Resource ADV OU Viability Ranking and Metagame Discussion

Welcome to the ADV Viability Rankings topic. In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in ADV and what tier they should fall under.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each ADV pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

Without further ado, the list (will be edited as the discussion goes by):

S RANK


A RANK


B RANK


C RANK


D RANK



E RANK


Of course, I expect disagreements about the spot of some of these Pokemon, but that's what the thread is for.

Rules :

• Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
• No flaming
• Stay objective. The fact that you love X or Y Pokemon doesn't mean it's objectivly a beast.

Happy posting!

ctrl f blaziken

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As BKC said, a BKC should at least be seen in C rank. It's a pretty tough mixed attacker to deal with if it has the right Hidden Power for your team.

I feel like Duggy is being overrated in S rank. Trapping is great, but because stall exists, there's team matchups where Duggy is practically worthless (overstatement, perhaps, but definitely not as good). This robs him of the consistency that the other mons in S tier share.

houndoom should be in C, extremely niche and i literally have never seen someone use houndoom in a tournament in years of playing ADV. ttar is preferred as a pursuiter anyways

umbreon deserves to be higher imo, its the ultimate fuck you to stall teams as it can trap everything a stall team normally uses and make it eat a perish song / become fodder for something like taunt tyranitar.

Ah finally, thanks for this thread McMeghan. I have been trying to find a viability thread on ADV for some time now unsuccessfully; also are there going to be descriptions on why a certain Pokemon is a certain rank? That would help new people such as myself out a ton.

I agree with Jorgen about duggy. Sure it could trap pokemon but unlike its friend mega gengar in xy, it lacks the raw power to beat some bulkier (healthy) pokemon. Not to mention being locked into a move gives the opponent a chance to set up while it switches away.

I think starmie should be low A since it is able to support the team with rapid spin while being a good revenge killer with its nice speed, power, and movepool at the same time with good results. It can free itself from crippling status just by switching out which is nice. It cant be reliably spin blocked by gengar since gengar has to watch out for its rare psychic.

i wouldn't say psychic is rare, i wouldn't use starmie without it since it being a spinner that beats 100% gengar is pretty much the entire to use it. however the meta isn't as spikes-oriented as it was at one point so i think b is fine.

of course if that super fun modest (fuck cbb it does not need to be timid) 4 attack starmie catches on and starts wrecking, it might have to move up

I'd have Cune and Pert switch places. I know we've moved past the whole "bulky water" thing that ADV used to be about, but ADV pert remains one of the best pivots the game has ever seen. Just slap it on any team and you pretty much have a full stop to most of the physical threats in the metagame. And that rock resist on a physical wall is huge, and a reason Cune doesn't do the bulky water thing nearly as well as Pert. Cune has the whole offensive CM thing going for it, but it only does that "pretty well" in my opinion (compared to raikou, celebi, and jirachi at least).

Also B rank is a bit weird in that you have staples like Forrey, Maggy and P2 next to shit like Houndoom and Medicham. Maybe make something between A and B for a few of the standouts? Or move some of them up to A? I dunno just looks odd as-is.

Other viability ranking lists do half-letter grades like A+ and B- if that would make it more intuitive

can you really take suicune out of s rank though? it's without a question one of adv's definite pkmn and top 3 for sure, it's just so ridiculously good at what it does. obviously the lack of a rock resist makes it not the sturdiest cbtar/aero switch but that doesn't mean it's still not one of the best mons. for what it's worth i think cune's a better cm sweeper than raikou and celebi as well (mainly because of dugtrio/aero and the fact that cune can run roar which is unbelievably useful for cm bliss/psych up regice/other cune). move pert up to s if anything (i'm not opposed to this at all) but i don't think you can drop cune.

don't really agree with swapping cune and pert. cune is far more dangerous because it has no true counter and is extremely versatile; offensive cmroar, subcm, hp elec, crocune, stalkroar, subroarcm, etc. are all viable varients and each have individual counters which make it so deadly; scouting is crucial, and even then it may still fuck you if you conceal your moves well. pert is a better pivot due to the rock resist; however, being spikes bait (hydro still doesn't 2hko forre and u know it misses a shitton) is a major con along with the fact that pert is far more susceptible to toxic status unless resttalk but then it's even more spikesbait!!! pert also loses to hp grass meta and it doesn't have to boom :( of course, pert is far better against physical offense teams where it thrives by checking ttar aero mence and co much better, but i don't think that justifies the swap with cune.

i'd personally swap meta and dug on the list. duggy is so deadly and can typically trap one pokemon on almost every adv team, even stall (celebi), and some stalls even rely on adamant duggy for the crocune check lol. BUT, dug is, as stated previously, ridiculously inconsistent and at times it's sorta a do nothing mon besides switching into a resttalk roar zapdos's tbolt and forcing it to switch by threatening the rock slide or like being faster than gar. meta is a super consistent pokemon. vs almost any team it can net a kill with boom unless you stupidly boom into a gar, and it combines being an awesome physical attacker check with having a lot of offensive prowess. if u get duggy'd, u either killed a mon already or were outplayed and should have played differently. it's probably my favorite mon to use just because it has a lot of utility in the myriad of shit it checks (snorlax, aero, ttar, mence, gar, bliss, jira, regice, some celebi, etc) while being hard to stop completely: skarm can fall to a mixed set or repeated band mashes if u get an atk boost, zapdos hates band too, swampert can be hp grass'd, etc. of course, u can't run all those moves simultaneously, but the fact that u can avoid certain mons from walling you depending on ur team is great.

if u train ur meta like Golden Sun u will win lots of games too. his magic meta ftw

Are these rankings with or without a ban on Ingrain Smeargle?

I too agree that Dugtrio is not a S tier mon and should be moved down a few notches. He can become worthless so easily. A Pokémon can be unique in its role, without a doubt - that does not mean it's one of the best. Dugtrio should be low-mid A rank in my opinion, I'm not too much of a fan of it.

Also it feels to me like Cloyster, Houndoom and Medicham, or at least the latter two, could be in top C rather than low B (Vaporeon is fine). Very few people use Cloyster and when it happens, I always get the feeling that it has a minimal impact.

imo:

- starmie should be up a rank - it has the ability to spin successfully almost 100% of the times (thx to dat stab psychic and base 115 speed) as well as double as an offensive powerhouse with access to boltbeam and stab hydro pump coming off of a solid base 100 spA stat. doesnt get much more A-rank than that
- dug dropped to A rank because it is not as gamebreaking as he's made out to be. the people above have already expanded on why this is so.
- blaziken added to C rank, as it fits the description perfectly.
- doom dropped a rank because it doesnt play the niche role of trapping as consistently as it is meant to.

Raikou down to B because it only works on one kind of team and needs a lot of support to do well. It's also only really good in late-game - you wouldn't use it to switch into things early. That being said, when pitted against the right team or one with a sole counter removed it's very scary.
Magneton up to A, because there's a whole sector of teams that revolve around it and it's also almost essential for the use of quite a few mons, including quite a few of those higher on the list than itself.

i agree with the sentiment that having dugtrio as s-rank solely on virtue of its niche is silly when magneton fulfills the exact same role (albeit trapping different targets) and it isn't s-rank itself.

dugtrio should join magneton in b-rank.

Yuri said:

i agree with the sentiment that having dugtrio as s-rank solely on virtue of its niche is silly when magneton fulfills the exact same role (albeit trapping different targets) and it isn't s-rank itself.

dugtrio should join magneton in b-rank.

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just because they both trap targets doesn't mean that they fulfill the same role by any means; duggy is far more versatile in this aspect and traps more than simply steels. magneton is also bait for opposing duggies, so it can be easily trapped with a cute skarm--> dug double if your opponent plays well, and then you're not going to have fun vs skarm.

if there were A+'s, A-'s, etc. i'd put dugtrio in A(maybe plus but i think A suits it more) and Magneton in A- as the latter, as previously stated, can open up doors for a lot of pokemon, but is pretty linear in general. dugtrio on the other hand can trap a shitton and revenge kill.. should be ranked higher because of it.

i don't agree with moving cloyster to c. just because a pokemon isn't used much doesn't mean it's bad by any means. unlike the other spikers, cloyster can set up on suicune which is HUGE. skarm isn't setting up layers on a +1 cune even with spdef investment. hp elec cune and subcm are gay, but the former is rare AF and spdef cloy still tanks an hp electric while the latter can be beaten by using something like a roar cune of your own. besides suicune, cloyster also dicks the popular mag+physical offense teams. since mag can't trap it unlike the other spikers, these teams have a lot of trouble both ohkoing you (as they don't run many special moves) and preventing spikes as they often don't run a spinner due to the mag support. this means you have a huge advantage vs these types of teams. cloyster also sets up on other shit like swampert and can threaten pokes like mence out for a layer. if your oppo has mag + clay, your own cloyster can prevent the clay from spinning, and you have to play well with gar. also, cloyster gets boom which means it can possibly net a kill or weaken an opposing poke along with laying spikes which is great. rest cloyster is decent, but i'm not really a fan of it on anything barring offense.

Dice said:

unlike the other spikers, cloyster can set up on suicune which is HUGE.

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the only suicune cloyster can "reliably" set up on is crocune though, and other spikers with fairly reasonable sdef investment can do just the same.

i agree with your other points though.

The list is more or less good.

S-rank
(These Pokemon define the metagame the most. They have many equally good movesets.)

• 
  => The best ADV pokemon. It can be the best late game sweeper (DD), be a really good hard hitter (CB), be a great wall breaker (Sub sets), or pursuit ghosts to help things like Forry or EQ Curselax. Its ability is great for defensive teams, removing the lefties effect on non rock/ground/steel walls and hitting threats like heracross/cbmence every turn.
• 
  => Excellent defense stats (CBmence cant 3hko the defensive set with hp flying), great ability (it can easily pp stall tbolts, etc), and very hard to take down after a few CMs. The offensive sets can easily beat the most common counters of the defensive one, and its a huge threat vs offense in general. It can also beat a lot of set uppers with a CM + Roar set.
• 
  => The most impredictable mon: it can hit hard with t-bolt + ipunch + fpunch + gdrain, it can sleep, it can burn, it can surprise special walls with focus punch, it can boom, it can perish trap, it can destiny bond to get a free kill. Really good in any kind of team.
• 
  => It's very difficult to kill, and is a really good support mon, that can annoy with seed, heal status, be even harder to beat with reflect, be a bulky sweeper with cm + seed, BP boosts (SD or CM) or subs, and it can also be a very dangerous sweeper with a fast CM set.

A-Rank
(These Pokemon are really good and almost always do their job. They have some flaws that prevent them to be as good as the S-Rank Pokemon.)

• 
  => It should be higher. A very dangerous CMer that can also heal the team with wish. It can also use a body slam set to get paras, or even a gimmicky set with DPunch to 2hko bliss/lax and ohko ttar.
• 
  => Really good CBer, a great sweeper (DD), it can surprise with a mixed sets, or be a great physical wall with wish + protect. Intimidate is great.
• 
  => It hits hard, it takes hits very well, it can lure swampy/forry, and it can boom.
• 
  => Probably the best physical wall in the game, resisting anything that is physical, but rock and fighting attacks. It's also the best spiker in the game, and a great phazer.
• 
  => It's p hard to beat w/out HP grass for most physical sweepers (like Mence, T-Tar, Gross, Flygon, Aero...). It's rock resist is very useful. It can also phaze, curse...
• 
  => Lax is a great mon, and it works like a physical Suicune: really good special bulk, and curse to boost its physical stats. It can also boom, surprise skarm with FB. I dropped it from tank S because sand hurts it a lot, and t-tar, gross, etc are everywhere, making it less effective, especially with spikes, and it usually has to choose between beating Gengar or being able to hurt t-tar/gross.
• 
  => It has terrible defenses and a bad attack, but it's one of the best mons in the game, because it's ability to trap and kill dangerous mons like t-tar/gross/heracross/raikou/celebi/jirachi... and any non flying/levitate mon that is weak.
• 
  => Very fast, and can hit very hard. Rock Slide flinch chance (and miss chance!) has decided a lot of games. One of the best cleaners.
• 
  => A very good wall, that can also hit hard, phaze and BP subs and agilities.
• 
  => Probably the most (or one of the most) underrated sweeper. It can easily open holes in any team with its CB set, or sweep with SD sets (Sub SD Salac is especially dangerous, because it will outspeed everything after salac boost, and it's already strong megahorn is boosted with Swarm). Guts is a great ability as well, so burns won't hurt it. It's biggest problem is Dugtrio.
• 
  => The best special wall, and also a good CMer. It can support the team with Aromatherapy, Wish, and it can also spread status (t-wave and toxic).
• 
  => It has a great typing (letting it beat non hp ice electrics and non IB ddtars), and a good coverage with EQ + RS + FB + HP Bug.
• 
  => A very dangerous CMer, that is fast and hits hard. It's problem is Dugtrio.

B-Rank
(These Pokemon fullfill a given offensive/defensive/support niche. They have some flaws that prevent them to be as consistant as the higher ranked Pokemon but are nonetheless common and should be taken into account when building a team.)

• 
• 
• 
  => A worse spinner than Skarm, and it needs Pursuit to spin because Gengar is a huge problem.
• 
• 
  => The best spinner, but it doesn't really do much more, so it deserves B-rank, but it could maybe be a bit higher.
• 
• 
• 
• 
  => It should be higher, maybe even bottom A-Rank. A lot of teams have problems with it.
• 
• 
• 

C-Rank
(These Pokemon are way less common than the S/A/B one and usually need way more support to work. They are often inferior to the higher-ranked one but have one or two advantages that give them a niche with proper team-support.)

• 
  => I dropped it from B-rank
• 
• 
• 
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• 
• 
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Gimmick-Rank
(These Pokemon have a small niche, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then they're worth the majority of the time.)

• 

sdef cloyster sucks dont use it! but yeah i agree, cloyst is fine in b. vaporeon and houndoom down to c sounds fine though.

magneton traps skarm (and sometimes forre/meta/jira depending on sets), dugtrio traps half the god damn tier. you cant say theyre both trappers so they deserve to be in the same rank because thats way of looking at it is much too linear.

is medicham really b material? theres no doubt its a dangerous threat but i dont find it as consistent as the rest of the b guys because of its frailty and how much prediction it requires.

medicham should be in the same tier as slaking, yeah. forgot to mention that.

edit: if needs be i can demonstrate easily that starmie "really does much more" than "just spin"

Well, Starmie can also be a threat with a HPump + IB + T-bolt set I guess, although sometimes it lacks power, but I meant the typical spinner set with Surf + Psychic (well, it can beat things like Gengar and Blaziken I guess)
Yeah Medicham cound be in C-rank

It might lack power at times but at least it is able to hit a really large portion of the metagame super effectively depending on its moveset. I think only snorlax, regice, porygon2, and blissey can safely switch into any of its moves while forcing it out.

Im a fan of medicham since it can 2hko skarm with focus punch (cool how a focus punch hits before a whirlwind) and its really a force to be reckoned with if it gets behind a sub. Also, to further show that duggy isnt s rank material, it can beat duggy one on one with alittle investment in hp (20 evs minimum iirc). But yeah, it needs prediction to work at its best, it doesnt want to switch into anything, and its a bit too slow to sweep but it makes for a great wall breaker so a C+ sounds good for it.

i think cune is worse than gengar. they're both really good at what they do but gengar does way more things. worth considering

List Changes:

• 
  Blaziken added to C-Rank (between Machamp and Exeggutor).
• 
  Dugtrio dropped to A-Rank (behind Swampert).
• 
  Houndoom dropped to C-Rank (2nd spot there).
• 
  Medicham dropped to C-Rank (1st spot there).
• 
  Starmie moved up to A-Rank (last spot there).
• Swapped Jirachi and Raikou spot in A-Rank (Jirachi has more utility outside of the CM Sweeper set than Raikou and is easier to pull off thanks to its immunity to Toxik/Wish (even tho Bulky Roar/Rest Raikou really deserves more usage)).
• Swapped Umbreon and Dragonite in C-Rank (while Dragonite is a really great DDMence/Ttar partner, Umbreon overall utility vs Stall is grandiose, I wouldn't mind a more elaborate "debate" on its position because it really needs more love).
• Moved up Magneton in B-Rank (over Claydol now), despite lacking overall utility/bulk, the ability to remove Skarmory/Forretress is so good for some playstyle (Offense/Bulky team weak to Spikes) that I felt like it deserved a better rank).
• Moved up Gyarados in B-Rank (over Regice now).

Some explanations/thoughts on these changes:

• I think everyone agreed to drop Dugtrio to A-Rank. Altho metagame-defining, it has some rough match-up and is really dangerous vs Physical Offensive due to the setup opportunities it opens after Revenge-Killing something.
• Houndoom/Medicham dropped to C-Rank. They both have a really good niche but everyone agreed to drop them from B-Rank.
• What is imo the most controversial move: moving Starmie to A-Rank. It has a great offensive and defensive set but the latter one really has trouble switching on anything really offensive and usually has to decide between Speed/Offensive ability and good Bulk. I could totally see it dropping to Top-B Rank if we reach a consensus/read good arguments supporting this change.

magic9mushroom said:

Are these rankings with or without a ban on Ingrain Smeargle?

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Afaik, Ingrain Baton Pass Smeargle is banned from the competitive environnement.

I also saw some of you mentionning a different kind of ranking using subtiers (like A+ or A-). I felt like the ADV metagame was small enough to not use them (plus I like how the list is clear the way it currently is) but I won't mind using them if the majority of you support a change.

We should/could eventually discuss these rankings: Suicune/Gengar position behind Tyranitar, Snorlax in S, Vaporeon in B, creating a D-Rank to separate the actually good/usually viable C-Rank Pokemon (like Medicham or Steelix) from the too-nichy Pokemon like (Exeggutor or Hariyama).

Thanks for the (great) answers to the thread already!