Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)


Kyurem @ Never-Melt Ice
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power

Idk if this was posted before, but this is a pretty fun Kyurem set to use. Specs is strong, but mispredicts can screw you over. So naturally, a Kyurem that can switch moves can be quite menacing. Nothing is quite as satisfying as watching an opponent switch in their Kyurem answer (whether its a bulky water/Heatran/sp. def Tyranitar) and watching it get blown apart by a follow up Freeze-Dry or appropriate coverage move.

As for the item, I toyed around with Life Orb, but I prefer Never-Melt Ice because you can bluff a Choice Specs and catch the opponent off guard. Kyurem clicks either Ice Beam or Freeze-Dry most of the time anyway, and Earth Power/Focus Blast doesn't really need a boost to dent/kill its targets (Heatran, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, w/e).

If Earth Power/Focus Blast seems redundant, maybe replace one with Roost for longevity. Of course, pair this with Knock Off/Hazards to get rid of annoying Assault Vest/Boots users.
If you're going to use roost I'd also make the item Life orb, which makes the set kinda like a bulky latios
 

For the love of all that is holy ban this thing. If the opponent isn't packing a Normal type (of which there is only one in OU) a proper set up from ANY point in the game can spell gg. With a Sub+Disable set packing Calm Mind and Shadow Ball, it finds ample opportunities to get it's stuff going among the common fat glue mons in Mandibuzz (even with Knock), Toxapez (even with Haze), Clef, and Corv. It goes without saying that the Offensive mons of the tier can't hope to switch in on this thing and come out with enough HP to retaliate, lest they just become fodder for the (incredibly poorly designed) Grim Neigh, but even fatter mons can do jack diddly squat to try and force it out if the switch is read with the aforementioned Sub+Disable set. It's a very bad sign when not even "sack and pray" works because Grim Neigh giving it even more pure power.
Neither me or my opponent were exceptionally high ELO (high/mid 1500s), but I think it articulates my point very well, one bad move cost my opponent the game in just a few turns.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1249429917-d7nerxy2uuexh3n77p56pfawq5df0r6pw
The fact that I built this team to scope out Future Sight+Urshifu as a threat and slapped Spectrier on as an afterthought, and it proceeded to be the shining star on my team and take me from 1300s to cracking into 1600 all in an hour or so of play, speaks volumes.
TL;DR this thing is a real NIGHT MARE
 
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I want to give my personal, and small opinion about Spectrier.

Rn this horse is considered one of "The Big Three" alongside Urshifu and Magearna. While it lacks movepool, Spectrier has great Special Attack and Speed, one of the best ofensive typings in mono-ghost, and a great ability. Everyone who has encountered or even used this mon knows very well how powerful it is, but, for me, it's the least problematic of the current "problematic" mons.

I'm not denying the fact of how dumb and powerful this mon is, it even centralizes the meta to the point that people are even using Blissey with Shadow Ball to stop it, but in the current state of the meta, I see Spectrier's situation similiar to Pheromosa's situation when DLC2 dropped, and I'm talking about how she was not "broken" at all when Genesect, Naganadel, Landorus-I, Kyurem-B and Zygarde were available. Welp, Spectrier is not going to be complety broken until the more problematic mons get banned. Apparently everyone is looking at Urshifu-S right now, and who can blame them? If in a future Shifu get suspected and banned (I'm not desperate for the council to make a suspect right now. If anyone in the council reads this, take your time, I admire your work and dedication), that's when Spectrier will unleash it's full potential since one of it's best checks got banned. If hypothetically speaking Magearna is next and gets banned, Spectrier will benefit even more.

TL;DR, Spectrier is not problematic or ban worthy... yet. It only will be if Shifu and/or Mag get banned first.
 
Everyone is complaining about Spectrier and Magearna and asking for multiple bans when the OU council already said theyre suspecting them one by one so there's no use complaining about them. Instead, here's 2 already viable sets on balanced that are very underrated and can both check Spectrier and Magearna. I've personally been addicted to them.

:Hippowdon: @ :leftovers:
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
- Toxic

I'm a huge Hippo enthusiast. Every gen, no matter what, even when in gen 7 he was UU for a period, I'm always on the hippo train. SpD set is currently my fav atm as it checks half the special threats in the tier. On top of it, it poses a strong threat offensively as Earthquake hits surprisingly hard while Toxic can be spread pretty easily. Best of all, it can reset weather since weather is pretty rampant rn with rain/sun and having that option is really cool.
It counters Tapu Koko, Regieleki, and Aegislash
It soft counters Zapdos and Nidoking
It checks Heatran, Magearna, Spectrier, Latios, and Volcarona

Tapu Koko and Regieleki are obvious. Aegislash can't do anything either.
"soft counters" because basically they counter 80%+ of the sets they run. For example, Nidoking can never 2HKO with anything bar Ice Beam, but it can OHKO back with EQ. Zapdos can't 2hko with Hurricane unless its Specs, or you know if the your opponent has built in mind reader in his keyboard and confuses you.
As for checks, Latios is also walled unless it's trick, or specs Surf. The chance of Specs Draco Meteor 2HKOing is actually low. Heatran can wear you down with Toxic and Magma Storm with the occasional Taunt, but at least Hippowdon can switch-in a couple of times. Volcarona is 1v1'd unless it's Safegaurd or Sub. Spectrier actually cannot 2HKO with specs unless they get the drop, if rocks are up the chance is low. EQ breaks Spectrier's sub even when burned, unless heavily invested in HP/Def. Magearna is 1v1'd in all of its sets bar specs Ice Beam. However Hippowdon cannot switch into it. Hippo also actually counters Shift Gear + CM Magearna completely (unless Ice Beam shuca or something random).

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 165-196 (39.2 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 154-183 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 187-222 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 159-187 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and trapping damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 201-237 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 191-225 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk burned Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 90-106 (26.3 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

:Clefable: @ :Heavy-Duty Boots: or :Leftovers:
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast
- Knock Off / Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave / Heal Bell / Wish

CM Unaware Clefable has been a personal favorite for the past maybe 4 years. I love this mon because not only can it counter pokemon MG Clef already counters, but it can also counter set up threats and even pose a solid wincon. I usually only run this on my semi-stall teams but I feel like there's so many set up threats in the current metagame that its worth putting on some balance teams.

Physical set-up threats that Unaware Clefable can counters: BU Urshifu, SD Rillaboom, and SD Chomp (LO is checked not countered).
Physical threats that MG Clefable checks but Unaware Clefable counters completely: DD Dragapult, DD Dragonite, and SD Hawlucha,
Set-up threats that are only countered by CM Unaware and can be used a set up bait: Volcarona, Suicune, MG Clefable, SubCM Spectrier, DualDance Magearna.

Yeah that's right, it doesn't matter if your Wisp Hex Spectrier or SubDisable nasty plot, Clefable will set up CMs and potentially reverse-sweep your team. If Spectrier sets up a sub on the switch, and then either NPs, CMs, or Wisps while you CM, you 1v1 it. Magearna also can never match Clefable even with Stored Power, as long as you switch into Clefable immediately.

Last moveslot can be anything, as per usual on Clef. Thunder Wave can bait in Heatran, Knock off is awesome, Rocks if you need it, Wish is also nice for team, while Heal Bell is a solid cleric and can make Clefable's sweeping potential even higher.

252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 181-214 (46 - 54.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
+6 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (320 BP) vs. +6 248 HP / 8 SpD Unaware Clefable: 104-123 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 16.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 0 SpA Unaware Clefable Moonblast vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 174-204 (52 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think pretty much 90% of people agree that Urshifu/Magearna/Spectrier are broken and should be banned, so just give it time. Instead of complaining about the same things over and over, we can just keep moving the discussion in a healthy direction :blobthumbsup:
 
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That seems daft ngl. The only other mons ive seen suggested are Spectrier and Mag - neither of whom ive seen as much backlash to as Shifu.

Plus just cos other stuff could be banworthy too, doesn't make Urshifu any less banworthy
I'm fairly certain the post you were replying to was hypothetical, but backlash is not really why things are banned. Prevailing opinion can definitely influence suspect tests, but it really only matters how much something restricts team building. Any of the pokemon you listed would be perfectly reasonable to suspect next. I think it will be pretty necessary to get all of them out of the tier eventually.
 

Jaajgko

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Jaajgko wait, how does Urshifu struggle against Toxapex when Pex cannot switch in to it?

252 Atk Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And that is not counting any choice band, which is a clean two hit kill or something close, or life orbs which they usually carry
Many teams use physdef Toxapex to scout Urshifu's move and then bring in their bulky dark resist. Since Toxapex can recover about half of the damage it took from banded Wicked Blow, it can do so many times in the game. It can also PP stall wicked blow which only has 8 PPs. So yeah, usually facing Toxapex is quite troublesome for Urshifu, which is why it often has Future Sight support.
 
If in a future Shifu get suspected and banned (I'm not desperate for the council to make a suspect right now. If anyone in the council reads this, take your time, I admire your work and dedication), that's when Spectrier will unleash it's full potential since one of it's best checks got banned.
Urshifu is hardly one of Spectrier's best checks. It drops in two to Specs/+1 Shadow Ball, loses to SubDisable, has no recovery and for good measure risks getting burned and then dropping to Specs/+1 Hex in one next time it comes in. Arguably Spectrier forcing you to run a second check on a team with Urshifu is one of Urshifu's biggest downsides.
This is why, for reference for all those asking, we can't suspect all these threats at once: If Urshifu goes, thereby a slot (or two!) you would spend on counterplay gets freed up for Spectrier answers and so on. Rather than having to run Clefable+physically bulky Pex, you can run Blissey and a Specially Defensive Pex if your team needs that. Or you can use the slot you were spending on Shifu on a different, bulker Dark Type.

That being said, I very much support the spirit of this statement. Each of these has to go through a suspect to avoid a Cinderace situation where the retest of a quickbanned mon takes priority over other things which are considered more pressing. And say, if two of them get banned, that could open up enough space in the teambuilder to answer the third. My personal suspect order would be Shifu/Spec/Magearna/(possible Cinderace suspect, but waaayy too early to say).

I also want to mention that Tornadus-T is absolutely absurdly good. It has so many options against bulky builds or just as a Defogger. I'm amazed at how much it has gone under the radar because offensively, teams just run out of Flying resists in the long term, and with Boots it is impossible to wear down, even if you land a Toxic on it. Nasty Plot just feels a bit greedy, but it's yet another option to add to the "fuck Pex tbh" pile. Knock is Knock and Toxic is Toxic and fast U-turn is free chip. The 4MSS can be an issue, but all its sets have ways to force progress. No Pokemon should have this many options and be this hard to punish, but it does and it is. Enjoy.
 
I want to give my personal, and small opinion about Spectrier.

Rn this horse is considered one of "The Big Three" alongside Urshifu and Magearna. While it lacks movepool, Spectrier has great Special Attack and Speed, one of the best ofensive typings in mono-ghost, and a great ability. Everyone who has encountered or even used this mon knows very well how powerful it is, but, for me, it's the least problematic of the current "problematic" mons.

I'm not denying the fact of how dumb and powerful this mon is, it even centralizes the meta to the point that people are even using Blissey with Shadow Ball to stop it, but in the current state of the meta, I see Spectrier's situation similiar to Pheromosa's situation when DLC2 dropped, and I'm talking about how she was not "broken" at all when Genesect, Naganadel, Landorus-I, Kyurem-B and Zygarde were available. Welp, Spectrier is not going to be complety broken until the more problematic mons get banned. Apparently everyone is looking at Urshifu-S right now, and who can blame them? If in a future Shifu get suspected and banned (I'm not desperate for the council to make a suspect right now. If anyone in the council reads this, take your time, I admire your work and dedication), that's when Spectrier will unleash it's full potential since one of it's best checks got banned. If hypothetically speaking Magearna is next and gets banned, Spectrier will benefit even more.

TL;DR, Spectrier is not problematic or ban worthy... yet. It only will be if Shifu and/or Mag get banned first.
Another user explained why (to me atleast) Urshifu isn't Spectrier's best check. And while I do believe that Spectrier is somewhat broken, Urshifu supposedly getting banned will only hurt him.

I do know that I'm theorising and nothing ahead can be proven, but bear with me.

Hypothetically, say Urshifu and Magearna do get banned. Then the plethora of dark types both of these were keeping under their foot will rise up. Think about it, Bisharp has access to both Knock Off and Sucker Punch. Isn't OHKO'ed by +1 Shadow Ball with Timid 252 SpA with Specs, can OHKO back. Can also go for knock off if Spectrier is Sub WoW or Sub CM and predicts a sub or WOW. (Even with burn Knock Off does 79 - 92% , making it unable to use substitute). And his utility doesn't end there as he can punish defoggers and go to town with +2.

But how can Bisharp survive in the same meta as Urshifu ? Urshifu invalidates the use of many dark types which would otherwise check Spectrier. Same goes for Magearna. SG + CM Magearna abuses Mandibuzz, Specs Magearna can take a hit from Dragapult and KO back. With both of these gone, Spectrier will be easier to deal with.

I may have been hasty in the past and said I support an Spectrier test (and a part of me still does), but after two days of deep thought and an aspect I mentioned but failed to address, my opinion may have swinged. The council has already said multiple mons wouldn't be suspected at once, as the meta undeniably shifts after a ban. And I have just some concerns that being hasty in forming our opinions may lead to (some of) us becoming too stubborn and voting on Spectrier based on his viability or brokeness in a meta completely different to the meta he may be suspected in.

Again, I don't have any prove that Urshifu or Magearna even affect Spectrier or will they be suspected before/after it, but compared to the brain-dead bear and Annabelle, the horse feels much more debatable and the meta shift may make it less unbalanced. Just my two cents on why the three shouldn't be quick banned or banned at the same time.

Side note :- I started in late gen 7 and was brushing up my knowledge on the past meta game, and I came across the suspect test thread of Mega Lucario, Genesect, and Deoxys - S in XY OU. I can't help but notice that there were way to many similarities.

Mega Lucario - Urshifu :- Both were brain dead and the opinions were highly one sided in the test. Only difference is that Mega Lucario could run both physical and special while Urshifu only needs one set to screw over the meta.

Genesect - Magearna :- Both are steel types whose arguably best sets were choice items ( Scarf and Specs) and both had a pivoting move. Difference being that Mag can take a hit and retailiate while Genesect just U turned until it came in a position to sweep. Also, both had a set with Shift Gear.

Deoxys S - Spectrier :- Both were the most debatable suspect. While there similarities don't lie in their archetypes but rather the communities view on them (from what i've seen).

It's not even important, just something I found wildly amusing.
 
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Finchinator

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I do know that I'm theorising and nothing ahead can be proven, but bear with me.
Gonna stop you here. Theorymon isn’t allowed. We suspect and ban based off of the current metagame state. Using future theory and what could happen is not something involved in this process. If other problems pop up, we deal with them when they do pop up in the future.
 

Like most people, I've got my fair share of grievances with the current meta as it is right now; that said however, I believe it still has potential to be a really great meta. I think a good way to describe this gen of OU in comparison to the recent few would be 'pure', since the Dynamax ban there's been no gimmicks, there's no tack-on nuke Z-Moves and no convenient cover-all Hidden Power to crutch on while building, and while in one way that makes things more formulaic under certain circumstances, I think it has potential to lead to lead to more creativity in the use of lures and bait breakers/support. There's still a lot I dislike about the tier right now, and a lot of things I think are being slept on as well as trends I think could emerge or remain, I'll cover those too.

Lures, baits, and breakers:


Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
Koko's around lately more as a Screens pivot for the most part I'd seen, but I think its Specs set deserves more credit than it's getting. The absence of Hidden Power hit it quite hard with its lack of ability to spam a consistent anti-Ground coverage to catch its Electric immune checks with HP Ice or to remove a particular annoying Durian with HP Fire. That said, while the aforementioned durian is still a wall for Koko, Grounds are still not as safe as they'd like to believe with Grass Knot being able to catch Hippo, Gastro, Swampert and such for the O/2HKO and Specs Gleam catching Chomp and all variants of Lando-T for the 2HKO. Losing HP Ice may make them feel more comfortable to switch in, but it is capable of dealing substantial damage to all of these checks.
Partners include the obvious Regieleki who appreciates these threats also removed. Supported on a 'heavy offence' HO structure with a series of other breakers to continue to bait and overwhelm these mons like Cinderace, Magearna, Melm, Nidoking etc make for a solid E-Spam squad. Sand teams also appreciate this set for obvious reasons, being able to chip your Sand Rush sweeper's checks is the main focus of any typical Sand BO team, but not only Exca is your main beneficiary now, but Zolt as well who struggles with these same checks (E-Terrain boosted Bolt Beaks are also terrifying).


Magnezone @ Chople Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 Def / 116 SpA / 140 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Substitute
A potential partner to the above Specs Koko, as well as common Ferro and Corv lures like Rillaboom and Lando-T, ID Press Zone is still a mon that has great potential. While Metal birds' usages are on the vast decline, Ferro is a very solid pick in the meta to cover a lot of threats including Fini, Lando, Magearna, Melm, and others. We also play in a meta where contact chip is one of the best ways to force progress vs opposing breakers and Ferro is a phenomenal option for that. It's very safe to say that a tool specifically designed to remove the annoying durian is a boon to a lot of teams, and with so many mons, new and old, free to lure it in and pivot off of it into Zone make it very effective in its ability to do so. On heavy offence structures it also serves as a great way to force damage on things like Tran, Melm, and possibly Magearna; in spite of the fact that it will likely lose the 1v1, being able to guarantee chip on those threats could go a very long way towards cracking an opposing team.
Partners include the previously mentioned Rillaboom, Koko, and Lando for reasons mentioned before. Sand balances also appreciate its ability to remove these pesky Excadrill checks. Shift Gear Magearna also loves having its Steel walls forcibly squashed to allow for a clean sweep late game.


Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Crunch
- Ice Beam / Fire Blast
With the return of Lando and Chomp and the rise of Ferro, T-Tar now once again has reason to tack on its special lure. Fuck, if you're a real man then you can run full Specs and run them both plus Hydro Pump to catch Hippo too, but my balls are too small to recommend that. There's really nothing to explain here besides this should pretty much be on every T-Tar, it's a perfect bait for those mons and Sand Rush partners would absolutely love them gone or hurt.


Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam / Flamethrower / Thunderbolt
- Substitute
Nidoking's been an underrated mon for gens now, but with Hidden Power being gone people would really appreciate a cover-all breaker that just has the potential to kill everything. You don't know what you've got to answer this thing with without a lot of scouting first, and that means it puts a lot of pressure on teams that don't have a certain pink fat thing on them. It can serve as a very convenient glue breaker you can tack on to fill your offensive shortfalls.


Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere / Mystical Fire / Surf
- Roost
Latios is incredibly underrated and more people should be using it. Gaining fantastic coverage that covers for the absence of Hidden Power, it's at least as capable a breaker as it used to be. Trick Specs was my choice early meta but I've really fallen for the flexibility of Life Orb Roost, allowing for potentially greater longevity and the ability to switch up moves making it less prediction-reliant and more versatile for only a minor trade-off in power is awesome, though being able to cripple pink things with Trick is quite nice too. It works on a lot of team structures from balance to heavy offence and can deal a lot of damage to checks it lures in to allow your chosen sweeper to clean effectively.
Spectrier loves this thing with its ability to lure in T-Tar and catch it with the Aura Sphere, while also being able to do solid damage to Heatran, Ferro, and Melm similarly. Magearna and possibly CM Clef also appreciate the ability to bait and hit fat Steels. Urshifu is also a great partner given how they cover each others' checks 1v1 with the exception of Clef who they can easily overwhelm together.


Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
Gengar is another mon that doesn't really have any checks. I've got Sub Plot up there as an example, but LO Plot three attacks with Sludge Wave and/or Thunderbolt is a great option too, as is Specs. It's being somewhat overlooked as the premier Ghost type right now is obviously broken Spectrier, but unlike the rejected MLP villain Gengar actually has coverage which allows it to function much better as a mid-game breaker in comparison to Spect's usefulness as a late-game sweeper. Focus Blast and T-Bolt allow it to lure and catch its checks such as T-Tar or Mandi, Sub allows it to play around with Urshifu's Sucker Punch mind games or turn Bliss into set up fodder, and if you're really feeling saucy you can try a Destiny Bond trapper set to guarantee the removal of your opponent's Ghost check, but that's more hilarious that actually practical most of the time.
Partners can include pretty much everything as, similar to Nidoking, pretty much every team values the idea of a breaker that can kill whatever you want to kill. In particular I'd like to re-emphasise Spectrier, as Gengar already has the ability to overwhelm the average Ghost check, what better to make use of that than the ultimate Ghost sweeper? Another pairing for heavy offence HO.


Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Superpower
- Rock Slide
- Ice Punch
Melm is one of those mons that has the ability to select its checks, and while it's absolutely no longer the broken hulk it used to be in the pre-DLC meta, it's still a fantastic breaker. Rock Slide is not all that common on Melm lately, and that's kind of understandable with Heatom being almost out of the picture right now and Slide's lack of overall coverage in comparison to the Elemental Punches, but it does have a particular usefulness vs some certain Kantonian pains in the ass. Contact status birds are a cheap way of dealing with a lot of physical breakers, Melm included, so what better way to handle them than ensuring the OHKO, or at least massive damage with Rock Slide without having to risk making your Melm useless after?
This is more of a specific slot as opposed to a blanket coverage slot like the Elemental Punches would be, so most likely you'd want this to support another breaker who struggles with these birds such as Rillaboom and Kartana. These birds are also responsible for the rapid decline in U-Turn viability, which means prediction-reliance in games has gone back up compared to the DLC1 days where you could just chain 5 U-Turners and a Rocker together. That being considered, pivots like Lando-T and Cinderace who suffer greatly from the adverse affects of contact status would love their chance to start clicking U-Turn back as soon as possible.


Clefable @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Stealth Rock
- Trick
- Soft-Boiled
In a meta where Fu, Spect, Mage, and Ace are all insane low risk high reward monsters, there's very reason not to run a set which enables these things even more while offering other near mandatory supportive functions as well. Clef is already on a sickening amount of teams because it kinda has to be, so giving it the ability to force turn by turn chip on things it lures in such as Pex, Bliss, and fat Steels in order to limit their abilities to check the likes of the aforementioned broken threats is a no-brainer. No, seriously, it's pretty brain-dead.


Landorus-Therian (M) @ Power Herb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fly
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
This one is one that I think is a bit more ahead of its time, but I've had faith that this will eventually become a staple pick, and I still have faith that it will soon! Discount Supersonic Sky Strike functions in basically the same way as before, luring in fat Grasses and Buzzwole and taking them out, though forced to run SD to get the OHKO on Tang now.
Supporting Sand sweepers and Rillabooms on Sand BO and heavy offence will be its premier usage, and with its general raw power it'll fit great as a supportive breaker on both those archetypes. Get it while it's hot.

Sleeper picks:


I covered this above so I'll just briefly re-emphasise. This thing's dual STAB destroys most things and its last coverage slot can cover the rest, selectable by team support. It supports common breakers and sweepers on balance and BO teams as well as offering great offensive synergy on heavy offence structures. It shouldn't not be used.


Also mentioned above, due to the abundance of Ferro that need killing and Rillaboom that need supporting, Zone needs more usage. And hey, its Analytic set still has the ability to break through all of its checks over time. I think it's criminal that this mon is UU. As a supporting trapper I think it has a firm place in OU, and as the busted risk-free breakers of the tier go to Ubers jail Analytic Zone will go from being a niche pick to a top contender for offensive support very soon. Make no mistake that it's still potent now though regardless of competition.


Similar to Zone above, these things are also a potent overlooked breakers. The best checks are good predictions, on paper they probably 6-0s most of your builds. They face stiff competition from the premier threats right now but you can make them work with the right support to get them in and out safely and often and mind my words if you're ignoring them now, you won't be later.


People are starting to use Crawdaunt more and that's a good thing, this thing on Rain, on HO, on whatever will always get you mileage. People are drinking the Banded juice right now, but I'm still personally a fan of SD. SD RillaDaunt is a very potent pairing with dual priority, disgusting power, and ability to overwhelm that still holds up.


I've talked a lot about heavy offence, but Thundy-I could have a lot of merit on more Lead/Breaker/Breaker/Utility/Speed/Sweeper type HO structures as a viable T-Wave pivot. Late towards the end of DLC1, HO teams started to run Sub T-Wave Pult and with good reason, having a fast T-Waver is a great way to ensure your offence successfully outpaces opposing offensive structures and supports, a Prankster T-Waver is an awesome option to do just that. Packing Focus Blasts for the immune Darks and being able to pivot off Electric immunities to safely bring in breakers like Daunt and Rilla, potentially giving them a free set up opportunity, I think could be invaluable. I've yet to experiment with this one, but I really see merit here. Perhaps Sub Plot could be a viable fat breaker in future too with the right support, but that might be a stretch without Hidden Power.

Shit I hate:



I'm not gonna beat these dead horses. They're busted out the ass and should be suspected as soon as convenient. I have no case to make that no one else hasn't already made, I'm just adding my name to the list.


Fuck me if these things didn't turn into the most annoying turds in the tier while not actually being broken. Rocky Helmet could be added to the list at this point too cuz everyone and their mothers are throwing that on everything now. Contact chip has made pivot support more of a liability than a support now, and it's simply no longer efficient to chain together pivots to take the prediction reliance out of some games anymore, or at least it's not so simple to do so anymore. Premier U-Turners like Lando-T, Rillaboom, Urshifu, and maybe Cinderace are now typically best without the move, and I think that's a big pain to Lando in particular, I would not be surprised at all to see Protective Pads being standardised in the near future (I've seen bulky Pads Rillaboom too, but let's not go there). In one way you can say it's a good thing that brainless pivot-spam is finally being punished, but with cheap RNG based low-risk high-reward strats it feels like the pendulum swinging the other way. I don't think anything can be done about this besides Pads and caution, but I really hate these.

Trends and predictions:
I've spoken a lot about 'heavy offence' throughout this post, and I really do think its an important thing to consider in today's meta. Balance and BO is incredibly formulaic as there's only such a fine line you can walk on to try and effectively cover the main beasts of the tier both offensively and defensively. The big four of Fu, Spect, Mage, and Ace are all so potent and require very specific things to keep them in check, add to that how potent they are together and you've got a team of 50% broken shit an 50% trying to check broken shit. I feel like with these things still loose that resorting to the extremes is an appropriate option right now; either go full stall to cover them all defensively or full HO to overwhelm things offensively. I'm not big on stall simply because with the potency of Fu+Future Sight, the splashability of Magma trap Tran, Taunt CM Fini, and the like, and the rise of hazard stacking, stall is just under way too much pressure to consistently perform. HO on the other hand has a myriad of breakers and sweepers to choose from who each posses great offensive utilities and can be strung together to overwhelm common structures without too much hassle. I think now is a good time to run an offensive team if you're bored of the 20 balance teams in your builder that all look the same.
I also predict in the near future that Sand BO will make a triumphant return. The upper echelons of the viability rankings show little in the ways of Ground resists or immunities and they do have the tools needed to achieve what they want to achieve. I think the fear of Rillaboom and Rain, while legitimate, is somewhat blown out of proportion and teams can still accommodate these without too much compromise in other areas. That said, when the number of things to prep for declines after subsequent suspect tests there's gonna be little excuse not to have some Sand in your builder.

Merry Christmas.
 

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Crunch
- Ice Beam / Fire Blast
With the return of Lando and Chomp and the rise of Ferro, T-Tar now once again has reason to tack on its special lure. Fuck, if you're a real man then you can run full Specs and run them both plus Hydro Pump to catch Hippo too, but my balls are too small to recommend that. There's really nothing to explain here besides this should pretty much be on every T-Tar, it's a perfect bait for those mons and Sand Rush partners would absolutely love them gone or hurt.
I think most Tyranitar on Sand BO should run Toxic. Excadrill and Ocelzolt are the premier sand abusers atm, and both struggle with Spdef Hippowdon and Physdef Pert. Tyranitar's toxic is a great way of softening them up so Excadrill can OHKO Hippo and Pert with +2 eq and Dracozolt can 2HKO both with Draco Meteor.
 
not suggesting anything just curious
are there any defensive mons that are either oppressive, centralizing, or constrict team building?
and if any of these defensive mons were removed would that lessen the hole left by removing something like urshifu?
look at this as 2 separate questions not a 2 part question.
 
not suggesting anything just curious
are there any defensive mons that are either oppressive, centralizing, or constrict team building?
and if any of these defensive mons were removed would that lessen the hole left by removing something like urshifu?
look at this as 2 separate questions not a 2 part question.
I don't have an immediate answer for your actual question, but I think Urshifu being banned would actually make the tier more offensive, rather than defensive. A broken breaker getting kicked out frees up a lot more room for balance and less bulky playstyles, cuz you no longer need to run, for example, Clefable, Toxapex, or Amoonguss on every team to beat Urshifu. HO and more offensively-oriented playstyles are only bound to improve with bans.

I think Toxapex could be suspect-worthy after all the other broken shit, though. At least, I've seen a lot of people complain about it.
 
not suggesting anything just curious
are there any defensive mons that are either oppressive, centralizing, or constrict team building?
and if any of these defensive mons were removed would that lessen the hole left by removing something like urshifu?
look at this as 2 separate questions not a 2 part question.
Toxapex was broken in DLC1. If the meta returns to something similar to that in the future we may look at a possible Pex suspect.
 
I think Toxapex could be suspect-worthy after all the other broken shit, though. At least, I've seen a lot of people complain about it.
You know, I was gonna make a really lengthy post about how Toxapex is a horribly balanced affront to game design, but to be honest, Spectrier and Urshifu might actually be worse. I really like breaking down game design choices, so might as well attempt to make it relevant to the conversation!
Sure, Pex can choose what it beats and has Knock Off for no reason except you suck, but Spectrier, too, can customize its sets to beat whatever it needs to. Some people even use Dark Pulse (which is very much not optimal) on the substitute set so it doesn’t get blanked by Chansey. Like, you think you have a hard stop to it, but then it blanks you instead of what should happen, which is the opposite. Its movepool sucks, which should be its fatal flaw (I remember everyone was making fun of it when the stats got leaked), but instead, it has pretty much all the tools it needs to beat whatever it must.
Urshifu isn’t really like that. It uses Close Combat, Wicked Blow, two other moves, you’re good now ok go win. It has good-but-not-incredible stats and a typing that historically should be TERRIBLE in OU, but who cares? Wicked Blow and Close Combat are strong enough that OU’s army of resists can’t stand in the way of them. Its other moves can kind of be chosen based on what you need for your team and whether you want to kill Clefable with cold iron or a toxic punch. Urshifu isn’t a mon that can be perfectly tailored to suit the unique needs of YOUR team, but when you have all of its bullshit, that doesn’t really matter, does it?
Basically, looking at them on paper, Spectrier and Urshifu have glaring problems that should make them easy to take care of even if you’re not specifically prepared to beat them. In fact, looking at past OU trends, Urshifu sounds like it should be crippled by its typing, and Spectrier certainly would be were Pursuit still in the game (Ghosts used to suck lol). Yet in practice, these “flaws” do not hinder them in the slightest and are merely an annoyance when building teams with them. I think so anyway, I don’t play very often nowadays and I’m not very high on the ladder so
 
You know, I was gonna make a really lengthy post about how Toxapex is a horribly balanced affront to game design, but to be honest, Spectrier and Urshifu might actually be worse. I really like breaking down game design choices, so might as well attempt to make it relevant to the conversation!
Sure, Pex can choose what it beats and has Knock Off for no reason except you suck, but Spectrier, too, can customize its sets to beat whatever it needs to. Some people even use Dark Pulse (which is very much not optimal) on the substitute set so it doesn’t get blanked by Chansey. Like, you think you have a hard stop to it, but then it blanks you instead of what should happen, which is the opposite. Its movepool sucks, which should be its fatal flaw (I remember everyone was making fun of it when the stats got leaked), but instead, it has pretty much all the tools it needs to beat whatever it must.
Urshifu isn’t really like that. It uses Close Combat, Wicked Blow, two other moves, you’re good now ok go win. It has good-but-not-incredible stats and a typing that historically should be TERRIBLE in OU, but who cares? Wicked Blow and Close Combat are strong enough that OU’s army of resists can’t stand in the way of them. Its other moves can kind of be chosen based on what you need for your team and whether you want to kill Clefable with cold iron or a toxic punch. Urshifu isn’t a mon that can be perfectly tailored to suit the unique needs of YOUR team, but when you have all of its bullshit, that doesn’t really matter, does it?
Basically, looking at them on paper, Spectrier and Urshifu have glaring problems that should make them easy to take care of even if you’re not specifically prepared to beat them. In fact, looking at past OU trends, Urshifu sounds like it should be crippled by its typing, and Spectrier certainly would be were Pursuit still in the game (Ghosts used to suck lol). Yet in practice, these “flaws” do not hinder them in the slightest and are merely an annoyance when building teams with them. I think so anyway, I don’t play very often nowadays and I’m not very high on the ladder so
Yea, specifically I really hate the movepool design for Spectrier. Looking at Spectrier's stats and ability it's broken, so they tried to "nerf" it by giving it a hilariously limited movepool (which they didn't really accomplish). This just turns an obviously broken mon into a still broken but not so obvious mon. These mons can blow through teams without the proper counterplay. Remember Regieleki? Modest Specs 2HKOs 0- speed Chansey after rocks with Electro Ball. The whole idea of "It's not broken because you can just use mon A, B, or C" really just clogs up the whole process. Had Spectrier gotten Moonblast we would all be done with this thing months ago but because they decided to "balance" it it's still clogging up our system as we speak. Of course, the same could be said for any newly released broken mon (poor zamazenta-C), so maybe I'm just being a complainer.

What I really wrote about was about how you made it seem like Fighting-Dark is a bad typing. For a long time, especially before fairies, Fighting-Dark was an amazing type combination. Mons like Darkrai and Lucario have used it in the past to great effect. Fairies coming along mandated a third coverage slot but that's 3 moves to hit the entire meta. CAP invented Tomohawk (Fighting-Flying type with intimidate) in part to help with this. Pangoro obviously isn't that good but bad speed, a not-so-great ability (Scrappy when half your stab is dark), and no stab priority, being bullet punch, means it does face a lot of roadblocks.
 
BOOYAH
Time to abuse it before it leaves :D

Honestly though, in my opinion after this suspect, we can slow down the testing for a while. As much as I hate Spectrier, and I do understand why people want Magearna banned, I think time should be given for the meta to settle. Maybe things will change after the suspect (assuming Urshifu's very likely ban), and maybe Spectrier will hopefully be easier to handle. I'm also posting this because I just know that people will be pushing for another suspect the moment this one is over (or even before it is).
 
Honestly though, in my opinion after this suspect, we can slow down the testing for a while. As much as I hate Spectrier, and I do understand why people want Magearna banned, I think time should be given for the meta to settle. Maybe things will change after the suspect (assuming Urshifu's very likely ban), and maybe Spectrier will hopefully be easier to handle. I'm also posting this because I just know that people will be pushing for another suspect the moment this one is over (or even before it is).
I am disagreeing very hard on leaving the metagame "to settle" after Urshifu suspect most likely removes it from the tier. I am not looking forward to dealing with Magearna in OU. (especially behind screens).


About Urshifu, after it gets banned, I'll run the water one. Its underrated anyways (not superior to dark, but still awesome) And yes, I am certain it will get banned. Otherwise more pressing mons would have been first on the chopping block (e.g. Magearna... again, how is this Mon OU again? It can run 3+ valid sets with different checks and can be slapped on every team archetype.)

(also didn't we have a poll? I don't remember Urshifu being on the poll at all)
 
BOOYAH
Time to abuse it before it leaves :D

Honestly though, in my opinion after this suspect, we can slow down the testing for a while. As much as I hate Spectrier, and I do understand why people want Magearna banned, I think time should be given for the meta to settle. Maybe things will change after the suspect (assuming Urshifu's very likely ban), and maybe Spectrier will hopefully be easier to handle. I'm also posting this because I just know that people will be pushing for another suspect the moment this one is over (or even before it is).
If (when) Urshifu-S is gone, the meta will certainly look much different, so I agree with you that we should let it settle. However, I unfortunately can only see Spectrier getting better. The omnipresent Urshifu-S was just another mon preventing it from mindlessly clicking shadowball. Obviously it wasn't the best answer, but Urshifu was definitely on the list of mons Spectrier would rather not see on the opposing team.
 
I am disagreeing very hard on leaving the metagame "to settle" after Urshifu suspect most likely removes it from the tier. I am not looking forward to dealing with Magearna in OU. (especially behind screens).


About Urshifu, after it gets banned, I'll run the water one. Its underrated anyways (not superior to dark, but still awesome) And yes, I am certain it will get banned. Otherwise more pressing mons would have been first on the chopping block (e.g. Magearna... again, how is this Mon OU again? It can run 3+ valid sets with different checks and can be slapped on every team archetype.)

(also didn't we have a poll? I don't remember Urshifu being on the poll at all)
Urshifu-S has a huuge influence on the tier. When it leaves, Clef are free to run Wishport spdef again, Mandi might run exclusively Spdef, and Buzzwole might drop to UU, not to mention how Slowbro's role would change now that the 2 best fighting types are probably gone. We haven't seen something as controlling yet in such an indirect way in a long time.

I mean come on, what does Clef really run Physdef magic guard for. Pheromosa? Urshifu? that's about it.
 
Clef runs Defense for non offensive Lando-T, unboosted Chomp, Lucha, and a handful of other things besides CM variants. There is real application to Clefs running Def> SpDef not just cause Ursh is in the tier granted that's a big reason now.

With that being said I agree with Pokeron the idea of waiting for meta stabilization is a bad idea . Phero was gone and it stabilized being revolved around Ursh, Spec, Mag within like a week and it was already like that when Phero was around just with Phero added on. You're attempting to stabilize a metagame with a bunch of unhealthy and centralizing mons in the tier that are too restricting in the teambuilder and creates extreme matchup problems. I don't buy the idea of letting a meta settle unless you have suspects that at least are questionably broken. You're suspecting stuff that's already hated by the community they're going to hit 70%+ thresholds in a voter account lol.

Granted I don't think it matters much now since a lot of this is dictated in the direction of whatever tours are being run, with SPL coming up. So we'll see then but Im not buying this argument of letting the meta settle since it settles after like 2 weeks into the same old routine anyways.
 
we may look at a possible Pex suspect.
knowing how much people like slower, bulkier play styles, I'll believe this when it happens

A bulky ass 150~/140~ defenses on a water/poison, with good ass recovery in regenerator and black sludge, and yet some think it isnt unhealthy.
like, the only good types are electric, psychic, and ground. electric is like, koko and maybe zapdos, so better hope a ground type like the omniking landorus isnt around, nidoking which surged recently, or hippowdon which is rare but sand uses it well so...
psychic is a fucking joke besides future sight right now, and with the copious dark types in urshifu and a good chunk of the DLC1 meta, it wont be tossed around as much.
ground is used by like, landorus and nidoking, but toxapex says fuck you and packs scald, which not only does intimidate not affect, but it can also burn.
The absurd bulk and amount of effort needed in teambuilder to plan around what if this urchin is who im facing against, while having few answers that arent easily dealt with by the team style toxapex commonly associates with, imo, makes it unhealthy at least. im down for a suspect test after the dark bear thing, whenever really.
 

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