Resource SS UU Crown Tundra Viability Ranking Thread

[fireblastmiss]

Nomming Golurk to C (cause @aquamarine313 peaked ladder with it, but doesnt have a smogon acc)

This mon has 0 switchins at the moment. CB Poltergeist does absurd dmg, 2HKoing max defense Tang after Rocks and none of the dark types can switch in well, even if you dont click EQ/coverage. It might not have the best defensive utility, but it can softcheck shit like Zera/Terrak and wall Regieleki which is definitely appreciated.
Now the other set I wanna touch on is Rock Polish. At +2 speed this thing devours whole teams and setting up is easier than you'd think cause it forces a lot of switches plus nobody expects this to polish in your face. Admittedly having Ziken in the tier forces people to run a lot of Azu/Daunt which still revenge this set (although it has a chance to live both lol), but once that is gone this mon only gets better.

Bonus replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1249297842
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1251380288

 

[gye5]

I think salamence should be nominated for S rank or at least A+. Why, well defensive sets checks zerarora, scizors, bisharp, victini, tangroth. Dragon dance cansweep unprepare teams with its great covergae. choice scarf can revenge kill and clean late game. Special sets are also fearsome blasting what would be checks like rhyperior, phy def rotom and offensive celesteela. So in conclusion I think that mence is more than just A and having an ice weakness also is a issue but no pokemon is not perfect and steel complements mence very well and viceversa making mence splashable and worth considering for most looknig for a good overall mom just like zerarora and celesteela

 

[Mystras]

Rise to A+
I think the advantages that Lycanroc dusk over Terrakion back during of Isle of Armor meta are still very present; faster, better coverage, and has that all important Accelerock to to make it a potent revenge killer, even against hyper offensive threats such as Galarian Moltres and Belly Drum Azumaril, something that Terrakion can never hope to do as reliably. Psychic Fangs are still appreciated to compress the coverage to smack both Kommo-o, Amoongus, Nidoqueen, and Crunch is still appreciated to threaten Slowking whereas Terrakion's Stone Edge while egregiously powerful on occasion, can also be egregiously unreliable.

I'm inclined to say its SD set is inferior to Terrakion for needing the boost more but its Close Combats still sting, SD boosted Psychic Fangs flat out OHKOs Amoongus, still has a great chance to OHKO offensive Nidoqueen without a boost, and plus 2 priority is always NEAT to make it harder to revenge kill.

 

[Master Chief]

I'll do a quick nom for Krook to A. I think it's miles more usable than the other A- mons rn and def on par usage wise and utility wise with the other A ranks. It's like one of the two good scarfers in the tier and one of the only usable dark types currently with very decent defensive utility augmented by intimidate. As a scarf it revenges a lot of important fast scary mons like lati, terrak, zera, tini. It's also a very decent rocks setter with taunt on some bulky offenses or HOs. All around you get a fair bit of customability and utility out of krook in this meta and it's def better than a lot of A- mons that fit on specific playstyles or just are kinda meh rn but alright.

 

[Monky25]

to B: The meta hasn't been kind for this poor cat. Terrakion and azumarill being the tier's top breakers doesn't help it. Also, I've found it hard to fit on teams considering there are better options to act as a defensive pivot or more reliable mons being available to check threats like jirachi, latias, and scizor. It just feels more along the lines of B, its useable and decent but isn't as splashable as it once was.

to A: I saw some talk in the discord about this and I kinda agree. The metagame has adapted to celesteela's passivity with there being many options found on all types of teams to deal with it. The offensive sets are scary, but between knock off and 4MSS means steela doesn't have that easy of a time getting a sweep going. For example, the defensive leech seed set is exploited by slowking who can pivot out into something like zeraora which can easily force it out. It's also vulnerable to burns and can get overwhelmed taking too many hits. There's a legitimate argument out there that steela can be A which does make sense to a degree.

to A+: Really love this mon right now. I find it hard to not put it on one of my teams because I enjoy using it so much. Its specially defensive wish set is amazing, being able to run support moves like healing wish, stealth rock, and thunder wave. The choice scarf sets are obnoxious as ever too, its arguably a better defensive steel than celesteela. I personally really like rachi's splashability and performance in the tier against many mons like latias, alakazam, tapu bulu, kyurem, and nihelgo, and I think it should rise to A+.

to B: Been feeling this for a while, but zone isn't that good in the current metagame full of grounds and offensive mons that can KO it. Furthermore, it isn't that optimal as a steel trapper, especially since it can lose to any of them. Bisharp outspeeds and knocks, jirachi can u-turn on it, even the defensive sets run speed to escape magnet pull, scizor can knock, u-turn, or superpower, and it cant switch in on steela as it can lose the 1v1. It beats skarm, but study means it lives a hit without chip and can chunk away zone's health with body press. Zone struggles in the current metagame facing competition from the other electrics and just struggles to do its job, so I'm nomming it down a subrank to B

to lower: I haven't really seen it all too much. It has a good MU against zeraora but looses to other top mons like azumarill, terrakion, tapu bulu, latias, primarina, tangrowth, kyurem, etc. And the stuff it does have a decent MU against like victini and scizor just gets U-turned on. Furthermore, the rise of tangrowth makes it very hard to pull this mon off at times. I don't really know which rank it should drop to, just it isn't B material for me.

to B- or B: Teapot always finds a way. once it gets a shell mash up you basically have to rely on priority to kill it. Darks like incineroar are in decline whereas krookodile gets beaten by giga drain, only leaving stuff like goltres and chansey as true answers without having to resort to a lower rank mon like zarude. Hogg made a HO team with it and I've tried it to good success, teapot is definitely better than crap like stakataka or seismitoad in B-.

to lower: Now that Blaziken is gone, ditto being able to steal it's boosts and reverse sweep is limited. It still works well against other set up sweepers like galarian moltres but in an effort to fix the B rank it just doesn't fit in with the likes of scolipede, mimikyu, obstagoon, etc. This admittedly is one I'm least sure about, so if someone wants to share their own thoughts about ditto please do so.

This last part is just a little roundup of all the nominations I've previously given or supported just to have them all in once place instead of bouncing around to different posts. Some of my previous nominations I have changed my opinion on, so if something I nominated to change is not in this post than I no longer support the nomination.
Rises:

to A+

to A+

to S

to A

to A-

to B+

to B+

to B

to B

to B

and

to B+
Drops:

to A-

to B+

to B+

to B

to B or lower

to B-

to B-

and

to UR

 

[BigFatMantis]

Seconding Twilight's nomming this to B

Twilight already mentioned it last month, but Zygarde-10% is way better than everything else in C+. Thousand Arrows is easily one of the best moves in the entire game, and a Banded Zygarde-10% can find itself in situations often where it can just sweep an entire team. Alakazam and Zeraora are the only things in the tier faster than it ATM, and it's the best ESpeed user currently. Being able to come in and OHKO big threats like Latias, Kommo-o, Rotoms, Terrakion, Lycanroc, and others is huge. There are no safe switch-ins besides Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu, and even still Bulu is nearly OHKO'd by Banded Iron Tail. I think it's probably even better than most mons ranked B right now (certainly better than Cobalion, for example), but not quite on the same level as the B+ mons.

 

[Amane Misa]

SCIZOR TO S RN

Yes I know this isn't SM but Scizor is still S-worthy. Not only does it naturally match up well versus the current top threats (Tapu Bulu, Terrakion, Kyurem and etc) but it also has the tools to get around it's supposed checks and counters.

The set I love the most right now and the one I will be discussing is the following:

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Swords Dance

I will now demonstrate how it can get around its alleged checks, starting from the top of the VR.

Zeraora
Zeraora will most likely try to directly switch into Scizor at least once throughout a game. It only needs to switch in once as you click Knock Off and remove what is most likely to be Heavy-Duty Boots and from there getting Zeraora to be in the range of +2 Bullet Punch is not a problem.

Not to mention, having a good pivot like Amoonguss or Tangrowth on your team with Rocky Helmet usually guarantees even more chip on Zeraora.

On top of all, Zeraora without a boosting move or item doesn't even 2HKO this Scizor set. While it is close roll, Scizor can desperately set up on Zeraora late-game with a potential success without hax.

252+ Atk Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zeraora: 147-173 (46.3 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zeraora: 135-160 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 147-174 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Celesteela
Playing against Celesteela is a bit tricky because you need to scout it's set. Luckily, because Scizor has Leftovers, scouting the set is way safer because you can tell how much is Celesteela invested in Speed via whose Leftovers message display first at the end of the turn.

If yours displays first you're lucky because since most Celesteela opt to invest mostly in SpD in order to beat special attackers like Alakazam and Latias more easily.

+2 252+ Atk Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celesteela: 226-267 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

One option is to have Celesteela's HP drop down to be in the range of Knock Off. However, since denying heal from Celesteela throughout the game can be tricky at times it is completely viable to use Knock Off on it early game to remove its Leftovers and then deny Leech Seed recovery and force Rocky Helmet chip on it with the likes of Rocky Helmet Amoonguss.

If you're facing the relatively more rare offensive Celesteela it is much easier to get chip on it so it's not an issue either.

Keldeo
Keldeo is one of the trickiest for Scizor to play against, but since most Keldeo players tend to play aggressively you can take advantage of it via hazards and via punishing Flip Turns with Rocky Helmet Amoonguss/Tangrowth.

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 117-138 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Rotom-W
If Rotom-W is bulky and it carries both Pain Split and Will-O-Wisp you're unlucky because it will most likely beat you. Otherwise, Scizor beats bulky Defog + Pain Split because Hydro Pump never 2HKOes it, it can miss, and Roost has twice the amount of PP.

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 148-175 (43 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

In theory, I don't advise doing that at all, but if Rotom-W carries Will-O-Wisp + Defog Scizor beats it even if it stays in on it. Hydro Pump is very unlikely to 2HKO a burnt Scizor considering all odds (you can run 24 SpD EVs to be on the safe side) but you end up with a burnt Scizor. This strategy is mostly relevant end game if it comes down to a 1v1 between both or if you have a cleric/a Healing Wish user in your team and you really wanna beat that Rotom-W for some reason.

Rotom-H & Victini
Directly beating them with Scizor is tough but passively beating them is not hard. You only need them to switch into Knock Off once and then getting enough chip with Stealth Rock isn't difficult. Having Rhyperior as a partner to Scizor helps because it denies Volt Switch from Rotom-H and it counters most Victini sets.

On top of everything, Scizor has more sets it can run that are effective like Choice Band and other SD-based sets. Even Defensive Defog can probably work I guess. All of those sets, including the aforementioned Knock Off set, have a good matchup against the current cheese playstyles running around because this kind of teams dislike dealing with a strong priority in Bullet Punch.

That said, Scizor won't win you every game from turn 1 but what I am trying to argue here is that the aforementioned set is extremely effective in the current metagame and if played smart can win a lot of matchups, enough to the point of making Scizor deserve the S-rank.

 

[Hilomilo]

Update time~

Rises
from A+ to S: Between the amazing offensive prowess its coverage and Speed offers, great defensive utility, and excellent versatility, Latias has pretty much everything you’d expect of an S-ranked threat. Its flagship 3 Attacks + Roost set offers arguably the tier’s best blend of offensive and defensive potency, though it can tap into its other options like Calm Mind and Choice Specs + Trick excellently. Among the most splashable and centralizing Pokemon around, S perfectly reflects its current place in the metagame.

from A to A+: Jirachi has been a steadying presence throughout this year’s Snake Draft, surging as an excellent means of role compression thanks to its great typing and colorful movepool. It’s a solid check to Pokemon like Tapu Bulu and Kyurem that offers fantastic additional tools with Wish, Stealth Rock, and U-turn. Choice Scarf and even mixed attacking sets can also perform well, furthering Jirachi’s applications.

from A to A+: Salamence’s widespread surge in usage has allowed it to prove itself as the tier’s most consistent defogger. It possesses both a strong offensive presence and solid defensive applications by virtue of its typing and Intimidate, allowing it to check top shelf Pokemon like Victini and Tapu Bulu.

from A to A+: Scizor has reclaimed its niche with offensive Swords Dance and Choice Band sets, its STAB Bullet Punch and the perfect coverage to whittle down its paper checks giving it a ton of value and threat level. It can still tap into its defensive utility well too, with both bulky SD and SpD sets offering a lot to the builds they can be fitted on.

from A to A+: Tangrowth checks a legitimately insane amount of incredibly threatening Pokemon in the tier, including Terrakion, Tapu Bulu, and Azumarill, but is a lot less limited than its main competition in Amoonguss with its capacity to run Assault Vest and ability to abuse moves like Knock Off and Earthquake. It’s a strong option and easy fit at the moment thanks to the difficulty teams encounter both breaking past it and pivoting into it.

from A- to A: Krookodile has seen consistent usage throughout Snake Draft for the excellent role compression and utility it offers right now. Stealth Rock, Intimidate, and STAB Knock Off are simply excellent teambuilding tools, but it’s also proven plenty capable of adapting, employing Chople Berry more frequently to more easily take on Pokemon like Zeraora and Lycanroc.

from A- to A: Stall teams are notably improving in the metagame, which benefits Chansey as a cornerstone of the archetype, though its defensive utility extends to many other teams right now with strong special attackers like Latias, Nidoqueen, and Galarian Moltres persisting as threats.

from A- to A: Nidoqueen is another really strong role compression Pokemon right now, its typing and bulk allowing it to check Zeraora while forcing trades with threats like Terrakion and Scizor. It also performs excellently from an offensive perspective with its STABs + Fire Blast being extremely difficult for teams to consistently pivot into.

from B+ to A-: Mew provides a ton of utility between being one of the tier’s best hazard leads, offering an emergency check to several powerful threats with its stat spread, and potentially shutting down the majority of UU’s defensive staples with its Taunt set. Cosmic Power sets also pose a solid threat and increase the amount of builds Mew can fit on.

from B+ to A-: Moltres poses a great threat with its powerful STAB combo and Nasty Plot, especially as screen teams have employed it to only increase its setup reliability. Its typing also presents excellent utility, allowing it to pivot into Ghost-, Ground-, and Psychic-type moves and giving RestTalk sets a firm niche.

from B+ to A-: Galarian Slowbro is carving a niche for itself again, with Calm Mind sets offering great utility thanks to its typing, but also a strong offensive niche once it can begin safely setting up. Grassy Seed sets have also gotten some love, improving both Slowbro’s splashability and durability.

from B to B+: In a metagame full of strong offensive archetypes, Grimmsnarl still makes its mark as the tier’s most reliable screens setter thanks to Prankster and the utility its typing and access to moves like Taunt can offer. The ability to pivot into Latias’ STABs is super valuable and allows it to further set itself apart from Alolan Ninetales.

from B to B+: Grassy Seed sets have given Reuniclus a more definable niche as a solid bulky wincon on terrain teams. After the defense boost it can easily take on the tier’s main Dark-type in Krookodile, while another traditional obstacle in physical wallbreakers like Terrakion and Mamoswine becomes a lot easier to bypass, giving it a lot of current potency.

from B- to B: Quagsire is another staple of stall teams that are seeing more recent usage, its good typing and Unaware allowing it to check popular Pokemon like Zeraora, Scizor, and Dragon Dance Salamence.

from B- to B: Stakataka’s presence was being a bit underrated in B-. Its typing allows it to answer to Latias fairly effectively while pivoting in on Jirachi and special Salamence, and OTR sets can highly threaten a lot of popular offensive builds late-game.

from B- to B: Several teams straight up lack sturdy counterplay to Toxtricity, allowing it to put in serious work with Choice Specs. Shift Gear is also alright for boosting its offense matchup and fits well on a few of the tier’s popular hyper offensive builds.

from C+ to B: Polteageist really thrives in a metagame without Ghost-type sweepers to compete with, one of its main checks in Incineroar falling off, and a general lack of sturdy resists to its STAB. It makes for a strong fit on screens or hazard stacking offenses and can bypass the tier’s most common Dark-type in Krookodile with boosted Giga Drain.

from C+ to B-: Zydog is a super underrated offensive threat with one of the best Speed tiers in the metagame, allowing it to pressure top threats like Terrakion and Latias. It also possesses arguably the most spammable move in the game in Thousand Arrows, giving Choice Band sets a real niche in such an offensive metagame.

Drops
from A+ to A: The metagame has generally adapted to Celesteela’s presence, with trends like the increased presence of Knock Off, Liquid Ooze Tentacruel being used as a tech for Leech Seed, and other Steel-types like Jirachi giving it more opportunity cost than previously. Its susceptibility to chip damage has simply become easier to exploit, though it’s still a plenty defining defensive presence and Autotomize sets can be very threatening.

from A to A-: Alakazam faces heavy competition from Latias, who offers stronger coverage for the tier’s relevant Steel-types with Mystical Fire and actual defensive utility with its typing, bulk, and set variety. Its frailty can also be easy to exploit given the popularity of Zeraora and priority users like Azumarill and Bisharp.

from A to A-: Despite providing one of the tier’s most devastating wallbreaking prowesses, Conkeldurr struggles to actually achieve its full potential due to the highly offensive nature of the metagame. It’s fairly prone to taking heavy damage from the tier’s many powerful faster threats, and due to Flame Orb recoil doesn’t offer as much defensive utility as it’d like. Terrakion also offers heavy competition, making Conkeldurr an awkward fit.

from A to A-: Kyurem is an excellent wallbreaker but suffers pretty significant opportunity cost given the large amount of great Dragon-types right now. Latias particularly also offers a solid offensive presence but has a typing, ability, and movepool that lend themselves far more to overall defensive utility. Jirachi and Scizor surging also forces Choice Specs Kyurem on its toes a bit more.

from A- to B+: Gyarados has fallen far from its previous grace and is just a bit of an awkward sweeper in general. It struggles bypassing Pokemon like Celesteela even after a boost, is forced to run a Jolly nature to outrun Zeraora at +1, and has a hard time choosing either an ability, coverage, or its item. In general, it just requires a lot more support than before to get going despite its great snowballing potential.

from A- to B+: Hatterene struggles to bypass popular Steel-types like Jirachi, Scizor, and Celesteela that can easily pressure it and also has more competition for its typing slot than in previous iterations of the metagame, especially given how good Azumarill and Primarina currently are.

from A- to B+: Rotom-W can’t counteract the presences of Zeraora, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth as easily as its main competition in Rotom-H, who can hit the latter two super effectively and resists both Giga Drain and Plasma Fists. Its typing also just doesn’t check as many prominent Pokemon as before, especially with Latias on top of the metagame.

from A- to B+: Despite checking Scizor and Azumarill, Volcanion is a bit of an awkward fit currently. It struggles to reliably work around the tier’s several popular Dragon-types, while other Water-type breakers like Keldeo and Primarina offer more through their typings, coverage, and set versatility.

from B+ to B: Haxorus simply suffers too much opportunity cost given the presence of several Dragon-types that offer far more utility. It can’t really bring much to teams defensively, while Dragon Dance sets face pretty stiff competition with Salamence. This really only leaves SD + Scale Shot for a defined niche, which just doesn’t currently justify B+.

from B+ to B: Incineroar has fallen way off as a defensive pivot with Terrakion/Keldeo/Azumarill all being top breakers and most of the meta’s other top Pokemon being able to muscle past it on their own fairly reliably. It can still check Pokemon like Victini and Chandelure while making great progress with its support movepool, but simply doesn’t offer as urgent of utility nowadays.

from B+ to B: Alolan Ninetales has generally fallen off as a screens setter in favor of Grimmsnarl, with its lacking defensive utility and hail chip growing easier to exploit.

from B+ to B: Togekiss struggles significantly to make progress in a metagame full of top Pokemon that heavily pressure it, including Scizor, Jirachi, Terrakion, and Zeraora. Its typing and movepool also just don’t offer particularly useful defensive utility at the moment.

from B to B-: Cobalion unfortunately hasn’t kicked off in the DLC2 meta, largely due to the awkwardness of being a Steel-type that can’t reliably check things you’d want it to, like Latias, Kyurem, and Alakazam. It suffers opportunity cost with various Steel- and Fighting-types being such good picks and overall doesn’t have an easily definable niche it can claim right now.

from B to B-: Gastrodon still has a decent niche as a Ground-type with recovery, but struggles to find many reliable matchups against top tier Pokemon barring Zeraora. It also suffers some competition in the Ground-type slot with rising rockers like Krookodile and Nidoqueen.

from B to B-: Poor Noivern is far past its prime, with UU’s several great Dragon-types severely eating into its splashability. It suffers severe opportunity cost with Salamence surging as such a strong pick in the metagame, but carves out a small niche still with its Speed tier, which is useful for revenge killing the likes of Latias, Terrakion, and Keldeo.

from B- to C+: Azelf struggles a ton to actually define a niche for itself. Suicide lead sets are probably its best bet in the meta but face pretty significant competition from Mew, while Fire-type coverage is really the only niche Nasty Plot sets offer over Alakazam. It has a lot of options due to its movepool, but simply too much competition for each of the roles it can take on.

from B- to C: Durant is super hard to justify with Scizor in the tier, but can still carve a small niche with its better immediate damage output, great Speed, and access to First Impression, which prevents it from being fully unranked.

from C+ to C: Arctozolt only fits on hail builds with Alolan Ninetales which aren’t particularly good or easy to put together at the moment. Bolt Beak + its Water- and STAB Ice-type coverage can really be menacing, but is currently quite difficult to harness to its full potential.

from C+ to C: Alolan Marowak suffers a lot of the same problems it did in USUM, such as its reliance on Thick Club and paltry Speed really limiting its longevity and overall defensive utility, though it still has a solid niche where it can be fitted.

from C to C-: This just doesn’t have as identifiable a niche in the metagame as it once did. First Impression alongside the defensive utility its typing and utility moves offer is still worth a slot on some teams, but it’s just very niche at this point compared to its heyday.

from C to C-: Porygon-Z has seen far better days, its awful defensive utility and shaky Speed tier making the tier's many other options for special wallbreakers/sweepers much easier to justify. It just doesn't have much of place right now despite its scary damage output.

from C to UR: Heliolisk offers an Aqua Jet immunity and some good special coverage, but really not much else to warrant a spot on teams compared to Zeraora, who offers far more utility and variety.

from C- to UR: None of these Pokemon have proven that they are worth using enough for a rank. Glastrier and Uxie only fit on Trick Room teams which haven’t kicked off at all, Sandslash fits on an ultra specific archetype that isn’t good right now, Talonflame requires far too much support than is worth to reliably sweep, and Lucario is good in theory but just doesn’t offer enough over the tier’s absolute multitude of Fighting-types it has to compete with.

 

[Hilomilo]

Discussion Points

Scizor A+ -> S: Both Scizor’s offensive and bulky Swords Dance sets are excellent right now and allow it to eventually take on really all of its common counterplay within a match. The amazing progress it makes against virtually everything in the tier has made it extremely centralizing recently, though as a Steel-type it’s also prone to opening up defensive holes in teams due to its iffy utility against stuff like Latias or Nihilego, which could justify keeping it in A+.

Krookodile A -> A+: Krookodile has truly surged to become one of the most commonly fitted Pokemon in the entire metagame. Its teambuilding value is at a particularly high point right now thanks to its excellent role compression and capacity to run either Choice Scarf or different variations of rocks sets. Due to its notable splashability, the VR team has considered raising it another rank come the next update.

Bisharp A- -> A: Bisharp has a lot of excellent offensive tools right now. Its STAB combo is far easier to capitalize on with Pokemon like Cobalion and Incineroar falling off, while STAB Sucker Punch is also very valuable for its ability to force mind-games against Pokemon like Latias, Victini, Jirachi, and the rising Polteageist. However, it could stay in A- on the basis of its defensive utility as a Steel-type being rather lackluster, which can constrict building if it’s being used.

Nihilego A- -> B+: Nihilego’s Meteor Beam set is really fearsome, especially given that Jirachi is really the only common Steel-type that doesn’t risk major damage from it. However, it’s a bit of an awkward Pokemon in that it has iffy matchups against many top tiers. Latias, Jirachi, Terrakion, and Nidoqueen all being staples hampers it, while other offensive Pokemon like Scizor and Azumarill pressure it pretty severely despite not being able to reliably switch in.

Suicune B+ -> A-: Suicune is criminally hard to work around once it gets boosted and can really capitalize on the metagame’s general lack of solid preparation for it. However, reliably handling Pokemon like Zeraora, Latias, and Tapu Bulu can prove to be a bit awkward, and it isn’t currently the easiest or most common fit on teams.

Magnezone B+ -> B: Magnezone is in a strange spot with crowded competition for a Steel-type slot and the main Pokemon that supply it with a niche in Celesteela and Skarmory not being quite as dominant. It still possesses a strong and unique niche, however, and can also severely limit its checks if it opts to run Analytic.

Torkoal/Vensuaur B -> B+: Sun may be a little underrated in its current rank, with Torkoal offering pretty perfect support for Venusaur, which can wreak havoc with its STABs and powerful Fire-type coverage. It hasn’t quite taken off as a play style yet, however, and can also be a bit hard pressed to deal with popular Pokemon like Latias, Kommo-o, and Chansey.

Diancie B- -> B: Diancie’s an interesting pick in the metagame, functioning as a rocker that can match up well against the increasingly common special Salamence set. It either checks or forces trades with a decent amount of popular Pokemon, but is also a bit clunky due to its vulnerability to Steel-types and stuff like Nidoqueen/Tapu Bulu, as well as a notable proneness to being worn down.

Tornadus C+ -> B-: Tornadus is perhaps a threat that warrants more love on the VR, its Nasty Plot set offering a powerful STAB Flying-type move and Fire-type coverage, both of which Thundurus lacks. It is weighed down by competition for a slot and a general lack of proven worth, but could still be more adequately represented with a rise.

Thanks for all the good discussion thus far! Be kind and happy posting!

 

[Sickist]

A+ -> S

While I agree with pretty much ever nom, this is the one I wanted to talk about. After having recurring nightmares about SMUU, I decided to watch some SS snake games, and boy does something look familiar. Scizor has been clawing it's way up to this point from some time, as it's tour usage has teetered with Blaziken being in the tier for a bit, but it's definitely more noticeable as of recent games. However, not much has changed for what Scizor does. For example, in this past week Snake game of Sabella vs Averardo, you can see Scizor doing what it does best: coming in, threatening something, and U-turning out. But that's not all. Scizor is a godsend for teambuilders right now, as it just has so many viable sets and usable attributes that are needed in building right now: a pivot that can come in on many of the metagame's mainstays, such as Latias, Tapu Bulu, or Kyurem, provide pivot support for slower breakers, or be a breaker of it's own. It's typing is fantasic as of right now, despite being 4x weak to Mystical Fire, allowing it to pivot in on pokemon like Krookodile, Tapu Bulu, Azumarill (praying they don't click Water STAB), as well as threaten many offensive threats, such as Terrakion or Lycanroc-Dusk, with STAB Bullet Punch. It also has the ability to instantly heal itself with Roost, which is directly less punishable then Wish from Jirachi (although its more support for your team), which means it's able to abuse it's ability to force switches to heal itself.

However, Scizor has had these attributes from day one, so why is it better now? A large portion of that has to do with UU's current metagame. With Latias becoming queen of UU again, as well as picks like Terrakion, Tangrowth, Slowking, or Tapu Bulu becoming top dogs (or having been already up there, but Scizor still abuses them), Scizor is given free real estate. The sheer utility Scizor can provide in one slot is just too good to pass up at the moment, giving you a lot more freedom in the rest of your build. Now I'm not saying Jirachi is bad or anything, I think Jirachi is easily top 10 pokemon right now in UU, Scizor just has more going for it as a Steel type at the moment. One of it's STABs being Priority means a lot of would be revenge killers are unable to revenge it without taking serious chip or being KO'd. STAB U-turn means anything that it can't directly beat, it can pivot and provide momentum for you. Like previously mentioned, it can heal in one turn, which is a lot better in some scenarios, especially in heavy offense matchups. Pair these attributes with the ability to pick and choose coverage to beat what it wants as well, and you've got yourself a very versatile threat. However, that's not where it ends. Rocky Helmet is becoming very popular to punish U-turn users, primarily due to Scizor's dominance. Now obviously there are a lot more users, and regardless, Helm is good to punish these, but with Scizor starting to pick up a lot more, there's a lot more helmets on defensive pokemon. This means Scizor is indefinitely required to be accounted for in the builder, which means it's centralizing somewhat as well. Being a versatile centerpiece of the metagame that has few downsides to running marks an S rank pokemon for me.

While it's 1:30am for me, so this post is probably poorly constructed and kinda all over the place, I hope I was able to somewhat illustrate why Scizor is easily a key part of the UU metagame and why it's certainly an S rank pokemon in my eyes. I hope you have a good evening or day or morning!
​

 

[Monky25]

Here are my thoughts on some of the discussion points, will do the main ones now but will revisit some of the ones I'm unsure about another time

- see above post, completely agree with the dominance of scizor. Should rise to S.

- also referring to the above post, the greatness of scizor makes nihilego suffer in the current metagame. Coupled with the domiance of latias, jirachi, azumarill, terrakion, nidoqueen, and even sets like scarf bulu becoming more common means nihilego struggles right now. It's still a solid mon, but definitely fits more with B+ than A-.

- was the one who originally made this nom but zone struggles in this current metagame. I stand by what I said in my earlier post, so go their for more info. I would like to see more discussion on zone and whether should rise or drop to B, with my opinion being the latter.

- also agree with this rise, tornadus has a wide array of coverage and can hit a lot of strong mons in the tier like bulu, tangrowth, amoongus, kommo-o, keldeo with it's stabs and has a colorful movepool in heat wave, dark pulse, focus blast, grass knot, and priority defog/tailwind means it should rise at least a subrank to B-, as it has demonstrated a consistency around that level.

- should definitely rise to B+. venusaur under sun has two switch ins, kommo-o and chansey, and both can be taken advantage of by their teammates. Sun has plenty of options like hatterene, chansey, victini to work with venusaur and torkoal. Sun gets a solid amount of usage on the ladder and coupled with venu's lack of switch ins means sun is worthy of the B+ rank.

Not gonna look into the other noms of krook/bisharp/diance/suicune just yet, but first impressions are keeping the latter 3 the same while rising krook to A+, will do testing with them and do a future post that has more details. Really liking the UU metagame and can't wait to see what new sets pop up!

 

[Glitchwood High]

I don't think Latias should be S tier and this isn't because they aren't a really good Pokemon, because they are. I think Latias-especially it's specs set-is quite difficult to switch into and should be taken seriously. That being said...

Latias has to eternally deal with the fact that both of it's stabs are resisted by one type-those being the omnipresent steels-and this can be quite frustrating for pretty much every set. Mystical Fire is neat but not very good without a solid boost. For example:

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 190-226 (47 - 55.9%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Jirachi can u-turn out, or thunder wave, or wish, or any combo of the two.

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 138-164 (34.7 - 41.3%) -- 67.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Heavy slam 2hkos Latias on average and it has leech seed to fuck you up plenty for even attempting this.

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 208-247 (74 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO . Pretty decent but then you take a flash cannon and are forced to roost. Alternatively, they could steel beam and do 86% minimum.

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka: 95-112 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 3% chance to 3HKO. Pretty bad considering this is the offensive variant with trick room and gyro ball.

Contrary to popular belief, draco meteor also has a lot of surprisingly solid switchins. These include Jirachi, Celesteela, Staka, fairy types (bar Azumarill), Chansey, etc. If you want to include really nice stuff, there's also incineroar and registeel. Calm Mind + Recover isn't enough to beat these mons since they either threaten status, or just straight up 2hko you with stabs.

Then there is the specs set, which actually does fix these problems as most of the abovementioned calcs get irrelevant when coming from choice specs latias-but choice specs itself actually introduces a few problems of it's own. There is the mandatory Draco Meteor and Psychic, but trick is also great, you still want mystical fire to at least be able to hit steels, but you still like recover and even defog. Specs Latias solves it's power issues but then adds another problem in the form of severe 4mss.

Defensively, latias also has some struggles. Knockoff's omnipresence in the tier means it always has to fear losing an item and being forced out in the same turn. It's also quite vulnerable to being toxic'd, which is a death sentence for the cm set and forces latias to recover a lot more than it should. It definitely has it's merits (beating azumarill if not severely chipped, beating nihilego if it has psyshock/is faster) and offers a lot more on defense than most offensive Pokemon, and I don't want to downplay this mon too badly so I'll stop there.

All in all, I think Latias is a lot easier to answer than Zeraora, and that's pretty much all I'm getting at. It's still an A+ tier mon, you could still argue that it's 2nd best in the tier for sure. Hell maybe you could still argue it's S-rank, but I've always believed an S-rank mon is less 'really good' and more 'bonkers', like good old electric monkey. (I also think the same thing about Scizor except to a greater extent)

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Think krook deserves A+,
Its such a good mon with perfect coverage on scarf, defensive rocks providing a physicly defensive mon that can also take 1 hit from most fighting types and answer back with a powerful earthquake or knock off or just set rocks up in the faces of special attackers like zeraora who fear the earthquake and can do 30 in return with play rough. Scarf krook is a revenge killer who pressures every opponent due to the removal of mega and z moves, with item removal via knock off fast earthquakes to pressure zeraora and many common ground weak pokemon such as jirachi, victni and nidoqueen. It also has intimidate which is an excelent ability to soften up physical attacks. It is splashable on many styles such as balance, offense, and Hyper offense as a lead.

I think zone should stay in B+,

It offers to check celesteela, skarm, iron head choice locked rachi, scizor.It has an excelent ability in magnet pull to allow to trap steels to open opportunities for its teamates such as latias who struggles to break through against celesteela and jirachi unless they are repeadetly chipped. But on the other hand it struggles with its low speed tier at 60 and fails to come in on many of the top threats such as knock from scizor, latias and salamences draco meteors, jirachi u-turn/aura sphere, and general strong attacks. I think B+ is fine for it, tho I feel the trend of zeraora, bulky grasses, terrakion, latias, Victini, zeraora, and nidoqueen are some of the offensive pokemon that give it trouble

 

[Totomon]

I liked Monky's way of writing so im stealing it >:)

- I genuinly see no reason for magnezone to stay in B+, it struggles with almost every offensive threat in meta, it can't even perform its niche correctly as you cant switch it in easily unto STEEL TYPES and even with specs its power isnt impressive enough to be considered a nuke. B+ mons are ones that their presence can be felt in the builder but if u just build a regular UU team mag gets easily dealt with, so yeah B.

- Krook should stay A, yes it is very versatile, yes it can run a bunch of viable sets, however this only makes it splashable and usage doesnt equal viability, the impact it leaves in every match isnt as big as the incredible power of victini or tangrowth's walling and knocking capabilities, krook isnt really as threatening as the A+ mons. (If A+- existed it would probably be there but thats a stupid idea)

- Scizor is crazy and the post Sickist made is pretty cool an easy S

- Lego's cleaning capabilities with scarf and meteor beam are insane but it fears a bunch of the current meta mons, it isnt bad its just a meta thing so B+ should be its home now

About the other ones i dont have a concrete opinion maybe ill post something when i have my thoughts clear, also...

- ZAM IS SO BAD! There is a ton of priority flying around, it gets no setup opportunities and the only way u are getting something done is with a sash (that kind of speaks for itself), the popularity of scizor and krook buries this one even more since it has to rely in the amazing focus miss, Drop this lad to B+ (I would even be fine with it dropping to B) I just had to say something about this one

 

[BigFatMantis]

A few things:


LATIAS: S -> S

Latias is fine in S tier. It is much better than the other dragons in A+ (Kommo-o and Salamence), and is both splashable and can pressure pretty much every single team. If you have a team without Latias, there is probably a way for you to drop something and change it to Latias, and your team will instantly become better, no matter what type of team it is.


VICTINI: A+ -> A+

I previously made a post about how Victini should drop, but after testing the boots set on the ladder, I retract that statement. Victini is very good, has multiple sets, and has coverage to threaten almost everything. When everyone was spamming V-Create Band it was very easy to counteract with Salamence and that's why I didn't think it to be that amazing, but now that people have figured out how to diversify it, it is a top threat for sure. There isn't a single pokemon that blanket checks all of its sets. So this is not really a nomination, but more of me retracting my previous shade I was throwing on Victini.


CELESTEELA: A -> A+

This poor thing keeps getting put down, and somehow lost steam with a Blaziken ban? I understand that people have "figured out" how to beat it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still something you absolutely need to take into account when teambuilding. The defensive leech seed set will still just plain beat you if you don't plan your team accordingly. And then the Meteor Beam sweeper set is one of the most dangerous special sweepers in the entire tier. The only thing that can compare with it is Moltres-G. The other mons in A Rank don't have the same effect on teambuilder that Celesteela has - you don't need to exclusively plan for Slowking, Keldeo, Krook, etc. - you will usually have stuff to deal with it and don't need to dedicate 1-2 slots exclusively for those. But if you ignore Celesteela while building and don't commit at least 1-2 things exclusively to deal with it, you can end up having a team that has no chance to beat it.


NIDOQUEEN: A -> A-/B+

Nidoqueen is very good, but A is a little generous. It's a good breaker, can set up hazards, but you can't commit to both offense and defense at the same time, so it ends up being not the sturdiest if you're going offensive, or not the mightiest/super slow if you're going defensive. It's one of the best Zeraora check (arguably the best), which is why it's probably better in A- than in B+.


ALAKAZAM: A- -> A-

I think Zam is fine at A-. It was A before and that was high, but A- is where it should probably be. It is very threatening just with Life Orb and not even needing a NP boostt. With Orb it can do crazy damage and it's faster than everything in the tier except Zeraora. Psyshock + Shadow Ball is great coverage with just those two moves and access to Knock Off can punish a switch in. Like everyone else said though, it's very frail, and definitely should not have been A rank. But I think A- is just fine.


THUNDURUS: A- -> B+

Was going to wait until I finished research week, but I have found that Thundurus-I is just not all it's cracked up to be. It is definitely a better pivot than Thundurus-T, but Zeraora is a better pivot than both of them, so I find it hard to justify using Thundurus-I over Zeraora if my goal is to have a good electric pivot with Knock Off. No Volt Absorb means you can't switch into a Zeraora also, but Zeraora can switch into you and use Plasma. It's too frail to consistently use a Nasty Plot breaker set, and I think Thundurus-T actually does the breaker job more easily. It's certainly not BAD - I actually think it is a good pokemon and a good pivot. And I agree that it is better than Thundurus-T generally. But to me, viability is tied into having a reason to use it, not just how good it is, and unless my team has a blatant ground weakness I don't see why I would use Thundurus-I pivot there instead of Zeraora.


GYARADOS: B+ -> A

Gyarados is the most disrespected Pokemon from these rankings. It is one of the best set up sweepers in the entire tier, especially with Regieleki now gone. It has the right coverage moves to sweep everything on a team. Once it gets going, nothing can stop it except a full HP whirlwind Skarmory, and even then it could get flinched once and that's the game. Rotom-W? +1 Power Whip OHKO. Amoonguss/Tang? Bounce at +1 to OHKO. Scary stall team with Quag/Paloss/Tang/Jirachi? Boost up once, maybe eat a lum, KO one thing, and then you've got the moves to sweep the rest. It even has decent bulk, and if you don't have screens you can use an Intimidate set to still set up safely on anything non-electric. It's obviously not the best Pokemon in the tier, and I don't think Mr. Gyarados Mon expects us to put him even at A+ rank. But the breaking power is undeniable and B+ is not the place for it. It's sitting there with Reuniclus and Volcanion I mean come on.


NINETALES-A B -> B+

I understand and agree with everyone's points on why they think Grimmsnarl is a better screen setter than Ninetales. What I don't agree with is the fact that Ninetales-A is now in a category that doesn't even have any other UU mons except Quagsire. It's not THAT bad - Veil is still the best screen to set, and it has its perks over Grimmsnarl in other ways. I think they are both comparable enough to be in the same category, even if Grimmsnarl might be a little better. Encore + Hypnosis are better support moves to gain momentum than anything Grimm has. Taunt Grimm is good, but you find it harder to get a safe switch in to a sweeper with Grimm support than you do with Ninetales support. But again, Ninetales has its drawbacks too, as your sweepers take hail chip damage, and prankster ensures you get a screen up no matter what. I would call them "too close to call" on which one is better, but I think it is pretty clear to me that Ninetales-A is more viable in UU play than a Ditto or Doublade or Toxtricity or Stakataka, all of which are currently sitting alongside it at B rank.


That's all, nothing else I have a really strong opinion about.

 

[Notily]

hello

- i dont think this deserves s tier, mainly because you're forced into running one of chansey / spdef invested slowking / diancie or stacking steels, otherwise you're on the back foot vs lati essentially from preview. i dont think s rank mons open up structural holes in teams in the way that scizor does. to illustrate my point i'm gonna take a look at a couple scizor teams from snake and how they do vs the standard 3 attacks lati set, which is the most common set in my experience.

odr vs lyss - odr gets lati in on kommo t3 and which then proceeds to click buttons until something dies and lyss can get in zera to force it out because the steel (scizor) cant switch in.

booty vs averado - booty's uses a somewhat unconvential latias check in av tang to try and cover's scizor inability to switch in. it functions decently in this role, but comes with the caveat of making the team weaker to cb azu. also, av tang can still struggle to check latias if rocks are up.

i think the number of structures scizor fits on holds it back from s. it's certainly an amazing mon and does the stuff an s rank mon does, but it leaves you with a not great to awful matchup vs probably the best mon in the tier by virtue of non-steel type lati checks (outside of chansey which can be awkward to fit with scizor) being relatively shaky.

other stuff i care less about:
- s -> a+: i dont really get why this is s? terrak / azu's presence means theres a bulky grass on basically every functional balance team so it knocks the helmet and basically becomes a volt bot until theyre weakened. sure it stomps offense as the fastest mon in the tier but it comes with next to no defensive utility outside of revenging stuff. this thing seems like zarude 2 where its good in theory but just ends up clicking the pivot move all the time which can be hella abusable

zam is still good as fuck imo though i agree np sucks most of the time. really valuable speed tier, knock covers so much as a midground and usually makes it so zam doesnt have to rely on focus blast to make progress. it supports itself well so you dont have to devote that many team members to supporting it and can make up for its lack of defensive utility. should stay where it is in my eyes

 

[Moutemoute]

- s -> a+: i dont really get why this is s? terrak / azu's presence means theres a bulky grass on basically every functional balance team so it knocks the helmet and basically becomes a volt bot until theyre weakened. sure it stomps offense as the fastest mon in the tier but it comes with next to no defensive utility outside of revenging stuff. this thing seems like zarude 2 where its good in theory but just ends up clicking the pivot move all the time which can be hella abusable

Zeraora is way more than a Volt-Bot and definitively better than Zarude mainly because of its great movepool which allows it to pick what it wants to pressure : Play Rough for Dragon-types such as Kommo-o, Blaze Kick to nail Scizor, Close Combat for an overall great move but also options such as Taunt, Toxic etc.. Zeraora is just so versatile, speedy and decently bulky for a Pokemon like that. I trully think it deserves its S-rank because it's able to pressure a lot of stuff and revenge kill many prominent threats.

 

[gye5]

A few things:


LATIAS: S -> S

Latias is fine in S tier. It is much better than the other dragons in A+ (Kommo-o and Salamence), and is both splashable and can pressure pretty much every single team. If you have a team without Latias, there is probably a way for you to drop something and change it to Latias, and your team will instantly become better, no matter what type of team it is.


VICTINI: A+ -> A+

I previously made a post about how Victini should drop, but after testing the boots set on the ladder, I retract that statement. Victini is very good, has multiple sets, and has coverage to threaten almost everything. When everyone was spamming V-Create Band it was very easy to counteract with Salamence and that's why I didn't think it to be that amazing, but now that people have figured out how to diversify it, it is a top threat for sure. There isn't a single pokemon that blanket checks all of its sets. So this is not really a nomination, but more of me retracting my previous shade I was throwing on Victini.


CELESTEELA: A -> A+

This poor thing keeps getting put down, and somehow lost steam with a Blaziken ban? I understand that people have "figured out" how to beat it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still something you absolutely need to take into account when teambuilding. The defensive leech seed set will still just plain beat you if you don't plan your team accordingly. And then the Meteor Beam sweeper set is one of the most dangerous special sweepers in the entire tier. The only thing that can compare with it is Moltres-G. The other mons in A Rank don't have the same effect on teambuilder that Celesteela has - you don't need to exclusively plan for Slowking, Keldeo, Krook, etc. - you will usually have stuff to deal with it and don't need to dedicate 1-2 slots exclusively for those. But if you ignore Celesteela while building and don't commit at least 1-2 things exclusively to deal with it, you can end up having a team that has no chance to beat it.


NIDOQUEEN: A -> A-/B+

Nidoqueen is very good, but A is a little generous. It's a good breaker, can set up hazards, but you can't commit to both offense and defense at the same time, so it ends up being not the sturdiest if you're going offensive, or not the mightiest/super slow if you're going defensive. It's one of the best Zeraora check (arguably the best), which is why it's probably better in A- than in B+.


ALAKAZAM: A- -> A-

I think Zam is fine at A-. It was A before and that was high, but A- is where it should probably be. It is very threatening just with Life Orb and not even needing a NP boostt. With Orb it can do crazy damage and it's faster than everything in the tier except Zeraora. Psyshock + Shadow Ball is great coverage with just those two moves and access to Knock Off can punish a switch in. Like everyone else said though, it's very frail, and definitely should not have been A rank. But I think A- is just fine.


THUNDURUS: A- -> B+

Was going to wait until I finished research week, but I have found that Thundurus-I is just not all it's cracked up to be. It is definitely a better pivot than Thundurus-T, but Zeraora is a better pivot than both of them, so I find it hard to justify using Thundurus-I over Zeraora if my goal is to have a good electric pivot with Knock Off. No Volt Absorb means you can't switch into a Zeraora also, but Zeraora can switch into you and use Plasma. It's too frail to consistently use a Nasty Plot breaker set, and I think Thundurus-T actually does the breaker job more easily. It's certainly not BAD - I actually think it is a good pokemon and a good pivot. And I agree that it is better than Thundurus-T generally. But to me, viability is tied into having a reason to use it, not just how good it is, and unless my team has a blatant ground weakness I don't see why I would use Thundurus-I pivot there instead of Zeraora.


GYARADOS: B+ -> A

Gyarados is the most disrespected Pokemon from these rankings. It is one of the best set up sweepers in the entire tier, especially with Regieleki now gone. It has the right coverage moves to sweep everything on a team. Once it gets going, nothing can stop it except a full HP whirlwind Skarmory, and even then it could get flinched once and that's the game. Rotom-W? +1 Power Whip OHKO. Amoonguss/Tang? Bounce at +1 to OHKO. Scary stall team with Quag/Paloss/Tang/Jirachi? Boost up once, maybe eat a lum, KO one thing, and then you've got the moves to sweep the rest. It even has decent bulk, and if you don't have screens you can use an Intimidate set to still set up safely on anything non-electric. It's obviously not the best Pokemon in the tier, and I don't think Mr. Gyarados Mon expects us to put him even at A+ rank. But the breaking power is undeniable and B+ is not the place for it. It's sitting there with Reuniclus and Volcanion I mean come on.


NINETALES-A B -> B+

I understand and agree with everyone's points on why they think Grimmsnarl is a better screen setter than Ninetales. What I don't agree with is the fact that Ninetales-A is now in a category that doesn't even have any other UU mons except Quagsire. It's not THAT bad - Veil is still the best screen to set, and it has its perks over Grimmsnarl in other ways. I think they are both comparable enough to be in the same category, even if Grimmsnarl might be a little better. Encore + Hypnosis are better support moves to gain momentum than anything Grimm has. Taunt Grimm is good, but you find it harder to get a safe switch in to a sweeper with Grimm support than you do with Ninetales support. But again, Ninetales has its drawbacks too, as your sweepers take hail chip damage, and prankster ensures you get a screen up no matter what. I would call them "too close to call" on which one is better, but I think it is pretty clear to me that Ninetales-A is more viable in UU play than a Ditto or Doublade or Toxtricity or Stakataka, all of which are currently sitting alongside it at B rank.


That's all, nothing else I have a really strong opinion about.

I dont agree the fact that u said that latias is better than mence. Latias better speed and spdef makes better at revenge killing and taking things like thundurus. But when you fear scizors best move, zerarora always having a move to hit it like knock that is way more common. Mence doent fear scizors and can even check zerarora with play rough. Mence has the same spe atack as latias and a huge atack stat that makes mence harder to check because of the variety of sets it can run. Mence without boots has a stealth rocks weakeness but latias has a knock off and u turn weakennes. In concmusion they belong in the same tier.

 

[Adaam]

I think Jirachi to A+ is overrating it. Defensively it is worse than Celesteela, and offensively, it is worse than Scizor. It gets rocks and recovery, but by using a defensive set you have subconsciously accepted you will use an entire teamslot dedicated to dealing zero damage. Power creep has been very unkind to it, and previous beasts like SR + 3 attacks is a lot harder to pull off when you need to account for Salamence now, and helmet Grasses, and Victini, and Heattom, and Zera, and Scizor, and Celesteela, and Slowking, and the list goes on. It thus has been relegated into Twave + Uturn spam with the occasional "please god let me flinch this Nidoqueen 2 times in a row" sequence that is not that good for A+ with beasts like Mence/Sciz/Azumarill/Spagoot. I think fully offensive sets are underexplored and can be useful, but right now I find it difficult to justify using Jirachi if it isn't Scarf.

Zeraora should drop, and while I think its presence is a significant reason for the high Grass-type usage, the fact remains that the majority of teams have Bulu/Tang/Amooguss so it really should not be S anymore.

Agree with Moute and rising Zarude. It's been a surprising decent mon with Weezing/Coba/Incin non-existent now. Mence hard stops it, but at least you outspeed it so that's nice. Plus it stops those Psychic + Tea cheeses.

Lastly, Magnezone should not drop any further and could probably rise. It traps 3 strong Steel-types in Scizor/Skarm/Celesteela and makes something like Scarf Jirachi unable to ever click an attack besides U-Turn. It has 1 role and its pretty good at it. Some players have been experimenting with DD Mence + Zone (revolutionary I know) in high level tours to good success. If anything I'd rise it to A-.

Other stuff: Thundy-I, Mew, Tentacruel should drop. Lati's dominance has made Thundy hard to justify, while Demon Mew is honestly a meme and super hit or miss. Other sets have potential but until I see it in action I have doubts. Tentacruel's main niche was destroying Celesteela which has fallen off, and it struggles heavily with Mence and has a hard time keeping up with mons it's supposed to check like Keldeo and Azumarill.

EDIT: I also wanna plug Scizor to S. It's the best mon in the tier rn with CB + SD sets being as nasty as ever. I disagree with it being awkard to use, not like it checked Latias very well in SM either. Bullet Punch + one turn recovery just offers so much with strong enough coverage to hit almost every check it wants. It's time we accept our savior and stop living in denial, Scizor is life.

 

[gye5]

I think Jirachi to A+ is overrating it. Defensively it is worse than Celesteela, and offensively, it is worse than Scizor. It gets rocks and recovery, but by using a defensive set you have subconsciously accepted you will use an entire teamslot dedicated to dealing zero damage. Power creep has been very unkind to it, and previous beasts like SR + 3 attacks is a lot harder to pull off when you need to account for Salamence now, and helmet Grasses, and Victini, and Heattom, and Zera, and Scizor, and Celesteela, and Slowking, and the list goes on. It thus has been relegated into Twave + Uturn spam with the occasional "please god let me flinch this Nidoqueen 2 times in a row" sequence that is not that good for A+ with beasts like Mence/Sciz/Azumarill/Spagoot. I think fully offensive sets are underexplored and can be useful, but right now I find it difficult to justify using Jirachi if it isn't Scarf.

Zeraora should drop, and while I think its presence is a significant reason for the high Grass-type usage, the fact remains that the majority of teams have Bulu/Tang/Amooguss so it really should not be S anymore.

Agree with Moute and rising Zarude. It's been a surprising decent mon with Weezing/Coba/Incin non-existent now. Mence hard stops it, but at least you outspeed it so that's nice. Plus it stops those Psychic + Tea cheeses.

Lastly, Magnezone should not drop any further and could probably rise. It traps 3 strong Steel-types in Scizor/Skarm/Celesteela and makes something like Scarf Jirachi unable to ever click an attack besides U-Turn. It has 1 role and its pretty good at it. Some players have been experimenting with DD Mence + Zone (revolutionary I know) in high level tours to good success. If anything I'd rise it to A-.

Other stuff: Thundy-I, Mew, Tentacruel should drop. Lati's dominance has made Thundy hard to justify, while Demon Mew is honestly a meme and super hit or miss. Other sets have potential but until I see it in action I have doubts. Tentacruel's main niche was destroying Celesteela which has fallen off, and it struggles heavily with Mence and has a hard time keeping up with mons it's supposed to check like Keldeo and Azumarill.

Agree with u jirachi , and dont think belong to A+. This is not like dlc 1,where jirachi was free to run whatever it wants. Scarf sets are easy to punish with rock y helmet. Celesteela no only take those hits well but also is competition, trick is the only thing that fears from that set . Calm mind is fine but latias can do that as well and it doean break inmediatly because if that stab combination. Jirachi is a hax machine that doenst deserve to be A+ for now.
A pokemon that does deserve that spot is krookodile, is a very consistant mom unlike jirachi (that just hax eveything) and can run many viable sets, I like máx defense plus choppel berry plus toxic. Is good at checking lycanroc and terrakion. I am gonna be sharing replays about this soon.

 

[Lily]

pains me to say it but yes to a zera drop. it's still a top 5 mon without a doubt but it's not seeing enough experimentation to really make it great against its standard checks so it falls flat kinda often (seriously tho please try blaze kick on it, it's so good)

no to a scizor rise. it didn't check latias well last gen and that was when fire moves weren't on 90% of them so it absolutely opens up massive building holes now. it's also massively hurt by how much more commonplace bp resists are now lol, it's not like you've gotta run some shit like babiri togekiss to lure it now bc you can just slap on blaze kick zera, boots victini or keldeo and you'll be pretty fine vs it for a long enough time to outplay it and wear it down. it does perform like an s rank offensively but the drawbacks are undeniable and hold it back from the rank, if we had S- then it couild go there but as of rn it fits fine in A+ as probably the best mon there, maybe 2nd best if zera drops. it's not like latias where you can just throw it on absolutely anything or where its amazingness compensates for the holes either.

jirachi should rise, wish and rocks sets are both absolutely incredible even if they're a bit passive just bc they stonewall so many otherwise ridiculously threatening pokemon including the ridiculously broken latias and also annoying stuff like bulu and nihilego. it feels like it's picked itself up enough now to hang with the big boys in a+ to me but i'm not that bothered either way.

this thing being in a is just criminal, pun not intended. it's the best scarfer in the tier w/o a doubt and also a good rocker and one of the few ground types that even has a semblance of reliability. it's consistently at the top of the usage stats at this point and idk how we're underrating it so much.

this thing is definitely not quite at the hype level it was at in the past. it's still really good and underrated even but it's harder to just throw it onto teams and have it function. b+ is fine

i don't have much to say other than that i don't think this should rise at all. it does not even remotely strike me as a consistent a- threat.

rest of the discussion slate is stuff i'm p much indifferent on or haven't seen enough of, i'm happy with the most recent update overall so i don't rlly have too much to say other than this stuff (mostly the scizor thing)

 

[Lyssa]

I have no clue why everyone wants to drop zeraora all of a sudden? Grass types have always been present in every single team due to the presence of mons like azu and terrak in the tier, yes, but are they really an issue to zera? Well they are, but aren't difficult to play around from my experience. Overwhelming amoonguss is really easy for example and i think my replay against odr in uu snake proves it quite well, even tho i had a wrong move on accident on zera which meant that the game came down to a tie. There are currently 0 mons in UU that can clean up without support or something that helps them getting progress down on their checks/counters, and i think that doing it with zera is quite easy and has one of the best rewards once you are able to bring the grassy mons down. It's speed is insane and can work as a speedcontrol if paired with just a prio, it has a great coverage(i know that everyone spammed it already in this thread but blaze kick is good, please try it) and the damage output from it is really good. Add to this that it's really easy to fit and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be S.

Might talk about other noms/placements i disagree with another time but i just wanted to talk about zera for now. o/

 

[Monky25]

VR Sundays

Instead of posting in the vr whenever I come up with a nomination, I'm instead commiting myself to posting here every Sunday to discuss my thoughts on both previous nominations within the week and nominations of my own. The length of each post will vary of course, with some weeks being longer depending on the previous discussion in this thread. This post is gonna be divided into 3 parts: noms I agree with, disagree with, and my own nominations. My reason for doing this? None at all, just like partaking in healthy and enjoyable discussions about mons. Anyway, lets get started.
Nominations I agree with:

to B: Moute made a really good post about Zarude and how it has a nice stall breaking nice with bulk up and jungle healing. I've played him on the ladder with him using zarude against my cheesy HO team. Long story short, I lost badly and it definitely made me more aware about Zarude's viability in this metagame. It's a good check to crawdaunt, mew, slowking, latias, and krookodile, and while it does struggle with things like the grasses, its worth being in the B rank.

to B+: Echoing the same sentiments as Bfm, ninetales alola is just as a good screens setter as grimmsnarl, albeit slightly worst. Imo grimm>tales, but tales being able to gain momentum with hypnosis and set veil in 1-turn is a major niche over grimmsnarl. I think both have their pros and cons, with grimm being slightly better than ninetales, but honestly they achieve the same result most of the time and I find it hard to have them in separate ranks when they are interchangeable for the most part.

to A- instead of A: Gyara is legit being slept on right now. I find the previous reasons for it dropping (item, moves, ability) to not exactly work too much. As an avid gyarados user, I can say that the tools it needs depends on the team that is being used. For example, a gyarados on HO is going to want something like lum berry over boots since screens helps with the rocks damage and moxie for snowball potential, whereas gyarados on a bulky offense team will want intimidate to have more set up opportunities and HDB since it doesn't have screens protection. with it's last move its a catch-22, you screwed either way. Bounce has more power but is exploitable, while ice fang is so weak. Both have their cons and they hit virtually the same things, so its a matter of preference for the most part. Its true gyarados has flaws, its why its in A- as opposed to A, but its still a potent sweeper in the metagame and the reasons for it dropping don't really work as it all depends on the team structure for it's ability, item, and moves.

to A+: After some time, I do agree with a krook rise to A+. Viability is ranked on how good it is and how splashable it is in the metagame, with krook fulfilling both roles. It has a variety of sets like scarf and stealth rock and fits on a wide variety of archetypes like HO, BO, and Balance. It compress a latias check, electric immunity, knock user, rocker, potential revenge killer all in one spot. It is true it doesn't have an impact on the builder like tangrowth or victini, but regardless krook has shown itself to be a consistent and great pokemon in the tier, prompting me to agree with a rise to A+.

to B+ or even B: While I did not participate directly in the research week, I did some testing on an alt of mine. I found that thundurus is very inconsistent at what it wants to beat and competes way to much with zeraora to have an A- ranking. Its 4MSS, lack of defensive utility, and awkward fittingness makes it not a good pokemon atm. Thundurus-i best works on screens HO imo, but even then it has 4MSS still. While the speed tier is clutch, there are little to none times why I'd use it over zeraora, and thus it should drop to B+, maybe even B because that 4MSS is such a pain.

to B+. A simple drop, agree with Adaam when it's main niche was beating celesteela, but since steela is on the decline so is this mon. It competes too much with amoongus as a poison or slowking as a bulky water, and struggles with mons like zeraora and latias. Its not bad, but A- is a bit too high for it, so it should drop to B+.

- this is a discussion point I wanted to talk about. While I did originally support a scizor rise to S, Notily's post really made me reconsider my views and how the team need to be severely prepped for latias when scizor is the main steel. Also, while it is true a grass type is one every team due to how good zeraora is, they still limit it and without a partner like victini zera ends up being a volt bot. Thus, I have a suggestion. We create an S- rank and put both scizor and zeraora there, they demonstrate qualities of an S rank pokemon yet aren't on the same level as latias, so they can coexist in S- rank.
Nominations I disagree with:

to A: Its fine in A-, its lack of splashability and low speed tier do cause problems for it. Its still good, but not on the level on other A rank mons.

to A-: No way . While it is underrated, suicune lacks the splashability and consistency of an A- pokemon, so it's fine in B+

to B: This was admittedly a hard choice, but diance just matches up too poorly against mons like bulu, jirachi, azumarill, scizor, and terrakion to be a B rank mon. If it does end up rising to B, I wont be surprised, and even now I'm torn on it, but I lean toward stay B- for now.

to A-: Nope, zone to B rank. I will die on this hill.

to B+: Gonna disagree, zam's speed tier is still really good and hits hard even without a boost. The steels and darks do hinder it, but it still has an insane damage output that makes it good enough to stay A-.

to A: While it is true celesteela needs to be accounted for in the builder, the fact the meta has adapted to it means that it's less viable than before. The opportunity cost to running it is much higher with jirachi being very good as competition tier and teams being prepped for it. the analogy is can give is Dracovish being A rank pre-dlc despite being the most centralizing mon in the tier. Burt because every team ran seismitoad, it became more of a burden to use it and it's viability dropped due to every team being over prepared for it. Celesteela isn't a bad mon, but considering how well the meta has adapted to it means its less viable and should remain in A. Its offensive sets are super good, yet it has 4MSS and knock generally messed with it a lot, plus specially defensive mons like chansey and nihilego mess with it a bunch.

to A-: I think Nidoqueen is fine in A. She's a super reliable rocker and gets many good matchups against the grasses, zeraora, scizor, choice locked terrakion, bisharp, jirachi, salamence, rotom heat, and the thundurus-forms. It's displayed good enough consistency to stay in the A ranks.

to lower: Cosmic Power Mew is a DEMON, once it gets going it is hard to stop. Admittedly it can fall flat at times, so a drop to B+ might make more sense depending on how the meta goes, but for now I learn toward keeping it in A.
My own Nominations: these are the ones I'd like to hear more feedback on and what you all think about them rising or dropping, so please give your thoughts :)

to A: Despite nearly only fitting on HO builds, a boosted motlres-galar is one of the nuttiest sweepers in the tier. At +2 special attack and agility, it is outrunning everything in the tier and being able to fire off brutally powerful dark and flying attacks. While it is underwhelming at times without a boost and has a few decent stops, the sheer power of moltres-galar makes me want to nominate to A rank.

to B- or lower: I've had a hard time finding out doublade's niche lately. Its a good counter to earthquake-less terrakion, but it struggles to bypass mons like amoongus and tangrowth and its low speed and special bulk means it's fodder for things like victimi, mamoswine, nidoqueen, keldeo, moltres-galar, hell even latias beats this mon reliably. Its still usable, but doesn't reflect the B ranks at all and should go at least to B-

to lower: Ditto is neither splashable nor good in this meta. It will always have a niche stealing boosts and reverse sweeping, but B? Come on, its nowhere as viable as the things in there. It's barely used and fits on limited archetypes which don't even run it at times, HO had declined with blaziken and regieleki leaving, its just not good enough to be B. Idk where it should go, but definitely not B rank.

to UR: Gonna be real, I don't see what this can do uniquely compared to others. Rotom-cut is outclassed offensively be zeraora and both thundurus forms but also defensively by fellow grasses and the other rotom forms. It doesn't beat anything the other rotoms lose to, and its hard to justify when there are so many good grass and electric types in the tier. Overall, I fail to find niches for this to stay ranked, this ain't worth using in the current metagame

 

[Camarade Papadov]

I don't usually post here, but I would like to have a say on the current metagame.
if you cba reading, I think Latias is S, Zeraora is S

On Latias :

For me, whatever the team you run, Latias is one of the most dangerous pokemon, and one of the thing you MUST be prepared for.
Latias is an absolute S that should even be S+ if that existed.

The best speed tier in UU : 350 only outsped by scarf, zeraora, alakazam and zydog. An amazing typing and spD bulk, that lets it COUNTER some threats as an offensive mon, keldeo, starmie and volcanion (they dont exist in the meta just because latias is s), the rotoms, confortably switches on non twave slowking, soft checks non megahorn terrakion in an offensive match up, checks kyurem (yeah you tank the hdb freeze dry) and the list goes on and on.... Btw its an offensive pokemon that we play full speed full spA. How many offensive pokemons in the tier can do this kind of stuff ?
Like for real. Hydreigon could do this but we dont have it anymore. Noivern could do this, doesnt exist anymore. There are no fast and bulky pokemon that can both offensively pressure teams and have the luxury to run a recovery move.

Offensively speaking...

It's simple, there are like only 4 viable pokemons that switch on it : jirachi, celesteela, sylveon and chansey. Im not adding scizor coz considering scizor your latias counter is just asking to get mystical fired on. I dont count Diancie too which is so so so bad.
Sylveon is hard to pull off rn as its easy to chip it, it loses momentum, etc. And after some chips, rocks, knock offs, a +1 latias really often kills it so...
Jirachi must be spD invested and run wish to counter latias continuously.
That means what ? There are only 2 pokemons in UU that confortably switches on latias. Two momentum sinkers celesteela and chansey (teleport works but after taking a psyshock you're pretty much always forced to recover).
There are some other fine options like twave togekiss, but toge lets zera comes for free which is really something you dont want.

So.... What are the other options to kill latias ? With a scarf and zeraora. Thats it. This alone justifies krook being A+ as being a scarf that kills latias is sooooo huge, but ill get onto this point later.

I don't think i need to say much more about Latias. This is the best pokemon in the tier and its absolutly impossible that Latias is a dead weight in a game. Do you really expect more from a S tier mon ?

And this also explains why we see Zeraora and krook this much. Like lets be honest, you ll see one of these two mons at least once per battle.

On Zera :

This mon, like Latias, is definitly a meta shaping pokemon. It revenge kills almost every single offensive pokemon in the tier. And that includes the other S tier pokemons Latias and Scizor. Like Latias, this thing is always useful. In fat match up, it can pivot, knocks things, threaten annoying walls like skarm, celesteela, slowking... In offense match up, its just godly. There is like only krook and nidoqueen that offensively threaten this thing, and a few scarf (victini for instance). It leggit means that you most of the time keep the momentum while using zera (and it also obviously has volt switch).

But what makes this pokemon S is the tendancy people have to just splash an amoonguss and calls it a zera counter while zera can definitly beat it with the appropriate set : sub, lum etc. I personnaly never run volt switch on zera as I think it truly is a good wallbreaker that needs as much coverage as possible to get those key OHKO.

Also, an S mon is S because of how splashable it is. Zera is the definition of splashable.


I would also end on a little note on Scizor that is in my opinion S worthy too. It can run way too many different sets, can pivot, tank, break, late game clean, can go on every single playstyle, has an amazing typing.
People talked about bulky scizor with leftovers but the good old Iron plate SD offensive and SD life orb are also crazy good.
Despite the tier being full of electric, steel and fire, Scizor's Bullet punch is always always something you can count on, getting those key revenge kills on absolute nightmare pokemons like BD Azu, chipped latias, etc.

And Krook is without a doubt the best scarfer in the tier with the rare rock resists, ability to break demon mew and double dance reuni, INTIMIDATE (probably one of the best ability in the game). Its role compression is just amazing. And ofc, it beats the two S pokemon Zera and Latias with a scarf which is something insanely important. easy A+

I wish I could explain more my choices but i dont have much time rn

 

[solonor24]

Nomming Golurk to C (cause @aquamarine313 peaked ladder with it, but doesnt have a smogon acc)

Always nice to see my influence

B+ --- A
Bro no cap I think half of you either haven't tried it or forgot it existed or smth this mon is so good. Super easy to setup w and clean many teams, 2 good abilities, good typing, and just shreds fat.

Gyarados @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Moxie / Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Bounce
- Power Whip
- Waterfall

I found myself using this set the most, and have so many bodybags with it. I personally prefer whip over that sub shit cuz u break stall almost instantly with it. U can change ability and nature depending on your team structure and how weak u are to zera.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1259521907
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1259510788
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1259671290-q9ukp20emfo01ski8pjfmoypl0agx3jpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1259503129-omogb1a2g9oi6gvjo6a9kyh6lri8dtvpw

I know 90% of this ladder is dogshit and beating these type of players means nothing but trust this mon is way better than its competition in B+.