Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Ain't No Rest For The Wicked

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But on the other side, there are points that makes me want to keep it. If we have to compare him with pheromosa, his speed tier is definitely worse than pheromosa, is being outspeeded by a lot of pokemon that can OHKO or hard crippling him (Garchomp, Koko, Kartana, etc.) + he doesn't have a so good bulk.
Offensively checking Urshifu is not the issue. No competent player is going to keep their Urshifu in on anything that they think could possibly kill it.

And I don't know where you're coming from with thinking that Urshifu's bulk is bad. Yeah, its special bulk isn't great (even though it has 100 HP, 63 Special Defense is pretty stinky), but 100/100 physical bulk is incredible for an offensive Pokemon.

But, in my opinion this point is not enough to not ban him, the point that really makes me want to keep it is the presence of Spectrier, which is way more threatening that Urshifu due to his speed tier mainly. Urshifu is not the best answer to Spectrier but he is still a way to handle it with sucker punch for example. I don't think banning Urshifu first is the solution (except if Spectrier is suspected soon after this one).
NO.
 
Others have done a great job illustrating the bears unhealthiness in the metagame, but I wanted to call out specifically how it forces many mons to run suboptimal or limiting sets in the meta.
:rocky-helmet:
The plethora of mons using Rocky Helmet right now is mainly caused by Urshifu. For many of these, they'd much prefer to run other items, or at least have the ability to (Leftovers for Clef, Black Sludge or Shed Shell for Pex, the occasional Helmet Fini needs its Leftovers or Scarf to have maximum effectiveness, etc). Helmet is not solely run for Urshifu by its standard users, as the main other mon to run it for is Cinderace, with it being helpful against threats like Rillaboom and Kartana as well, but it is forced on a lot of teams as one of the only ways to consistently pressure the bear.
:Clefable::tapu-fini::buzzwole:
These are the big three checks, Buzz has been discussed a lot of how it limits teambuilding and kills momentum so I won't harp on that. Poison Jab forces a lot of 50/50s against the fairies that are heavily advantaged to the Urshifu user. In terms of set limiting, Clef is unable to explore Spdef sets as it is forced to run max max physdef (Pex also falls into this).
:tapu-koko::hawlucha::weezing-galar:
These are some experimental checks that I've seen put forth by people trying to think outside the box. I've tried using Koko with a more defensive spread that allows it to outspeed Chomp with the rest in Physdef. It does well at taking hits as long as you don't eat a Poison Jab, but you are always forced to Roost on the switch in. Defensive Lucha is in a similar place without being weak to Poison Jab, but it does not check a single other Pokemon in the tier. Weezing-Galar suffers from a lack of recovery, and it needs to run Helmet to actually pressure Urshifu, exacerbating its recovery issues. Lucha and Koko both lose effectiveness in every other facet to sort of check Urshifu.
:toxapex::mandibuzz:
Many teams seek to handle Choice Band variants by using this structure which takes up two slots in the teambuilder, but Bulk Up variants beat this core anyways. Urshifu overcomes creative two mon checks like these and forces a third check for reliable teams if they were to use this structure, which is usually not worth it and teams fall back to Fairy+Poison resist.
:urshifu:
Urshifu forces many mons to run suboptimal sets solely to check it, and warps the metagame negatively around it in similar ways to broken mons of the past. It needs to be BANNED from SS OU.
 

Ophion

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As I did for Pheromosa I'll try to give my thoughts on the tier and especially over Urshifu from what I've seen.

Firstly, nobody can deny that Urshifu is centralizing the meta a lot. Every offense/balanced teams have to play one/two solid checks, some people are even playing things like buzzwole (which is a very bad pokemon imo) to be able to check and wall Urshifu. The variety of sets + his double type + his stats makes him an absolute monster playable in a lot playstyles. Another big point that makes him really good is the ability Unseen Fist, it makes you unable to check what move he is locked on (in the case that he is banded) or to heal yourself in a certain way. These are all the things that push to vote ban.

But on the other side, there are points that makes me want to keep it. If we have to compare him with pheromosa, his speed tier is definitely worse than pheromosa, is being outspeeded by a lot of pokemon that can OHKO or hard crippling him (Garchomp, Koko, Kartana, etc.) + he doesn't have a so good bulk.
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu: 212-251 (62.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (and with a good roll you are able to eat a wicked blow)
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu: 378-446 (110.8 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
These are some examples.

But, in my opinion this point is not enough to not ban him, the point that really makes me want to keep it is the presence of Spectrier, which is way more threatening that Urshifu due to his speed tier mainly. Urshifu is not the best answer to Spectrier but he is still a way to handle it with sucker punch for example. I don't think banning Urshifu first is the solution (except if Spectrier is suspected soon after this one).

That's why at this exact moment, I don't know if we have to ban urshifu or not.
If Spectier is broken, we’ll ban Spectier. We should never tier with a broken checks broken philosophy, which is more or less what you’re advocating for by giving a reason to not ban being it checks another (in your opinion) broken Pokemon.

With that out of the way, I’d like to give my personal thoughts from what I’ve seen on Urshifu after talking to multiple people about it and playing a couple games. Before pretty recently, I thought Urshifu wasn’t that broken in DLC 2, since I thought the offensive couterplay mentioned by posts before mine (including the one I’m quoting) would be enough to fend it off in tadem with stuff like Clefable + other resist cores on bulky offense. However, as this meta has begun to grow a bit more, I think it’s pretty clear this isn’t the case. Urshifus before recently were more often than not banded variants, which could be scouted with Clefable + regen Pokemon and other similar types of cores decently. While this was kind of shaky to begin with, due to Urshifu being able to snipe Clefable with the coverage move and more or less make you really Wicked Blow or CC weak depending on team structure, it could technically be manuvered around. However, with the uptick in sets like Black Glasses and LO, this ability to at least play around it is out the window. Bulky teams are actively suffocated by this mon since they have so few options for the variety of sets Urshifu can run. This small variety in sets and potentially moves (Bulk Up for really fat teams or Sucker to limit offensive counterplay) lets Urshifu get around its already pretty limited counterplay easily without sacrificing much, since these small changes don’t cost the user much while it can change the world for the person against it. In regards to the defensive counterplay more specifically, Softboiled Clefable (Protect gets ruined by the ability, which takes away scouting from the equation) and especially Tapu Fini aren’t particularly ironclad answers due to the previously mentioned coverage, but besides them, you can also argue Buzzwole I guess. Buzzwole sucks though, since the rest of the metagame isn’t kind to it, and Future Sight makes its potential as counterplay reliant on team matchup. Besides these, technically Hurricane Zapdos can take 1 Wicked Blow and click Hurricane or pray for Static, but this was pretty much exclusively made for Urshifu and forces your Zapdos to drop much better options and a ton of bulk. Besides these, there isn’t much better in terms of consistent defensive pivots. You can argue Toxapex + Mandibuzz can work, but that really only applies to banded sets, and they crumple to Bulk Up or even just plain Life Orb. It doesn’t help Future Sight is also really good alongside Urshifu; and means even if you’re banded or whatever, you can easily apply a ton of pressure on the opponent whether they have the previously mentioned cores or not. What I’ve seen about the warping of teambuilding is true but kind of misdirected I think, because the way Urshifu warps teambuilding is because the the pool of counterplay is so shallow that many teams are chokeheld into running very specific types of counterplay (oftentimes 2 or more of the very small pool together), not that running a Dark and Fighting resist is too hard.

For the offensive counterplay, yes; Urshifu isn’t exactly blazing fast and isn’t particularly bulky (especially on the special side), but the issue is these Pokemon can’t get in on it safely, or at least in a reliable way, since Urshifu's STAB combo and the moves it uses with this STAB combo being really damn strong. Also, its physical defense isn’t even bad; an offensive Pokemon of its caliber being able to take one hit from stuff like CB Rillaboom or whatever can be game changing. One thing I haven’t seen brought up that I think could be mentioned is Urshifu is threatening to all the Teleport users, so they can’t exactly Teleport to get the offensive check in without major punishment (they can as Urshifu comes in, but hard Urshifu on the Teleporters is usually not the best idea). This is key to mention since Teleport has become the most common form of pivoting move in this gen. Even if the offensive check can properly get in, they need to be mindful of not getting to low on health or they’ll get picked off by Sucker Punch (all the Sucker Punch resists on offense either blow up to CC or Pjab, both of which Urshifu runs very commonly. Also, chipping the Sucker Punch resists into range of it with hazards and team support isn’t usually that hard). Team support makes the task of offensively checking and killing Urshifu much harder than Urshifu killing you in most cases, giving the Urshifu user an advantage in most scenarios.

Ultimately, I feel Urshifu should be banned, and from what I’ve heard from people who have gotten reqs already, it seems many feel the same way.
 
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Have you seen a Mandibuzz since DLC 1? I haven't.
I have a real issue with this sentiment. Just because something isn’t “in the meta” doesn’t mean suggesting it to check something is invalid.

Now if you were to make the argument that forcing someone to run a Pokémon solely for the task of checking another Pokémon is a problem, I would absolutely agree with you. But writing off Mandibuzz simply for “not being on most teams” is extremely close minded to me. If I were to suggest using Unaware Quagsire to help deal with boosting sweepers, that’s a valid suggestion, albeit a bit unconventional.

My point is, I don’t think the “I haven’t seen x Pokémon, therefore this suggestion is invalid” is a good argument, it’s a valid suggestion, and any good player should be willing to try off meta Pokémon.
 
First of all I want to thank you for the amount of effort you've put into this post. But many of your points do not support the claim that Urshifu isn't broken. Overall, it sounds like you are thinking about this way too much in terms of 1v1, and not 6v6.



There isn't a shortage of mons that can force Urshifu out. The primary issue is how few switch in.



Its already been pointed out, but I want to reiterate that this calc does not make sense without an item for Urshifu. If it's running poison jab (as it should...not iron head), it will literally always be CB or LO, in which case clef switches in exactly one time and is forced back out, lest you lose your (likely) only Urshifu STAB switch in.



Similar situation to clef, but even worse because Urshifu doesn't have to think when it sees a Hippo, it just spams STAB move and either takes the kill on Hippo or could switch out on your obvious switch to a resist after.



Why is an Urshifu staying in on a Garchomp in the first place? I wouldn't want mine taking a hit from chomp at all, then take rough skin, and not even be able to kill it in return. This chomp set is vastly inferior to SD scale shot anyway.



Urshifu is not staying in on Hawlucha either. Lucha is another pokemon that could switch in once, I guess, but never again.



Fair, you could catch your opponent off guard, but this is a case of sacrificing too much just to answer one pokemon, so I honestly feel like you're just admitting that Urshifu is a big enough issue for you to actually consider this (or the draco chomp). AV, leftovers, or CB give way more mileage than chople.



Yeah, a lot of things can hold scarf to kill Urshifu. This is probably the worst example, because similar to chomp and lucha, I am literally never staying in on a Fini unless it's low enough that poison jab will KO it, in which case I probably already know it's scarf. Defensively, it's even worse than clef, because it does not have reliable recovery. If it switches into poison jab once it's as good as dead, but honestly, even just clicking STABS will wear it down enough.



These simply aren't arguments. The issue is the combination of CC and WB, not one by itself. Urshifu forces FAR too many 50-50s.



Urshifu literally never lacks sucker. Ever. Never ever.

Overall, I feel like you believe the issue to be something that it isn't. If an Urshifu player is sending out Urshifu into a Pokemon it can threaten, there are far too few mons that could potentially switch into it. Yes, Urshifu can be revenge killed--nearly any Pokemon can. Yes, Urshifu loses 1v1s--it'd be absurd to believe otherwise. The issue is basically just how short the list of mons is that can safely switch into it, and I can easily count them on one hand. No other Pokemon is like that.
Buzzwole, clefable, mandibuzz, toxapex, tangrowth, hawlucha and chople melmetal are some examples of very solid mons that can take hits from urshifu switching into it to scout urshifu's variant not having into account Dark types/Ghost types and if you play super passive. I pointed that in some match ups you need to play more proactively if you lack any of these mons. But it isn't really needed.
 

R8

formerly R8bbit Konijn Lapin
is a Tiering Contributor
Buzzwole, clefable, mandibuzz, toxapex, tangrowth, hawlucha and chople melmetal are some examples of very solid mons that can take hits from urshifu switching into it to scout urshifu's variant not having into account Dark types/Ghost types and if you play super passive. I pointed that in some match ups you need to play more proactively if you lack any of these mons. But it isn't really needed.
Imo that's missing the whole point of why Urshifu is broken. Urshifu job isn't to clean your team or anything: it's a wallbreaker, and most teams using urshifu are using it to pressure and weaken most mons you mentionned, to help the rest of its team later in the game. By using those mons (who most takes heavy damages from coverage or one of his stab moves) to scout on what move urshifu locks itself, you're just playing Urshifu's own game.

Even Buzzwole, which is ou largely thanks to Urshifu, is super easy to exploit: any good shifu team should have something that can exploit Buzzwole being on the field (Since Urshifu can bring them through u turn), like Magearna, Tornadus T, or Tapu Lele.
While this is true with every pokemon running u-turn, this is a very problematic aspect with Urshifu, since it has a very limited pool of guaranteed switch ins (Buzzwole and Hawlucha are the only ones i can think of tbf), it is really easy to build around Urshifu to exploit the fact that the meta doesn't have much defensive answers against it.

That's why, even in a metagame where Clefable and Toxapex are respectively top1 and top2 in high ladder usages, and where people use Buzzwole to hard counter it (Here are the usages), urshifu is still arguably one of the best wallbreakers of the tier.
 
Imo that's missing the whole point of why Urshifu is broken. Urshifu job isn't to clean your team or anything: it's a wallbreaker, and most teams using urshifu are using it to pressure and weaken most mons you mentionned, to help the rest of its team later in the game. By using those mons (who most takes heavy damages from coverage or one of his stab moves) to scout on what move urshifu locks itself, you're just playing Urshifu's own game.

Even Buzzwole, which is ou largely thanks to Urshifu, is super easy to exploit: any good shifu team should have something that can exploit Buzzwole being on the field (Since Urshifu can bring them through u turn), like Magearna, Tornadus T, or Tapu Lele.
While this is true with every pokemon running u-turn, this is a very problematic aspect with Urshifu, since it has a very limited pool of guaranteed switch ins (Buzzwole and Hawlucha are the only ones i can think of tbf), it is really easy to build around Urshifu to exploit the fact that the meta doesn't have much defensive answers against it.

That's why, even in a metagame where Clefable and Toxapex are respectively top1 and top2 in high ladder usages, and where people use Buzzwole to hard counter it (Here are the usages), urshifu is still arguably one of the best wallbreakers of the tier.
Hey I just said some examples, every team that doesn't have urshifu must have something to deal with opposing future sight beacuse it is a strong attack in this gen and the majority of mons that learn this attack for example slowbro aren't very good at for example 1v1 spdef heatran with magma and taunt or draco meteor chomp and slowbro is very easy to take advantage of with for example things that can trap like the aforementioned heatran or Whirlpool Fini or dealing with things like banded bulu. Teams aren't really prepared for this (banded bulu or another strong attacker that can abuse this mechanich) from my perspective which can punish the mechanics of future sight or any other strong attacker that can punish future sight pokemons. There is a wide variety of mons that doesn't have that much usage just beacuse they aren't in the OU tier that can punish this core (throwing future sight + teleport into urshifu ir hard switch into it) without many difficulties.
It's not about playing urshifu's game to not to defeat you. Beacuse with that logic I can say that you must have a reliable check to screens + hawlucha or Life orb shift gear magearna or banded melmetal which also does heavy damage and I could give the same arguments you have just described, it is pretty much the same. It's more about building propper teams that can handle the mayority of the type chart rather than complaining about the fact you have just described about the objective of the urshifu user to make a hole in your team to defeat you with something else later on, with that argument I could also say that hawlucha is broken if the opponent doesn't have a unaware pokemon beacuse I can make a hole on the opposing team to defeat my opponent later on with something else that needs the unaware pokemon to be gone, pretty much.
 
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ausma

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Hey everyone, I hope you've had a wonderful holiday. I thought I'd stop by and give my own thoughts on Urshifu, especially given I've had my eye on it for a while.

:ss/urshifu:

I've stated quite a bit regarding Urshifu already regarding its overall impact on the metagame, and there's not really too much to be said about it that hasn't been said already. We already are very familiar with Urshifu at its core as, in my opinion, the tier's strongest wallbreaker. There are several very noteworthy reasons for this, ranging from the brutal Wicked Blow being the tier's most spammable move to its great offensive adaptability with Sucker Punch, U-turn, and Poison Jab all on standby to remedy faster or more difficult defensive matchups respectively. I'm not here to repeat what has already been stated more elegantly by other posters in this thread; however, I would like to explore a couple concepts in depth that I think have really pushed Urshifu into the realm of being an unhealthy wallbreaker, regardless of its imperfect matchups.

Future Sight

Future Sight is a move that has seen a major uptick in DLC2 thanks to gaining an incredible facilitator in the form of Teleport Regenerator Slowbro, enabling it to not only be used a lot more readily, but also able to be safely abused thanks to Teleport providing abusers with safe switch-ins. In my eyes, I feel that Urshifu's wallbreaking ability has been pushed to an incredibly unhealthy extent as a result of this strategy.

Dark-type STAB + Future Sight covers every single feasible matchup in the tier barring Dark-types, which Choice Band-boosted Close Combat covers with near perfection. The offensive core of PDF is acknowledged for a good reason, and Urshifu slots into this perfectly with Dark- and Fighting-type STABs to round out Slowbro's STAB Future Sight. For this reason, Choice Band Urshifu is nearly guaranteed a Pokemon when a Future Sight is prepped. This even includes against Tapu Fini and Clefable, its best Fairy-type answers which should, in theory, be able to take on the combination due to yielding a neutrality to Future Sight and a resistance both of Urshifu's STABs. With a Choice Band boost, both drop to STAB --> Future Sight --> STAB from full HP, and this is further exacerbated with how much pressure is naturally put on Fini and Clefable to wall a good chunk of the tier as is, alongside hazard support. For this reason, Urshifu is bar none the best Future Sight abuser in the tier, and abuses it to a degree that no other abuser is capable of doing thanks to its perfectly synergistic STAB options obliterating every potential check to its base form. Considering how Slowbro can take advantage of a lot of passive Pokemon to get off its Future Sight with its great bulk and extreme ease to slot on teams, this is an extremely huge problem, and in my eyes, invalidates normally feasible counter-play to its Choice Band variant. This is even worse considering that Choice Band Urshifu is a very powerful Pokemon on its own, and although I think its CB set does have counterplay, Future Sight wholly invalidates this, and makes playing against it an extremely tall order.

Matchup Adaptability

This is a point I see seldom brought up, and although I understand and agree Wicked Blow's spammable nature to be a giant reason as to its brokenness, I find its ability to insurmountably strengthen offensive cores with its mere presence alongside the ability to adapt to matchups extremely problematic. There are two main ways it can adapt to matchups that I would like to explore:

1: U-turn

This seems to be an unpopular opinion as of recent, but U-turn is still an incredibly powerful move that should never be underestimated. I believe on Urshifu it is especially strong, since it is so capable of forcing switches into Pokemon with exploitable weaknesses. Among these are Buzzwole, Clefable, and Tapu Fini, which are the most common answers to Urshifu. U-turn wholly invalidates these switch-ins, and allows the Urshifu user to get in their Slowbro to prepare a Future Sight, or provide a wallbreaking opportunity for something such as Nidoking (which forms an incredibly difficult-to-play-against core with Urshifu). Although U-turn isn't necessarily needed for it to synergize with offense, I find that its ability to safely let in wallbreakers via forced switches to be a pretty big problem, namely because it can pair with any offensive Pokemon and nearly guarantee destructive progress.

2: Toolkit

Although Buzzwole doesn't care much about its coverage, Clefable and Tapu Fini are directly threatened by Urshifu's access to Poison Jab, which has made a Life Orb AoA set a very popular, effective option for teams in need of additional firepower that don't want to lose momentum on a Choice lock. Wicked Blow --> Poison Jab assuredly KOs both Clefable and Tapu Fini, which in theory should be able to take Urshifu on, but simply cannot do so safely without scouting for its coverage. Faster matchups can't risk a Life Orb-boosted Sucker Punch, which can safely knock out a majority of faster threats in the tier as well; Sucker Punch even allows for it to act as a pretty great revenge killer as well, giving it even more adaptability. Unseen Fist is surprisingly obnoxious, too. Being able to completely bypass a normally sound way to scout such offensive Pokemon as Urshifu does not click in any healthy way to me, and only further breaks its LO/Band sets.

While matchup adaptability may not be inherently problematic, as an offensive Pokemon, it's already quite a bit that Wicked Blow exists and is able to invalidate potential counterplay in the form of Intimidate, revenge killing, and Screens support. However, its ability to bypass potential counterplay or run U-turn to get away from the few matchups it should lose in theory is excruciatingly problematic. It on its own may be able to be run down, but its ability to adapt to potentially sour matchups and synergize with other effective wallbreakers makes playing against it exceedingly difficult, and often times forces the opponent to go on the defensive and use Rocky Helmet recoil/hazards/status to wear it down safely. It should go without saying that this is not healthy, and is the sign of a wallbreaker that is too good at its job.

--

Ultimately, I do not think Urshifu has any place in the tier, and as fun as it may be, it contributes nothing to the tier other than a hard hitter that forces specific means of counterplay in the builder that it can readily adapt around anyway. I genuinely do not see any feasible argument to keep it in the tier, and if I have time for reqs, I will undoubtedly be voting to ban it.
 
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Yes, I did not calc that damage roll with banded , beacuse I wanted to show the damage Calc without banded, If urshi is banded is way more easy to manage beacuse It is locked into a move and therefore you can switch your mon out again.
Yes it's easier to manage when it 2HKOs the entire game. The whole issue with Urshifu is it takes two mons to answer on any team without UB Buzz, one to make sure it isn't clicking the move that beats your "answer" and one actual "answer". Oh and the "answer" has to be constantly kept at high health or it drops to two Wicked Blows anyway, which makes it passive bait for anything else.
Hippo isn't set up bait beacuse you can use It with whirlwind and slack off. And if urshi has Life orb + sand It takes a lot of chip damage and therefore It is not a huge threat. And if it's banded you can know that and chip It for free and pivot into a resistance.
It's hardly "free" chip when your scout needs a free turn to recover at some point to do it again. EG: Urshifu hits Hippo with Banded Wicked Blow, Hippo switches into the Dark resist (which takes 30-40%), Urshifu switches into Slowbro as your Dark resist heals up, then as you switch into something to hit Slowbro it Teleports back in Urshifu and Hippo can no longer answer it. Best hope you get that next 50/50 right. Teleport, especially when combined with Future Sight, makes momentum super-easy to shift back to the Shifu player, and Shifu itself even has U-turn to keep momentum up if it can't break your core at this exact moment. Urshifu is by far the best abuser of momentum in the metagame.
It really isn't my problem if you don't like a specific mon. I have used mandibuzz a lot and it works very well in this meta. For SDers like garchomp, for spectrier, and to absorb urshifu's most prominent attack which is wicked blow. Max defense mandibuzz can even pivot into jolly close combat and not be 2hko'd.
Max Phys Def Mandibuzz is a bad Defogger in the current metagame, and is a terrible Spectrier answer as it is Rocks weak and can't reliably answer it if burned and/or Knocked. Plus it auto-loses to Sub Disable if it doesn't carry 2 Dark attacks, which makes it a momentum drain.
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 180-212 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
+2 252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 148-174 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk burned Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Spectrier: 79-94 (23.1 - 27.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk burned Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Spectrier: 111-132 (32.5 - 38.7%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
Hence Mandibuzz cannot carry full Phys Def (it also needs speed creep too if trying to be a Defogger) and hence:
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 220-261 (52 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz on a critical hit: 111-131 (26.2 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (so Rocks+Wicked Blow does >50%).
As I mentioned above. This is a mon that can survive a hit and in a 1v1 match Up you always win throwing a Draco meteor to urshifu's face. I don't know if you read that.
Newsflash! Offense Revenge Killer Beats Breaker If Given A Free Switch! (assuming you're not chipped and it's not Sucker....)
y point is that It provides a Safe switch in into urshifu if It is needed in offensive teams, of course if you use a spread of 252 attack 252 speed that might be suboptimal, but I am talking from my experience as an actual player of the metagame and hawlucha can always absorb a hit from urshifu besides aerial ace maybe??? LoL.
Lucha never runs full speed because it lives in its own speed tier. You optionally run enough to outrun certain Weather mons post-Unburden but that's not the point. Yes, Hawlucha can live ONE hit. Once. Per game. And then it has to attack rather than SD to not die to the Urshifu and bang goes the Lucha's sweep. Considering Lucha is meant to be a win condition, this is far from ideal. Yes, it answers it once. But never twice, as Wicked Blow ignores the Seed boost. So the Shifu player is free to decide whether stopping Lucha is more important than saving the Urshifu depending on what other 10 mons are in the back of both teams. For instance, if the Shifu player has a healthy Lucha answer in the back, they can just save the Shifu for later. Or if the opponent has a strong Shifu matchup it can just be traded for the Lucha.
First of all, this is a lure, not a urshifu check by the way, I don't know what you were thinking about when writting this. I am talking of a 1v1 scenario I don't know if you read my post properly.
Newsflash! Offense Revenge Killer Beats Breaker If Given A Free Switch! (assuming you're not chipped and it's not Sucker....) Oh wait this isn't even a proper revenge killer because it is useless at doing anything but killing Shifu on a free switch.
This isn't even a resist but can take a hit from It. I am not considering It to be a check per say. But It can help in a critical scenario, if you don't use defogers or spinners in your teams that's not my problem either, so I won't go any further.
Newsflash! Defensively Invested Mon takes 1 Single Hit From Breaker If It Has Not Switched Into Rocks Once In An Entire Game And Kills With Priority If Breaker Has Switched Into Rocks 5 Times!
Also:
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 248-294 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
So yeah uh trying to call this an "answer" is a joke because Rillaboom can't even revenge kill it under anything but totally ideal circumstances while invested specifically for that job.
Instead of questioning what I have used and played from my experience of a ladder player, try to play and explore the game yourself to realize how many good options there are out there.
Instead of quoting bad techs that don't actually solve the problem with Urshifu, think about why it's actually resricting. It's not restricting because of a lack of mons that can take one hit per game and force it out. It's not restricting because of a lack of mons that can lure/revenge kill it in a totally ideal scenario. It's restricting because of a total lack of long-term answers outside a small and limited set of cores or running Buzzwole, and all of those cores are easily exploitable. And top players feel the same way as I do, hence this suspect.
I have a real issue with this sentiment. Just because something isn’t “in the meta” doesn’t mean suggesting it to check something is invalid.

Now if you were to make the argument that forcing someone to run a Pokémon solely for the task of checking another Pokémon is a problem, I would absolutely agree with you. But writing off Mandibuzz simply for “not being on most teams” is extremely close minded to me. If I were to suggest using Unaware Quagsire to help deal with boosting sweepers, that’s a valid suggestion, albeit a bit unconventional.

My point is, I don’t think the “I haven’t seen x Pokémon, therefore this suggestion is invalid” is a good argument, it’s a valid suggestion, and any good player should be willing to try off meta Pokémon
I totally agree. Reuniclus is one of the single most terrifying mons to face in the entire game (unless you have Urshifu because Wicked Blow is fair and balanced...), yet it will never make OU usage because of its limitation on what teams it can be used on. Unaware Pokemon are found on every stall team, and each have their own niche over the others, yet never make OU usage. G-Moltres is emerging as the saviour of Screens offense, and it will probably not return to OU.

Mandibuzz is not an "off-meta mon". It is a well-established and very regularly used Pokemon in Gen 8 OU whose strengths and weaknesses are well known. And at the moment, those weaknesses in my opinion far outweigh the strengths. As I mentioned above, it is vulnerable to Knock Off, and is a sort of "mid-ground" between a Spectrier and an Urshifu answer where it can sort of do both but not really. And if can't cover one of them, that necessitates a second mon to answer the other, and also risks some weakness stacking with a second Dark type (mitagated slightly by its Flying type). It's a pretty tricky mon to build with atm, and while it does continue to see usage, it's a shadow of its former self, especially since it struggles greatly as a Defogger. Defensive Hydreigon is a better choice for that role.
 

R8

formerly R8bbit Konijn Lapin
is a Tiering Contributor
Hey I just said some examples, every team that doesn't have urshifu must have something to deal with opposing future sight beacuse it is a strong attack in this gen and the majority of mons that learn this attack for example slowbro aren't very good at for example 1v1 spdef heatran with magma and taunt or draco meteor chomp and slowbro is very easy to take advantage of with for example things that can trap like the aforementioned heatran or Whirlpool Fini or dealing with things like banded bulu. Teams aren't really prepared for this (banded bulu or another strong attacker that can abuse this mechanich) from my perspective which can punish the mechanics of future sight or any other strong attacker that can punish future sight pokemons. There is a wide variety of mons that doesn't have that much usage just beacuse they aren't in the OU tier that can punish this core (throwing future sight + teleport into urshifu ir hard switch into it) without many difficulties.
It's not about playing urshifu's game to not to defeat you. Beacuse with that logic I can say that you must have a reliable check to screens + hawlucha or Life orb shift gear magearna or banded melmetal which also does heavy damage and I could give the same arguments you have just described, it is pretty much the same. It's more about building propper teams that can handle the mayority of the type chart rather than complaining about the fact you have just described about the objective of the urshifu user to make a hole in your team to defeat you with something else later on, with that argument I could also say that hawlucha is broken if the opponent doesn't have a unaware pokemon beacuse I can make a hole on the opposing team to defeat my opponent later on with something else that needs the unaware pokemon to be gone, pretty much.
Tbf i don't understand why you brought about Future Sight. I avoided to use the Future sight argument on purpose because i think this isn't the element that make Urshifu broken. What makes Urshifu broken is, imo, the fact that there is very limited long-term defensive answers to it. FuturePort can be considered like problem on its own, since it can be used with any breaker, and thus is a bad ban-Urshifu argument.

Urshifu has way less reliable defensive counterplay than banded melmetal or hawlucha (Won't talk about Magearna since this mon might be broken too). Banded melmetal has an unique, way less spammable, stab, and is prediction reliant. Also, being slower than Zapdos and corv, two common defensive staples, prevent him from scoring a 2HKO on team with his supereffective coverage, since roost remove the flying type's weaknesses.

Hawlucha also can struggle versus the two mentionned birds, and defensive archetypes in general (especially stall, since it can't do anything vs the unaware trio), and is far from being a splashable mon.

Urshifu, on the other hand, is a very splashable wallbreaker (22% of the teams pack it), that also provide u turn utility and has a very abusable speed tier, and extremly limited long-term defensive counterplay.

Unlike other wallbreakers, since Urshifu is splashable, has very limited long-term defensive counterplay (Bruh i feel like i repeated that one billion times)(Pex/tang + Clef/Mandibuzz, and Buzzwole), and has access to u-turn, it's really easy to punish really hard this counterplay in the builder. It warped the defensive metagame so hard around it, it became insanely easy to counter team that defensive meta. Again, those defensive answers are playing Urshifu's game, and it's a rigged game.
 
Yes it's easier to manage when it 2HKOs the entire game. The whole issue with Urshifu is it takes two mons to answer on any team without UB Buzz, one to make sure it isn't clicking the move that beats your "answer" and one actual "answer". Oh and the "answer" has to be constantly kept at high health or it drops to two Wicked Blows anyway, which makes it passive bait for anything else.
First of all it doesn't 2hko the entire metagame, second of all, check its speed tier. And by the way, urshifu just makes so stall isn't as reliable as it could be, which in my personal oppinion I think this is good for the metagame AGAIN, this is just my personal oppinion. As I mentioned before, what urshifu does is you to play more proactively, rather than waiting for the opponent to go and destroy your team. That is why this is COMPETITIVE POKÉMON in the first place.
It's hardly "free" chip when your scout needs a free turn to recover at some point to do it again. EG: Urshifu hits Hippo with Banded Wicked Blow, Hippo switches into the Dark resist (which takes 30-40%), Urshifu switches into Slowbro as your Dark resist heals up, then as you switch into something to hit Slowbro it Teleports back in Urshifu and Hippo can no longer answer it. Best hope you get that next 50/50 right. Teleport, especially when combined with Future Sight, makes momentum super-easy to shift back to the Shifu player, and Shifu itself even has U-turn to keep momentum up if it can't break your core at this exact moment. Urshifu is by far the best abuser of momentum in the metagame.
As I mentioned above, this is not as easy to pull off if you know that Slowbro can have the possibility to run Future Sight + Teleport, you can use mons that can punish both mons and there are a lot of them as I specified in my post. A combination of 2 mons does the same to the combination of 2 mons of the opposing team if the user without this ''broken mechanic of 50/50''plays pro actively rather than let the opponent set that up.
Max Phys Def Mandibuzz is a bad Defogger in the current metagame, and is a terrible Spectrier answer as it is Rocks weak and can't reliably answer it if burned and/or Knocked. Plus it auto-loses to Sub Disable if it doesn't carry 2 Dark attacks, which makes it a momentum drain.
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 180-212 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
+2 252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 148-174 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk burned Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Spectrier: 79-94 (23.1 - 27.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk burned Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Spectrier: 111-132 (32.5 - 38.7%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
Hence Mandibuzz cannot carry full Phys Def (it also needs speed creep too if trying to be a Defogger) and hence:
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 220-261 (52 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz on a critical hit: 111-131 (26.2 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (so Rocks+Wicked Blow does >50%).
Mandibuzz it's not a bad defogger. You just don't let your opponent put you into a possition to knock your boots + abuse your knocked boots, that argument doesn't make much sense to me. Plus the fact that you can consiously make SPECIFIC SPREADS to not let happen what you have just shown with that damage calculation.
Newsflash! Offense Revenge Killer Beats Breaker If Given A Free Switch! (assuming you're not chipped and it's not Sucker....)
Oh! You surely let your opponent to set up for a threat like specs dragapult/spectrier to sweep your entire team with hex previously having statused your entire team and put your team weaken to a dragapult/spectrier or other threats than can abuse statuses like hawlucha, sand rush
Newsflash! Defensively Invested Mon takes 1 Single Hit From Breaker If It Has Not Switched Into Rocks Once In An Entire Game And Kills With Priority If Breaker Has Switched Into Rocks 5 Times!
Also:
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 248-294 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
So yeah uh trying to call this an "answer" is a joke because Rillaboom can't even revenge kill it under anything but totally ideal circumstances while invested specifically for that job.
First of all, that rillaboom set doesn't make any sense to me, beacuse you haven't explained what it can accomplish. I have made a Rillaboom variant that can acomplish various things, here you have an example of an ev spread I have used and it has worked out for me + it is optimal from the experience I've had with it PLAYING THE METAGAME: One of my CB Rillaboom variants. (pokepast.es) Try to understand this spread and then reply back.
Instead of quoting bad techs that don't actually solve the problem with Urshifu, think about why it's actually resricting. It's not restricting because of a lack of mons that can take one hit per game and force it out. It's not restricting because of a lack of mons that can lure/revenge kill it in a totally ideal scenario. It's restricting because of a total lack of long-term answers outside a small and limited set of cores or running Buzzwole, and all of those cores are easily exploitable. And top players feel the same way as I do, hence this suspect.
As I've said many times, play the game so you can have solid arguments providing examples. That's a good theory... I guess....??? But first try to put that in practise. I've only expressed my point of view beacuse I needed to share my thoughts on why Urshifu-Single-Strike can be maneageable and try to be more respectful with other people sets if you can't comprenhend what the sets can accomplish. This is a new generation, there are lots of things to be explored yet. And this will happen when the Official Smogon Tournament begins.
What makes Urshifu broken is, imo, the fact that there is very limited long-term defensive answers to it. FuturePort can be considered like problem on its own, since it can be used with any breaker, and thus is a bad ban-Urshifu argument.
Urshifu can't live in the long term. In fact, it lacks reliable recovery besides drain punch + help of wish port (?) + what I said about future sight is true. There is a lot of offense in this particular metagame that can punish future sight users that can apply a lot of pressure to this strategy, and I don't say your argument is bad either, I respect it, I think you don't respect my arguments replying to this, and you want to make me change my point of view, which doesn't have much logic to me.
Urshifu has way less reliable defensive counterplay than banded melmetal or hawlucha (Won't talk about Magearna since this mon might be broken too). Banded melmetal has an unique, way less spammable, stab, and is prediction reliant. Also, being slower than Zapdos and corv, two common defensive staples, prevent him from scoring a 2HKO on team with his supereffective coverage, since roost remove the flying type's weaknesses.
Melmetal can have more variants appart from banded with rock slide or thunder punch, it has access to protect and toxic which can punish zapdos a lot in the long run and it can also run protective pads, assault vest or even banded or even life orb in trick room teams.
Urshifu, on the other hand, is a very splashable wallbreaker (22% of the teams pack it), that also provide u turn utility and has a very abusable speed tier, and extremly limited long-term defensive counterplay.
It doesn't have limited counterplay and you can always scout what the urshifus attacks and sets are. as I sad in my post.
Unlike other wallbreakers, since Urshifu is splashable, has very limited long-term defensive counterplay (Bruh i feel like i repeated that one billion times)(Pex/tang + Clef/Mandibuzz, and Buzzwole), and has access to u-turn, it's really easy to punish really hard this counterplay in the builder. It warped the defensive metagame so hard around it, it became insanely easy to counter team that defensive meta. Again, those defensive answers are playing Urshifu's game, and it's a rigged game.
... Splashable??? If you like it you use it and if you don't like it you don't use it, it is that simple. This is just a fighting and dark type pokemon with less than 100 speed and a lot of possible ways to stop it as I pointed in my first post. Only using always the same pokemons in every team doesn't really help to let a metagame to depelop, especially this where I think there are a lot of good things that can be use to stop the terror of urshifu which isn't really that big of a deal, it is just good again from my point of view and again. I respect your point of view as well as the other people's point of view beacuse of course each person can have their own, sure but if you have actually played the metagame a lot and explore all the wonderful strategies that the OverUsed metagame has to offer, which is a great tier as of right now by the way, there are more things that can be discussed from this Urshifu suspect test for sure.

Kind Regards. I have nothing else to add related with urshifu-single-strike suspect test. Thanks for reading and have a nice day!

:blobthumbsup: :blobnom:
 
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And by the way, urshifu just makes so stall isn't as reliable as it could be, which in my personal oppinion I think this is good for the metagame AGAIN, this is just my personal oppinion. As I mentioned before, what urshifu does is you to play more proactively, rather than waiting for the opponent to go and destroy your team. That is why this is COMPETITIVE POKÉMON in the first place.
I'm not going to bother responding to the rest, as this just shows that bias I mentioned in my first post.
So Stall Bad Offense Good Urshifu Beats Stall Therefore Urshifu Good.
1. I think it's my turn to tell you to get creative. There are more Pokemon that 6-0 stall than teambuilders know what to do with. The only known stall answer to SD Crawdaunt is Itemless Tangrowth. Reuniculus instantly 6-0s from preview every single stall team that doesn't have a Dark that isn't PP stalled by it (lol). A well played Heatran is so terrifying for stall that past-gen players resorted to DIGLET to not just lose to it. And FuturePort Slowbro turns half the metagame into near-unstoppable wallbreakers. If you have a problem with stall in Gen 8... With Magearna still legal in the tier...
2. This suspect is not about the metagame you enjoy. It's about judging whether Urshifu is broken as per the Smogon Tiering Philosophy Framework. Urshifu has too much of a restricting effect on teambuilding, especially for balance teams (not the stall teams that can devote 2-3 slots to answering it all day and all night). It also is difficult to answer in battle in the long game, which turns otherwise skilful interactions into coin tosses. As such it reduces the impact of player skill on battles, which makes it broken. So yes, this is competitive Pokemon, and banning Urshifu makes the game more skilful.
Try to understand this spread and then reply back.
Since you requested it, this Rillaboom is running 104 Def so that the damage calculator says it lives a single hit from Urshifu in a fantasy world where an offensive pivot has not taken any chip at all (assuming it doesn't just get U-turned on because it's slower). It is running Superpower over the objectively superior Wood Hammer to OHKO Urshifu and pretty much only Urshifu, since everything else it hits gets worn down by U-turn, Wood Hammer and Knock anyway. It is not running max speed to avoid the speed tie with the currently popular Nidoking, and the amount of speed is chose so that it is 2 points slower than 252 Adamant Lando-T, and ties with 252 Modest Moltres-G for some reason, as well as creeping all the neutral nature base 89 Speed mons (of which none exist). I'm sure you chose it for Timid Heatran, but a few extra Speed points would have hit some very nice benchmarks. The rest is dumped into Atk without an Adamant nature so that the Grassy Glides can't clean efficiently lategame.

Just run Bulu if you're that desperate for an Urshifu "check" (which Rilla's not since it loses if Rocks are up and gets U-turned on anyway).
 
... Splashable??? If you like it you use it and if you don't like it you don't use it, it is that simple. This is just a fighting and dark type pokemon with less than 100 speed and a lot of possible ways to stop it as I pointed in my first post. Only using always the same pokemons in every team doesn't really help to let a metagame to depelop, especially this where I think there are a lot of good things that can be use to stop the terror of urshifu which isn't really that big of a deal, it is just good again from my point of view and again. I respect your point of view as well as the other people's point of view beacuse of course each person can have their own, sure but if you have actually played the metagame a lot and explore all the wonderful strategies that the OverUsed metagame has to offer, which is a great tier as of right now by the way, there are more things that can be discussed from this Urshifu suspect test for sure.
The question is, how many of those methods are actually viable, as opposed to shooting yourself in the foot just to try to answer one specific mon (key word there being "try")? Because your first post was picked apart by multiple other users, myself included.
It doesn't have limited counterplay and you can always scout what the urshifus attacks and sets are. as I sad in my post.
How are you gonna scout Urshifu? Because as it's bashing your face in while you try to do so, by the time you know what set it is, odds are the damage has already been done and you're likely getting another L. Also, it does have limited counterplay, as defensively, Clefable and Fini fear Poison Jab, and the latter has no recovery. It can even possibly break Buzzwole. Offensively, only a handful of stuff outspeeds it, and most either can't switch in (which restricts them to revenge killing), get rekt by Sucker Punch, or both. Of course, even if those come in, they just might switch Urshifu out, which denies any attempt at revenge killing.
 
Hey people! Hope you're doing well! I'm here to share my opinion on Urshifu and why it should get banned.

:ss/Urshifu:

1. What makes Urshifu broken?

There are many factors why Urshifu is as effective as it is. Keep in mind that Urshifu-R is also a thing and it comes off as underwhelming sometimes. What makes Single-Strike more effective than its counterpart?

I. Typing: Fighting/Dark is a good offense typing. Urshifu does have a problem though, since it gets walled by a common type and a few type combos. Here are the types/type combination that can wall its Stabs:
  • Fairies: Clef, Fini, Geezing are good checks, for being able to tank Urshifus stabs well. However they have some issues. Especially Fini and Geezing, since they don't have reliable recovery. Fini has Draining Kiss, which you can't successfully use against everything, and Geezing has Pain Split, which is really unreliable outside of a Blissey/Chansey match up. Those two get worn down more easily. Clef has Soft-Boiled and Magic Guard so it's possibly the best check, right?
    Yes it is, until Urshifu either packs out Poison Jab or Iron Head, which really damages Clef. You could argue that Poison Jab is worse against Geezing and Iron Head is worse against Fini, which is true, but remember they don't have reliable recovery and those moves still do quite a bit of damage.
  • Bug/Fighting: Buzzwole is the most notable here, since Mosa is banned and Heracross can't check at all. Buzzwole isn't a check, it's a counter. Urshifu can't do anything. Even BU variants loose it, since Buzzwole would just use Bulk Up in its face. However there is a way Urshifu can beat Buzzwole: Aerial Ace. Buzzwole will just get 2HKOed (or OHKOed by an itemless Acrobatics) and then Urshifu can run wild. Well, it isn't that simple. First of all, Buzzwole isn't that common, so those moves will mostly be useless, plus what move do you want to replace? Replace Poison Jab or Iron Head and your walled by the fairies. Replace Sucker Punch and you can't do anything against faster opponents.
    It sounds like Buzzwole is the perfect mon against Urshifu and it is in a 1v1 environment, however we, as the player base, aren't dumb. We'll just switch out to other mons like Slowbro, which can either Slack Off, to heal itself, Future Sight to threaten Buzzwole out and supporting its team or it just uses teleport and switches to a mon that deals with Buzzwole. I'll talk about Slowbro later.
  • Fighting/Flying: Hawlucha and Gapdos aren't build to wall it, but I still thought I'll mention them, since they can switch into Urshifu and threaten it with a Super effective move. Hawlucha can potentially heal off the damage it received with Roost. Gapdos doesn't have roost so it isn't as good as Hawlucha in that role, but they can certainly help out in a pinch.
  • Poison/Fighting: Yeah, forget Toxicroak. It won't do anything.
II. Slowbro: This slow, derpy, pink wall might be the reason why Urshifu went from borderline broken (more into the broken side) to suspect worthy broken. Why is that? Simple: Future Sight + Easy walling of Urshifu's checks.
  • Future Sight makes Urshifu's hits hard to wall. Clef, Fini and Geezing can take more than two Wicked Blows, but once they get hit by Future Sight, they done for. Especially Geezing and Buzzwole. This forces you to either sac your checks to Urshifu or sac any other Pokémon and keep your check and hope to heal it before Urshifu comes back in. The reason why it works so well is that Urshifu scares a lot of dark types, so that they can't absorb the Future Sight. The only downside to this philosophie, is that they have to switch in on a Wicked Blow and then get hit by FS. Otherwise they just KO Urshifu in the 1v1.
    vs Clefable

    252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable on a critical hit: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 5.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    2 hits deal 65.4 - 77.6%

    0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 141-166 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    With FS 101.1 - 119.7%

    Guaranteed KO


    vs Tapu Fini


    252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Tapu Fini on a critical hit: 101-119 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    2 hits deal 58.8 - 69.2%

    0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 103-123 (30 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    With FS 88.8 - 105% are dealt.

    High chance to KO after Leftovers and Rocks


    vs Weezing-Galar, Buzzwole, Hawlucha & Zapdos-Galar


    0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Weezing-Galar: 344-408 (102.9 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 428-506 (102.3 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hawlucha: 372-440 (125.2 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    FS is enough no Wicked Blow needed

    0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos-Galar: 282-332 (87.8 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

    Guaranteed KO with Wicked Blow
  • Slowbro can easily switch into Urshifus checks and can Slack Off, set up FS or Teleport to something else. It can get crippled by status (Burn, Para, Toxic) or by item removal (Knock Off, Corrosive Gas), but this isn't the end of the day for Slowbro. There isn't much to say here.
If the FS + Teleport strategy had been used at the beginning of Isle of Armor, then Urshifu would have been suspect testes instead of Magearna or it would have been quick banned instead of Cinderace. Those are just assumtions, but I think it would've been Uber until Crown Tundra came out.

III. Moves: Like everything else in my post, this topic is pretty much milked out. Wicked Blow is broken, everyone knows that. 120 BP Stab that ignores negative attack drops and positive defense boosts on the opponent. Oh, and Unseen Fists practically makes Protect useless against Urshifu. Close Combat is the second Stab and helps deal super effective damage against Rock, Dark and Steel-types. Sucker Punch helps against faster mons and than either Poison Jab or Iron Head, but mostly Poison Jab. Slap on CB and you're good to go. Life Orb with Bulk Up is also great, but it has the same problem as Aerial Ace. Which move do you replace? But unlike Aerial Ace, Bulk Up has way more benefits and it worth getting rid off CC or Poison Jab. You should keep Sucker though.

There are other factors way it is so effective such as its stats and the ability, but those are self-explanatory. You don't need someone like me to tell you, that a mon 130 base attack is nuclear against an opponent that can't use protect.

2. How does it restrict teambuilding?

Simple, being able to defeat its checks and being a checks to many mons itself. Think about Spectrier. It forces you to run either a Dark or Normal type. It can also beat it checks with Will-o, Disable, NP and many more strategies, but it can't do anything to Blissey and specially defensive Dark types that don't mind the burn. However Urshifu can potentially beat every single check of it. Fairies die to Poison Jab or Iron Head or to the combination of Wicked Blow/Close Combat and Future Sight. Hawlucha and Gapdos and just 2HKOed by either Wicked Blow or Close Combat. As mentioned before Buzzwole is a hard counter and slapping Aerial Ace isn't really that viable on Urshifu, but Buzzwole doesn't check many things other than Urshifu plus Buzzwole is hard countered by Urshifus common teammate Slowbro. You could also run different mons to check Urshifu, something other people mentioned above me, so check those out.
For example, the person who made my Secret Santa (I love it btw, thank you! Whoever made it) couldn't fit a Fairy, so what was their solution? Switching in Tangrowth to rack up Rocky Helment damage and then switch to Slowking, if its CC and to Mandibuzz if its Wicked Blow. Yes, 3 mons in order to check Urshifu. To be fair those help with other mons as well, such as Spectrier, Physical Grounds and a few Special attackers, but Urshifu can still beat this core, since it relies on the fact that Urshifu is choiced. I got beaten by one who used Black Glasses (which is a great item on it) and bluffed CB, altough I'll admit it was my fault for not noticing it, but BU Urshifu still beats it.
To summerize this: You can technically keep Urshifu in check, but it can also beat your check.

That's the "Darkest Day" they mentioned in the main story, huh

3. Replacements

I want talk about other checks too, but everyone else before me, talked about it in detail.
So, let's say Urshifu gets banned (which is probably happening), what would it's replacements be?
I won't talk about all the mons that would get better or worse after Urshifus ban, because I lack the experience to determine that.
Soooo, I'd rather talk about the Pokémon that face competition from Urshifu and who will get better once it's gone.


:ss/urshifu-rapid-strike:
Urshifus rain depended sibling almost dropped to UU last drops and it really isn't that good outside of rain. However, I realized that Urshifu-Rs checks are dealt by a teammate of it. Amoonguss, Toxapex, Fini, Pelipper and many more can potentially be dealt with by FS Slowbro. This basically requires the same formula as with regular Urshifu. They have to switch in eat a Stab and FS and then make a uncomfortable decision. This isn't as effective on Urshifu-R though. They are two checks to it that don't fear this combination: Latios/Latias and Slowbro (What a betrayel), those can easily tank a Stab and FS, even being able to heal off the damage dealt.
In addition to that Surging Strikes has more drawback than Wicked Blow. First of all, it's a multi-hit move, which is great against Substitute or Focus Slash, but it also means that it racks up Rock Helmet (maximum of 1/3 of the maximum HP after 3 hits) or Iron Barbs/Rough Skin (maximum of 3/8 of the maximum HP after 3 hits) damage or even both (which would result in loosing 17/24 of the maximun HP or 70% of the maximum HP). Not only that but Zapdos's Static and Moltres's Flame Body have about a 66% chance to inflict their status condition, which absolutely sucks.
I still think it's going to be better and even function outside of rain.
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
- U-turn / Thunder Punch / Aqua Jet


:ss/hawlucha:
Hawlucha has risen to OU last shifts and deservedly so. It hits on any team that has a Tapu or Rillaboom. It becomes really fast after consuming it's seed and it can potentielly sweep with its Stabs, SD and a coverage move. You can also run Roost, which is a really good move on, since you can keep your sweep ongoing, but that means that Tapu Koko and Aegislash (being able to tank a +2 hit) are checks to you and Zapdos basically is a hard counter (not being 2HOed by +2 and being able to tank a +6 hit and OHKO it back). Plus when it switches out it looses it's unburden boost, but nonetheless Hawlucha is a force to be recken with.
Hawlucha @ Grassy Seed (Any Seed)
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Rock Slide / Roost / Throat Chop


:ss/zapdos-galar:
This is so outclassed by Hawlucha. On advantage that Gapdos has is the fact that it doesn't loose to much by switching out, Although Adamant Hawlucha is still faster than Jolly Gapdos. Gapdos has on more advantage: Immediate power with it's great base 125 attack and Thunderous Kick. Being honest Thunderous Kick is worse compared to CC, but it can be used to make walls more sensitive to its flying stab or its coverage move. Hawlucha would be your go to pick on offensive teams or teams with terrain, but Gapdos is actually more similiar to Urshifu: Similiar Attack and Speed, two great attacking types, a Stab move that messes walls up and no better set up moves than Bulk Up. So you can use it on more Balance teams as a Urshifu replacement or teams that Hawlucha can't fit in as well.
Zapdos-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunderous Kick
- Drill Peck / Brave Bird
- Blaze Kick
- Bulk Up

Honorable Mentions:
:ss/blaziken:
I've stated many time before why I don't like to use this thing. 4MSS, lack of power since you have to run Jolly and common checks. You can still play around this problems with proper teambuilding and skillful play, but I'm not that kind of person. Anyways you can still use Blaziken to some extend.


:ss/terrakion:
Terrakion also has a good dual Stab typing, SD and Justified, a great ability for it, its Rock Stab isn't as consistant as Brave Brid/Acrobatics or Wicked Blow since Rock moves can miss and it really sucks if you do miss a hit on a crucial Pokémon. I still think that it is getting used.


:ss/conkeldurr:
This might be a bit of a strech, but Conkeldurr could possibly run a bulky set up sweeper. With Drain Punch for recovery, Facade for great damage, Knock Off as Coverage against Ghosts and Mach Punch it's a force to be recon with. Well not really. Those Ghosts fear Knock Off, but they are faster than Conk and a immune to Mach Punch. I still though I'd mention Conkeldurr, since I see potential.

That's it people, thanks for reading! It means a lot! Feel free to disagree with me or correct me if I'm wrong.
Have a great day and a happy new year! (since this is my last post until 2021)
Stay safe and I'll see you very soon!
 
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This suspect is way long overdue and I’m a little confused on why it was so delayed

Before DLC we suspect Magearna then Cinderace, then most was looking at Pex next instead of Urshifu. Keep in mind Urshifu was so restricted pre-DLC that people had to ran terrible mon like Wheezing-Galar, but nope no suspect test needed. Without a doubt pre-DLC Urshifu was more broken, more restricted, and have much less counters. Clef usage was in the 80% at one point in tournaments.

This meta there are a lot more counters, checks, and revenge killer it: Clef, Fini, Tangrowth, Buzzwole, Mag, KoKo to name a few.

It is also extremely disingenuous whenever people brings up a way to counter to a deemed “broken” mon, people will respond with either perfect prediction or some strange tech move to downplay its counter. Case in point CB Poison Jab prediction into Clef and Aerial Ace for Buzzolwe. Seriously, Aerial Ace? Yes let me tech this one move that would be useless 99% of the time as well as I will always correctly predict opponent. Damn guys see I told you xxx mon is broken. Or yes perfect timing with Future Sight into rocks damage into correct move choice damn this counter mon is dead. This mon can also apparently run Life Orb, Choice Band, Black Glasses, Adamant, Jolly, U Turn, Bulk Up, Sucker, CC, Jab all in one set. Damn guys see it can’t even be countered or checked anymore because I have the perfect move for every situation.

You can literally make any offensive Pokémon “broken” if you just tech in perfect move, perfect sets for its counter and correctly predict every time, but that’s not how it works is it.

Let’s be honest, Urshifu is getting banned. If this suspect test was Magearna or Spectrier, I would bet my life saving that they would be banned as well. Even if they are less prominent s threats like Pex and Ace, highly likely it would probably be banned too since you can always phrase it in a way to make them “broken.” So these suspects tests almost always turn out to be mostly a formality. Whatever mon being suspected next is basically getting banned

It feels like most of the time the suspect test is just straight up whatever the council ”feels” with no real consistency. Just a few words from the council in the postslike “restricted“ and “overcentralizing“ and all of the sudden a mon will be deemed “broken” by the community.

We know what mons are broken, so what are we doing with these mental gymnastics trying to justify one is more broken than the other?
 
It is also extremely disingenuous whenever people brings up a way to counter to a deemed “broken” mon, people will respond with either perfect prediction or some strange tech move to downplay its counter. Case in point CB Poison Jab prediction into Clef and Aerial Ace for Buzzolwe. Seriously, Aerial Ace? Yes let me tech this one move that would be useless 99% of the time as well as I will always correctly predict opponent. Damn guys see I told you xxx mon is broken. Or yes perfect timing with Future Sight into rocks damage into correct move choice damn this counter mon is dead. This mon can also apparently run Life Orb, Choice Band, Black Glasses, Adamant, Jolly, U Turn, Bulk Up, Sucker, CC, Jab all in one set. Damn guys see it can’t even be countered or checked anymore because I have the perfect move for every situation.
Prediction is a part of the game. People who will make reqs and use Urshifu will win matches with it. Which means they did predict right.

And Urshifu cannot have all moves and items on one set. But you also will have to run a counter or check specific to his set. What are you going to do ? Predict the set before the match starts. Or run three checks to Urshifu where two get shot in the head and the third finally takes him, while you lost a third of your team.

Another thing, if you switch in your Mandibuzz to take a wicked blow, you also have to predict that Urshifu doesn't use Close Combat. If you switch in your Clefairy to take a CC or WB, you have to predict that Urshifu doesn't use Poison Jab.

Now prediction goes both way, but what we should analyse is the cost of misprediction. The Urshifu user mispredicts, banded wicked blow takes 32 - 38 % of your Clef and can simply switch out as you are forced to use Soft Boiled. But if the Clefable user mispredicts, he gets 2HKO's by Poison Jab or Iron Head. The cost is unfairly high for the Clefable user. This is why Urshifu is Uncompetetive.

Also, how do you find out Urshifu's moveset ? You can't safely scout as Unseen fist DGAF about protect. Which means Urshifu user can just click it's STAB brainlessly (without predicting anything) and force the expected switch in to heal off the damage which gives the counter a free switch in. That's all without factoring in coverage moves which can remove a good 60 - 70 % from your counter who also happens to be slower which means you again have to switch of heal and lose momentum.

So these suspects tests almost always turn out to be mostly a formality. Whatever mon being suspected next is basically getting banned
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...eed-demon-read-post-1278.3498655/post-5244989

This thread is my favorite suspect. This completely describes how suspects should happen and as a new comer I was really impressed. People don't ban something brainlessly. They debate it out. They find out what was wrong in their argument. People propose ways to deal with mons, and other people describe whether the proposed mons are actually counters or not. People discussed the effect of the mons on the metagame etc. If you read it, you would know that there are much more arguments than 'Restricting' and 'Overcentralising' to ban things.

We know what mons are broken, so what are we doing with these mental gymnastics trying to justify one is more broken than the other?
Because not everyone feels the same way and people would appreciate a platform to let others know what they think. Whether their way of thinking is accurate or not.
 
Everybody keeps mentioning that Gapdos is completely outclassed by hawlucha as an urshifu check, which I don't believe is true. Hawlucha's bulk is considerably worse than Gapdos', meaning it has to eat into its already less than impressive attack stat to deal with urshifu, and potentially has to run roost without having leftovers, which is sub optimal and also means it'll be lacking a coverage option, overall making hawlucha worse at its roll in hyper offense. Gapdos, on the other hand, has significantly better 90/90/90 bulk, and an impressive 125 attack stat. 144 hp allows turns every attack from Jolly banded Urshifu-S into a 3HKO after leftovers, and can ohko back with brave bird or set up with bulk up/agility. Overall I think that Gapdos is a very solid check to Urshifu that both fits on balance and isn't a total momentum drain, unlike some other pokemon mentioned earlier
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
Moderator
We know what mons are broken, so what are we doing with these mental gymnastics trying to justify one is more broken than the other?
If you have issues with the system or how it is applied, feel free to PM me or the council. There is no place for excessive complaining in this thread, which your post was littered with beyond the part I’m quoting even.

Until then, please continue your mental gymnastics everyone!
 
Everybody keeps mentioning that Gapdos is completely outclassed by hawlucha as an urshifu check, which I don't believe is true. Hawlucha's bulk is considerably worse than Gapdos', meaning it has to eat into its already less than impressive attack stat to deal with urshifu, and potentially has to run roost without having leftovers, which is sub optimal and also means it'll be lacking a coverage option, overall making hawlucha worse at its roll in hyper offense. Gapdos, on the other hand, has significantly better 90/90/90 bulk, and an impressive 125 attack stat. 144 hp allows turns every attack from Jolly banded Urshifu-S into a 3HKO after leftovers, and can ohko back with brave bird or set up with bulk up/agility. Overall I think that Gapdos is a very solid check to Urshifu that both fits on balance and isn't a total momentum drain, unlike some other pokemon mentioned earlier
You have a point, but you mentioned that Hawlucha has roost and that is one of the points why it is better than Gapdos. Not only defensively, but also offensively. Hawlucha can get rid of chip damage, while Gapdos has to rely on Leftovers. Hawlucha can switch into Urshifu more than Gapdos.
I also think you misunderstood, with the statement that Gapdos is outclassed by Hawlucha as a Urshifu check. Both check it decently well, but Hawlucha is a way better Pokémon in general. The only thing that Gapdos has other it is more immediate damage and Defiant and that's it.
 
You have a point, but you mentioned that Hawlucha has roost and that is one of the points why it is better than Gapdos. Not only defensively, but also offensively. Hawlucha can get rid of chip damage, while Gapdos has to rely on Leftovers. Hawlucha can switch into Urshifu more than Gapdos.
I also think you misunderstood, with the statement that Gapdos is outclassed by Hawlucha as a Urshifu check. Both check it decently well, but Hawlucha is a way better Pokémon in general. The only thing that Gapdos has other it is more immediate damage and Defiant and that's it.
Situationally hawlucha is better, but without HP investment it can get KO'd by AoA Urshifu by any of its moves into sucker punch, and hawlucha doesn't have enough attack to be running much HP. The Gapdos set I've been running is 144 hp/ 112 atk/ 252 speed Jolly, which is not only way way bulkier than lucha, but is also 2 points stronger than 252 adamant lucha. Gapdos can actually switch in and threaten nearly any urshifu set once, and with wish support can do it multiple times all while being a threatening offensive option in its own right. Gapdos is bulkier and hits harder, and its still pretty fast. It's straight up a better check than lucha
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Instead of quoting bad techs that don't actually solve the problem with Urshifu, think about why it's actually resricting. It's not restricting because of a lack of mons that can take one hit per game and force it out. It's not restricting because of a lack of mons that can lure/revenge kill it in a totally ideal scenario. It's restricting because of a total lack of long-term answers outside a small and limited set of cores or running Buzzwole, and all of those cores are easily exploitable. And top players feel the same way as I do, hence this suspect.
Hey I was reading through this thread and I saw a general trend that I wanted to point out. theotherguytm, please don't feel like I'm singling you out and I know that I've previously had discussions with you in other threads - I just thought that this was encapsulated by the back-and-forth you had with egalvanc. First, I just want to point out at that egalvanc is a top player (or at least I consider him to be one; he's obviously better than the vast majority of Smogon), and while it's obviously perfectly fine to disagree with his viewpoint, he is talking from his personal experience in the tier about how he believes there is sufficient counterplay to Urshifu. That's the whole reason for suspect tests - to have players that have had proven success in a tier form their opinions based on their experiences. If I understood egalvanc's original post correctly, he was saying that he believes that there are more options to deal with Urshifu than just the traditional defensive answers (Clef, Buzzwole, regen + pivot, etc.), whether it be playing more proactively to not make it easy for Urshifu to come in and attack freely, using lure sets like Chople Melmetal, or speed creeping with Scarfed Fairies (he didn't even mention the Scarfed Clef that creeps Garchomp, and by extension, Urshifu, that craing ;_; invented, which in general is very good against defensive teams as well, thanks to Trick). Now I don't want to sound like I'm defending Urshifu, because I also don't like the Pokemon and think it being banned (which seems like it will be the outcome) will probably benefit the tier, but I don't like the general trend of theory and damage calcs done in a vacuum that permeates many of these threads. Like sure, obviously thinking about certain scenarios and calcing outcomes is a great thing and at the core of playing, but as we all know, games don't always turn out as we think that they "should" based on our building and strategizing. This is why higher level replays (and I don't mean for this to sound pretentious to anyone, since I'm not a top player myself, but low ladder games don't really say much about how Pokemon "should" function, since the players often aren't utilizing their Pokemon optimally) are usually more convincing than even the best thought-out of essays. I think this is also why replays are required for things like viability ranking nominations.

So in general, my point is not really about Urshifu specifically (and I hope that's alright in this thread) and more about how just looking at how you expect for things to turn out on paper can lead to reinforcing common dogma and stagnating growth. I don't fully agree with egalvanc's views on Urshifu, but that doesn't really matter; what matters is that he has found success playing the tier and claims that the way he has played/built has mitigated Urshifu as a problem. You can question how he was able to achieve that and whether or not what he says is sufficient to warrant Urshifu remaining in OU, but I think that it's not really meaningful to use theory and calcs to question something that he has already had proven success with, if that makes since. Overall, I don't want to detract from the discussion concerning Urshifu and I hope I didn't come off as disrespectful - I just wanted to state that I think that sometimes pontificating about Pokemon (which is kind of a funny idea in and of itself, if you step back and think about what so many of us, myself included, spend so much time doing; not like there's something inherently wrong with it though) based solely on theory can at times obscure the more valuable experiences of knowledgeable players.

TL;DR: Using theory is all good, but I don't think that it should be used to challenge something that a player has proven to be successful. You shouldn't just blindly accept the ideas of a successful player, but I think that you shouldn't use theory to try to disprove what they have had proven success with either. I hope that I made that point in a clear and impartial manner, but my thoughts were kind of hard to articulate, so I apologize if I didn't really accomplish that.
 
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Single Strike Style Pangoro
Virgin Urshifu vs the Chad Pangoro

Jokes and who's the better Dark/Fighting type arguments aside, Urshifu is very restricting and too strong for its own good. I'm gonna go over the most common set that Urshifu uses.

Wicked Blow
This move is the definition of broken. An 80 BP that always crits, not to mention this dude's 130 Attack stat is isane. Most Pokemon that can resist it takes 30%-40% just from the move alone. Did I mention that it can sometimes break through Protect? How fun :)

Close Combat
120 base power Stab move just nukes Normal, Steel, Dark, and Rock types. This makes Shifu a great teammate to Spectier (another busted mon that gonna get thrashed later on) as Chansey, Tyranitar, and Obstagoon, threats that stop Specs, will get destroyed if they come across Urshifu. You don't even have to be weak to fighting, just neutral takes 60%-70% off your health.

Poison Jab/Iron Head
This hits Fairies such as Clef, Fini, and Geezing, which can come into this bear's attacks. Unfortunately, two of the three doesn't have a recovery option to become counters, and even if they did, Shifu would still take chunks of damage.

Bulk Up/Sucker Punch/U-turn/Aerial Ace
These four moves are the breaking point of Urshifu.
a. Bulk Up is more heavily based on prediction, well not really. All you have to do is switch into something Urshifu scares out and wait as the person switch into their Urshifu check. Congrats! You pretty much won the game! And if you're not the one using Urshifu....oof. One boost in attack deletes anything who can't take a hit, and cripples anything that can.
b. Sucker Punch stop already worn down revenge killers form killing it. It also threatens attacking in general.
c. Anything that Shifu can't take down immediately, he'll easily switch out with U-turn. Not to mention it hits Hydreigon and Rillaboom for effective damage.
d. Aerial-Ace is more of a meme, but it effectively takes down Lucha and UB Buzz.

I say let's ban it. This thing hits hard, and not in a very balanced way. Most of the checks and counters mentioned on this post are either not strong enough to reliably come into Urshifu the whole game or is very hard to put onto a team, which makes Urshifu very hard to reliably stop without losing a few teammates in the process.
 
:Urshifu:
Urshifu should be banned from SS OU, for three reasons.

First, after Pheromosa's ban, Urshifu finally has the freedom to make full use of its coverage moves, amplifying its ability to break through balance teams with ease. While you could argue that it always had the freedom to snipe most of its checks, the opportunity cost of foregoing Sucker Punch in the very fast-paced, frail, and offensive early stages of DLC 2 was a bit too high to pass up in my opinion, and locking yourself into the wrong move (especially Sucker or Jab) had a huge cost associated with doing so. Foregoing U-turn seems to be a trendy option as of late too, making Urshifu worse at generating momentum for its teammates but giving it more room for coverage/Sucker Punch and yet another "mindgame" to add into the equation.

On one hand, I am personally forgiving of a reasonable degree of "mindgames", which is why I personally would not go as far as to say that Choice Band/Scarf sets on Urshifu are broken. Having to pivot around Urshifu's choice-locked attacks with something like Mandibuzz+Toxapex, or even a shakier core of a bulky Fairy (Clef, Koko, Toge) + bulky Steel (Mage/other) says more about the skill of the players rather than the tools they are using. However, I believe Life Orb sets have a bit too much flexibility in running coverage to break balance teams better, Sucker Punch to still threaten offensive teams, and the additional mindgame of scouting for Bulk Up or Substitute, on top of a completely skewed risk/reward if Urshifu predicts incorrectly. Unlike Choiced sets, there is a big difference to me between locking yourself into banded Wicked Blow to give a Magearna free turns, compared to predicting incorrectly and still being able to clean it up in the following turn. Urshifu is naturally faster than nearly all of its checks, so aside from bulky Tapu Koko or Unburden-activated Hawlucha, nearly all of them cannot really punish Urshifu for predicting incorrectly aside from accruing Life Orb chip or triggering other passive damage. This is no longer a fair risk/reward scenario, and these interactions are unhealthy for competitive gameplay.

Second, if you still feel we have enough counterplay in the metagame notwithstanding point #1, Urshifu has next to no reliable defensive counterplay when paired with Future Sight. I am not totally sold (yet) on the notion that Future Sight + Teleport + any balance breaker is a banworthy combination, but Urshifu is undoubtedly the best abuser of this strategy. Teleport Slowbro in particular feels like Urshifu's best partner, amplifying its ability to break through all of its checks with Future Sight, while at the same time mitigating the need to rely on Urshifu's sub-par bulk to actually get into play. Adding this layer of offensive and defensive support, on top of the already arduous process of keeping Urshifu in check, tilts the scales even further towards Urshifu being an unhealthy presence.

Third, I don't think that what Urshifu adds to the tier is really necessary or worth preserving at the moment, relative to the accommodations the tier is forced to make to keep Urshifu in it. Analyzing what something adds or takes from the tier is always subjective, so you could argue that it does force progress in games which is generally desirable, but I feel we have enough breakers in this tier that can do this in an arguably more balanced way. Forcing balance teams to perpetually run one or more of Physically Defensive Clefable, Buzzwole, Mandibuzz+Toxapex or other niche Fairy+Steel cores, in a metagame where there are multiple other mandatory elements of your teambuilding checklist, suggests to me that the costs outweigh the benefits of keeping Urshifu at this time.

I don't believe any single characteristic pushes Urshifu beyond the parameters of what is acceptable for a wallbreaker, but rather the cumulative effect of these metagame trends that does so. I am glad it got ample time to develop in the metagame, but I think at this time, Urshifu should be banned.
 
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Ok here's my take on this.

Ahem...

So Urshifu Single-Strike is, with little doubt, one of the best pokemon in OU. In fact, (in my opinion) it is the best with clef not being too far. Even pokemon that resist dark/fighting (i.e faries, flyings, darks, etc) these pokemon get wrecked by Urshifu's many coverage options.

Flying types
First, there are flyings. Thunder Punch chunks them hard and OHKO's offensive flyings. And let's say that it does get moved to Ubers.

  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia on a critical hit: 195-229 (46.8 - 55%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. While sure that isn't really a reliable chance of 2HKO-ing Max HP and Defense lugia you need to consider multiscale, super effectiveness, leftovers, and weathers that are in play. Without Multiscale Lugia gets 2HKO-ed even with leftovers recovery. But this is about OU, not ubers but I just wanted it to be heard that wicked blow and thunder/ice punch threaten Lugia which is a tanking machine. Now let's talk about thunder/ice punch for OU flying types.
  • Now let's try and see if Urshifu trembles against mandibuzz. You have your banded Urshifu S (locked into thunder punch) and clefable teleports mandibuzz onto the field. The mandibuzz has max HP and defense investment. Seems pretty safe right? Well.... not entirely! While yes thunder punch will 3HKO Mandibuzz what can mandibuzz really do to urshifu? What's preventing urshifu from switching? Nothing. Pursuit is not in SW/SH so urshifu can freely switch into clef,bliss,or another stall (or even offensive) mon. Most mandibuzz sets run FP,Roost,U-turn,and defog/taunt. No flying moves and since mandibuzz's are made for taking attacks (not dealing them) U-turn will barely make a mark on Urshifu.

Fairy Types


Now we talk about fairies.

  • I've mentioned clefable many times in this comment and, while yes, Urshifu s's biggest type disadvantage is fairy we have a bring up it's coverage once more. Poison jab. 252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 252-298 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Also (while not really a factor when determining damage) there's always the crit chance. While yes the crit still won't OHKO max invested clef and clef doesn't take poison damage. What can clefable do? It can moonblast yes, but then there's the focus sash urshifu set. Even without band Urshifu Poison jab will still 2HKO max invested clef. After taking a moonblast and surviving urshifu can switch out into another stall mon or a strong steel (i.e Excadrill). Urshifu also has Iron head which will in-fact 2HKO.
  • Now let's bring up Primarina. While yes, it has been moved to UU with the addition of crown tundra it still sees a lot of OU usage. Now Primarina tells a similar story like Clefable when going against Urshifu-S. The main point being it being threatned by poison jab. Unlike Clefable, Primarina isn't afraid of iron head due to it being neutral, but it traded being ok against iron head to be terrified of, you guessed it, thunder punch. While it's true that Primarina gets 2HKO-ed by both of these moves, that's only if it's running max HP and defense with a bold nature. Primarina isn't a tank mon (well it is... it just isn't used for that role) so there aren't any Maximum HP and defense invested primarina. walking (or swimming) around. Most primarinas are just max HP and Special attack with some sp defense. Absolutly no phsyical defense investment in sight. Without defense investment Primarina has a higher chance of getting OHKO'd by poison jab,thunder punch, AND iron head. But primarina does have a good chance of killing Urshifu if it isn't running sash since the maximum chance of primarina getting OHKO-ed is 55%.

Dark Types

Now we have other dark types. I don't even need to explain this one but lemme just say 2 words. Close.Combat.

No-Fear Sweepers

  • Another pokemon that resist urshifu's stab (or at least isn't threatened by them) is hawlucha, another high speed sweeper that can set up at light speed. Hawlucha has no defensive utility. While sure it learns detect, what exactly does it do for lucha? It very improbable that there's a leech seed up and, as I've said before, urshifu still has thunder punch. But Hawluchas will definitely be faster than Urshifu (unburden) so it can safely land an acrobatics and kill.
  • Now we talk about a set that has been rising in usage for a while. Belly drum and Salac berry kommo-o. Now this seems like a good option to counter (or at least check) Urshifu S. Drain punch for super effectiveness, kommo-o is hiding behind a sub, and has a speed boost to outspeed Urshifu. While this is a great counter to Urshifu, it works the best late game as most of the common pokemon to break subs,walls. and stall (spectrier,magearna, and hawluchas) are dead. But alas, this kommo-o set is for early game offense so urshifu can just switch into one of these pokemon to break sub. Especially spectrier because scarf sets outspeed kommo-o and and can kill kommo-o and then get a boost. This is because after setup kommo-o is at 25%. So lets say that the sub is broken but spectrier miraculously dies. What can Urshifu do? Well we have to bring up a point I've previously mentioned, and that's the fact that kommo-o is at 25%. Wicked blow,Close combat, and even U-turn (if the kommo-o isn't investing in defense) will kill kommo-o.



Now i've only been talking about how hard it is to tank urshifu's hits. Now let's talk about killing it.


Urshifu doesn't have that great of a defensive usage. It's typing isn't helping either. I'm not going to be talking about super-effective hits with STAB cuz those are explanatory


DD (Dragon Dance) Sweepers

  • Dragapult is the fastest DD sweeper in the tier. Dragon Darts will break sash sets and dragon claw/Outrage will OHKO Urshifu with 2 DD's up. With one DD there's a huge chance to OHKO Urshifu, but if it doesn't dragapult is in trouble because it will not survive a Stab, crit, Wicked blow especially with Band. With life orb it's a guranteed 2HKO but still Urshifu can heavily threaten dragapult.
  • Dragonite is a great DD Sweeper. With multiscale it can make great use of weakness policy for 2 extra boosts. Outrage will def kill with weakness policy boosts (or 2 DD's). With one DD boost there's a 3/4 chance to kill no investment Urshifu with Outrage. Also Dragonite will only not be scared of ice punch if at full HP. Dual wingbeat will break sash sets but.... don't run dual wingbeat it's abysmal accuracy isn't worth risking with an OU top threat. Run extreme speed or earthquake those will chunk urshifu well. Also if Urshifu's sash activates extreme speed will kill Urshifu.
  • TTar doesn't really use a dragon dance sweeper set. But when it does it isn't a good idea. Stone edge will not OHKO even with 2 dragon dance boosts. Let's say that ttar had 2 attack boosts (somehow) with choice band (S o m e h o w ) it still won't OHKO. Don't rely on DD ttar to kill Urshifu.
SS (Swords Dance) sweepers

  • Weavile is a good Swords Dance sweeper, but not a good match against Urshifu. It's 4x weak to fightning and icicle crash, low kick, brick break, and throat chop all of them fail to OHKO Urshifu. So this is a winning match-up for Urshifu. With Life orb though it will OHKO. So use it if it's your only pokemon that can deal with Urshifu but it's a huge hit-or-miss.
  • Kartana isn't a swords dance sweeper (well it can be but not most of the time) but holds a lot of attacking power. With coverage in knock off and sacred sword can help kartana's team to deal with Urshifu if kartana dies. If urshifu switches into a kartana's knock off it can help her (kartana is a "her" to me idc) team since Urshifu no longer has scarf/band. Sacred sword boosted by life orb will kill no defense investment urshifu. But be careful because if it uses sucker punch... yea your Kartana isn't in the best sweeping position, especially with life orb. Hell it may even outright kill kartana before killing Urshifu.


I'm still not done though! There are the also special offense pokemon that target Urshifu-S's weaker Sp defense.


Nasty Plot/ Calm Mind Sweepers

  • Hydreigon is a strong Nasty Plot sweeper with decent speed with a ground immunity so Urshifu's teammate Excadrill can hurt it. Although without Nasty Plot draco meteor will in fact kill 0 Hp + 0 Defense Urshifu. Also Hydreigon's speed stat is 2 points higher than Urshifu's..... without scarf. This is where NP Hydreigon is invalidated. Urshifu Scarf sets will maul Hydreigon with CC. 252 Atk Urshifu Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 428-506 (131.6 - 155.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Also if Urshifu is running a Sash Set it can simply survive Draco Meteor and Kill Hydreigon with a stab, super effective CC.
  • Spectrier has been a strong and solid OU pokemon with a legitimate role with the release of Crown Tundra. Spectrier is a great Nasty Plot sweeper because it has the same Ability as Magearna (only named different), Almost 400 max speed (without scarf), and a strong stab shadow ball that increases in power as the opponents team gets withered down. Seems solid right? Let's see! Well the first thing you notice about the Horse vs Bear matchup is that Urshifu obviously kills Spectrier with Wicked Blow. Well since the Supposed Spectrier set is a Nasty Plot sweeper, Spectrier will in fact be behind a sub to set up Nasty Plot. Spectrier last move will also be will-o-wisp, and a smart player will obviously use will-o-wisp before sub because it halves wicked blows power.
    • Here are some Calcs I ran. (These calc are against No Hp and No defense invested Urshifu)
    • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 278-328 (81.5 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
    • 252 Atk burned Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Spectrier on a critical hit: 331-391 (97 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
    • 252 Atk Choice Band burned Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Spectrier on a critical hit: 496-585 (145.4 - 171.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • 252 Atk Life Orb burned Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Spectrier on a critical hit: 430-508 (126 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • I didn't run Dark Pulse calcs because if Shadow Ball isn't doing much Dark Pulse is doing even less. Now Obviously based off of the calcs I ran Spectrier is ruined by Banded/Life Orbed/ and even Scarf Urshifu Wicked Blow. Do not use Spectrier to kill Urshifu, I know that's kind of a given but don't have any illusions.
  • Tapu Fini is a great calm mind user. Keep in mind I said "User" not sweeper. I say this because Fini's speed stat is too mediocre to sweep. Despite this fini and marina have a great typing to go against Urshifu. Also here are some calc for Fini vs Shifu
    • 252+ SpA Tapu Fini Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 832-984 (243.9 - 288.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • +2 252+ SpA Tapu Fini Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 116-137 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • 252+ SpA Tapu Fini Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 131-155 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • +2 252+ SpA Tapu Fini Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 262-309 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • So Tapu Fini actually has a lot of tools to go against Urshifu. +1 Surf will OHKO, Moonbllast with no boosts will OHKO, and Ice beam/Shadow Ball can chunk Urshifu well if Fini is about to die. With this information I think that Tapu Fini is a good answer but that only one of the few solid answer to Shifu.

With this Information the only decent and solid check I see in this reply is Clefable, Dragapult, Fini, and Marina.
Honouralbe Mentions: Hawlucha, Salac Berry and Belly Drum Kommo-o, Weavile, and Dragonite.








Thank You for reading my explanation as to why Urshifu should be banned from OU. Please reply if I missed something or should explain something more because I've never replied to a suspect thread before.
 
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Whilst laddering I've shamelessly stolen come across a nifty defensive Hawlucha set that counters Urshifu nicely;

Hawlucha @ Rocky Helmet
Impish Nature
Ability: Limber
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Def / 204 Spe
- Roost
- Drain Punch
- Encore/ Taunt
- Toxic

Takes less than half from all the standard Banded attacks, with the rare Thunder Punch dealing ~80%, but you can then Roost in his face and you're no longer weak to Electric. Rocky Helmet will nicely chip him down as you roost. Drain Punch is a 2HKO and heals back 25% of your HP, though they'll probably switch. If they Bulk Up as you switch in you can Encore them and then Toxic, or just Toxic them first if you're healthy. Even at +1 with LO you're taking max 70% and can spam Roost to cling on to life as Rocky Helmet, Toxic and LO eat his health away. Drain Punch can eat his last 33% of HP.

Neat set, does put in work against other mons in the tier as well. Taunt is probably better for the rest of the tier and does still do well against Urshifu.

Tldr Ban this sick filth
 
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