Blow as it Recovers, since Wicked Blow only has 8 PP.

Now to wrap this up, Shelmet clearly is not a great Pokemon and I don't think it's worthwhile to really keep discussing it. The point is that Shelmet is a cool and overlooked option for a Spikes setter that can check Urshifu, and Flexxen showed that it can be used to find some success in the tier (as evidenced by them getting reqs with it), but there are clearly other, better Pokemon that can check Urshifu, so I don't feel like Shelmet or Flexxen's replays need to be analyzed beyond that.
 
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Gomi

yep
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
why are we reading so much into a shelmet's viability lol jesus
It's just a memey Shifu switch with Spikes like its not that deep or serious or anything
good post tho goodbye & thanks
Ehh. All those replays showed me is players apparently don't know what the move U-turn is.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 62-73 (20.3 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
A good number of Shifus on ladder have started dropping U-turn for a while bc of Sucker punch having great overall utility+potential to save a game you would've lost hard otherwise and dropping fairy coverage making you a tad overly reliant on team support to break fairies, which can backfire.
 
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Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Hey, guys. I've been curious about what your opinion is on the so called best move in the game, stealth rock. So, to add some context as to why I wanna know your opinion about this move. As it is obvious, boots is now a thing and every single pokemon that is scared to death of rocks are now suddenly unafraid of it. I mean, pokemon like :Cinderace::Moltres::Zapdos::Tornadus-Therian: and :Mandibuzz: are not that easy to wear down. Knock off is a thing but with the exception of maybe a toxic spikes spamming :Toxapex: or spikes spamming :Ferrothorn:, knocking off the boots isn't gonna be easy

This brings me to what I wanna know and that is do you really think stealth rock is as important as it was in the previous gens or would spikes be better? If you wanna know why I asked that it is because of the meta's current biggest threats. The major threats in the game are :Garchomp::Magearna: and the soon to be banned :Urshifu:. What is the one thing they have in common? They don't give too much fucks about stealth rocks but spikes on the other hand, wear them down very quickly. Other major threats like :Heatran::Rillaboom: and :Spectrier: take more or less equal damage from spikes than they would from rocks

Naturally, forgoing rocks would be out of the question if you're team is vulnerable to something like :Landorus-Therian:. However, if you have something like a mixed :Garchomp: or dark :Urshifu: who just shits on Lando, then that's the time when I think skipping rocks is okay

So, what do you think? Is stealth rock that mandatory? I personally don't since I've never had a problem killing :Landorus-Therian: anyway while :Garchomp::Magearna: and :Urshifu: don't mind rocks that much along with other threats like :Nidoking:
 
I think nowadays, it is more easy to wear down birds and HDB users through status than Knock Off + Hazard damage. For example, i've started to run Toxic Excadrill on sand teams just to wear down birds like Zapdos and Mandibuzz, because, many times the Knock Off from a check can be telegraphed and not easy to achieve on the target you want; but right now, Knock Off is one of the best moves in the meta because it can cripple almost everything and you almost need one user on your team.
I think rocks will continue being almost a have on any competitive team, and backed up with status and knock off users to get out their most.
 
Hey, guys. I've been curious about what your opinion is on the so called best move in the game, stealth rock. So, to add some context as to why I wanna know your opinion about this move. As it is obvious, boots is now a thing and every single pokemon that is scared to death of rocks are now suddenly unafraid of it. I mean, pokemon like :Cinderace::Moltres::Zapdos::Tornadus-Therian: and :Mandibuzz: are not that easy to wear down. Knock off is a thing but with the exception of maybe a toxic spikes spamming :Toxapex: or spikes spamming :Ferrothorn:, knocking off the boots isn't gonna be easy



This brings me to what I wanna know and that is do you really think stealth rock is as important as it was in the previous gens or would spikes be better? If you wanna know why I asked that it is because of the meta's current biggest threats. The major threats in the game are :Garchomp::Magearna: and the soon to be banned :Urshifu:. What is the one thing they have in common? They don't give too much fucks about stealth rocks but spikes on the other hand, wear them down very quickly. Other major threats like :Heatran::Rillaboom: and :Spectrier: take more or less equal damage from spikes than they would from rocks



Naturally, forgoing rocks would be out of the question if you're team is vulnerable to something like :Landorus-Therian:. However, if you have something like a mixed :Garchomp: or dark :Urshifu: who just shits on Lando, then that's the time when I think skipping rocks is okay



So, what do you think? Is stealth rock that mandatory? I personally don't since I've never had a problem killing :Landorus-Therian: anyway while :Garchomp::Magearna: and :Urshifu: don't mind rocks that much along with other threats like :Nidoking:

I can offer my two cents based on how I feel about rocks and how both do in general. In my opinion on a plethora of builds, Stealth Rocks are a necessity on teams; whether boots are omnipresent or not. Stealth Rock is probably the most defining move in Pokemon history because of the chip factors, breaking sashes and the like.



For example I have a Jolly HDB Cinderace on the field and pex has just swapped in without rocks, as you predict the swap.

252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO

Say that you're in a scenario where Cinderace is your only reliable way of breaking pex (pretty subpar to say the least because some teams have some more semi-decent answers to it), and it's a slim roll. 42.2% chance of 2HKOing isn't just a simple abra kadabra.



And here is how much it will do with Stealth Rocks up.
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The main reason why I posted these calcs is because contrary to popular belief, Stealth Rock is the most defining move in the game because again, not only can this apply very important pressure vs fat that your breakers can take advantage of, but you can wear down a check to a certain Pokemon that is a threat to your team.



As for Spikes, they are just as good as Stealth Rock. Getting 3 spikes up opens up a huge opportunity vs Pokemon that usually don't care about Stealth Rocks. For another example, Hippowdon doesn't mind Stealth Rock chip damage as it takes 6%, but if you manage to get 3 spikes up you can chip down the Hippowdon. Then you have the ability to bring in your breaker and/or switch-in to the Hippowdon to get into a 3HKO - 2HKO range. If the omnipresent Hippowdon switches in they would take 31% damage from Stealth Rock and 3 Spikes putting your breakers in a certain KO range and racking up damage for more defensively oriented teams.



Leading back to your main question asking that are Stealth Rocks that mandatory, yes they are. I think Spikes are just as important as Stealth Rock to apply pressure on grounded opponents, and residual damage as a whole is a great mechanic to take advantage of in Pokemon.



#weartimbs!!
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
I think nowadays, it is more easy to wear down birds and HDB users through status than Knock Off + Hazard damage. For example, i've started to run Toxic Excadrill on sand teams just to wear down birds like Zapdos and Mandibuzz, because, many times the Knock Off from a check can be telegraphed and not easy to achieve on the target you want; but right now, Knock Off is one of the best moves in the meta because it can cripple almost everything and you almost need one user on your team.
I think rocks will continue being almost a have on any competitive team, and backed up with status and knock off users to get out their most.
I agree with this. It's actually why Toxapex is my favorite pokemon right now since it can ruin Spectrier with knock off and toxic spikes forces the birds to come to defog it away, thereby guaranteeing that I'm gonna be able to knock off their boots

I can offer my two cents based on how I feel about rocks and how both do in general. In my opinion on a plethora of builds, Stealth Rocks are a necessity on teams; whether boots are omnipresent or not. Stealth Rock is probably the most defining move in Pokemon history because of the chip factors, breaking sashes and the like.



For example I have a Jolly HDB Cinderace on the field and pex has just swapped in without rocks, as you predict the swap.

252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO

Say that you're in a scenario where Cinderace is your only reliable way of breaking pex (pretty subpar to say the least because some teams have some more semi-decent answers to it), and it's a slim roll. 42.2% chance of 2HKOing isn't just a simple abra kadabra.



And here is how much it will do with Stealth Rocks up.
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The main reason why I posted these calcs is because contrary to popular belief, Stealth Rock is the most defining move in the game because again, not only can this apply very important pressure vs fat that your breakers can take advantage of, but you can wear down a check to a certain Pokemon that is a threat to your team.



As for Spikes, they are just as good as Stealth Rock. Getting 3 spikes up opens up a huge opportunity vs Pokemon that usually don't care about Stealth Rocks. For another example, Hippowdon doesn't mind Stealth Rock chip damage as it takes 6%, but if you manage to get 3 spikes up you can chip down the Hippowdon. Then you have the ability to bring in your breaker and/or switch-in to the Hippowdon to get into a 3HKO - 2HKO range. If the omnipresent Hippowdon switches in they would take 31% damage from Stealth Rock and 3 Spikes putting your breakers in a certain KO range and racking up damage for more defensively oriented teams.



Leading back to your main question asking that are Stealth Rocks that mandatory, yes they are. I think Spikes are just as important as Stealth Rock to apply pressure on grounded opponents, and residual damage as a whole is a great mechanic to take advantage of in Pokemon.



#weartimbs!!

That's a good point but spikes also does twelve percent to Toxapex so it's more or less the same. I've basically stopped playing for about a week because being at the mercy of a twenty percent miss chance is stupid but I played yesterday to try spikes out. I still did put rocks on my team but I barely bothered to click and when I did, I instantly regret my decision. Spikes was more useful because I don't care about Landorus Therian and I really hate Magearna. I legit rage quit whenever I see a shift gear Magearna

And on that note, other than the boots reliant pokemon, are there others who are hit hard or neutrally by rocks that actually take damage from it? I don't think there really are is since only Landorus Therian or Hydreigon are the only ones that eat rocks while spikes wear down nearly everything just as quick or even quicker. I did only base this on the current ou list tho and not the full list of viable pokemon
 

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