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Minor detail: You can also hax slower Pokémon with Thunder Wave, and in some cases (like Flame Charge ZardX) you can use it for speed control too even though your opponent is slower.
But the one thing you're doing in this post is tackling the individual arguments. Yes you're right Mimikyu being a speed trap just means you'll need to be faster, yes you're right mimikyu only haxes faster non-ground mons without taunt and without sub. Yes you're right Mimikyu isn't the most unpredictable pokemon in the universe. If the universe were divided into people who want to ban mimikyu because it's a speed trap, people who want to ban it for haxing with thunderwave, and people who want to ban it because they think it's too unpredictable... Then yes you'd have just defended yourself against three armies. But truth is there are people who want to ban mimikyu for all 3 of your reasons. I think you've done a sufficient job proving that each of those individual arguments aren't enough to warrant a mimikyu ban, but I personally think that the biggest problem with mimikyu is that it not only speed traps slower pokemon, but also haxes faster pokemon. And to add more problems, it can also run a variety of offensive sets like Z-Charm, Bulk Up, Bulky Will-O-Wisp, or just your plain old SD+LSF or SD+NEN.
mimikyu doesnt really hax faster mons. after 4 subs with the twave set, the chance of mimikyu losing if the faster mon doesnt avoid twave is like 30%. 70% win isnt really considered hax is it? better argument than ALL 3 of those reasons would be "due to the lack of reliable counters to mimikyu it is broken", but again that would have to be proven. also, why say And to add more problems, it can also run a variety of offensive sets when you literally said earlier Yes you're right Mimikyu isn't the most unpredictable pokemon in the universe., running a variety of defensive and offensive sets isnt a reason to ban a mon, cus then any mon that can run a variety of offensive and defensive sets that are good would have this problem. some examples would probably gardevoir, deo s, and shit and like other stuff that im too tired to think of. Again tho, your biggest problem doesnt make sense if the win is 70% since that isnt hax, but ok.
aphrion thats rude :( i have feelings too. And i did put my opinion on mimikyu. Ok, going on, sleep is problematic. With a check gone, named koko, it makes sleep much better. With jumpluff and snorlax, they use the mechanic in different ways. Jumpluff uses sleep to put it to sleep (obviously) and leech seed the opponent. Once it leech seeds the opponent, it basically comes down to if the opponent has a flame charge or speed boosting move. (assuming they dont wake turn 1) Snorlax uses sleep to set up on opponents or get free damage off. For that to happen tho, snorlax must live a move or the opponent to not have sub. If the opposing threat doesnt neither, u have a high chance to win. Usually after its asleep, u can belly drum or attack straight out to kill the opponent. Thats what i get from sleep. aphrion, :(
>repeating everything that was already said. Can we just all say sleep is uncompetitive and get along with a ban? I havent seen any counter statements.
Hey guys, ur favorite aidan (still) here.
Todays topic is sleep.
I understand all the troubles with sleep like u "need to run sub or taunt or ohko etc." I have used sleep on an alt called aidan is testing and used sleep from 1000 and seen how high i can get with it and its effectiveness. I ended up reaching 1550 but had trouble with many games with sub taunt, etc. This made me think harder and strategize what i should do turn 1 and instead of yawn, protect first 2 turns. I think sleep is an legit strat that while yes, can be uncompetitive actually requires thought to work instead of yawn + protect turn 1 and 2. Im sure Fertile Crescent can confirm this as I have seen a bunch of his games in which, he had to actually think when using snorlax and how u need to do a turn 100% correctly or else u will lose. You can have hax and get a 3 turn sleep but, getting turn 1 and 2 sleeps are common and can be beaten with speed inducing moves aka jumpluff vs flame charge char x/y. And taunt/sub with snorlax and the many other yawn users.
This is a short post bcz yeah mobile. I hope I got some point across somehow and yeah, argue about this if u want, i probably missed a few points.
Your initial post was good, but the rest basically ignored every counterargument made since then. That's a relatively high amount of bad posts from you on this topic.
To be really fair though, I was being unnecessarily harsh - looking into your post history, normally you do try to contribute decent material, and I guess I didn't realize that, having wrongly seen your last couple posts as representative of all your posts, and I'm really sorry for that. I'm just very frustrated by this sleep argument because I think that of all the haxy, RNG-based mechanics and strategies in 1v1, sleep seems a fairly arbitrary choice to ban for me. Sleep is usually a terrible strategy - even the math on ban posts demonstrates that! But apparently some people find it so frustrating as to call it uncompetitive, because they don't like having their Pokemon statused into defeat by an unexpected strategy. Sure, it sucks to be put to sleep. It also sucks to be flinched, paralyzed, burned, poisoned... Heck, paralysis, though it's been nerfed, can disable you just like sleep, except you can't wake up from paralysis. Sleep is just part of the game, and we should prepare to deal with it accordingly.
Yes, many moves have less than 100% accuracy, and yes, many moves have beneficial side effects that can turn the tables in what would have been a lost matchup.
That's a given, but you inherently cannot be absolute with that mindset without the inclusion of OHKO moves. Just like any other move, they have a set accuracy, and just like any other <100% accurate move, they can miss.
What's the difference?
OHKO moves completely render the opposing Pokemon useless in the sense of instantly knocking them out. "But wait, using really strong moves like Head Smash and Hyper Beam do the same thing! We better ban those too!", this mindset simply does not apply, as OHKO moves, much like Sleep-inducing moves, act without regards to type matchups or the individual mon's stats; they either do or don't work, based solely on RNG and nothing else.
To make the point even easier to understand, have an illustration:
OHKO Moves. At the top of the hierarchy for good reason. All you need to do is hit, and you're golden. Basically the perfect coverage move to hit anything besides Sturdy mons.
Evasion Boosting/Accuracy Dropping. They don't instantly win, but they basically make you immune to damage, if you're lucky enough. Unlike Z-evasion or Brightpowder, Evasion boosting and accuracy dropping moves are stackable, such to the extent that your opponent will only have a 1/3 chance to do anything to you at all (when set up as much as possible).
Perish Song. In the context of 1v1, it made matchups absolute in the sense that the battle will literally end in 3 turns. This forced many mons to either run hyper offensive sets in order to counteract it, or Taunt in order to prevent it from being used at all.
Swagger. It was the most exemplary move when it came to forcing switches (in 6v6), before being banned. Like other immobilization-based strategies, it worked solely based off of the set percentage of instances in which the opponents are rendered incapable of doing anything for that turn, with the added benefit of them dealing damage to themselves, based off of their own Attack stat, which Swagger very conveniently adds a +2 boost to. Swagger's threat to competitive play is only aided by the fact that nearly every Pokemon is capable of learning it. Due to Gen 7 Confusion chances being dropped from 50% per turn to 33%, as well as Swagger's accuracy nerf, Swagger was unbanned from the main tiers on account of not haxing battles as badly as it used to, though it still remains banned in a handful of non-main tiers and metagames (LC, Monotype, 1v1, CAP LC, 2v2, DOU, and DUU).
Sleep-inducing Moves. In the context of 1v1, they effectively put your entire team to sleep, rendering you incapable of doing anything about it other than hoping that the %-based chance of waking up sooner works in your favor. Much like Perish Song, the strategy requires opponents to carry Taunt or hyper offensive sets in order to keep from losing.
RNG-manipulating Moves. These mainly include attacks that either have a beneficial secondary chance, are inaccurate but useful as long as they hit, or a combination of both. Unlike how all the above moves are used, these moves also have to factor in the additional context of dealing damage, which involves management of type matchup and overall offensive and defensive statistics of you and your opponent's Pokemon. What separates these moves from regular old moves is that they are often inefficient in comparison to other moves within a mon's learnset, but are often preferred due to the added benefit of being able to "hax" opponents, which is innately uncompetitive. However, results of haxing through these moves vary from matchup to matchup, much like Jirachi's matchups against various opponents in which it needs different numbers of flinches in order to win. Since no other hax strategy involving these moves works comparably as often as Jirachi, or such to the extent that the community and council would believe is "too much", these moves and their abusers have been left more or less untouched, for now.
Regular Old Moves. These are just regular attacks that deal damage, nothing more, nothing less. Like the RNG-manipulating Moves above, these moves have to take type matchup and bulk/power into consideration when using them. The main difference between the two is that these moves either rely solely on the damage they're dealing as a win condition, or that the chance they have at "haxing" opponents is so miniscule that it often isn't taken into account when considering matchups.
It is up to us and the council to decide where in this hierarchy we draw the line to determine what is and isn't uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban, and it is to my belief that that line should be drawn just below Sleep-inducing Moves, due to how they reduce battles to mere uncontrollable RNG far more often than Iron Head flinches, Focus Blast misses, damage rolls, or any other uncontrollable random chance does. Now please stop using the accuracy argument as reasoning or I will smack you
ryy already put it pretty well, but your whole argument is borne out of a subjective view of sleep's uncompetitiveness. It's necessarily subjective, but I think this view of sleep - and your entire hierarchy of uncompetitiveness - is flawed. According to your hierarchy, you say that sleep moves effectively put your entire team to sleep, which is true. However, the idea that having to hope for the right roll to wake up quickly is uncompetitive is like saying it's uncompetitive to not get a flinch with Dark Pulse when you need it - you're relying on a known low-probability roll to save your butt after you made a bad choice (whether or not you realized your choice was bad is immaterial, since). Also, you included regular moves on this hierarchy, implying that in your mind we could approach a point where dealing damage could be considered uncompetitive. Hax happens - some of it is generally too powerful, like OHKO and acc/evasion moves, but generally the rest of it seems to have equal weight in frustration and uncompetitiveness.
However, the idea that having to hope for the right roll to wake up quickly is uncompetitive is like saying it's uncompetitive to not get a flinch with Dark Pulse when you need it - you're relying on a known low-probability roll to save your butt after you made a bad choice (whether or not you realized your choice was bad is immaterial, since).
It is uncompetitive to use a move with the purpose being strictly to hax. The difference between Dark Pulse flinches (and any other RNG-manipulating Move) and Sleep is that Sleep hax reaches an intolerable level with how often it works, while Dark Pulse and everything else doesn't even come close with how often they force matches down to sheer numbers, rather than just having two people being able to play and enjoy a game.
Also, you included regular moves on this hierarchy, implying that in your mind we could approach a point where dealing damage could be considered uncompetitive. Hax happens - some of it is generally too powerful, like OHKO and acc/evasion moves, but generally the rest of it seems to have equal weight in frustration and uncompetitiveness.
The hierarchy is supposed to be a scale of uncompetitiveness. Nearly EVERYTHING is uncompetitive to certain extents, and regular moves are at the bottom of the scale for good reason, being that the only RNG they can enforce is the occasional crit or 10% secondary effect. It's highly unlikely that we would ever reach the point of regular moves or even most RNG-manipulating moves being banned, but that doesn't mean that they don't still have uncompetitive elements to them, just that these elements are tolerable in comparison to OHKO, Perish Song, Swagger, etc.
It is uncompetitive to use a move with the purpose being strictly to hax. The difference between Dark Pulse flinches (and any other RNG-manipulating Move) and Sleep is that Sleep hax reaches an intolerable level with how often it works, while Dark Pulse and everything else doesn't even come close with how often they force matches down to sheer numbers, rather than just having two people being able to play and enjoy a game.
The goal of sleep isn’t to hax out a win by guessing when the opponent wil wake up, sleep is used to establish a successive amount of free turns to set up a win condition.
There’s a reason Jumpluff does sleep powder > substitute > analyze the situation and not sleep powder > leech seed > pray for good luck.
The goal of sleep isn’t to hax out a win by guessing when the opponent wil wake up, sleep is used to establish a successive amount of free turns to set up a win condition.
This is only done reliably by Speed Traps with Substitute.
Everything else needs that extra one or two turns, which, "wouldn't ya know it!", is hax. And you can't mitigate that with Substitute to the same effect as with Speed Traps.
There’s a reason Jumpluff does sleep powder > substitute > analyze the situation and not sleep powder > leech seed > pray for good luck.
OK, so I think It's time for me to present my argument about sleep (not mimikyu).
Firstly, all the yawn + protect sleep relies on good bulk, so not all pokemon can pull it off. For instance, snorlax barely ever runs absolute maximum physical bulk, allowing it to get beaten by things such as choice band/fightingium kartana, mega heracross, and pheremosa. If you are forced to run set up, to allow for more bulk EVs, this leaves you weak to things that resist it. For instance, snorlax only ever runs double edge as an attacking move, so things like mega gengar (sleep or no sleep), mega aggron and mega steelix can beat it etc. My point here is, you need to be bulky, fast or both to utilize sleep to its fullest.
Second, every sleep pokemon relies on luck to win. Yawn + protect relies on them not waking up and KOing you. Sleep powder relies on the chance of hitting and them not waking up. Vivillion.... no, just ban sleep. Vivillion defines uncompetitive. Sleep is just haxing a win out of an opponent.
Thirdly, one of the main counters to sleep is now gone: Tapu Koko. Not much other stuff can reliably beat it (>>>>>>>>>insomnia murkrow), so it's a weak point to many teams. Sure, things like mega diancy (barely ever used), mega absol (ZU 1v1) and mega sablye (sometimes used. Not much) can beat it, and because of that, I can see a huge rise of their usage once people remember Magic bounce.
Lastly, that was the last point.
OK, this was rushed, so feel free to poke as many flaws in my logic as you like, as well as my spelling of diancie. My overall opinion of sleep is to BAN. Totally not because of that time when TSC trolled me with a breloom.
I swear the council is deliberately keeping us waiting to annoy us!!!
Here's a huge differentiation that I've been seeing people miss all over the place: Deciding to use something that can cause you to lose to hax but not your opponent is not uncompetitive (Focus Blast). Using something that can cause your opponent to lose to hax is uncompetitive (Cottonee).
Thirdly, one of the main counters to sleep is now gone: Tapu Koko. Not much other stuff can reliably beat it (>>>>>>>>>insomnia murkrow), so it's a weak point to many teams. Sure, things like mega diancy (barely ever used), mega absol (ZU 1v1) and mega sablye (sometimes used. Not much) can beat it, and because of that, I can see a huge rise of their usage once people remember Magic bounce.
You cannot, under any circumstances, define sleep by its number of counters. You literally cannot counter sleep - it's a status. You counter sleep users, not sleep itself. Similarly, you can have strategies that beat many sleep users, but not all of them. Imagine trying to make a Pokemon that beats every Water type in the game - it's a frankly absurd notion.
Many sleep users fall into the Focus Blast category, some fall under the Cottonee category, but the majority fall under both categories. Losing to a Jumpluff under standard conditions isn't you getting haxed, it's you losing to something that you should expect to lose to. Hax in terms of sleep, against the person facing the sleep, in its most common forms (Snorlax, Jumpluff), occurs only in very specific matchups. Snorlax getting 2 turns of sleep (66%) isn't you losing to hax, it's you losing to something you should expect to lose to. I can't stress that enough. Of course, sleep hax does happen - take Snorlax vs Mega Metagross or Jumpluff vs Flame Charge Charizard, for example. My point, however, is that these situations are specific and not general applicable to any given match.
Firstly, all the yawn + protect sleep relies on good bulk, so not all pokemon can pull it off. For instance, snorlax barely ever runs absolute maximum physical bulk, allowing it to get beaten by things such as choice band/fightingium kartana, mega heracross, and pheremosa. If you are forced to run set up, to allow for more bulk EVs, this leaves you weak to things that resist it. For instance, snorlax only ever runs double edge as an attacking move, so things like mega gengar (sleep or no sleep), mega aggron and mega steelix can beat it etc. My point here is, you need to be bulky, fast or both to utilize sleep to its fullest.
It quickly makes you fall asleep, subs, so it can make you sleep again reliably when you wake up, and sets up right in your face just to annoy/beat you. How is that not uncompetitive?
You cannot, under any circumstances, define sleep by its number of counters. You literally cannot counter sleep - it's a status. You counter sleep users, not sleep itself. Similarly, you can have strategies that beat many sleep users, but not all of them. Imagine trying to make a Pokemon that beats every Water type in the game - it's a frankly absurd notion.
OK, that's one of my logic flaws, fine. But I mean that things like Tapu Koko did counter everything that relies on sleep. Unless you're someone as stupid as ZPF, who would run telepathy. There are probably no other pokemon that can check all those sleep pokemon, and I'm not prepared to waste more than one team slot to check all the sleep mons.
Personally, I don't understand your opinion at all. It means that only insanely bulky pokemon (mega aggron and mega steelix) or insanely offensive pokemon (^). things like mega aggron and mega steelix aren't that good (and go straight on to be beaten by yawn+protect camerupt-mega) and pheremosa is frail and kartana isn't that quick or defensive(meh defensive utility). These are some of the VERY few yawnlax checks in the game and even 252 attack choice band sacred sword kartana can't ohko 252hp, 252+ defense snorlax. What wins against one yawn + protect mon, loses to another.
I agree with the rest. Waiting is insanely annoying, though.
Here's a huge differentiation that I've been seeing people miss all over the place: Deciding to use something that can cause you to lose to hax but not your opponent is not uncompetitive (Focus Blast). Using something that can cause your opponent to lose to hax is uncompetitive (Cottonee).
I agree with most of the rest of your post, but not with this particular bit. There's not any real sense in which "hax" is determined towards one way or another; if we take Zap cannon as an example, both it hitting and it missing could be considered hax, depending on which player you are. When we move up to focus blast, or stone edge, or down to sheer cold, this doesn't really change; who is "haxed" by a probability-based attack is a sliding scale rather than a flat demarcation.
This is only done reliably by Speed Traps with Substitute.
Everything else needs that extra one or two turns, which, "wouldn't ya know it!", is hax. And you can't mitigate that with Substitute to the same effect as with Speed Traps.
"There's a reason Snorlax does yawn > protect > analyze the situation and not belly drum > double edge > pray for good matchup."
Except it’s not like every match up against snorlax is determined by if I wake up turn 1 I win.
You have to be bulky enough to survive a Breakneck Blitz, bulky with defensive boosts to survive a +6 double edge, or be able to deal more than 50% damage to Snorlax to even have your game even close to coming into the context of Sleep turns.
It quickly makes you fall asleep, subs, so it can make you sleep again reliably when you wake up, and sets up right in your face just to annoy/beat you. How is that not uncompetitive?
What part of that is?
Literally nothing you described is any part rng-dependent and uncompetitive.
OK, that's one of my logic flaws, fine. But I mean that things like Tapu Koko did counter everything that relies on sleep. Unless you're someone as stupid as ZPF, who would run telepathy. There are probably no other pokemon that can check all those sleep pokemon, and I'm not prepared to waste more than one team slot to check all the sleep mons.
I didn’t realize Tapu Koko countered Mega Camerupt or Stunfisk. Or if you want to listen to some other people Mega Venusaur.
Personally, I don't understand your opinion at all. It means that only insanely bulky pokemon (mega aggron and mega steelix) or insanely offensive pokemon (^). things like mega aggron and mega steelix aren't that good (and go straight on to be beaten by yawn+protect camerupt-mega) and pheremosa is frail and kartana isn't that quick or defensive(meh defensive utility). These are some of the VERY few yawnlax checks in the game and even 252 attack choice band sacred sword kartana can't ohko 252hp, 252+ defense snorlax. What wins against one yawn + protect mon, loses to another.
I agree with the rest. Waiting is insanely annoying, though.
Literally every single ghost type will beat a set of Yawn/protect/double edge/belly drum that runs a single not-ghost move.
Celesteela, Necrozma, and some other defensive ID users also are favored.
And then there are the fighting type Pokémon jolly Mega Lopunny can win, but is roll dependent and unflavored, but adamant (disclosure not my preferred nature) is not rol dependent and favored. Mega lucario and mega medicham, LO Blaziken all Ko before Yawn is even used and mega Blaziken is heavily favored.
Except it’s not like every match up against snorlax is determined by if I wake up turn 1 I win.
You have to be bulky enough to survive a Breakneck Blitz, bulky with defensive boosts to survive a +6 double edge, or be able to deal more than 50% damage to Snorlax to even have your game even close to coming into the context of Sleep turns.
Fair enough, I was instead going to use Grasswhistle Whimsicott as an example, but was worried that you'd mark it off as an "obscure and inferior" set, but then you bring this up-
And then there are the fighting type Pokémon jolly Mega Lopunny can win, but is roll dependent and unflavored, but adamant (disclosure not my preferred nature) is not rol dependent and favored. Mega lucario and mega medicham, LO Blaziken all Ko before Yawn is even used and mega Blaziken is heavily favored.
Are you for "obscure" sets or against them, man? For someone who got so feisty about me bringing up Adamant Charizard-X, you sure seem to rely on things like Iron Head Genesect and Adamant Lopunny (and all those other mons, in general) a whole lot-
What part of that is?
Literally nothing you described is any part rng-dependent and uncompetitive.
Since you seem very hard to convince as to what is and isn't uncompetitive, why don't you explain your thought process, instead? There clearly seems to be some element of dissent between what you and most others consider "uncompetitive", so an explanation would be more appreciated than all this back-and-forth.
Since you seem very hard to convince as to what is and isn't uncompetitive, why don't you explain your thought process, instead? There clearly seems to be some element of dissent between what you and most others consider "uncompetitive", so an explanation would be more appreciated than all this back-and-forth.
I completely agree with this. Osra along with many others on the pro ban side have outlined our view of uncompetitive (it angers me so much we use uncompetitive instead of noncompetitive which is a real word) in multiple posts and I believe that most of our side supports their view. The argument most of the time from the anti ban side is "that's not uncompetitive (cringe), do you even know what that is?!" A definitive definition from your point of view would both help your argument and allow the opposing side to see where you are coming from.
This is actually a trainwreck. A dumpster fire, maybe? Oooh, train fire perhaps? Yeah, we'll go with that.
This discussion has seriously gotten pathetic. At this point, the argumenters left on the two sides of the sleep debate are relying on the most nitpicky shit, surgically dissecting every little crevice and sentence out of their opponent's points and pulling out the most obscure calculations and statistics you can possibly get when it comes to RNG and sleep rolls and such.
And it's not like this storm of naggings is getting us anywhere, oh no. On the contrary, this diatribe has been droning on for pages upon pages upon pages, and despite all of the opposing viewpoints, the number crunching, the debates, there isn't an end in sight. I would say that we've gone back to square one, but it feels like we never went beyond square one to begin with.
But the main reason I find this so silly and stupid is because of the subject matter. Let's look back at some previous tiering decisions the community debated. Kyurem-Black, a meta-defining threat which was utterly unparalleled in terms of power and versatility? On and off discussion for a week or so leading up to suspects and the eventual ban. Jirachi, a Pokemon who, with just one set, could potentially cheese past anything that wasn't a Steel type? Again, a week or so of discussion, with an eventual quickban.
Now, let's look back to this never-ending cyclone of a debate. I have already emphasized the scale and controversy sorrounding it. Remind me, what's it over? 3 Pokemon who get little ladder usage, who often use only one set, who nobody was even contemplating looking into for a ban prior to this whole Sleep hype. Are you guys starting to realize how retarded this all is?
This fiasco reminds me a lot of the briefly-lived Regenerator suspect in Little Cup. When that suspect started in LC, it drew much ire for feeling insincere and unnecessary, like it was just being done to force a meta change rather than actually being unhealthy. Except in LC, Regenerator Pokemon actually have significant dominance over the metagame, and it's almost understandable why some would debate their healthiness. Sleep Pokemon in 1v1 can only dream of being as omnipresent and important as Regen Pokemon in LC. I truly do feel like this was brought up by people not because they believed it was really unhealthy, even if they may think so, but mainly because people just want something to change in a currently pretty stable metagame.
Look, I'm sure you've figured it out by now, but in short, I don't think sleep should be banned. I think it's just another thing to take into account while teambuilding. The arguments about it being uncompetitive are mute to me because Sleep users like Jumpluff will never cheese past checks and counters like Jirachi or accuracy droppers could when those were around. But that's not the real point of this post. The point is that this debate has gotten stale and icky, with people just being overly nitpicky and abrasive towards the opposition. And it's this increasingly toxic atmosphere that makes me think it's about time to wrap things up and have the council make their decision.
Fair enough, I was instead going to use Grasswhistle Whimsicott as an example, but was worried that you'd mark it off as an "obscure and inferior" set, but then you bring this up-
Are you for "obscure" sets or against them, man? For someone who got so feisty about me bringing up Adamant Charizard-X, you sure seem to rely on things like Iron Head Genesect and Adamant Lopunny (and all those other mons, in general) a whole lot-
Since you seem very hard to convince as to what is and isn't uncompetitive, why don't you explain your thought process, instead? There clearly seems to be some element of dissent between what you and most others consider "uncompetitive", so an explanation would be more appreciated than all this back-and-forth.
Fair, I try to be very balanced between theorymonning and real usage. The quote I was responding to was about hard counters to Snorlax, so I brought up a very specific if not optimal set that did what was asked of it. I also disclosed that this isn't a set that I generally endorse. Meanwhile, you're bringing up unoptimal sets that aren't run not to accomplish a goal, but rather to give an option of some obscure matchup, when the real one doesn't depend on RNG.
Iron Head Scarf Genesect is very good viable option, that really shouldn't even be compared to Adamant Charizard X. Adamant Lopunny meanwhile, does a specific job, with much less opportunity cost than Adamant Charizard X, still hitting greater than a +115 speed tier.
Uncompetitiveness is when matchups that are determined solely by RNG factors that players put on their opponent. The post I was quoting said merely putting a slower pokemon to sleep, setting up substitute, and then setting up Quiver dance was somehow uncompetitive. There was no RNG dependance in that consideration.
I've felt like I've been clear on what it would be to convince me sleep is uncompetitive. The random part of sleep is the amount of turns you're opponent is asleep, so if a significant number of match-ups are determined solely, on the chance of a single (or potentially two) sleep turn rolls.
This goes beyond merely stating "oh well each turn is a 1/3rd chance bam random, uncompetitive next," it requires analyzing the sleep in context. Does it really matter if you wake up on turn 1 or turn 2 if you already lost from the perspective of the opposing pokemon setting up their win condition or having an easy chance of doing it again.
I completely agree with this. Osra along with many others on the pro ban side have outlined our view of uncompetitive (it angers me so much we use uncompetitive instead of noncompetitive which is a real word) in multiple posts and I believe that most of our side supports their view. The argument most of the time from the anti ban side is "that's not uncompetitive (cringe), do you even know what that is?!" A definitive definition from your point of view would both help your argument and allow the opposing side to see where you are coming from.
I also agree with this entirely. I am on the pro ban side.
But the problem is I see a LOT of YawnLax and Pluff on the ladder, so much so that I have an Infernape in my team with Taunt just to shut them down and OHKO them(Fake Out chip and then Blast Burn/All Out Pummeling/Taunt). Sleep has gotten to the point where you have to have a counter to it on a team, otherwise you can be absolutely walled by it. I chose Infernape because it’s Fire-Fighting type beats Pluff and YawnLax, has access to Taunt and Fake Out, and can run mixed sets. Anyway, I’ve seen a variety of Sleep users, but the ones that are the biggest threat are Lax and Pluff. MScep, Maybe, but low accuracy. I have seen Spore-Imprison-Transform before, but Fake Out+Close Combat or Taunt shuts Smeargle down.
Spore doesn’t really need to be banned but I am in favour of banning Yawn and low-acc moves, although that might be an unpopular opinion.
I’m not going to jump in the “Sleep is uncompetitive” argument as I’m not qualified to answer questions like that.
This is actually a trainwreck. A dumpster fire, maybe? Oooh, train fire perhaps? Yeah, we'll go with that.
This discussion has seriously gotten pathetic. At this point, the argumenters left on the two sides of the sleep debate are relying on the most nitpicky shit, surgically dissecting every little crevice and sentence out of their opponent's points and pulling out the most obscure calculations and statistics you can possibly get when it comes to RNG and sleep rolls and such.
And it's not like this storm of naggings is getting us anywhere, oh no. On the contrary, this diatribe has been droning on for pages upon pages upon pages, and despite all of the opposing viewpoints, the number crunching, the debates, there isn't an end in sight. I would say that we've gone back to square one, but it feels like we never went beyond square one to begin with.
But the main reason I find this so silly and stupid is because of the subject matter. Let's look back at some previous tiering decisions the community debated. Kyurem-Black, a meta-defining threat which was utterly unparalleled in terms of power and versatility? On and off discussion for a week or so leading up to suspects and the eventual ban. Jirachi, a Pokemon who, with just one set, could potentially cheese past anything that wasn't a Steel type? Again, a week or so of discussion, with an eventual quickban.
Now, let's look back to this never-ending cyclone of a debate. I have already emphasized the scale and controversy sorrounding it. Remind me, what's it over? 3 Pokemon who get little ladder usage, who often use only one set, who nobody was even contemplating looking into for a ban prior to this whole Sleep hype. Are you guys starting to realize how retarded this all is?
This fiasco reminds me a lot of the briefly-lived Regenerator suspect in Little Cup. When that suspect started in LC, it drew much ire for feeling insincere and unnecessary, like it was just being done to force a meta change rather than actually being unhealthy. Except in LC, Regenerator Pokemon actually have significant dominance over the metagame, and it's almost understandable why some would debate their healthiness. Sleep Pokemon in 1v1 can only dream of being as omnipresent and important as Regen Pokemon in LC. I truly do feel like this was brought up by people not because they believed it was really unhealthy, even if they may think so, but mainly because people just want something to change in a currently pretty stable metagame.
Look, I'm sure you've figured it out by now, but in short, I don't think sleep should be banned. I think it's just another thing to take into account while teambuilding. The arguments about it being uncompetitive are mute to me because Sleep users like Jumpluff will never cheese past checks and counters like Jirachi or accuracy droppers could when those were around. But that's not the real point of this post. The point is that this debate has gotten stale and icky, with people just being overly nitpicky and abrasive towards the opposition. And it's this increasingly toxic atmosphere that makes me think it's about time to wrap things up and have the council make their decision.
No.
Firstly, this discussion isn’t “Going nowhere”. It’s a controversial topic so of course the discussion is going to be long. Everyone deserves a chance to be heard, do they not? This discussion isn’t even full of insults or anything besides discussion.
Secondly, sleep is not only three mons. I don’t even know which three you’re referring to (Probably Jumpluff lax and either megagar or megavenu), but either way it’s wrong. Also, usage is not an argument against banning it. Why do so many people use usage as an argument? It drives me up the freaking wall. As an example, deo-d saw small enough usage to be 1v1 uu before it was banned, and did anyone complain about banning that?
Thirdly, the regenerator suspect was literally an April fools joke, so... Also, why bring up dominance? Sleep is being argued for a ban because it’s uncompetitive, not because it has an iron grip over the meta, and every single pro-ban post states that. Also, banning sleep wouldn’t do much to change the meta like at all, so that’s not correct. If people wanted to change the meta so bad, they would try to ban mega gyara or something. So stop.
“Sleep users will never cheese past their checks and counters” ...what?Snorlax can’t cheese past bulky steel types with good sleep turns? Jumpluff can’t cheese past flame charge Zard with good sleep turns? ??? Also, I don’t understand what you mean by the discussion is “Toxic”. You say it’s nitpicking, but you don’t say what you mean. And people aren’t being abrasive, at least no more than in a usual debate.
From my perspective, this discussion has been going along well. What’s bad is shitty call out posts that add nothing and just take up space, kind of like one-liners. Look, when the community had that big unbanning fetish, it did need a good kick in the balls. Now, it appears you’re just looking for things to get mad over. Please, next time you post, try to add something.
Sorry if the wording in this was overly harsh. Mods, I’ll delete this if you want, but I feel like this has to be said
I also agree with this entirely. I am on the pro ban side.
But the problem is I see a LOT of YawnLax and Pluff on the ladder, so much so that I have an Infernape in my team with Taunt just to shut them down and OHKO them(Fake Out chip and then Blast Burn/All Out Pummeling/Taunt). Sleep has gotten to the point where you have to have a counter to it on a team, otherwise you can be absolutely walled by it. I chose Infernape because it’s Fire-Fighting type beats Pluff and YawnLax, has access to Taunt and Fake Out, and can run mixed sets. Anyway, I’ve seen a variety of Sleep users, but the ones that are the biggest threat are Lax and Pluff. MScep, Maybe, but low accuracy. I have seen Spore-Imprison-Transform before, but Fake Out+Close Combat or Taunt shuts Smeargle down.
Spore doesn’t really need to be banned but I am in favour of banning Yawn and low-acc moves, although that might be an unpopular opinion.
I’m not going to jump in the “Sleep is uncompetitive” argument as I’m not qualified to answer questions like that.
i have to run a gyarados, zard, mimikyu, etc counter (to any viable mon or strategy) or else im walled by it. see the problem with your pro ban argument?
i have to run a gyarados, zard, mimikyu, etc counter (to any viable mon or strategy) or else im walled by it. see the problem with your pro ban argument?
You actually don’t need to run ALL counters to all viable mons, because frankly that’s impossible. Role compression works too. And you’re not actually walled by ‘mons you don’t counter, because they may check the mons giving you trouble. Infernape wins most of the time against Magnezone but some exceptional cases means it only checks Magnezone, not counter. Before Koko was banned, Koko countered/checked all of GyaraM, Mimik and Zard X/Y.
Also, please explain the flaw in my argument. I have my own reasoning for what I said.
You actually don’t need to run ALL counters to all viable mons, because frankly that’s impossible. Role compression works too. And you’re not actually walled by ‘mons you don’t counter, because they may check the mons giving you trouble. Infernape wins most of the time against Magnezone but some exceptional cases means it only checks Magnezone, not counter. Before Koko was banned, Koko countered/checked all of GyaraM, Mimik and Zard X/Y.
Also, please explain the flaw in my argument. I have my own reasoning for what I said.
Dude, role compression is a very good way to get sleep counters on a team. For example, meloetta and charizard Y counter every sleep Pokemon bar snorlax(which is easily countered by literally every ghost type and/or physically attacking fighting type in existence) while still providing other services, such as, for meloetta, being a surprisingly tanky physical and special wall while hitting like a truck, or for zardy, being an absolute fusion bomb with the ability to beat its resists easily by using SolarBeam and HP Electric (this is actually necessary to beat some gyaradi). You don’t need a dedicated “I beat all sleep mons” Pokemon that only beats sleepers, like that strange Infernape set you mentioned, because if you’re using vaguely decent Pokemon you’re already going to have counters without even trying.
Dude, role compression is a very good way to get sleep counters on a team. For example, meloetta and charizard Y counter every sleep Pokemon bar snorlax(which is easily countered by literally every ghost type and/or physically attacking fighting type in existence) while still providing other services, such as, for meloetta, being a surprisingly tanky physical and special wall while hitting like a truck, or for zardy, being an absolute fusion bomb with the ability to beat its resists easily by using SolarBeam and HP Electric (this is actually necessary to beat some gyaradi). You don’t need a dedicated “I beat all sleep mons” Pokemon that only beats sleepers, like that strange Infernape set you mentioned, because if you’re using vaguely decent Pokemon you’re already going to have counters without even trying.
But problem is, yes you do need “I beat all sleep mons” Pokemon. Sure, you will have counters/checks without trying, but what if they change the set? What is Lax forgoes Belly Drum for a coverage move? That’s not as good a set as Belly Drum, but who knows, people might do that, and you might be screwed, unless the mon you sent out counters that too. And, sleep is an actual play style, something people build their teams around. Mostly a core of Lax and Pluff, which I’ve seen in the ladder, with various others such as MScep, Whimsicott, Smeargle, Amoongus, Breloom etc.
I originally wanted to say something else but now I’ve forgotten it, I’ll post it back if I ever remember.
Also a side note, Breloom hits HARD, even without the aid of SD/Spore.
But problem is, yes you do need “I beat all sleep mons” Pokemon. Sure, you will have counters/checks without trying, but what if they change the set? What is Lax forgoes Belly Drum for a coverage move? That’s not as good a set as Belly Drum, but who knows, people might do that, and you might be screwed, unless the mon you sent out counters that too. And, sleep is an actual play style, something people build their teams around. Mostly a core of Lax and Pluff, which I’ve seen in the ladder, with various others such as MScep, Whimsicott, Smeargle, Amoongus, Breloom etc.
I originally wanted to say something else but now I’ve forgotten it, I’ll post it back if I ever remember.
Also a side note, Breloom hits HARD, even without the aid of SD/Spore.
If they changed their set, they cteamed you. Cteams exist with and without sleep in the metagame. If anything, cteaming becomes easier with sleep gone as it opens up a moveslot. Playstyles don't exist in 1v1. A good player will absolutely never, when trying to build a 1v1 team, have a "theme" or playstyle in mind unless they're going to use some kind of obscure lure. Sleep is a category of sets, just like Water types or Dragon Dancers. Popular teammates for Snorlax and Jumpluff according to usage stats... neither are anywhere to be found.
But problem is, yes you do need “I beat all sleep mons” Pokemon. Sure, you will have counters/checks without trying, but what if they change the set? What is Lax forgoes Belly Drum for a coverage move? That’s not as good a set as Belly Drum, but who knows, people might do that, and you might be screwed, unless the mon you sent out counters that too. And, sleep is an actual play style, something people build their teams around. Mostly a core of Lax and Pluff, which I’ve seen in the ladder, with various others such as MScep, Whimsicott, Smeargle, Amoongus, Breloom etc.
I originally wanted to say something else but now I’ve forgotten it, I’ll post it back if I ever remember.
Also a side note, Breloom hits HARD, even without the aid of SD/Spore.
I'm still unconvinced that you need a "I beat all sleep mons" pokemon, this post said pretty much a whole lot of nothing. Yes, Lax can change belly drum for some unfathomable reason, but your counters will still tend to work (still gets ohkoed by fighting types etc.) and none of the others can reasonably change movesets. I realize that it's an actual play style, everything is a playstyle in 1v1... Yes, breloom hits hard, it has base 130 attack. Not sure what this is supposed to mean.
I'm still unconvinced that you need a "I beat all sleep mons" pokemon, this post said pretty much a whole lot of nothing. Yes, Lax can change belly drum for some unfathomable reason, but your counters will still tend to work (still gets ohkoed by fighting types etc.) and none of the others can reasonably change movesets. I realize that it's an actual play style, everything is a playstyle in 1v1... Yes, breloom hits hard, it has base 130 attack. Not sure what this is supposed to mean.
