Unpopular opinions

[Hugin]

...You know, I wonder how much of this endless discussion would stop happening if Pokemon had a reasonable mod scene. Yes, there's romhacks, but mostly for old games, they're not exactly accessible for the average fan, and they usually change a LOT. And something like pet mods on Showdown don't really give players a good overview of how any change would affect things.
But if players could just open NexusMods and download a "Rebalanced Typechart All 18 viable!" or "Every mon gets reliable STAB" fix alongside "Beach fashion V3.0" and "Harder Boss lineup" mods, presumably at some point the fandom would figure out "Oh hey Dragon really doesn't need to be nerfed" or "Bug is fine if you just give it better moves for mid/lategame". But without a good way to test how things play out in a normal game, repeatedly, for a decent number of players, this discussion is going to keep happening.

 

[DreamPrince]

On topic of discussing the type chart, my only fix would make another type resist Ghost. Ghost is one of the best attacking types, and its two weaknesses are weak to Fighting, making Fighting/Ghost nearly unresisted with the exception of one line. There have been very centralizing Ghost types for the last few Gens, examples include Spectrier, Flutter Mane, Annilhape, Gholdengo, Marshadow, Dragapult, Calyrex-S, Mega Gengar, Mimikyu, Ceruledge, Lunala, and Aegislash to name a few ( This list covers VGC, BSS, and Smogon ). I don’t think a new type needs to be added, just another resist that isn’t weak to Fighting or Fairy. I was thinking Bug since Bugs are closely associated to Ghosts since they are both phobias hence the resistance.

 

[bdt2002]

On topic of discussing the type chart, my only fix would make another type resist Ghost. Ghost is one of the best attacking types, and its two weaknesses are weak to Fighting, making Fighting/Ghost nearly unresisted with the exception of one line. There have been very centralizing Ghost types for the last few Gens, examples include Spectrier, Flutter Mane, Annilhape, Gholdengo, Marshadow, Dragapult, Calyrex-S, Mega Gengar, Mimikyu, Ceruledge, Lunala, and Aegislash to name a few ( This list covers VGC, BSS, and Smogon ). I don’t think a new type needs to be added, just another resist that isn’t weak to Fighting or Fairy. I was thinking Bug since Bugs are closely associated to Ghosts since they are both phobias hence the resistance.

Hear me out- Rock resisting Ghost, especially if or when they Dexit the Nacli evolution family in any future generations. Purifying Salt is essentially a Ghost resist plus the status immunity (not to be confused with the immunity to status moves that Gholdengo has), and if you want to take this even further you can have Rock offensively hitting Water and Steel for super-effective damage as a very similar reference to Salt Cure. Unfortunately, I don't exactly see "Salt-Type" ever becoming a thing, but this might be the next best thing.

 

[Ransei]

It's honestly really good that Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon were whole games instead of DLC. They came out during a time where whole Pokémon games where cheaper to buy the base version + upper version of than whole games + DLC versions now, despite the latter ending up with noticeably less content and the content not being as much worth the price. Gen 7 also allowed players to migrate their old friends from Sun and Moon into Pokémon Bank to sell Sun or Moon, get some money back, then use the remainder to get Ultra Sun or Ultra Moon. They could've also just got Sun + Ultra Moon or Moon + Ultra Sun and have every Pokémon for the dex bar either Blacephalon or Stakataka. You get two Stakataka or Blacephalon in each version, encouraging you to send one of them through the GTS for the opposite version Ultra Beast.

Another thing to point out is the accessibility. Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon being full games at the time allowed for many players who skipped Sun and Moon to just jump into Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon instead of having to play $40 + DLC for what would have essentially been Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, making the full game option cheaper and more accessible in the long run. DLC would've then be inaccessible for newer players to download after the console's online service runs out. USUM being full games saved the preservation of these games, which likely would not be the case for SwSh and SV whenever Nintendo Switch online runs out.

Lastly, Pokémon DLC is a scam. Especially with the way Scarlet and Violet are doing it. They removed basic content (ex: battle facility) and story elements (ex: any remote lore explaining what makes the box arts legendary, the main lore of the game overall) that every previous major mainline series game had as a default. Basic staples of the game every previous entry either had right from the get go or with like 1 free update, just to repackage it as $35 DLC. People are having to pay $95 to get the same levels of content previous entries had for $40, or even $80 combined if you want to take that route.

 

[Esserise]

USUM being full games saved the preservation of these games, which likely would not be the case for SwSh and SV whenever Nintendo Switch online runs out.

SwSh has a physical version that includes the DLC.

SV does too, and although the initial prints don’t have The Indigo Disk on the cartridge, future prints probably will. The only problem after that point is the fact that the Mochi Mayhem epilogue won’t be available forever since it relies on an event item. (But even that’s not a new phenomenon for Pokémon; HGSS similarly has the Celebi / Giovanni event that ties up part of the story and can now only be accessed via hacking - Mochi Mayhem is just that but bigger, unfortunately.)

and story elements (ex: any remote lore explaining what makes the box arts legendary, the main lore of the game overall) that every previous major mainline series game had as a default.

I don’t think this is something they’ve “removed” so much as just taken a different approach to after so many generations of the same formula. Koraidon / Miraidon are at the heart of the narrative and are your companion for the entire length of the story. Their presence on the boxes is perfectly justified. They’re just not “Legendary” (which let’s be honest, is already an incredibly nebulous classification) in the usual sense of “they have a role in the region’s creation myth or formative history.” Instead, they are the creatures on the cover of the Scarlet / Violet Book, which plays a major role in the region’s history.

 

[ant4456]

It's honestly really good that Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon were whole games instead of DLC. They came out during a time where whole Pokémon games where cheaper to buy the base version + upper version of than whole games + DLC versions now, despite the latter ending up with noticeably less content and the content not being as much worth the price. Gen 7 also allowed players to migrate their old friends from Sun and Moon into Pokémon Bank to sell Sun or Moon, get some money back, then use the remainder to get Ultra Sun or Ultra Moon. They could've also just got Sun + Ultra Moon or Moon + Ultra Sun and have every Pokémon for the dex bar either Blacephalon or Stakataka. You get two Stakataka or Blacephalon in each version, encouraging you to send one of them through the GTS for the opposite version Ultra Beast.

Another thing to point out is the accessibility. Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon being full games at the time allowed for many players who skipped Sun and Moon to just jump into Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon instead of having to play $40 + DLC for what would have essentially been Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, making the full game option cheaper and more accessible in the long run. DLC would've then be inaccessible for newer players to download after the console's online service runs out. USUM being full games saved the preservation of these games, which likely would not be the case for SwSh and SV whenever Nintendo Switch online runs out.

Lastly, Pokémon DLC is a scam. Especially with the way Scarlet and Violet are doing it. They removed basic content (ex: battle facility) and story elements (ex: any remote lore explaining what makes the box arts legendary, the main lore of the game overall) that every previous major mainline series game had as a default. Basic staples of the game every previous entry either had right from the get go or with like 1 free update, just to repackage it as $35 DLC. People are having to pay $95 to get the same levels of content previous entries had for $40, or even $80 combined if you want to take that route.

It'd be extremely hard to convince me that considering the base game wasn't even finished, that they had that content done and held it back from the base game, but I also don't think you are saying that, I am pretty sure you are saying that the game should have been delayed/free update, which is completely fair.

Though, if you think this is the only time Pokemon games have made you pay up for the complete polished version of the game; Pokemon Platinum came out in 2008.

I do sympathize with you and wish the games came with more, but also consider that inflation is a real thing.

Then, having to buy Pokemon Platinum for the real game... Yeah, buying the original and then second version was actually more purchasing power spent than $95 for SV + the DLC. IMO Gen 4 is a more direct comparison than Gen 7 because it's a game that was actually pretty low on content in DP and then basically got its postgame similar to Emerald before, which at least Emerald has the excuse of stuff like the Battle Frontier being a new concept.

That being said also though, at least Pokemon Platinum is actually polished. Scarlet/Violet was never polished, even after the DLC, meaning that you could argue DP + Platinum is worth more since Platinum is pretty polished. I'm not really trying to argue against your point per se for clarification, more trying to bring up other things worth considering to this conversation as well.

Last thing to consider is that depending on how charitable your interpretation, Sun and Moon teasing stuff like the Photo buildings is either proof that the game was always throwaway, or that they literally axed out content that was finished in order to make more features for USUM.

Also my biggest issue with USUM is that if it's your entry point, you get the way worse version of the story, which is sad. This is something not really shown in any other third version. If anything, usually it just adds to the story a few scenes, while USUM outright replaces and cuts a lot of the third act. So even in 2024, I cannot tell someone to "just get USUM", because IMO it is actually the inferior campaign experience.

 

[Coronis]

It'd be extremely hard to convince me that considering the base game wasn't even finished, that they had that content done and held it back from the base game, but I also don't think you are saying that, I am pretty sure you are saying that the game should have been delayed/free update, which is completely fair.

Though, if you think this is the only time Pokemon games have made you pay up for the complete polished version of the game; Pokemon Platinum came out in 2008.

I do sympathize with you and wish the games came with more, but also consider that inflation is a real thing.View attachment 599071

Then, having to buy Pokemon Platinum for the real game... Yeah, buying the original and then second version was actually more purchasing power spent than $95 for SV + the DLC. IMO Gen 4 is a more direct comparison than Gen 7 because it's a game that was actually pretty low on content in DP and then basically got its postgame similar to Emerald before, which at least Emerald has the excuse of stuff like the Battle Frontier being a new concept.

That being said also though, at least Pokemon Platinum is actually polished. Scarlet/Violet was never polished, even after the DLC, meaning that you could argue DP + Platinum is worth more since Platinum is pretty polished. I'm not really trying to argue against your point per se for clarification, more trying to bring up other things worth considering to this conversation as well.

Last thing to consider is that depending on how charitable your interpretation, Sun and Moon teasing stuff like the Photo buildings is either proof that the game was always throwaway, or that they literally axed out content that was finished in order to make more features for USUM.

Also my biggest issue with USUM is that if it's your entry point, you get the way worse version of the story, which is sad. This is something not really shown in any other third version. If anything, usually it just adds to the story a few scenes, while USUM outright replaces and cuts a lot of the third act. So even in 2024, I cannot tell someone to "just get USUM", because IMO it is actually the inferior campaign experience.

Nah USUM had a better story.

 

[pika pal]

Lastly, Pokémon DLC is a scam. Especially with the way Scarlet and Violet are doing it. They removed basic content (ex: battle facility) and story elements (ex: any remote lore explaining what makes the box arts legendary, the main lore of the game overall) that every previous major mainline series game had as a default. Basic staples of the game every previous entry either had right from the get go or with like 1 free update, just to repackage it as $35 DLC. People are having to pay $95 to get the same levels of content previous entries had for $40, or even $80 combined if you want to take that route.

I disagree with this particular point as well. Putting aside the previous reply (which I agree with) that Koriadon/Miraidon are a different approach to mascots (them being unknowns/enigmas to the world is a major point), the DLC doesn't really add back or focus on these elements for either campaign. The sum of the Teal Mask and Indigo Disk stories is focusing on Kieran and co. for a Human cast (akin to a single Rival in each of the main story paths) and the lore expanded on is the self-contained narrative around Ogerpon and (if I'm calling this generously as "lore") more info about Terapagos and the Terastal Phenomenon, which isn't so much tied to the nature of the Paradoxes as a loose energy explanation for the Machine that brings them to the present.

I also think it's a misnomer to say these were previously done "from the get go" or with "1 free update" as a consistent pattern.

• GSC had most of Johto's Legendary lore from the outset fair enough, but most of the additional gameplay content was exclusive to Crystal as a separate purchase, not something you got if you bought GS first.
• RSE you noted put most of its new Post-Game content in Emerald.
• DPPt put most of Giratina's "anything" in the 3rd version along with the large content updates. Any "1 free update" changes were time-limited Mystery Gift events.
• BW and B2W2 aren't very comparable since those were and were marketed as outright sequel games continuing/extending the story timeline rather than just explaining more of it. Gameplay-side though this was again a new purchase rather than stuff added into the existing game
• XY didn't get new updates, ORAS are separate purchases distinctly placed in another region.
• SM and USUM has already been discussed, but it stands by the point I keep repeating that you had to rebuy the new version to get the new content, only this time with the caveat that the improved gameplay came with very unpopular story changes (meaning it might have been better ACTUALLY being patched in as suggested).

If the argument is that they should be handling it in this manner or adding more substantial content for paid DLC, that's not unfair, but this MO is the same old schtick under a different label. At least this method saves me having to replay the campaign again when I want to see the new stuff that got added a year later. If anything I appreciate that the DLC expansions are at least willing to branch out more: instead of "here's more Necrozma info while we rewrite Lusamine" or "we're gonna rewrite Rayquaza's lore," stuff like the Crown Tundra or Teal Mask/Indigo Disk can completely shift their focus onto different casts and lore that don't have to relate back to the main foundational story of the base game when making a "V1.5" third version.

 

[bdt2002]

I don’t have a whole lot of time to write this post and elaborate on what I’m saying since I have a class to go to in a few minutes, but long story short, I think third version games and DLC releases are about equal in terms of quality and quantity. When Game Freak made the transition from third version games to DLC during Sword & Shield, they specifically mentioned at some point, albeit not word for word, that the DLC is meant to be a replacement to the third version release model, one that I would imagine wouldn’t have been possible without the base games selling well enough to warrant the decision to not need to release a third version expansion. For all intents and purposes, you can include Black 2 & White 2 on this list also since they’ve also gone on record saying what would have been Pokémon Grey was designed as two of these split sequel games instead.

The financial status of Base Game + third version tends to be more accurate to Base Game + DLC than you might expect, both in terms of price point and sales count. Yes, it’s not a perfect comparison, but there’s an argument to be made that the added price point is made up for by not having to play through the same base game a second time.

 

[bdt2002]

I don’t have a whole lot of time to write this post and elaborate on what I’m saying since I have a class to go to in a few minutes, but long story short, I think third version games and DLC releases are about equal in terms of quality and quantity. When Game Freak made the transition from third version games to DLC during Sword & Shield, they specifically mentioned at some point, albeit not word for word, that the DLC is meant to be a replacement to the third version release model, one that I would imagine wouldn’t have been possible without the base games selling well enough to warrant the decision to not need to release a third version expansion. For all intents and purposes, you can include Black 2 & White 2 on this list also since they’ve also gone on record saying what would have been Pokémon Grey was designed as two of these split sequel games instead.

The financial status of Base Game + third version tends to be more accurate to Base Game + DLC than you might expect, both in terms of price point and sales count. Yes, it’s not a perfect comparison, but there’s an argument to be made that the added price point is made up for by not having to play through the same base game a second time.

I apologize for the double post, but I have some more time now to finish what I started. In my original post I mentioned that modern games couldn't afford to release DLC over a third version expansion unless it sold well enough to do so. What I meant by that is that, since the sales success of a DLC expansion is attached to that of the base game, a portion of modern Pokémon's game sales may have been encouraged by the DLC itself- in other words, those buyers may not have bought the game without the DLC's existence. In the past I've pointed out how I thought it was suspicious how SwSh and SV have sold so well despite being so unpopular compared to the older games, but when you look at the numbers this way, the dynamic of game quality changes completely:

• RGB + Yellow: 45.69 million sales
  • These account for all regional releases of each version
• GS + Crystal: 30.12 million sales
• RS + Emerald: 23.28 million sales
• DP + Platinum: 25.27 million sales
• BW + B2W2: 24.16 million sales
• XY + no extra game(s): 16.72 million sales
• SM + USUM: 25.51 million sales
• SwSh + DLC: 26.02 million sales
• SV + DLC: 23.23 million sales

(Generations in bold are on actively supported hardware and as such these numbers can continue to increase over time)

I understand that this isn't a perfect comparison, of course, since Switch games as a whole tend to sell much better on account of being able to advertise to both the console and handheld audiences at the same time. Plus, there's the factor of how much each generation costed at launch, and there's the fact that DLC sales would technically add onto the existing numbers of their base games as far as revenue profit is concerned. But with the obvious and unfortunate exception of XY, the correlation of what the DLC is trying to "fill in" for the base games becomes much clearer, at least in my opinion. If you want to be extremely generous, you could also make an argument in favor of pairing BDSP and Legends with each other on my list I made: doing so increases your costs to $120 U.S. as opposed to the normal cost of $60 U.S. plus DLC, but the two releases collectively sold 29.92 million units to date.

 

[Axiemeister]

On topic of discussing the type chart, my only fix would make another type resist Ghost. Ghost is one of the best attacking types, and its two weaknesses are weak to Fighting, making Fighting/Ghost nearly unresisted with the exception of one line. There have been very centralizing Ghost types for the last few Gens, examples include Spectrier, Flutter Mane, Annilhape, Gholdengo, Marshadow, Dragapult, Calyrex-S, Mega Gengar, Mimikyu, Ceruledge, Lunala, and Aegislash to name a few ( This list covers VGC, BSS, and Smogon ). I don’t think a new type needs to be added, just another resist that isn’t weak to Fighting or Fairy. I was thinking Bug since Bugs are closely associated to Ghosts since they are both phobias hence the resistance.

i absolutely agree - i akways thought ghost could be reasonably resisted by bug (because they are simple creatures and not really haunted as easily) and fire (because fire has a lot of symbolism about purification attached to it). they really missed an opportunity by giving fire the fairy resistance (instead of giving it to grass and/or psychic, which make more sense as flavour) instead of the now missing ghost one.

 

[lepton]

This isn't a criticism I levy often, but Yamper feels like it was trying too hard to be cute with the expression combined with the yellow spots and simple bright green eyes as opposed to the Black dots for the real Corgis. I can't explain it but it feels so artificial to me compared to something like Wooper or even stuff only I find cute like Slither Wing.

i’m very late i know but slither wing is ADORABLE im so glad there’s someone else

 

[Hugin]

Nah USUM had a better story.

Congrats on being the first person in a while to stick to the theme of this thread. I heartily disagree with you.

 

[Coronis]

Congrats on being the first person in a while to stick to the theme of this thread. I heartily disagree with you.

Definitely didn’t post it just to get off the awful type chart topic.

 

[Esserise]

I wouldn’t say USUM had a better story than SM, but I’m still pretty fond of it. Fans generally seem to regard the USUM storyline as detracting from SM’s story, but I see the two as very much complementary to one another. USUM takes advantage of a few key changes in the scenario in order to explore the characters in ways that SM didn’t.

Granted, it’s not as robust or as radical in that regard as it could have been, but I think it was worth my time to get to see characters I really liked through a different lens.

Really my only issue with USUM’s story is how they cut out Lillie’s big scene on Exeggutor Island. That was just a fundamentally bad call, and for such a seemingly frivolous reason.

 

[ant4456]

I wouldn’t say USUM had a better story than SM, but I’m still pretty fond of it. Fans generally seem to regard the USUM storyline as detracting from SM’s story, but I see the two as very much complementary to one another. USUM takes advantage of a few key changes in the scenario in order to explore the characters in ways that SM didn’t.

Granted, it’s not as robust or as radical in that regard as it could have been, but I think it was worth my time to get to see characters I really liked through a different lens.

Really my only issue with USUM’s story is how they cut out Lillie’s big scene on Exeggutor Island. That was just a fundamentally bad call, and for such a seemingly frivolous reason.

The problem is those lens fucking suck. It makes them boring. Turns out, characters are made interesting through their conflicts, and then USUM just axes their personal conflicts at the finish line.

Lillie is a character designed to be essentially the real protagonist of the game, and in USUM they go for frankly a very telling "main character fights the legendary alone to save the world" plot instead.

Sun and Moon says, "We will not be a generic Pokemon game, we will have Lillie command her Pokemon (a legendary) to attack her Mother's beast form after 20 hours of build-up to this conflict." Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon says, "You will go on a solo journey with the cool legendary bringing you to fight Ultra Necrozma alone."

And that's cool and all, but it's an extreme downgrade. It's also funny that Lusamine is essentially proven right in her horrible shit that she still canonically did (literally abusing her kids, seemingly killing Pokemon) and now that she isn't the major antagonist, she's just. There.

Lillie was supposed to go on a growth journey and end up going to Kanto, now she is being semi-kidnapped by Ghetsis in the post-game, and now Gladion goes to Kanto for no real good reason. Wow, great way to treat the character who was, again, essentially the protagonist.

You cannot just take a story, rip out the climax which the entire story was building to, change a bunch of variables and just be like "Yeah this'll go well." It really doesn't. USUM is more of traditional Pokemon slop. You, the protagonist, will do all the gyms and save the world. Lillie's storyline doesn't really matter, neither does Gladion's. I think Hau is improved in USUM, but also if you ported Hau's USUM stuff into SM, it would also be fine. Because Hau's character was probably the least tied to that central conflict anyways.

I still love USUM for its gameplay improvements and being a really fun game to play through, but as a hobbyist writer, I thought it was really fucking cool to have an honest-to-goodness Pokemon story that is actually about the characters. Then USUM changed that, and I think half the motivation was so that they could use Lusamine in shit like Pokemon Masters. That, and because some people at the time were upset that the protagonist was not self-inserty enough.

 

[pika pal]

USUM feels like it was supposed to be a Gen 5 style sequel game again, which would make a lot more sense of the otherwise disparate story elements like Lusamine suddenly being not-totally-insane and having a logical goal that still ties into Ultra Space, along with things like the Mohn scene making a lot more sense as Closure for a version of her tha went nuts looking for him and had that whole falling out with her family.

It really feels like this started life as a follow-up game, with things like Lusamine returning from Kanto therapy with Bill, some of the trials changing up, and Necrozma as a Legendary who goes from "just sitting around" to "emerging threat that eats the previous Mascot to become a Stronger Uber boss." The greater emphasis on the Ultra Wormholes and Necrozma can be chalked up to "Solgaleo/Lunala actually existing fully evolved allows them to open and draws attention from UBs/Necrozma/The Ultra Recon Squad." Then the Pokemon short turnaround happened and they just slapped the new elements onto the existing structure of SM without room to make a new game, only having the big story points and new gameplay mechanics finished which would have composed the climax and post game.

 

[Ironmage]

USUM feels like it was supposed to be a Gen 5 style sequel game again, which would make a lot more sense of the otherwise disparate story elements like Lusamine suddenly being not-totally-insane and having a logical goal that still ties into Ultra Space, along with things like the Mohn scene making a lot more sense as Closure for a version of her tha went nuts looking for him and had that whole falling out with her family.

It really feels like this started life as a follow-up game, with things like Lusamine returning from Kanto therapy with Bill, some of the trials changing up, and Necrozma as a Legendary who goes from "just sitting around" to "emerging threat that eats the previous Mascot to become a Stronger Uber boss." The greater emphasis on the Ultra Wormholes and Necrozma can be chalked up to "Solgaleo/Lunala actually existing fully evolved allows them to open and draws attention from UBs/Necrozma/The Ultra Recon Squad." Then the Pokemon short turnaround happened and they just slapped the new elements onto the existing structure of SM without room to make a new game, only having the big story points and new gameplay mechanics finished which would have composed the climax and post game.

I think that Rainbow Rocket also fits pretty well into this theory. With both Team Skull and Aether Foundation having their bosses' plots already resolved (i.e. no longer being especially villainous), they would have needed to bring in a new antagonist to fill out the game beyond the trials.

 

[ant4456]

USUM feels like it was supposed to be a Gen 5 style sequel game again, which would make a lot more sense of the otherwise disparate story elements like Lusamine suddenly being not-totally-insane and having a logical goal that still ties into Ultra Space, along with things like the Mohn scene making a lot more sense as Closure for a version of her tha went nuts looking for him and had that whole falling out with her family.

It really feels like this started life as a follow-up game, with things like Lusamine returning from Kanto therapy with Bill, some of the trials changing up, and Necrozma as a Legendary who goes from "just sitting around" to "emerging threat that eats the previous Mascot to become a Stronger Uber boss." The greater emphasis on the Ultra Wormholes and Necrozma can be chalked up to "Solgaleo/Lunala actually existing fully evolved allows them to open and draws attention from UBs/Necrozma/The Ultra Recon Squad." Then the Pokemon short turnaround happened and they just slapped the new elements onto the existing structure of SM without room to make a new game, only having the big story points and new gameplay mechanics finished which would have composed the climax and post game.

Ok, but it's not that. It is an alternate universe, and the alternate universe has a worse story. It follows the exact same story beats for the first 3/4ths of the game. The only real change is that the Recon Squad vagueposts to the player. And then at the last part of the story it changes.

It's an alternate universe, not a sequel.

Also Rainbow Rocket is just for nostalgia. It's literally < 1 hour of content, and it's not even a good story in of itself. It's basically only a thing to be in trailers and hope people buy the game.

 

[pika pal]

Ok, but it's not that. It is an alternate universe, and the alternate universe has a worse story. It follows the exact same story beats for the first 3/4ths of the game. The only real change is that the Recon Squad vagueposts to the player. And then at the last part of the story it changes.

It's an alternate universe, not a sequel.

Also Rainbow Rocket is just for nostalgia. It's literally < 1 hour of content, and it's not even a good story in of itself. It's basically only a thing to be in trailers and hope people buy the game.

My point was not that the USUM we got is the sequel I described. My theory was that the new stuff started development for such a project idea ala B2W2, that was scrapped and repurposed into an alt-Universe re-release that we ended up getting since they didn't want to throw away those points but they didn't work to tell a sequel story with what they had. I said in multiple places it felt like they were sequel elements and then the Pokemon crunch cycle resulted in them being slapped on top of SM instead.

I don't know why you're going so aggressively on a point I already agreed with about the finished game. I have made multiple comments in the past that I consider USUM's story vastly inferior to the point of not recommending it over SM despite the gameplay content that I normally play Pokemon for myself.

 

[Esserise]

The problem is those lens fucking suck. It makes them boring.

Sun and Moon says, "We will not be a generic Pokemon game, we will have Lillie command her Pokemon (a legendary) to attack her Mother's beast form after 20 hours of build-up to this conflict." Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon says, "You will go on a solo journey with the cool legendary bringing you to fight Ultra Necrozma alone."

But part of the whole problem with third versions is that you’re playing the same game twice. Ideally, I don’t actually want USUM to repeat much of anything from SM, because I already played those games. I don’t want the same story that I already enjoyed just repeated to me — if I wanted that, I’d just play SM again.

At the very least, diverting the climax into a different story helps to make it feel like a little less of a retread. Like at least they’re using the material to do and say something a little different with the characters. Lillie definitely gets the short shrift in this exchange, but the greater focus on what makes Hau, Gladion, Guzma, and Lusamine tick takes advantage of what USUM is doing differently with the scenario. (And even with Lillie, I can sort of see what they were going for — by keeping her around at the end, we get to see the start of her journey as a Trainer.) Necrozma also ends up more characterized than any of the previous third version mascots, because the story is constructed around its predicament and how that has affected others.

It's also funny that Lusamine is essentially proven right in her horrible shit that she still canonically did (literally abusing her kids, seemingly killing Pokemon) and now that she isn't the major antagonist, she's just. There.

Not really?

Lusamine isn’t “proven right” at all; it’s explicitly her arrogance and messiah complex that causes her to rush into Ultra Space to go deal with Necrozma, thinking she can handle it all on her own and disregarding the plan that the Ultra Recon Squad had devised with her. And what happens? She gets her shit rocked, and Necrozma catches everyone off-guard and fuses with Nebby, which just hurts all parties involved. Necrozma is pained by the light it can’t control, Nebby is suppressed, UBs are dropped all over the region, and Alola is left on the brink of doom.

That’d be a weird way to say “See, neglecting her kids was justified!”

And then her post-game interactions are a parade of “Here’s where I went wrong; I’m acknowledging that and trying to do better” admittances.

> "Caring won't keep the things you love safe. But if you don't care, if you're so hard at heart, you may find you have nothing left to protect... Is that it? Maybe I can understand Lillie a little better now."

Here she’s recognizing how being overbearing accomplishes nothing, while failing to attend to the needs of those you claim to care about only pushes them away.

> ”I'm in no position to face my children now... I've lost any right to claim that I am protecting Pokémon as well... If I can't be a mother to them, and I'm no longer worthy to be the president of this foundation... then what am I to be?”

> “I am Lusamine. I am the president of this foundation and mother to Gladion and Lillie. And while I will pour my love into protecting Pokémon and my children from pain... I will also try to be strong enough to watch over them without interfering from now on. That would be an even more beautiful kind of love, wouldn't you say? I learned to think this way after watching you... young <player>."

Here she’s actively holding herself at judgment for what she did, and reconciling her overly protective behavior by deciding that she has to learn to let people grow on their own while offering unconditional support.

> "After all, the way he smiles now... It's quite lovely, don't you think?"

And now, having taken those steps, she’s even able to let Mohn go and finally move on from the grief that caused her to become so malignant.

 

[ant4456]

My point was not that the USUM we got is the sequel I described. My theory was that the new stuff started development for such a project idea ala B2W2, that was scrapped and repurposed into an alt-Universe re-release that we ended up getting since they didn't want to throw away those points but they didn't work to tell a sequel story with what they had. I said in multiple places it felt like they were sequel elements and then the Pokemon crunch cycle resulted in them being slapped on top of SM instead.

I don't know why you're going so aggressively on a point I already agreed with about the finished game. I have made multiple comments in the past that I consider USUM's story vastly inferior to the point of not recommending it over SM despite the gameplay content that I normally play Pokemon for myself.

apologies

also im sick so not really gonna be replying as I won't be on the forum much, have a good day yall :>

 

[bdt2002]

I think the larger issue with Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon comes from Game Freak not knowing what they wanted to do with sequels around this time. Within a three generation span, we went from "having sequels instead of a third version" to "not having any follow-up games at all" to "split third versions that look and feel like they should be sequels but they actually aren't". It's hard to really say why they were so indecisive before eventually settling on the DLC release model during the Nintendo Switch era, but I have a few guesses. Most notably, it's very possible that Game Freak didn't like what they saw with Black 2 & White 2, but still wanted to avoid another X & Y situation where there just wasn't a follow-up game at all.

We do know that Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon had about half as many people working on the games as the original Sun & Moon, and that most of the Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon staff were younger workers buying time for the older workers to work on the first batch of Nintendo Switch main series games. We also know from a separate interview held in November of 2017 that Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon were conceptualized rather late into the original games' development and that these versions were designed to, and I quote, "take advantage of the momentum gained by the Pokémon series following the massively successful release of the mobile game Pokémon Go." (Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokémon_Ultra_Sun_and_Ultra_Moon#Development, https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/19/16466536/pokemon-ultra-sun-moon-interview-nintendo)

In this exact order, here's how I'd imagine things might have played out over at Game Freak:

• Black 2 & White 2 release for the DS in 2012 but initially underperform to their expectations compared to usual third versions
• X & Y release in 2013 for the flashy, new 3DS hardware and feel like a return to form... at first
• The Hoenn remakes launch in 2014 while people wonder how Kalos will be expanded upon
• Mysteriously, Kalos gets no extra content, having either been scrapped or delayed
  • The Hoenn remakes didn't get an expansion either, but (pun very much intended) that's a whole other can of Wurmple
• Come 2016, we find that bits of the extra Kalos content were withheld for Sun & Moon's release instead
• Game Freak wants to expand upon Alola too but wants to get an expansion game out very quickly because of Pokémon Go; a combination of not having enough time and being scared of Black 2 & White 2's underperformance and X & Y's lack of a follow-up lead Game Freak to make larger, yet rushed split third versions as their "culmination of work with the 3DS system", which is really just code talk for "can we just move onto the Switch already?"

 

[DrrT]

I think that Pecharunt having nothing to do with Kieran's actions in the DLC (unlike what a lot of us were speculaying from leaks) is actually a very good thing.

Granted, I also think he did have legimate reasons to hate the player character which I know is not something that everyone agrees on, but even if he didn't, his entire character arc is about how obsessed he became with becoming stronger and how much that changed him. Having all his bad actions in the academy turn out to be the tired trope of "he didn't really mean it he was just possesed/manipulated" would have been lame, and while I was still very disappointed at The Indigo Disk's story, I think he was handled well (it's the Area Zero stuff which I found lacking but I don't think that fits here)

also edgy Kieran choosing Politoed ovrr Poliwrath is funny

 

[Sultan]

I think that Pecharunt having nothing to do with Kieran's actions in the DLC (unlike what a lot of us were speculaying from leaks) is actually a very good thing.

Granted, I also think he did have legimate reasons to hate the player character which I know is not something that everyone agrees on, but even if he didn't, his entire character arc is about how obsessed he became with becoming stronger and how much that changed him. Having all his bad actions in the academy turn out to be the tired trope of "he didn't really mean it he was just possesed/manipulated" would have been lame, and while I was still very disappointed at The Indigo Disk's story, I think he was handled well (it's the Area Zero stuff which I found lacking but I don't think that fits here)

also edgy Kieran choosing Politoed ovrr Poliwrath is funny

Yeah, one of my criticisms of SM's story is that they try to say that Lusimine's actions were all because of Nihilego's poison or whatever, which really cheapens any of the character interactions that came before. I like that they didn't take the cop out path with Kieran.