NOC 11p gen 1 closed setup (D4 End: Dec 25 at 5 PM PST)

Eagle4 said:
i'm really struggling this game tbh, i have no idea what to think

one thing i haven't considered is that maf have daychat, which makes scum gameplans more likely as maf can collaborate w/ each other to push a certain idea

i'm not really very keen on voting out former today tbh, i think i'd want to keep them around for at least a day (when we have more info) since he's one of the few experienced players here
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He's not even provided by anything though
 
U-Turn Out

U-Turn Out said:
I don't think flavor has meant anything significant in the last couple of games I've played in and claiming flavor immediately is something TBZ would do

vote SB
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Townlean for bringing up meta for those unfamiliar with it. Weak one, though.
U-Turn Out said:
Don't know if most 11p setups are 8/3 or 9/2, the only 11p game I remember playing off the top of my head was 8/3 white flag
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......huh. Y'know, Eagle, you might've actually done something with your attempted trap. This doesn't contribute anything to the discussion and fits Eagle's concept of trying to get free town points by pretending to now know how many mafia there are. There's no reason for him to make this post other than to try and score points.

I'm gonna actually put this as scummy. I stand by what I said before about the trap not being great because it was literally the only thing to comment on in the thread, but UTO didn't need to double post to respond to it -- he just responded to the only other thing worth discussing.
U-Turn Out said:
I am tentacool

I kinda feel good about Clarinet this game not interested in lynching him today

shub's case on tbz was weak and felt kinda weird after already voting clarinet

are you still scumreading eagle?
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NAI because he provided no reasoning or things to analyse but leaving this here for connections purposes later.
U-Turn Out said:
I will vote shubaka. Also fine with TBZ going, not doing much and also had an interaction earlier that would clear another person depending on what he flips imo. Thinking about one other person but need to see more content.

vote shubaka


So in your opinion you think they can't be different alignments at this point?
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This is towny mindset. Good progression on shub from pages ago, TBZ indifference is towny imo, and the identification of his possible connection read is good and new. Asking Caff the question at the end is a good way to correct his thinking in case he says yes.
U-Turn Out said:
ngl I don't remember a single post of his
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U-Turn Out said:
Probably town, I thought his earlier method of seeing who answers his question to determine who is mafia was a genuine attempt although I don't think it meant anything
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Both of these are good townlean reads based on the thread at that moment. Answering Tommy's questions without hesitation is also cool.
U-Turn Out said:
Can't Celever be pocketing eagle as scum since eagle is the most active poster in the thread?
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Townlean for correcting Caff like I said I thought he would.
Scoring:
Towny +2
Townlean +1
NAI +-0
Scumlean -1
Scummy -2

Towny - 1
Townlean - 3
NAI - 1
Scumlean - 0
Scummy - 1

Score with NAI:
3 / 6

Score without NAI:
3 / 5

Verdict:
I feel really good about this guy despite the low contribution
 
Eagle4 said:
sure but it feels dangerous getting rid of one of two experienced players (you and him, celever is experienced but hasn't played in a while so) on D1, when it would be nice to see their reaction once we get more info in d2
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Surely their reaction only really helps if they're town though, right? I don't see much reason to think he is.
 
ok maybe it's less about his reaction and more about the fact that i think it's 'dangerous' to get rid of former rn because in a world where former is town and duskfall is maf, duskfall has made life very easy for themselves with the other experienced voice gone
 
shubaka17

shubaka17 said:
i realize this is a player that just isn't familiar with tommy but this feels like "i can be yuor angle or ur devil" and i simply do not vibe with that
vote clarinet
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NAI for now but shubaka17 was this RVS.
shubaka17 said:
press X to doubt that caffbo lynch, cmon tbz

if we're claiming flavor i'm nidorina. if we aren't, then i'm not. yes i no im not


tbz already town reads bgb, this is another yikes. we should... cancel tbz sooner rather than later
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Assuming the first part of this is jokes, the latter is townlean. Shub was the first to point out tbz' unsubstantiated bgb tr iirc which is a good thing to flag.
shubaka17 said:
excellent, love these reads. except they're all inherently wrong. do i have any information supporting me? no. am i going to let that stop me? also no!

celever town i can see, caffbo is a reach, and bgb is just out of consideration at this point.
SB isn't mafia imo, slide bgb into that half slot
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This is a good critique of Eagle's readslist but I'm gonna be mean and NAI it because it was a very easy post to pick apart. Actually, the defence of SB while sliding bgb in there is a new contribution, he didn't substantiate it but it still diversifies the conversation a bit, so townlean.
Scoring:
Towny +2
Townlean +1
NAI +-0
Scumlean -1
Scummy -2

Towny - 0
Townlean - 2
NAI - 1
Scumlean - 0
Scummy - 0

Score with NAI:
2/3

Score without NAI:
2/2

Verdict:
Though he got full marks, the amount of content is too little to have this be a strong town read.
 
Eagle4 said:
ok maybe it's less about his reaction and more about the fact that i think it's 'dangerous' to get rid of former rn because in a world where former is town and duskfall is maf, duskfall has made life very easy for themselves with the other experienced voice gone
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I see where you're coming from and it's a point in favour of keeping Former around if we have another good option for a wagon. Who do you have in mind for that rn?
 
Rainbow (because I've been doing this for too long and Eagle's will be the most time consuming lmao)

Town Core:
Celever
Tommy
UTO

Townlean:
Charlie
Shub
Eagle

Null:
bgb

Scumlean:
Clarinet

Scum:
Former
TBZ

Here's where I'm at right now, I think. UTO in town core is bold but I'm content with it. Any of the townleans are kinda contenders to get in there once more posting happens from them, too.

So, once again, Vote Former (my vote's already on him but voting after a rainbow looks cool)
 
Celever said:
Can you give a top 3 lynch options?

Actually everyone should do this imo.
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i'm down for voting off clarinet or, well, tbz actually, looking back at their posts, which is made up of a bunch of unsubstantiated stuff

would love for tbz to actually get back to me on their reasoning for sussing clarinet

i don't have a third option tbh, just put 'no vote' in that slot
 
actually maybe put former in that third slot, duskfall had/has very similar reads to me in terms of towncore, which i'm a fan of, so the odds of duskfall being maf are actually very low and i think i'm just paranoid that with maf daychat this could be a duskfall/celever masterclass we're witnessing

but i'm pretty confident both are town lol
 
Eagle4 said:
actually maybe put former in that third slot, duskfall had/has very similar reads to me in terms of towncore, which i'm a fan of, so the odds of duskfall being maf are actually very low and i think i'm just paranoid that with maf daychat this could be a duskfall/celever masterclass we're witnessing

but i'm pretty confident both are town lol
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That is called tinfoiling and is generally a thing inexperienced people do, you are better off not following the tinfoil because you will lose more games off it than you win
 
Celever said:
As we're in the final 16 or so hours of the final day and I personally don't have a vote I'm happy with carrying out, I'm gonna go through and ISO every player in their own post, picking out stuff I find important, then hopefully if enough flags up for me I'll make a rainbow and a vote. Order of players is by their first post in the thread so I can click the ISO button. Hopefully these posts help frame our final discussions since it's gonna take me forever lmao

CaffeineBoost
This is the first post of much substance (after some cracking banter), in response to Eagle asking if he has substance to add beyond said banter. Saying none whatsoever is fairly NAI but it's worth identifying that he wasn't forcing any reads. At this stage in the game, most of the players hadn't done anything AI. Where Eagle was forcing reads for progression, Caff was holding off for that progress to reap reward. It's worth noting for meta.

Later he says he has a scum tone read on Tommy which actually I'd be curious in his explanation for, because at this stage in the game I remember town tonereading him. Correctly identifies that Former's tone was scummier than Tommy's after someone else pointed it out, but didn't jump ship to keep pressure on a larger number of players. Probably townlean from this.

NVM he second guessed. NAI

Calls bgb out on a badly phrased post where he votes Clarinet without providing reasoning. Combined with his double post:

I think this is potentially townlean. He critiqued the post because of the reasoning used in the post, not because of the outcome of it (Clarinet vote itself).

This was my first scumlean post from him and on a reread I still think it's a little scummy. Jumping off RVS is good at this stage in the game, but the reasoning in this post is very much critiquing Eagle for having lots of content and trying to make things happen, as opposed to the specific content. Eagle getting votes for essentially providing a rainbow was not a good case, and happened only after others soft-sussed him and made the same general points over the course of the day. Y'all know how this worked out and his defence was good, but I stand by that the defence doesn't make this less scummy it just earned him extra town points.

This earns town points from straight up admitting that that's what he did, which is towny since it probably shows he legitimately had different motivations with his post than what I described as potential motivations. However, I don't know Caff enough to know if he plays method or not (i.e. as mafia he literally gets into a towny mindset and pretends he's town in his own head). If he does, then this is less towny since he's getting town points for exactly that.

But then he finishes off the post with this, which right now I think is more scummy than I earlier gave it credit for. I mean, if myself or Eagle are mafia with Caff, this is a good way to set the foundation for a mislynch following one of our own lynches, which as others pointed out was flawed reasoning. Alternatively, if both Eagle and I are town, this could easily be a gambit to be ingratiated into the towncore. This was a very forced read, which Caff seems to try to avoid. This is therefore a notable divergence from his playstyle so far with potential scum motivations behind it. Of course, it could also be a misplay as town.

I think this comes from a townlean mindset, but that conclusion came after a while because I think that Caff and I approach D1 pretty differently. I certainly wouldn't count Eagle as having spammed anything, rather he was throwing everything at the wall to see what stuck. But I can understand Caff's perception of this, and if it's genuine then it's townlean to call it out because contentless spamming by a townie is great for scum.

Wait wait wait my earlier point about Caff possibly making this point to try and ingratiate into a towncore with me and Eagle was made before reading this post. Maybe I subconsciously remembered it. Regardless I uh... scumlean this because Caff's stated playstyle is organic progression whereas this is hella forced. But it's also a misplay as scum to so brazenly try to get into the towncore... while being a misplay for town too. Agh I'm sticking with scumlean but this post is just strange.

Sticking this here (this was responding to if he always votes Eagle before me) to ask if it still holds true now. NAI at this moment in time because it's steady progression with where else he was at.

This post lacks a lot of progression. BGB and I have not been flagged as scum by him before and we're suddenly his two targets. Scumlean for now, removed if he substantiates this position later.

Especially with his follow-up post where he reminded me that his scumleans were Tommy and Former (and Eagle). Does that mean that he had 5 scumleans at this time in the day? That's a lot, I don't get the impression that anyone else rivalled this. Throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks? But with this approach, it's from a scummier place since he's not providing content that elicits discussion, he's just FoSing loads of people as an alibi when he jumps on wagons. Scummy. CaffeineBoost reply to this paragraph please -- you had 5 scumleans at this point?

Odamn I missed that Caff did the same as me earlier than me where he tried to get Former to confirm if he's serious or not. Towny from this.

...........and then he piles a vote on, before Former responds. That's why I missed the last post. Scummy.


This is NAI but CaffeineBoost do this today please.

Also justify this please CaffeineBoost. NAI for now.

In response to a question about the shub wagon. Townlean for this, the shub wagon seems nonsense to me (though hopefully the ISOs will help me see why it exists). Regardless it was a hella out of the blue question and shutting it down is a viable town response.

Once again forgetting about Tommy and Former (though he has taking Former into his towncore apparently). Still interested in why I'm always there but he's never identified anything scummy I've done. Scumlean from having so many forced scumleans himself, and only really looking at the most active players that are easier to push for scum than inactive ones.

CaffeineBoost why's this scummy? NAI

Just jumped off BGB's vote, didn't vote anyone else, and then voted right back on him. I don't see anything BGB did at this time to cause this, and Former admitted to lying about being cop. Scumlean this is strange progression.
Scoring:
Towny +2
Townlean +1
NAI +-0
Scumlean -1
Scummy -2

Towny - 2
Townlean - 4
NAI - 5
Scumlean - 5
Scummy - 3

Score with NAI:
-3 / 19

Score without NAI:
-3 / 14

Overall Verdict:
Scumlean (who's good at defending themself)
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Some general questions to answer:
The thing I caught Tommy and Former on was a weird intro. Really not worth much. This'd be a score of -1 in your books. I don't have much of an opinion on Dusk other than that so he's null. Former however is probably town judging his posts after the cop claim.
Idk if voting Eagle before you holds true now. Had you asked before you posted a wall that's visible from space I'd have been sure you should be voted first.
5 scumleans bit: I think at this point BGB was a case of scummiest looking player. I remember his double inactive ping while voting Clarinet being weird and there was probably something else that I can't remember. As for you, I got the feeling from one maybe two of your posts that you were trying to undermine me. I've already addressed Tommy and Former.
Why am I voting BGB?: Similar reasons to Eagle. I suppose the best way I can describe him is all questions and no answers. Asking a ton of questions and doing next to nothing else seems like scum trying to look town.
Why do I townread Former?:
BGB voting pattern: had confidence, lost confidence, got confidence again... also BGB posted more stuff that made me suspect him in the first place.

I have no plans to read any of your other pbp's
 
CaffeineBoost said:
Some general questions to answer:
The thing I caught Tommy and Former on was a weird intro. Really not worth much. This'd be a score of -1 in your books. I don't have much of an opinion on Dusk other than that so he's null. Former however is probably town judging his posts after the cop claim.
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What are towny about them? I think they're very scummy.
Idk if voting Eagle before you holds true now. Had you asked before you posted a wall that's visible from space I'd have been sure you should be voted first.
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This is bad reasoning. Posting a wall is NAI. So disregarding that, why am I now the vote before Eagle, and where do I rank in your top 3 preferred targets today (if I rank at all)?
5 scumleans bit: I think at this point BGB was a case of scummiest looking player. I remember his double inactive ping while voting Clarinet being weird and there was probably something else that I can't remember. As for you, I got the feeling from one maybe two of your posts that you were trying to undermine me. I've already addressed Tommy and Former.
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How is disagreeing with you scummy? If town just agreed with each other then there'd be no use in discussion.
Why am I voting BGB?: Similar reasons to Eagle. I suppose the best way I can describe him is all questions and no answers. Asking a ton of questions and doing next to nothing else seems like scum trying to look town.
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This is reasonable, but do you believe this is scummier than anyone else? Could you look at my rainbow and argue why BGB is scummier than the 4 people below him.
BGB voting pattern: had confidence, lost confidence, got confidence again... also BGB posted more stuff that made me suspect him in the first place.
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What gave you your confidence on the vote back?
 
Celever said:
  1. What are towny about them? I think they're very scummy.
  2. This is bad reasoning. Posting a wall is NAI. So disregarding that, why am I now the vote before Eagle, and where do I rank in your top 3 preferred targets today (if I rank at all)?
  3. How is disagreeing with you scummy? If town just agreed with each other then there'd be no use in discussion.
  4. This is reasonable, but do you believe this is scummier than anyone else? Could you look at my rainbow and argue why BGB is scummier than the 4 people below him.
  5. What gave you your confidence on the vote back?
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Numbered for my convenience.
  1. Like I said, no opinion on Dusk. He opened abnormally but other than that it seems like regular old Dusk. As for Former, I already gave my opinion on them as you so helpfully omitted.
  2. After considering the possibility of buddying, you're more likely to be scum than Eagle. Specifically you S vs Eagle T is a more likely situation than you T vs Eagle S.
  3. It's not you disagreeing with me, it's the way in which you do so. On one occasion when you talked about my Eagle read you claimed I had fallen into a trap, and when Former said your response to his cop claim was bad you asked him if he had any better reads. This could certainly be my inference rather than your implication but to me you seem to have a habit of brushing opinions that go against what you think as bad. Straight up voting me after my Eagle vote also seemed really strange and warrants enough of an interaction for me to start theorizing about possible alignment implications.
  4. TBZ and Clarinet are doing the same thing they do every game. I'll probably always have null on TBZ, but I might be able to form an opinion on Clarinet if I iso'd about 5 of his games. BGB on the other hand has done things notably scummy which I have already stated.
  5. I had another bath.
 
Duskfall98 said:
That is called tinfoiling and is generally a thing inexperienced people do, you are better off not following the tinfoil because you will lose more games off it than you win
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yeah fair i realise i need to stop thinking 'what if this is a possibility' and think more 'which of these possibilities is more likely'

still not comfortable with voting former today
still would like to hear from tballz regarding clarinet
 
I didn’t omit anything about Former CaffeineBoost I think you deleted it yourself.

A lot of the logic in that post is pretty flawed but I’ve spent too much time in here today gonna stay on my phone for a while.
 
I am trying to catch up but there are a lot of walls and I have a headache so uh, give me a bit.

While I'm here, Tommy, idk Former's meta very well but from what I can tell this is very different from what he was doing last game, right? Do you still think this is something scum Former would do? bc ngl when I saw Former's first cop claim I was like "ahh he's been watching too much DisguisedToast" and ignored it.
 
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