Resource SS UU Crown Tundra Viability Ranking Thread

[467 11 11p]

The people have called and I have answered today I will be nominating everyone's bar Gobo user Laevin favourite pokemon Godlurk to B-

This mon has 0 switchins at the moment. CB Poltergeist does absurd dmg, 2HKoing max defence Tang after Rocks and none of the dark types can switch in well, even if you don't click EQ/coverage. It might not have the best defensive utility, but it can soft check shit like Zera/Terrak and wall Regieleki which is definitely appreciated.

This post that is true doesn't give Godlurk justice this is an appetizer of how powerful Godlurk is.
Golurk has fantastic offensive and defensive typing (ghosts are broken and grounds are necessary) allowing it to come in on broken ass terrak, and toxtri and ofc many more but those are the biggest ones. Offensively wise this thing is a fucking nuke I cannot comprehend why it is not on the vr list. It has a 110 stab boosted 100% accurate (with no guard) move called poltergeist, and this just clicks buttons being able to 2hko things such as tang, among, skarm, celesteela, max def kommo. Basically, you name a defensive mon godlurk can bust through it. On top of the nuke, it has orgasmic coverage. With coverage with ice punch to demolish mence, 100% accurate dynamic punch to fuck over the normals and ground coverage for options that you may not want to not waste poltergeist pp on. I hope this post opened up your eyes that Godlurk is truly a devastating nuke in the meta right now and is definitely worth building on and deserves to be in the viability ranking, unlike trash ass palossand. Is this the same thing as my teambuilding post yes it is. If you have a problem with it lmk when and where you wanna fight. Now, why B- aside from it nuking the entire tier well it's because there's a somewhat unviable pokemon there in C called asswack or marowak-alola and tbh I think wherever asswack is Godlurk needs to be 2 ranks higher due to it 1. Not being weak to rocks 2. Doesn't get completely fucked by knock 3. More sets. Idk what kind of crack vr has been on but it needs to be fixed. Ty for reading and ty for putting Godlurk in C+ or B- :)

 

[Twilight]

Remain B+ or rise to A-
I think Magnezone is pretty slept on right now, aside from Rotom-H there aren't many things comfortably switching into it. I've been using a lot of Magnezone as of late on builds surrounding it supporting Pokemon like DD Salamence or Scolipede. Even in situations where it can't trap anything, if it gets a free turn against something slower the opponent isn't going to have an easy time switching into it. As a standalone wallbreaker I think it can rival Thundurus-T as Analytic is worth considering on some builds. Trapping Scizor is also great because a fair amount of the bulky SD sets aren't running U-turn and the offensive sets aren't max Speed to OHKO it with Superpower first.

Agree with a rise to B
I've only used Choice Scarf because Latias but it is still solid as others have mentioned. It still has a good amount of checks like Skarmory, Amoonguss, Salamence etc. but it's better than most of the crap in B-

Disagree with a rise to S
I just don't find Scizor to be S material personally. It's extremely annoying to wall, SD sets pretty much being on par with last gen, but I don't find myself throwing it onto most of my builds and that is primarily because of Latias's influence. Scizor can still revenge kill Latias but building does become so much more restricted when your Steel-type gets OHKO'd by Mystical Fire. As others mentioned, if S- existed I'd vote to put it there; however, if we stick with the current tiering then I'd keep it A+.

Agree to these all dropping to B+
Mew is still decent and I like the suicide lead and utility sets. The whole Cosmic Power thing is falling off slightly although it can still win games. I think Thundurus struggles to compete with Zeraora for the most part. I don't consider Latias to be the prominent issue here because I think Knock Off + U-turn sets are the best on it, which can actually break/annoy Latias. Tentacruel hates this insurgence of Psychic-types and, just like last gen, everything it wants to check it does poorly.

Keep it in B
This Pokemon sucks.

Drop to B+
Nihilego struggles with Latias, Scizor, Terrakion, etc. all being so popular. The Meteor Beam sets can still be dangerous but I don't think it is on par with everything else in A-.

Drop to C+
Not sure what sparked Diancie being on the slate for a rise to B but I think it's pretty bad right now. The only thing it does better than the other Fairy-types is walling special Salamence. The downsides of using this Pokemon is it takes up the Fairy slot but loses to every Fighting-type. It also just lets in everything for free like Nidoqueen. Without Mystical Fire you are Scizor food (assuming Roost) and without Toxic you lose to Latias 1on1. I'd just drop it into the C ranks.

My noms:

Rise to A-
The switchins to Chandelure are limited to like 2 Pokemon. It gets many chances to wallbreak against the Grass-types, Jirachi, Scizor, Victini, etc. The Speed tier is the main thing holding it back as you invite in some scary wallbreakers like Terrakion. Kommo-o isn't that reliable of a switchin when Specs Fire Blast or Overheat chunks it and the main Dark-type in the tier is Krookodile, with Bisharp and Galarian Moltres being more HO exclusive. It's very easy to get in with all the VoltTurn support in the tier and the removal is good enough to support Choice locked sets.

Rise to A-
I've been using a lot of Rhyperior as of late and it is definitely one of the better Ground-type SR setters right now alongside Nidoqueen and Krookodile. Unlike those two, Rhyperior provides a lot more defensive utility while having a strong offensive presence. It helps handle a lot of current meta stuff like Victini, Salamence (Most being Flying + Fire coverage), and Zeraora. It doesn't let a lot of shit in for free because EdgeQuake isn't easy to switch into. It's got a great movepool so I've been using stuff like Poison Jab for Bulu, Fire Punch for Scizor, Megahorn nails Latias and Tangrowth, etc. It's got a lot of tools it can opt for in that last slot depending on the team's needs.

Rise to B-
It walls Terrakion and Zeraora. I acknowledge it isn't amazing but it deserves some respect than to be clumped up with the random crap in C+ like rain.

UR
We unranked all the other Trick Room shit so idk why Cresselia is still here. I can't imagine it is because of CM sets because I'd rather use Glowbro or Reuniclus on fat builds.

This was discussed a little internally, but I'd support a universal C rank. Alternatively, I say we just nuke C-, which I've wanted to have happened before. I don't see why C needs three subranks to define how niche they are. There is barely anything worth differentiating between 90% of the stuff in there.

 

[Band]

Late night post just wanted to give some thoughts before we move on to other discussion points.

Scizor A+ -> S (Disagree)
I really don't feel like Scizor is as defining as Latias and Zeraora. Skarmory, Celesteela, and Quagsire brickwall it and Latias with Mystical Fire just defeats Scizor completely, especially Roost + 3 Attacks which can recover Bullet Punch. SD sets are dangerous, yes, but you can usually keep enough pressure on Scizor due to it acting as a soft check to stuff like Nihilego and Jirachi, so it gets weakened quickly. Sets lacking both Speed for Magnezone and Superpower get defeated by it, since U-turn has been less common with the BP / Knock / SD / Roost set being more popular.

Krookodile A -> A+ (Agree)
Hands down the best scarfer in the tier, compresses so many roles and can do so many things. Intimidate, Electric and Psychic immunity (these are important considering Latias and Zera are so dominant), Stealth Rock, Taunt, Ghost-resist, and of course, very good use of Choice Scarf. Sash lead sets can always get rocks against Grimmsnarl due to Dark typing and will most likely get rid of something with Earthquake or at least knock an item off. Scaring other leads like Mew and Azelf is also nice.

Bisharp A- -> A+

252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 320-380 (106.3 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 252-299 (92.9 - 110.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Quite a high chance of OHKOing, but if Bisharp lives, it gets the +2 boost, OHKOes Latias back (which isn't even needed to do so) and can then sweep the other team if stuff like Tangrowth has been weakened.

Being capable of revenge killing the biggest threat on UU right now without risking Speed ties, taking LO recoil, and doing this without needing any boosts or prior damage must be worth something. And Sucker Punch WILL sweep teams if Bisharp gets a boost and the opponent's Bish answer is weakened (Bish can easily setup without SD due to Defog's popularity rising with defensive Salamence and Defiant activating in general due to Krookodile and Salamence rising). After Stealth Rock, Victini is OHKOed by Sucker Punch without the need for a SD boost (though Heavy-Duty Boots sets are a lot popular rn). Offensively checking the Psychics in Alakazam, Latias, Jirachi, Victini, Slowking, Hatterene, and Mew is what really sells Bisharp for me, and I think it deserves to be A+ because of this.

Suicune B+ -> A- (Agree)
Pure Water-typing isn't bad but isn't exactly good right now. Zera + Grass-types laugh in front of Suicune. It can usually deal with Tang and Amoong with Calm Mind, but Tapu Bulu and Zeraora deal huge damage to it. Thundurus-T, Rotom-W, Mantine, Volcanion, and Bolt Strike Victini all either completely wall RestTalk sets or constantly pressure it with Electric-type moves. The ability of setting up CM in front of Slowking, Jirachi, and Tentacruel is nice though, and in the right conditions, Suicune becomes unbreakable and unstoppable. A- is a fine place for it.

I'd do some more noms but these are the ones I wanted to talk abt the most

 

[Monky25]

VR Sundays

Back it again with another weekly VR post! This post is gonna be a lot shorter than last time, but basically I'll go through previous nominations in the thread and share my thoughts on them while also giving my own nominations I've accumulated from my week of laddering. Divided in 3 sections like before, nominations I agree with, disagree with, and my own. Without further adieu, lets get started.
Nominations I agree with:

- I have hopped on the godlurk propaganda. Being a solid breaker with amazing coverage and a stupidly spammable stab is excellent. with poltergeist it 2hKOs common defensive mons and while it is weak to mons like bulu, zera, and azumarill while also likely having to be built around to work, its better than anything in the C ranks so I support a rise to B-.

- alas, after more testing I have changed my shaky stance from slightly leaning A- to supporting a complete drop to B+. Cosmic power sets were heat because nobody expected them, but now everyone knows how to look out for it and it's consistency has dropped tons. Its still a nasty stallbreaker who fears nothing but sabeleye, but the general performance of this mon has dropped and B+ is better for it now that the meta has shifted away from HO a bit.

- was originally unsure about this but after getting my ass beat on the ladder several times with this I support a rise to A-. Its basically what twilight said, very few switch ins defensively, easy to get in despite the hazard weakness, and while it is slow and krook being everywhere doesn't help it, a teammate can usually solve this issue. Very underrated mon and should rise to A-.

- while making a bisharp HO team for the UU rating competition, i got to test out bisharp a lot more. My main concern was the 50/50s sucker punch causes, but that hasn't even been a big deal as more often than not sucker punch lands. I do think A+ is a bit of an overstatement about bisharp but I think A rank fits this mon now.

- what twilight said as well, trick room stuff was unranked so might as well drop this ass mon as well since it only fits on trick room.
Nominations I disagree with/Indifferent on:

- there's are reason it was a discussion point to move to B, it does force a good amount of trades with higher tier mons like latias and salamence. B- fits fine for now, its niche but better than the C ranks. If it moves down I don't really care as I was less torn on this one than I was a week ago.

- nope, the plethora of electric and grass types hold it back. It can sweep unprepared teams, but has none of the consistency nor splashability of an A- pokemon. B+ is fine.

- not sure about this guy atm, need more time to make a dedicated support. Leaning toward A- but need more uses with him.
My own nominations:

- i get this mon rose last shift but I feel it could rise again to B. Thousand arrows is a stupidly spammable move and its speed tier as one of the fastest mons in UU helps it get the jump on a lot of mons. It has priority in extreme speed, strong stab in outrage, and the lasts lot is super flexible, being iron tail for fairies, superpower for who knows what, or glare and toxic to cripple mons like latias. All in all, zydog is way better than all of B- and I think it should rise a subrank to B

- grassy seed sweepers kinda just died out. Its underrated as I was the one who originally made this nom but I think I'm gonna send it back down to B. Its arguably the best of B should it go down, but it doesn't feel B+ material anymore compared to some of the other mons there and how the grassy seed trend just died out. If it returns to prominence then it can rise back up.

- you have not faced true terror until you fight avarice using sun in a room tour. All jokes aside, considering sun is likely to rise next slate considering the little opposing to it, charizard is almost a staple to the archetype with it's specs sets shredding nearly everything in the tier. Yes, its weak to common attackers like zera and terrak, and also hates taking 50% if rocks are up, but I believe it is niche enough to rise to B-.

- UR this mon. We unranked all the trick room mons and at this point golurk does this guys job a lot better, so this mon is pretty useless now.

Lastly, I want to say I support a universal C rank or at least getting rid of C-. With the best of the C ranks like charizard, tornadus, and pallossand being nommed to rise to B-, C+ isn't that much different from C. I just think the C ranks should be purged into only 1 rank and just unrank a lot of the too niche mons that hasn't show that much use. This includes stuff like

and

who are in C- which should get purged and even things like

could have a chance to get unranked as well, in addition to previous nominations of things like cresselia, alola wak, sharpedo, and rotom-cut. This isn't me saying they SHOULD get unranked, I'm saying if we want to combine all the Cs into 1 rank then these are some of the mons that are close in my eyes to being unranked completely. All up to the VR team of course. Anyway, this has been VR Sundays, and I'll see you next week.

EDIT: After seeing pallossand’s usage in snake this past week, I’ve changed from behind indifferent on a rise to supporting a rise to B-

 

[Take Azelfie]

B- ---> B
I think this mon has a lot more flexibility than its rank implies and differentiates itself enough from Quagsire to justify its usage, except on stall based teams. Having the Water Immunity is also a huge boon as it forces the water-type wall breakers to go for 50-50s such as Azumarill, Primarina, and Keldeo. On top of that it can also use this space on a correct read to set up Stealth Rock or remove an opponents item via Knock Off, another two points it has over Quagsire. Outside of Knock Off it also acts as a pretty satisfactory pivot into Rotom-H which can help to support a large variety of mons in the tier (such as any of the steel-types) you can even play around with Toxic / Sludge Bomb in one of the other moveslots for baiting Tangrowth/Bulu respectively. It definitely has weaknesses like not being reliably recover HP but it's Water immunity and access to Rocks gives it a niche on teams while also being able to compress roles effectively.

 

[gglrg]

Hi. It's been a while since someone made a post and I'd like to nom that has been working alot for me, Chandelure

B+--->A-

Chandelure hits very hard with its Specs set and has trick to destroy mons like chansey thinking it can hard wall it. Another really good set is the subcm set that can break through so much in this tier and it's ghost and fire resists are very minimal to the point of bulletproof kommo-o and even 252hp takes a good 40% from specs fire blast with pretty much no recovery bar leftovers. It's disappointing speed tier can be made up by a what i would call a lot less potent scarf set to revenge things like latias, non-scarf victini, lo alakazam and more. But unfortunately without it its speed tier makes it easy to be revenged by terrakion, lycandusk, zeraora, keldeo krookodile, nihilego and more. So to conlcude, I think it deserves a place in the a- rank.

ps: thanks to bfm for helping me a bit with this cuz I suck at at these posts!

Edit: Here are some noms i agree with but i don't want to explain in full

to B-
to B
to UR
to A+

 

[Band]

A- -> B+
Disagree. I feel like people a aren't exploring what Nihego has to offer. SR + 3 Attacks Nihi is able to pressure the tiers most common hazard removers like Rotom-H, Salamence, and even Tentacruel if running Thunderbolt. It easily scares them off and soaks up their hits, setting up again the hazards they removed. And if you run Knock Off/Corrosive Gas it is specially annoying for Rotom-H and Salamence since it can remove their Boots. Choice Scarf and Meteor Beam on HO are still very good cleaners and can revenge a lot of stuff, like Moltres-G, Zeraora, Bulu, Primarina, and the aforementioned Oven and Mence. Finally, Nihilego can even fit on Stall because of its amazing special bulk and useful defensive typing. It can act as an offensive and defensive presence, removing items with Knock Off, spreading poison with Sludge Bomb, setting SR or even TSpikes if you like and just dealing good damage overall. I think Nihi fits just fine on A-, since it still struggles with common threats like Terrakion, Krookodile, Jirachi, and Latias.

B+ -> B
Agree. Magnezone can't even trap the most common steels in the tier in Jirachi and Scizor since they run U-turn like 90% of the time and Choice Specs fails to OHKO Celesteela and gets heavily damaged by Flamethrower in return. The only Steel-types it can trap are Skarmory and Bisharp, but even then Body Press does a good chunk to Zone before it knocks out Skarm if it still has Sturdy intact and Bisharp can Knock Off Zone's Choice Specs before it is KOed. Other Electric-types are just faster, provide at least some defensive utility through useful immunities to types like Ground and Electric, and don't rely on Choice items to deal heavy damage.

/ B -> B+
Disagree. Don't get me wrong, Venusaur under sun is EXTREMELY scary, especially with +2 Special Attack, and you basically have to sack something to it or predict its moves extremely well and wait for sun to end. It's bulk and recovery in Giga Drain also help it circumvent being too weakened and/or chipped by LO recoil. But the problem relies on two things in my eyes: getting Venusaur safely to sweep with enough sun turns remaining and preventing it from getting too worn out from hazards + lo recoil + chip. Sun teams without some sort of pivot like Teleport Chansey or Victini will almost always have to hard switch Venusaur on a move to take advantage of enough sun turns for it to both setup and deal damage. between hard switching, taking hazards if they're up, setting up with Growth and then trying to recover some HP with Giga Drain, Venusaur has already been too weakened and will most likely fall to priority when under sun or just to normal hits out of sun. Torkoal having to choose between boots and heat rock also doesn't help, as it wants boots to switch in more times to set sun and spin hazards away more reliably, but it also wants heat rock to guarantee more sun turns for its teammates since it lacks recovery. Overall sun is extremely scary when played right, but it requires too much prediction and preparation from the player.

C+ -> B-
Agree. Imma be honest I haven't used this mon like ever, but Nasty Plot under rain with Hurricane sounds really scary, especially with such a good Speed tier and coverage for stuff like Nihilego and Chansey with Superpower. And unlike Thundurus, Tornadus's STAB isn't resisted by Kommo-o and Latias, so it can threaten them more easily. Being capable of outspeeding Latias and U-turning out of it is also a cool trait. Defiant and Prankster will always be useful abilities, especially with wide moves like Superpower, Knock Off, U-turn, Taunt, Defog, etc. Seems like a fun mon to try.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Azelf: C+ to A-

That's right I'm skipping a whole letter here. Azelf has been unfairly labeled the laughingstock of UU. But it is very good at what it does: It's the fastest Rock setter in the tier - the only things faster than Azelf are Alakazam and Zeraora. It's also the fastest anti-lead with Taunt, with only Grimmsnarl being able to Taunt faster w/ Prankster. And, it can explode for immediate momentum, something that nothing else in UU can reasonably do well besides Mew which is a noticeably worse speed tier.

It also has access to Knock for immediate utility, U-Turn to pivot, incredibly high offensive stats and access to coverage moves like Flamethrower/Fire Blast (which can fit on most sets). And that's just really talking about its lead set. It also has so many unexplored offensive and utility sets (LO AoA actually tears up a good chunk of the tier). I think that, if Zera didn't exist, this thing would be an easy A Rank. But it's definitely better than C+ rank that's just embarrassing - it's way bettter than everything else in C+ rank (Mantine??? Roserade???). It needs a big jump imo. Maybe A- is a bit of a joke but it def deserves higher than C+.

-

Other minor things:

: A+ to A: I think the Bulu hype has passed - it's very good, but I don't think it's quite on the level of the other A+ mons like Kommo-o, Jirachi, Terrak, Victini, etc. Even a lot of Zeraora's run Blaze Kick now for it.

A+ to A: I think Tangrowth and Amoonguss are about the same in viability with each having their own perks and downsides. I think they should each be in the same viability category which would be A. Tangrowth is a great tank but it's not like we have a lacking of special attackers to overcome it, and it almost always gets Knocked every game so the AV set does not shine as much as it should.

 

[Monky25]

Post Latias VR nominations​

I'm back with a whole lotta VR nominations coming off of the ban of Latias, I was waiting after the test before resuming VR posts since many of my nominations are a byproduct of latias being banned. I know it may seem quick to do this, but these Pokémon generally had their viability more or less based on Latias being in the tier, and with it gone they either have a rise or drop in viability. The post will be split into 2 parts, previously made nominations I agree or disagree with and then my own nominations. Of course, discussion on these nominations is always appreciated and healthy in my book. Lastly, to the surplice of many, very few of the previous nominations in the thread change from latias being banned, most of them are still valid and stay the same, so check out my other VR Sunday posts to see my other nominations in this thread. Lets not waste any time and lets get started.
Nominations I agree/disagree with:

to S, Agree: This was made in a previous post but now that Latias is banned the main issue of scizor being a steel that looses to Latias is gone. Many already supported a rise to S regardless, but now Latias being banned definitely gives a reason why scizor should be S rank now. I'd look at Sickist's post for a more detailed explanation for why scizor should be S.

to A, disagree: I think Tangrowth has 2 major advantages over amoongus which is why it is a subrank higher. It is way less passive than amoongus, having good offensive stats while amoongus is helpless once its spores something, and its higher physical bulk makes it arguably the best Terrakion answer in the tier and deals with it a lot better than amoongus. it is true that most of the time the 2 are interchangeable, but Tangrowth has several key advantages over amoongus which is why it should remain A+.

to A, agree: while bulu is still a threat and can provide its team with grassy terrain support, it just feels out of place compared to the other mons in A+ rank. Its not bad, but the meta has a solid amount of things going against bulu and A rank just fits better.

to A-, disagree: Idk I'm pretty indifferent on this one, but rhyperior hasn't really stuck out as A- due to its less than average defensive typing. It helps answer zera and non energy ball victini but struggles with the grasses and waters. It has a pretty flexible movepool, and it would make sense if it did rise to A-, but I personally slightly lean toward keeping it in B+ as of now.

to B, agree: Tried this thing out and its pretty good. Screws with zera and provides scald pressure plus knock, rocks, and toxic. Underrated mon and B fits a bit better for this guy. It even can pressure with grasses with sludge bomb, basically read Take Azelfie's post a few posts above and you'll get it, so yeah toad for B.

to C+ or universal C rank, agree: Firstly I think there should be a universal C rank, already said this but most of the stuff isn't that different from the others to where one is a subrank higher than the other. Just nuke C-, get rid of a few C ranks that have been previously nominated, and make the rest into C. Anyway dropping this because latias got banned, otherwise it would have stayed B- imo. Nothing really to say, its food for scizor, can easily get u-turned on, and has a lack of recover. C ranks fit it better.

to higher, agree: C+ is a bit unfair, though I think it should be B- at max because while fire moves give it a niche, offensive zam is better. Anyway I'm seconding mantis's post above, go read that, but yeah A- is a bit too much and I think B- is most appropriate for Azelf.
My own nominations:

to S: Ok so Victini is actually super good, cant believe I considered nomming it down before. Latias leaving freed up competition, and victini is versatile at what it does. Choice sets are threatening, but boots are the best set because it has such a wide, unpredictable movepool that can take any answer by surprise, being able to go physical and special. Send in quaqsire? dies to energy ball. Chansey? Dead by V-Create. It has solid bulk even uninvested at 100/100/100. There's just so much it can do and alongside zeraora and scizor it is one of the best mons in the metagame and should rise to S.

to A: I'm sorry star child. Jirachi was already on the decline but now with Latias gone its splashability has been limited a bit. Its still a great answer to things like nihilego and zam, but latias being gone makes it a tad bit worse and it should drop to A this coming change.

to A: This bird is pretty fat. Being one of the better answers to Terrakion and an all around great physicals wall makes skarm very good in the current metagame. Its so good that OU has seen its potential and even decided to raise it above the threshold lol. I honestly have nothing much to say except this thing should rise to A, great spiker and phaser as well, helps against cheesy HO teams.

to B-: Not attached to this nom, but Latias being banned hurts Stakataka as it was one of the better answers to it considering it barely ran aura sphere. Its one of the worst mons in B and I think B- suits it better, if anyone has strong opposition and wants to defend it in B go for it but imo it should be B-. Once again not attacked so if the VR team thinks differently I don't really care, just wanted to put this out there in case anyone agrees.

to B-: This guy sucks mega balls. Zeraora, scizor, and terrakion being super good hurts it, and in general doesn't provide much utility compared to other fairies or defoggers. It was an ok answer to Latias but that's not here anymore so yeah, drop it to B-.

to UR: Pretty poor defensive utility, outclassed as a smasher by cloyster due to better bulk, plus zera and grasses everywhere hurt it a lot. There are plenty of better options like gyarados or azumarill for water types on hyper offensive teams too. Its pretty bad and I'd unrank it honestly.
Nominations of unranked Pokémon:
to C: First I want to credit Moltracer with this idea. Basically sableye acts on stall teams to give them a counter to cosmic power body press mew which otherwise can break through stall with enough boosts. It also can lock sweepers in with encore or will o wisp physical threats. While it does have a niche on stall teams, it still is very frail and isn't even a staple, but I think if something like klefki or durant can be ranked then so can sableye. Not gonna provide replays atm but if you've faced moltracer on the high ladder you get what I'm talking about.

to C: Tyrantrum I feel has a solid niche on hyper offense teams. In short, head smash go brrr. In longer terms, After a dragon dance it outspeed adamant zeraora, and with powerful attacks like head smash, outrage, and close combat alongside a decent speed tier being around the same speed is bulu, I feel tyrantrum has some merits in the current UU metagame, being decently bluky on the physical side and just nailing things with rock head head smash. Its not prefect or anything, it probably will reside in the universal C ranks, but I really do think tyrantrum should be ranked at least. I'll probably edit this post with a few replays since it isn't as obvious as sableye on getting ranked.
EDIT: Hope the VR team sees this, but I want to plug

to B rank. Starmie has a spectacular matchup against offensive teams, being able to beat half the tier 1v1. It has a wide movepool and fantastic speed tier, allowing it to beat common defoggers, rockers, and threats like terrakion and keldeo. A pivot set with boots can also spin hazards, absorb status, and pivot out with flip turn activating natural cure. It isn't game breaking, but I feel Starmie has untapped potential, I think its way better than it rank indicates this to be and I nom it to rise at least a sub rank to B for the time being.

That's it! Leave your thoughts down below on these nominations and whether you agree or disagree with them. This will probably be my last big post before a VR update happens which should be soon considering its nearly been a month since the last one. Anyway, catch ya later.

 

[a12qsd too]

Scyther unranked --> b-

Scyther has a lot of notable flaws like a quad weakness to rocks, questionable bulk and coverage which makes it pretty bad vs steels and the Rhyperior matchup. But scyther has a very interesting niche as a banded technician boosted dual wingbeats hitter. it can 2hko a non defensive investested rotom varient with dual wingbeats and can deal with most balances that exist right now on its own. It also has a good speed tier. Also, its primary flaw in struggling to hit steels can be made up by pairing it with magnezone. since scyther learns knock off, it can knock off potential shed shells so that the next time a steel tries to come in to check scyther, it gets u-turned on then magnezone trapped. Since most teams only scyther answer tends to be a steel type, after that it can punch wholes in a vast majority of teams. It still has flaws like issues vs Rhyperior and the fact that stealth rocks severely weakens it but, Rhyperior has iffy recovery and can be chipped by u-turn (which can also make it momentum fodder since you can just send in another breaker which deals with Rhyperior on the u-turn. This primarily leaves scyther with a giant weakness to stealth rocks which can be prevented by using substantial rock removal/prevention support. Obviously scyther needs a lot of team support in order to be good in uu but if its given the team support that it needs, it can become one of the more threatening mons in the tier as a breaker with over base 100 speed and pivot move access. Its not a fantastic mon but to rank things like charizard over it which need even more team support in order to be viable seems a little off.

 

[iceblazer]

Scyther unranked --> b-

Scyther has a lot of notable flaws like a quad weakness to rocks, questionable bulk and coverage which makes it pretty bad vs steels and the Rhyperior matchup. But scyther has a very interesting niche as a banded technician boosted dual wingbeats hitter. it can 2hko a non defensive investested rotom varient with dual wingbeats and can deal with most balances that exist right now on its own. It also has a good speed tier. Also, its primary flaw in struggling to hit steels can be made up by pairing it with magnezone. since scyther learns knock off, it can knock off potential shed shells so that the next time a steel tries to come in to check scyther, it gets u-turned on then magnezone trapped. Since most teams only scyther answer tends to be a steel type, after that it can punch wholes in a vast majority of teams. It still has flaws like issues vs Rhyperior and the fact that stealth rocks severely weakens it but, Rhyperior has iffy recovery and can be chipped by u-turn (which can also make it momentum fodder since you can just send in another breaker which deals with Rhyperior on the u-turn. This primarily leaves scyther with a giant weakness to stealth rocks which can be prevented by using substantial rock removal/prevention support. Obviously scyther needs a lot of team support in order to be good in uu but if its given the team support that it needs, it can become one of the more threatening mons in the tier as a breaker with over base 100 speed and pivot move access. Its not a fantastic mon but to rank things like charizard over it which need even more team support in order to be viable seems a little off.

One question. Why would I run Scyther over Scizor? As far as I can see, Scizor is not quad weak to rocks and brings actual defensive utility to a team. While it can’t 2HKO non-defensive Rotom forms with an unboosted BP, Scizor can simply pivot into other teammates that can easily do the job just as well as Scyther.

 

[a12qsd too]

One question. Why would I run Scyther over Scizor? As far as I can see, Scizor is not quad weak to rocks and brings actual defensive utility to a team. While it can’t 2HKO non-defensive Rotom forms with an unboosted BP, Scizor can simply pivot into other teammates that can easily do the job just as well as Scyther.

because scizor is significantly slower to the point its primary stab is bullet punch rather than u-turn. also scizor doesn't recieve a stab boost to dual wingbeat which results in some key missed 2hkos like rotom I described. Scyther and scizor are very different and can't be compared, one is a fast wallbreaker and the other is a slow defensive utility mon which can sweep late game if enough things are weakened. They just fill different roles for teams, if your team needs a speedy balance breaker scyther is better. If your team needs a bulky late game cleaner scizor is better.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Jirachi to S-

Jirachi after the ban of latias is allowed to explore many different sets, such as CM, mixed, scarf, or being a rocker. It has a steel and psychic typing that allows it to switch into moves such as Bulu's stabs, Kyurem's Ice beam, Salamence's hurricanes, Have a resistance to rocks, immunity to toxic spikes, and Psychic from the many psychic types in the tier. it has an all around base 100 stats which is excelent in letting it take a hit from many pokemon into the tier, even sponging hits such as Earth power from kyurem, shadow ball from alakazam, and mystical fire from hattrene. Choice scarf allows it to pressure many pokemon in the tier via its 60% flinching iron head, mixed allows it to use its coverage to hit every pokemon in the tier, Rocker jirachi allows it to get up rocks and pivot with u-turn to a teammate. jirachi is such a versitile pokemon that it dosent have that many checks in the tier, some of its "checks" such as krook, celesteela, and rotom heat can take on choice scarf sets but dont like eating a body slam or a trick to the face.

I want jirachi to either be S- because its better than azu, bulu, or kommo-o, but it is not on the same level as zeraora.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I nominate Victini to s tier: Just like Zeraora, it is nigh impossible to wall this thing due to not being able to predict what the heck this thing has, whatever you try to wall it with it most likely has coverage for it depending on the set. Try to use quagsire to wall it, it runs energy ball to check it. Trying to use g-moltres will result in it likely getting bolt striked. Stakataka gets slammed with v-create, kommo-o gets slammed with zen headbutt, so on and so forth. Even stealth rocks are unreliable against this thing due to hdb being a great option for it. My point being, this thing has coverage to hit literally everything really hard in the meta. It is also one of the few mons that can just destroy Jirachi with relative ease. Not to mention besides boots, it can run scarf and band for other mons, but I personally like boots. Anyway, my point being this thing is disgustingly good in uu.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Jirachi to S-

Jirachi after the ban of latias is allowed to explore many different sets, such as CM, mixed, scarf, or being a rocker. It has a steel and psychic typing that allows it to switch into moves such as Bulu's stabs, Kyurem's Ice beam, Salamence's hurricanes, Have a resistance to rocks, immunity to toxic spikes, and Psychic from the many psychic types in the tier. it has an all around base 100 stats which is excelent in letting it take a hit from many pokemon into the tier, even sponging hits such as Earth power from kyurem, shadow ball from alakazam, and mystical fire from hattrene. Choice scarf allows it to pressure many pokemon in the tier via its 60% flinching iron head, mixed allows it to use its coverage to hit every pokemon in the tier, Rocker jirachi allows it to get up rocks and pivot with u-turn to a teammate. jirachi is such a versitile pokemon that it dosent have that many checks in the tier, some of its "checks" such as krook, celesteela, and rotom heat can take on choice scarf sets but dont like eating a body slam or a trick to the face.

I want jirachi to either be S- because its better than azu, bulu, or kommo-o, but it is not on the same level as zeraora.

It is also not quite on victini's level either

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

victini is nigh unwallable but struggles vs HO, and very offensively based teams since it dosent have many opportunities to get on the field and dish out damage, Choice scarf is nice but it is easily abusable after a drop, and bolt strike isnt exactly OHKO'ing anything and it is weaker than V-create even against something like rotom wash. Choice band has very limited counterplay.

 

[KM]

Unranked --> C+

I've been playing around with a lot of different Glastrier teams since I came back, and I think it absolutely deserves a spot on this list. Reading upthread, Hilomilo took it off for the dual reason that A. it's only good on dedicated Trick Room teams, and B. Trick Room teams aren't good.

I'd like to push back on both of those notions, but especially the first! Glastrier is excellent on TR teams, of course, but even with no experience playing with it I feel like it's pretty obviously not useless outside of a TR context. If someone described a Pokemon I'd never heard of as "Only relevant under Trick Room", I'd assume not only that they were an offensive pokemon with low speed, but also that they were defensively frail and fodder in all other contexts. Glastrier doesn't fit this archetype. With 100/130/110 defenses and no reason to invest in Speed EVs, there are very few moves in the entire tier that can OHKO it. I could run a whole bunch of calcs to prove my point, but I'll leave it at this -- Terrakion doesn't OHKO without Life Orb or Band, Band Scizor BP doesn't kill even after rocks 95% of the time, and even unboosted V-Create from Victini has a 20% chance to not kill Glastrier with no defense investments at all.

I'm not saying this to suggest you pick Glastrier as your Victini check, or anything like that. My point more generally is that even in the worst games, Glastrier very often will live one or several hits and hit back harder. With 140 attack and phenomenal offensive coverage (i usually run Icicle Crash / High Horsepower / CC but there's plenty of other options), there's very little in the tier it can't break through.

In a practical sense, what does this mean for teams / cores that Glastrier excels on? For starters, Glastrier works great on volt-turn cores with partners like Keldeo and Rotom-W, who can bait Amoonguss, Chansey, Bulu, etc switchins that Glastrier can use to get a powerful shot off. On the same teams, it can be used alongside Scizor or Victini to punish switchins like Kommo-O (body press does 50ish, LO Crash kills with minimal chip), Mence, etc. On the other end, it generates enough offensive pressure towards the things that can kill it (Conkeldurr, Victini, Shao) that it makes a great partner for Pokemon like Chandelure that can switch in on the V-Creates and Close Combats or force 50/50s.

My final point, and one that ties in to the team that I spent the most time playing Glastrier with (a team that got me to my current top 25 ladder position) is that Trick Room isn't an all or nothing archetype in the way that it's being framed, and Pokemon like Glastrier that thrive in Trick Room but function well outside of it as well excel on teams that have Trick Room mini-cores or OTR sets without being a dedicated Trick Room Team. Here's the team I'm currently running -- https://pokepast.es/398557a8c7368738. I'm running OTR Victini, which is a great set in its own right but often times will die or switch out before the trick room turns are done -- in those cases, I have Glastrier (and slowbro-galar to a lesser extent) to pick up the remaining turns and become TR sweepers -- but if that doesn't happen, it still functions as a wallbreaker and tank. This isn't a unique concept to this gen or to this tier -- there are plenty of offense teams from the past that utilize minimal trick room support and one or two dedicated slow damage dealers alongside traditional fast offensive pokemon. For example, I know Kokoloko used to run a team back in BW -- traditional froslass spikes offense with OTR Cofag and Band Snorlax, etc, etc. All this is to say -- while Trick Room /as an archetype/ might not be as viable right now, Trick Room exists on teams and in contexts outside of all-or-nothing ones, and Glastrier fits really seamlessly on teams looking to abuse TR without committing to a full 3-setters 3-sweepers build. Other OTR Pokemon you could explore this build with might be Reuniclus, Slowking, WP Necrozma, or Staka.

As much as I've played around with it, there's definitely a lot more space to explore Glastrier sets as well. I've mostly run SD + 3 attacks LO, but there's definitely more room to explore. In terms of other moves, Megahorn, Avalanche, Assurance, and Throat Chop are all probably worth looking at in certain contexts, and item wise I could easily see Occa, Chople, Boots, and EBelt all making sense. Glastrier could also be a great addition to a screens team, amplifying its natural bulk and letting it do ridiculous things like staying in on Victini. I don't personally think it's worth it, but you could also look into speed investment for Tangrowth / Marowak-Alola, etc.

anyways this post is way too long but bullet points are glastrier good glastrier fat trick room not all or nothing rank glastrier please

 

[BolTingBlazie]

victini is nigh unwallable but struggles vs HO, and very offensively based teams since it dosent have many opportunities to get on the field and dish out damage, Choice scarf is nice but it is easily abusable after a drop, and bolt strike isnt exactly OHKO'ing anything and it is weaker than V-create even against something like rotom wash. Choice band has very limited counterplay.

Good point, but that is probably still good enough for s considering it is nigh unwallable

 

[BigFatMantis]

So I was going to make a post opining on nearly all of the current rankings, since it's been almost a week since Latias ban, but first just quickly want to say that I don't think we should be clogging this thread with arguments because it makes it more difficult to navigate when looking for nominations. If you have a nomination, you should make it, and if you have a single agree/disagree response for a nomination you should post that too, but I think people should refrain from going beyond that. Otherwise it is just clutter and makes it more difficult for myself and others to look through the post for actual nominations. Just my opinion though.

On to the nominations:


Zeraora - S to S

Saw some discussion above about moving Zeraora down to A+, but I think it is easily the best Pokemon in the entire tier and can have so many different options that it seems it has something for every possible situation. Can't see any reason to move it down.


Scizor - A+ to S

At first I disagreed with making Scizor an S rank, because there seemed to be sufficient counterplay to it (Skarmory, Celesteela, Rotom-H, Blaze Kick Zeraora, etc.). But once you use the maximum offensive SD + Life Orb + BP + QA + Knock there's almost nothing that can stop this beyond Skarmory. Even Victini and Rotom-H take 60% from a Quick Attack at +2. Choice Band set is also a great big priority nuke unlike any other. I think Scizor is, without a doubt, the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier. Zeraora is better and easier to fit on most teams, but Scizor is more dangerous to face and when you see it you will often get a feeling of doom that shall await you if you do not handle this correctly.

After this, I think A+/A/A- needs a bit of a rework as such:

- Keep A+
- Move from A+ to A
- Move from A- to A
- Move from A- to B+ (or lower)

That's a lot, so let me try to summarize the explanations:

Jirachi is just not that threatening anymore with Latias gone. It's annoying with Iron Head, but other than that it's just a good defensive rocker with some utility. That's fine, but it's not nearly as threatening as all of the other A+ rnaks like Azu/Victini/Terrakion, and I don't see why it should be on the same rank s them. It can run many different sets, such as CM, Stored Power, etc., but none of those sets are particularly great. There will typically always be something else that will do that set better (Mew does Stored Power sets better, for example). It is by no means bad, but the ante has been upped in A+ and it cannot keep up.

I already explained above on Bulu and Tangrowth - but to sum it up, they also are not on the level of Azu/Victini/Kommo/Terrakion/Mence. Tangrowth is a great tank, and may be a bit better than Amoonguss, but I don't think it's so unbreakable that A+ is where it should go. In fact, on the Specially Defensive side, I think Celesteela is more problematic to deal with, and that's A rank.

Kyurem, Lycanroc-D, and Moltres-G meanwhile are all very underrated. Kyurem deals SE or neutral damage basically the entire tier with Freeze Dry + Earth Power. Lycanroc-D is faster than Terrakion with the same coverage, but less bulk and less CC damage, so it remains a major threat. It also has Accelerock which hits so many big threats like Victini, Gyarados, Moltres-G, etc. And speaking of Moltres-G - it is such a ridiculous Pokemon in many situations. It can 6-0 entire stall teams with Rest on its own - don't even need any support. All three of these mons are definitely better than A- and should bump up to A.

Tentacruel and Diggersby I don't understand why they are A-. Tentacruel is so passive and often confused at its role on a team. It used to be a surefire answer to Celesteela (still is), but people have learned how to play around Celesteela and don't need to resort to Tentacruel anymore. It's the only spinner in the tier, but if it doesn't burn with scald or poison with sludge then it's doing almost nothing at all to you. Diggersby, meanwhile, is really funny, and I'd be happy if it was actually good. But there's often little reason to use it - bad defensive typing means it will be OHKO'd by most offensive threats in the tier, and bad Speed tier means it needs Scarf to actually be able to outspeed these threats or rely solely on SD + Quick Attack.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

So I was going to make a post opining on nearly all of the current rankings, since it's been almost a week since Latias ban, but first just quickly want to say that I don't think we should be clogging this thread with arguments because it makes it more difficult to navigate when looking for nominations. If you have a nomination, you should make it, and if you have a single agree/disagree response for a nomination you should post that too, but I think people should refrain from going beyond that. Otherwise it is just clutter and makes it more difficult for myself and others to look through the post for actual nominations. Just my opinion though.

On to the nominations:


Zeraora - S to S

Saw some discussion above about moving Zeraora down to A+, but I think it is easily the best Pokemon in the entire tier and can have so many different options that it seems it has something for every possible situation. Can't see any reason to move it down.


Scizor - A+ to S

At first I disagreed with making Scizor an S rank, because there seemed to be sufficient counterplay to it (Skarmory, Celesteela, Rotom-H, Blaze Kick Zeraora, etc.). But once you use the maximum offensive SD + Life Orb + BP + QA + Knock there's almost nothing that can stop this beyond Skarmory. Even Victini and Rotom-H take 60% from a Quick Attack at +2. Choice Band set is also a great big priority nuke unlike any other. I think Scizor is, without a doubt, the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier. Zeraora is better and easier to fit on most teams, but Scizor is more dangerous to face and when you see it you will often get a feeling of doom that shall await you if you do not handle this correctly.

After this, I think A+/A/A- needs a bit of a rework as such:

- Keep A+
- Move from A+ to A
- Move from A- to A
- Move from A- to B+ (or lower)

That's a lot, so let me try to summarize the explanations:

Jirachi is just not that threatening anymore with Latias gone. It's annoying with Iron Head, but other than that it's just a good defensive rocker with some utility. That's fine, but it's not nearly as threatening as all of the other A+ rnaks like Azu/Victini/Terrakion, and I don't see why it should be on the same rank s them. It can run many different sets, such as CM, Stored Power, etc., but none of those sets are particularly great. There will typically always be something else that will do that set better (Mew does Stored Power sets better, for example). It is by no means bad, but the ante has been upped in A+ and it cannot keep up.

I already explained above on Bulu and Tangrowth - but to sum it up, they also are not on the level of Azu/Victini/Kommo/Terrakion/Mence. Tangrowth is a great tank, and may be a bit better than Amoonguss, but I don't think it's so unbreakable that A+ is where it should go. In fact, on the Specially Defensive side, I think Celesteela is more problematic to deal with, and that's A rank.

Kyurem, Lycanroc-D, and Moltres-G meanwhile are all very underrated. Kyurem deals SE or neutral damage basically the entire tier with Freeze Dry + Earth Power. Lycanroc-D is faster than Terrakion with the same coverage, but less bulk and less CC damage, so it remains a major threat. It also has Accelerock which hits so many big threats like Victini, Gyarados, Moltres-G, etc. And speaking of Moltres-G - it is such a ridiculous Pokemon in many situations. It can 6-0 entire stall teams with Rest on its own - don't even need any support. All three of these mons are definitely better than A- and should bump up to A.

Tentacruel and Diggersby I don't understand why they are A-. Tentacruel is so passive and often confused at its role on a team. It used to be a surefire answer to Celesteela (still is), but people have learned how to play around Celesteela and don't need to resort to Tentacruel anymore. It's the only spinner in the tier, but if it doesn't burn with scald or poison with sludge then it's doing almost nothing at all to you. Diggersby, meanwhile, is really funny, and I'd be happy if it was actually good. But there's often little reason to use it - bad defensive typing means it will be OHKO'd by most offensive threats in the tier, and bad Speed tier means it needs Scarf to actually be able to outspeed these threats or rely solely on SD + Quick Attack.

I feel like victini if anything should get promoted to s, as while its not quite on zeraora's level, its really damn close. The sheer unpredictability of victini is still what makes it so threatening right now (Especially with latias gone), sure it may have lower attacking stats than zeraora, but it has decent bulk to make up for that. Both zeraora and victini get shut down by pretty much the same sets, but most teams running them run other mons to counter those teams, so yeah, victini is an easy s for me. Basically any hyper offense team that has victini and or zeraora is pretty hard to counterplay since hypothetically they can threaten literally anything in the entire tier. The point being, the unpredictabillity of these two makes it difficult to counterplay against them, and to counterplay against them, you need the right team, and if they have a counter, it gives victini and zeraora practically free sweeping and breaking opportunities.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Also zera pairs very nicely with victini, they form a volt turn core and victini crushes tang, nidoqueen, krook and rhyperior with energy ball. While zera knocks items off, and pressures slowking, and is generally very fast, victini is such a threat that from team preview it is almost impossible to tell what set it is, since it can be special, CB, Choice scarf, or lead final gambit it is very unpredictable, and i think it deserves S

 

[gglrg]

Alright time to make some noms.

A- to B+ or lower
Honestly this mon is really passive and doesn't really do much in games. Sure it still can switch in on a celesteela with liquid ooze but noone really complains about celesteela anymore because people now know how to play around it or beat it and it's the only spinner in the tier (not counting anything lower than uu), it just doesn't warrant a place in A- anymore.

A- to A
Even with zeraora, victini everywhere skarmory is really good right now in my opinion. Its a good check to mons like dragon dance salamence, gyarados, tapu bulu, mamoswine, lycanroc dusk and a soft check to terrakion. It's probably the best spiker in the tier and sturdy is a nice ability to tank things like v create and possibly toxic/spikes/stealth rock or whirlwind on the opponent. We will probably lose this soon but it's pretty good where it is now.

A- to A MURDER DOG IS FUN MURDER DOG IS FUN. This mon has so much going for it. Great speed tier outspeeding the likes of terrakion non-scarf victini and thundurus t, etc. It's coverage is pretty good with the likes of crunch hitting psychics like mew and jirachi, close combat destroying steels like bisharp and getting some damage off vs celesteela and scizor, psychic fangs for hitting one of its best checks in amoonguss and also nidoqueen and lastly fire fang for scizor, tangrowth and skarmory. Of course it can't run all of this but it can switch them up depending on a matchup. Accelerock is a great priority move for it especially with a tough claws boost and STAB allowing it to beat sweepers like moltres galar, gyarados and salamence. So overall i think this should go up a rank (also increase it's usage on ladder I feel its too low).

Ps: Here are some more noms that I agree with but don't want to put it into detail.

to C
to A
to A
to S
to B
from C+ to higher

 

[Totomon]

I would like to nominate a mon that I honestly cant believe that is unranked

UR to C
Crobat is definetively not a super star of the metagame (thats why I'm nomming C) however it has a useful niche as an incredibly fast deffoger being the second fastest mon just behind zeraora, this allows it to check incredibly threatening mons like Alakazam, Keldeo and even counter Bulu.
Obviously the bat won't be your only counterplay against them, however those 3 can muscle past their checks with enough boosts and crobat helps to aliviate the pressure of them while also bringing a fast defog.
Talking about its abilities as a deffoger it can reliably keep rocks off from Kommo-o (something that its competition, noivern cant really do because of toxic) and prevent Azelf from even setting them up thanks to its incredible speed tier, that last one being a big one since azelf is known as the best way to guarantee fast rocks, all of this while not being completely useless against krookodile and nidoqueen.
Lastly with infiltrator it can manage to RK unsuspecting mons behind a substitue or grab KO's that other mons can't for its ability to by pass screens.

Now for a bunch some noms I agree/disagree with:

to A-, Agree: It feasts on every defensive mon that isnt named chansey and most teams counterplay to chandy is to just force it out, all of that is highly abusable by substitute + boots sets which btw basically 6-0 sun and stall, making chandelure a mon that is always worth considering when building a team and not just a gimmick/one trick pony. (It is also able to check victini and abuse its stupid V move by taking a total of 0% and gaining a boost, which discourages mindless spamming by the tini user)
to B, Agree: Messing with both rotoms and zeraora are incredible traits while providing knock off, rocks and toxic. B- is just way to low for all the things it brings
to A, Agree: SubRoost is highly infuriating to play around and it can slowly wither the opposing team with just two moves, and the game can completely change with just one lucky freeze which is bound to happen since mons like Heatom and scizor switch in to freeze-dry way too many times.
to A, Agree: Bulu is still an amazing mon but its incredibly abusable speed and other metagame trends like most zeraora's bringing blaze kick give bulu a lot of trouble, it is just not at the same level as other A+ mons.
to B+, Agree: Others have said it and I will say it again, tenta is just way to passive depending on scald burns and poisons, its main job to thwart celesteela isnt as valuable now and other mons outclass it at this role (aka slowking).
to higher, Agree: Why is this B+, its one of the best sweepers and stallbreakers I get that bounce sucks and even when it gets a bunch of boosts you can still play around it but that doesnt take away from its inmense threat level, I would put it in A- at the very minimum.
to higher, Agree: Another incredibly baffling placement, I agree its offensive sets are just...bad however its still the best suicide lead and even just that small role should at least place it in a B
to UR, Agree: Cresselia is bad, CM sets are completely outclassed by reuniclus and even if we dont take that into account it will never sweep, its other role its TR but we unranked all of the other TR stuff so why is cresselia still here? (I would even say that porygon 2 and slowking outclass it as TR setter so pls just take cress out of here)
to B+, Disagree: When venusaur gets going it is incredibly scary, but getting venusaur to work is just very hard, you are relying on a bunch of 50/50 and that can result in your sun getting stalled out which makes venusaur completely useless (all of this ignoring that Kommo-o and chansey exist), torkoal is not very good as a weather setter and it literally is just a sun + rocks bot, nothing else. A big part on why sun is viable is because victini under sun is just outright stupid, however venu and torkoal can be unreliable.
to A, Disagree: Tang is still worthy of A+ and I personally think its better than amoonguss, It performs a better job at checking zeraora, krookodile, conkeldurr, crawdaunt and terrakion while not being as passive by bringing the annoying knock off, a point to using amoonguss is because it beats tangrowth 1v1 which I think speaks about their viability.

 

[Morsel]

Hey.

Been a while.

I want to make 2 quick nominations, and 1 post going into more detail on a nomination mentioned in the discussion slate. I also want to briefly agree/disagree with some of the nominations here (just a simple agreement/disagreement -- I have nothing new to add). As a preface, this is based off of my thoughts, which are based entirely on both my impressions playing with and against all of these Pokémon. I've tested everything that I'm going to talk about, and have used multiple different teams and alts throughout the testing process (below). My alts (aside from my main account) are "Morceau" and "Elon Mosk."

Testing process

Scizor: A+ --> S

I've tried a few different Scizor sets (CB, life orb SD, bulky SD; CB is my favourite), and all of them feel extremely strong when played well. CB Scizor is especially hard to deal with as most of Scizor's defensive checks this gen either lack reliable recovery (Kommo-o, Celesteela, Zeraora, Keldeo, Rotom-H, Rotom-W, Volcanion), hate getting their boots/item knocked off (Salamence, Celesteela), or both. Stronger checks like Amoonguss and especially Skarmory work, but are usually predictably forced in, which you can take advange of (I.e., doubling out instead of U-turning).

All it takes to put you in a great position is to knock off their CB Scizor check once, and against most teams you will have a strong chance to sweep late-game. Scizor also has a ton of defensive utility (I run enough speed to outrun Adamant Azumarill) and can usually trade some HP with an offensive Pokemon and OHKO it back, or serve as a one-time check to things like Alakazam, Tapu Bulu, and Kyurem. SD Scizor under screens is also extremely potent, and while I haven't seen many bulky Defog/utility Scizors on the ladder, I'm sure that set is under-explored and has some use on certain teams. To reiterate, I think that Scizor should be moved up because of how simple and easy-to-execute the gameplan is for its CB set, among the other benefits/utility Scizor provides (defensive utility, momentum, knock off support, SD sets).

Hatterene: B+ --> A-

I'm surprised to see Hatterene so low. I've been mainly using its Assault Vest set (run enough speed for Amoonguss; max HP and SpA, modest nature) with Nuzzle, and its been extremely effective as a form of bulky hazard control that is a strong check to some very common threats like defensive rocks Kommo-o, Moltres-Galar, Kyurem, and Alakazam (provided you don't switch hard into Shadow Ball). A lot of teams rely on Skarmory, Jirachi, Victini, Celestella as their one check, all of which hate getting paralyzed or taking repeated Mystical Fires. Offensive teams particularly struggle to switch into Hatterene. I also like how it provides a form of passive hazard control, which reduces the need for dedicated hazard removal. I've also seen OTR and calm-mind variants, which I have personally never used but found them hard to deal with when facing them. Since AV Hatterene is easy to slap onto a BO team, it doesn't need as much support as other Pokemon in B+ (use it as a part of a standard fairy/steel/dragon core). This is why I think that A- is a more appropriate rank for it.

Salamence: A+ --> S

Salamence's versatility, ability to fit on all team archetypes, and ability to force your opponent to guess your set (as Pokemon like Skarmory who check physical DD variants lose to mixed sets; Primarina checks special sets but loses to dual-wingbeat variants) make it S worthy to me. Relating to my first point: DD Salamence fits well on screens or even on BO as a win-condition; mixed sets fit well on BO; defensive defog sets work well on BO, balance, and stall; offensive defog is great on BO; and scarf has a place on BO as well. The bottom line is that there are a ton of very different, viable Salamence sets, which makes Salamence extremely customizable.

At team preview, it is obnoxious to scout around Salamence, since one wrong guess can cost you your check, or even lose if they get a DD up. No other A+ ranked Pokemon shares this trait of having several extremely viable sets and ability to easily beat its counters. On top of how easy it is to throw on a team, that is why I believe Salamence is S rank.

Thoughts on Discussion Slate and arguments posted in this thread:

Zeraora: S --> A+: Agree

Lycanroc-D: A- --> A: Agree

Kyurem: A- --> A: Agree

Bisharp A- --> A: Agree

Suicune B+ --> A-: Agree

Gyarados: B+ --> A: Agree
Glastrier Unranked --> C+: Agree

Chandelure: B+-->A-: Disagree

Azelf: C+ --> A-: Disagree (keep at C+)

Victini: A+ --> S: Disagree

Jirachi: A+ --> A: Disagree

Krookodile A --> A+: Disagree


Thanks for reading

 

[Celebiii]

First post in here!

Points I agree with:
Scizor A+ -> S

Scizor is once again incredible. It has a variety of great EV spreads it can go for and BP is incredible for keeping many of the fast and/or powerful threats in the tier like Terrakion, Kyurem, Alakazam, and Lycanroc-Dusk in check. Every Pokemon must always be wary of dropping into BP range throughout a game lest they be revenged by Scizor. I have found the Bulky SD set to be particularly amazing lately - the threat of an SD must always be kept in mind lest Scizor sets up on a predicted switch and blows through a weakened team. Scizor aids a team against virtually every playstyle as well with BP. An invaluable member of the meta.

Krookodile A -> A+

Scarf Krook in particular is such a constant threat to take into account in the teambuilder. Its speed stat of 466 is really hard to get around without specifically trying to outspeed Krook, which is more of an overextension than most mons can afford. Its STAB combination again helps keep many fast threats in check and it fits on tons of teams. Intimidate, SR potential, EQ, KO, and your choice of coverage means Krook will be useful in basically every match it finds itself in.

Nihilego A- -> B+
The biggest issue with Nihi is that it finds its sweeps cut short so many times. From what I have seen the Meteor Beam set is the most popular, but after it boosts up, it is often either forced out or comes up short of a KO on the incoming mon. This is quite often due to a lack of immediate Rock STAB, so I feel that a set of Meteor Beam + Power Gem + 2 coverage moves may be worth using to shore up this issue. Even with that however, Nihi then runs into trouble for its last 2 coverage moves - it wants all of Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, and Sludge Wave to allow its sweep to continue. Even with the appropriate coverage, Nihi runs into issues in being revenged by the common priority running around in the tier due to its poor physical bulk. I don't think Nihi is bad but it requires team support and some good play to really get consistent results.

Zarude B- -> B
Zarude definitely requires teams to be thoughtfully built around it to work but it provides an excellent mix of speed and power with its Choice Scarf set. Dark STAB is amazing to be throwing around, while coverage in Power Whip and Close Combat lets it break through thicker mons and U-Turn helps maintain momentum. It misses being faster than a lot of things in the IOA meta as it means the Boots set is not as good, and it will be worn down by repeatedly coming into hazards and taking chip damage throughout the match, but Zarude is still a solid pick.

Gyarados B+ -> A-
Agreed with what has been said by others - I don't know why this is down in B+ right now. Gyara's good bulk and snowball potential with Moxie make it an amazing wincon, and even if it does not win the game, you can be sure it is going to rip a hole in the opoosing team. IMO it is only hampered by the choice between Bounce and Power Whip and the plentiful priority and electric types in the tier, but none of them like to come in on Gyara.

Moltres-Galar A- -> A
Extremely scary sweeper as we've seen through the Latias suspect and even afterward. It is not as one-dimensional as it was once thought either - Goltres can opt to give itself more opportunities to come in with HDB yes, but it can also opt to go absolutely nuclear with a Weakness Policy, and can become surprisingly difficult to KO with the more recent RestTalk set. It has enough bulk to not drop to most SE hits and one of its two boosting moves is often all it needs to run through many teams. Absolutely must be accounted for when building.

Kyurem A- -> A+
I'm gonna go a step beyond the A rank nomination and nominate Kyurem for A+. This thing hits soo soo soo hard. 317 speed is fast enough to get around a good portion of the tier and Specs Freeze Dry cleaves through weakened teams. SubRoost is also incredible against balance and stall and misjudging Kyurem to be the Specs variant when it is SubRoost can be very difficult to recover from. It doesn't fit on EVERY team but it does fit on many and IMO is just as scary to run into as many of the other things in A+.

Tentacruel A- -> B
I'm also gonna go a step beyond with Tentacruel and say this thing should be in B. It keeps a valuable role as one of the only viable hazard removers, which UU is desperate for more of nowadays, but it finds itself dying prematurely very often, and its own hazards in Toxic Spikes do very little in the current metagame with everything that is unaffected by them: Steel-, Poison-, and Flying-Types, Pokemon with Levitate, and Boots users, all of which are common in the current meta.

Lycanroc-Dusk A- -> A
If Terrakion is in A+ there is absolutely no reason this thing should not be right below it. It does not have quite the raw power of Terrak but getting the jump on Terrak and Keldeo (and Alolan Ninetales to a much lesser extent) is amazing, as well as having strong priority in Accelerock that hits most things in the meta for neutral or SE damage. The LO set is best in my opinion but running into a sashed Lycanroc-Duck can be absolutely heartbreaking.

More small things:
Amoonguss A -> A+ Fat mushroom sleeps things, stays alive forever, and can do respectable damage with Sludge Bomb + Giga Drain + Foul Play. Should be in the same tier as Tangrowth.
Rotom-Wash B+ -> A- Just as good as its toaster cousin IMO. Has a great defensive typing and one of the best threats to getting rocks up.