Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 10 - London Bridge is Falling Down

[yomaalt]

Pro ban voters seeing and a clear ban become a potential kingambit/kyurem situation cause SZ or vert made a anti ban post:

Ok I can't make this a one liner so Imma just say uhhhh... Don't like, 23/25 of the things SZ listed as counterplay die the instant arch gets a eshot into a Draco? For some of them Draco outright just kills them like, lemme.look over rq:
Hippo, glowking, torkoal and etc can be annoying since they force eshot into a two turn, but none of them ohko and they just buff Draco's nuking power so best pray they don't read you into high heavens and flash cannon your fairy/ground who's coming in

Chomp moon Kyu tusk pult all die to Draco and I'm 90% sure you're forced into tera before arch is

Clod, ting, groundmoth, Zama, waterpon, glimm, Rona, gambit, boom, canion arch and Lando all get farmed for a eshot boost into Draco clearing them, for clod if it's tdragon or if it just click Draco twice with chip up you're cooked

Fairy bolt, fairy mola, treads can pose a problem... If arch didn't commonly run shit like flash cannon or body press

Ival is a trade, losing a mon as good as ival only for Barra/bolt to come in the very next turn can be risky at times

Like idk man you gotta guarantee rain is gone for it can't eshot farm you for 17 million free boosts, then pray it has a normal tera instead of one that conveniently fucks you over, and then still play well cause the arch has all it's other teammes to obliterate you just incase

Wait that's 24 who am I missing

 

[quacc]

I love it when the hero comes to write a long speech about a ban forthcoming. I am not going to suspect this mon but I read the forums on the regular. It seems that when people lose to a certain Pokémon, they want it banned. Like, if you lose to a Lechonk do you want that to be banned? How about Flygon? Can’t stand First Impression? What about Pecharunt? Tired of Blimax’s Hazard Stack team giving you hell? Ban it too? The meta is very new to most players. As a hobby, I normally play card games like MTG and the ban list doesn’t come out for 4-6 months minimum or none at all if the meta seems stable or if a deck starts to win multiple tourneys then it becomes a problem and gets looked at. Are there records claiming rain+arch to win multiple events? Is it always claiming the top 10 on the ladder? If it isn’t, then you know it’s in check. If I were to vote for any suspect, I’d vote DNB and let the meta be what it is and see what happens in April at the minimum to have more data or evidence claiming any sort of pokemon braking the format. Just because hearsay lost 5 times and calls it broken is not an excuse. You lost 5 times so that’s on your play style and couldn’t handle Arch+rain with the team you’re brewing. It’s the same people losing to Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, a Tera flip the script, etc that get all salty and ruin the game for others brewing. At some point, and it will happen if it continues, we continue to ban pokemon that people didn’t give time to develop, we will be seeing every team with a Gliscor, a Pecharunt, an Iron Valiant. Then what? More complaining? You all thought banning pokemon so quick in DLC 1 was a problem, then look at what is happening now. The same cycle is happening right before you but once the first opinion sticks, there goes the rest of the cult. I’m glad SZ made this post. Give Arch+rain time because you know once Arch is gone, Sun will be next. I know some people here are gonna defend their beloved Roaring Moon but people will turn against you and get it banned too. You can believe what higher people say and don’t know what the meta will look like after the verdict. However, you do know so let rain flourish and vote DNB.

If this were true then Polteageist and other stored power mons would have been banned long ago. Unfair assumption to assume that you would want something banned if you lost to it; if it were true then I would be preaching about banning perish song because I've lost to whirlpool perish song before.

What's more accurate about Archaludon is how many people are voting DNB off of the fact that they use rain and want to win (there are other DNB posts in here, but you know what they are, I'm not bringing those ones up). Yes, there are people that do vote DNB because they deem that Archaludon has sufficient counterplay without crutching on rain such as Storm Zone, but those end up coming down to an argument off of actual merit of argument strength and not "little timmy beat my Archaludon because I stayed in on a Great Tusk, took 99% from headlong rush and then he revenge killed me therefore balanced."

Give Arch+rain time because you know once Arch is gone, Sun will be next. I know some people here are gonna defend their beloved Roaring Moon but people will turn against you and get it banned too. You can believe what higher people say and don’t know what the meta will look like after the verdict. However, you do know so let rain flourish and vote DNB.

My fucking god, I am going to lose my mind over this.
Rain. Does. Not. Beat. Sun.
Sun has a great matchup into rain and stop pretending like it doesn't just because "water beats fire." Raging Bolt is very good into rain, Walking Wake is very good into rain and even owns rain when rain instead of sun is up, and Torkoal is slower than Pelipper, meaning that Torkoal gets sun up when both are out, although this part is fringe usually. Instead of treating this as a "water beats fire," treat this as "water vs 5 fucking dragon types," that's more accurate.

Actually, let me counter this statement and say that keeping rain around WILL make sun better.
Sun has a great matchup into rain, so if rain gets worse, Sun loses more weight into what it hits on the ladder. Sun doesn't match up too well into offense, but rain has Barraskewda and Archaludon, both of which are pretty strong into offense. Balance gets better if you ban Archaludon, okay, Sun can get used more, but rain also has a good matchup into balance anyways, so all you're really doing is making balance more viable. Hell, Gliscor becomes even better if rain gets worse, and Gliscor has very solid utility into sun.

Also, I don't know what you mean by giving this meta time to develop, it's been 3 months and nothing drastic (aside from no sleep move cheese strats being present at the moment) has really changed. We know that rain is really strong and consistent, and rain fundamentally is not a healthy playstyle to be dominating the tier.

Sooooooo yeah ban Archa

 

[658Greninja]

If anything its preventing the use of uu mons in ou, just play uu if u wanna use shitmons, or limit ur shitmons to 1 per game.

I’m sorry, but banning Archaludon would not suddenly make Krookodile OU viable. Also, what is wrong with niche picks being used? Why is this a counterpoint? The others you pointed out are fair arguments even if I disagree with them, but this ain’t it.

The reason ADV is such a good metagame is not just the top threats have alot of flexibility while being balanced, but because you could build around shitmons. You could sometimes see people using mons like Wailord, Camerupt, Electrode, Banette, Glalie, Lunatone, and even fucking Butterfree at a high level, because they accompany very small, specific niches no other mon can fufill. Someone even won a big tourney with an Arcanine + Roselia team. I think we should at least try strive for a balanced, fun metagame like ADV.

I agree with Pinkacross that teambuilding is rough rn. Gen 9’s power level is simply too high for much creativity. Teams are limited to specific cores and even they get overwhelmed by the sheer number of threats rn. The only archetypes that really have the flexibility to be creative are HO and Weather. I won’t say this is a Tera issue, that could be debated in the future, but its an issue of both Pokemon in the tier having ridiculously good stats and the unnecessary gutting of several defensive Pokes like Gastrodon who has had a solid OU niche in every meta, is completely fucked now cause its stats have run its course.

Society if Gastrodon kept Scald and Toxic

As of right now, the metagame is not only about dealing with the threat, but being able to deal with the threat even after Tera. Were you planning to use Quaquaval as your Gambit check? Sorry bitch, its a Flying type now. Cope, seethe, cry. Hope you could slot in Encore.

Also btw SZ, most of the checks you listed out are either specifically HO or lose to Tera variants. WA Clodsire loses the 1v1 after a few E-Shot boosts. Ting-Lu and Unaware Clod are predictable asf with a double switch to Barra. If you decide to Tera, then it is a win for both Barra and Arch.

I didn't read everything because mucho texto, but he is right, don't touch archaludon and kyurem. SUSPECT GOUGING FIRE, ROARING MOON AND RAGING BOLT or i'm going to s2g

not sure of it is sarcasm or being dead serious, but you could have your opinions on why Arch should or shouldn’t be banned

BUT

If your argument to vote DNB is cause there are other things you think should be prioritized, then you are calling for the process to be slowed down for no reason. Banning one problematic poke would improve the tier and make teambuilding more flexible either way. It doesn’t matter if one thing is more broken than the other.

This mindset is what brought Gen 5 OU to the state it’s in today. No one wanted to ban anything because they thought something else was more broken, and it is now in an endless loop of a Keldeo, Latios, Rain, Zam, Volc, Spikes fuck fest. I do not want this gen to be Gen 5. The same thing happened with Gambit in Home because people thought Bax and Tera were more broken. The same thing happened with the Kyurem suspect test because Rain was all the rage. We should not be afraid of bans. If we feel it isn’t broken, we could retest it again when the meta has simmered down, like we did for Gen 4 Latias.

Sorry this is harsher and longer than most of my takes, but my enjoyment for the tier has slowly been deteriorating. I’m having less fun teambuilding and I’ve even been thinking about abandoning it to learn ADV. That doesn’t mean there is no creativity to be found, but it becomes harder to be creative when you have brainless Arch rain and Gambit + Moon HO teams clicking buttons without a thought.

Gambit rn is starting to become problematic to me. The fact it ate an EQ from Tusk and 2HKOd with +2 Low Kick and Sucker Punch at above 50% HP is a problem (without Tera btw). Gambit is simply ridiculously bulky and strong while also having Tera mindgames to play with.

However, even though I think it is a problem, we need to address other threats in the metagame, including Archaludon.

 

[Finchinator]

- The List of counterplay to archaludon is long as hell:

I just went through the list and I really think you should reconsider how you use the word "counterplay"

1. Hippowdon (its good i faced every team but rain and still topped ladder which proves its good without countering rain)

Yes, but claiming it is good without any relevant evidence is wild. You also rely on Whirlwind rather than beating it initially and have to be max SDef as you actually lose 1v1 otherwise (Electro Shot takes 2 turns so you get 1 free turn, but EQ is a 3HKO with Stamina. +1 Flash Cannon into +1 Draco kills, so there's that).

2. Clodsire

Yes, the only true counter unless Archaludon is EQ.

3. Ting Lu

Like Hippowdon, this relies on Whirlwind. Ruination is super practical and Ting Lu cores tend to be ok here, but Body Press damage stacks up quickly. I would say it is fair to call Ting Lu a check.

4. Great Tusk

A revenge killer when Archaludon is not tera'd at absolute best; very much not a reliable switch-in.

5. Landorus Therian

Same boat as Great Tusk.

6. Tera ground iron moth

Cannot switch in and needs to exhaust Tera to have a chance to 1v1 it. Pretty much anything can 1v1 things with the right tera; this is not actually counterplay and ends up a bad trade into Rain when you are strapped for other tera sequences, even leading you to lose the game outright if they scout it.

7. Garchomp

Same as Tusk and LandoT, but even worse as it loses the 1v1.

8. Destiny bond or cc iron valiant

Loses 1v1 and at beat trades.

9. Zamazenta (it forces tera for a revenge kill later on)

Cannot switch in and needs chip to RK while being susceptible to Tera.

10. Superpower wellspring

Great set and helps offense a lot, but it's still not exactly a check or counter so much as it is a piece to the puzzle in suppressing it.

11. Sash hex pult cripples it or specs tera ghost pult kills it

Neither actually wins the 1v1 and Specs Ghost Dragapult does not kill it.

12. Lategame tera gambit

The right tera on lategame gambit can beat any Pokemin in the game, but it is certainly not an Archaludon answer

13. Qd tera ground volcarona
14. Tera ground volcanion

Both of these are more practical applications of sequencing Tera that can work into Rain at least.

15. Twave galar slowking or chilly reception in general to reset weather

So you switch in and take almost 40 from Electro Shot. Then you take a little over 50% only to get a TWave off and fodder something or to change the weather and give something a free switch-in while Archaludon is +2 SAtk and at full health when hardly anything OHKOs it...and you included it on a list of counterplay...?

16. Tera cm raging bolt
17. Kyurem

lol

18. Even glimmora 1v1s

Again: listing things that just 1v1 without other context is wild. It has to have Focus Sash in-tact and be at full health to even 1v1 it to begin with, too, which makes the bar even more embarassingly low.

19. Dd roaring moon (forces tera)

That assumes it is attack booster and its first time in + it is not a Rillaboom Rain, but yes, this top-tier OU Pokemon can defeat Archaludon in a 1v1 if it gets a free Dragon Dance and Archaludon does not use Tera. This does not make it a check or a counter as it does not switch-in. It simply means Archaludon is only a circumstantial check to it. So you proved absolutley nothing towards your actual point, but I find it very funny this got included.

20. Torkoal and sun

Treads Sun is able to keep down Archaludon, but it is largely due to Treads as nothing else switches in to Draco Meteor and not much OHKOs Archaludon while Archaludon actually can come in 1-2 times.

21. Walking wake (fucks rain in general)

It does actually, but Archaludon is the one thing on Rain it does not exactly beat, which makes this inclusion pretty comical.

22. Opposing archaludon

...what?

23. Iron treads

I am shocked it took you until 23 to get to the second best check to it, but yes, Iron Treads with Earth Power is pretty solid here.

24. Mirror coat tera fairy spdef alomomola(with prough to hit moon)

If you exhaust a Tera and find a safe pivot while remaining near full, then you can pull off this sick lure. In return, you have exhausted your Tera on what is likely your main Water resist and Barraskewda check against Rain, meaning this only works on very specific teams and it still does not even switch-in to begin with.

25. Sd high horse power rillaboom(which just beats rain lol what a joke)

Not as much of a joke as half of the things you listed.

Any Pokemon in the entire game -- including box legends and Arceus -- can lose to the mjority of decent Pokemon with the properly timed Tera or if they are given a completely free switchin with the perfect set after something is foddered previously. This is not counterplay; your list has so many implied fodders or huge tera trade-offs that can be scouted for, leading to a wasteful swing.

Genuine question: Should we be unbanning box legends and Arceus so you can apply an identical argument with all of the things that can circumstantially beat them as well? That is what your list implies. Given that, I feel this list did more to work against your point than actually prove it.

 

[Welcome to mars]

I may consider voting ban on archaludon not because i think it can sweep entire teams with disgusting ease, but because in my personal opinion its that one key rain was needing the whole generation to spiral out of control, for example archaludon can match up well into alot of barrasweka’s checks and counters and sometimes its vice versa, its an outstanding, irreplaceable glue pokemon on rain and while i don’t think its half as broken as current meta roaring moon, it wasn’t going to stay unnoticed forever

or maybe im trolling again

 

[Pheo]

BUT

If your argument to vote DNB is cause there are other things you think should be prioritized, then you are calling for the process to be slowed down for no reason. Banning one problematic poke would improve the tier and make teambuilding more flexible either way. It doesn’t matter if one thing is more broken than the other.

We don't know what the tier will look like with x or y ban so yes, this is an argument. Moreover, we don't know if banning a mon ( archa here ) will improve the tier, this is the point of this thread, some ppl think it will, some think it won't

 

[Pheo]

The reason ADV is such a good metagame is not just the top threats have alot of flexibility while being balanced, but because you could build around shitmons. You could sometimes see people using mons like Wailord, Camerupt, Electrode, Banette, Glalie, Lunatone, and even fucking Butterfree at a high level, because they accompany very small, specific niches no other mon can fufill. Someone even won a big tourney with an Arcanine + Roselia team. I think we should at least try strive for a balanced, fun metagame like ADV.

You can't compare adv with sv, this is a completely different world lol, trying to do like another tier is a big mistake in my opinion, this isn't the same pokedex, the same mechanics, adv is a great tier but I do not think u can do the same with sv and hope that it will works

 

[runningwritingreading]

there is a larger conversation to have about your rhetoric Finch... never seen you like this. Very desperate for the ban, very hostile to your fellow players for differing views; your insistence is driving people away.

Calm down. Be nicer.

 

[awyp]

View attachment 604974
there is a larger conversation to have about your rhetoric Finch... never seen you like this. Very desperate for the ban, very hostile to your fellow players for differing views; your insistence is driving people away.

Calm down. Be nicer.

he isn’t being hostile lol..SZ was asking for a response about how his counter plays are not counterplays

 

[Finchinator]

View attachment 604974
there is a larger conversation to have about your rhetoric Finch... never seen you like this. Very desperate for the ban, very hostile to your fellow players for differing views; your insistence is driving people away.

Calm down. Be nicer.

When someone lists Archaludon as an Archaludon response, the only thing to say is "what?" because that does not make sense.

There was nothing remotely hostile about what I said.

 

[658Greninja]

You can't compare adv with sv, this is a completely different world lol, trying to do like another tier is a big mistake in my opinion, this isn't the same pokedex, the same mechanics, adv is a great tier but I do not think u can do the same with sv and hope that it will works

My point was never that we should go back to running Ttar/Skarm/Bliss/Mence/Gross/Gar teams or even try to lower the power level to ADV levels. What I meant was that we should have a metagame where the top threats are balanced and flexible enough to where niche picks can be slotted in occasionally. This goal is already possible.

Look at Great Tusk. It serves plenty of roles in the metagame such as a spinner, a sr setter, item removal, an electric immune, a wincon, and a breaker. While its 115/131 physical bulk and 131 atk are great, they are not overwhelming and it is balanced by lackluster special bulk and an ok speed stat.

Archaludon is not that. You never see it outside of Rain, and in Rain it does one thing, trade hits and take lives. It is fine to only have one role, but Archaludon is simply too polarizing. Both its weaknesses are mostly physical, meaning it is likely to eat those hits, and it could snowball out of control due to E-Shot boosts + Draco. Its two flaws are offset by AV and Stamina jacking up its bulk to where its mediocre speed doesn’t matter. Very few things could actually 1v1 it besides passive shit like Clod or Ting-Lu who takes alot from +1 Draco and also has to take a boosted BP if it clicks EQ or Ruin. It also incentivizes sub-optimal sets to take care of it like Earth Power Lando and Treads (and btw y’all wouldn’t be complaining about Rbolt if you could hit it with an actually good move like EQ)

The lack of counterplay hurts teambuilding and to say banning it won’t improve teambuilding is missing the point. Any ban regardless of your opinion on it, is a win for the builder.

 

[Magcargo]

Archaludon is not that. You never see it outside of Rain, and in Rain it does one thing, trade hits and take lives. It is fine to only have one role, but Archaludon is simply too polarizing. Both its weaknesses are mostly physical, meaning it is likely to eat those hits, and it could snowball out of control due to E-Shot boosts + Draco. Its two flaws are offset by AV and Stamina jacking up its bulk to where its mediocre speed doesn’t matter. Very few things could actually 1v1 it besides passive shit like Clod or Ting-Lu who takes alot from +1 Draco and also has to take a boosted BP if it clicks EQ or Ruin. It also incentivizes sub-optimal sets to take care of it like Earth Power Lando and Treads (and btw y’all wouldn’t be complaining about Rbolt if you could hit it with an actually good move like EQ)

While Arch certainly excels the most in rain, its actually not too bad outside of it. It does quite well on G-Terrain teams as a Rocker / Paralysis spreader / phazer, where its extremely difficult to kill due to G-Terrain removing its EQ weakness + giving it double leftovers recovery, which pair very well with Stamina. Focus Energy under Veil isn't too bad either, letting it spam Draco rather freely, breaking past Unaware + Gliscor, Toxapex, etc. Hell, I did see Storm Zone bring Specs Arch to an SPL game, which likely is viable as a general hole puncher with a unique defensive profile. Like, it definitely requires support outside of Rain, but overall isn't too bad. IMO it brings enough distinct advantages over H-Goodra (a similar mon) to be viable on a wider array of playstyles while also not entirely stripping the latter from its niche.

Non-rain Arch is ironically one of the more difficult MUs for rain to face, since Arch has a really nice defensive profile + Speed tier into various Rain threats like Barraskewda & Raging Bolt + punishes clicking otherwise riskless moves like Flip Turn with Stamina.

Fair point on Treads and Lando-T, but I'd argue these Pokemon would want to run special sets this gen anyways because of (ironically) Great Tusk and Dozo to a lesser extent. I don't think these "innovations" are entirely because of Arch since they were running special sets earlier in the generation. The mons with drastically higher def compared to special defense this gen is quite high between Skarm, Tusk, Dozo, Torkoal, Gliscor (not a relevant example in this circumstance), etc. + other physical punishers like Glimmora + Wisp users like Pult all contribute to mons like Treads and Lando-T running special sets. I do generally agree that special Treads is a waste in this meta though, as not being able to touch Raging Bolt or Gliscor is pretty terrible, esp since rain will need Treads to be its Raging Bolt check.

 

[Anchor9]

Hello everyone, i would like to take the time to back up the goat CTC , address the suspect of archaludon and state my opinions on it and why i strongly believe it is balanced:

- The only set people ever complain about is a set that is heavily reliant on 3 teammates, yes you need 3 teammates, iron treads for momentum purposes, pelipper, and barraskewda for flip turn, if it doesnt have one of these 3, it struggles, barraskewda is needed for the speed, if not, threats that outspeed archaludon threaten it, aka offensive tusk, offensive lando, destiny bond valiant, tera ground blast iron moth, any offensive ground ever, and if the tera is forced that is a penalty that will allow it to be revenge killed later on, i do not think rain is a consistent playstyle, there are tons of threats that put a stop to rain like dnite, roaring moon, kyurem, specs pult, gastrodon, clodsire, Hippowdon sand which i recently topped the ladder with while facing no rains, which proves its not only good for countering rain but for being anti meta as a whole, hippo sand is good into every style rn, and it hard counters rain, so with these large variety of counters, i strongly believe archaludon is good but its not great or game breaking, its not reverse sweeping literally any team with fallen5, im not saying gambit is broken but i cant deny that its way stronger than this fucking bridge, same with gouging and raging bolt, they all are better and arent even broken on their own.

- Its stabs are not spammable in this meta, flash cannon resisted by volcarona, heatran, and any water, ik people gonna bring up electro shot to counter argue this, the first thing you learn when you are learning how to structure a team is to always have a solid ground type, an electric resist because the pivot move volt switch exists, and ground types are stronger than ever this gen, like ting lu, great tusk, clodsire, lando, they all beat archaludon, in another point i will list all the counterplay to archaludon, but what i mean by non spammable stabs, is that people seem to have insomnia, didnt people cry like toddlers for walking wake to be quickbanned when it first came out? We adapted so nicely to walking wake that it was never discussed again , and i find that walking wake was way harder to adjust to than archaludon, i think people will adapt much more easily to archaludon in the future and the rain hype will die soon, remember you being sick of rain =/= it being broken, thats your problem, you dont make tiering decisions because you hate something, you make it for the betterment of the metagame, in the longterm, the ones that are advocating the archaludon ban are the most short sighted i have ever seen, you dont think it through long term or you havent been around long enough to watch an entire tier evolve and adapt till the next generation, so i would say make the right decisions and stand with me to vote do not ban you will thank me later because the metagame is still developing.

- The List of counterplay to archaludon is long as hell:
1. Hippowdon (its good i faced every team but rain and still topped ladder which proves its good without countering rain)
2. Clodsire
3. Ting Lu
4. Great Tusk
5. Landorus Therian
6. Tera ground iron moth
7. Garchomp
8. Destiny bond or cc iron valiant
9. Zamazenta (it forces tera for a revenge kill later on)
10. Superpower wellspring
11. Sash hex pult cripples it or specs tera ghost pult kills it
12. Lategame tera gambit
13. Qd tera ground volcarona
14. Tera ground volcanion
15. Twave galar slowking or chilly reception in general to reset weather
16. Tera cm raging bolt
17. Kyurem
18. Even glimmora 1v1s
19. Dd roaring moon (forces tera)
20. Torkoal and sun
21. Walking wake (fucks rain in general)
22. Opposing archaludon
23. Iron treads
24. Mirror coat tera fairy spdef alomomola(with prough to hit moon)
25. Sd high horse power rillaboom(which just beats rain lol what a joke)

As u can see this is way more counterplay than gambit, raging bolt, gouging fire or walking wake will ever have, the meta has adapted to those very nicely, but hey who knows... Uhh gee " if its banned ill make 20 posts crying or go on twitter or go in discord servers and complain about the guy who made only 1 post on it and dipped!! " sorry had to do my impression of the bird as a joke, they refer to birds as girls where i live ok back on track, let me get to my next point.

- Rain loses to any other weather, it remains the most inconsistent weather, and i used to think about spl winrate to disprove this point but by that logic, someone can bring enamorus therian 6 times and win 6 times and itll have 100% spl winrate, so that doesnt prove anything, rain loses to sun, it definitely loses to sand, and it loses to snow or veils the hardest, and thats with the slightest water resist, the second thing u learn when structuring cores is to have a solid water resist, so ground type + water resist should defeat any rain if played well,its not like wake where it forces a bulky water + fairy, which is way more restricting than archaludon, just because a pokemon is doing well on rain and it annoys people they want it gone, thats the softest thing ive ever heard, thats a biased subjective decision and does nothing for the future of this tier, all the comments on GOAT pokeaim videos are trashing the council for this suspect, even someone on the council was against it, it speaks volumes as to how unnecessary this suspect was, catering to spl instead of the majority and the better of the meta as a whole, every 2 weeks theres a survey, ive had hundreds of friends quit because of it, let the metagame adapt and see if it remains a problem u get like 3-4 years per gen theres more than enough time, look at kyurem, it just isnt as good as people think it is if anything it forces people to run good teams instead of cheese.

- It forces good building habits, have a solid ground and water resist or immune off the bat, which is 2 of the fundamentals of teambuilding, and if that doesnt scream healthy i dont know what is, its overall a positive influence on the meta, if anything its preventing the use of uu mons in ou, just play uu if u wanna use shitmons, or limit ur shitmons to 1 per game.

- Nobody complained when sun got 5000 buffs this gen, as soon as rain got its buff people are mad, we cannot be biased against playstyles its not good tiering practice, if sun gets to thrive so does rain, veils is amazing too veils is better than any arch rain rn, if people would care to explore it like they explored sleep, its forcing u to explore new archetypes like sand and veils which is overall super healthy for a developing metagame, banning pokemon because you think its broken isnt an excuse, its making the metagame less boring with each ban, then they wanna complain about balance and how balance is the strongest, we ban the balance breakers, of course its the strongest, but id have to disagree with someones point when they said balance is easy to counter if it is then you have not built it right the whole idea behind the style is to balance the team out with the right amount of offense, defense, and pivoting, which == the best playstyle.

-the only rains i face are hardstuck 1700s players, rain is scarce on the high ladder mainly because of its inconsistency and ability to easily be stopped by a random tera, so 90% spl winrate, 10% ladder winrate, 0% winrate vs me, i dont even consider preparing for archaludon or rain, ill use an ho with no water resist sometimes, and ill still beat every archaludon, and people want to ban it?, I think even iron moth is dumber than arch, one fiery dance boost and iron moth gets 3 kills if u dont have ting lu, also garganacl is dumb as hell rn, waay more restricting than archaludon but people gonna say bc its defensive dont act on it, this is not the time or place to discuss other suspects but i aint discussing other suspects im just saying these mons are dumber and people label them fine so why label archaludon broken, you hating seeing rain is no excuse, if anyone argues this i will not acknowledge you, i wont even acknowledge responses to this post i am stating my opinions and leaving.

- 1 move that is heavily reliant on an inconsistent style and 3 teammates is an absurd reason to discuss a ban on something, any weather beats it because it neutralises electro shot, this 1 move people hate, i just dont get it, if this were to get banned for this reason, it would be the worst tiering decision in recent memory, so people remember we need to vote do not ban to help the metagame in the long run, lets not be short sighted.

Conclusion: I will be voting do not ban on archaludon as i feel a strong sentiment on this stance, dont ask me for teams or dont talk to me if ur gonna blindly vote ban here without making solid counter arguments for every single point i have, responses to this post will not be acknowledged i encourage people to make healthy tiering decisions and vote do not ban, thank you for your time and have a good day/night.

Hi, guessing you probably aren’t going to respond to this, but I wanted to start this out saying that even if you’re completely right, not responding to any criticism about your post is usually not good.

First, I want to start out with a little contradiction you introduced that kinda confused me and I want an explanation for. So you peaked with Hippowden. Congrats! You faced every team in your way and conquered them….. except Rain? Wait….. how can you know Hippowden is good into Rain if you’ve never faced Rain with Hippowden? Just a little question. I’m not seeing it with Barra so could you explain?

Second, about spammable STABs. Why’d you only mention Flash Cannon? Why’d you not mention the 130 BP Dragon STAB in the room? Just saying. Most of Arch’s Ground Checks just get destroyed or severely crippled by a +1 Draco Meteor.

Third, your counterplay. Finch already went pretty deep and I won’t go too far. By saying “counterplay”, I’m guessing you mean counter, correct? Correct me if I’m wrong. Now, my definition of counter is a bit oppressive, and it may not be the same as others. This all must be accomplished under the worst case scenario, not including Crits.

To me, an offensive counter should be able to be 2HKOed if it’s faster or 3HKOed if it’s slower by the opposing Mon and OHKO it back. One hit for the swap. Another hit if it’s slower.

A Defensive Counter should be able to neutralize the threat (by killing or removing boosts) or out recover the threat. Typically a 4HKO or 5HKO to be able to setup and Recover.

By my definition, you have 0 Offensive Counters(unless this Tera burners can win IDK. I haven’t done Calcs on everything) and 3 Defensive Counters, Hippowden, Ting-Lu, and Clodsire. There are a lot of checks, maybe, and I’ll show why. See, a Check shouldn’t have to trade itself to win. I made a post about Arch a bit ago about never leaving it near full. A good chunk of your more reliable checks I’ve already done Calcs for, and I can guess a few.

These Mons cannot OHKO Archaludon: , , , . Archaludon can with its usual set. That’s not acceptable.

Now I haven’t done the Calcs, correct me if I’m wrong, but I can guess the same is true with at +1, , , , and . A CHECK SHOULD NOT HAVE TO TRADE!!!

Most of your other mentions seem a bit niche and I don’t have any experience with those so I won’t comment on that. The other part are Tera reliant. Which brings me to another point. A CHECK / COUNTER SHOULDN’T HAVE TO TERA!!!

On to another point. I agree that Rain doesn’t beat Sun, but I can’t say Sun beats Rain. It depends on how each player plays around eachothers threats. To me, it comes down to 3 things:
1. Who can put Stealth Rocks down the fastest and keep them down.
2. Who can kill the opposing Weather setter quickest.
3. Walking Wake and Raging Bolt. Isn’t this a fun one. Whoever navigates their paradox dog best has a huge advantage.
Snow is tough IF it’s A-Ninetales. Other than that it isn’t a huge deal.
I haven’t played / faced enough Sand to know.

Alright, next. Having to have a Water and Ground team and calling it healthy is a bit iffy.

Next, SuN iS BrOkEn AnD sHoUlD bE bAnNeD! It’s just really overshadowed by Rain currently.

Lastly, I’m not on high ladder so I don’t know if Rain is up in those 1800+, but I’ve been hearing a lot contrary.

That’s about it. Please respond. There are some questions I would like answered.

 

[PragaSV]

there is a larger conversation to have about your rhetoric Finch... never seen you like this. Very desperate for the ban, very hostile to your fellow players for differing views; your insistence is driving people away.

Calm down. Be nicer.

Not that Finch needs anyone as a voicebox, but this post was so ludicrous and laughable that I had to weigh in with my two cents lol. First and foremost, not a single word from his post could be construed as hostile to anyone with even a morsel of competence in the English language. Then there is the fact he is quite literally agreeing with the validity of Iron Treads as a check to Arch.

The final nail in the coffin is this ridiculous idea that Pro-Ban posts are "Desperate" and try to inflict their will on the crowd. Anyone that bothered to get reqs is invested in the metagame, we play this game for fun and have individual ideas of what that means and could mean, and try to contribute to decisions that affect the same. Perhaps you should first attempt to state your opinion, expand with valid arguments and start a conversation that way instead of quirky one liners that neither contributes to the discussion of Archaludon, nor makes the faintest sense whatsover. Pro-ban "insistence" is not driving anyone away, everyone that is voting is competent enough to make their own decisions.

(Sorry for the rant, casual takes drive me crazy)

Finally, I gotta agree with yomaalt's post on checks and counterplays listed in the thread. There will always be offensive and terastalizing counterplay to threats, however overpowered. That is simply the state of this generation and the impact of power creep. If one really wants to, an strong argument for Chiyu/Chien-Pao not being broken could be made by listing X number of offensive counterplays and a smaller number of niche defensive answers. However, the feasibility and ease of compressing these counterplays and checks into a stable metagame is what should be considered, and is definitely based on judgement. Archaludon does not pass this test in my "insistent" and "desperate" opinion.

 

[RaikouLover]

I just went through the list and I really think you should reconsider how you use the word "counterplay"

Any Pokemon in the entire game -- including box legends and Arceus -- can lose to the mjority of decent Pokemon with the properly timed Tera or if they are given a completely free switchin with the perfect set after something is foddered previously. This is not counterplay; your list has so many implied fodders or huge tera trade-offs that can be scouted for, leading to a wasteful swing.

I agree with Finch here. I read through the entire list of counterplay “check” by “check,” and came with the same conclusion; any Pokémon can theoretically be a check with the right Tera. On the flip side, Arch has Tera as well and can stone wall said check in its own right.

I’ve been using +SpA Walking Wake Sun as of late and as a whole it is great vs rain but is a trade at best vs. Arch. Weatherball can OHKO in sun with minimal chip or 2HKO in rain, and is really the only “safe” move to click, as Arch can easily just Tera out of the Draco Meteor revenge kill. This leads to the broader point of why I personally find Tera in the metagame to be such a crapshoot. There is justification to not ban anything because “just defensively Tera X pokemon!”

The list provided only reinforces what I previously thought; Archaludon truly has three legitimate checks (Clodsire, Ting-Lu, and SpA Iron Treads) and otherwise forces you to trade and burn your Tera or watch your team get steamrolled. I also think Clodsire usage trending towards Dracovish-Meta Seismitoad is pretty damning.

Arch is broken and should be banned.

 

[pika pal]

Fair point on Treads and Lando-T, but I'd argue these Pokemon would want to run special sets this gen anyways because of (ironically) Great Tusk and Dozo to a lesser extent. I don't think these "innovations" are entirely because of Arch since they were running special sets earlier in the generation. The mons with drastically higher def compared to special defense this gen is quite high between Skarm, Tusk, Dozo, Torkoal, Gliscor (not a relevant example in this circumstance), etc. + other physical punishers like Glimmora + Wisp users like Pult all contribute to mons like Treads and Lando-T running special sets. I do generally agree that special Treads is a waste in this meta though, as not being able to touch Raging Bolt or Gliscor is pretty terrible, esp since rain will need Treads to be its Raging Bolt check.

So where I disagree with this point is the Pokemon running special sets outright rather than some moves, which Archaludon is exacerbating by even making them prefer their Ground STAB be Earth Power with a 40+ difference in base stat (Treads needs near max investment to get SpA above its 0 ATK, and Landorus literally cannot do so without Nature bias).

To go through the list in brief for each.

• Skarmory and Gliscor (the latter you acknowledged already as irrelevant to this consideration) aren't losing to these mons regardless of special sets, in Skarmory's case neither mon fits a move that can break through it short of Max SpA Focus Blast from Landorus-T. These don't impact their set choices
• Tusk and Dondozo are certainly more susceptible to Special attacks, but in this case it's a Coverage move rather than their main STAB in the form of Grass Knot 2HKO (and this option is only available to Landorus). Treads can't 3HKO a 252/4 Dondozo and essentially KOs itself with Steel Beam to achieve a KO on 252 HP Tusk while dying after a Spike to 120 BP STAB and barely hanging on after an EQ (nevermind said Recoil). Again this isn't dictating a full Special set, just a special move for a Phys Attacker to beat some specific checks.
• Torkoal is fair as both cases deal more with Special than Physical even uninvested, but the amount of investment it takes to turn a 2HKO into an OHKO in Landorus's case (Treads goes from an EQ roll to a guarantee on even 0 SpA EP but never reaches OHKO) isn't worth a slightly more threatening Torkoal hit over just 2HKO-ing the slow non-healing mon with EQ while retaining the better power into other targets
• Glimmora and Wisp users are notable but Wisp didn't stop push Landorus to a Special set last gen (and I've yet to see a Nasty Plot set with traction as the main distinguishing factor for offensive building). Glimmora the Toxic Spikes are annoying but this is one match-up that it's questionable for them to run into often enough to matter (vs another lead), with Treads even being a Rapid Spinner among its other roles to leave its job as cleaning those hazards after the lead is dealt with.

To bring this back to the original point, the uses for Special moves on these two are fairly niche, and the most substantial case is not a STAB move as it would be for Archaludon. Max ATK Lando 2HKO's through a 0->+1 Stamina Arch, so this only adds value for a RK role, as Arch can't switch into an attack from Lando-T while Lando-T can't switch into anything besides Body Press either (Electro Shot +1 means FC can OHKO after rocks while Draco achieves that at +0) since Arch will 2-turn it with any other combination of moves.

The only scenario in which Earth Power becomes preferable for Landorus is if you U-Turn/VS (specifically the damaging Pivot moves) the same turn Archaludon is brought out and thus Lando comes into a +1 DEF Archaludon without either having sufferred significant damage yet. In this scenario the further Stamina Boosts mean EQ cannot 2HKO while Earth Power will. This isn't an unrealistic scenario given Arch can often afford to hard switch or it comes in through a fast Pivot like Skewda Flip Turn, but is it enough to dedicate an entire moveslot on your own Attacker/Pivot for one match-up (be it Mon or saying it's Team MU against Rain), especially when, as you noted, this makes it far worse into Raging Bolt (EQ being able to 2HKO Tera Fairy after SR while max EP can barely 3HKO with good rolls if it CM's)?

I don't think these mons running special movesets rather than the odd move, especially in Landorus's case, is particularly fruitful. Where it pertains to the rain match-up is Landorus and Treads making their match-up itno both a lot of the meta and a significant Member (Bolt) significantly worse to be less vulnerable to Archaludon: Treads is fairly solid into Arch at the cost of everything else, and Landorus it really won't play out much differently while either making for redundant coverage or neutering its overall offensive potential. Even if Arch WAS pushing them to Special sets, that feels like a case of calling for constrictive counterplay that kneecaps them in most other match-ups, which is usually regarded as a bad match-up they shouldn't be trying regardless or an example of unhealthy influence.

I agree that Special Treads seems like a waste because outside Archaludon I can't think of anything significant it accomplishes other than Steel Beam KOing itself for HO momentum or something like denying an opposing Rapid Spin/Ceaseless Edge.

 

[TPP]

Voting thread is now up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-suspect-process-round-10-voting.3736818/

 

[Finchinator]

Archaludon is banned from SV OU following a 76% majority: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...s-round-10-voting.3736818/page-6#post-9984934