Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Ain't No Rest For The Wicked

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Finchinator

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I won't be getting reqs because I'm lazy but I figured I would chime in on something people are bringing up on the no ban side: offensive counter play and the offense match up. We know bulk up Urshifu is a menace against offense and balance alike, but even choice band or 4 attacks life orb STILL has a profound impact against offensive teams to the point where I heavily disagree with the fact that urshifu is worthy of a no ban vote because of the offense match up. It's speed may be mediocre and its special bulk quite poor, but it still can outspeed some offensive mons and it's physical bulk and resistance to rocks lets it always be very valuable against offensive teams. The way it plays out is that banded urshifu can always force at least one kill against offense and still be preserved at any HP to keep the threat of banded sucker punch in the back. From my experience as a mostly offense user, forcing even a single kill and having that very strong priority as a safety net in the back can still end up being extremely oppressive to hyper offensive or offensive teams during real-time scenarios. The aforementioned factors combined the fact urshifu can potentially force multiple kills against offense alongside a proper defensive core and pivoting, how insanely oppressive it is to slower/bulkier teams, and how surprisingly easy it is for certain set variations to take advantage of common counterplay options for other sets, I do not think urshifu belongs in the tier.
 

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Gonna start off as usual by showing proof of reqs:
Urshifu.png
Decided to stall the ladder this time around and had fairly decent results with it, 2 of my losses were to crits and the other 2 were to PS ladder matching me up against a guy with LO Rock Slide Excadrill twice. Gonna spare you the pain and not share the team I used this time although I really don't think stall is particularly great right now. A lot of my wins were due to my opponents being unaware of their wincons or simply not having much experience in the matchup, so while I do think it's pretty great for suspect tests my opinions on it in tour use remains skeptical.

As for Urshifu, it was broken in DLC 1 meta and I believe that it's still unhealthy now. I do not enjoy being forced into using Clefable+Toxapex cores on most balances and I think Buzzwole is extremely mediocre, so I hate being forced to use it for this purpose, even if it does have more defensive utility than just answering Urshifu. Wanna say that a very common misconception people have is that stall will be better without Urshifu which I believe is debatable. Stall will be running ClefPex cores regardless, with the option of Ditto to switch into Wicked Blow as well after scouting a move on some teams. I think the main thing Urshifu invalidates is Balance and Bulky Offense structures which are forced into running Fairy+Dark cores if not the standard ClefPex, or stuff like Buzzwole which I personally find to be clunky and awkward to fit onto teams.

The mon itself is absurd and most games I find my best way of handling it is chipping it down with Rocky Helmet or just simply predicting correctly, which I think is extremely annoying and uncompetitive. I've toyed around with a few sets myself and apart from the notorious CB set, Scarf and BU Life Orb sets are just as potent. I've even had some success running Metronome Urshifu as seen in this replay for a tour game
252+ Atk Urshifu Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%)
252+ Atk Metronome Urshifu Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%)
So yeah, not gonna say too much here, we all know Wicked Blow rolls at this point and have been forced into Sucker Punch mindgames as well. It's ridiculously strong and invalidates a good chunk of defensive cores. I will be voting BAN.
 
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Alright, time to share my thoughts on Urshifu-SS :Urshifu:

From a power standpoint, this mon is Amazing, and bad at the same time, Amazing because it destroys a great portion of the meta-game (130 Atk + Guaranteed Crit on Wicked Blow + Immune to Future Sight + Good Movepool + Great STABs+ this mon giving the meta-game Kung-flu ) and bad because the few good checks harasses Urshifu a lot (Almost every Fairy in OU) although that sounds like an Unhealthy mon now thinking about it), it is kind of hard to switch in safely, and while the speed-tier is good, it's not the best

From a centralization standpoint, this mon is too much for the metagame, there's almost no slightly good counters, and Sucker Punch with Wicked Blow is already asking a lot for the metagame, then the following moves; Close Combat, U-turn, Iron Head, Poison Jab, Drain Punch, Bulk Up, Ice Punch, (and other moves that weren't mentioned) really makes Urshifu Broken, Bulk up in particular makes Urshifu a really hard mon to wall, and one bulk up gives the same attack as choice band :Choice band:, It really makes good Defense Cores look like a joke, and for counter-play...I don't have anything, I'm only using urshifu to destroy urshifu, and that's the definition of unhealthy, sure, you could use Moltres or Zapdos to Cripple it, but it is far from being Reliable, and is also far from bulking off Wicked Blow Spam; finally this mon can't be crippled by Prankster, so that really shows it's too powerful for the tier

Honestly, it's a pretty fun mon to destroy those annoying walls with Urshifu, but I'll admit, it's broken, so...
I'm gonna vote: BAN
 
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Alright, time to share my thoughts on Urshifu-SS :Urshifu:

From a power standpoint, this mon is Amazing, and bad at the same time, Amazing because it destroys a great portion of the meta-game (110 Atk + Guaranteed Crit on Wicked Blow + Immune to Future Sight + Good Movepool + Great STABs+ this mon giving the meta-game Kung-flu ) and bad because the few good checks harasses Urshifu a lot (Almost every Fairy in OU) although that sounds like an Unhealthy mon now thinking about it), it is kind of hard to switch in safely, and while the speed-tier is good, it's not the best

From a centralization standpoint, this mon is too much for the metagame, there's almost no slightly good counters, and Sucker Punch with Wicked Blow is already asking a lot for the metagame, then the following moves; Close Combat, U-turn, Iron Head, Poison Jab, Drain Punch, Bulk Up, Ice Punch, (and other moves that weren't mentioned) really makes Urshifu Broken, Bulk up in particular makes Urshifu a really hard mon to wall, and one bulk up gives the same attack as choice band :Choice band:, It really makes good Defense Cores look like a joke, and for counter-play...I don't have anything, I'm only using urshifu to destroy urshifu, and that's the definition of unhealthy, sure, you could use Moltres or Zapdos to Cripple it, but it is far from being Reliable, and is also far from bulking off Wicked Blow Spam; finally this mon can't be crippled by Prankster, so that really shows it's too powerful for the tier

Honestly, it's a pretty fun mon to destroy those annoying walls with Urshifu, but I'll admit, it's broken, so...
I'm gonna vote: BAN
Good post but urshifu has 130 attack, not 110
 
I'm definitely not the best showdown player, but I play a lot and digest a lot of content. I do believe Urshifu needs to be banned, but maybe not for the reason you expect. Hes obviously one of the most broken mons, but what adds to this is that he is so braindead to use. He takes no skill, as long as your smart enough to know a fairy type is coming in you can work around it and kill everyhting else. I definitely believe he should be banned, if any pokemon single handily changes the meta i think it should atleast be looked into.
 
Personally my favorite counter to urshifu is urshifu just win the speed tie and if not click (x) ezpz
I love it. You never actually need to lose to Urshifu if you lose to the x button.

No but for real we all understand we need to ban broken bear it centralizes the meta too much. If you're conflicted just understand that Urshifu is the reason why Clefable is so common at the moment. When your only viable option is to run Clef to check Urshifu it's not a matter of liking stall, its a matter of not liking to lose.
 
By proactive play I meant doing things like having Taunt for the Slowbro's Teleport, or maintaining your momentum in such a way that the slow turner cannot come in and do its thing. I was alluding to the fact that Urshifu is best when it's in on a mon that it kills, and it tends to be very bad otherwise. Other options for proactive play include maintaining a Toxic Spike or switching in an Urshifu check to the pivoting move so they're forced to go into a mon that your team can deal with better. In essence I meant doing anything that doesn't simply allow the opponent to execute their gameplan of pivoting into Urshifu and scoring an easy kill.
Aside from the fact that this is pretty much saying "use an offense team" (which I would consider grounds for a ban on account of constricting teambuilding), I would point out that vanilla Slowbro and Slowking can have Oblivious as an ability, which renders Taunt useless.
As far as checks that aren't playing a Buzzwole or something, I've played a Tangrowth + Pex with helmets and switched back and forth to chip it down and I've played just one of those with a Tapu Fini, which can eat one Future Sight + Wicked Blow. All of these have been mentioned above. Yes, if your team has nothing that can take a Wicked Blow and do something afterwards then Urshifu will be trouble; I agree that it is slightly limiting. Most good pokemon limit your opponent's options in some way shape or form. Unlike some mons (Pheromosa, Spectrier, and Garchomp being ones that spring to mind), the price of not having a switch in is that you lose a mon and put in something that has a reasonably powerful special move to force out Urshifu, and not that you lose the game on the spot. Sometimes they play Bulk Up, but the setup version lacks a lot of the oomph of comparable setup sweepers in the tier in my opinion, and I've found it easier to deal with.
The trouble is that Rocky Helmets can be knocked off, and Tapu Fini, as stated earlier, has no recovery. And this is ignoring whatever inconveniences hazards cause for you. Also, forcing Urshifu out doesn't take care of it - it's still free to terrorize you later. Are you sure that whatever you think will hold it off will still be in any condition to do so when it comes in again?
As far as the point on being cleanly swept by Urshifu as opposed to something like Nidoking what I meant was that Urshifu's coverage is much worse than that mon, and I've found myself losing my whole team to Wicked Blow less common than I have to Nidoking's array of moves ones my defensive cores are chipped. Nidoking can also overpower Blissey with Superpower, and Urshifu has very limited ability to overpower the mons that hard counter it (it can never, ever beat Buzzwole in a million years, for example no matter what it does). Nidoking has good cleanup potential, not sweeping, and is harder to find a switch-in to in some ways. In my original post I misspoke on this in particular. If you find this example irrelevant perhaps it is -- feel free to substitute Pheromosa, Cinderace, Spectrier, or whatever your least favorite fast offensive threat with good coverage is here and take up the question again. Or drop the comparison entirely and consider the rest of the argument.
Nidoking has no priority (or to be more accurate, it does, but it can't afford to run it), meaning faster revenge killers can defeat him. Urshifu, on the other hand, has Sucker Punch, meaning any faster Pokemon aren't safe (not to mention most of them either straight up die to it or are nearly dead after one - with Stealth Rock taking care of the "nearly" part). Also, Buzzwole isn't that good in this metagame.
I would add though that posters below me seem to have bypassed the original point that if a mon can only get a kill and then leave it is less good than a mon that can get a kill and then get another and another and another once it is in. This is not irrelevant and I'm sure we've all noticed the difference. A lot of mons that can't switch into Wicked Blow can take one and kill Urshifu back once they're in after Urshifu gets its first kill. It is much harder to find a mon that you can put into something like Cinderace, which has enough raw power and coverage to beat a lot of mons that could check it and requires scouting to play around securely. Urshifu has relatively poor coverage since a lot of the mon's power is tied up in Wicked Blow, which is admittedly an outrageous move. You can feel fairly confident that Urshifu will click Wicked Blow and then do it again and again, unlike other offensive threats which could do a variety of scary things.
It's not like Urshifu is a frail glass cannon that cannot take a hit whatsoever. 100/100 physical bulk is pretty good, and while its special bulk is lacking in comparison, it can still live a hit. And it's not like it'll only be using Wicked Blow either. Most of the better special attackers in the tier cannot OHKO it without boosts or relying on hitting with a move that doesn't have 100 accuracy - and Sucker Punch is still a concern, as well.
I could continue to respond to the reasonable critiques of my post, but in the spirit of proactivity I'll offer my impressions of Urshifu from a teambuilding perspective, since limiting teambuilding options seems to be the sticking point for a lot of Ban voters. Walling or otherwise repelling Urshifu is a challenge that does not require playing a mon that can simply stand in front of it in my experience, and the same cannot be said for other offensive threats. There is no creative counterplay to something like Spectrier -- you just have to have a mon that stands in front of it forever or it'll smash your whole team. There is no creative counterplay to Regieleki -- play a Ground type or accept giant momentum loss anytime it gets into play. You can play good mons like Toxapex, Mandibuzz, and Tapu Fini that cover multiple bases to check Urshifu, and if you're completely tired of the pokemon and you want it to never be able to crack you ever, then you have Buzzwole. Yes, Future Sight pressure is extremely strong and can definitely overpower you if you're not ready for it, but I think there are enough options to break it up or interrupt it that I feel comfortable voting No Ban.
Unfortunately, Mandibuzz and Toxapex are extremely passive, and the former is gonna have a bad time if she loses her boots to Knock Off or something, while the latter hates Future Sight, as does Buzzwole. Not to mention that if the former two end up switching into the wrong move (Close Combat for Mandibuzz, Wicked Blow for Toxapex), they're screwed. Tapu Fini is easily chipped down, as it has no recovery aside from Leftovers (and it also fears Poison Jab, which Urshifu frequently runs). If I have to run multiple of these - which I would consider overcentralizing - my matchup against other threats in the tier becomes worse. All this just to STILL not be guaranteed to beat Urshifu.
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Hey again everyone, I want to reiterate that I'm planning on using my vote towards banning Urshifu, but I noticed a lot of hyperbole in some of these posts that I'd like to address. It's fine to not like Urshifu (I don't really like its presence in the tier), but I don't think that it's a good thing to misrepresent or skip over some of the more subtle aspects involved in this suspect test.

No but for real we all understand we need to ban broken bear it centralizes the meta too much. If you're conflicted just understand that Urshifu is the reason why Clefable is so common at the moment. When your only viable option is to run Clef to check Urshifu it's not a matter of liking stall, its a matter of not liking to lose.
Urshifu definitely adds to Clef's viability, but it's not the only reason why Clef is so common. Clef has always been a very common Pokemon over the course of SS due to its wide variety of utility options, Fairy typing, and Magic Guard (and Unaware is also a good ability). If Urshifu is banned, Clef's usage will probably drop a little (at least in the beginning), but I can't imagine Clef ever really falling off and no longer being a common Pokemon in the meta. This isn’t a Seismitoad being one of the most common Pokemon in OU because of Dracovish situations.

Aside from the fact that this is pretty much saying "use an offense team" (which I would consider grounds for a ban on account of constricting teambuilding), I would point out that vanilla Slowbro and Slowking can have Oblivious as an ability, which renders Taunt useless.
Any properly built stall or sturdy balance team should have answers to Urshifu. Now those answers aren’t absolutely foolproof, and the restrictive nature of Urshifu necessitating a handful of options or more niche sets is a big part of why it’s being suspected, but I don’t think that counterplay to Urshifu boils down to “use an offensive team.” I also don’t think that’s what bbears meant when they were talking about playing proactively; I read what they wrote to be more about aggressive positioning, which can really be done with any team structure, and using moves like Toxic Spikes, which aren’t usually found on offense anyway. In fact, I feel like offensive teams can often have a harder time with Urshifu than more defensive teams, because Sucker Punch threatens many faster but frailer Pokemon. Also, Slowbro and Slowking will pretty much never run anything other than Regenerator, so mentioning Oblivious is largely irrelevant.

Urshifu, on the other hand, has Sucker Punch, meaning any faster Pokemon aren't safe (not to mention most of them either straight up die to it or are nearly dead after one - with Stealth Rock taking care of the "nearly" part).
In order for Urshifu to threaten revenge killers with Sucker Punch, it can't be Choice-locked, and the most popular Urshifu set by a wide margin is Choice Band. If it is LO or Black Glasses, Sucker Punch is more threatening (especially if it gets a Bulk Up off), but not having a Choice Band trades some of the immediate nuking power that is big reason why Urshifu is so imposing.

Unfortunately, Mandibuzz and Toxapex are extremely passive, and the former is gonna have a bad time if she loses her boots to Knock Off or something, while the latter hates Future Sight, as does Buzzwole. Not to mention that if the former two end up switching into the wrong move (Close Combat for Mandibuzz, Wicked Blow for Toxapex), they're screwed. Tapu Fini is easily chipped down, as it has no recovery aside from Leftovers (and it also fears Poison Jab, which Urshifu frequently runs). If I have to run multiple of these - which I would consider overcentralizing - my matchup against other threats in the tier becomes worse. All this just to STILL not be guaranteed to beat Urshifu.
I really don't find Toxapex passive, since Knock Off, Toxic/Toxic Spikes, and Scald are all difficult moves to switch into and can force progress. Mandibuzz also isn't as passive if it has Knock Off and if it can get a Defog off with hazards up, that helps your team a lot. What you mentioned about Pex not being able to take Wicked Blows well is true, but it's usually not a big problem against Banded sets, as you can just switch into a Dark resist and get Regenerator recovery to keep Pex pretty healthy. You don't need to necessarily run Pex + Clef, but Pex + a fairly sturdy Dark resist (Mandibuzz, defensive Hydreigon, or even your own Urshifu) should be enough to handle Banded Urshifu (which again, is the most common set, although you can still struggle with Bulk Up variants). Now I agree that Urshifu does limit teambuilding, but if you're expecting to just be able to have one defensive answer completely invalidate one of the most powerful offensive options in the tier, I think that's kind of unreasonable (and even then, Buzzwole is a defensive answer that invalidates Urshifu, although I also agree that Buzzwole isn't particularly valuable otherwise). So in summation, I'm not defending Urshifu - I don't like the Pokemon and I'll probably end up voting ban, but I don't think that it is as completely "broken" as some people make it out to be. I personally believe that Urshifu is more unhealthy than broken, in regards to how it distorts teambuilding and can force more risks in positioning when playing against a team with it, however, I think that is still grounds to vote ban against it. Although that's just my opinion, I wanted to provide a different perspective to some of the other arguments I've seen that attempt to instead just paint Urshifu as a completely broken and flawless Pokemon.
 
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Based off the posts I've seen on here and the fact that you run into that demon almost every other game, I don't see how there's any way this thing doesn't get banned. I'll never get reqs but like.. the only posters who have made an argument to keep it unbanned are either seemingly missing the whole point of what the difference between Urshifu and your standard run of the mill offensive OU threat is.

For one thing, and this really can't be re-iterated enough and I'm not sure how this doesn't stick for many - but it 2hkos the entire meta game with choice band (minus Buzzwole, but we'll get to that). Don't give me any caveats or any techs, in standard OU play this is the case. The only thing Urshifu needs to enable it is to literally get in under any of the following circumstances:
- Against a mon that it is faster than and can OHKO
- Against a mon that it is faster than and can 2HKO, assuming that mon isn't a threat to ohko back or cripple Urshifu w/ status
- Against a mon that it is slower than, can OHKO, but can't be OHKO'd back.
Now you might be thinking, isn't that the case for literally just about any CB mon? Well sure, but the difference is that under most conditions any other CB mon is going to have something on the other team that can effectively wall it **throughout** the game (even libero Cinderace which gets friggin stab on anything can't hold a candle to Urshifu's level of coverage + damage output) and be used as a reliable, consistent check.

With Urshifu alone, that simply does not exist. I mean, shit, even max def. Clef & Fini are still taking 33% from CB wicked blow so it's not like a consistent answer; not to mention that one wrong switch into poison jab and it's GG. And besides, if you're smart in the teambuilder and you're trying to use Urshifu then you've already considered the like 4 options your opponent has for counterplay and have structured your team accordingly. Your opponent doesn't really have any options outside of designed checks/counters since the sheer force of wb/cc will absolutely wreck them, making your opponent locked into extremely predictable and exploitable moves. Note that this is all literally just because Urshifu is in against something it wins against. No other pokemon can come close to single-handedly causing THAT much pressure. There's just no way to match that damage output.

So, you have your max def Clef switch in to a wicked blow, take 33% and then what? You invite in some of Urshifu's most spammable partners (Slow-whatever is the most prominent that comes to mind but there are so many other viable options) to wreak their own havoc until you get another free switch into Urshifu (read: not difficult) and start the cycle all over again. All the while Urshifu alone is ripping off massive chunks of damage to your defensive core and pretty easily maintaining offensive momentum for his team.

Now the greatest part of irony for the keep unbanned folks is the methods that have been presented outside of your staple checks (buzzwole, max def Clef/Fini) is that you are not solving the main problem which is the pressure that Urshifu creates even when it's not in the battle. So congrats, you switched in your body press Hawlucha crap against Urshifu, great job! How exactly is that going to deal with Slowbro any better than Urshifu's standard "checks"? And what happens if your opponent doesn't have Urshifu - you're just effectively playing 5 v 6 then? It's nonsense.

If the best you can come up with to properly check a mon is something that is so focused on checking that specific mon that it is completely and utterly out-classed when not matched up against that mon, it's not an answer. Especially since I don't see how any of these proposed solutions effectively deal with any common Urshifu partners; that is an absolute necessity for true counter-play, otherwise you are still losing momentum.

So that all ties back to the crippling effect Urshifu has on teambuilding. Simply by virtue of getting on the field, Urshifu can more or less single-handedly funnel your opponent into essentially making just 1 or 2 plays just to avoid losing a mon straight up! This limited counter-play means you can easily build your team to take advantage of those "checks", making it incredibly easy to retain momentum and put your opponent in a position where they are one or two bad plays from straight up losing. The mon is broken, it's very obvious, and I will be glad to see it banned.
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Based off the posts I've seen on here and the fact that you run into that demon almost every other game, I don't see how there's any way this thing doesn't get banned. I'll never get reqs but like.. the only posters who have made an argument to keep it unbanned are either seemingly missing the whole point of what the difference between Urshifu and your standard run of the mill offensive OU threat is.

For one thing, and this really can't be re-iterated enough and I'm not sure how this doesn't stick for many - but it 2hkos the entire meta game with choice band (minus Buzzwole, but we'll get to that). Don't give me any caveats or any techs, in standard OU play this is the case. The only thing Urshifu needs to enable it is to literally get in under any of the following circumstances:
- Against a mon that it is faster than and can OHKO
- Against a mon that it is faster than and can 2HKO, assuming that mon isn't a threat to ohko back or cripple Urshifu w/ status
- Against a mon that it is slower than, can OHKO, but can't be OHKO'd back.
Now you might be thinking, isn't that the case for literally just about any CB mon? Well sure, but the difference is that under most conditions any other CB mon is going to have something on the other team that can effectively wall it **throughout** the game (even libero Cinderace which gets friggin stab on anything can't hold a candle to Urshifu's level of coverage + damage output) and be used as a reliable, consistent check.

With Urshifu alone, that simply does not exist. I mean, shit, even max def. Clef & Fini are still taking 33% from CB wicked blow so it's not like a consistent answer; not to mention that one wrong switch into poison jab and it's GG. And besides, if you're smart in the teambuilder and you're trying to use Urshifu then you've already considered the like 4 options your opponent has for counterplay and have structured your team accordingly. Your opponent doesn't really have any options outside of designed checks/counters since the sheer force of wb/cc will absolutely wreck them, making your opponent locked into extremely predictable and exploitable moves. Note that this is all literally just because Urshifu is in against something it wins against. No other pokemon can come close to single-handedly causing THAT much pressure. There's just no way to match that damage output.

So, you have your max def Clef switch in to a wicked blow, take 33% and then what? You invite in some of Urshifu's most spammable partners (Slow-whatever is the most prominent that comes to mind but there are so many other viable options) to wreak their own havoc until you get another free switch into Urshifu (read: not difficult) and start the cycle all over again. All the while Urshifu alone is ripping off massive chunks of damage to your defensive core and pretty easily maintaining offensive momentum for his team.

Now the greatest part of irony for the keep unbanned folks is the methods that have been presented outside of your staple checks (buzzwole, max def Clef/Fini) is that you are not solving the main problem which is the pressure that Urshifu creates even when it's not in the battle. So congrats, you switched in your body press Hawlucha crap against Urshifu, great job! How exactly is that going to deal with Slowbro any better than Urshifu's standard "checks"? And what happens if your opponent doesn't have Urshifu - you're just effectively playing 5 v 6 then? It's nonsense.

If the best you can come up with to properly check a mon is something that is so focused on checking that specific mon that it is completely and utterly out-classed when not matched up against that mon, it's not an answer. Especially since I don't see how any of these proposed solutions effectively deal with any common Urshifu partners; that is an absolute necessity for true counter-play, otherwise you are still losing momentum.

So that all ties back to the crippling effect Urshifu has on teambuilding. Simply by virtue of getting on the field, Urshifu can more or less single-handedly funnel your opponent into essentially making just 1 or 2 plays just to avoid losing a mon straight up! This limited counter-play means you can easily build your team to take advantage of those "checks", making it incredibly easy to retain momentum and put your opponent in a position where they are one or two bad plays from straight up losing. The mon is broken, it's very obvious, and I will be glad to see it banned.
I don't really want to keep posting in this thread, but again, I think that this overstates CB Urshifu a little. Choice Band Urshifu can't really do anything against Pex or Tangrowth (both of which are usually Rocky Helmet) + a Dark resist (Tangrowth kind of needs a Fighting resist or immunity to be paired with as well), or even a team with both Pex and Tangrowth with Helmets. Now the Regenerator + pivot strategy loses to Bulk Up Urshifu, unless the Dark resist you're using alongside your Regenerator Pokemon is a Fairy like Clef or Fini, since the Bulk Up set rarely carries Poison Jab (it's usually Bulk Up/Wicked Blow/CC/Sucker Punch). Now even if you have something like Pex + Clef, you can struggle with Urshifu + Future Sight. This leads to needing to position yourself more aggressively against Slowbro/Slowking to prevent it from getting off a Future Sight and then Teleporting into something that Urshifu threatens, but as I mentioned in my previous posts, doing so opens yourself up to possibly getting something crippled by Scald (or the rarer T-Wave) as you switch into Slowbro. A 4 attacks + LO set can also be threatening to a team with Pex + Clef, but that set gets chipped down quickly by Rocky Helmet + LO damage, and it will require the Urshifu user to predict well to break through Clef + Pex, which detracts from the "braindead" narrative that people like to ascribe to Urshifu; as an aside, I think it's kind of funny how people call Urshifu "braindead" but then say things like "all you need to do is predict what they switch to."

So again, I feel like the problem with Urshifu is not that you can't prepare for or play around it - it's that Urshifu restricts building and forces you to take awkward positioning risks when playing against it. It's hard to build a team that's prepared for both CB and Bulk Up variants, and regardless of how well prepared you are in the builder, you'll need to position yourself aggressively (and this is where the "awkward positioning risks" arise) against a team with Slowbro/Slowking + Urshifu. Personally, this is how I feel like the Urshifu debate should be framed - not about how "broken" Urshifu is and how it sweeps through entire teams (no offense to anyone, but I don't really think that should happen much unless you're using a team that isn't prepared well for Urshifu or you misplay), but rather about what it means to build a team that is "prepared well" for Urshifu, and what it means to "play well" against Urshifu. I feel like an argument focused on this, how Urshifu forces you to build and also play in certain ways, is much more convincing than just talking about how unwallable Urshifu is; it may just be me, but I find that kind of overblown. Again though, I did get reqs and I am probably going to vote ban, but for the reasons that I just mentioned, not because I feel like Urshifu is an overly dominate force in the meta (I would possibly buy "overly centralizing," however). Those are just my thoughts though, and I respect everyone else's, but I'm probably going to stop trying to steer the discussion away from "Urshifu is broken because Wicked Blow/CC kills everything" now.
 
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i've never found it to be uncounterable, i just think we need to get more creative. what if we used grimmsnarl to setup reflect, then used magearna or something to finish it off? maybe something that's immune to crits like Escavalier? it could tank a wicked blow, then fire off a close combat. falinks would also be good for this, as it resists dark and has stab on fighting moves. galarian weezing could work well, as it resists dark, quad resists fighting, and isn't weak to poison or fire. give it a babiri berry to bait urshi into staying in (it might have iron head after all), then fire off a dazzling gleam or a strange steam to take it out. we could switch it in safely by baiting urshifu to switch into a slowbro with future sight or something. maybe a hydreigon with superpower? i dunno, i'm just listing half-baked ideas at this point.

bottom line, i think more experienced players should try to flesh out my ideas into something more refined. and if we find a combo that works, we can just keep using it until urshifu eventually falls to uu. (bit of a stretch, i know, but a man can dream.)
 
i've never found it to be uncounterable, i just think we need to get more creative. what if we used grimmsnarl to setup reflect, then used magearna or something to finish it off? maybe something that's immune to crits like Escavalier? it could tank a wicked blow, then fire off a close combat. falinks would also be good for this, as it resists dark and has stab on fighting moves. galarian weezing could work well, as it resists dark, quad resists fighting, and isn't weak to poison or fire. give it a babiri berry to bait urshi into staying in (it might have iron head after all), then fire off a dazzling gleam or a strange steam to take it out. we could switch it in safely by baiting urshifu to switch into a slowbro with future sight or something. maybe a hydreigon with superpower? i dunno, i'm just listing half-baked ideas at this point.

bottom line, i think more experienced players should try to flesh out my ideas into something more refined. and if we find a combo that works, we can just keep using it until urshifu eventually falls to uu. (bit of a stretch, i know, but a man can dream.)

For the first one, you're basically telling people to use screens Grimmsnarl hyper offense with Magearna to deal with Urshifu. Both of them also don't resist fighting and therefore cannot switch into Banded CC, which will one shot Grimmsnarl and 2HKO Magearna.

Also, Reflect does not protect from the full damage of a critical hit, so Wicked Blow would still do it's original damage anyways.

Escavalier cannot switch into a Banded or Life Orb CC safely even if it is maximum defense, because it is a guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rocks in the picture. It also lacks recovery. Here's a calc demonstrating the damage a Life Orb Jolly Urshifu does with Close Combat.

252 Atk Life Orb Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Escavalier: 177-211 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Galarian Weezing is used occasionally as an Urshifu switch in, but it completely lacks recovery outside of the unreliable Pain Split. Running Babiri Berry only makes things even worse against basically anything that is not an Iron Head Urshifu, as it will sorely miss out on the Black Sludge recovery it desperately relies on to maintain it's health, as Wicked Blow does a significant amount to a Pokemon with no natural recovery.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 93-111 (27.8 - 33.2%) -- 92.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

This calc is also factoring in your suggestion of running Babiri Berry and not Black Sludge which makes it last longer.

Also, Babiri Berry is a one time item, so if it hits you with an Iron Head on the switch, you lose your item. And in a one on one situation, no Urshifu would ever stay in on a Galarian Weezing anyways unless they are certain you're in range of an attack, which limits the effectiveness as well.

Hydreigon can already outspeed and threaten it immensely with Draco Meteor. Running Superpower definitely does help for Tyranitar and Blissey, however, it comes with serious opportunity cost in the form of split evs, defense hindering nature because you still have to outspeed the Urshifu, and either a more useful special attack like Fire Blast and Earth Power and Flash Cannon, or longevity in Roost.

Also important to note that Hydreigon needs absolute maximum attack and Stealth Rock to have a 50% chance to KO Urshifu after Stealth Rock damage with Superpower and Life Orb, which cuts into it's more effective special attacks substaintially.

252 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 294-346 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Nothing you have stated can actually switch into Urshifu repeatedly, if at all, and nothing outside of HO Screens and MAYBE Superpower Hydreigon on a team struggling with a pink blob has any other significant usefulness in the metagame that is not done by other, better Pokemon and Weezing's case, another, better item.
 
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At this point Urshifu has been discussed to death. The entire thing boils down to the question whether urshifu limits teambuilding in a unhealthy way, meaning that you have to run one of the select few checks available such as certain faries, buzzwhole, pex+Dark resist etc. or on the other hand that while it is a strong presence in the metagame, it cannot one-shot a lot of revenge killers that can serve as an emergency check, it requires some prediction to use effectively and it needs pivoting support against offensive teams. Nevertheless, it is immensely difficult to play around when it is used in conjunction with Slowtwins which are very easy to use due to regerator and the fact that they can switch into many common utility mons. I personally believe that with some creativity in teambuilder and in the game itself it is not too difficult to prevent urshifu from consistently switching in and claiming a kill. The issue is with fat and balanced cores that cannot afford to run as many offensive checks and revenge killers and are forced to rely solely on its defensive backbone to handle it which means they are forced to employ the same structures over and over again which makes the metagame very stale and honestly boring. I am still on the fence about Urshifu in general as it's not the most powerful mon we have ever seen and yet with the right support it is undeniably problematic.
 
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Let me paint a picture. You lead into an opposing urshifu, or your opponent has double switched into urshifu as you did the same. What matteres is that both of your pokemon are at 100% and have unrevealed sets.

If the pokemon I have out is :barraskewda: :blissey: :corviknight: :excadrill: :ferrothorn: :heatran: :hippowdon: :latios: :mandibuzz: :melmetal: :moltres: :nidoking: :pelipper: :rillaboom: :slowbro: :slowking: :slowking-galar: :tapu-lele: :swampert: :toxapex: :tyranitar: I'm switching out (might have some of these wrong like pex but eh). And while some mons like tapu-lele can stay in if they're scarfed, many other non OU but OU viable mons are also threatened out in the 1v1, and some mons like dragapult can only situationally stay in if they are a certain (usually uncommon) set.

That being said, this is not why urshifu is broken. Some of these mons can only be beat by the combination of sucker punch after a wicked blow, which cannot be done by band variants, and man others can only be OHKOed by band's power. Obviously the opposing shifu cannot be both. And even with all this considered, this list is honestly not that big. I imagine something like cinderace has an even larger list of pokes it 1v1s.

Instead of being the reason that urshifu is broken, this list serves to illustrate urshifu's "switch-in" opportunities after a pivot move or death, the prior of which is super common in this metagame. And while its rare a team will have even 3 mons urshifu 1v1's, almost every team runs one or two of these pokemon, so it never lacks opportunity. And switch in opportunity is all urshifu needs. So why is urshifu broken but cinderace palatable?

Well, because every mon in OU (besides buzzwole) fears a 2hko on the switch from STANDARD band (no need for weird techs even). Even fini and clef.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 172-204 (50 - 59.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So while urshifu 1v1's a relatively tame portion of the meta, the fact is that switching into it is entirely prediction (which is essentially luck imo). And if your team structure lacks a fairy, which at least require a hard read to poison jab to 2hko, your team will struggle immensely to even pivot around the demon because many pokemon urshifu threatens die to either CC or wicked blow (think hippowdon at low HP). So unlike other mons which are obliged to go for one move to kill the enemy, urshifu can often use either meaning staying in = losting a pokemon, and there is no obvious answer to which 120 BP stab move urshifu is going to click. No fairy = 50/50 in this situation. And even fini really struggles with LO 4 attacks (underrated set, pretty bad against mandipex cores but slaughters defensive cores found more offense oriented teams), so slapping on a "counter" only is really good in some situations.

My reasoning for banning is not because urshifu is impossible to handle, because its not. It just requires too much care in the teambuilder, and a sufficiently good prediction game that is more luck based than average.
 
So I've had some strange success (I'm pretty low on the ladder so take this with a grain of salt) by countering with pelipper on my rain team. It usually kills one of my mons' first, but pelipper seems to take no more than about 40% then kills it with hurricane, since it cant miss due to rain. Anyone have thoughts on whether this is actually a viable strategy or just multiple flukes?
 
So I've had some strange success (I'm pretty low on the ladder so take this with a grain of salt) by countering with pelipper on my rain team. It usually kills one of my mons' first, but pelipper seems to take no more than about 40% then kills it with hurricane, since it cant miss due to rain. Anyone have thoughts on whether this is actually a viable strategy or just multiple flukes?
Yes, but only if you know Urshifu is CB and locked into CC. However, as you mentioned Urshifu has already killed a mon on your team. This is not even to mention the fact that Urshifu does not always run CC. For example, here is a black glasses calc:
252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper on a critical hit: 186-220 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also since you are low ladder, people are not great when it comes to switching. When you get higher on the ladder no good player will leave their Urshifu in on a Peliper. Hope this helped :)
 
You could also bring Amoongus or Tangrowth with rocky helmet...

There is also Magerena
Amoonguss Tangrowth and Magearna do not resist the STAB Combination and are not good consistent switch ins

Here are calcs showing the damage if they are running absolute maximum defense

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss on a critical hit: 264-312 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth on a critical hit: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 193-228 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Amoonguss is straight up flattened, Tangrowth can only temporarily scout and will be overwhelmed, and Magearna is also flattened but can't recover it's HP reliably unlike these two.

At this point you are listing defensive counterplay that does not consistently work against Urshifu, except Tangrowth in some situations, and whatever support it may be provided with, such as Future Sight (which invalidates the mushroom and tangrowth as Urshifu answers hard) and more widespread support like entry hazards.
 
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I agree it's just to breaindead to use.

Just spam wicked blow and blow sh#t up. It's faster than most it's checks so even if it resists wicked blow, it still gets wrecked by poison jab, aerial ace or close combat.

Let's not forget it can bait counters with u-turn and proceed to let something in that can set-up and steamroll your whole team.

The fear is always banning something lets something else broken to rise but honestly, who is it keeping down? Spectrier? Spectrier loses to normal types. So that argument doesn't hold much water.

I see no reason to do anything but ban this dark destroyer.
 
Hi, I'll keep this short and say that I am voting ban.
Urshifu already has incredible power by itself - it hits remarkably hard with both its STABS from CC and Wicked Blow, it then has Poison Jab coverage to hit the fairies that resist both of the aforementioned moves.
However, it gets even stronger when used correctly with the right team members. To take the most obvious example, a Future Sight into Teleport out into Urshifu sets up KOs with tremendous consistency. It has a reasonable number of set options that can be used according to what the team needs - CB may be the most common set, but if you want to be able to switch up moves to make better use of Sucker Punch, BU or 4 attacks will be able to provide that.
Strong breakers are generally a good thing for a tier, but Urshifu is too strong and is too difficult to respond to. Like Finch mentioned, Urshifu has been dominating the tier for a long time, and I think this is because Urshifu is just so consistent in what it does. For those reasons I will be voting to get rid of it.
 
I would like to explain why Urshifu is unhealthy for the metagame and why it deserves the ban hammer with counter-arguments to the arguments against the ban

1: “If other breakers are as hard to switch into as Urshifu why aren’t they broken?”

Urshifu has traits that differentiate it from other breakers. Issues that alot of breakers in the tier face are usually “too slow”, “prediction reliant”, “frail”, easy to wear down”, “mediocre mu vs HO”, etc. Urshifu is a breaker without many of these flaws. 97 speed doesn’t make it a speed demon or anything but it gets the jump on max speed Lando, Lele, Kyurem, Drill, and Rilla, not to mention it has priority Sucker Punch. Wicked Blow and Close Combat are incredibly spammable due to Dark/Fighting only being walled by fairies which are hit by Pjab. Urshifu isn’t super bulky but 100/100/60 defenses lets it take one or two physical hits and one special hit, not to mention it can sustain itself longer than most breakers due to taking very little from rocks, so by the time it has been chipped down your team would’ve been broken down already. Offensive teams have trouble switching into Urshifu’s stabs, and they have trouble dancing around Sucker Punch.

2: “Just use x mon it’s not broken.”

There are some players who associate unhealthy with having no counters. What actually determines if a mon is broken is something that ties up the metagame with a rope to prevent it from moving forward if you get the metaphor. A good example of this is Dracovish. The main answers to Vish were mons with Water Absorb/Storm Drain. If Vish had counters then why was it banned? It restricted the metagame into a box where it was basically ClefCorvToad on every team due to the fact that Vish forced players to run Toad or get 6-0d by it. Same case with Urshifu. Since it has no true counters other than Buzzwole and G-Weezing, teams are forced to run the combination of bulky regen pivot + Clef/Fini, Pex + Mandi, or Pex + Dark resist. The counterplay gets severely thrown out of window once we look at sets other than Band like BU or Four Attacks which limits your counterplay to don’t let Clef/Fini get hit by PJab on the switch. As for Buzz and G-Weezing, if Urshifu is paired with Slowbro, their ability to counter Urshifu becomes obsolete.

To sum it up, Urshifu is a polarizing force in the metagame that is low risk and incredibly high reward, forces 50/50s, depletes freedom in teambuilding due to little counterplay, and puts the metagame in a stalemate.
 
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