Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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So, I'm only on low ladder cuz it's day 1 and I'm bad lol, but looking at the stuff on the radar, I think Flutter is def the biggest issue. I mean, tera is almost certainly not healthy either, but that's a whole mechanic and I'm not getting into that at 12:20 AM.

Whenever I'm in the teambuilder, I pretty much need to ask myself "is there a reason to use a special attacker that isn't Flutter?" And I usually find the answer's "not really." I mean, you can use more than one (I like pairing it with hydreigon) but I really feel its absence when I make a team without it. In game, it's like, "oh god, what the hell is this thing gonna do to me," since it has two fantastic stab moves and a bunch of great coverage. Tera just adds another dimension to the whole thing. I know a lot of people like choiced for good reason, but I ran heavy duty boots after I got too tired to try and keep hazards off and like, it works? This thing could be itemless and be a top mon.

Hound depends a bit too much on sand imo, and maybe Jolly is the wave but it doesn't really outrun the super-fast stuff, which I'd like my Sand Rush user to do. And it's Shadow Sneak is just not as strong as I'd like it to be a lot of the time even with band. Sitll, when it works, oh god does it work. Fighting Tera Blast + Trick is what I've been running in my last two slots, and the former is pretty helpful sometimes (I haven't really used trick yet oops).

Pal, Iron Valiant, and Roaring Moon are ones I'm also shakier on. When you use Pal right it definitely feels incredibly powerful, but at 1200 ladder you're not seeing optimal usage lol. Jet Punch is stupid good though and CC, Flip Turn, Wave Crash, and whatever else is just gravy. Maybe that's just the priority-heavy nature of the meta right now, but yeah. Valiant seems pretty strong, could see it getting banned. With a Steel Tera it sets up SD pretty easily, and with CC, Spirit Breaker, and Knock Off (which is a strong point all on its own) it breaks through stuff well. I haven't experimented with it much, but I can see how it could get out of hand down the line. Roaring Moon is like, eh? Like it seems a bit hit-or-miss, either it smacks you around or just kinda drops without doing much. I haven't used it much, so I don't have as much to say.

Lastly, this is almost certainly a case of low ladder being bad, but Cyclizar has been hot doodoo in every game I've played against it, Orthworm is the truth. It can actually take a hit and still Shed Tail, and I haven't found myself needing more than one most games. Body Press gives it an okay direct attack and Spikes is always cool too. There's also the fact that it's day 1 so some people just don't know how Earth Eater works, but even as people actually learn the new mechanics a Ground-immune pure Steel is just fantastic. Plus, look at that smile Orthworm's got. He's so happy to be here, tanking all kinds of hits and supporting your team. Cyclizar just gets hit by a stray attack and flops over, which is probably why he looks so mad.

Other quick stuff: Maushold and Tinkaton are bad memes, sand rush lycanroc is an even worse meme, klefki is a good meme, glimmora is dummy good at its job (4MSS is a headache though), hydreigon is legit, gholdengo is a mon to keep an eye on, meowscarada and kilowattrel have notably barely put in work whenever I've faced them, facing clodsire made me want to run hatterene, btw don't run hatterene, and my mono-Ice snow team dreams were absolutely crushed by Mamoswine not being in the dex, RIP the king. Hope I can keep up with this meta as it goes on, it has some great potential I feel.
 
Since I'm top 360 on the leaderboard, i should probably give my quick thoughts on "The Radar"

Palafin: needs to be banned. Bst is ridiculous. 160 attack + priority.

Houndstone: last respects is way too good. Ban the Pokémon. When we get confirmation on whether pokemon home get the move, we can reevaluate it.

Cyclizar: I thought it would be op but I honestly think it sucks. Orthworm is way better like borker223 said. Regardless, I don't think either are banworthy

flutter mane: bst + ability = ban

chien-pao: sucker punch + bst + ability = ban

roaring moon: I'm undecided. His dark type holds him back. Terra fixes that of course.

iron Valiant: a worse flutter mane, undecided on if banworthy or not
 
Wondering why Iron Bundle isn't on the watchlist lol

Granted it doesn't mesh well with the ho teams running the meta right now, however, there is no defensive counterplay to it whatsoever. While this is also the case for many of the other new additions from this gen, bundle is unique in the fact that it can pivot on nearly everything that would normally try to check it because of its absurd speed tier. This combined with its high special attack stat and unresisted stab combination with freeze dry makes it very difficult to justify running any kind of team that relies on a defensive core, as these styles often cannot run multiple threats that can force it to hard switch reliably. In fact, most teams I have made and played against struggle with this because there are all of three mons currently in the tier that can speed creep it without modifiers, one of which is electrode. These factors combined means it is very possible for the majority of non-purely offensive playstyles to be 6-0ed from preview because of the sheer deficit in momentum that stems from being forced to dance around something that will more than likely claim a kill every time it comes in.

The meta is still developing, and as of now nobody can really say for certain what the tier's landscape will look like after the initial set of bans. In my opinion, though, I think it would be far more interesting if there were a greater diversity of teams that could be used seriously in competitive play. From my standpoint it seems like bundle limits those options to a greater degree than is healthy for the development of a new meta.

tl:dr - Goofy silly penguin is being too whacky and gatekeeping the meta for too many playstyles. Ban Iron Bundle.
 
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Sorry if someone has already said this but what are everyone's thoughts on getting rid of booster energy? I mean torkoal isn't that awful and there are plenty of sun teams out there now but getting rid of the free boost would go a long way in terms of nerfing the splashability of the top offenders at the moment
 
this meta is incredibly fun I don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other on most stuff otr but houndstone is an exception. This mon feels super manageable from both a defensive and offensive standpoint.

  • Houndstone teams are effectively playing 5v6 until something dies (often you need two things to die cuz it’s still p weak at 100bp last respects) which makes pivoting super irritating esp considering you need sand up for it to do anything.
  • Reliance on sand bites in the ass a lot as you can easily end up tossing multiple forced sacs just to get it in cuz you need both it and the sand setter alive. Endgames can also get rough if you can’t get optimal sand turns.
  • Houndstone has difficulty breaking fat as both clod and id corv are both pretty good at denying it from doing much (clod beats it even if it’s houndstone last.) Keeping tspikes off w it last is also rough, tspikes aren’t nearly as important counterplay as clod/corv but it makes breaking w Houndstone even more impractical.
  • Plenty of prio destroys Houndstone w any reasonable amount of prior damage and stuff like Palafin just drops it from full. Also worth noting is that Houndstone’s lackluster speed leaves it outpaced by some scarfers (notably Chi-Yu) and outpaced by a bunch of +1 speed mons leaving it unable to rk in ho endgames (notable primarily against dd users like pult and energy booster stuff for the time that’s in the tier) even in sand.
Overall I don’t see this mon falling into any category of broken. There are plenty of viable options for every archetype to reliably beat it.

edit: worth mentioning it relies on tera for fighting coverage otherwise it’s blanked by normals and steels like kingambit. not sure how real of a weakness this is tho since when using houndstone you’re banking on it cleaning
 
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I would say that Houndstone projects to be broken in a similar vein to Dracovish last generation, but with a far better typing on its focal move -- Ghost as opposed to water -- with less immunities and resistances.
I think it's widely different as while Vish was able to just come in and delete at least one Mon at any point, Houndstone has to come up once the opposing team is extremely weakened. This changes things greatly

1) when you see Houndstone in preview, you know what's gonna be up and play the game with it in mind, preserving mons with priority moves, your normal type if you have one or your weather setter to end sand and making yourself able to outspeed Houndstone
2) oftentimes your team's already very weak in the endgame scenario that Houndstone comes in, I experienced that Houndstone could've been just as well a Lokix or a grass cat. In fact, I often have the feeling that these mons do what Houndstone does better anyway

I know this is quite theoretical but I think it applies. Houndstone is good but gimmicky, as it requires specific scenarios that can be played around, against and can be easily exposed. I don't think you can say the same about Vish

I agree with the mons on the radar but I don't really have the feeling that anything is too oppressive so far. Flutter Mane and Chien Pao are the closest to it, feel like they are dealable in a variety of ways and that there are enough game states that occur that put you in an advantage over them, that might change with time but I would like to wait 2-3 weeks or so until decisions are being made
 
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Scarf Sand Rush Houndstone is insane!

I‘ve been using it as a cheap get out of jail free card and so far its been super strong.
After losing 4/5 mond last respects OHKOs pretty much anything. Also it does not even have to worry about scarfers or Protosynthesis speed clocking out at 774 speed jolly.
So far I have had much more success with hippo instead of ttar as its a better pivot.

Here is an example of how cheap this is. I misplayed badly but the dog bails me out

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1714714103-5drcecmdvjv888zmubuc4oxklbzukzipw
 

ausma

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Sorry if someone has already said this but what are everyone's thoughts on getting rid of booster energy? I mean torkoal isn't that awful and there are plenty of sun teams out there now but getting rid of the free boost would go a long way in terms of nerfing the splashability of the top offenders at the moment
this was actually something i brought up with the rest of the council after noticing it as a common thread in a lot of my games. the main issue with it as a focal point though is that it’s rly hard to pin down booster energy as the exact problem when the main pokemon that make extreme use of it are already very potent as a whole as opposed to solely because of booster energy (roaring moon, flutter mane, and iron valiant). there has to be more evidence and it has to be pretty direct, which is hard to find in a metagame like this

that being said it is a definite angle and maybe one to keep in the back of our minds as paradox pokemon continue to be explored. if we find that there are several potentially healthy presences that are broken by booster energy it could be worthwhile, whatever’s best for the health of the metagame really! but probably not
 
this was actually something i brought up with the rest of the council after noticing it as a common thread in a lot of my games. the main issue with it as a focal point though is that it’s rly hard to pin down booster energy as the exact problem when the main pokemon that make extreme use of it are already very potent as a whole as opposed to solely because of booster energy (roaring moon, flutter mane, and iron valiant). there has to be more evidence and it has to be pretty direct, which is hard to find in a metagame like this

that being said it is a definite angle and maybe one to keep in the back of our minds as paradox pokemon continue to be explored. if we find that there are several potentially healthy presences that are broken by booster energy it could be worthwhile, whatever’s best for the health of the metagame really! but probably not
Okay, fair enough. It might help out but who knows if it would be enough. Some of them might still be too strong without an ability anyway. If not, reliance on torkoal/pinchurchin is an additional indirect nerf but who knows. I figured I'd throw the idea out there.
 
Responding to the On The Radar mons:

:flutter-mane: Should be banned by the end of the day, no point in wasting time.
:chien-pao: Not as broken as Flutter Mane but still very silly.
:houndstone: I'm the camp of banning Last Respects. If you want to feel good about doing so, something to keep in mind is the move clearly wasn't designed with 6v6 singles in mind. 3v3 singles? Very good, but 150 base power isn't unheard of. 4v4 doubles? 200 base power is insane, but it's a single target move so you basically need to get into a 1v1 scenario. 6v6 singles? 300 base power monstrosity, and is still incredibly powerful with only 2-3 Pokemon fainted. Ban the move with the note that it's not balanced for 6v6 singles.
:cyclizar: At first I was a doubter. Then I was a believer. Then I became frightened. It takes some finesse to use, but once you start to get the hang of what this thing can do, learn to do double switches to get it in, learn what mons you can pass to so their sub stays intact, it is oppressively good. My personal favourite version has been getting it in front of the two Donphans and passing to Dragonite. The more you play with it, the more broken you realise it is.

:roaring-moon: :palafin-hero: These two mons represent the two sides of the busted aspects of Tera.
:roaring-moon: What makes it so frightening is you don't know what type it will Tera to, so you don't know what your counterplay could be until it's too late. Got your scarf fairy or ice type? Hah, it's now a steel type and clicked Iron Head and you lost. Want to counter both dark and steel with a fighting type move? Hah, it's now a flying type and sweeping you with Acrobatics. What makes it worse is when you get the move wrong, it can just click ddance again to ensure whatever secondary answer you have in the back can't beat it. The thing is, even if Roaring Moon leaves, there's no reason why regular Salamence couldn't do this. Or Volcarona. Or Gyarados. Heck you could probably do it with Frosmoth. If they lost their original stabs it might not be so bad, but nope!
:palafin-hero: This guy, meanwhile, represents the even more stupid side of tera, namely the super stab boost of same type tera. With adamant choice band, I was OHKO-ing neutral targets with a priority move...in Sun! Then I ran it on a rain team and started laughing my ass off, because do you want to see something 2HKO Toxapex with a priority move? Same type tera might not be as creative or potentially even as wide-rangingly broken as changing into a different type, but it is definitely the most stupidly broken thing. Palafin is the most obvious, but I was doing this shit with banded Scizor. I don't even know why Gamefreak added same type tera boost. Timmy age 6 likes tera because he gets to make his Pikachu a flying type. He's not excited by making Pikachu even more electric type.

If I had my way, I'd ban same-type-tera and go from there. This is because using tera for a different type is really damn fun! It's a great gimmick with tons of considerations in both team building and in battle. Meanwhile super-stab is just "click the broken move button repeatedly", turning every offensive Pokemon into their own version of Dracovish. I'd love to keep tera in the meta since it's great fun to play as, but then you sweep another person with tera steel Scizor and you think "this is dumb".

:iron-valiant: Feels a bit out of place compared to everything else. It's clearly fantastic, and is probably broken. But I'd like to give it more time to watch it really start to delve into its movepool and beat its counters before banning it.
 
Flutter Mane quickban incoming. I predict by Monday the paraghost will be banned

Honestly, basically every single match is an exhibition of how stupid it is, especially combined with terastal. Normal-tera Flutter Mane beats other ghost Flutter Mane. Fire-tera Flutter Mane tanks Bullet Punch and fries Scizor. Corviknight? Electric-tera Flutter Mane obliterates it with Thunderbolt. You never know which set it's running, and most of sets get their job done.

As for items, it can increase its speed by 50% with booster energy or under the sun. Flutter Mane on Sun teams is something that can be handled by priority only.

This stupid ghost can basically beat any of its checks, aside from maybe Blissey (which gets destroyed by Sub/Calm Mind set, although not very common)

I won't be missing the little ghost. Please kick it out asap thnx
 
I disagree with the notion of banning Houndstone. In a post-ban metagame, maybe it’s too strong, but there are a plethora of ways to stop it as of current. Between one of several walls, a plethora of priority moves, weather management, or simply having a strong normal type, there is no shortage of ways to deal with it. Furthermore, it is rather telegraphed and one-dimensional. Unlike Dracovish, there is actually a type immune to it (Normal) on top of tera allowing you to fit a normal type on teams without normal types.

Yeah, yeah. 300 BP move, I know. Broken. Power creep is through the roof this generation, and I actually think the Hound is one of the healthier mons in the current metagame. With such an abundance of dark types, priority, extremely high speed mons, and the ability to Tera Normal, Houndstone is absolutely not anywhere close to the level of flexible power and speed of Flutter Mane, or even Palafin and Chien-Pao. Even if you use your own Tera on Houndstone to let it survive a Sucker Punch, it still dies to a speed-boosted Paradox mon, a Jet Punch, a Bullet Punch, or whatever else you want to throw against it. Hell, use Grimmsnarl or any other Prankster mon to cripple or weaken it during its sweep.

It may be too strong after the first wave of bans, but at the moment, there are more than enough ways to counter it. I would rather it not be banned when it is one of the few telegraphed threats with genuine counterplay besides “hope its Tera Type doesn’t fuck you.”
 
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Scarf Sand Rush Houndstone is insane!

I‘ve been using it as a cheap get out of jail free card and so far its been super strong.
After losing 4/5 mond last respects OHKOs pretty much anything. Also it does not even have to worry about scarfers or Protosynthesis speed clocking out at 774 speed jolly.
So far I have had much more success with hippo instead of ttar as its a better pivot.

Here is an example of how cheap this is. I misplayed badly but the dog bails me out

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1714714103-5drcecmdvjv888zmubuc4oxklbzukzipw
To further elaborate my point, this battle here. The opponent had to both be running zero Normal Types, no Sucker Punch, and misplay on both not activating Palafin-Hero and allowing Houndstone a clean switch in for it to wipe face. If this is considered justification for banning it, well, I really don’t know what to say.

Edit: Let me further mention that Houndstone requires an extra mon to set weather, while all of the other radar picks are perfectly good on their own and are far more flexible and have far fewer direct counters.
 
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Question: why not use chansey over blissey in stall with the very limited knock off distribution?
Same reason as in gen 8, heavy duty boots removing hazard
Try this guy out if you want a sure-fire answer to Flutter Mane
bit overkill but it's fun still
View attachment 466795

Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Body Press
- Iron Head
- Recover
- Stealth Rock

terastilizing isnt usually necessary but it's there if you need it.
Bonus points if you use this in sand
I'm kind of curious as to why poison over steel since they do the same thing, but steel also gives you stuff like a rocks resist. Is there a reason for poison in particular here I'm not seeing?
 
Plenty of prio destroys Houndstone w any reasonable amount of prior damage and stuff like Palafin just drops it from full. Also worth noting is that Houndstone’s lackluster speed leaves it outpaced by some scarfers (notably Chi-Yu) and outpaced by a bunch of +1 speed mons leaving it unable to rk in ho endgames (notable primarily against dd users like pult and energy booster stuff for the time that’s in the tier) even in sand.
Palafin does not drop Houndstone from full with Jet Punch.

252 Atk Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndstone: 115-136 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Also what? Scarf Chi-Yu only outruns adamant Hound. Which is... Not really worth running over jolly unless there are calcs i'm not aware of.

To further elaborate my point, this battle here. The opponent had to both be running zero Normal Types, no Sucker Punch, and misplay on both not activating Palafin-Hero and allowing Houndstone a clean switch in for it to wipe face. If this is considered justification for banning it, well, I really don’t know what to say.
Zero normal types... And how many normal types are OU viable right now? Also if the only offensive counterplay is having to have specific moves (sucker punch, as outside tera Palafin can't threaten Houndstone) then yeah there is a problem.

Same reason as in gen 8, heavy duty boots removing hazard

I'm kind of curious as to why poison over steel since they do the same thing, but steel also gives you stuff like a rocks resist. Is there a reason for poison in particular here I'm not seeing?
I think it comes down to team comp. A different tera to cover the type you're more vulnerable to.
 
Hello everyone, just saw the on radar post, after laddering for a long time on the ladder and reaching top 100 before becoming too sleepy too continue I'm think I already have some impressions of the meta so I'm gonna give my thoughts on the noms.

Mane and Sword weasel thing must go. Too strong. Even without Tera they are ridiculous.

Ban this rubbish. Every mon able to get either a 3rd stab or adaptability while dancing around weakness is ridiculous. I keep what I said before, if it looks like cancer, acts like cancer then it's most likely cancer. BAN THIS GARBAGE.

It's strong mon but that's it. First you're stuck with a shipment giving your opponent a free turn, I find it manageable, I don't have much thoughts of it but I think think it's best sets are band and Bulk Up, those are the stuff.

They been a tad bit underwhelming. Maybe it's because all the broken stuff around, but they left a weak impression. Moon has a noticeable 4MSS in my opinion, you need steel moves to not be walled by fairies, but then you're stopped by bulk steels and bulky fighters, my reception been meh, dropped it for Bundle and not looked back. Valiant I think it's pretty cool on paper in practice is another story, it's just too frail and it's typing doesn't do it favor for set up, I found more success using it as an scarfer. Both those mons while strong won't be able to sweep an prepared team, they were made to be used together with Terastal in mind I think, lots of coverage, with great speed and good offensive stats, this screams Terastal to me, since depending of which Terra they become they can dance around theirs Counters/Checks. If Tera is gone, I think they be fine, top tier but not broken.

I think it's a strong move but I'm on the fence really. Both users of it have their ups and downs. The lizard is fast and has regen and a solid support pool with Spin, Knock and DMeteor so is not too passive and the worm has bulk and makes life hard for grounds with just quake. For now I say wait and see some more, I think it looks broken now because the meta is too unpredictable for now, so give a few bans like Tera, mane and the Chinese weasel whose name I can't remember and let's see again.

Ban the Attack. Hounstone is mediocre without it and I want to remind it it's not the only user of it. Once bank comes its second user Basculegion will be released and if you think the dog is bad enough, here's a funny Calc, I used poltergeist simulating a full power Last Respects.
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Basculin Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 255-301 (60.2 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also use Garganacl, the SaltGolem being doing some honest work for me. It can be Phisycal, Special or even a mixed tank if you use sand, being immune to status conditions with a resist to ghosts and making waters and steels regretting their lives is great.

Edit:Bascu calcs. It's 250 not 300 still ridiculous though.
 
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Zero normal types... And how many normal types are OU viable right now? Also if the only offensive counterplay is having to have specific moves (sucker punch, as outside tera Palafin can't threaten Houndstone) then yeah there is a problem.
I listed several offensive counterplays, while your ”calc” leaves out Tera, Adamant and Choice Band. Not to mention, Sucker Punch is simply a very good move to have right now with the abundance of fast, frail sweepers such as Mane, so acting like that is a tall request is unreasonable.

As for normal types? Literally any mon can Tera Normal (with Mane being a current popular one), Cyclizar is normal, PopulationBomb.Jpeg is normal, and Chansey/Blissey are never irrelevant no matter the metagame. That’s just off the top of my head.

If you see a Houndstone, and your team has zero of the dozen or so ways to counter it? Yeah, you deserve to lose.
 
Thoughts on a few mons:

:cyclizar:

Cyclizar is... not passing 50% subs, but 25% ones. If that's not a bug with Showdown, then it's quite a bit worse than I expected, though it's still a very obnoxious mon. I'll hold off on making further comments on Cyclizar until I get confirmation that it's working as intended, or Showdown fixes it.

:gholdengo:

This mon is, uh, way worse than I expected. Defog is basically nonexistent except on Corv, and all the common spinners can OHKO it on the switch. It's still a decent Scarfer though, albeit not a top-tier one. Air Balloon can be used as well, but it doesn't make it a reliable switch to the Paradonphans, so eh.

:great_tusk:

Speaking of those, I initially dismissed Great Tusk as a shitmon due to a seemingly unimpressive typing combination. I was completely wrong, this thing is a beast. It fills so many roles in a single slot. It checks mons such as Kingambit, breaks walls such as Clodsire, spins hazards away and sweeps the whole tier after. It's really quite surprising how useful it is.

:lokix:

This is another mon that I dismissed as a shitmon who turned out to be pretty decent. Priority is a hot commodity right now, and this mon brings Tinted Lens-boosted Sucker Punches and First Impressions to the table, which don't get blocked by a Chien-Pao randomly turning into a Fairy-type. It's also deceptively bulky, being capable of directly switching into the aforementioned Chien-Pao if needed.
 

Karxrida

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+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Houndstone Last Respects (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 226-267 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Mew's typing was set to Fighting for a neutral damage calc here)

Stop overreacting. If you have a 300 BP Last Respects you're either in a really shitty situation and praying you don't lose or have the game state set in such a way that you would have won anyway. This thing scream noobkiller/winmoar.

I'm willing to bet this thing falls off the face of the earth by next year as people learn how to deal with Houndstone teams.
 
I've been having a lot of fun with Garganacl early on in this metagame. The ghost resist gives it genuinely impressive bulk into both Flutter Mane and Houndstone, and blanking the odd Crocodirge and many Volcarona variants is cute. It also beats Corviknight 1v1 as well, which is super nice for a rocker. It can actually turn some of these Pokemon into momentum with Salt Cure, a powerful signature move that absolutely nothing wants to eat.

Junkhead (Garganacl) @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Body Press
- Salt Cure
- Recover

I've been running full spdef to be able to blank any and all specs or +1 cm boosted Flutter Mane hits, but obviously this can be further optimized to eat hits from Last Respects (four teammates dead) a little bit better. I might run some calcs and tune things up later tonight.

While Garganacl isn't that great of a Pokemon, there are certain popular cores that let it in extremely frequently to spread strong passive damage (it really threatens teams that don't have Great Tusk). I think it will fall off as the meta progresses and certain things that I've been using it to check potentially get banned, but it's definitely been a valuable member of my Day 0 and Day 1 balance team.

https://pokepast.es/508097b14880027d

Here's the full team for those interested in trying Garganacl out, it's pretty solid into most things and got me into top 10 on ladder at one point before I went to bed and ladder got taller lmao. The two biggest threats to this imo are into Great Tusk in sun and Tera-Grass Volcarona, so just watch out and play careful.
I've been running a physdef version of this set (paired with the same Clodsire set you're using) and think Garganacl is going to be one of the premier new defensive mons of this generation.

It has rocks. It has recover. It has status immunity (!!!) along with a bonus ghost resistance from its ability, which is superb for a wall. It has great mixed defenses that benefit from sandstorm. It has a neat DOT effect that persists after you switch out, synergizing well with hazards by forcing chip. It can (hypothetically) Tera if you hate dealing with (insert crazy offense mon your team can't manage right now).

And it tanks almost everything, then slaps some of the biggest physical offensive threats back with a super-effective Body Press. Here are some illustrative calcs using https://pokesports.org/pages/damage-calculator that seem... roughly accurate from my experience. The calc says EQ does less than Outrage from the dragons which makes no sense, but whatever, all I know is that I never die in one hit:

Vs Chien-Pao
252+ Def Garganacl Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 464-548 (154.1 - 182%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 317-374 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vs Roaring Moon
252+ Def Garganacl Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 254-300 (72.3 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Roaring Moon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Baxcalibur
252+ Def Garganacl Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 206-244 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Baxcalibur Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 273-321 (67.5 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Houndstone (can't really hurt it back but just for amusement, banded 300bp Last Respects)
252+ Atk Choice Band Houndstone Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Purifying Salt Garganacl: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This gets a bit iffy with Tera shenanigans, especially when they remove the Fighting weakness, but we'll see if that sticks around. Naturally, the early meta is chaos while people push the broken offensive mons to their limits. Defensive cores struggle to cover all bases right now, and will show more promise once there's some semblance of stability. When that happens, I absolutely see a place in the metagame for Garganacl.
 
I listed several offensive counterplays, while your ”calc” leaves out Tera, Adamant and Choice Band. Not to mention, Sucker Punch is simply a very good move to have right now with the abundance of fast, frail sweepers such as Mane, so acting like that is a tall request is unreasonable
One set on Palafin that not all run, nor should they be forced to run. Especially since bulk up is such a good wincon. You also did not list other offensive counterplay beyond priority, which needs those specific circumstances.

As for normal types? Literally any mon can Tera Normal (with Mane being a current popular one), Cyclizar is normal, PopulationBomb.Jpeg is normal, and Chansey/Blissey are never irrelevant no matter the metagame. That’s just off the top of my head.
Ah yes. Just waste your tera on normal (generally suboptimal on most mons unless they specifically abuse normal attacks). And that's assuming you didn't already use tera on something prior. Cyclizar is a shed tail bot and weak to tera fighting (which houndstone can and does run). Maushold is a bad meme and mostly junk match up fish. And chansey/blissey don't have many of their key moves right now. Always relevant? Not really.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Houndstone Last Respects (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 226-267 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Mew's typing was set to Fighting for a neutral damage calc here)

Stop overreacting. If you have a 300 BP Last Respects you're either in a really shitty situation and praying you don't lose or have the game state set in such a way that you would have won anyway. This thing scream noobkiller/winmoar.

I'm willing to bet this thing falls off the face of the earth by next year as people learn how to deal with Houndstone teams.
252 Atk Choice Band Houndstone Last Respects (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 307-363 (90 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Ahem.
 
So, in your line of thought, we should assume that the Houndstone player can and will save their Tera for Houndstone, but the person playing against them will not? How can you dismiss an opponent using Tera only to say “Also, Houndstone can Tera,” completely missing the contradiction? You can’t have it both ways.

I listed several offensive options. Priority is one, outspeeding with one of several Paradox mon is another, setting up with any sort of speed boost, Tera Normal, anything with a sash to revenge kill. Defensively, you have *so* many options, from Garganacl to setting up your own weather to literally any normal type ever. Hell, *just kill Hippowdon.* Even in a worst case scenario, a Houndstone team relies on Houndstone to do the killing, so spending ~2 mons to kill Houndstone is worth it when the dog is literally the only threat they have remaining.

”But Tera Fighting can kill a normal type!” And that Banded Houndstone will then be facing down something Tera Fighting doesn’t kill and will be forced out again. Houndstone isn’t like Dracovish, you don’t have many opportunities to use it. It comes in near the very end of the game, and with only 1-2 other mons left at *most,* a Houndstone will be hard-pressed to find another chance to come in.

Compare to Dracovish, which could come in on any slower mon, score a kill or chunk for massive damage, and immediately leave to come in again later. Compare to Mane, which has several different Tera options, incredible base speed, and tons of set variety that can thwart the few counters it has at any point in the game.

Houndstone is a noob stomper, and I highly recommend that we wait until Mane and Tera bans before looking to ban what could be an interesting, team-defining and unique pokemon in a generation of similar-looking Paradox hyperoffense sweepers.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Anyone running Sand Rush Houndstone is fooling themselves. That set is ass and loses to any good prio users, real chads run Fluffy Lefties with Body Press to never fucking die and be annoying as hell while also hitting Normals. This is also only half a joke, Fluffy sets are really quite annoying alternatives to Sand Rush that can turn the tides on physical prio users that would normally be used to RK Sand Rush sets.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Congrats, you completely missed the point of my post!

Also, since we're throwing random calcs around.

+2 252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 336-396 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

I played Gen 6. I've seen Excadrill tear teams apart and it doesn't need half its friends dead to do it.

People are looking at the hypothetical best case scenario of 300 BP and buying into the hype without considering context.
 
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