Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

, the only good types are electric, psychic, and ground.
Most Choiced attacks can still break through. Not at all an argument, just wanted to clarify that it isn't unbreakable by the likes of rillaboom. Lots of mons pack ground coverage not only for it, but also for Heatran, such as Melmetal, Hydreigon, and Dragonite. A lot of pokemon also run psychic coverage but that's just for pex :/. You can also break through it with pretty much any invested special attack since Spdef pex isn't a thing atm.

Toxapex isn't as good right now as in DLC1 largely also due to Slowbro, who can afford to lose its boots for a 100% free future sight and teleport. Honestly when building I never think to myself "how am I going to switch into pex" like i did in DLC1, but that may also be partly due to the fact that a Clef is forced on all of my teams for urshifu anyways.

few answers that arent easily dealt with by the team style toxapex commonly associates with
Mons like Glowking, Nidoking, Tapu Lele, Taunt Roost Koko, Taunt Fini (sometimes) Latios, and Magearna are headaches for balance and can all beat Pex.
 
A bulky ass 150~/140~ defenses on a water/poison, with good ass recovery in regenerator and black sludge, and yet some think it isnt unhealthy.
152 and 142 are both big numbers, but pex has 50 base HP; factoring that in, it's not nearly as bulky as people like to believe. Mandibuzz, for example, is even bulkier both physically and specially, has Roost recovery and a great defensive typing, but nobody wants that to be suspected. A pokemon being hard to kill doesn't make it unhealthy. Pure bulk isn't what makes toxapex overbearing; it's the amount of threat it generates via scald burns and toxic spikes, and said bulk increasing the value of those things.
I think in this current meta it's in no way overbearing; there's plenty of things that can deal with it without caring about scald burns too much. Latis, Slowtwins, Magearna, Koko, Lele and Spectrier all spring to mind as things that can easily deal with it offensively, to say nothing of things like Rillaboom and Garchomp that just have to avoid a scald burn. Toxic Spikes also don't end up too overbearing IMO; Poison types like Nidoking, G-King, Amoonguss and other Pexes are all relatively easy to slot onto most teams, and it's pretty common to see teams with only 1 or 2 TSpikes-affected pokemon factoring in boots.
Bottom line is that you'll have to do more than just say it's bulky to convince people of any type of brokenness.
 
the idea that Pex is too hard to break right now is laughable

Urshifu, Cinderace, Spectrier, and Magearna all can easily blow through Toxapex (Band/BU, Electro Ball/Zen, Specs/Wisp, Specs/DD/CM+Thunderbolt respectively), and stuff like Nidoking, Rillaboom, offensive Lando-T, Suicune, Kartana, Tapu Lele, (Specs) Koko, G-Slowking, and more run can easily through Pex.

Scald is really annoying but it's only a 30% chance to burn - those are not favorable odds in a 1v1, which means even the physically oriented threats listed above will beat Pex in the 1v1 assuming they don't come in on a Scald (or Knock Off, depending on the set) on the switch in.
 
the idea that Pex is too hard to break right now is laughable

Urshifu, Cinderace, Spectrier, and Magearna all can easily blow through Toxapex (Band/BU, Electro Ball/Zen, Specs/Wisp, Specs/DD/CM+Thunderbolt respectively), and stuff like Nidoking, Rillaboom, offensive Lando-T, Suicune, Kartana, Tapu Lele, (Specs) Koko, G-Slowking, and more run can easily through Pex.

Scald is really annoying but it's only a 30% chance to burn - those are not favorable odds in a 1v1, which means even the physically oriented threats listed above will beat Pex in the 1v1 assuming they don't come in on a Scald (or Knock Off, depending on the set) on the switch in.
No one is saying that Pex is impossible to win 1v1 against, but the problem is that it is so Hard to make consistent progress in some games due to Pex because it can constantly fish for burns or quickly knock off switch-in's items and Then switch out of unfavorable matchups. Also, if you havent noticed half of the mentioned mons are really good because they break Pex or are only good vs it if they are specifically prepared. Now I am not saying it is the biggest problem in this meta because it is not even close but still after the remaining trio gets banned it could be something to consider I guess
 

Nickos

Quack
is a Smogon Media Contributor
I'm not the biggest fan of Pex and all that, but I think people are just really oversimplifying the ways we have to deal with it, not saying it's totally busted (sadly) but the amount of arguments just completely forgetting about Toxapex's access to Knock Off is astounding.

I mean yeah, you can blow it away with a Choiced user(never in one hit though), but then at full health you can just make it tank stuff like Adamant Banded Rillaboom's Wood Hammer, attack that does a maximum of 80% and Knock its Choice Band away and flee (you'll be at half health after this exchange thanks to Regenerator), next time, Rillaboom's Wood Hammer goes from doing 80% to barely 50%, which Pex can easily recover from, the same stuff applies for a huge amount of offensive mons, as you may notice that they do indeed need their items to even kill Pex reliably, another great example is Urshifu of course:

Goes from doing respectable damage
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
To failing to even 2HKO it, it can literally recover the most of the damage done to it by switching out
252 Atk Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

No need to mention what happens if Pex gets the "30%" with Scald. Other stuff like Slowking Galar, Nidoking and more sure hate losing their AV/LO too, because while they might still defeat Pex 1v1, they become much easier to deal with for the partners Pex is frequently being accompanied by.
Also, of course, why are we even discussing Toxapex's stats when it's been constantly proven that this thing is very rarely OHKOed by anything in practice?

Again, not saying Pex is incredibly difficult to deal with right now, specially with the Future Sight spam, but I just wanted to illustrate how people are seriously undermining it ITT
 
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I'm not the biggest fan of Pex and all that, but I think people are just really oversimplifying the ways we have to deal with it, not saying it's totally busted (sadly) but the amount of arguments just completely forgetting about Toxapex's access to Knock Off is astounding.

I mean yeah, you can blow it away with a Choiced user(never in one hit though), but then at full health you can just make it tank stuff like Adamant Banded Rillaboom's Wood Hammer, attacks that does a maximum of 80% and Knock its Choice Band away and flee (you'll be at half health after this exchange thanks to Regenerator), next time, Rillaboom's Wood Hammer goes from doing 80% to barely 50%, which it can easily recover from, the same stuff applies for a huge amount of offensive mons, as you may notice that they do indeed need their items to even kill Pex reliably, another great example is Urshifu of course:

Goes from doing respectable damage
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
To failing to even 2HKO it, it can literally recover the most of the damage done to it by switching out
252 Atk Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

No need to mention what happens if Pex gets the "30%" with Scald. Other stuff like Slowking Galar, Nidoking and more sure hate losing their AV/LO too, because while they might still defeat Pex 1v1, they become much easier to deal with for the partners Pex is frequently being accompanied by.
Also, of course, why are we even discussing Toxapex's stats when it's been constantly proven that this thing is very rarely OHKOed by anything in practice?

Again, not saying Pex is incredibly difficult to deal with right now, specially with the Future Sight spam, but I just wanted to illustrate how people are seriously undermining it ITT
I think another thing that people tend to overlook is how easy it is to cover pex's weaknesses with your team. All three weaknesses (electric, psychic, and ground) all have natural immunities that are easy to add to a team. Lando T and Mandi both cover two of pex's weaknesses in one slot while Pex covers their weaknesses in return. This makes strong neutral hits the better option because of how hard it is to deal chip damage that sticks.
 
No one is saying that Pex is impossible to win 1v1 against, but the problem is that it is so Hard to make consistent progress in some games due to Pex because it can constantly fish for burns or quickly knock off switch-in's items and Then switch out of unfavorable matchups. Also, if you havent noticed half of the mentioned mons are really good because they break Pex or are only good vs it if they are specifically prepared. Now I am not saying it is the biggest problem in this meta because it is not even close but still after the remaining trio gets banned it could be something to consider I guess
I think that's fair, but the increased ease of pivoting stuff in via Teleport, especially in conjunction with Future Sight, make it easier than before to deal with Pex since there's more ways to bring in breakers vs Pex that avoid taking a Knock Off or Scald on the switch in.

Mind you, if the remaining potentially-busteds (Mag, Spectrier for sure will be suspected at some point IMO) leave, Pex might prove to be unhealthy (if not broken) and warrant a suspect.
 
:cinderace:

I would like to talk how ridicolously underrated of a set 4 attacks Cinderace is. I got 33 and 4 in a night thanks to this set + LO Shifu. Running U-Turn is absolutely a waste, like it used to be on Ash Gren back in Gen 7. Pyro Ball, HJK, Sucker and Gunk breaks basically every defensive core around, and to be effective you need all of them at once. The only mon you miss out the 2hko with the aforementioned moves are Zapdos, Moltres, Mandi, Slowbro and Pex. The birds are forced to Roost at every 120 base power STAB move you throw at them, considering each does around 46%: they are a Knock Off away from falling to Cinderace's attacks. Slowbro and Pex are thougher to deal with, but the fact that this mon forces them in can easily be exploited by Ace's teammates with a double.
I cannot overstate how good this mon when paired with Knock off support, with Urshifu being the busted mon that it is, considering how wears everything down and how enjoys Fini getting Gunked, or with Future Sight support demolishing Zapdos, Moltres and Pex.
 
:cinderace:

I would like to talk how ridicolously underrated of a set 4 attacks Cinderace is. I got 33 and 4 in a night thanks to this set + LO Shifu. Running U-Turn is absolutely a waste, like it used to be on Ash Gren back in Gen 7. Pyro Ball, HJK, Sucker and Gunk breaks basically every defensive core around, and to be effective you need all of them at once. The only mon you miss out the 2hko with the aforementioned moves are Zapdos, Moltres, Mandi, Slowbro and Pex. The birds are forced to Roost at every 120 base power STAB move you throw at them, considering each does around 46%: they are a Knock Off away from falling to Cinderace's attacks. Slowbro and Pex are thougher to deal with, but the fact that this mon forces them in can easily be exploited by Ace's teammates with a double.
I cannot overstate how good this mon when paired with Knock off support, with Urshifu being the busted mon that it is, considering how wears everything down and how enjoys Fini getting Gunked, or with Future Sight support demolishing Zapdos, Moltres and Pex.
IMO Adamant + Life Orb on 4 Attacks (non-U-Turn) Cinderace is the way to go - that extra power lets Cinderace just beat the birds outright, and Mandibuzz is threatened with a 2HKO if Gunk Shot poisons (or even if Pyro Ball burns IIRC). Yea the chip is annoying, and losing that speed tier isn't the best, but Adamant LO Sucker Punch is pretty good speed control in and of itself.
 
IMO Adamant + Life Orb on 4 Attacks (non-U-Turn) Cinderace is the way to go - that extra power lets Cinderace just beat the birds outright, and Mandibuzz is threatened with a 2HKO if Gunk Shot poisons (or even if Pyro Ball burns IIRC). Yea the chip is annoying, and losing that speed tier isn't the best, but Adamant LO Sucker Punch is pretty good speed control in and of itself.
That depends wildly on the team. Being Adamant means that you underspeed non scarf Kart, which is a very big threat in general, but if you have the right team (Zapdos/Moltres + secondary grass check) I would agree that Adamant is the way to go. Kart is also the only mon you lose out by going Adamant, considering that you hit 337 speed, which is higher than Chomp (333), the mon immediatly below Kartana if you order the OU tier by Speed.

I don't personally like Orb, considering how common Clef is and how much Ace likes to switch into Moonblasts. HDB are also so ridicolously good on an offensive mon that the added longevity lets it actually do a lot more damage in the longer run. On webs offense or hyper offense in general though, where the turns in which Ace has to deal its damage are much less, I'd agree with you on Orb being very good.
 
Hey OU...
The posible ban of urshifu gonna make Protect Great Again. Before this thing come to existence Protect was a nice move and key in WishPort Cleafable playstyle.
This gonna make Balance great again also....
 
I think that's fair, but the increased ease of pivoting stuff in via Teleport, especially in conjunction with Future Sight, make it easier than before to deal with Pex since there's more ways to bring in breakers vs Pex that avoid taking a Knock Off or Scald on the switch in.

Mind you, if the remaining potentially-busteds (Mag, Spectrier for sure will be suspected at some point IMO) leave, Pex might prove to be unhealthy (if not broken) and warrant a suspect.
Teleporting a mon in for Pex and Pex switching out hurts the switch in but helps Pex with regen doesn't it? And your second thought "Pex isn't a suspect because there are other busted mons in the tier" isn't helping your argument much either. Not that I have a prob with pex or even mentioned it, but your second thought is pretty revealing.
Anyway, recently I was thinking Offense is going to run out of tools before Defense in terms of optimization. Defensive mons can keep re optimizing their spreads as the threat list gets reduced by bans and offensive mons have more or less shown all of their cards already. I wonder which defensive mons are going to drastically change their spreads or how defense is going to re optimize after the next ban.
 
Teleporting a mon in for Pex and Pex switching out hurts the switch in but helps Pex with regen doesn't it? And your second thought "Pex isn't a suspect because there are other busted mons in the tier" isn't helping your argument much either. Not that I have a prob with pex or even mentioned it, but your second thought is pretty revealing.
Anyway, recently I was thinking Offense is going to run out of tools before Defense in terms of optimization. Defensive mons can keep re optimizing their spreads as the threat list gets reduced by bans and offensive mons have more or less shown all of their cards already. I wonder which defensive mons are going to drastically change their spreads or how defense is going to re optimize after the next ban.
Banning Urshifu actually lets Offense have much more breathing room. Orb Urshifu destroys a lot of them just by virtue of LO Sucker Punch doing even 38% to resists you may find in offense like Koko.
To not be Urshifu weak you have to run Balance or Bulky offense. You have to use mons that drain you momentum, like Fini, Clef and Buzz, and in turn make you weak to other common teammates you may commonly find on Urshifu's side, like Spectrier, Nido, Mage or Ace.
It's never about just Urshifu, but Urshifu + some breaker, that makes it as dumb as it is and forcing teambuilding into bulkier teams.
If Urshifu is gone, breakers below its speed tier that get OHKO'd (or close to being) by its stabs become much more viable. If anything, Urshifu getting banned is better for Offense, just like it is for Mosa not forcing you to use 2 mons just to check it.
 
You have to use momentum sappers to handle Cinderace, Spectrier and Magearna as well on bulkier builds, don't think this only applies to just Urshifu. Ursh more unhealthy than flat out broken because of some of the 50/50 toss up it applies in games, which is a better reason for the boot than implying it's totally broken unlike Magearna. It's large constraint is there but it's been overblown the past couple of weeks and the other 3 mentioned invalidate most of the bulkier options for Urshifu anyways. There's not a point where Ursh will ever really snowball out of control and the Ursh checks are for the most part the same for every variant. The 3 mentioned below can change the dynamics required to handle them based on the variant faced. This isn't to say Ursh shouldn't get the boot but Cinderace arguably a worse pain for Offense because of boots negating hazards and higher speed tier and it only has one good consistent defensive check in Toxapex for the bulkier builds (outside of Electro Ball meme :pikuh:). Bro, Molt, Zap insert non Pex check susceptible to poison chances due to Gunk and in some cases Adamant Ace can also change how you have to deal with it.
 
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And your second thought "Pex isn't a suspect because there are other busted mons in the tier" isn't helping your argument much either. Not that I have a prob with pex or even mentioned it, but your second thought is pretty revealing.
I didn't make the claim that Pex isn't busted because there are other busted mons, which is a bad argument I agree. I was talking about the general idea that Pex is too hard to break right now, when all of the potentially-busted mons I listed and more have ways to break past it fairly consistently.
 
Anyway, recently I was thinking Offense is going to run out of tools before Defense in terms of optimization. Defensive mons can keep re optimizing their spreads as the threat list gets reduced by bans and offensive mons have more or less shown all of their cards already.
Clefable used Copycat!
Clefable used Final Gambit!
Yeah, all the cards have been shown. No room for creativity left. Never mind that things like Dracozolt, Aegislash, Mixed Kyurem, and Dragonite exist that can chop and change their sets to break through any of their answers you like. And that's without going into the broken duo of Magearna and Cinderace that can pick and choose their answers at will.

Offense inherently has more options than defence. If you don't believe me, then find me a defensive mon in UUBL. That's kinda why stall sucks atm. It's impossible to build a stall team which competently handles all the breakers available in the tier (it was like this even back in WishPort meta: the most broken part of WishPort was the extra longevity it gave to breakers without recovery, not walls that had recovery anyway.) And that's without taking into account offence playstyles like Screens/Veil, Rain, Spikes spam and straightforward setup spam. Not to mention lesser used playstyles like Trick Room, Terrain offense, Sun and Hail, Webs, bulky playstyles like Sand, VoltTurn, and more.

Anyway, as for Pex, it was broken in old Gen 8 metas because not enough things switched into it consistently over a game and beat it. Now tons of things switch into it consistently over a game and beat it, so it's not broken. Simple.
 
I know the meta is kinda stale rn and everybody is kinda just waiting for Urshifu to be banned, but I've been using quite a fun mon to great success and I wanted to share it here.

:xy/Jirachi:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Aura Sphere
- Psyshock​

I noticed while playing the meta that most balanced teams right now have their steel type check in terms of Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Zapdos, Moltres, and Toxapex. Furthermore, a lot of people are being really greedy and running Zapdos without Heat Wave, or Slowbro without status or coverage, or Ferrothorn with only 1 offensive move. Seeking to exploit that, I made up this set to use these consistent patterns and turn them into set up bait with SubCM Jirachi, and built a team around it. The result actually exceeded my expectations a lot and this gimmick turned into a real wincon more often than not.

The idea is to set up a sub as the opponent switches to their :Zapdos: or :Slowbro:. After 1 CM, Scald and Volt Switch/Discharge do not break sub, and the opponent is left with a +1 Jirachi behind a sub to try and figure out how to deal with it. I paired it up with Slowbro so that Slowbro can spread burns with Scald, as most defensive pokemons like Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and Tornadus-T can't break Jirachi's sub with Knock off after a burn.

Jirachi's base 100 speed is also actually really good in the meta, as it outspeeds important threats such as Urshifu, Hydreigon, Kyurem, and Nidoking. I can't tell you how many times I got free kill on a Nidoking or an Urshifu because the opponent thought they would outspeed.The coverage of Psyshock + Aura Sphere is surprisingly good and can actually end a lot of balance teams that aren't lucky enough to have a Mandibuzz or a Heatran. +1 Aura Sphere OHKOs Urshifu, 2HKOs Hydreigon and Tyranitar, and has a good chance of OHKO-ing Excadrill after a very small chip.

This set will not be able sweep teams after 1 CM, but once it sets up behind a sub, it can easily get 2-3 Calm Minds or just fire off multiple +1 attacks to slowly chip down the enemy team, and it becomes excessively hard to beat unless you have multiple things to outspeed it, which is actually rare in the meta right now.

0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 70-84 (20.5 - 24.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 58-69 (17 - 20.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk burned Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 67-79 (19.6 - 23.1%) -- possible 9HKO after Leech Seed recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 63-75 (18.4 - 21.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

+1 252 SpA Jirachi Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 328-388 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Once I started using this set, I was surprised how this set can take unprepared teams by surprise and sweep, and was more surprised that it can successfully, with the right support, chip down even really well made balance. But what was the MOST surprising is that it can actually use :suicune: and dual dance :Magearna: as set up bait, due to the bulk, natural typing, and Psyshock. I'm not talking about 1v1-ing them, I mean Jirachi can switch into them while they set up and still beat them with ease despite being one or even multiple turns behind in tempo.

+6 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (320 BP) vs. +5 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 109-128 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+5 252 SpA Jirachi Psyshock vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 169-199 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. +3 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 94-112 (27.5 - 32.8%) -- 81% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 SpA Jirachi Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 241-285 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

To be honest, I wasn't going to post this set here because I was trying to get #1 on the ladder and post an RMT, but the team I had was too weak to stall and Kyurem and there's too many stall in high ladder for me to care enough to change the team. Plus everyone up there already has seen this set multiple times which sucks because this set definitely has some surprise factor. Highest I got is #38 and I also got reqs so I guess I'll settle for that. So because I was going to post an rmt, I took an extensive amount of replays. So just pick and choose whatever you want to see.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1251379045-6ifhy1dqu6zp5esgr6b10fqszsn2z7rpw - Nido/Shifu balance destroyed by Rachi, Tox/Clef/Zapdos are set up bait
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1248759657 - Jirachi breaking a solid balance using Zapdos to set up
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1250155021 - SubCM Jirachi sweeps sand
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1250154786 - A burn on Ferrothorn turns into a sweep vs. common balance
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1251068078-jioajab0xrqa5u2aeaxwi6v75yuic4jpw - SubCM Jirachi completely taking over
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1251302167-wjla4ll1evfumxmdntubntsc4tefayhpw - Using Tornadus-T as set up bait
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1249455867 - Great game with great doubles. SubCM Jirachi slowly breaking opposing team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1251065398-rtip41e6yvqkrss9dj8el4anxqoblj5pw - Jirachi beating unprepared SemiStall
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1248604668 - Opponent makes one mistake and gets swept, despite being in the lead

Its main counters are :mandibuzz::corviknight:, these 2 need to be weakened for Jirachi to get through them, but if they're status'd they can be set-up fodder. SpD :Heatran: will also stop you as it doesn't take much from Aura Sphere, but it can be weakened throughout the match with hazards, teammates, knock offs, and Jirachi himself. Another weird counter is the combination of teleport mon :slowbro::slowking: + fast u-turn-er that can break sub aka :cinderace: and scarf :landorus-therian:, but it only works if your opponent knows what this Jirachi set does. More often that not they already lost a mon or two before figuring it out. Also :Dragapult: with Infiltrator will stop your sweep unless you have multiple CM already set up, so make sure you don't reveal your set early vs. a Dragapult.

Tl;dr: what started off as a gimmick to take advantage of greedy teambuilding ended being a surprisingly decent mon. Of course, it's outclassed by Magearna for the most part and it needs a decent amount of support, but it has its unique niches of being able to outspeed the majority of wallbreakers, and beat most CM users 1v1 and potentially reverse sweep. It's also good vs. Magearna HO :D. I wouldn't recommend it in high high ladder like 1850+, but below that it should be surprisingly good at breaking balance and punishing slow wallbreakers.
 
For the shift tommorow, is there anything likely to fall to uu or lose some usage, or the opposite and mons maybe rising or increasing more in usage????
 
For the shift tommorow, is there anything likely to fall to uu or lose some usage, or the opposite and mons maybe rising or increasing more in usage????
People are starting to realize that Buzzwole isn’t that great outside of countering Urshifu and a few other things that aren’t important because Urshifu is the biggest problem by far, as despite what its 139 base attack would suggest, it’s pretty passive and drags your momentum a lot. And Latios was *this* close to falling last month, so there’s a good chance UU will be suffering quite a bit this January.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
I honestly just use Buzzwole for inflicting some chip damage these days. I mean, being safe from both Urshifu and sd Garchomp is nice but it really is passive. I literally put in max hp and max attack with substitute on my Buzzwole as a stupid ev spread joke and it somehow worked. It does get walled by that unkillable abomination, Toxapex but then again, that thing is annoying as hell. Its attacks suddenly hurt and beast boost increasing its attack suddenly makes it a threat. The only thing I hate about Buzzwole is how it wants roost, ice punch, drain punch, leech life and sub on the same set but has to give up one

Honestly, I think the tier shifts should wait until dark Urshifu is banned. I mean, that's literally the only reason poor Latios is fairing so poorly. Also, I thought it was mentioned somewhere that it would go back to something like shifts only every three months?
 
should be using earthquake these days on buzz for pex the ice/drain, roost, toxic variant kind of sucks relatively speaking, if anything the set ben has in his archive with metronome leech, eq, pjab, roost.

There's a number of reasons Latios doing poorly and matchup against Ursh mostly 50/50 but a lot of other reasons like Spectrier, Mag.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Earthquake on Buzzwole sucks for me. It only does forty eight percent max to physically defensive Toxapex with max attack, which is nothing considering how near unkilllable Pex is. And yeah, I may have exaggerated on that Latios part but it still stands, ghosts and psychics are gonna be miserable with Urshifu in the tier, well, except maybe for scarf Lele
 
I feel Buzz is under explored as anything other than an urshifu check.

Buzzwole @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge / roost
- Earthquake / roost
- poison Jab / roost

Team needs will determine what your third attack should be or you can be a savage and just run 4 attacks. But in that case you obvi lose defensive utility. Anyway this set is great imo cause you still cuck urshifu while Jab 2hkos clef and fini, eq 2hkos pex . Edge anihilates Moltres and does a ton to defensive zap and has a chance to ohko a variant that would be faster than you and CC just obliterates things, even clef takes 38% . The speed tier it hits is actually pretty clutch it outpaces heatran and all of the things that speed creep it with 254 - 255 speed. All in all I think urshifus existence is what makes everyone think this guy has only 1 dimension . It's still great against fighting and grounds and isn't total deadweight in other situations imo.

Also I forgot to mention you tank anything Rillaboom goes for and have a 62.5% chance to ohko with CC. Unless they're running acrobatics for no reason .
 
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Earthquake on Buzzwole sucks for me. It only does forty eight percent max to physically defensive Toxapex with max attack, which is nothing considering how near unkilllable Pex is. And yeah, I may have exaggerated on that Latios part but it still stands, ghosts and psychics are gonna be miserable with Urshifu in the tier, well, except maybe for scarf Lele
With an Adamant Nature, Buzzwole does 44.7% to 52.6%

252+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 136-160 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 136-160 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

What this means is that provided Stealth Rock or a layer of Spikes are up, Toxapex is cleanly 2HKOd should it be holding Rocky Helmet or any other item that doesn't grant passive recovery. Even if it is holding a Black Sludge, the lower calc shows that a 2HKO is still possible and should be respected by the opposing player. And it is entirely possible for Buzzwole to run Life Orb as well and jack up the damage output to a 2HKO regardless of whether or not you run Jolly or Adamant.

EDIT: How funny, the guy who just posted above me had a similar idea in mind.
 

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