Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Pabloaram]

Hey OU...
The posible ban of urshifu gonna make Protect Great Again. Before this thing come to existence Protect was a nice move and key in WishPort Cleafable playstyle.
This gonna make Balance great again also....

 

[Yuy]

I think that's fair, but the increased ease of pivoting stuff in via Teleport, especially in conjunction with Future Sight, make it easier than before to deal with Pex since there's more ways to bring in breakers vs Pex that avoid taking a Knock Off or Scald on the switch in.

Mind you, if the remaining potentially-busteds (Mag, Spectrier for sure will be suspected at some point IMO) leave, Pex might prove to be unhealthy (if not broken) and warrant a suspect.

Teleporting a mon in for Pex and Pex switching out hurts the switch in but helps Pex with regen doesn't it? And your second thought "Pex isn't a suspect because there are other busted mons in the tier" isn't helping your argument much either. Not that I have a prob with pex or even mentioned it, but your second thought is pretty revealing.
Anyway, recently I was thinking Offense is going to run out of tools before Defense in terms of optimization. Defensive mons can keep re optimizing their spreads as the threat list gets reduced by bans and offensive mons have more or less shown all of their cards already. I wonder which defensive mons are going to drastically change their spreads or how defense is going to re optimize after the next ban.

 

[PlusC]

If a Pex suspect test were to happen I almost feel it needs to be backwards; ban it for a week or 2 so people can experience the meta without it and see if team building really is freed up by it's absence as much as some folk claim it would be.

 

[Sabbio]

Teleporting a mon in for Pex and Pex switching out hurts the switch in but helps Pex with regen doesn't it? And your second thought "Pex isn't a suspect because there are other busted mons in the tier" isn't helping your argument much either. Not that I have a prob with pex or even mentioned it, but your second thought is pretty revealing.
Anyway, recently I was thinking Offense is going to run out of tools before Defense in terms of optimization. Defensive mons can keep re optimizing their spreads as the threat list gets reduced by bans and offensive mons have more or less shown all of their cards already. I wonder which defensive mons are going to drastically change their spreads or how defense is going to re optimize after the next ban.

Banning Urshifu actually lets Offense have much more breathing room. Orb Urshifu destroys a lot of them just by virtue of LO Sucker Punch doing even 38% to resists you may find in offense like Koko.
To not be Urshifu weak you have to run Balance or Bulky offense. You have to use mons that drain you momentum, like Fini, Clef and Buzz, and in turn make you weak to other common teammates you may commonly find on Urshifu's side, like Spectrier, Nido, Mage or Ace.
It's never about just Urshifu, but Urshifu + some breaker, that makes it as dumb as it is and forcing teambuilding into bulkier teams.
If Urshifu is gone, breakers below its speed tier that get OHKO'd (or close to being) by its stabs become much more viable. If anything, Urshifu getting banned is better for Offense, just like it is for Mosa not forcing you to use 2 mons just to check it.

 

[AM]

You have to use momentum sappers to handle Cinderace, Spectrier and Magearna as well on bulkier builds, don't think this only applies to just Urshifu. Ursh more unhealthy than flat out broken because of some of the 50/50 toss up it applies in games, which is a better reason for the boot than implying it's totally broken unlike Magearna. It's large constraint is there but it's been overblown the past couple of weeks and the other 3 mentioned invalidate most of the bulkier options for Urshifu anyways. There's not a point where Ursh will ever really snowball out of control and the Ursh checks are for the most part the same for every variant. The 3 mentioned below can change the dynamics required to handle them based on the variant faced. This isn't to say Ursh shouldn't get the boot but Cinderace arguably a worse pain for Offense because of boots negating hazards and higher speed tier and it only has one good consistent defensive check in Toxapex for the bulkier builds (outside of Electro Ball meme ). Bro, Molt, Zap insert non Pex check susceptible to poison chances due to Gunk and in some cases Adamant Ace can also change how you have to deal with it.

 

[TURBODERP]

And your second thought "Pex isn't a suspect because there are other busted mons in the tier" isn't helping your argument much either. Not that I have a prob with pex or even mentioned it, but your second thought is pretty revealing.

I didn't make the claim that Pex isn't busted because there are other busted mons, which is a bad argument I agree. I was talking about the general idea that Pex is too hard to break right now, when all of the potentially-busted mons I listed and more have ways to break past it fairly consistently.

 

[theotherguytm]

Anyway, recently I was thinking Offense is going to run out of tools before Defense in terms of optimization. Defensive mons can keep re optimizing their spreads as the threat list gets reduced by bans and offensive mons have more or less shown all of their cards already.

Clefable used Copycat!
Clefable used Final Gambit!
Yeah, all the cards have been shown. No room for creativity left. Never mind that things like Dracozolt, Aegislash, Mixed Kyurem, and Dragonite exist that can chop and change their sets to break through any of their answers you like. And that's without going into the broken duo of Magearna and Cinderace that can pick and choose their answers at will.

Offense inherently has more options than defence. If you don't believe me, then find me a defensive mon in UUBL. That's kinda why stall sucks atm. It's impossible to build a stall team which competently handles all the breakers available in the tier (it was like this even back in WishPort meta: the most broken part of WishPort was the extra longevity it gave to breakers without recovery, not walls that had recovery anyway.) And that's without taking into account offence playstyles like Screens/Veil, Rain, Spikes spam and straightforward setup spam. Not to mention lesser used playstyles like Trick Room, Terrain offense, Sun and Hail, Webs, bulky playstyles like Sand, VoltTurn, and more.

Anyway, as for Pex, it was broken in old Gen 8 metas because not enough things switched into it consistently over a game and beat it. Now tons of things switch into it consistently over a game and beat it, so it's not broken. Simple.

 

[RufflesPro]

I know the meta is kinda stale rn and everybody is kinda just waiting for Urshifu to be banned, but I've been using quite a fun mon to great success and I wanted to share it here.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Aura Sphere
- Psyshock​

I noticed while playing the meta that most balanced teams right now have their steel type check in terms of Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Zapdos, Moltres, and Toxapex. Furthermore, a lot of people are being really greedy and running Zapdos without Heat Wave, or Slowbro without status or coverage, or Ferrothorn with only 1 offensive move. Seeking to exploit that, I made up this set to use these consistent patterns and turn them into set up bait with SubCM Jirachi, and built a team around it. The result actually exceeded my expectations a lot and this gimmick turned into a real wincon more often than not.

The idea is to set up a sub as the opponent switches to their or . After 1 CM, Scald and Volt Switch/Discharge do not break sub, and the opponent is left with a +1 Jirachi behind a sub to try and figure out how to deal with it. I paired it up with Slowbro so that Slowbro can spread burns with Scald, as most defensive pokemons like Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and Tornadus-T can't break Jirachi's sub with Knock off after a burn.

Jirachi's base 100 speed is also actually really good in the meta, as it outspeeds important threats such as Urshifu, Hydreigon, Kyurem, and Nidoking. I can't tell you how many times I got free kill on a Nidoking or an Urshifu because the opponent thought they would outspeed.The coverage of Psyshock + Aura Sphere is surprisingly good and can actually end a lot of balance teams that aren't lucky enough to have a Mandibuzz or a Heatran. +1 Aura Sphere OHKOs Urshifu, 2HKOs Hydreigon and Tyranitar, and has a good chance of OHKO-ing Excadrill after a very small chip.

This set will not be able sweep teams after 1 CM, but once it sets up behind a sub, it can easily get 2-3 Calm Minds or just fire off multiple +1 attacks to slowly chip down the enemy team, and it becomes excessively hard to beat unless you have multiple things to outspeed it, which is actually rare in the meta right now.

Notable calcs

0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 70-84 (20.5 - 24.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 58-69 (17 - 20.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk burned Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 67-79 (19.6 - 23.1%) -- possible 9HKO after Leech Seed recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 63-75 (18.4 - 21.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

+1 252 SpA Jirachi Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 328-388 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Once I started using this set, I was surprised how this set can take unprepared teams by surprise and sweep, and was more surprised that it can successfully, with the right support, chip down even really well made balance. But what was the MOST surprising is that it can actually use and dual dance as set up bait, due to the bulk, natural typing, and Psyshock. I'm not talking about 1v1-ing them, I mean Jirachi can switch into them while they set up and still beat them with ease despite being one or even multiple turns behind in tempo.

Notable calcs

+6 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (320 BP) vs. +5 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 109-128 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+5 252 SpA Jirachi Psyshock vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 169-199 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. +3 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 94-112 (27.5 - 32.8%) -- 81% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 SpA Jirachi Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 241-285 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

To be honest, I wasn't going to post this set here because I was trying to get #1 on the ladder and post an RMT, but the team I had was too weak to stall and Kyurem and there's too many stall in high ladder for me to care enough to change the team. Plus everyone up there already has seen this set multiple times which sucks because this set definitely has some surprise factor. Highest I got is #38 and I also got reqs so I guess I'll settle for that. So because I was going to post an rmt, I took an extensive amount of replays. So just pick and choose whatever you want to see.

Replays:

Jirachi reverse sweeping

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1249435339-hjm12gdhxno4ccionsofhtkun8dppoypw - Jirachi using Suicune as set up bait
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1250770495-5aqy1m3zm6ecllds9kssydr26ooi2zjpw - Jirachi uses Suicune as set up bait #2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1249448840 - Great example of how Jirachi uses opponent setting up to his advantage. Twice
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1251066897-5lwxev3qsdmhljsvj1lz0knojzrkuycpw - Perfect example of how well Jirachi does into Magearna
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1251376821-d6ubda53ykwiy9jofa0rt2vp304orqapw - Jirachi beaiting CM/SG Magearna
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1251349302-i2clha41umh9kv5i31wlbttatbdknolpw - Jirachi beating CM/Iron Defense mag

SubCM Jirachi sweeping/breaking balance

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1251379045-6ifhy1dqu6zp5esgr6b10fqszsn2z7rpw - Nido/Shifu balance destroyed by Rachi, Tox/Clef/Zapdos are set up bait
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1248759657 - Jirachi breaking a solid balance using Zapdos to set up
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1250155021 - SubCM Jirachi sweeps sand
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1250154786 - A burn on Ferrothorn turns into a sweep vs. common balance
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1251068078-jioajab0xrqa5u2aeaxwi6v75yuic4jpw - SubCM Jirachi completely taking over
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1251302167-wjla4ll1evfumxmdntubntsc4tefayhpw - Using Tornadus-T as set up bait

SubCM Jirachi slowly breaking down well made balance

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1249455867 - Great game with great doubles. SubCM Jirachi slowly breaking opposing team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1251065398-rtip41e6yvqkrss9dj8el4anxqoblj5pw - Jirachi beating unprepared SemiStall
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1248604668 - Opponent makes one mistake and gets swept, despite being in the lead

Its main counters are , these 2 need to be weakened for Jirachi to get through them, but if they're status'd they can be set-up fodder. SpD will also stop you as it doesn't take much from Aura Sphere, but it can be weakened throughout the match with hazards, teammates, knock offs, and Jirachi himself. Another weird counter is the combination of teleport mon + fast u-turn-er that can break sub aka and scarf , but it only works if your opponent knows what this Jirachi set does. More often that not they already lost a mon or two before figuring it out. Also with Infiltrator will stop your sweep unless you have multiple CM already set up, so make sure you don't reveal your set early vs. a Dragapult.

Tl;dr: what started off as a gimmick to take advantage of greedy teambuilding ended being a surprisingly decent mon. Of course, it's outclassed by Magearna for the most part and it needs a decent amount of support, but it has its unique niches of being able to outspeed the majority of wallbreakers, and beat most CM users 1v1 and potentially reverse sweep. It's also good vs. Magearna HO :D. I wouldn't recommend it in high high ladder like 1850+, but below that it should be surprisingly good at breaking balance and punishing slow wallbreakers.

 

[gglrg]

For the shift tommorow, is there anything likely to fall to uu or lose some usage, or the opposite and mons maybe rising or increasing more in usage????

 

[CadmusRhodium]

For the shift tommorow, is there anything likely to fall to uu or lose some usage, or the opposite and mons maybe rising or increasing more in usage????

People are starting to realize that Buzzwole isn’t that great outside of countering Urshifu and a few other things that aren’t important because Urshifu is the biggest problem by far, as despite what its 139 base attack would suggest, it’s pretty passive and drags your momentum a lot. And Latios was *this* close to falling last month, so there’s a good chance UU will be suffering quite a bit this January.

 

[Red Raven]

I honestly just use Buzzwole for inflicting some chip damage these days. I mean, being safe from both Urshifu and sd Garchomp is nice but it really is passive. I literally put in max hp and max attack with substitute on my Buzzwole as a stupid ev spread joke and it somehow worked. It does get walled by that unkillable abomination, Toxapex but then again, that thing is annoying as hell. Its attacks suddenly hurt and beast boost increasing its attack suddenly makes it a threat. The only thing I hate about Buzzwole is how it wants roost, ice punch, drain punch, leech life and sub on the same set but has to give up one

Honestly, I think the tier shifts should wait until dark Urshifu is banned. I mean, that's literally the only reason poor Latios is fairing so poorly. Also, I thought it was mentioned somewhere that it would go back to something like shifts only every three months?

 

[AM]

should be using earthquake these days on buzz for pex the ice/drain, roost, toxic variant kind of sucks relatively speaking, if anything the set ben has in his archive with metronome leech, eq, pjab, roost.

There's a number of reasons Latios doing poorly and matchup against Ursh mostly 50/50 but a lot of other reasons like Spectrier, Mag.

 

[Red Raven]

Earthquake on Buzzwole sucks for me. It only does forty eight percent max to physically defensive Toxapex with max attack, which is nothing considering how near unkilllable Pex is. And yeah, I may have exaggerated on that Latios part but it still stands, ghosts and psychics are gonna be miserable with Urshifu in the tier, well, except maybe for scarf Lele

 

[Baptain Falbon]

I feel Buzz is under explored as anything other than an urshifu check.

Buzzwole @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge / roost
- Earthquake / roost
- poison Jab / roost

Team needs will determine what your third attack should be or you can be a savage and just run 4 attacks. But in that case you obvi lose defensive utility. Anyway this set is great imo cause you still cuck urshifu while Jab 2hkos clef and fini, eq 2hkos pex . Edge anihilates Moltres and does a ton to defensive zap and has a chance to ohko a variant that would be faster than you and CC just obliterates things, even clef takes 38% . The speed tier it hits is actually pretty clutch it outpaces heatran and all of the things that speed creep it with 254 - 255 speed. All in all I think urshifus existence is what makes everyone think this guy has only 1 dimension . It's still great against fighting and grounds and isn't total deadweight in other situations imo.

Also I forgot to mention you tank anything Rillaboom goes for and have a 62.5% chance to ohko with CC. Unless they're running acrobatics for no reason .

 

[ScarfchomperL100]

Earthquake on Buzzwole sucks for me. It only does forty eight percent max to physically defensive Toxapex with max attack, which is nothing considering how near unkilllable Pex is. And yeah, I may have exaggerated on that Latios part but it still stands, ghosts and psychics are gonna be miserable with Urshifu in the tier, well, except maybe for scarf Lele

With an Adamant Nature, Buzzwole does 44.7% to 52.6%

252+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 136-160 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 136-160 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

What this means is that provided Stealth Rock or a layer of Spikes are up, Toxapex is cleanly 2HKOd should it be holding Rocky Helmet or any other item that doesn't grant passive recovery. Even if it is holding a Black Sludge, the lower calc shows that a 2HKO is still possible and should be respected by the opposing player. And it is entirely possible for Buzzwole to run Life Orb as well and jack up the damage output to a 2HKO regardless of whether or not you run Jolly or Adamant.

EDIT: How funny, the guy who just posted above me had a similar idea in mind.

 

[Red Raven]

ScarfchomperL100 well, didn't really think of that since most of the Pexes I encounter are usually running black sludge and running earthquake means I would fail to hit Garchomp or Slowbro, two pokemon that makes my horns grow out. Not to mention its moveslot syndrome is almost as bad as Blaziken's

I've also encountered some random offensive variants of Buzzwole and it really made me appreciate the pokemon more however, I feel like it's not gonna get explored that much until the very balanced Urshifu remains

 

[Fusion Flare]

People are starting to realize that Buzzwole isn’t that great outside of countering Urshifu and a few other things that aren’t important because Urshifu is the biggest problem by far, as despite what its 139 base attack would suggest, it’s pretty passive and drags your momentum a lot. And Latios was *this* close to falling last month, so there’s a good chance UU will be suffering quite a bit this January.

Speaking of Urshifu, I have a good feeling it’s lesser brother will drop to UU, what with it being nowhere near as used as its big brother, due to its suffering from its STAB combo being easier to handle through Toxapex, Slowbro, and it doesn’t help that it’s punished EVEN HARDER by the meta game’s vendetta against contact moves due to its main move, Surging Strikes, having multiple chances to activate the crippling contact moves of the Kanto birds abilities, and fucking you over. God forbid if the opponent catches you with a Ferrothorn as well.

 

[gye5]

Earthquake on Buzzwole sucks for me. It only does forty eight percent max to physically defensive Toxapex with max attack, which is nothing considering how near unkilllable Pex is. And yeah, I may have exaggerated on that Latios part but it still stands, ghosts and psychics are gonna be miserable with Urshifu in the tier, well, except maybe for scarf Lele

Honestly, choiceband buzzwole with tpunch can break pex, plus moltres or corviknight. So I wouldn t suggest earthquake too. (banded is gonna the best set if urshifu gets banned)

 

[YeetYolk07]

imo I believe zeraora is one of the best stall killers, due to its coverage. Also having a niche as the most effective physical electric type. It's main competition being Urshifu-S, who is probably going to be banned. Having a good ability as well, allowing it to soak volt switches, and regieleki fairly well. A lot of fat things don't appreciate its moves. Close Combat, Knock Off, Plasma Fist, Play Rough, Blaze Kick, Volt Switch, Grass Knot, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Aura Sphere, Thunderbolt. As you can see, it's got options. Even Hippo can't beat grass knot, unless it's sp def hippo. Pretty much what I'm getting to is that, I believe Zeraora should definitely be explored more. 4th fastest in the tier, has move options, and has a very good ability. And now, since it's main competition, Urshifu-s, being gone, I do believe it might rise. Even Phys def lando, doesn't like being chipped by knock off, since it doesn't have recovery. Just want to know more thoughts on this because I believe it is really underexplored.

 

[gye5]

imo I believe zeraora is one of the best stall killers, due to its coverage. Also having a niche as the most effective physical electric type. It's main competition being Urshifu-S, who is probably going to be banned. Having a good ability as well, allowing it to soak volt switches, and regieleki fairly well. A lot of fat things don't appreciate its moves. Close Combat, Knock Off, Plasma Fist, Play Rough, Blaze Kick, Volt Switch, Grass Knot, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Aura Sphere, Thunderbolt. As you can see, it's got options. Even Hippo can't beat grass knot, unless it's sp def hippo. Pretty much what I'm getting to is that, I believe Zeraora should definitely be explored more. 4th fastest in the tier, has move options, and has a very good ability. And now, since it's main competition, Urshifu-s, being gone, I do believe it might rise. Even Phys def lando, doesn't like being chipped by knock off, since it doesn't have recovery. Just want to know more thoughts on this because I believe it is really underexplored.

I agree that people should explore Zeraora more but, boots has trouble breaking through defensive cores, bulk UP and calm mind have a nasty coverage issue, and banded needs some prediction. But I like Zeraora overall and u can trie to overcome this issues.

 

[Pabloaram]

Zeraora isnt doing much in a tier when LandoT is king... is good in uu but isnt as good in OU

 

[Red Raven]

Honestly, choiceband buzzwole with tpunch can break pex, plus moltres or corviknight. So I wouldn t suggest earthquake too. (banded is gonna the best set if urshifu gets banned)

Probably scarf too. I once lost to a scarf Buzzwole and it was legit humiliating. But band is rather heavy prediction and rocks are gonna make it much easier to break. Maybe sub bulk up would be a good choice too with elemental punches. It still needs some support I believe since a certain fairy blob is near everywhere and without poison jab, I doubt buzz would scratch the blob

 

[musiquepkmn]

Probably scarf too. I once lost to a scarf Buzzwole and it was legit humiliating. But band is rather heavy prediction and rocks are gonna make it much easier to break. Maybe sub bulk up would be a good choice too with elemental punches. It still needs some support I believe since a certain fairy blob is near everywhere and without poison jab, I doubt buzz would scratch the blob

Who knows after Urshifu leaves Clef might become more spdef.

 

[ScarfchomperL100]

You could potentially pair an offensive Buzzwole with Future Sight support from either Kanto or Galar Slowking (preferably the Slowkings over Slowbro due to it's ability to switch into most special attacks aimed at Buzzwole), which in turn allows a Life Orb Adamant Buzzwole's Earthquake/Stone Edge to "2HKO" Clefable and also "OHKO" Toxapex, common Buzzwole checks.

 

[Red Raven]

Who knows after Urshifu leaves Clef might become more spdef.

Why would Clef go specially defensive anyway?