np: RU Stage 10 - Deja Vu [See posts 47 and 48 for votes!]

kniteowl · Sep 17, 2012

HuntSaboteur said:
P.S. I didn't say that Gatr is better at taking flare blitzes than Kabu is. I was just using it as an example of Kabu's frailty - a 4x resist move being about a 3HKO. Kabutops also can be 2HKOd with Stone Edge, even without HP Grass. (Speaking of which, is it a better idea to run said move on Entei than to go with Toxic or Flame Charge?)

Hidden Power Grass hits Eviolite Rhydon on it's weaker Special Defensive side 4 time super effectively.

Otherwise it would counter you. I guess Toxic works too but taking down their physical wall allowing Entei to deal with the rest of their team is pretty nice.

You could run Iron Head instead for Rhydon but it doesn't 2HKO and Rhydon OHKOs you back with Stab Earthquake but there's always the chance of hax flinching Rhydon but 30% is pretty unreliable.

Honko · Sep 17, 2012

Do not run Iron Head. Ever.

I always ran HP Grass with Life Orb because it actually OHKOes Kabutops, Omastar, and offensive Rhydon. With CB or Flame Plate or Leftovers, they can all survive, so I'd usually rather run Toxic or WoW.

HuntSaboteur · Sep 18, 2012

Oh look who's back from the dead.

And I don'tlisten to Molk. (Everyone, use Metang. Not because I recommend it, but because he doesn't)

Anyway, serious stuff. Does HP Grass take out the other 4x-weak threats, such as Quagsire, wich has a hard time dealing with Toxic? I use Life Orb anyway. Choice items are overrated on any Pokemon that doesn't have a base 120 STAB and 110+ attack. (Entei just about fits that qualification, but CB Flare Blitz is too risky in a tier full of water and rock types)

Also, special Entei. Does it have a niche whatsoever? I suppose its main advantage is the element of surprise. People send their physical wall or Omastar or something in, it Subs, starts to CM, and by the time the sub fades it's HP Grass time (or even better, Solarbeam on sun teams).

By the way, has anyone else noticed an increase in rain team usage?

Bigblue · Sep 18, 2012

kniteowl said:
Hidden Power Grass hits Eviolite Rhydon on it's weaker Special Defensive side 4 time super effectively.

Otherwise it would counter you. I guess Toxic works too but taking down their physical wall allowing Entei to deal with the rest of their team is pretty nice.

You could run Iron Head instead for Rhydon but it doesn't 2HKO and Rhydon OHKOs you back with Stab Earthquake but there's always the chance of hax flinching Rhydon but 30% is pretty unreliable.

Another option I have tried a few times is to run will o wisp because things like rhydon and kabutops will want to come in and then they will be severely crippled.

HuntSaboteur · Sep 18, 2012

BB has a point, burn is arguably a worse status condition than toxic poison seeing as much of RU is composed of physical attackers and the only burn-resistant one is Entei itself (hence the spike in Entei usage when Sableye was around)

ss234 · Sep 18, 2012

HP Grass is probably the best option, since even a dead Kabutops is better than a live one-same goes for Rhydon. Will-O-Wisp is an interesting choice, but HP Grass just does better at eliminating his counters

HuntSaboteur · Sep 18, 2012

Silvershadow, I regret saying that about Rotom. I take it back. As soon as I said it, it spiked in popularity to about 2nd or 3rd. And Ice attacks also say hello. And it's HuntSaboteur, with an o.

Pocket · Sep 18, 2012

Yea, HP Grass is the best option; sure a CB Entei may not OHKO Kabutops or Rhydon with it, but they wont be switching into CB Entei anymore! Wisp could miss, and Toxic takes way too long to wear them down.

I personally dislike LO on Entei. LO recoil + FBlitz recoil just adds up quickly. There's also a notable loss in power that can prevent Entei from 2-shotting Lanturn with Flare Blitz or revenge-killing with ExtremeSpeed. Weak Armor Kabutops is actually threatened to be 3HKOed by CB ExtremeSpeed thanks to the defense drops, so it's not exactly safe for setting up Swords Dance, either, haha.

/B/utterfree · Sep 18, 2012

HuntSaboteur said:
Bug (again, weak to Ice, and who on earth keeps Gatr or Kabu in on Galvantula anyway?!)

Bug is not weak to Ice. Some Bug-types happen to be weak to Ice on account of being part-Grass or part-Flying, but mono-Bugs are not in any way weak to Ice-type attacks. In fact, mono-Bugs are only weak against Fire, Flying, and Rock-type attacks. A couple of Bug-types in RU and NU are x4 weak to Stealth Rock. Dealing with them using Stone Edge is actually optimal compared to other types of attacks thusly.

Mind, I tried to get Vespiquen to RU stat relevance on account of her tankiness some time ago (Yanmega, Volcarona, and other higher-tier Pokes have x4 weaknesses to Rock-type attacks, and Stealth Rock thusly, and are still some of the best Pokemon in the game - true story).I might have to make a Vespiquen-based team again to prove her mightiness, especially since she partners well with Kabutops. Everything about Vespiquen is great outside of her Stealth Rock troubles, which is something also shared by Moltres, who is still one of the best Pokemon in RU, and Scyther, one of the few now-NFEs I considered back in Gen IV and would consider if I was forced to run a NFE in RU.

As far as the RU metagame is concerned, underestimating Pokes with a x4 weakness to Stealth Rock is just silly.

/inb4 "/B/utterfree Logic" comics

HuntSaboteur · Sep 18, 2012

Moltres proves that last bit.

Boingo · Sep 26, 2012

I'm curious if anyone is using anything interesting to deal with Moltres. I feel that outside of Nidoqueen, Moltres restricts my teambuilding the most because there are so few things that can take more than 2 hits from it (It's also because I'm not the greatest teambuilder, but yeah).

Slowking and Lanturn are the big ones, but I'm kinda bored with them (plus Lanturn is more fun to use in OU). I tried Grumpig, and while it was great except for no recovery, I still feel like the options are very limited.

Endorfins · Sep 26, 2012

Yeah, Moltres is a huge threat in this Metagame. The best way I believe to deal with Moltres is setting up rocks and not using stuff like Escavalier who invites Moltres to switch in. Most teams with Moltres have a spinner so having Pokemon such as Lilligant and Rotom-c who can take advantage of Kabutops will stop Moltres from repeatedly switching in and causing havoc.

Yamato Damashi · Oct 4, 2012

If anything, the most important Moltres counter (apart from Lanturn for the specific purpose) is a spinblocker, preferably Spiritomb, thanks to the aforementioned threat of Stealth Rock. (2HKO without any damage. Still being viable after that is a testament to Moltres's power) Otherwise, Flame Charge Entei might work if you can manage to lure in Moltres (switching it in is a big mistake), although HP Grass is superior for the Kabutops lure-in.

Consistent Volt Switches from Rotom-C could also work, as it lures in Moltres with its Fire-weakness, Volt Switches, and you can then bring in Lanturn or Speed-invested Kabutops or something else that resists both Fire and Flying.

Tenchinage · Oct 5, 2012

Yamato Damashi said:
Consistent Volt Switches from Rotom-C could also work, as it lures in Moltres with its Fire-weakness, Volt Switches, and you can then bring in Lanturn or Speed-invested Kabutops or something else that resists both Fire and Flying.

uh, Yamato, remember that to utilise that tactic you need a Pokemon that can take the hit after the Volt Switch happens. And Lanturn gets Volt Switch. The closest you could get is by using a defensive core of Lanturn and Probopass, the latter purely because it resists Hurricane and has an excellent Special Defence. The two keep Volt Switching. Continue until the opponent is sensible enough to switch out Moltres. And then you have the choice of who to switch in.

/B/utterfree · Oct 5, 2012

DittoCrow has kindly asked me to partake more in-depth in regards to RU. So that shall be my task for this month. I can hopefully prove Dusknoir is a decent Pokemon in its own right, among other amusing/annoying schemes that I conjure for RU every month.

blarajan · Oct 7, 2012

As tiering leader, I decree: LET THERE BE SMASHPASS

/B/utterfree · Oct 7, 2012

blarajan said:
As tiering leader, I decree: LET THERE BE SMASHPASS

Let's see...

if SmashPass fails to not be bonkers broken, two-three Pokemon can be banned instead and all will be harmonious in RU/NU without so much as a care; I don't think anyone will miss Gorebyss/Huntail/Smeargle.

On the other hand, I don't want to take the risk of seemingly-unnecessary (re)-bans; however I will let blarajan's judgment not be objected as I'd love to laugh at how it winds up making RU more fun to play in. Also, it might allow for more TLC-Approved Comics, which sparks more creativity in RU.

Note that this is the only part of the adolescent "FREE EVERYTHING" phase I tolerate that isn't "FREE SOMALIA" or "FREE PERMANENT WEATHER IN UU".

SHUCKLE MAN · Oct 7, 2012

/B/utterfree said:
if SmashPass fails to not be bonkers broken, two-three Pokemon can be banned instead

For what it's worth, I agree with this.

Pocket · Oct 9, 2012

Anybody knows a good lead that has an advantageous match-up against most SR setters? I'm asking this, because I re-visited my Moltres team, and the biggest flaw was how easy I allow SR to go up on my side; thus my search for a way to prevent rocks from going up easily.

Common SR setters include Smeargle, Uxie, Druddigon, Nidoqueen, Aerodactyl, and Steelix. Currently playing around with Jynx, since it can threaten Druddi, Nido, and Steelix with Ice Beam & Focus Blast, while it can Taunt Smeargle and Uxie from doing anything. It's probably impossible to Aerodactyl from setting up Rocks other than Prankster Taunt Whimsicott lol or random Magic Coats, so I can live with spinning off rocks once Aero is knocked out. It would be interesting to know what other options there are to make lives for these SR mons harder :d

lars · Oct 10, 2012

Jynx sounds like a pretty good "anti hazard" lead especially considering you have a sleep move at your disposal.

I usually just start off with hazards of my own (accelgor or aero) or with a choice scarf scout. If you think you can pressure the opponent early, then your hazards are going to be better than theirs. Scouts are good because if the opponent is using a hazard setter that your spinner can beat, then you can just jump right to them.

I think it's relatively hard to prevent hazards from being set up in RU (especially SR due to the importance and fairly widespread access to it for walls) however they aren't especially difficult to get rid of because Kabutops and Cryogonal can beat a good deal of spin blockers if you play them right.

Perhaps this sounds like a reactionary playstyle (which is seldom desirable), but if you can use the turn(s) that your opponent takes for hazards to make more important strategic advances then they are, spinning later might be better overall.

In terms of just one Pokemon... I briefly used a Primeape with Taunt/Encore, U-turn, Close Combat and Stone Edge for awhile that in theory was decent at stopping hazards or at least gaining you extra momentum (maybe a bit hit or miss in practice). It also has a bit of extra utility to combat stall. (Honestly your Jynx probably sounds better as an offensive lead)

/B/utterfree · Oct 10, 2012

Whimsicott is likely your best bet in terms of a stall-y anti-lead. Prankster Taunt really is good, and Whimsi herself forces switches in various ways.

However, for those who do not like the Cotton Ball Pokemon, one can just use a speedy offensive Pokemon to quickly gain the momentum. As mentioned earlier by other people, Pokes like Jynx and Lilligant are appropriate for this because they have a Sleep move and can set up on the switch as well, then sweep before the opponent can appropriately react. Some also have Taunt, and will normally be faster than the SR hazards (gdi Aerodactyl).

SilentVerse · Oct 20, 2012

Alright, the votes are in! Omicron has not voted yet, but since the results have already been decided, Oglemi and I have decided to just post the votes so we can get the ball rolling on this. I will add Omicron's votes here once he's submitted them.

Cresselia:

Molk said:
Cress: Retest

I dont know about all of you, but i think that cress might help balance out the metagame if its freed, sure shes a bulky monster that is very hard to OHKO or even 2HKO, but she has a few crucial flaws that might end up making her balanced in RU. First off, while Cresselia's defenses are amazing, among the highest in the game overall, her offenses are severely lacking, and while Calm Mind can help shore up that low special attack stat, its going to need quite a few boosts to do any real damage. Also, its not Cress is lacking in checks and counters. Off of the top of my head, Escavalier, Drapion, Absol, Crawdaunt, Klinklang, Aggron, some Scyther, Durant if that gets retested and mighty as fuck Scraggy can stop Cress if played well. CM cress also struggles with phazers and pokemon with taunt thanks to its low offenses, and can be held off by defensive teams until late game, where it can probably be dispatched with. CM cress isnt the only set, though, cress can also run support sets with ease. Cress has quite a bit of competition in this role, though. Uxie and Mesprit are both fantastic support pokemon with similar movepools. Uxie and mesprit can also boast little perks like Stealth Rock, U-turn, and Memento to seperate them from Cress, meaning that one of them will be preferred in quite a few situations. If nothing else, Cresselia might add some defense into an almost unhealthily offensive metagame, giving stall a chance against threats like nidoqueen, among other things with its sheer bulk. Cress might be quite the imposing presence in RU, but i dont think its anywhere near as overpowering as before tbh.

Oh yeah, forgot the most important part

01:03 windsong if you say to restest cress
01:03 windsong list your reason as
01:03 windsong "cause windsong is sexy and he said so"

Texas Cloverleaf said:
Retest Cresselia

Cress has a number of checks that have been introduced into RU since it last left the tier and defensive teams are much less prominent, as well as set up sweepers being less dangerous in general. Cresselia has to deal with Escavalier and Durant if it were dropped down, two Pokemon that can OHKO it whereas before none could. Cresselia should bring defensive teams back into the limelight as a counter and check to common Pokemon such as Nidoqueen. While it may still be broken and prove to invalidate offensive teams once again, Cresslia should be retested.

DittoCrow said:
Retest Cresselia
Retest Durant

Both Pokemon have new threats to worry about that they did not have back when they were banned. Escavalier and the increase in Spiritomb and more offensive Pokemon pose a threat to Cresselia, while the new offensive metagame will limit Durant's opportunities to switch in. Durant and Cresselia deserve a chance to be brought back and tested, as they don't immediately seem to be broken like Venomoth would be.

ShakeItUp said:
Cresselia: Retest

RU has a lot of powerful Pokemon that can dent Cresselia pretty heavily. It also is very susceptible to Toxic, allowing Pokemon such as Slowking to cripple it. Escavalier completely smashes it, and Cresselia is also set-up fodder for many Pokemon, especially if they have Substitute. It's immunity to Spikes, access to Moonlight in a tier with no weather, and godly bulk will make it a good contender in the metagame, but it is not enough for a ban imo.

august said:
cress

Cresselia is one of the most defensively potent pokemon ever. It has similar defenses to Uxie, with a similar support movepool, but with access to a semi reliable healing move. Cresselia will help rejuvenate stall, which is an archetype that has struggled since the introduction of Nidoqueen. Cresselia counters Nidoqueen with no investment and is not a "deadweight" pokemon to stall like the other options that are commonly considered to check / counter Nidoqueen. Cresselia is also diverse enough to run offensive sets while being a solid pivot, meaning that it will even fit well into offensive teams with a Life Orb Moonlight set, or a Lunar Dance Dual Screen set. I think Cress would be a welcome addition to the current metagame. Unban!!

SilentVerse said:
Cresselia - Retest

I never really thought that Cresselia was actually that broken back in February, and with all the changes that Black and White 2 has brought, imo, there's a good chance that Cresselia might in fact fit into this metagame perfectly well. Though Cresselia's massive defenses might seem intimidating, with Pokemon such as Escavalier now in RU, Cresselia seems like it would be fairly manageable for offensive teams, while also providing a powerful catch-all wall for defensive teams. For example, Cresselia provides a very nice counter to Nidoqueen, who is otherwise problematic for slower teams, and can even stop Moltres with a specially defensive spread. The metagame is incredibly offensive at the moment, and I feel that Cresselia might just give a much needed boost to slower, defensive teams. Furthermore, Cresselia was just barely banned with a 5-4 vote to ban, and with the huge power creep of Black and White 2, Cresselia deserves a retest.

Omicron said:
Cresselia: Retest

I am voting to retest Cresselia for several reasons. Right now, RU is a fairly balanced metagame, but it leans more heavily towards the offensive side of things due to the nature of most of the popular Pokemon used. In addition, we lost Cofagrigus, one of the most durable "walls" in RU, and probably the most popular spinblocker. While that might not be necessarily relevant to Cresselia, Cresselia possesses great tanking abilities but hits like a girl (unless it sets up to +6 with Calm Mind lol). Cresselia will provide a great boon to stall and more defensively oriented teams, which is really what RU needs to be quite honest... Cresselia just barely managed to get banned in the last round in which it was tested, which means that it most certainly was not universally contested.

So, with a unanimous 7-0 vote to retest, the RU Senate has decided that Cresselia will be given a retest!

SilentVerse · Oct 20, 2012

Durant:

Molk said:
Durant:No retest

Im kinda on the fence about retesting Durant tbh, Durant was one of the most debated suspects during its time due to its lack of coverage and the fact that it DID have a few checks, but i feel that its just too overpowering for the metagame now. The old checks to durant that were mentioned were Magneton, Steelix, Aggron, Gligar, Cofagrigus, Poliwrath, Qwilfish, and Normal Rotom. Out of these, two of them are no longer RU, 3 of them get OHKOed by superpower, and one struggled to damage durant in return, this leaves Poliwrath and Normal Rotom. Normal Rotom can be beaten if you predict correctly and hustle doesnt fuck you over, and Poliwrath lacks reliable recovery. Poliwrath also takes about 70% from +1 hustle LO superpower. Combine the fact that durant is still a very fast pokemon with the equivalent of base 188 attack and the fact that a lot of its previous checks just get wrecked now, as well as the fact that it resists quite a few priority moves, and has the bulk to take the ones it doesnt, and you have a monster on your hands. Ive heard people also say that hone claws durant has 4mss, being walled by something no matter what it does, but this is untrue. Hone Claws/Iron Head/X-scissor/Superpower hits everything durant needs to hit, and before you say anything about Moltres...

+1 Life Orb boosted Hustle Iron Head vs 0/0 Moltres 712 Atk vs 216 Def & 321 HP (80 Base Power): 183 - 216 (57.01% - 67.29%) (Guarenteed OHKO after stealth rock).

....yeah.

On the other hand, Durant still does have a few flaws that might just make it retestable, namely its shitty as fuck special defense stat, Hustle giving all of its moves the accuracy of stone miss, and the fact that there are pokemon that are still faster than it, but overall i think Durant is still going to be pretty overpowering.

Texas Cloverleaf said:
Retest Durant

Durant is somewhat similar to Cresselia, but on the opposite end of the tape. When Durant left the meta it had few counters ad couls easily break through teams. Even then it was a controversial ban. With the release of BW2 Durant gained Superpower, leaving it with ways to deal with each of its counters, through either Iron Head, Superpower, Rock Slide or Thunder Fang (X-Scissor being mandatory). However, Durant cannot run all of these moves, and must pick two out of four coverage moves, lest it go without a set up move to remove its accuracy issues. From my own experience using Durant in the Shaking Up RU Tournament I found Durant to be very underwhelming. ITs bulk is subpar, and its Speed, while very god, is vulnerable to revenge killing making it difficult for Durant to find an opportunity to set up. While I do believe that Durant will remain to be broken with the addition of its new move, I also feel that alongside Cress it could drop into a solid equilibrium in RU, and should be retested to, if nothing else, validate the results of the Round 5 Suspect Test.

DittoCrow said:
Retest Cresselia
Retest Durant

Both Pokemon have new threats to worry about that they did not have back when they were banned. Escavalier and the increase in Spiritomb and more offensive Pokemon pose a threat to Cresselia, while the new offensive metagame will limit Durant's opportunities to switch in. Durant and Cresselia deserve a chance to be brought back and tested, as they don't immediately seem to be broken like Venomoth would be.

ShakeItUp said:
Durant: Do Not Retest

This thing is way too strong and fast. It outruns a large part of the unboosted RU tier, and hits ridiculously hard. It can even boost its attacks with Hone Claws, which also makes up for Hustle in the process. Steelix is one of the few Pokemon that can wall it, but it doesn't have recovery, making it less reliable. Between X-Scissor, Iron Head, and Rock Slide , Durant can easily tear apart almost all of the tier, and in tandem with its solid Speed stat, makes it a very potent attacker that it is too strong for RU.

august said:
durant

In a fast paced offensive metagame, Durant fits in quite nicely. Durant is checked by some common balanced pokemon like Steelix and Poliwrath, and often struggles with accuracy prior to a boost from Hone Claws (which may be hard to obtain in a fast paced metagame with Durant being rather frail). Should Cress be unbanned, Durant is also a nice way to offset Cresselia's unbanning, as Durant functions as a decent Cress check, 2HKOing and only fearing Thunder Wave and Hidden Power [Fire]. Durant suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome as well, and cannot defeat even common offensive pokemon without running 4 attacks with no Hone Claws (ie: loses to Moltres without Rock Slide). I think Durant would be a nice addition to RU. Unban!!

SilentVerse said:
Durant - Retest

Durant is a bit of an interesting case. While it has only gotten better with the addition of Superpower, when Durant was banned, it was mostly banned because of theorymon, and many people have expressed a regret that Durant was banned. Even with Superpower, Durant still suffers from a lot of the same issues that it had back before it was banned; an awful special defense stat making it incredibly prone to revenge killing, Stone Edge-esque accuracy on all of its moves, and few opportunities to really switch in without taking a huge amount of damage. And, though Superpower does allow Durant to smash through its old counters in Steelix and Magneton, this isn't much different than, say, Moltres, who has only two real "counters" in Lanturn and Regirock now that it has Hurricane, and those two Pokemon are 3HKOed by Hidden Power Grass. While Durant may prove to be overpowering with Superpower, we will not know until we try it out again; therefore, I support giving Durant a retest.

Omicron said:
Durant: Retest

I am also all for retesting Durant, as it no longer is the insane threat it used to be with things like Nidoqueen in the tier, which completely walls Durant other than Iron Head, as well as Steelix and Magneton which handle Durant quite well other than Superpower. Durant also destroys Cresselia, so it would be a good balance to retest them both at the same time.

With a close 5-2 vote to retest, the Senate has decided that Durant will be given a retest!

Thanks everyone for getting your votes in so promptly! A new np thread will be up shortly.

np: RU Stage 10 - Deja Vu [See posts 47 and 48 for votes!]

kniteowl

Honko

he of many honks

HuntSaboteur

Bigblue

HuntSaboteur

ss234

bop.

HuntSaboteur

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me

/B/utterfree

HuntSaboteur

Boingo

Endorfins

Your Worst Nightmare

Yamato Damashi

Tenchinage

/B/utterfree

blarajan

/B/utterfree

SHUCKLE MAN

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me

lars

/B/utterfree

SilentVerse

Into the New World

SilentVerse

Into the New World

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