Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Ain't No Rest For The Wicked

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talah

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Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to suspect test Urshifu-Single-Strike.



Since its release with the Isle of Armor DLC, Urshifu-S has been one of the most devastating offensive Pokemon in SS OU. The main factor behind Urshifu-S's consistency has been its signature move, Wicked Blow; an 80 Base Power Dark type attack with 100% accuracy that is guaranteed to critically strike. Access to Wicked Blow alongside an excellent 130 Attack stat and a very offensively powerful Dark/Fighting type combination means that only a specific subset of Pokemon, practically limited to defensive Fairy types and Buzzwole, can safely switch into its STAB moves. This is only made tougher to deal with once its ability Unseen Fist is taken into account. Unseen Fist allows Urshifu-S to break protection moves, meaning tactics of dealing with offensive threats such as Protect scouting are useless against it. Despite not being on the faster side of offensive Pokemon, Urshifu-S has access to Sucker Punch, giving it the ability to revenge kill faster Pokemon it otherwise wouldn't be able to threaten. However, Urshifu-S still suffers from an underwhelming defensive typing, leaving it without many useful resistances, as well as a quadruple weakness to Fairy moves. It's an incredibly potent offensive threat with some defensive shortcomings; this makes it so that finding room to make progress against more offensive teams with Urshifu could be challenging.

Urshifu-S can effectively run various offensive sets, but the most common and arguably most effective is Choice Band. Due to Wicked Blow's guaranteed critical hit and Close Combat's incredibly high Base Power, it sports a STAB combination that is very difficult to switch into. Common Fighting resists in SS OU, such as Landorus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian, and Zapdos, all risk taking a massive hit or in Tornadus-T's case, outright dying to Wicked Blow. Meanwhile, typical Dark resists like Mandibuzz are 2HKOd by Close Combat, while Pokemon without reliable recovery such as Magearna can take 2 Wicked Blows but will fall to a third one, meaning Urshifu-S can attack once, switch out, and grab a KO the next time it comes in. This limits Urshifu-S's pool of defensive checks to very few Pokemon, namely defensively-oriented Fairy types such as Clefable and Tapu Fini. However, Urshifu-S also has access to Poison Jab which hits them super effectively, 2HKOing both of the aforementioned Pokemon. Sucker Punch makes up for Choice Band Urshifu-S's middling Speed stat, rendering revenge killing it that much harder. Another common strategy of dealing with Choice Band Urshifu-S is using a physically defensive Regenerator Pokemon (generally Toxapex or Tangrowth) to scout the move it locks into, paired with Pokemon that can safely stomach 2 of its chosen move. Even then, Choice Band Urshifu-S is able to overwhelm such counterplay as games draw out, so playing against it can be challenging. Additionally, those Regenerator Pokemon can be overcome by pairing Urshifu-S with a Future Sight user such as Slowbro, who can also pivot Urshifu-S into the field safely through Teleport and making Toxapex/Tangrowth unable to switch into it.

Urshifu-S doesn't need to run Choice Band, though. Urshifu-S can use an all-out attacking set with Wicked Blow, Close Combat, Poison Jab or Iron Head, and Sucker Punch alongside Life Orb to eliminate the Choice lock effect but still retain monstrous offensive capabilities. AoA Urshifu-S makes the aforementioned strategy of Regenerator scouting highly unsafe, as the opponent can no longer safely switch the Regenerator Pokemon out safely. Even a physically defensive Clefable can't reliably take Wicked Blow into Poison Jab from it, and it makes predicting against it even harder. The recoil from Life Orb does put Urshifu-S on a timer, but its sheer power makes it worth it nonetheless; that said, Urshifu-S can elect to use Drain Punch over Close Combat to give up some immediate power in favor of longevity, but it is harder to make use of in some scenarios. Alternatively, it can use Metronome instead of Life Orb, making it worse at the hit-and-run playstyle it tends to like as it needs to attack multiple times to inflict the damage it would otherwise, but making it harder to pivot around. Bulk Up over one of Sucker Punch or Poison Jab makes Urshifu-S a threatening sweeper, as the tier's most popular special attackers like Spectrier, Magearna, and Heatran, are unable to threaten it when it is already in the field. It makes pivoting around Urshifu-S that much harder, as even a physically defensive Toxapex fears a +1 Life Orb Wicked Blow after minor chip, but it uses up a valuable turn to set up instead of attacking immediately.

Due to the very specific and limited nature of Urshifu-S's counterplay options, the means with which teams choose to deal with it tend to be predictable, and Urshifu-S can force favorable scenarios for its user very consistently; Clefable will need to use Soft-Boiled, Toxapex will need to switch out to get Regenerator and so on. This makes overwhelming the defensives cores used against it easier than said defensive cores remaining steadfast against it. Moreover, due to how powerful Urshifu-S's STAB attacks are, as well as its access to strong priority, once defensive counterplay against it has been dealt with it is significantly harder to deal with compared to most other offensive threats. Without a defensively invested Dark resist, Wicked Blow is impossible to deal with; historically consistent physically defensive blanket checks, such as Landorus-Therian, are helpless against a guaranteed critical hit that breaks Protect while nearly every offensive Pokemon gets dismantled in one hit by it. Because of this consistent access to such uniquely powerful and easy-to-use tools, Urshifu-S doesn't require the user to click many moves, therefore eliminating any playing around it through guesswork that other offensive powerhouses can be liable to.

Urshifu-S is not without any negatives. Urshifu-S's counterplay, despite being very limited, is already comprised mostly of Pokemon that are incredibly solid in the metagame and would be used regardless like Clefable, Tapu Fini, and Toxapex. Predicting around Urshifu-S may be challenging, but locking into the wrong move can lead to Urshifu-S being able to be taken advantage of, causing similar challenge for the Urshifu-S user. Prediction is not a reliable form of counterplay, but it is possible to mitigate this risk through using Pokemon with Regenerator like the aforementioned Toxapex and Tangrowth, especially if they're holding a Rocky helmet, or more niche options like Buzzwole. Finally, Urshifu-S's defensive capabilities leave a lot to be desired, and getting it into the battle can be difficult. It struggles switching into most relevant Pokemon, as it's threatened by even the common defensive Pokemon. Owning to this, Urshifu-S really likes having pivoting support from teammates such as Magearna's Volt Switch and Slowbro's Teleport, thereby limiting the teams it can potentially fit on. All of that said, Urshifu-S maintains decent defensive stats and can survive a fair amount of neutral and resisted hits from other offensive Pokemon, making it able to threaten them 1v1.

All in all, Urshifu-S has remained one of the most effective offensive threats of the SS OU metagame throughout its stay in it. Counterplay to it does exist, but it is inherently very restricted, thus arguably restricting teambuilding to a very unhealthy degree. Its consistency in dealing huge damage through STAB moves that break protection make it uniquely difficult to handle defensively and limit team structures much more than offensive Pokemon typically do; all the while being nigh impossible to handle without using the aforementioned counterplay. Because of this consistency, its finite but delicious movepool options do not present it with a problem, and using the moves outlined above are all it needs to be good. In light of these reasons, the OU council has decided Urshifu-S is worthy of a suspect test.


  • ***THIS IS NEW TO SS OU SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUTW. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUTW talah.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspect being tested, Urshifu-Single-Strike, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
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  • Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until January 9th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:


  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
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    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
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Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Moderation team.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering! Kebab mlml
 
I personally believe Urshifu is too much for OU to handle. Having such a devastating offensive type as well as the ability to completely ignore protect is too much for pretty much anything to handle. If you look at any other offensive Pokémon, they all have ways to punish protect, but unlike Urshifu, there is risk involved with that. Garchomp is my best example simply because I use him a ton. Garchomp is able to punish protect with swords dance, allowing it to clean house on a correct prediction, but the key word there is “on a correct prediction.” Your opponent can predict the swords dance and punish that just as much as you can predict and punish their protect. Urshifu makes protect a non factor, forcing dangerous 50/50 situations, and even if you have one of its few semi reliable checks, iron Head, poison jab and u-turn bypass them.
With the combination of absurd power, great STAB, and nullifying protect scouting, Urshifu has proven itself to be too much in my eyes, and thus I believe it deserves a ban.
 

ironwater

formerly Doom desires
is a Tiering Contributor
Hi there, I’m here to share my thoughts on Urshifu Single-strike and explain why in my opinion it deserves to be banned.

urshifu.gif


No one can deny that Urshifu hits really hard. Indeed, thanks to its double 120 base power stab and its access to poison jab for fairy types, he is able to hit almost all the mons in the tier.

He basically has two sets which both have their qualities and flaws. The first one and most common is the choice banded one. The other one is the Bulk up Life orb set (you can also use black glasses). You can consider playing a choice scarfed one but it’s way easier to check and so not that good in the current meta.

If the choice banded one is way harder to switch into, the Urshifu player still need to click the right move. It can also be checked by things like Rocky Helmet Toxapex coupled with Clefable or Mandibuzz. The Bulk up variant is more flexible as you don’t have to lock yourself into one move. Playing Bulk Up however, prevent you from having both Sucker punch and Poison jab. One solid counter to both these variants seems to be Buzzwole. Urshifu could run Aerial Ace but almost all of them don’t as it’s not that worth it because it means losing Poison jab or Sucker Punch for a move that will hit literally one mon.

Here is a non-exhaustive list of mons that can check Urshifu or at least preventing him from clicking some of its moves:


:buzzwole: Probably the best Urshifu counter is this meta. With Rocky Helmet and Roost you’re completely walling non Aerial Ace Urshifu and the Rocky will weaken it easily.

:toxapex: Pex comes freely on Close Combat but get 2HKO by banded Wicked Blow. However, thanks to Regenerator, it can still come on Urshifu to give him Rocky cheap. If the Urshifu clicks Close Combat or Pjab you get a free turn. If he Wicked Blow you can switch in your Dark resist (like Mandibuzz for instance)

:mandibuzz: So as I way saying it, Mandi can wall Urshifu If played in combinaison with things like Pex. You cannot switch in Mandibuzz directly on Urshifu however as Close Combat will 2HKO you and contrarily to Pex you don’t have Regenerator.

:clefable: One of the most solid Urshifu counter is Clef. You can take both Close Combat and Wicked Blow (if you are max defense). Poison jab 2HKO you but is a big commitment (for the banded Urshifu at least).

:tapu fini: Pretty much the same as Clef but without Soft boil to heal yourself. Sure, you have Draining kiss but if your opponent has a Pex or a Steel type, he will easily prevent you from regaining hp.

:tapu koko: Koko is not often played defensively with roost but in an offensive team, he is still able to come on Wicked Blow and Close Combat and pressure the opponent team in return.

:hawlucha: In offensive teams, Koko is often played with Lucha which can take one hit from Urshifu and set up a Sword dance on him.

:tangrowth: Wicked Blow and Close combat are both a roll to 2HKO Tang. Thus, it can play the same role as Pex with a Rocky Helmet, but you will need to have both a switch into Wicked Blow and Close Combat.

:magearna: Mag comes on Wicked Blow pretty easily and threaten Urshifu. However, you are 2HKO by Close Combat and you need draining kiss and leftovers to regen your health (same as Tapu fini).

:urshifu: Hard switching your own Urshifu is a high risk high reward play. If the opponent Close Combat you will lose your mon. If he Wicked Blow you reverse the situation and it’s now your opponent who must find an Urshifu switch in. Pay attention to non-lock Urshifu as you may have to win a tie.



Thus, Urshifu will force certain mons and cores but still has a decent amount of counterplays and most of the mons that help dealing with him are not here only for Urshifu but are good mons in the meta.

So why should Urshifu be banned then? Well even if they are counterplays able to deal with Urshifu alone, this mon becomes really threatening when he has the appropriate support. Here, I’m mainly thinking about Future Sight + Urshifu. If we take a look at the list above, almost none of these mons can take both the Future Sight and Urshifu’s hit. Of course, you’ll need to fire a Future Sight which will give one free turn to your opponent. But in a Match-up where your opponent does not have the tools to threaten Slowbro and Slowking (who are the main Future Sight users thanks to Teleport), you will pretty easily break its defensive cores.

In particular, I feel like Future Sight + Urshifu completely negates more defensive playstyles as stall teams won’t be able to prevent Slowbro/king to safely fire a Future Sight and Teleport out into Urshifu. Even things like Mandibuzz struggles againt this as the Urshifu player may just mindlessly click Close Combat until you hard Mandibuzz and you will need to heal it before Urshifu comes back.


To conlude this, my thoughts on Urshifu are that even if he is manageable by some defensive cores that do very well in the meta, Future Sight + Urshifu is way harder to handle and just destroys pretty much all defensive cores. It is for me the main reason that explains why I think Urshifu must be banned from OU.

If you made it this far, well thank you for reading my thoughts and I wish you good luck for reaching those reqs.
 

Zneon

Ya like jazz?
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Hi everyone, so with another suspect thread, another long suspect post by me at your service, this time with Urshifu. Urshifu has been one of the most dangerous and consistent threats in the metagame ever since it was released, and funnily enough, I find Urshifu to be harder to deal with now than in the DLC 1 meta and I want to explain my thoughts on it again and why I find it to be the case.

Urshifu has a total of 3 consistent checks and 1 counter. Its checks being Clefable, Tapu Fini and Galarian Weezing and its only consistent counter being Buzzwole. Clefable, Tapu Fini and Buzzwole are the ones I want to focus on here since Galarian Weezing is pretty bad in this metagame right now, these are the most viable answers to Urshifu, so as a whole viable and consistent Urshifu answers come down to a whopping 3 Pokemon in total and that should say a lot about how sparse counterplay is to Urshifu. Without these Pokemon, Urshifu is a hell to deal with, it has basically no switch ins since with its STAB combo alone it can 2HKO or OHKO almost every Pokemon in the metagame that isn't Fairy-types or Buzzwole, and there's another thing I want to point out with Urshifu which is how it pairs with other Pokemon and how it influences teambuilding.

First of all with Future Sight. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Urshifu is the best abuser of Future Sight in the tier and by a very significant margin, because its defensive counterplay really only falls down to a small pool of Pokemon and when you add Future Sight in the picture it really doesn't have any checks at all really. Clefable has to be in pristine condition to take on Urshifu with a Future Sight up and its not realistic to have Clefable at near full the entire game, so there will be one turn where CC / Wicked Blow + Future Sight will dent Clefable to the point where it cannot really check it at all anymore or switch into it. Tapu Fini, even without a Future Sight up is very prone to being worn down over the course of the game and that's a big problem long term if Tapu Fini is your only Urshifu check, because of how easily and consistently it makes progress, and Buzzwole cannot switch in whatsoever because Future Sight will just bop it, meaning that with a Future Sight up the opponent is always in a lose/lose situation. Something will get sacked either way and I feel no other Pokemon exploits this better than Urshifu does.

Another way to deal with Urshifu is by having a Fighting resist and Dark resist on separate slots. For example having Toxapex + Mandibuzz on the same team, its a pretty good way of dealing with Urshifu however I feel that it comes to another issue I have with Urshifu and is how it negatively effects teambuilding, I felt the way ever since DLC 1 and it still applies now. Every team will always have to dedicate a slot on one of its few answers or 2 slots on a Fighting and Dark resist, and the problem is how its still difficult to deal with because you are only halting its inevitable progress making, but having little bits of support such as hazards being up or Knocking somethings Heavy-Duty Boots or Leftovers can make a huge difference in checking this Pokemon.

So yeah in conclusion, Urshifu is a menace and both unhealthy and broken in this metagame, and I feel its ban will greatly help when it comes to making teambuilding less constrained. I feel its too much for the OU metagame as it stands and thus should be banned.
 
I doubt I'll actually manage to get the proper reqs because I suck at playing Pokemon, but here's my two cents:
Urshifu-S should be banned. Not only does it have an amazing offensive typing, but it has an ability that goes through Protect and two 120BP stab moves. The only actual checks it has (Tapu Fini and Clefable) get steamrolled by Iron Head/Poison Jab. It restricts teambuilding because if you don't have an Urshifu counter, which at this point is basically just a choice between Magearna and Buzzwole (and even if you're using Magearna you lose to it if it's scarfed) you're completely fucked. Also I like Urshifu-R better so when this gets banned my favorite tardigrade will get more OU use.
 

Finchinator

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Urshifu is broken.

It limits building to using one of Clefable or Buzzwole if you want to be "safe" universally; the Mandibuzz+Toxapex cores of old work vs CB variants, but vs AoA or BU variants, you're in trouble there as well. Tapu Fini, RH Tangrowth, and faster Fairy types like Tapu Koko can help briefly or in moderation, but even then they are not going to be overly reliable answers as games drag out or you even get a single turn wrong.

Be it paired with Future Sight + Teleport, which is increasingly common, or hazards, Urshifu is able to break through even the bulkiest of teams with minimal support if they lack Buzzwole pretty much. While the metagame continues to evolve, there is one constant, dating back to even prior to DLC2's release: Urshifu. The metagame lacks the defensive counterplay for it and this is not changing.

As for offensive counterplay, it, too, is limited. Sucker Punch is able to deter plenty of would-be revenge killers. With even a little bit of chip or a Bulk Up, many faster, but frailer, options are going to be put in a tight spot when facing Urshifu as well. It is still possible to revenge kill if you have the right options on your team at least, but that's about all the credit you can give on this front.

Ultimate point is: Urshifu does not have enough counterplay, Urshifu is broken, and I will be voting ban on Urshifu.
 
Hi everyone, I don't usually use to share my opinion on any metagame but I felt like I needed to share my thoughts this time.
I personally believe like Urshifu-single strike is just being the spotlight just cause it's a mon that people like to use just cause of wicked blow and its 130 base attack, other than that, talking about its speed, there has been a huge speed creep in this gen what has made urshifu benefit a lot. That being said, from my experience playing this gen, which is a lot considering all the time I spend on the ladder, I think I have never felt like urshifu was something that was super hard to deal with, if you have a team this tier, you need to have a mon that can resist dark anyways it doesn't matter if it's gen 6 gen 7 or gen 8 due to the boost dark types received since gen 6. It is something that you need to account for. With that said, I am going to share a good list of potential mons that can absorb urshifu hits/can scare him out. You cannot run banded + bulk up life orb/blackglasses so you can scout what boosting move set the urshifu might have. Urshifu forces you to not run a tremendously passive team. Here is the list of mons that can absorb single-strike-urshifu assaults as well as scare him out that are very viable from my point of view:
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Buzzwole of course is just there for urshifu you might think, and that is a fact, if urshi doesn't have aerial ace or acro you basically wall it, poisonjab can annoy buzzwole a bit but it's not that big of a deal considering the team structures buzzwole use to fit in most of the times.
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Cinderace obviously can't switch in but it can force it out if beacuse urshi can be scared of High Jump Kick that is kind of a must these days due to the rise of the omnipresent heatran.
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Clefable can enter the field to scout what move urshifu locks into/scout it's set beacuse most of the times urshifu is going to click its stab moves which make clef a good pivot to urshi 252+ Atk Urshifu Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery adamant damage without life orb does that much.
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Hippo can swallow choice band adamant variants if it has boots to pivot once to scout the set and switch out to a resist. 252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon on a critical hit: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery but again, you just need your team not being super passive.
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Timid hydreigon with a bulky spread like this 252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon on a critical hit: 176-207 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO can swallow it's wicked blows and respond roosting all the health back without much drawback.
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This thing with
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like in DLC 1 to punish wicked blows + a dark type like this:
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can really put a brake in urshifu's assault.
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Have you guys ever tried this?
252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 302-356 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (302, 305, 309, 313, 316, 320, 324, 328, 331, 335, 337, 341, 344, 348, 352, 356)

1609127826565.png
Hawlucha can take it's both stabs and really all his moves an hit him in return if hawlucha is at full and you use it with some hp/defense investment which isn't really needed but the point is that it can take a hit from urshifu and strike harder in return.
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Chople berry melmetal can 1v1 banded or bulk up variants and can hit it with superpower or twave in return and due to it's high defensive stat nothing else is required really.
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For this guy, you need a bit more set up. I am not talking about swords dance, I am talking about an evspread I made for taking urshifus jolly wicked blow and kill it in return with superpower in a 1v1 scenario. just like with melmetal.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 104 Def Rillaboom on a critical hit: 288-339 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Possible damage amounts: (288, 291, 294, 297, 301, 304, 307, 310, 315, 318, 321, 324, 328, 331, 334, 339)

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Tapu fini only fears Poison Jab variants and it can hold scarf sometimes
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Same with tapu koko, if your koko has boots. and some hp investment 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko on a critical hit: 168-198 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO wicked blow doesn't have infinite PP and you can always play pro-actively.
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This thing is really just a 1 time check which doesn't count I guess but it can force urshi out.
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This thing can be a good example of a pivot to urshi, with access to sleep powder it causes offensive pressure for the opponent as well.
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Magearna can also work as a way so it is forced to use close combat predicting it to come in if you are using a defensive variant of magearna or a scarf variant.
Some other offensive options that can punish it and annoy it that are worth mentioning are the following:
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(if it lacks sucker punch)
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252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 308-364 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
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(if it lacks sucker)
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(this thing is really good if there is no heatran in the opposing side, this is ideal against urshifu teams which don't really have heatran as it is not that offensive of a mon speed tier wise)
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(maxspeedmaxhp)
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Will-o-Wisp fast mew/MistyExplosion on Hyper Offensive teams or even a scarf variant of this thing-->
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These are a few some few examples that come to mind right now. I will be voting no ban personally for all these reasons and therefore I don't think it's broken, in a nutshell, I think it is just good.

Thanks for reading, and I hope you guys have a fantastic day/afternoon/night!

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I probably won't get the reqs because I suck, but here are the thoughts of a person new to OU battling.

Shifu has always been overpowered. With it's massive attack and decent physical bulk, it is capable of sweeping whole teams with just STABS. The only reliable check in fairy types can also be ruined by PJab. Unlike the water form, which can be counterplayed with Helmet/Static, the dark form has no counters aside from Buzzwole.

Funnily enough, the ban of phero seems to have nudged shifu towards the ban hammer. Phero could easily revenge kill it with HJK/Focus Miss Blast since it can also live a sucker punch but then phero has it's own problems lol.

This alone would not make Urshifu too overpowered, but Unseen Fist I think is what pushed it over the edge. No more can you scout a Choiced Set with protect. Since the most common set is CB, it seems like the best counter to shifu is to sack a mon and bring your own shifu and just pray that you win the tie. I've also seen people run Scarf sets just to jabait the opponent.

The only exploitable weakness of Urshifu seems to be it's horrendous special defense. This could be exploited by fast/bulky special attackers like Mage, Volc, etc. Burning it with Ghost Horsey is also a good check as the Crit of Wicked Blow doesn't ignore burn.

The future sight support from the slow twins also makes the options very limited. Even the amazing Buzzwole can't reliably check Shifu as it gets bopped by Future Sight. Same goes for Clef, Pex and Tangrowth. This also furthers the fact that the only check to Shifu is often your own Shifu as it is immune to Future Sight.

All of these factors, Unseen Fist, The ban of Phero, The prominence of TeleSight, the amount of 50/50 situations it forces and the restriction it puts on teambuilding, make Urshifu too overpowered and I think it should be banned.
 

Freezerman

Banned deucer.
Just gonna copy paste my fuckin metagame discussion post-
URSHIFU-THE PILLAR OF OU'S BROKEN OFFENSE
so this is my first post in here and hope some council member sees this, so this is a request for suspecting urshifu-single-strike first as opposed to Magearna and spectrier as this pokemon fuels the threats on OU's offense playstyle.
OVERVIEW
:urshifu: :urshifu-rapid-strike:
Now urshifu looks strong already by its stats and type but its movepool jacks it up. First of all, it has two STAB moves with (effective) 120BP power. Dark/Fighting is an incredible STAB combo especially coming from a 130 base attack stat, both being only resisted by fairy types and certain dual types. STAB close combat is great as it hits 5 types super-effectively .It has strong coverage moves like poison jab and iron head which make up for the fairy weakness.However the demons in its movepool are Its signature move wicked blow and sucker punch. Wicked Blow is a 80BP move which always crits making its BP effectively 120, the critting factor lets it beat every defense boosting pokemon(besides ones with shell armor) and intimidate. Sucker Punch makes this pokes 97 speed deadly as it now can hit everything faster than it with a STAB 70BP move. In terms of boosting moves it has Bulk Up, which is fantastic for its stats.Now if its movepool wasn't ridiculously good it would've just been a top-tier breaker but its ability negates protect so things like clefable and toxapex cant use their protection moves against it.
STRENGTHS
Urshifu Beats defensive pokemon with Choice Band and offensive pokemons with Bulk Up. Its notable preys are
:slowbro: - OHKOed by dark stab and absorbs future sight
:dragapult: - either eating shadow ball or revenging with Sucker Punch.
:spectrier: - beats every set besides Sub disable
Steels weak to fighting :Melmetal: :Ferrothorn: and more- Hitting with STAB Close Combat.
Psychic Types :Tapu-Lele: :Latios: :Slowking-Galar: - Hitting with Wicked Blow
Defensive pokes 2HKOed by neutral STAB :Toxapex: :Hippowdon: :Zapdos: and more - Each one of these is 2HKOed by CB set.
Some big calcs
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro on a critical hit: 398-470 (101 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To prove power of sucker 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 219-258 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

CHECKS & COUNTERS
Checks-
(i) Defensive
Fairies with recovery :clefable: :Tapu-Fini: - "Checks" as these get blown up by poison jab

:Weezing-Galar: - Need wish support/healing vs Urshifu and is really dogshit in this steel ridden meta

(ii) Offensive
Faster Flying Types :Zapdos-Galar: :Tornadus-Therian: :Zapdos:- Be careful so they are not in sucker range

:Tapu-Koko: - 2HKOed by Wicked Blow so Keep it healthy

Faster Fighting types/sucker resists- Fighting types which are faster offensively check it great.
COUNTER
:Buzzwole:- Yes one pokemon which can beat this poke reliably without fearing anything but Aerial Ace due to its huge defense stat and Typing which resists its STABs. :swole: :swole: :swole: :swole: :swole:

ILLUSION CONFUSION
This pokemons brother, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike :Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: look same in Team Preview. This creats confusion for your gameplan as if you picked the wrong shifu you will have a great chance of losing the match. Example:- Letting dragapult die predicting
Urshifu-S and
Urshifu-R sweeping your team rightafter

WHY SUSPECT?
The reason i think this pokemon needs a suspect is how it fuels and makes already dangerous threats stronger. Some Strong Examples-
:Magearna: - killing steels and making a good volt-turn core while also beating all of urshifus Checks/Counters.

:spectrier: - Spect abuses whatever shifu Invites while Shifu kills darks and normals making sure spectrier cleans, also the abundance of urshifu in the meta pressures its checks(dark and normal types) and thus proves them unviable against other teams.

:Melmetal: - Beating fairies while urshifu takes care of the fighting types.

:Cinderace:- Takes care of Clefable with Gunk Shot while shifu breaks its two best checks in toxapex and Slowbro, breaking chomp and other physical dragons. And most of all making a strong volt turn core.

:Rillaboom: - Makes Urshifu not limited to run sucker and urshifu breaking steels while rillaboom kills Tapu-Fini. Also the gimmicky Grassy Seed set baits in and beat Buzzwole.

The fact that all of these already strong threats which become Overly broken due to Urshifu-S and the illusion problem make this pokemon the pillar of OU's broken Offense and thus needs a suspect as its riddance in this tier will make this tier more balanced ,as its "broken" partners will be missing thier supportive piller, and make pokemon such as bisharp and other dark/ghost types regain the place in this meta while not limiting teambuilding. Also this mon very cringe. Yea these are my thoughts and they havent changed yet.
Btw sorry for the urshifu suspect death threats you got from this post finch​
 
Hi there !

Firstly I wanted to share the team I have been using during my ladder games to get the reqs because some people asked for it. https://pokepast.es/3cbb047fb798fd0b

Urshifu was in the metagame before the second DLC was released. I might be wrong but I don’t remember that his presence in the metagame was as controversed as it now. We have more options to handle it even if they aren’t enough alone : new fairies / flying types which can punish a bad anticipation / buzzwole etc.

Don’t get me wrong, urshifu is still extremely good in the current metagame because it's two STABS are insanely powerful, also its speed tier is decent+ it can u-turn and bring momentum onto the field. It can punish its checks and counters with good predictions (eg:poison jabbing clef).
Even if urshifu is restricting a lot the building part which is indeed very unhealthy, I think its presence brings something very interesting for the metagame. Like a lot of very powerful mons right now, it orientates the metagame to very proactive builds or plays. If you don’t run something which can come into urshifu in a long term game (clef/buzzwole) but just short term switch ins (fini/roost koko etc) then the player will have to play actively to limit urshifu’s field entrances and to win before urshifu wins.

Indeed, we could say the same for pheromosa but pheromosa had something different : versatility/speed/snowball effect with beast boost.
Urshifu can become very difficult to handle with teleport + future sight support or even good pivots like magearna. Prediction isn’t a very consistent way to beat it too and his counter plays are very limited.

I think urshifu appears more threatening due to the fact that powerful new mons can benefit from urshifu getting rid of their checks/counters. Even with new checks and counters at disposal, it still ends up winning later in the game. Although, the mu is very playable and it all comes down to playing at the end. One has to play aggressively vs shifu matchups and has to take lots of risks. In conclusion, Urshifu is a great mon but I do not think it deserves a ban. For that exact reason, I'm going to vote do not ban.
 
Hello!

This post might not have a lot of new data or anything but from what I've seen(around 1000-1150 since I suck at OU), Urshifu Single Strike is OP and broken as hell. in every tier list since Urshifu was released in Isle of Armor, Urshifu was and still is in A+ - S Tier. It's got great STAB's, great bulk, and so much more that are put more in detail in the other post. But you might say that Buzzwole is a great counter to Urshifu, but do you really want to waste a whole slot just to counter 1 pokemon when you can pick someone who is ok against Urshifu but can also counter more pokemon. But really, Urshifu is Overpowered and stupid to face against. That's why I'm voting to have it Banned To Ubers. Where it belongs, because I think it'll be decent there
 
I will give my thoughts about Urshifu because this needs to be said


Basically Urshifu has no counters outside of Buzzwole(Who has been falling off in the metagame after Zygarde and Kyurem-B got banned)This only leaves us with Clefable,Tapu Fini,Toxapex,Magearna and Mandibuzz as checks.The issue is that Clefable and Fini can be destroyed by Poison Jab which leaves them unable to switch into Urshifu Later in the game,Toxapex can Switch into CC but it takes way to much damage from Wicked Blow and Magearna and Mandibuzz Fall to Close Combat.That is the problem with Urshifu,its checks can handle one move but fall to the other which basically means its risky to switch into Urshifu,Unseen Fist is another thing that pushes Urshifu into the edge since you cannot scout which move it will lock himself into meaning that Protect becomes a liability,this means that you're only gonna be able to scout Urshifu by Switching to one of the aforementioned checks,this is very restricting since Urshifu forces you to play defensively in Order to check it reliably.Lastly Wicked Blow is the reason this thing is busted is a base 120 BP Dark move that ALWAYS Crits,this means you can't go to your Landorus-T to check it since you are basically sending it to his Death,Of course Urshifu is not perfect since it has low Sp.Def,a Defensive typing that leaves much to be desired and it isn't much of a nuisance against Offensive teams(But at least it can circunvent that with Sucker Punch).


All in all Urshifu's huge offensive presence combined with its limited counterplay is the reason i will be Voting Ban


This is gonna be the First Suspect test i will be participating
 
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Hello guys!!!!

Firstly proof-

Proof.JPG


Secondly team-

Team.JPG


I would like to go in-depth about the team first. I am going to put large gap with dots between this and when I start talking about Urshifu, so feel free to skip if you are not interested in the team.

In this build I wanted to try out 3 mons in particular Zapdos G, Kommo O and Obstagoon. This team aims to force chip on Kommo O's checks so that it can clean up late game.
Zapdos actually ended up being the MVP of the team. I had switched up taunt for substitute (which I was running on an earlier version) because I wanted it to completely shut down defog even if it got KOed in return but it ended up being neigh un-wallable for a lot of teams. It actually has a very good matchups against a huge portion of the tier outside of Zapdos K and Tapu Koko. It has particularly strong matchups against Lando T, Ferro, Hydreigon, Urshifu, etc. It happened many times that it completely washed up entire balance teams, examples - here, here and here. It baits in fairies, birds, pex, slowbro etc. whom it can weaken for Kommo O.
Obstagoon was basically there just as a Spectrier check but it ended being a decent mon. Taunt allowed it to shut down healing and defog and it's 3 moves allowed it to play like a budget Urshifu. I am making it sound bad but really he was actually alright, but nothing too spectacular. Here is the obligatory battle. This also baits in fairies, birds, pex and Lando.
Mamoswine with his new found intimidate immunity was a menace to all teams. It's no nonsense Ice shard cut through a lot of Dragons and Grounds most importantly the dangerous Garchomp. Having Ice shard against Flying types not affected by webs was also appreciated. It's dual stab wass extremely strong and teams struggles to switch into it and it had knock off to soften things up. A great addition to the team. Battles- here and here.
Aegislash was an all around great mon. It just covered too much defensively and was a spin blocker. I don't have any replays because Aegis either got knocked out quite early on fulfilling it's defensive role or it's rare minisweeps were bland.
Kommo O was originally supposed to be SD with 120 base power double stabs to always force a kill but Cinderace was a major problem so I had to settle for DD and other moves. The idea here is that it has amazing resistances against rain, sun electric spam, wicked blow etc. and massive bulk so it will always get to set up somewhere along the line and by that time rest of your team should have weakened it's checks. Drain Punch really complimented it's tanky nature and nobody expected Dragon Claw which I found to be surprisingly decent. Although in all the battles I had, Kommo O cleaned in end not more than 4 battles. It either fell short of KOs even after boosts because of lacking power against common mons like Lando T, Slowbro, Toxapex, Magearna, Zapdos, Moltres etc. It even struggled to KO mons like Nidoking, Urshifu without a boost etc. or I required it to check Cind. Boots Cind can't OHKO it with any move and Kommo O can switch into free Pyro Ball and +1 Claw kills. It performed decently in every battle though, using it's key resistances and massive bulk. Honestly it was quite overshadowed by Zapdos G. Whenever it had odds to clean a team, Zapdos probably had higher odds. Still here are 3 battles to show what the team is centered around - here, here and here.

In grand scheme of things the team is highly inconsistent. Webs are notorious for this but this team is even worse than usual webs. Boots Cinderace is a MASSIVE problem and so is Draining Kiss Fini. Mons like Zapdos, Moltres, Torn T can defog on a lot of members. Special mention has to go to Corvi which can 2HKO both the taunter and can defog on other the 4. Weather mons can outspeed even after webs, some scarf mons also do the same. Boots mons besides Ace are also a trouble. In general the team is quite slow without Webs. If webs aren't up the team is on an extreme backfoot. Something like LuchaBoom or generally faster mons like Chomp, Kart, or Sucker Punch Urshifu etc. should always be on webs IMO to help in speed control but I just wanted to try out something different. This team just ended up being those struggle teams that are very stressful to use. Team worked only because of double priority and the individual members are pretty good. I wouldn't recommend this team to anyone but the individual mons themselves are good. I would definitely recommend using that Zapdos G set. The Kommo O and Obstagoon sets are also worth a shot at least.
(Moderators, Please let me know if I shouldn't have talked about the team here. I have seen some people in the past talk about the teams a bit. I have followed the guidelines after reading them and I have sufficiently spaced the two apart so that people can skip over this and directly read the other half if they are not interested. I am new to this so I don't know for sure if this is ok or not. If there is still a problem, I will delete this post.)
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Now with that out of the way, let's talk Urshifu.

Urshifu is one of the premier or arguably even THE premier Wallbreaker/Offensive mon in the tier because, well, it is unwallable. With a Choice Band equipped and the correct move, it is able to 2HKO every single mon available to be used in OU. Let that sink in. Now choice banders are often limited by the move restrictions preventing them from locking into the correct coverage move but Urshifu only require to click it's 120 Base Power, 100% accurate moves against the majority of the meta, firstly. Secondly, it really doesn't even require to make predictions between those 2 moves. Say one you hit Mandi with a CC, it will get 2HKOed by Wicked Blow next time on the switch. Basically, it can kill all mons that don't resist at least one of it's stabs (a.k.a. non fairies and some mons with particular dual types), it can KO them in one neutral and 2 resisted stab moves. It might not sound much but is actually HUGE in the effectiveness of Urshifu. It only requires to make a prediction 1 or 2 times. It forces it's defensive answer to heal right then and there, lest it be 2HKOed later. This further gives the Urshifu player momentum. Now as to the point of mons that do resist it's dual stab-

Clefable, Tapu fini, and other fairies get 2HKOed by Poison Jab cleanly, those fairies that are immune to poison jab are hit neutrally by it's Fighting stab. It's Stab combination is just ridiculously good. Weezing G is just neutral to Jab and has quite a high defense but it is simply just whittled down by attacks while not having reliable recovery, it is quite a mediocre mon and thus seen very rarely. You can see in the replays I shared that Weezing was effectively whittled down even by my that team that is actually very distinctly weak to Weezing. Still even if you are worried (You should not be at all), Iron Head 2HKOes or you can even invest in Future Sight. The same problem still persists. Hit the fairies with Poison Jab (Weezing G with iron head if you have but just whittle it down) and then they get 2HKOed by either of it's stabs next time. ( Weezing G actually only 2HKOed by Wicked Blow after Iron Head).

As to the "perfect Urshifu counter", Buzzwole, well it gets 2HKOed by Aerial Ace. Now it is actually not necessary at all and most don't even run it but my point remains that it can 2HKO Buzzwole itself without any help from it's team. This is the best counter we have and it is still afraid of a potential move. There are some teams that actually employ this tactic to lure Buzzwole and clear the path for it's teammates so it is not exactly unheard of either. Teams will never be filled front to back with Urshifu checks. If they have Buzzwole, it is most probably the only one. Aerial Ace is actually somewhat viable for this reason too. Now, some people pair Urshifu with Futureport to destroy Buzzwole which is actually very common. Lastly, Poison Jab's 30% Poison rate can also ruin Buzzwole if you have nothing else. It is extremely pressured if it get's poisoned and Urshifu actually just blows past it with it's stabs. Also after 1 Aerial Ace, Buzzwole also gets 2HKOed by either stabs.

Lastly, the Mandibuzz + Pex core is famous for taking on Banded Urshifu but in the current meta Mandibuzz is extremely pressured to take on Spectrier as well. And it requires Max Max to survive Specs Hexs while Urshifu also requires near Max defensively. This compromises it's walling ability on both fronts. You can't just rely on just Regen either. Pex takes around 60% from banded Wicked Blow. It is required to be regened back at least twice after each encounter with Urshifu. An aggressive player can prevent Pex from healing. Not to mention Futureport completely bypasses this core and non choiced sets eat this core alive.

All these examples not only show the monstrous power of Urshifu but also shows that it really doesn't require that much prediction it's play. Not to mention it's ability prevents protect scouting which makes it that much more effective.

As it only requires it's 2 stabs + Poison Jab, it can run either Aerial Ace or Sucker Punch in the last. Sucker Punch is by far the most common option. It has the strongest sucker in OU and the second strongest in the game only behind Yveltal, meaning it is extremely strong. Being locked into sucker is not the most ideal scenario and it causes some mind games but it is very reliable at taking down faster threats like Dragapult, Spectrier, Regieleki, Baraskweda etc. from damn near max or even max in some cases. This limits it's offensive counter play a lot.

Till now we talked about it's power and what can it do but it would all go to waste if it is a frail or slow mon and can't get in safely use this power. Fortunately (or unfortunately based on what you prefer) it is not so, it has a decently quick base 97 speed beating out base 95s, notably Lele and Kyurem. It has a massive 100/100 defense which allows it to shrug off at least one even choice boosted Earthquake. It switch into defensive mons like Ferro and Lando T quite safely if need be. It doesn't require to be sent in only via switch moves but they are appreciated. Even banded Glide notorious for even destroying neutral offensive mons barely maxes out at 82% against Urshifu. It resists rocks which help a ton in it switching in on rocks and though 100/60 bulk is lacking but it is still enough to take resisted shadow balls and non stab earth powers or Scorching sands 2-3 times.
This bulk/speed allows it to use it's immense power throughout a match multiple times. Also sucker Punch really compliments this effort too.

Next, I would like to mention some other things that people try to use to check Urshifu. Irons Barbs/ Rough Skin is often used to chip it down. Some people even try to use Kanto bird's abilities to to hax it but in all these cases, you are accepting that your mon dies. Fairies with RH don't die immediately but are less solid answer to Urshifu without leftovers. Endure chomp in particular is a mons that can leave Urshifu at a mere 12% after switching in without even touching Urshifu itself but in most people will switch Urshifu out at that point. Some people try to out offense it but that not reliable because of it's sucker punch and massive bulk. If you even look at my team, it is as good as you are gonna get against Urshifu with offense. It has Zapdos G that naturally outspeed, resists both moves and can switch and procced to OHKO it. Kommo O also survives even a banded CC from full and can Drain Punch. Obstagoon and Aegislash also are good against Wicked Blow and Close Combat resp and can CC it back. But even with all these, many a Urshifu was able to get a kill against me either surviving the full brunt of LO Mamo Earthquake or Sucker Punching Aegis. Zapdos G getting weakened was not ideal because it still took massive damage and liked being at as high amount of HP as possible to fully get going. The fact that an offense filled with naturally good Urshifu checks still can't prevent it from getting KOs sometimes is just a testament to it's power.

Now despite the excellence of Choice Band, Urshifu has a couple more sets. Firstly all out attacker with LO 4 attacks with 4 the one being sucker. It is mostly seen on webs or other offenses where doing as much damage as quickly as possible is required. This allows it to be more flexible with it's moves particularly sucker punch but also Poison Jab. It still 2HKOs fairies but it misses the 2HKO mark out on some very defensive mons like Hippo, Tang etc. Another set that is popular is Bulk Up with either dropping Jab or CC. This sets are also extremely strong with the main draw being boosted sucker punches. These sets murder the regen Mandi core but the repercussions of dropping CC and Jab are felt. But by the time your opponent figures which move you left out, you should have gotten some kills. this set can run either Black Glasses or LO. Aerial Ace or Acrobatics sets are sometimes also ran especially for Buzzwole on heavy physical offense teams.
These sets are basically just a customized Band set allowing Urshifu to exhibit some flexibility in it's otherwise rigidly singular role of spamming strong Wicked Blows and Sucker Punch but to be fair Urshifu is excellent at that role.

Now, to conclude this long ass post, I would like to say that Urshifu is absolutely, irredeemably, unquestionably, without an ounce of doubt, 100
% broken. The first line of Choice Band 2HKOing everything have been enough on it's own but I wrote an entire thesis on what it does and how it does it. We are way past the point that we call it just restrictive on teambuilding because, brothers, the Urshifu counter we want has simply not been made yet. We call these flimsy mons that are cleanly 2HKOed checks. A lot of teams use RH and other such abilities so that Urshifu eventually gets KOed on it's own. Such absolute choking of the meta hasn't been seen this gen. Even the most broken mons like Genesect, Naganadel, Mosa had at least one check good check (Hetran and Volc) but this man quite literally has no counters. I only talked about it's own merits + little mention of Futureport but when paired with other offense partners, it becomes even more crazier. Honestly, I don't even need to say this at this point by how painfully obvious my post is about my vote but I will be voting "BAN".
 

Attachments

Hello! I've scattered my thoughts on how Urshifu is broken around some discussions in the forums recently, but I'm glad to summarize and make more clear why I think Urshifu is busted and I'll be voting for it being banned. I've recently got reqs with this team and I can say that with some attention and some compromises, maybe not Urshifu, but an Urshifu team can beat all of its counters.

1) It warps teambuilding. It could be stated that we've seen in other gens mons that do so as well. Gen7 Gren forced you to play AV Tang, Fini, AV Mage, so on and so fort. The problem with the panda though it's that there's no "so on and so forth". It's just Clef, Buzzwole and Fini, all of which force you to use a certain team composition that often drifts into something bulkier, considering how momentum draining these mon are. In fact, safe offensive counterplay to Urshifu does not exist. Koko is 2hko'd by CB Wicked Blow and dies to Jab. Offensive Dark-types (namely Hydra, your own Urshifu) die to Close Combat on the switch. If Hydra is that lefties ep set is even gets outsped and dies the following turn to CC. Offensive CC resists or immunities (Ghosts, Lando) die to either Wicked blow or a Sucker Punch next turn if you don't scout for Orb.
To be fair though, I think that warping teambuilding it's the weakest argument for its ban. The next one, though, is directly connected to this first point, and needed to be said to make the next point more clear.

2) Urshifu makes really good stuff even better, to the point of being broken. We've established that Urshifu being in the tier makes you use at least one of Clefable , Fini or Buzzwole. If you are using Fini and Clef, sometimes even more than just one mon, for example RH Pex to be safe against orb variants. These dedicated checks though seldom overlap with the other offense powerhouses like Ace, Mage and Spec to the point of making the team inherently weak to these just to have a good match up against Urshifu. If you go with Clef+Mandibuzz, you are asking to lose to every Mage set, forcing you to run something for that as well, let's say Pex, considering how Tran and Ferro lose to it if it hits Focus Blast. Now you have a very effective core, but you also have necessarily a balance team in your hands, just to be fine against the Urshifu+Mage match up. Not to mention that now SD Chomp and Nidoking absolutely eats you alive, and so on. It makes a lot of teams have to compromise to which Urshifu + x mons have a tough match up.

3) Urshifu forces 50/50 which makes a lot of its checks and counters a lot more shakier in practice. Clef and Fini might be fine in general, but when Fini is taking CB or LO Jab on the switch + hazards it is not a good check anymore. Similarly, it's not impossible for Clef to be pressured to the point of having to softboil every time it comes in on Urshifu, meaning that you (the Clef user) will lose momentum, meaning that you have to account for it in teambuilding when you design a team.

4) It's not just strong against passive teams, which he actually oftentimes forces you to drift to, but Orb and Bulk Up destroys both offense and bulky offense considering it's doing 46 to mons like Chomp and 62 min to Ace if it doesn't outplay with its own Sucker Punch to resists the next one, which does a good chunk anyway. While BU might see good just against passive teams, but considering how it's often kept in the back, rarely you will be sure if what you are facing is BU or Band. This makes it so Offense has to often switch out, considering how either Sucker Punch or one of its other STABs forces a KO against the frailer mons you might see on said Offense. This generates a free turn for Urshifu to Bulk Up. It should also be stated how Bulk Up Close Combat Sucker Poison Jab is an absolutely vaid win condition with the appopriate teammates.
It should also be stated that Protective Pads Taunt, despite not being the strongest set, is also not to be underlooked as one of Urshifu's tools. A lot of teams I've seen decide not to beat it directly but with indirect chip, like with RH Hippo, RH Chomp, Moltres or Zapdos; this beats them as well, making them shakier than they already are, considering how the latter two rely on a 30% chance.

5) Urshifu exerts so much pressure that the Urshifu user often knows its check/counter it's coming out. Considering how I've said before that Urshifu is often threatening either a KO or a big chunk of health, more often than not you will go into Urshifu's answer. This is a big piece of information that cannot be understated, since this either goes to a 50/50 on "which STAB will he click" if you decide to risk it, or makes prediction on the Urshifu side easier.

6) Future Sight+Teleport. I won't dwelve so much on the last point considering how much it has been talked about already.

7) Speed tier and bulk. Urshifu sits at a convenient 97 speed tier, which is just the right speed tier to outspeed most of the tier and smack it with its STABs. Its physical bulk is also not to be underestimated, so even when faced with something faster, if at full health it will be likely able to take it, even strong attacks:

252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 252-298 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 212-251 (62.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 175-207 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 148-175 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO this barely 2hkos g
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu in Grassy Terrain: 237-280 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 276-326 (80.9 - 95.6%) -- approx. 2HKO (its a 50% chance to 2HKO after Life Orb recoil, this means that Wicked Blow into CC beats it 50% of the times; while impractical this calc serves me to prove my point of Urshifu's physical bulk being relevant)


I hope that I've made my point clear and concise! Have a nice day/evening/night.
 
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Clefable can enter the field to scout what move urshifu locks into/scout it's set beacuse most of the times urshifu is going to click its stab moves which make clef a good pivot to urshi 252+ Atk Urshifu Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery adamant damage without life orb does that much.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You uh forgot the item. Why would Urshifu with Iron Head/Pjab run anything but Banded or LO? Also never scout with Clef, scout with something else then let Clef take the STAB.
Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon on a critical hit: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery but again, you just need your team not being super passive
Congrats! Your Hippo is now dead weight until you can restore its heath safely since it doesn't have Regen and is even Urshifu switch-in bait. Also:
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu: 81-96 (23.7 - 28.1%) -- 4.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Setup bait!
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon on a critical hit: 176-207 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 644-758 (166.4 - 195.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 250-296 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That will end well. Sure it pairs well with Pex to check it, but if your opponent also has Spectrier... Best hope that Hydreigon can beat Spec from 40%.
This thing with
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like in DLC 1 to punish wicked blows + a dark type like this:
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can really put a brake in urshifu's assault.
Have you seen a Mandibuzz since DLC 1? I haven't.
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Have you guys ever tried this?
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp on a critical hit: 306-361 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and the "switch-in" dies to LO recoil....
Hawlucha can take it's both stabs and really all his moves an hit him in return if hawlucha is at full and you use it with some hp/defense investment which isn't really needed but the point is that it can take a hit from urshifu and strike harder in return.
Small print: Hawlucha may or may not be relegated to offense teams with a terrain user and may or may not be unable to check Urshifu twice in one game without the suboptimal Roost and may or may not need the health to sweep.
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Chople berry melmetal can
Let me stop you right there. If you're having to use Chople Berry Melmetal to stop it once in a game in order to check it, it's broken.
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For this guy, you need a bit more set up. I am not talking about swords dance, I am talking about an evspread I made for taking urshifus jolly wicked blow and kill it in return with superpower in a 1v1 scenario. just like with melmetal.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 104 Def Rillaboom on a critical hit: 288-339 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 104 Def Rillaboom on a critical hit: 288-339 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Pro Theorymon tip: Always calc with Rocks up. Oh and Urshifu is faster and lives Banded Grassy Glide soooo...
I won't bother going any further but yeah if this doesn't reek of bias...
 
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You uh forgot the item. Why would Urshifu with Iron Head/Pjab run anything but Banded or LO? Also never scout with Clef, scout with something else then let Clef take the STAB.
Yes, I did not calc that damage roll with banded , beacuse I wanted to show the damage Calc without banded, If urshi is banded is way more easy to manage beacuse It is locked into a move and therefore you can switch your mon out again.
Congrats! Your Hippo is now dead weight until you can restore its heath safely since it doesn't have Regen and is even Urshifu switch-in bait. Also:
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu: 81-96 (23.7 - 28.1%) -- 4.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Setup bait!
Hippo isn't set up bait beacuse you can use It with whirlwind and slack off. And if urshi has Life orb + sand It takes a lot of chip damage and therefore It is not a huge threat. And if it's banded you can know that and chip It for free and pivot into a resistance.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 644-758 (166.4 - 195.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 250-296 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That will end well. Sure it pairs well with Pex to check it, but if your opponent also has Spectrier... Best hope that Hydreigon can beat Spec from 40%.
Of course I am not stupid and I know that that kills dude. I am just trying to emphazise that wicked blow is urshifus most spamable move and this is a fact.
Have you seen a Mandibuzz since DLC 1? I haven't.
It really isn't my problem if you don't like a specific mon. I have used mandibuzz a lot and it works very well in this meta. For SDers like garchomp, for spectrier, and to absorb urshifu's most prominent attack which is wicked blow. Max defense mandibuzz can even pivot into jolly close combat and not be 2hko'd.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp on a critical hit: 306-361 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and the "switch-in" dies to LO recoil....
As I mentioned above. This is a mon that can survive a hit and in a 1v1 match Up you always win throwing a Draco meteor to urshifu's face. I don't know if you read that.
Small print: Hawlucha may or may not be relegated to offense teams with a terrain user and may or may not be unable to check Urshifu twice in one game without the suboptimal Roost and may or may not need the health to sweep.
My point is that It provides a Safe switch in into urshifu if It is needed in offensive teams, of course if you use a spread of 252 attack 252 speed that might be suboptimal, but I am talking from my experience as an actual player of the metagame and hawlucha can always absorb a hit from urshifu besides aerial ace maybe??? LoL.
Let me stop you right there. If you're having to use Chople Berry Melmetal to stop it once in a game in order to check it, it's broken.
First of all, this is a lure, not a urshifu check by the way, I don't know what you were thinking about when writting this. I am talking of a 1v1 scenario I don't know if you read my post properly.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 104 Def Rillaboom on a critical hit: 288-339 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Pro Theorymon tip: Always calc with Rocks up. Oh and Urshifu is faster and lives Banded Grassy Glide soooo...
I won't bother going any further but yeah if this doesn't reek of bias...
This isn't even a resist but can take a hit from It. I am not considering It to be a check per say. But It can help in a critical scenario, if you don't use defogers or spinners in your teams that's not my problem either, so I won't go any further.

Instead of questioning what I have used and played from my experience of a ladder player, try to play and explore the game yourself to realize how many good options there are out there.

Thanks for reading,

Have a nice day! :blobthumbsup:
 
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Ban

Tapu fini and clefable usage rates at 3000000% b/c they mandatory. And even then SpDef clef basically extinct because it needs PhysDef for shifu, but physdef cleff is pretty bad imo, checks like nothing else well and it a waste of a mon. And sorry, but your pex/mandi core gets fucked up by LO Bulk up. Maybe it can trade but when your two goons can at best trade with the mon they should be checking thats a sign of an unhealty mon. Saying your scarfers can check urshifu if it lacks sucker is a terrible argument (sucker at like 60% usage), especially when you admit they can't switch in. Also your fairies get owned by coverage, forgot to mention that. Good luck healing a 40% physdef clef against offense (which will be HP remaining after LO poison jab), and fini cant heal at all. Literally one good prediction and your "counter" is death fodder. Dont even start with buzzwole; its literally so bad outside of its ability to handle shifu that that thing drops to ZU if shifu gets banned, so the fact that it gets usage at all is a testament to how oppressive stupid shifu is. (Also aerial ace lol, but its bad so don't bother)

The conclusion is ban. The other mon than mandated fairies was banned, so finish the other half of the work and lift the teambuilding strangle. The one real consequence from a ban is that clefable can run SpDef again and may rule the tier, but clefable PTSD is the worse excuse to not ban a clearly broken mon.
 
Hi everyone, I don't usually use to share my opinion on any metagame but I felt like I needed to share my thoughts this time.
First of all I want to thank you for the amount of effort you've put into this post. But many of your points do not support the claim that Urshifu isn't broken. Overall, it sounds like you are thinking about this way too much in terms of 1v1, and not 6v6.

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Cinderace obviously can't switch in but it can force it out if beacuse urshi can be scared of High Jump Kick that is kind of a must these days due to the rise of the omnipresent heatran.
There isn't a shortage of mons that can force Urshifu out. The primary issue is how few switch in.

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Clefable can enter the field to scout what move urshifu locks into/scout it's set beacuse most of the times urshifu is going to click its stab moves which make clef a good pivot to urshi 252+ Atk Urshifu Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery adamant damage without life orb does that much.
Its already been pointed out, but I want to reiterate that this calc does not make sense without an item for Urshifu. If it's running poison jab (as it should...not iron head), it will literally always be CB or LO, in which case clef switches in exactly one time and is forced back out, lest you lose your (likely) only Urshifu STAB switch in.

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Hippo can swallow choice band adamant variants if it has boots to pivot once to scout the set and switch out to a resist.
Similar situation to clef, but even worse because Urshifu doesn't have to think when it sees a Hippo, it just spams STAB move and either takes the kill on Hippo or could switch out on your obvious switch to a resist after.

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Have you guys ever tried this?
252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 302-356 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (302, 305, 309, 313, 316, 320, 324, 328, 331, 335, 337, 341, 344, 348, 352, 356
Why is an Urshifu staying in on a Garchomp in the first place? I wouldn't want mine taking a hit from chomp at all, then take rough skin, and not even be able to kill it in return. This chomp set is vastly inferior to SD scale shot anyway.

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Hawlucha can take it's both stabs and really all his moves an hit him in return if hawlucha is at full and you use it with some hp/defense investment which isn't really needed but the point is that it can take a hit from urshifu and strike harder in return.
Urshifu is not staying in on Hawlucha either. Lucha is another pokemon that could switch in once, I guess, but never again.

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Chople berry melmetal can 1v1 banded or bulk up variants and can hit it with superpower or twave in return and due to it's high defensive stat nothing else is required really.
Fair, you could catch your opponent off guard, but this is a case of sacrificing too much just to answer one pokemon, so I honestly feel like you're just admitting that Urshifu is a big enough issue for you to actually consider this (or the draco chomp). AV, leftovers, or CB give way more mileage than chople.

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Tapu fini only fears Poison Jab variants and it can hold scarf sometimes
Yeah, a lot of things can hold scarf to kill Urshifu. This is probably the worst example, because similar to chomp and lucha, I am literally never staying in on a Fini unless it's low enough that poison jab will KO it, in which case I probably already know it's scarf. Defensively, it's even worse than clef, because it does not have reliable recovery. If it switches into poison jab once it's as good as dead, but honestly, even just clicking STABS will wear it down enough.

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Timid hydreigon with a bulky spread like this 252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon on a critical hit: 176-207 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO can swallow it's wicked blows and respond roosting all the health back without much drawback.

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Magearna can also work as a way so it is forced to use close combat predicting it to come in if you are using a defensive variant of magearna or a scarf variant.
These simply aren't arguments. The issue is the combination of CC and WB, not one by itself. Urshifu forces FAR too many 50-50s.

Some other offensive options that can punish it and annoy it that are worth mentioning are the following:
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(if it lacks sucker punch)
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(if it lacks sucker)
Urshifu literally never lacks sucker. Ever. Never ever.

Overall, I feel like you believe the issue to be something that it isn't. If an Urshifu player is sending out Urshifu into a Pokemon it can threaten, there are far too few mons that could potentially switch into it. Yes, Urshifu can be revenge killed--nearly any Pokemon can. Yes, Urshifu loses 1v1s--it'd be absurd to believe otherwise. The issue is basically just how short the list of mons is that can safely switch into it, and I can easily count them on one hand. No other Pokemon is like that.
 
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Have you guys ever tried this?
252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 302-356 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (302, 305, 309, 313, 316, 320, 324, 328, 331, 335, 337, 341, 344, 348, 352, 356)
I wouldn't want a mon that has that low a chance of killing it, especially when it kills itself in the process. Also, Healing Wish is a thing. Then what?

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This thing with
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like in DLC 1 to punish wicked blows + a dark type like this:
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can really put a brake in urshifu's assault.
O hai there my good friend Knock Off. How are you? Fine, thank you.

(Translation: Knock Off is on any half-decent competitive team because it's probably the best move in the goddamn game.) Also of note, Toxapex hates Future Sight.

252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 264-312 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Enough said.
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Cinderace obviously can't switch in but it can force it out if beacuse urshi can be scared of High Jump Kick that is kind of a must these days due to the rise of the omnipresent heatran.
This was once banned for being broken, and I'm sure it still is broken. Broken checking broken is a big no-no.
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This thing can be a good example of a pivot to urshi, with access to sleep powder it causes offensive pressure for the opponent as well.
Two words: Knock Off.

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Hippo can swallow choice band adamant variants if it has boots to pivot once to scout the set and switch out to a resist. 252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon on a critical hit: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery but again, you just need your team not being super passive.
See above.
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Clefable can enter the field to scout what move urshifu locks into/scout it's set beacuse most of the times urshifu is going to click its stab moves which make clef a good pivot to urshi 252+ Atk Urshifu Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery adamant damage without life orb does that much.
See above, because we love Knock Off.
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Magearna can also work as a way so it is forced to use close combat predicting it to come in if you are using a defensive variant of magearna or a scarf variant.
If I had an Urshifu out vs an opponent's Magearna, I'd just, you know, switch out. Also, Magearna was once banned, and I'm not sure it's not broken, which brings me back to the part where broken checking broken is not good. Instead, we ban something that's broken, and if something else is broken because of that, so be it - that goes too.
 
Urshifu

- Base 130 Attack
- Ignores Intimidate
- Ignores screens
- STAB on one of the strongest priority moves in existence to patch up <100 Speed
- Amazing movepool covers all its counters (Aerial Ace, Poison Jab, Iron Head)
- Bulk Up for free +1 on the poor souls mispredicting a Banded set
- It even gets the incredibly rare STAB Drain Punch (because why not)
- Normally 4MSS would come into play, but since Urshifu really only needs 1 move to wreck, it can run everything it needs (Wicked Blow, Fighting attack, Poison Jab, Bulk Up/Sucker Punch)
- Buzzwole? You mean that lower-tier mon that has even less of a niche in OU now that Kyurem-B is gone?
- Urshifu is in? Time to guess. I know! I'll switch in my MAX Defense Mandibuzz/Hippowdon: 252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon on a critical hit: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO (Jolly still 2HKOs...*dabs*)
- Don't even get me started on Future Sight + Teleport >>> Urshifu. I've never seen plays this autopilot since Full Baton Pass was a thing. In fact, that sums up Urshifu as a whole. Auto-pilot. Think BW Choice Banded Terrakion, but even more oppressive (because even Intimidate doesn't work).
- You were gonna start running Protect on your mons to scout the Banded set? Unseen Fist, gg ez *dabs*

What even is this mon, lol
 
To be honest i'd be glad if this thing could be banned , i do not like playing bulky pokemons such as urshifu's counters.
So im getting smashed everytime by urshifu except if im playing weavile pickpocket/focus sash.
But i think , banning him is a bit too far , mons such as kartana and dracozolt are bit stronger imo
 
It's not just about how strong something is, but how much counter play there is. Urshifu does like 40%+ even to resists so there are extremely limited switchins available.
 

MSnt

MEVTR
is a Tiering Contributor
As I did for Pheromosa I'll try to give my thoughts on the tier and especially over Urshifu from what I've seen.

Firstly, nobody can deny that Urshifu is centralizing the meta a lot. Every offense/balanced teams have to play one/two solid checks, some people are even playing things like buzzwole (which is a very bad pokemon imo) to be able to check and wall Urshifu. The variety of sets + his double type + his stats makes him an absolute monster playable in a lot playstyles. Another big point that makes him really good is the ability Unseen Fist, it makes you unable to check what move he is locked on (in the case that he is banded) or to heal yourself in a certain way. These are all the things that push to vote ban.

But on the other side, there are points that makes me want to keep it. If we have to compare him with pheromosa, his speed tier is definitely worse than pheromosa, is being outspeeded by a lot of pokemon that can OHKO or hard crippling him (Garchomp, Koko, Kartana, etc.) + he doesn't have a so good bulk.
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu: 212-251 (62.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (and with a good roll you are able to eat a wicked blow)
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu: 378-446 (110.8 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
These are some examples.

But, in my opinion this point is not enough to not ban him, the point that really makes me want to keep it is the presence of Spectrier, which is way more threatening that Urshifu due to his speed tier mainly. Urshifu is not the best answer to Spectrier but he is still a way to handle it with sucker punch for example. I don't think banning Urshifu first is the solution (except if Spectrier is suspected soon after this one).

That's why at this exact moment, I don't know if we have to ban urshifu or not.
 
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