Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Did you breed to get Slack Off on your Skeledirge? I want to have Slack off on him as well but would rather have it be on my starter that I get from the beginning of the journey. Is there any way for him to get access to it without having me breed for one?
Find something that already has Slack Off (doesn’t even need to be in the same Egg Group), have Skeledirge hold Mirror Herb, then have a picnic with both Pokémon in your party and Skeledirge will have Slack Off. This sounds like a playground rumor from the GBA era but it’s true
 
So I looked up Rage Fist on serebii just to check this move out and according to them, the move powers up itself if it connects.
It doesn't exactly specify how much its power increases and if it is permanent like when you have been hit or just a thing for the next turn only.
I am going to assume though that this is next turn only.
Now, I have heard in the recentmost blunder video (video timestamp: watch?v=2YFKUHzeHQc?t=323) that they hit a rotom for ~40%, got burned and next turn they still did ~40% which would imply that Rage Fist powers up 2x if used consecutively.
If all of that is true, this move merits a ban or at the very least a top spot on the radar
(see Edit though).


https://www.serebii.net/attackdex-sv/ragefist.shtml

Battle Effect:
The user converts its rage into energy to attack. The more times the user has been hit by attacks, the greater the move's power.
Secondary Effect:
Move's power raises next turn if the move is successful.

Edit: Okay, I did some testing on showdown itself. Apparently, you don't get a boost if you use Rage Fist consecutively. Now, this may be either an error in Showdowns code or in Serebii's database.
However, it seems like you get a boost to the Base Power of Rage Fist even when you are successfully hit by status inflicting moves such as Willow-Wisp.
For reference, see this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1719345131-ctpeerr5zyu6kcs2hwesgzvvwnzcobwpw
Basically, I U-Turned on Annihilape to power up its Rage Fist to 100 BP. Rotom takes about 30% unburned.
Then, I hit Will-O-Wisp on Annihilape, which should cut its physical damage output in half, so the expected damage of burned Ragefist is 15%.
However, the real damage is ~22% which means that Will-O-Wisp counted as a hit and powered up the move's Base Power to 150.

It now only seems to be half the trouble, but considering that the Bulk Up + Rest set is very much a thing on this pokemon, this means that there is almost no way of playing around the move other than Switching in a normal type, which gets blown up by Close Combat or Drain Punch.
Everything you would normally do to limit the damage output of this pokemon is being punished by Rage Fist.
And who knows what else powers it up (I am currently testing for pain split, toxic, haze, hazards, rocky helmet/rough skin and stat lowering status moves) .
I have updated my post.
 
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I have updated my post.
You should also talk about this in the Annhiliape specific forum. You might get more traction here, but I have found those forums very useful on information on how to use those pokemon, so having this information there would be great for other people learning like me.
 
anyways, thoughts on kingambit and it place in the meta? if you used him, which sets have given you the most success?
I think he's pretty good. Shockingly bulky, gets very strong as your team wears down, and can wallbreak with the right set.

It's problem is that the meta is full of dark resists, notably the chinese offensive legendaries that both resist sucker punch. Also, so many things have fighting coverage it isn't funny, between body press, cc, and low kick. He LOVES tera because it mitigates that risk and also gives him a lot more damage and a way to do special damage with its last move slot.

Really poorly used mon right now though, it will improve as the broken stuff gets weeded out and more people figure out how to use him.
 
With Palafin getting banned, I'm assuming, what do people think will be the new best users of water priority?

The 3 on my radar are Azaumarill, Quaquaval, and Bacsulin which I assume would eventually be replaced by its evolution.

I have tested Choice Band Basculin and Choice Band Azumarill a bit. Azumarill is naturally bulkier and generally seems to have more going for it. Basculin unfortunately lost Flip Turn. But it can threaten Pex and Clodsire with Psychic Fangs.

I assume Quaquaval would be good. But I haven't really tested it yet to compare to the other two. So I would love to hear opinions on this pokemon.

So far I've been looking mostly at offensive potential because I've been trying to stack rain with water priority. However, I find it interesting a lot of people in this thread are focusing more on Assault Vest Azumarill. It indeed makes some sense. Maybe the defensive utility would be more valuable than absolutely maximizing the Aqua Jet?

There is also Sap Sipper Azumarill as an option, but I'm not sure if I'd really want to do that. It would probably counter Breloom, Scovillain, and maybe Meowscarada if they don't run electric coverage. That could be handy on a rain team.
 
With Palafin getting banned, I'm assuming, what do people think will be the new best users of water priority?

The 3 on my radar are Azaumarill, Quaquaval, and Bacsulin which I assume would eventually be replaced by its evolution.

I have tested Choice Band Basculin and Choice Band Azumarill a bit. Azumarill is naturally bulkier and generally seems to have more going for it. Basculin unfortunately lost Flip Turn. But it can threaten Pex and Clodsire with Psychic Fangs.

I assume Quaquaval would be good. But I haven't really tested it yet to compare to the other two. So I would love to hear opinions on this pokemon.

So far I've been looking mostly at offensive potential because I've been trying to stack rain with water priority. However, I find it interesting a lot of people in this thread are focusing more on Assault Vest Azumarill. It indeed makes some sense. Maybe the defensive utility would be more valuable than absolutely maximizing the Aqua Jet?

There is also Sap Sipper Azumarill as an option, but I'm not sure if I'd really want to do that. It would probably counter Breloom, Scovillain, and maybe Meowscarada if they don't run electric coverage. That could be handy on a rain team.
Quaquaval is a great mon and a great abuser of priority. Aqua step and moxie basically gives it free dragon dance boosts if it can kill, and it can clean up and snowball really well. When the meta is less centered around tanking strong physical water/fighting hits it will have a better time.
 
You know what all the Tera talk in particular is reminding me of (accurate or not from my limited context and exposure)? The Gen 6 suspects on Aegislash in XY. Specifically because the concerns seem to come up for how influential they are on the Meta moreso than an outright consensus the mechanic is broken/unhealthy enough to ban (which in a sense tells how much power Aegislash in Gen 6 meta brought to team building).

Terastalizing is clearly proving an influential mechanic, being discussed on Sweepers, Wallbreakers, and even certain utility Pokemon because of how heavily it can shake up a match when applied right and the importance of even one turn's momentum in a metagame made heavily offensive by several factors Tera is included amongst. At the same time there isn't an outright agreement on if the mechanic is unbalanced inherently, has problematic abusers (whether Tera pushes them high like Roaring Moon or simply adds to an OP kit like Bundle), or could be a fair mechanic that is simply too hard to judge fairly in the volatile early period of the game.

The comparison to Aegislash I mentioned comes up because I got the similar impression that, while the mon was S-Rank and HEAVILY impactful (dictating coverage choices on several attackers and heavily limiting certain types like Psychic and Fairy that struggled with it), there was a lot of discussion about if its centralizing effect was itself worthy of the mon being banned when it did a lot but didn't exactly do so in easy use (compared to Quick Bans like Fluttermane for example being "get me on field and win game"). It kind of brought some discussion about how the Suspect candidates were being approached and what was the aim of the Metagame by testing them, as Aegislash centered the game on itself heavily but didn't necessarily remove skill from the match on a micro or macro level the way we think of most problem mons.

Of course Aegislash was one mon, Terastalizing is a mechanic available to literally everything, so it casts a much wider net by default to remove it. In light of this point in particular, I think Terastalize at large should wait on action until we've had both time and evaluated a few of the abusers to see if the new ones popping up after continue to be unhealthy
Bit late on this, but IMO I don't believe a universal mechanic being centralizing is a bad thing - hell, in any actively-designed/balanced game, universal mechanics are supposed to be what defines the game! Of course, lv100 6v6 Singles isn't exactly either, but if we're capable of proving that the swing it provides during its activation turn and in future turns that interact with the terastallized mons is NOT inherently overpowered, I believe it's worth attempting to conserve it, to remove everything else on the pressure-stack first, and embrace the fact that it's supposed to be an important event in every given battle, that people should play and build around.

I got other words on Terastallizing, but they're probably best saved for a more relevant time.
 
Planning on building a Meowscuda balance team featuring the buffed Gastrodon honestly. I honestly like the synergy the two seemingly have in theory - haven't practiced too much with it, but Meowscuda seems like it has at least some OU viability.
 
Find something that already has Slack Off (doesn’t even need to be in the same Egg Group), have Skeledirge hold Mirror Herb, then have a picnic with both Pokémon in your party and Skeledirge will have Slack Off. This sounds like a playground rumor from the GBA era but it’s true
Can you breed moves on an existing Pokémon instead of a lvl 1? I never knew that existed.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
That’s actually nice of them! I am assuming we have to use the mints and such since the paradox Pokémon are not able to breed
I haven’t actually tested this yet but I’d bet the Paradox mons are guaranteed at least 3 perfect IVs. They do that with a lot of special Pokémon (Legendaries, Mythicals, some gift Pokémon, etc). But this is straying off topic at this point, so I’d like to open up a new avenue of discussion. How is everyone feeling about Baxcalibur? I don’t see many people talking about it now but everyone was bringing it up when things first leaked. Once everything settles down, how do we think it’ll fare?
 
I really love Choiceband Meowscarada.

If you hate set up Garg, Grimmsnarl, or Annihilapes hiding behind Reflects, this is the mon to use thanks to the guaranteed crits of Flower Trick.
 
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I prefer using Pult personally, since it also goes through Sub.

How is everyone feeling about Baxcalibur? I don’t see many people talking about it now but everyone was bringing it up when things first leaked. Once everything settles down, how do we think it’ll fare?
I'm quite surprised at how strong it is honestly, and I do feel that it gains a lot from the snow buff and immunity to burn as it is easy for it to setup. Once Scald ever comes back with DLC, if that's the case, it could easily setup on bulky waters as a result. Not sure if how it'll fare because of fast and strong stuff are atm though, but how it fares in the meta is definitely something i'm looking up to.

As a side note i'm kind of forced to use EQ atm since it's so weak to Gholdengo
 
Hey gamers, time for another look at UNDERRATED POKEMON in S/V OU!

First off we have an absolute banger:
View attachment 467937
Veluza @ Sitrus Berry/Life Orb/etc.
Adamant Nature
Ability: Sharpness
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Fillet Away
- Aqua Cutter
- Psycho Cut
- Night Slash

I am a fillet away enjoyer. I love this silly cuda with my whole heart. Here's a few calcs to show you the power of this silly guy:

+2 252+ Atk Sharpness Veluza Aqua Cutter vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 222-262 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery easily 2HKOs defensive corv

+2 252+ Atk Sharpness Veluza Aqua Cutter vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clodsire: 314-372 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery KOs even unaware clod with ease

Still stonewalled by defensive dondozo but he's so cool he doesn't even care

View attachment 467940
Cetitan @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Ice Spinner
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake

Another Pokemon that takes half of it's hp to make itself strong, this guy is SO POWERFUL! Set up snow and you get an automatic buffer for bullet punches and mach punches with the defense boost. Jolly nature slush rush outspeeds quite a bit, and it even pairs well with bundle, appreciating it taking out or forcing waters to tera. Tera electric has merit to get the coveted bolt beam coverage, and to annihilate bulky waters that think they can stomach a blow from this behemoth.

That's all for now, play snow offense please
I've theory crafted running Stored Power on the Fillet Away set to obliterate Dondozo. What's Night Slash for anyway?

I'd try running this mon but it's just so slow and frail, doubly so after it fillets away and becomes vulnerable to priority. Unfort

Edit: Just realized that Night Slash is to kill Slowking. Kind of forgot that mon was relevant with how offensive the meta is but I have seen it at least.
 
Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Liquidation
- Play Rough
- Ice Spinner

Azumarill offers a decent amount to the current metagame landscape. Water/Fairy is a massively value typing that provides a fairly decent stopgap into stuff like Chi-Yu (which is a horrifying Pokemon that I'm shocked people don't think is that good), Chien-Pao, and Choice Specs Dragapult. Furthermore, its offensive profile is fairly good right now. Azumarill in general is great at revenge killing with Aqua Jet which lets it consistently respond to the Pokemon it wants to switch into, and it can 2HKO most things with its STABs + Ice Spinner barring stuff like Dondozo and Alomomola. Tera Fairy lets it shed its Water-type and 1v1 Iron Bundle in a pinch. Obviously it gets worn down throughout the game, but because of Aqua Jet, its resistance profile, and general power, it can always extract some degree of value in the early-mid game for bulky offense structures that simultaneously provides these teams a proactive and reactive option in such a volatile metagame. Choice Band and Belly Drum are fine too but AV has felt most consistent to me.
I've been using AV Azumarill early on as a Chien-Pao answer, and it's been working wonders so far even with the rapid turnover. One thing I've found really useful is Facade over Ice Spinner. Between randomly getting WoW'd when switching into Chi-Yu or unfortunately switching into 1-2 layers of Glimmora TSpikes.

On Chi-Yu:
Building off of your other discussion, Chi-Yu is largely overlooked in teambuilding because of initial theorycrafts of it being a Nasty Plot abuser, its "meh" set IMO. I know I've certainly forgot about the existence of Choice Scarf because of how fast and priority-heavy this meta has become, and I'm pretty sure other people have as well.

My biggest gripe with Chi-Yu is that its Special movepool is basically Dark and Fire Special moves, but I think there are some fun tools to play with.



Chi-Yu @ Leftovers
Ability: Beads of Ruin
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Fire Spin
- Ruination
- Protect​

This set was something I theorycrafted (so not actually executed into practice). On more defensive teams, there exist Pokemon like Blissey, Toxapex, etc. that would safely switch into an Overheat or Dark Pulse from it. The set traps using Fire Spin and stallbreaks using Ruination and Taunt. I still haven't really worked out how much would Clod's Earthquake would affect it, so the EVs are definitely open to some fiddling around to survive a 2HKO or 3HKO from a Clod Earthquake.
 
I haven't played competitive mons in several years, but I decided to give SV a try. I have not been disappointed. This metagame feels especially fresh (and a little chaotic) compared to the last couple generations. I would give most of the credit for that to the fact that the viable Pokemon are an even mix of new releases and some old staples. The new releases (especially some of the Paradox Pokemon) are also some of the most extreme examples of power creep Pokemon has ever seen, leading to an extremely offensive metagame for the most part. I do think its reasonable to expect the meta to slow down as time goes on and some of the most blatantly broken Pokemon get banned. Terastallization is also a pretty fun mechanic to abuse, but I do ultimately think it should be removed from OU (more on this further down). With that all said, here are some of my thoughts on some of the Pokemon in the metagame as it stands now.

1669237668584.png
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With the first two already banned and the second two clearly on their way out, I can say without a doubt that these four all deserve their bans. Flutter Mane was way too fast and strong, especially with its excellent STAB coverage. Last Respects is a broken move, and I think it's pretty clear the tier leaders want to ban the move instead of Houndstone when Home comes out (which I agree with). Palafin is just too strong not to abuse with a 60 BP STAB priority move coming off an insanely easy to achieve 160 Attack. Band will always have a place against offense, but Taunt + BU pushed it over the edge. Iron Bundle gets perfect STAB neutral coverage coming off great Special Attack, excellent Speed, and a number of boosting options with BE and/or Agility. I personally prefer HDB with Taunt because of how well it dismantles fatter teams while still not being a slouch against offense.

1669239929818.png
(Shed Tail)
I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to allow Shed Tail in a tier where Baton Pass is banned. Cyclizar is clearly the the better abuser of it (it can even pass speed boosts after Rapid Spinning), but the amount of cheese this move could facilitate is too much, especially once the meta starts to slow down. While I'd prefer a Shed Tail ban, I don't think the meta will suffer a great loss if Cyclizar just goes instead. I do ultimately think a ban of some kind is inevitable, be it now or in the next couple months.

1669240758821.png

While Chien-Pao doesn't feel like that much of a problem right now, it's about to lose two checks in Palafin and Iron Bundle. Once these two are gone, the biggest things holding it back are its weak STABs and vulnerability to hazards. However, since its reasonable to expect the meta to slow down, I think it could become more of a problem down the line.

1669241250479.png

I know people are trending on Scarf Chi-Yu right now, but Specs is the straight-up fish devil walking out of the sea to roast every Pokemon in existence. Toxapex has to be at full to even hope to check Chi-Yu and even then, its not doing much of anything back to it, and Blissey has to be above 75% or so for Overheat. Very few offensive Pokemon can switch into even resisted hits more than once, and any type of check runs the risk of being surprised by Tera Water/Grass. 100 base Speed is really damn good on a wall breaker with this much raw power. The popularity of Gholdengo is also huge boon, since Chi-Yu can switch into its STABs pretty reliably. Much like Chien-Pao, I think this Pokemon deserves at the very least a suspect down the line if not sooner.

1669242789594.png

Speaking of Gholdengo, the cheese stick man offers a stunning amount of role compression in blocking both Rapid Spin and Defog. Its typing also shines both defensively and offensively, especially on offensive Nasty Plot/Air Balloon sets. It's one of the best users of Terastallization in my opinion, and I have seen both Tera Fighting and Fairy variants work well. Over-reliance on Air Balloon and its middling speed tier are its downfalls, as it loses the ability to check important Pokemon like Great Tusk and Clodsire if it loses its balloon. Scarf is definitely a viable set, but its never quite strong enough to handle its checks without some help, especially with the drop from Make it Rain. Still, I think the utility Gholdengo provides to offensive hazard-focused teams is too much to pass up. With the sheer number of excellent hazard setters this gen, I will be interested to see how the meta continues to develop around hazards if this guy maintains his prominence. I could see Gholdengo warranting a suspect if teams are generally unable to reliably remove hazards.

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Lastly, one of these two guys has felt like a staple on most of my teams, probably because they are currently the best options for hazard removal because they can handle Gholdengo (if its balloon is popped). The fast and bulky BE Great Tusk set njnp posted the other day is so easy to win games with, but it really wants both Knock Off and Rapid Spin as the fourth move. Still, even behemoths like Palafin and Chien-Pao lose to the set after one boost. Iron Treads wishes it got Bulk Up, but still manages to be effective with its broader utility and better Speed. Overall, both of these two will have a solid place in OU I think. Wild to think Gamefreak actually made Donphan good.

Terastallization
I do think that Terastallization is a pretty fun and interesting mechanic to play around with, but I ultimately think the mechanic is too versatile and unpredictable to be competitive. Offensive terastallization in a vacuum is something on the power level of Z-moves in my opinion. Gaining a third STAB from a Pokemon with an already vast movepool or through the reasonably powerful Terablast is very strong. Similarly, an Adaptability boost on any natural STAB typing is very strong. Being able to choose either one with effectively no drawbacks and no indication of which you might be to your opponent? Now we are starting to get into unbalanced territory where its impossible for a Pokemon to be a guaranteed check to any offensive Pokemon.

Somehow, though, defensive Terastallization feels even more unbalanced and unpredictable. The power level of a defensive Terastallization feels akin to the power of a defensive Dynamax, as you can turn your opponent's would be sweep into a straight up L by surprising them with a Tera type that resists whatever move they were going for. Even if the player on the defense only gets one turn from the Terastallization, that can still be more than enough to turn the tide of the battle. The mind games and 50/50s this can force don't really have a place in a balanced and competitive metagame.

When no Pokemon can reliably check or overpower another Pokemon, we will inevitably get to a position where the player who Terastallizes first is usually at a severe disadvantage, which feels very similar to how Dynamax played out last gen. On top of that, selecting a Tera type comes with absolutely no drawbacks, even if it isn't used in the match. The solutions I have seen offered (mainly revealing Tera type at team preview or restricting Tera to one known Pokemon) feel like meager attempts to keep a broken and uncompetitive mechanic around. I can't even begin to think of the mind games that would come from selecting Tera types you had no intention of using.

Ultimately, Terastallization needs to go from OU.

Edit:
@below
Multiple things can be true at once. While sub-pass may not have been the reason BP was banned, the idea of passing a benefit along to a teammate is still there and is still overpowered. The comparison seems pretty valid to me.
 
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I have my own disagreements and agreements with this post but,

I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to allow Shed Tail in a tier where Baton Pass is banned. Cyclizar is clearly the the better abuser of it (it can even pass speed boosts after Rapid Spinning), but the amount of cheese this move could facilitate is too much, especially once the meta starts to slow down. While I'd prefer a Shed Tail ban, I don't think the meta will suffer a great loss if Cyclizar just goes instead. I do ultimately think a ban of some kind is inevitable, be it now or in the next couple months.
this displays a pretty blatant ignorance of why baton pass is banned. Baton pass isn't banned because of sub passing, baton pass is banned because of full team baton pass strategies, which are uncompetitive. That's not to say Shed should stay, but that baton pass is a bad comparison.
 
I really love Choiceband Meowscarada.

If you hate set up Garg, Grimmsnarl, or Annihilapes hiding behind Reflects, this is the mon to use thanks to the guaranteed crits of Flower Trick.
Might have to try it, been struggling with garg recently
252 Atk Choice Band Grass Tera Type Meowscarada Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl on a critical hit: 368-436 (91 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
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