And how would you beat balloon...I made this post because I wanted to post something that was different and odd. Is there better options of beating stuff. Yes, thats called meta...I like team building and thats what I made :)
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Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter The Immortal
- Start date
- Status
Yhwach
Banned deucer.
But it's awful and you could use something else non meta which is less awful
Edit: you've probably never even used that set lol, or if you have maybe 1 game
Edit2: you beat balloon by just clicking dark pulse since it can't OHKO u lol
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Welcome to 1v1, where people use niche sets to beat one thing over another to beat whatever you want. (s/o spikes ninja)
A lot of people use niches to just mess around, but it's also a fun way to go far into single elim tournaments. It is pretty easy to sacrifice for a slot, because after all you have 2 more, so let everyone run what they want. It's not a criticism to anyone, just a minute PSA. Who knows, maybe you'll lose to the AV gren?
Hey Guys,
Let's talk about Mimikyu.
(Credit to user Asrikins on Tumblr for art)
Now that two of Mimikyu's biggest potential counters, that being Jirachi and Kyurem-Black, are out of the picture, Mimikyu has been allowed to run free in the current 1v1 metagame. The most damning set that Mimikyu possesses, in the most literal sense, is that of it's Cursekyu set, a wonderful little thing that combines the balance of perish song with the hopelessness of charmstallers/flinchers:
Evil (Mimikyu) @ Ghostium Z/Leftovers
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Curse
- Shadow Sneak/Thunder Wave/Charm/Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
- Substitute
This set is a guaranteed win against opponents who have less than 96 Speed, no taunt, or no recovery. Even with speed control/priority slower mons, who can hit mimikyu with a rock tomb, bulldoze, or flame charge, Mimikyu has the option to either charm the opponent turn 1 to lessen any offensive damage done to mimikyu, or thunder wave and hope for parahax while it subs every turn, which will happen within 4 turns 70% of the time ((0.75)^4)=0.316 (chance of not getting paralyzed 4 turns in a row). After one full paralyze, they can just z curse and win the game. I personally just topped the ladder using a charmkyu set, which proved to be effective with dragon dancers/swords dancers/band users. This is only one side of the coin, however; Mimikyu's more offensive set adds to the reason why I think Mimikyu deserves to be suspected:
Slightly less evil (Mimikyu) @ Mimikium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance/Bulk Up
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Claw/Curse/Charm
In a vacuum, this is a generally straightforward set, set up and try to OHKO with Let's Snuggle Forever. The problem comes in when a player is forced to determine which set is which. Mimikyu and it's sets are designed to be have multiple completely 50/50 decisions for almost every Pokemon that should be able to beat it. Should you sub, expecting the z move or the swords dance, or will the player have curse instead, or will they conserve their z with a regular attack, breaking the sub anyway? Should you sub again, if they are z, or should you try to break its disguise, because they'll just use a regular attack again? If it's cursekyu, should you prepare for thunder wave, charm, shadow sneak, or will o wisp? Once you sub in the face of a cursekyu, the game is basically over. If they curse you, and you attack, should you use your z move immediately or trying to conserve your power, knowing they have the potential to heal to full at any time, or charm you, or halve your speed, or protect in the face of your z move? The long story short is that you cannot determine how to properly play against any given Mimikyu when you first encounter it. With every other Pokemon, you have a general sense of what must be done to beat a certain Pokemon, and, if you know the meta well enough, you can prepare for every viable and popular option a player can throw against you. Mimikyu's most effective and popular sets have about a 60/40 split between offensive mimi and cursekyu, which leads to the necessity of a hard read/multiple hard reads, if you aren't suitably prepared, to have a chance at victory, and if you don't read correctly, you more than likely lose, right then and there.
This, by itself, wouldn't be worthy of a suspect. I just wanna make that clear. I can think of many Pokemon (Aggron, Celesteela, Mew, Deoxys Speed) that have radically different and equally viable sets that alternate between stall and offense. However, once you figure out what set they are, you can adequately prepare for the Pokemon with your own answer. However, in Mimikyu's case, the Disguise Ability is what separates it from the pack. The fact that you need to break its disguise in order to win (Unless your name is Excadrill or Gyarados), gives Mimikyu the time it needs to set up curse, set up swords dance, launch a z move, etc etc. Other stall mons have to worry about the power of the opponent that they are facing while they attempt to set up, but not Mimikyu; it can ruin it's opponent's ability to win before it's even gotten to half health. Eliminating the meaning of Speed and Power for one turn is absolutely insane in a 1v1 meta, and absolutely insane for a Pokemon designed to either cursestall or attack with a Z-Move. It is better than Sturdy. Can we also talk about how there's only one viable mold breaker Pokemon left, besides taunt Gyarados, that can reliably beat Mimikyu, that being Excadrill? Non-taunt Gyarados gets bopped by twave or charm Mimikyu. And with taunt only at 15% usage (20% in 1630), it's not an incredibly powerful deterrent; 15% is the chance to miss Will-o-Wisp, I'd still run that on many Pokemon. Essentially, Disguise eliminates many possible counters that would otherwise overpower Mimikyu before it has a chance to set up, which is a luxury every other stall+offensive mons does not have.
Additionally, just because one specific strategy beats a broken strategy doesn't mean that broken strategy is suddenly balanced. Perish Song, an undeniably unhealthy move in 1v1, was completely countered by taunt, but was banned because it was impossible to predict whether your opponent would use perish song or an offensive moveset, just based on what the Pokemon was, and preparations to fight one set would leave you completely wide open for the other (gee, doesn't that sound familiar).
In summary, Mimikyu should be suspected due to the combination of it's first-round unpredictable nature, the potential need to hard-read multiple 50/50s in order to beat any given Mimikyu set, and, most of all, because of the free Substitute it gets in the form of Disguise, which allows Mimikyu to do anything it pleases turn 1, for the most part, which has only been magnified due to the loss of two Mimikyu answers, Kyurem-Black and Jirachi
Also, Council, I feel like this would be the perfect opportunity to see if we, the players, truly know how to handle our own metagame. Let us have a proper suspect test once more, and only interfere if the results are as indecisive as they were in the past. I have a feeling players will take this situation more seriously after all the drama that has happened.
Share your thoughts, why dontcha. I only used Mimikyu for a day, so this post comes from my experience using it and my experience fighting it. Respond if you think I'm crazy, I am writing this at 3 am.
Let's talk about Mimikyu.
(Credit to user Asrikins on Tumblr for art)
Evil (Mimikyu) @ Ghostium Z/Leftovers
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Curse
- Shadow Sneak/Thunder Wave/Charm/Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
- Substitute
This set is a guaranteed win against opponents who have less than 96 Speed, no taunt, or no recovery. Even with speed control/priority slower mons, who can hit mimikyu with a rock tomb, bulldoze, or flame charge, Mimikyu has the option to either charm the opponent turn 1 to lessen any offensive damage done to mimikyu, or thunder wave and hope for parahax while it subs every turn, which will happen within 4 turns 70% of the time ((0.75)^4)=0.316 (chance of not getting paralyzed 4 turns in a row). After one full paralyze, they can just z curse and win the game. I personally just topped the ladder using a charmkyu set, which proved to be effective with dragon dancers/swords dancers/band users. This is only one side of the coin, however; Mimikyu's more offensive set adds to the reason why I think Mimikyu deserves to be suspected:
Slightly less evil (Mimikyu) @ Mimikium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance/Bulk Up
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Claw/Curse/Charm
In a vacuum, this is a generally straightforward set, set up and try to OHKO with Let's Snuggle Forever. The problem comes in when a player is forced to determine which set is which. Mimikyu and it's sets are designed to be have multiple completely 50/50 decisions for almost every Pokemon that should be able to beat it. Should you sub, expecting the z move or the swords dance, or will the player have curse instead, or will they conserve their z with a regular attack, breaking the sub anyway? Should you sub again, if they are z, or should you try to break its disguise, because they'll just use a regular attack again? If it's cursekyu, should you prepare for thunder wave, charm, shadow sneak, or will o wisp? Once you sub in the face of a cursekyu, the game is basically over. If they curse you, and you attack, should you use your z move immediately or trying to conserve your power, knowing they have the potential to heal to full at any time, or charm you, or halve your speed, or protect in the face of your z move? The long story short is that you cannot determine how to properly play against any given Mimikyu when you first encounter it. With every other Pokemon, you have a general sense of what must be done to beat a certain Pokemon, and, if you know the meta well enough, you can prepare for every viable and popular option a player can throw against you. Mimikyu's most effective and popular sets have about a 60/40 split between offensive mimi and cursekyu, which leads to the necessity of a hard read/multiple hard reads, if you aren't suitably prepared, to have a chance at victory, and if you don't read correctly, you more than likely lose, right then and there.
This, by itself, wouldn't be worthy of a suspect. I just wanna make that clear. I can think of many Pokemon (Aggron, Celesteela, Mew, Deoxys Speed) that have radically different and equally viable sets that alternate between stall and offense. However, once you figure out what set they are, you can adequately prepare for the Pokemon with your own answer. However, in Mimikyu's case, the Disguise Ability is what separates it from the pack. The fact that you need to break its disguise in order to win (Unless your name is Excadrill or Gyarados), gives Mimikyu the time it needs to set up curse, set up swords dance, launch a z move, etc etc. Other stall mons have to worry about the power of the opponent that they are facing while they attempt to set up, but not Mimikyu; it can ruin it's opponent's ability to win before it's even gotten to half health. Eliminating the meaning of Speed and Power for one turn is absolutely insane in a 1v1 meta, and absolutely insane for a Pokemon designed to either cursestall or attack with a Z-Move. It is better than Sturdy. Can we also talk about how there's only one viable mold breaker Pokemon left, besides taunt Gyarados, that can reliably beat Mimikyu, that being Excadrill? Non-taunt Gyarados gets bopped by twave or charm Mimikyu. And with taunt only at 15% usage (20% in 1630), it's not an incredibly powerful deterrent; 15% is the chance to miss Will-o-Wisp, I'd still run that on many Pokemon. Essentially, Disguise eliminates many possible counters that would otherwise overpower Mimikyu before it has a chance to set up, which is a luxury every other stall+offensive mons does not have.
Additionally, just because one specific strategy beats a broken strategy doesn't mean that broken strategy is suddenly balanced. Perish Song, an undeniably unhealthy move in 1v1, was completely countered by taunt, but was banned because it was impossible to predict whether your opponent would use perish song or an offensive moveset, just based on what the Pokemon was, and preparations to fight one set would leave you completely wide open for the other (gee, doesn't that sound familiar).
In summary, Mimikyu should be suspected due to the combination of it's first-round unpredictable nature, the potential need to hard-read multiple 50/50s in order to beat any given Mimikyu set, and, most of all, because of the free Substitute it gets in the form of Disguise, which allows Mimikyu to do anything it pleases turn 1, for the most part, which has only been magnified due to the loss of two Mimikyu answers, Kyurem-Black and Jirachi
Also, Council, I feel like this would be the perfect opportunity to see if we, the players, truly know how to handle our own metagame. Let us have a proper suspect test once more, and only interfere if the results are as indecisive as they were in the past. I have a feeling players will take this situation more seriously after all the drama that has happened.
Share your thoughts, why dontcha. I only used Mimikyu for a day, so this post comes from my experience using it and my experience fighting it. Respond if you think I'm crazy, I am writing this at 3 am.
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I had posted a bit about Mimikyu back here but back then it was the Kyurem-B meta though some of it still applies
I completely agree with what The Dark Alakazam said (It's like he put in everything I would've ever wanted to about Mimikyu)
Now I'm aware that Mimikyu can't run all of its sets at the same time but you really need to have a dedicated answer for Mimikyu while teambuidling like Excadrill and Necrozma since it is tough to say which Mimikyu set is the opponent running from the Team Preview.
So with Disguise, Curse, Thunder Wave, Substitute, Charm/WoW, Z-Attacking sets, good typing Mimikyu has indeed got beyond control. The suspect philosophy is old so I don't know if those points can be quoted but I think the new one would also include Mimikyu as a target.
Supporting for pushing for a suspect test for Mimikyu.
And here's a powerful bulky-offensive Victini set
Flame Charge lets you go past Substitute Pokemon like Mega Lucario, SubFlail Mega Lopunny and Mega Pinsir and also outspeed Magnezone even if it uses Electroweb.
144 HP allow it to take a Fake Out + Giga Impact combination from Mega Lopunny and 148 SpD with the HP invest for Porygon-Z Hyper Beam, Z-Zap Cannon from Magnezone and other hits. 216+ Atk Band can mostly KO most Primarina and Tapu Fini.
So focusing on the point again that you have to be both faster than Mimikyu and bulky enough to survive a Z attack to grab a guaranteed victory against Mimikyu. Now there's an addition to this which is Thunder Wave because of which you can still lose to Mimikyu despite being faster than it and having the ability to OHKO it. As evident from this replay.
I completely agree with what The Dark Alakazam said (It's like he put in everything I would've ever wanted to about Mimikyu)
Now I'm aware that Mimikyu can't run all of its sets at the same time but you really need to have a dedicated answer for Mimikyu while teambuidling like Excadrill and Necrozma since it is tough to say which Mimikyu set is the opponent running from the Team Preview.
So with Disguise, Curse, Thunder Wave, Substitute, Charm/WoW, Z-Attacking sets, good typing Mimikyu has indeed got beyond control. The suspect philosophy is old so I don't know if those points can be quoted but I think the new one would also include Mimikyu as a target.
Supporting for pushing for a suspect test for Mimikyu.
And here's a powerful bulky-offensive Victini set
Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 144 HP / 216 Atk / 148 SpD
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Zen Headbutt
- Bolt Strike
- Flame Charge
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 144 HP / 216 Atk / 148 SpD
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Zen Headbutt
- Bolt Strike
- Flame Charge
Flame Charge lets you go past Substitute Pokemon like Mega Lucario, SubFlail Mega Lopunny and Mega Pinsir and also outspeed Magnezone even if it uses Electroweb.
144 HP allow it to take a Fake Out + Giga Impact combination from Mega Lopunny and 148 SpD with the HP invest for Porygon-Z Hyper Beam, Z-Zap Cannon from Magnezone and other hits. 216+ Atk Band can mostly KO most Primarina and Tapu Fini.
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 144 HP / 148 SpD Victini: 318-376 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Porygon-Z: 387-456 (103.4 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 144 HP / 148 SpD Victini: 271-319 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 452-534 (157.4 - 186%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Victini: 321-378 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 115-136 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Giga Impact vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Victini: 336-396 (89.1 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Pinsir-Mega: 182-216 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 144 HP / 148 SpD Victini: 295-348 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 194-230 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Lele: 372-438 (108.1 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Meloetta: 486-573 (120.5 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Necrozma: 388-457 (98.7 - 116.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Primarina: 362-426 (99.4 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 332-392 (96.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
If you predict the Megagross set to be the fast offensive set, use Flame Charge to 2HKO it while avoiding the defense drop suffered by V-create Ginto MegaGross' Substitute whereas go for V-create if you predict it to be the bulky set in order to OHKO it. If you aren't able to predict the MegaGross set from the Team Preview, it is better to use V-create as the bulky set is the more used one though this month it's the fast one because of Kyub's departure so it might fluctuate for now.
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metagross-Mega: 422-500 (115.9 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 152-182 (50.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Giga Impact vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Victini: 314-370 (83.2 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 348-412 (134.3 - 159%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mew: 391-462 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Can also take the rarely used generic Max SpA Max Spe Tapu Koko
252 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 144 HP / 148 SpD Victini in Electric Terrain: 316-373 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 447-526 (159 - 187.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Porygon-Z: 387-456 (103.4 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 144 HP / 148 SpD Victini: 271-319 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 452-534 (157.4 - 186%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Victini: 321-378 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 115-136 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Giga Impact vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Victini: 336-396 (89.1 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Pinsir-Mega: 182-216 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 144 HP / 148 SpD Victini: 295-348 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 194-230 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Lele: 372-438 (108.1 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Meloetta: 486-573 (120.5 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Necrozma: 388-457 (98.7 - 116.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Primarina: 362-426 (99.4 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 332-392 (96.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
If you predict the Megagross set to be the fast offensive set, use Flame Charge to 2HKO it while avoiding the defense drop suffered by V-create Ginto MegaGross' Substitute whereas go for V-create if you predict it to be the bulky set in order to OHKO it. If you aren't able to predict the MegaGross set from the Team Preview, it is better to use V-create as the bulky set is the more used one though this month it's the fast one because of Kyub's departure so it might fluctuate for now.
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metagross-Mega: 422-500 (115.9 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 152-182 (50.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Giga Impact vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Victini: 314-370 (83.2 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 348-412 (134.3 - 159%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mew: 391-462 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Can also take the rarely used generic Max SpA Max Spe Tapu Koko
252 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 144 HP / 148 SpD Victini in Electric Terrain: 316-373 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 447-526 (159 - 187.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not gonna lie, I didnt read this. saw victini and was like from zard8888...must be good, and i liked it...I had posted a bit about Mimikyu back here but back then it was the Kyurem-B meta though some of it still applies
So focusing on the point again that you have to be both faster than Mimikyu and bulky enough to survive a Z attack to grab a guaranteed victory against Mimikyu. Now there's an addition to this which is Thunder Wave because of which you can still lose to Mimikyu despite being faster than it and having the ability to OHKO it. As evident from this replay.
I completely agree with what The Dark Alakazam said (It's like he put in everything I would've ever wanted to about Mimikyu)
Now I'm aware that Mimikyu can't run all of its sets at the same time but you really need to have a dedicated answer for Mimikyu while teambuidling like Excadrill and Necrozma since it is tough to say which Mimikyu set is the opponent running from the Team Preview.
So with Disguise, Curse, Thunder Wave, Substitute, Charm/WoW, Z-Attacking sets, good typing Mimikyu has indeed got beyond control. The suspect philosophy is old so I don't know if those points can be quoted but I think the new one would also include Mimikyu as a target.
Supporting for pushing for a suspect test for Mimikyu.
And here's a powerful bulky-offensive Victini set
Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 144 HP / 216 Atk / 148 SpD
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Zen Headbutt
- Bolt Strike
- Flame Charge
Flame Charge lets you go past Substitute Pokemon like Mega Lucario, SubFlail Mega Lopunny and Mega Pinsir and also outspeed Magnezone even if it uses Electroweb.
144 HP allow it to take a Fake Out + Giga Impact combination from Mega Lopunny and 148 SpD with the HP invest for Porygon-Z Hyper Beam, Z-Zap Cannon from Magnezone and other hits. 216+ Atk Band can mostly KO most Primarina and Tapu Fini.
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 144 HP / 148 SpD Victini: 318-376 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Porygon-Z: 387-456 (103.4 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 144 HP / 148 SpD Victini: 271-319 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 452-534 (157.4 - 186%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Victini: 321-378 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 115-136 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Giga Impact vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Victini: 336-396 (89.1 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Pinsir-Mega: 182-216 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 144 HP / 148 SpD Victini: 295-348 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 194-230 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Lele: 372-438 (108.1 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Meloetta: 486-573 (120.5 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Necrozma: 388-457 (98.7 - 116.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Primarina: 362-426 (99.4 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 332-392 (96.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
If you predict the Megagross set to be the fast offensive set, use Flame Charge to 2HKO it while avoiding the defense drop suffered by V-create Ginto MegaGross' Substitute whereas go for V-create if you predict it to be the bulky set in order to OHKO it. If you aren't able to predict the MegaGross set from the Team Preview, it is better to use V-create as the bulky set is the more used one though this month it's the fast one because of Kyub's departure so it might fluctuate for now.
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metagross-Mega: 422-500 (115.9 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 152-182 (50.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Giga Impact vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Victini: 314-370 (83.2 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 348-412 (134.3 - 159%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mew: 391-462 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Can also take the rarely used generic Max SpA Max Spe Tapu Koko
252 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 144 HP / 148 SpD Victini in Electric Terrain: 316-373 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 447-526 (159 - 187.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
pqs
Banned deucer.
the same effect is given by just liking a post
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Huge new resource: Updated sets compendium!
http://pokepast.es/dcbf2ed2e0ebc8bc
Unlike the old version, this one is much more exclusive. That is, every set in there is certified MaceMaster Gold™. I've included the entire VR/sets VR, and then some. My hope with this resource, as compared to the old one, is that A), it prevents newer players from picking a bad set, and that B), it gives more experienced players a complete spectrum of sets. Enjoy!
http://pokepast.es/dcbf2ed2e0ebc8bc
Unlike the old version, this one is much more exclusive. That is, every set in there is certified MaceMaster Gold™. I've included the entire VR/sets VR, and then some. My hope with this resource, as compared to the old one, is that A), it prevents newer players from picking a bad set, and that B), it gives more experienced players a complete spectrum of sets. Enjoy!
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What I think would be helpful to both me and other players getting into 1v1 is just a quick description of the EVs, what it outspeeds and what it survives. Then, when I
I actually have something a lot like that in the works rn ;) I might have it ready in 4 days, I might have it ready in a month, but I'll do it! :] Here's a preview of what I'm planning on doing for it so that I can potentially receive some feedback before I get too much done. Instead of plotting out the nitty-gritty of the EVs though, I'll be giving an overview of each set's niche relative to each other, why to use it, why not to use it, and what each coverage option does.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 240 HP / 80 Atk / 44 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Ice Fang
Ice Fang+Taunt beats Zygarde and Landorus-T in only two moveslots. Earthquake+Taunt 50/50s Magearna at worst. EVs for Magearna and Magnezone. Rendered weak unless it can hit for super-effective due to no STAB or Outrage.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch / Bounce / Earthquake / Iron Head / Taunt
- Outrage / Bounce / Earthquake / Iron Head / Taunt
Max Speed Jolly outpaces standard anti-Gyarados Mega Metagross pre-mega, 2HKOs with Crunch. Also outspeeds opponents like Naganadel, Greninja and Mega Lopunny after a Dragon Dance. Outrage is good against Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard X and Dragonite. Bounce hits Mega Heracross, Mega Lopunny, Sawk, Buzzwole. Earthquake OHKOs Magnezone. Iron Head beats Mimikyu. Taunt beats Jumpluff, Landorus-T, Chansey. Taunt+Outrage beats Zygarde. Taunt+Crunch 50/50s stall Mew and Mega Slowbro. Not very bulky.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 136 HP / 228 Def / 144 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Taunt / Crunch / Outrage / Bounce
- Waterfall / Taunt / Crunch / Outrage / Bounce
Given bulk and speed+Stone Edge beats Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard Y. Earthquake OHKOs Magnezone. Waterfall and Crunch are good STAB moves. Taunt+Waterfall beats Landorus-T. Taunt+Crunch 50/50s stall Mew and Mega Slowbro. Taunt+Outrage beats Zygarde. Outrage is good against Mega Gyarados. Bounce hits Mega Heracross, Mega Lopunny, Sawk, Buzzwole. Not very strong due to lack of Attack investment.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 188 SpD / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Taunt
- Substitute
Given moves and EVs beat Mega Slowbro by using Substitute to block Scald burns and boosting to +6 with Dragon Dance. If it hasn't Mega Evolved, 2HKO with Crunch. If it has, Taunt it. Use this set only if you need to beat Mega Slowbro and/or the utility that comes with Substitute. Lacks flexibility.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 248 HP / 12 Atk / 248 Def
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Ice Fang
- Payback
Curse+Rest and the given EVs wall Mega Metagross. Payback, after lowering your speed with Curse, is the strongest attack. Ice Fang beats Zygarde and Landorus-T. Lacks flexibility.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 124 HP / 232 Def / 152 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
Thunderbolt with the given EVs beat Mega Gyarados. Ice Beam beats Landorus-T, Zygarde, Garchomp, Dragonite. Surf is a reliable STAB, but Hydro Pump does considerably more damage. Fire Blast beats Genesect, Ferrothorn, Mega Heracross, Mega Scizor, Kartana, Durant. Is extremely weak.
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 240 HP / 80 Atk / 44 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Ice Fang
Ice Fang+Taunt beats Zygarde and Landorus-T in only two moveslots. Earthquake+Taunt 50/50s Magearna at worst. EVs for Magearna and Magnezone. Rendered weak unless it can hit for super-effective due to no STAB or Outrage.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch / Bounce / Earthquake / Iron Head / Taunt
- Outrage / Bounce / Earthquake / Iron Head / Taunt
Max Speed Jolly outpaces standard anti-Gyarados Mega Metagross pre-mega, 2HKOs with Crunch. Also outspeeds opponents like Naganadel, Greninja and Mega Lopunny after a Dragon Dance. Outrage is good against Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard X and Dragonite. Bounce hits Mega Heracross, Mega Lopunny, Sawk, Buzzwole. Earthquake OHKOs Magnezone. Iron Head beats Mimikyu. Taunt beats Jumpluff, Landorus-T, Chansey. Taunt+Outrage beats Zygarde. Taunt+Crunch 50/50s stall Mew and Mega Slowbro. Not very bulky.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 136 HP / 228 Def / 144 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Taunt / Crunch / Outrage / Bounce
- Waterfall / Taunt / Crunch / Outrage / Bounce
Given bulk and speed+Stone Edge beats Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard Y. Earthquake OHKOs Magnezone. Waterfall and Crunch are good STAB moves. Taunt+Waterfall beats Landorus-T. Taunt+Crunch 50/50s stall Mew and Mega Slowbro. Taunt+Outrage beats Zygarde. Outrage is good against Mega Gyarados. Bounce hits Mega Heracross, Mega Lopunny, Sawk, Buzzwole. Not very strong due to lack of Attack investment.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 188 SpD / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Taunt
- Substitute
Given moves and EVs beat Mega Slowbro by using Substitute to block Scald burns and boosting to +6 with Dragon Dance. If it hasn't Mega Evolved, 2HKO with Crunch. If it has, Taunt it. Use this set only if you need to beat Mega Slowbro and/or the utility that comes with Substitute. Lacks flexibility.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 248 HP / 12 Atk / 248 Def
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Ice Fang
- Payback
Curse+Rest and the given EVs wall Mega Metagross. Payback, after lowering your speed with Curse, is the strongest attack. Ice Fang beats Zygarde and Landorus-T. Lacks flexibility.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 124 HP / 232 Def / 152 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
Thunderbolt with the given EVs beat Mega Gyarados. Ice Beam beats Landorus-T, Zygarde, Garchomp, Dragonite. Surf is a reliable STAB, but Hydro Pump does considerably more damage. Fire Blast beats Genesect, Ferrothorn, Mega Heracross, Mega Scizor, Kartana, Durant. Is extremely weak.
ayedan
5 am in Toronto
Hey guys, ur favorite Aidan here to talk about...
Z-MOVES
Z- moves were brought upon us in Sun and Moon as a more powerful, enhanced attack that was used while holding a z crystal of that type of move you were using (ex. Rockium for Stone Edge respectively) With Z- Moves becoming popular amongst mons that needed a little more firepower or mons that just needed a nuke to kill something. Lately, Z-Moves have been a hot topic in the 1v1 community and whether they are too overpowered for the metagame or not. There are arguments for both sides on if Z-Moves should be suspected and banned or just kept the way they are. I'm going to be discussing both sides on the matter and my personal opinion on Z-Moves.
Why Z- Moves should be banned
Z- Moves put alot of 1v1 games into 1 or 2 turn long games (yes, i know oras has short games too but I'm speaking of the after effects of z moves) While yes, 1v1 is meant for short and quick games often for the impatient players that want short and ez games, z moves put a different perspective on the short games. When i see certain mons like Koko or Kommo-o, i know they are running Z-Moves and i have to customize evs to even have a chance to live a hit from a Tapu Koko's Gigavolt Havoc or a Kommo-o's Clangorous SoulBlaze and that really makes teambuildng more restricting and more difficult bcz of Z-Moves. There are also Z-Moves that are for defensive mons like Mimikyu utilizing Z-Charm, which rises ur defense by 1 stage and lowers ur opponents attack by 2 stages and Deo-S with Z-Detect which rises ur evasion by 1 stage, therefore, kinda breaking the evasion clause. Sometimes, when I'm building with Z-Moves, I have to make sure I have the most powerful, usable move at my dispense to unleash the most attack as I can which also makes some mons outclassed by others. When I have to prepare for Z-Moves, I have to make sure I cover this ev spread and what if Kommo-o lives this and gets the +1 in every stat except HP? Z-Moves can be very constricting to build around and against for the fact they are so powerful. Also, Z-Moves make some mons, before not really viable, much more viable like Tapu Koko and Kommo-o and Gren, etc. This is my take on why Z-Moves should be suspected and possibly banned.
Why Z-Moves shouldnt be banned/suspected
Edit: None, why hasn't Z-Moves been suspected or banned already?
My thoughts on Z-Moves
I personally think the council should do Room tours with rules like No Z-moves to see how people adapt and build teams. This will also help us get an idea on whether to suspect Z-moves or not. I would like to see how the meta develops without Z-Moves and how some mons will be with no Z-Moves available. I would like to see what you guys have to say on the subject and how a no Z-Moves meta would look.
Anyways Peace Guys (Love ya),
lucarioaidan
Z-MOVES
Z- moves were brought upon us in Sun and Moon as a more powerful, enhanced attack that was used while holding a z crystal of that type of move you were using (ex. Rockium for Stone Edge respectively) With Z- Moves becoming popular amongst mons that needed a little more firepower or mons that just needed a nuke to kill something. Lately, Z-Moves have been a hot topic in the 1v1 community and whether they are too overpowered for the metagame or not. There are arguments for both sides on if Z-Moves should be suspected and banned or just kept the way they are. I'm going to be discussing both sides on the matter and my personal opinion on Z-Moves.
Why Z- Moves should be banned
Z- Moves put alot of 1v1 games into 1 or 2 turn long games (yes, i know oras has short games too but I'm speaking of the after effects of z moves) While yes, 1v1 is meant for short and quick games often for the impatient players that want short and ez games, z moves put a different perspective on the short games. When i see certain mons like Koko or Kommo-o, i know they are running Z-Moves and i have to customize evs to even have a chance to live a hit from a Tapu Koko's Gigavolt Havoc or a Kommo-o's Clangorous SoulBlaze and that really makes teambuildng more restricting and more difficult bcz of Z-Moves. There are also Z-Moves that are for defensive mons like Mimikyu utilizing Z-Charm, which rises ur defense by 1 stage and lowers ur opponents attack by 2 stages and Deo-S with Z-Detect which rises ur evasion by 1 stage, therefore, kinda breaking the evasion clause. Sometimes, when I'm building with Z-Moves, I have to make sure I have the most powerful, usable move at my dispense to unleash the most attack as I can which also makes some mons outclassed by others. When I have to prepare for Z-Moves, I have to make sure I cover this ev spread and what if Kommo-o lives this and gets the +1 in every stat except HP? Z-Moves can be very constricting to build around and against for the fact they are so powerful. Also, Z-Moves make some mons, before not really viable, much more viable like Tapu Koko and Kommo-o and Gren, etc. This is my take on why Z-Moves should be suspected and possibly banned.
Why Z-Moves shouldnt be banned/suspected
Edit: None, why hasn't Z-Moves been suspected or banned already?
My thoughts on Z-Moves
I personally think the council should do Room tours with rules like No Z-moves to see how people adapt and build teams. This will also help us get an idea on whether to suspect Z-moves or not. I would like to see how the meta develops without Z-Moves and how some mons will be with no Z-Moves available. I would like to see what you guys have to say on the subject and how a no Z-Moves meta would look.
Anyways Peace Guys (Love ya),
lucarioaidan
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Tol
Retirement house
uhHey guys, ur favorite Aidan here to talk about...
Z-MOVES
Z- moves were brought upon us in Sun and Moon as a more powerful, enhanced attack that was used while holding a z crystal of that type of move you were using (ex. Rockium for Stone Edge respectively) With Z- Moves becoming popular amongst mons that needed a little more firepower or mons that just needed a nuke to kill something. Lately, Z-Moves have been a hot topic in the 1v1 community and whether they are too overpowered for the metagame or not. There are arguments for both sides on if Z-Moves should be suspected and banned or just kept the way they are. I'm going to be discussing both sides on the matter and my personal opinion on Z-Moves.
Why Z- Moves should be banned
Z- Moves put alot of 1v1 games into 1 or 2 turn long games (yes, i know oras has short games too but I'm speaking of the after effects of z moves) While yes, 1v1 is meant for short and quick games often for the impatient players that want short and ez games, z moves put a different perspective on the short games. When i see certain mons like Koko or Kommo-o, i know they are running Z-Moves and i have to customize evs to even have a chance to live a hit from a Tapu Koko's Gigavolt Havoc or a Kommo-o's Clangorous SoulBlaze and that really makes teambuildng more restricting and more difficult bcz of Z-Moves. There are also Z-Moves that are for defensive mons like Mimikyu utilizing Z-Charm, which rises ur defense by 1 stage and lowers ur opponents attack by 2 stages and Deo-S with Z-Detect which rises ur evasion by 1 stage, therefore, kinda breaking the evasion clause. Sometimes, when I'm building with Z-Moves, I have to make sure I have the most powerful, usable move at my dispense to unleash the most attack as I can which also makes some mons outclassed by others. When I have to prepare for Z-Moves, I have to make sure I cover this ev spread and what if Kommo-o lives this and gets the +1 in every stat except HP? Z-Moves can be very constricting to build around and against for the fact they are so powerful. Also, Z-Moves make some mons, before not really viable, much more viable like Tapu Koko and Kommo-o and Gren, etc. This is my take on why Z-Moves should be suspected and possibly banned.
Why Z-Moves shouldnt be banned/suspected
Edit: None, why hasn't Z-Moves been suspected or banned already?
My thoughts on Z-Moves
I personally think the council should do Room tours with rules like No Z-moves to see how people adapt and build teams. This will also help us get an idea on whether to suspect Z-moves or not. I would like to see how the meta develops without Z-Moves and how some mons will be with no Z-Moves available. I would like to see what you guys have to say on the subject and how a no Z-Moves meta would look.
Anyways Peace Guys (Love ya),
lucarioaidan
fam
"i have to customize evs to even have a chance to live a hit from a Tapu Koko's Gigavolt Havoc or a Kommo-o's Clangorous SoulBlaze and that really makes teambuildng more restricting and more difficult bcz of Z-Moves."
you're gonna be specializing your EVs anyway, this is 1v1.
" I have to make sure I have the most powerful, usable move at my dispense to unleash the most attack as I can which also makes some mons outclassed by others. "
you act as though this is new to gen7, using the best move and mons has been a Pokemon tradition since RBY
"Z-Moves can be very constricting to build around and against for the fact they are so powerful. "
so are Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizards, Scarf pory-Z, etc.
"Also, Z-Moves make some mons, before not really viable, much more viable like Tapu Koko and Kommo-o and Gren, etc."
koko wasn't viable before z-moves because it didn't exist
same with kommo-o
greninja was really good in Gen6, not sure where you're coming from
"When I have to prepare for Z-Moves, I have to make sure I cover this ev spread "
you have to do this with every mon that doesn't carry Z-moves too
"Z- Moves put alot of 1v1 games into 1 or 2 turn long games"
you ever wonder why you never hear anyone say "well gee, I remember back in the old days of ORAS when we had those 50-turn 1v1 matches"?
that's because 1v1 has always been like this
"
Why Z-Moves shouldnt be banned/suspected
Edit: None, why hasn't Z-Moves been suspected or banned already?"
won't even start on that
"I'm going to be discussing both sides on the matter and my personal opinion on Z-Moves."
you kinda just skipped to the opinion part
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ayedan
5 am in Toronto
Lol ur the one who suggested me to just say why hasnt z moves been suspected or banned. Also, when i said that weren't good before Z-moves, i meant to say they wouldn't be viable without Z-Moves. Also, I never did say a mon cant be powerful without a z move. There is a reason m gyara and zards are ranked so high and are very good.
pazza
Banned deucer.
ok hi hows ur day
Zmoves
op item that everyone bitches about to ban them
Z- moves were brought upon us in Sun and Moon as a more powerful, enhanced attack that was used while holding a z crystal of that type of move you were using (ex. Rockium for Stone Edge respectively)
Don't ban them
In my opinion don't ban zmoves. They help a lot of mons become versatile and make them viable.They also allow some mons to get a niche to beat other mons (icium z Rhyperior vs zygod.) What im really trying to say is that it limits creativity in 1v1 if u ban them."bUt zMOveS rEsCRIct tEambUilDINg" Yea and gyara,pz,mim,jumpluff,whims,zygod,strudies,sleep and many more restrict team building too! What are we gonna do,ban them all?!
[17:57:04] lucarioaidan: Pazzaa
[17:57:13] lucarioaidan: plz dont overshadow mine <
haha thats why I posted this!
Yes the point of 1v1 is to be short, games shouldn't be more then 4 rounds unless stall/sleep/sub.
You don't see kommo in 1v1 and ofc u have to be ready for koko just like your ready for gyara and you ev for them both.
Mimikyu is a different story tbh. With the z-detect set it really isn't a set and gets bodied by any mon that can get a hit off it or is immune to toxic.
Zmoves do constrict team building but in 1v1 what mon doesn't?
Koko wasn't in gen 6 neither was kommo. gren was good in gen 6 w/o zmoves. Koko can be viable in 1v1 without zmoves not as good with zmoves.Also Kommo isn't really good with or without zmoves
Zmoves
Z- moves were brought upon us in Sun and Moon as a more powerful, enhanced attack that was used while holding a z crystal of that type of move you were using (ex. Rockium for Stone Edge respectively)
Don't ban them
In my opinion don't ban zmoves. They help a lot of mons become versatile and make them viable.They also allow some mons to get a niche to beat other mons (icium z Rhyperior vs zygod.) What im really trying to say is that it limits creativity in 1v1 if u ban them."bUt zMOveS rEsCRIct tEambUilDINg" Yea and gyara,pz,mim,jumpluff,whims,zygod,strudies,sleep and many more restrict team building too! What are we gonna do,ban them all?!
[17:57:04] lucarioaidan: Pazzaa
[17:57:13] lucarioaidan: plz dont overshadow mine <
Yes the point of 1v1 is to be short, games shouldn't be more then 4 rounds unless stall/sleep/sub.
You don't see kommo in 1v1 and ofc u have to be ready for koko just like your ready for gyara and you ev for them both.
Mimikyu is a different story tbh. With the z-detect set it really isn't a set and gets bodied by any mon that can get a hit off it or is immune to toxic.
Zmoves do constrict team building but in 1v1 what mon doesn't?
Koko wasn't in gen 6 neither was kommo. gren was good in gen 6 w/o zmoves. Koko can be viable in 1v1 without zmoves not as good with zmoves.Also Kommo isn't really good with or without zmoves
,
Only thing I agree with you onI personally think the council should do Room tours with rules like No Z-moves to see how people adapt and build teams. This will also help us get an idea on whether to suspect Z-moves or not. I would like to see how the meta develops without Z-Moves and how some mons will be with no Z-Moves available. I would like to see what you guys have to say on the subject and how a no Z-Moves meta would look.
Anyways Peace Guys (Love ya),
lucarioaidan
Z moves let's go
Wall of text incoming, so TL;DR at the bottom
LucarioAidan, I share your stance, but your debate skills lack a certain...everything. Let's have a real position to defend from here, and acknowledge that Z-moves have some benefits.
Firstly, Z-moves were introduced as a boost - a nuke, a one-off blaze of glory that costs your item slot but can turn the tide in your favor. This is fine in a normal 6v6 game, where you have to weigh the benefits of giving up an item slot for a Z-stone versus another item that may work better as a long-term investment, but in the quick pace of 1v1 that boost is too strong for the amount of time in the game. Giving a mon a Z-stone costs very little when it could easily win the game by virtue of the Z-stone alone.
Tapu Koko, for example, is infamous for its use of Z-moves, but take that away and it would immediately drop from a top mon to B-rank or lower - it needs that stone to maintain its status in the meta. Z-stones are also very versatile: we think of them as orbital bombardments that boost already-strong moves, but they can benefit in more subtle and unpredictable ways. Giving Snorlax Normalium-Z means it can perform Breakneck Blitz, which, combined with Giga Impact, means it can blast a mon twice in a row, nuking a mon with 350BP in STAB attacks over just two turns before suffering any adverse effects. This same Snorlax can also run Z-Protect, resetting any negative stats, or even Z-Happy Hour for the memers, boosting every stat at once. Landorus often runs Flyinium-Z to take advantage of its only Flying STAB attack, but can easily run Groundium-Z to play a completely different kind of nuke against their opponent (and generally hit them hard where Flying moves don't). The benefits of Z-stones greatly outweigh the cost of running it over another item, and while a choice item user (possibly the strongest contender to Z-stones in terms of power boosting) has to decide what move they will commit to for the entire match, a Z-move user can Z-move any applicable move on any turn, then turn around and run a countermove right after, with no drawback besides the inability to run another 175+BP nuke or boost 3+ stat stages or whatever. This is fair and balanced when you have 5 other mons on your team and the ability to switch them out at will, but in 1v1 that's too strong.
A 1v1 player has to prepare for any potential Z-set that might be thrown at them plus whatever standard sets the mon might run, and the biggest problem is that it's impossible to tell which Z-set it is. It's normally absolutely fine that you have to figure out the item on the other mon - that's part of the game, and other items are generally balanced enough - but with a Z-stone there's just no way to figure it out in a battle and react appropriately. Will Landorus run Flyinium-Z or Groundium-Z? Can I counter Tapu Koko assuming it has Electrium-Z, or will I lose because it had Fairium-Z instead? Losing because of a shortage of data that is impossible to obtain during the course of a match isn't fun or competitive, it just sucks.
Z-stones, as a power amplifier, also boost viability in the meta, but it doesn't boost viability equally. For some mons, that means they're made much more viable than others thanks to Z-stones. Barbaracle is probably the oldest example - the only reason it showed up on the ladder is because Z-moves made it a viable counter to strong meta threats (KyuB and both zards, IIRC), and in cases like these, it's actually beneficial to diversity in the meta.
However, it's my opinion that if the only reason a mon is viable (ranked highly or even at all) is because of Z-stones, then it isn't really fair to say that it belongs in the same ranks as the rest of the meta, because without that stone it would be a crap mon that couldn't hold its own. Kommo-O is probably one of the best examples of this - Clangorous Soulblaze is basically Z-Draco Meteor plus Z-Happy Hour in one move, and Kommo-O is bad enough that it likely wouldn't be on the viability rankings without the frankly overpowered Kommonium-Z. As stated above, Tapu Koko gets most of its power from Z-stones, and would fall far without them. I think that it's fundamentally unfair for these mons and mons like them to be stronger on the basis of a single item (especially an item with as much power as a Z-Stone), and I think the game would feel more fair without Z-Stones. Jirachi was banned because it was a strong mon that managed to abuse a certain item, Choice Scarf, and without it the meta feels much better - I think banning Z-Stones, the simplest source of the problem, will create a similar re-infusion of fairness.
As for the arguments for keeping Z-Stones, we would maintain greater diversity in mons and movesets, but most of you can't say whether it's better to not have a Z-less meta because the data to support that literally doesn't exist - ever since their implementation Z-moves have been in 1v1, and with a whole generation added alongside the mechanic I think the meta changed too much at that time to determine if banning Z-Stones was objectively better or not. We have had Z-less tournaments, but I can count those on one hand, and it's completely unreasonable to observe a meta shift using a couple of tourneys as the dataset. Right now I would love to ban Z-Stones permanently, but I think the reasonable move is to suspect Z-Stones on the ladder for a few months and see what happens, then make a determination from there. A long-term experiment is in order, or else I fear the only thing that will shape the results of the suspect test is the memory of the Z-stone meta, without regard for the actual meta without Z-Stones.
TL;DR: Running Z-stones is way too strong given the cost, and should be banned - but a suspect test for Z-Stones should be held over several months to determine the best option.
Wall of text incoming, so TL;DR at the bottom
LucarioAidan, I share your stance, but your debate skills lack a certain...everything. Let's have a real position to defend from here, and acknowledge that Z-moves have some benefits.
Firstly, Z-moves were introduced as a boost - a nuke, a one-off blaze of glory that costs your item slot but can turn the tide in your favor. This is fine in a normal 6v6 game, where you have to weigh the benefits of giving up an item slot for a Z-stone versus another item that may work better as a long-term investment, but in the quick pace of 1v1 that boost is too strong for the amount of time in the game. Giving a mon a Z-stone costs very little when it could easily win the game by virtue of the Z-stone alone.
Tapu Koko, for example, is infamous for its use of Z-moves, but take that away and it would immediately drop from a top mon to B-rank or lower - it needs that stone to maintain its status in the meta. Z-stones are also very versatile: we think of them as orbital bombardments that boost already-strong moves, but they can benefit in more subtle and unpredictable ways. Giving Snorlax Normalium-Z means it can perform Breakneck Blitz, which, combined with Giga Impact, means it can blast a mon twice in a row, nuking a mon with 350BP in STAB attacks over just two turns before suffering any adverse effects. This same Snorlax can also run Z-Protect, resetting any negative stats, or even Z-Happy Hour for the memers, boosting every stat at once. Landorus often runs Flyinium-Z to take advantage of its only Flying STAB attack, but can easily run Groundium-Z to play a completely different kind of nuke against their opponent (and generally hit them hard where Flying moves don't). The benefits of Z-stones greatly outweigh the cost of running it over another item, and while a choice item user (possibly the strongest contender to Z-stones in terms of power boosting) has to decide what move they will commit to for the entire match, a Z-move user can Z-move any applicable move on any turn, then turn around and run a countermove right after, with no drawback besides the inability to run another 175+BP nuke or boost 3+ stat stages or whatever. This is fair and balanced when you have 5 other mons on your team and the ability to switch them out at will, but in 1v1 that's too strong.
A 1v1 player has to prepare for any potential Z-set that might be thrown at them plus whatever standard sets the mon might run, and the biggest problem is that it's impossible to tell which Z-set it is. It's normally absolutely fine that you have to figure out the item on the other mon - that's part of the game, and other items are generally balanced enough - but with a Z-stone there's just no way to figure it out in a battle and react appropriately. Will Landorus run Flyinium-Z or Groundium-Z? Can I counter Tapu Koko assuming it has Electrium-Z, or will I lose because it had Fairium-Z instead? Losing because of a shortage of data that is impossible to obtain during the course of a match isn't fun or competitive, it just sucks.
Z-stones, as a power amplifier, also boost viability in the meta, but it doesn't boost viability equally. For some mons, that means they're made much more viable than others thanks to Z-stones. Barbaracle is probably the oldest example - the only reason it showed up on the ladder is because Z-moves made it a viable counter to strong meta threats (KyuB and both zards, IIRC), and in cases like these, it's actually beneficial to diversity in the meta.
However, it's my opinion that if the only reason a mon is viable (ranked highly or even at all) is because of Z-stones, then it isn't really fair to say that it belongs in the same ranks as the rest of the meta, because without that stone it would be a crap mon that couldn't hold its own. Kommo-O is probably one of the best examples of this - Clangorous Soulblaze is basically Z-Draco Meteor plus Z-Happy Hour in one move, and Kommo-O is bad enough that it likely wouldn't be on the viability rankings without the frankly overpowered Kommonium-Z. As stated above, Tapu Koko gets most of its power from Z-stones, and would fall far without them. I think that it's fundamentally unfair for these mons and mons like them to be stronger on the basis of a single item (especially an item with as much power as a Z-Stone), and I think the game would feel more fair without Z-Stones. Jirachi was banned because it was a strong mon that managed to abuse a certain item, Choice Scarf, and without it the meta feels much better - I think banning Z-Stones, the simplest source of the problem, will create a similar re-infusion of fairness.
As for the arguments for keeping Z-Stones, we would maintain greater diversity in mons and movesets, but most of you can't say whether it's better to not have a Z-less meta because the data to support that literally doesn't exist - ever since their implementation Z-moves have been in 1v1, and with a whole generation added alongside the mechanic I think the meta changed too much at that time to determine if banning Z-Stones was objectively better or not. We have had Z-less tournaments, but I can count those on one hand, and it's completely unreasonable to observe a meta shift using a couple of tourneys as the dataset. Right now I would love to ban Z-Stones permanently, but I think the reasonable move is to suspect Z-Stones on the ladder for a few months and see what happens, then make a determination from there. A long-term experiment is in order, or else I fear the only thing that will shape the results of the suspect test is the memory of the Z-stone meta, without regard for the actual meta without Z-Stones.
TL;DR: Running Z-stones is way too strong given the cost, and should be banned - but a suspect test for Z-Stones should be held over several months to determine the best option.
First of all, I did enjoy your post and I do not mean to say that your arguments are invalid. Just some thoughts on your thoughts, eh?
In regards to suspect vs ban, it will absolutely not be a quick ban. We need to be able to gauge the desirability of a meta without Z as compared to a meta with Z.
Z moves are hardly the hardest thing to predict. I'd argue that in this manner of uncompetitiveness, Charizard and Choice Scarf are much worse than Z moves. Charizard, in essence, is two different Pokemon that are completely indifferentiable at team preview. Choice Scarf on the other hand, changes any given mon's speed tier, allowing them to beat a completely different set of Pokemon than other sets can.
I don't get this. Mawile wouldn't be on the VR if it weren't for its Mega Stone, but we don't see it as any less. The claim that if a Pokemon is reliant on Z moves to be viable it's "not fair" doesn't make any sense.
In regards to suspect vs ban, it will absolutely not be a quick ban. We need to be able to gauge the desirability of a meta without Z as compared to a meta with Z.
The Official Glyx
Banned deucer.
Great post btw, I could die happy if the entire thread were like this-
This is definitely an issue, and a strong point of argument that renders Pokemon holding Z-Crystals a similar capability of unpredictability as the removal of Species Clause would.
This, however, is somewhat iffy. You definitely cannot use individual cases to cover an entire metagame. Every ban that has ever been made has either been because of something either an individual or small group of pokemon were capable of taking advantage of, OR something almost every pokemon is capable of taking advantage of (ie Swagger, OHKO, evasion, etc). To ban Z-Moves as a whole, Z-Moves would have to be a metagame-wide issue, rather than issue with a few individuals, otherwise, the ideal solutions would either be to ban the individuals, ban the items that make them so good, or even the complex route of rendering those individuals incapable of holding either all Z-Crystals or specifically the one that makes them too good.
I definitely believe the best course of action is to have more No-Z 1v1 tournaments to get a better understanding of what the metagame would be like. I'm hopeful that it can be one of the Official tournament metagames for next month, and possibly longer.
The only difference between a Pokemon(and its Mega) and a ZStone holder WRT the VR is that a Mega Pokemon is considered as a separate entity than the original Pokemon, while a ZStone user is the original Pokemon and there is no separate entity as a ZStoned BVC being X rank and a nonZStoned BVC being Y rank. To quote your example Mawile is unranked while MawileMega is ranked. But there is no ZPrimarina ranking, nonZPrimarina ranking. So, in fact, the argument that ZStone increases the viability of a Pokemon is not insensible; quite on the contrary, it is one of the few strong points to oust ZMoves; the fact that a large number of Pokemon with a huge number of possible movesets is in a way, crippling in the team-building process!
I don't think this needs an introduction, so I'll just leave you with some big words followed by my post
2018-02 item usage statistics
those words are very big
Out of 1035435 used Pokémon, 304056 or 29.365% used a mega stone.
Out of 1035435 used Pokémon, 260898 or 25.197% used a z-item.
Out of 1035435 used Pokémon, 170072 or 16.425% used a choice item.
Out of 1035435 used Pokémon, 10004 or 0.966% used a 50% healing berry.
Out of 1035435 used Pokémon, 10212 or 0.986% used a resist berry.
Out of 1035435 used Pokémon, 4460 or 0.431% used a pinch boost berry.
Total battles probably recorded: 172573
Out of 1027892 used Pokémon, 304004 or 29.575% used a mega stone.
Out of 1027892 used Pokémon, 277268 or 26.974% used a z-item.
Out of 1027892 used Pokémon, 183061 or 17.809% used a choice item.
Out of 1027892 used Pokémon, 10350 or 1.007% used a 50% healing berry.
Out of 1027892 used Pokémon, 10152 or 0.988% used a resist berry.
Out of 1027892 used Pokémon, 5158 or 0.502% used a pinch boost berry.
Total battles probably recorded: 171315
Out of 1006470 used Pokémon, 303904 or 30.195% used a mega stone.
Out of 1006470 used Pokémon, 322822 or 32.075% used a z-item.
Out of 1006470 used Pokémon, 176734 or 17.56% used a choice item.
Out of 1006470 used Pokémon, 7569 or 0.752% used a 50% healing berry.
Out of 1006470 used Pokémon, 12231 or 1.215% used a resist berry.
Out of 1006470 used Pokémon, 5271 or 0.524% used a pinch boost berry.
Total battles probably recorded: 167745
Out of 1000342 used Pokémon, 303917 or 30.381% used a mega stone.
Out of 1000342 used Pokémon, 310413 or 31.031% used a z-item.
Out of 1000342 used Pokémon, 169337 or 16.928% used a choice item.
Out of 1000342 used Pokémon, 6420 or 0.642% used a 50% healing berry.
Out of 1000342 used Pokémon, 13229 or 1.322% used a resist berry.
Out of 1000342 used Pokémon, 6531 or 0.653% used a pinch boost berry.
Total battles probably recorded: 166724
I am genuinely surprised that fit in one post...
2018-02 item usage statistics
those words are very big
Code:
+-------------------+------------+------------------+
| Item name | Raw usage | Usage percentage |
+-------------------+------------+------------------+
| choicescarf | 75296 | 7.2719% |
| leftovers | 73957 | 7.1426% |
| choicespecs | 58793 | 5.6781% |
| gyaradosite | 42193 | 4.0749% |
| charizarditex | 38602 | 3.7281% |
| electriumz | 36847 | 3.5586% |
| choiceband | 35983 | 3.4752% |
| lifeorb | 27516 | 2.6574% |
| groundiumz | 24972 | 2.4117% |
| charizarditey | 21640 | 2.0899% |
| normaliumz | 21231 | 2.0504% |
| lopunnite | 19464 | 1.8798% |
| assaultvest | 18010 | 1.7394% |
| metagrossite | 17727 | 1.7120% |
| mimikiumz | 17560 | 1.6959% |
| fairiumz | 17369 | 1.6775% |
| flyiniumz | 15627 | 1.5092% |
| rockiumz | 15438 | 1.4910% |
| wateriumz | 15335 | 1.4810% |
| berryjuice | 14884 | 1.4375% |
| ghostiumz | 13748 | 1.3278% |
| eviolite | 13677 | 1.3209% |
| alakazite | 13062 | 1.2615% |
| psychiumz | 12542 | 1.2113% |
| weaknesspolicy | 12396 | 1.1972% |
| venusaurite | 11940 | 1.1531% |
| airballoon | 11699 | 1.1299% |
| sitrusberry | 11490 | 1.1097% |
| blazikenite | 11228 | 1.0844% |
| nothing | 11020 | 1.0643% |
| fightiniumz | 10064 | 0.9720% |
| mawilite | 9747 | 0.9413% |
| iciumz | 9375 | 0.9054% |
| firiumz | 9335 | 0.9016% |
| rockyhelmet | 8910 | 0.8605% |
| gardevoirite | 8583 | 0.8289% |
| dragoniumz | 8235 | 0.7953% |
| scizorite | 7440 | 0.7185% |
| heracronite | 7030 | 0.6789% |
| diancite | 6939 | 0.6702% |
| lumberry | 6611 | 0.6385% |
| steeliumz | 6430 | 0.6210% |
| tyranitarite | 6271 | 0.6056% |
| sablenite | 6264 | 0.6050% |
| lucarionite | 6237 | 0.6024% |
| medichamite | 6094 | 0.5885% |
| grassiumz | 5870 | 0.5669% |
| slowbronite | 5768 | 0.5571% |
| aggronite | 5661 | 0.5467% |
| toxicorb | 5597 | 0.5405% |
| gengarite | 5178 | 0.5001% |
| swampertite | 5152 | 0.4976% |
| pinsirite | 4726 | 0.4564% |
| quickclaw | 4268 | 0.4122% |
| blastoisinite | 4088 | 0.3948% |
| aguavberry | 4060 | 0.3921% |
| kommoniumz | 3968 | 0.3832% |
| shellbell | 3881 | 0.3748% |
| galladite | 3704 | 0.3577% |
| garchompite | 3396 | 0.3280% |
| kingsrock | 3340 | 0.3226% |
| primariumz | 3338 | 0.3224% |
| flameorb | 3148 | 0.3040% |
| mewniumz | 3075 | 0.2970% |
| blacksludge | 3030 | 0.2926% |
| whiteherb | 3006 | 0.2903% |
| altarianite | 2978 | 0.2876% |
| widelens | 2793 | 0.2697% |
| chestoberry | 2783 | 0.2688% |
| darkiniumz | 2749 | 0.2655% |
| sceptilite | 2680 | 0.2588% |
| figyberry | 2677 | 0.2585% |
| keeberry | 2455 | 0.2371% |
| expertbelt | 2356 | 0.2275% |
| buginiumz | 2145 | 0.2072% |
| focusband | 2137 | 0.2064% |
| babiriberry | 2092 | 0.2020% |
| banettite | 2086 | 0.2015% |
| brightpowder | 2059 | 0.1989% |
| rindoberry | 2040 | 0.1970% |
| beedrillite | 2021 | 0.1952% |
| mentalherb | 1963 | 0.1896% |
| thickclub | 1911 | 0.1846% |
| liechiberry | 1837 | 0.1774% |
| powerherb | 1685 | 0.1627% |
| poisoniumz | 1645 | 0.1589% |
| salacberry | 1642 | 0.1586% |
| absolite | 1606 | 0.1551% |
| normalgem | 1491 | 0.1440% |
| iapapaberry | 1459 | 0.1409% |
| steelixite | 1444 | 0.1395% |
| latiasite | 1405 | 0.1357% |
| ampharosite | 1387 | 0.1340% |
| pidgeotite | 1352 | 0.1306% |
| wikiberry | 1343 | 0.1297% |
| safetygoggles | 1303 | 0.1258% |
| habanberry | 1300 | 0.1256% |
| sharpedonite | 1286 | 0.1242% |
| occaberry | 1283 | 0.1239% |
| cameruptite | 1233 | 0.1191% |
| aerodactylite | 1153 | 0.1114% |
| manectite | 1124 | 0.1086% |
| houndoominite | 1122 | 0.1084% |
| latiosite | 1052 | 0.1016% |
| yacheberry | 1009 | 0.0974% |
| chopleberry | 945 | 0.0913% |
| bigroot | 935 | 0.0903% |
| abomasite | 845 | 0.0816% |
| scopelens | 839 | 0.0810% |
| oranberry | 838 | 0.0809% |
| lycaniumz | 800 | 0.0773% |
| silkscarf | 762 | 0.0736% |
| snorliumz | 716 | 0.0691% |
| audinite | 614 | 0.0593% |
| colburberry | 574 | 0.0554% |
| petayaberry | 565 | 0.0546% |
| leppaberry | 545 | 0.0526% |
| glalitite | 522 | 0.0504% |
| decidiumz | 520 | 0.0502% |
| shucaberry | 518 | 0.0500% |
| lightball | 515 | 0.0497% |
| aloraichiumz | 504 | 0.0487% |
| metronome | 497 | 0.0480% |
| zoomlens | 478 | 0.0462% |
| magoberry | 465 | 0.0449% |
| blackbelt | 460 | 0.0444% |
| inciniumz | 442 | 0.0427% |
| mysticwater | 432 | 0.0417% |
| dragonfang | 396 | 0.0382% |
| eeviumz | 388 | 0.0375% |
| adrenalineorb | 351 | 0.0339% |
| muscleband | 351 | 0.0339% |
| tapuniumz | 330 | 0.0319% |
| ironball | 310 | 0.0299% |
| nevermeltice | 304 | 0.0294% |
| blackglasses | 303 | 0.0293% |
| razorclaw | 302 | 0.0292% |
| razorfang | 279 | 0.0269% |
| stickybarb | 277 | 0.0268% |
| ganlonberry | 268 | 0.0259% |
| charcoal | 256 | 0.0247% |
| burndrive | 250 | 0.0241% |
| heatrock | 217 | 0.0210% |
| damprock | 208 | 0.0201% |
| electricseed | 204 | 0.0197% |
| lightclay | 200 | 0.0193% |
| laxincense | 192 | 0.0185% |
| luckypunch | 188 | 0.0182% |
| dousedrive | 185 | 0.0179% |
| fistplate | 177 | 0.0171% |
| shockdrive | 174 | 0.0168% |
| dreadplate | 168 | 0.0162% |
| stick | 163 | 0.0157% |
| poisonbarb | 162 | 0.0156% |
| pikaniumz | 160 | 0.0155% |
| flameplate | 160 | 0.0155% |
| dracoplate | 159 | 0.0154% |
| souldew | 154 | 0.0149% |
| wacanberry | 149 | 0.0144% |
| magnet | 149 | 0.0144% |
| apicotberry | 148 | 0.0143% |
| grassyseed | 136 | 0.0131% |
| pechaberry | 136 | 0.0131% |
| wiseglasses | 128 | 0.0124% |
| bindingband | 126 | 0.0122% |
| miracleseed | 114 | 0.0110% |
| protectivepads | 112 | 0.0108% |
| splashplate | 105 | 0.0101% |
| meadowplate | 103 | 0.0099% |
| icicleplate | 100 | 0.0097% |
| chartiberry | 94 | 0.0091% |
| deepseatooth | 91 | 0.0088% |
| laggingtail | 89 | 0.0086% |
| twistedspoon | 88 | 0.0085% |
| cobaberry | 87 | 0.0084% |
| zapplate | 85 | 0.0082% |
| metalcoat | 82 | 0.0079% |
| skyplate | 82 | 0.0079% |
| steelmemory | 81 | 0.0078% |
| spookyplate | 80 | 0.0077% |
| psychicmemory | 73 | 0.0071% |
| pikashuniumz | 71 | 0.0069% |
| starfberry | 70 | 0.0068% |
| redcard | 69 | 0.0067% |
| ironplate | 68 | 0.0066% |
| ultranecroziumz | 67 | 0.0065% |
| quickpowder | 66 | 0.0064% |
| marangaberry | 66 | 0.0064% |
| psychicseed | 65 | 0.0063% |
| grassmemory | 62 | 0.0060% |
| toxicplate | 62 | 0.0060% |
| absorbbulb | 61 | 0.0059% |
| smoothrock | 61 | 0.0059% |
| persimberry | 60 | 0.0058% |
| mindplate | 60 | 0.0058% |
| fairymemory | 59 | 0.0057% |
| pixieplate | 58 | 0.0056% |
| icyrock | 55 | 0.0053% |
| sharpbeak | 53 | 0.0051% |
| insectplate | 53 | 0.0051% |
| shedshell | 52 | 0.0050% |
| dragonmemory | 51 | 0.0049% |
| snowball | 50 | 0.0048% |
| cellbattery | 46 | 0.0044% |
| chilldrive | 45 | 0.0043% |
| lansatberry | 43 | 0.0042% |
| softsand | 38 | 0.0037% |
| hardstone | 38 | 0.0037% |
| waveincense | 36 | 0.0035% |
| fullincense | 32 | 0.0031% |
| electricmemory | 30 | 0.0029% |
| passhoberry | 30 | 0.0029% |
| powerband | 30 | 0.0029% |
| pokeball | 29 | 0.0028% |
| mistyseed | 29 | 0.0028% |
| ejectbutton | 27 | 0.0026% |
| kasibberry | 25 | 0.0024% |
| earthplate | 24 | 0.0023% |
| kebiaberry | 23 | 0.0022% |
| firememory | 21 | 0.0020% |
| icememory | 20 | 0.0019% |
| greatball | 20 | 0.0019% |
| payapaberry | 19 | 0.0018% |
| spelltag | 18 | 0.0017% |
| beastball | 17 | 0.0016% |
| gripclaw | 17 | 0.0016% |
| roseliberry | 16 | 0.0015% |
| electirizer | 15 | 0.0014% |
| terrainextender | 14 | 0.0014% |
| watermemory | 14 | 0.0014% |
| silverpowder | 13 | 0.0013% |
| fightingmemory | 12 | 0.0012% |
| mewtwonitex | 11 | 0.0011% |
| oddincense | 11 | 0.0011% |
| flyingmemory | 10 | 0.0010% |
| rockmemory | 9 | 0.0009% |
| seaincense | 9 | 0.0009% |
| destinyknot | 9 | 0.0009% |
| masterball | 8 | 0.0008% |
| bugmemory | 7 | 0.0007% |
| roseincense | 7 | 0.0007% |
| metalpowder | 6 | 0.0006% |
| deepseascale | 6 | 0.0006% |
| chilanberry | 6 | 0.0006% |
| ringtarget | 6 | 0.0006% |
| rarebone | 6 | 0.0006% |
| blukberry | 6 | 0.0006% |
| cheriberry | 5 | 0.0005% |
| rockincense | 5 | 0.0005% |
| helixfossil | 5 | 0.0005% |
| groundmemory | 5 | 0.0005% |
| darkmemory | 5 | 0.0005% |
| luminousmoss | 5 | 0.0005% |
| grepaberry | 4 | 0.0004% |
| powerweight | 4 | 0.0004% |
| ghostmemory | 4 | 0.0004% |
| floatstone | 4 | 0.0004% |
| adamantorb | 3 | 0.0003% |
| diveball | 3 | 0.0003% |
| nestball | 3 | 0.0003% |
| premierball | 3 | 0.0003% |
| powerlens | 3 | 0.0003% |
| stoneplate | 3 | 0.0003% |
| aspearberry | 3 | 0.0003% |
| healball | 2 | 0.0002% |
| blueorb | 2 | 0.0002% |
| tangaberry | 2 | 0.0002% |
| solganiumz | 2 | 0.0002% |
| hondewberry | 1 | 0.0001% |
| safariball | 1 | 0.0001% |
| powerbelt | 1 | 0.0001% |
| quickball | 1 | 0.0001% |
| armorfossil | 1 | 0.0001% |
| levelball | 1 | 0.0001% |
| mewtwonitey | 1 | 0.0001% |
+-------------------+------------+------------------+Out of 1035435 used Pokémon, 260898 or 25.197% used a z-item.
Out of 1035435 used Pokémon, 170072 or 16.425% used a choice item.
Out of 1035435 used Pokémon, 10004 or 0.966% used a 50% healing berry.
Out of 1035435 used Pokémon, 10212 or 0.986% used a resist berry.
Out of 1035435 used Pokémon, 4460 or 0.431% used a pinch boost berry.
Total battles probably recorded: 172573
Code:
+-------------------+------------+------------------+
| Item name | Raw usage | Usage percentage |
+-------------------+------------+------------------+
| choicescarf | 80528 | 7.8350% |
| choicespecs | 63459 | 6.1743% |
| leftovers | 62933 | 6.1231% |
| gyaradosite | 42199 | 4.1058% |
| electriumz | 39172 | 3.8113% |
| choiceband | 39074 | 3.8017% |
| charizarditex | 38602 | 3.7558% |
| groundiumz | 28027 | 2.7269% |
| lifeorb | 22775 | 2.2159% |
| charizarditey | 21640 | 2.1055% |
| normaliumz | 21313 | 2.0737% |
| lopunnite | 19461 | 1.8935% |
| fairiumz | 19238 | 1.8718% |
| mimikiumz | 18986 | 1.8473% |
| metagrossite | 17722 | 1.7243% |
| rockiumz | 17013 | 1.6553% |
| flyiniumz | 16858 | 1.6402% |
| assaultvest | 16425 | 1.5981% |
| wateriumz | 16337 | 1.5895% |
| ghostiumz | 14974 | 1.4569% |
| berryjuice | 13568 | 1.3201% |
| eviolite | 13162 | 1.2806% |
| alakazite | 13056 | 1.2703% |
| psychiumz | 12711 | 1.2367% |
| weaknesspolicy | 12000 | 1.1675% |
| venusaurite | 11936 | 1.1613% |
| blazikenite | 11228 | 1.0924% |
| fightiniumz | 11048 | 1.0749% |
| sitrusberry | 10171 | 0.9896% |
| airballoon | 9999 | 0.9729% |
| mawilite | 9747 | 0.9483% |
| firiumz | 9132 | 0.8885% |
| iciumz | 8929 | 0.8688% |
| gardevoirite | 8583 | 0.8351% |
| dragoniumz | 7675 | 0.7467% |
| scizorite | 7439 | 0.7238% |
| steeliumz | 7355 | 0.7156% |
| heracronite | 7018 | 0.6828% |
| rockyhelmet | 6979 | 0.6790% |
| diancite | 6939 | 0.6751% |
| grassiumz | 6436 | 0.6262% |
| tyranitarite | 6271 | 0.6101% |
| sablenite | 6264 | 0.6095% |
| lucarionite | 6237 | 0.6068% |
| medichamite | 6090 | 0.5925% |
| slowbronite | 5768 | 0.5612% |
| aggronite | 5661 | 0.5508% |
| nothing | 5559 | 0.5409% |
| lumberry | 5444 | 0.5297% |
| gengarite | 5178 | 0.5038% |
| swampertite | 5152 | 0.5013% |
| toxicorb | 4877 | 0.4745% |
| pinsirite | 4720 | 0.4592% |
| kommoniumz | 4195 | 0.4082% |
| blastoisinite | 4088 | 0.3977% |
| aguavberry | 3938 | 0.3832% |
| galladite | 3706 | 0.3606% |
| shellbell | 3690 | 0.3590% |
| quickclaw | 3620 | 0.3522% |
| mewniumz | 3560 | 0.3464% |
| kingsrock | 3453 | 0.3360% |
| garchompite | 3395 | 0.3303% |
| blacksludge | 3394 | 0.3302% |
| keeberry | 3281 | 0.3192% |
| primariumz | 3177 | 0.3091% |
| flameorb | 3117 | 0.3033% |
| figyberry | 3014 | 0.2932% |
| altarianite | 2973 | 0.2893% |
| darkiniumz | 2802 | 0.2726% |
| widelens | 2773 | 0.2698% |
| brightpowder | 2730 | 0.2656% |
| sceptilite | 2680 | 0.2608% |
| whiteherb | 2678 | 0.2606% |
| babiriberry | 2413 | 0.2348% |
| mentalherb | 2406 | 0.2341% |
| buginiumz | 2385 | 0.2321% |
| rindoberry | 2178 | 0.2119% |
| salacberry | 2141 | 0.2083% |
| banettite | 2086 | 0.2030% |
| poisoniumz | 2050 | 0.1995% |
| thickclub | 2049 | 0.1994% |
| beedrillite | 2021 | 0.1966% |
| liechiberry | 1890 | 0.1839% |
| expertbelt | 1882 | 0.1831% |
| chestoberry | 1734 | 0.1687% |
| focusband | 1646 | 0.1601% |
| absolite | 1606 | 0.1563% |
| powerherb | 1605 | 0.1562% |
| wikiberry | 1494 | 0.1454% |
| occaberry | 1479 | 0.1439% |
| steelixite | 1444 | 0.1405% |
| iapapaberry | 1405 | 0.1367% |
| latiasite | 1404 | 0.1366% |
| ampharosite | 1387 | 0.1349% |
| pidgeotite | 1353 | 0.1316% |
| habanberry | 1326 | 0.1290% |
| sharpedonite | 1286 | 0.1251% |
| cameruptite | 1229 | 0.1196% |
| aerodactylite | 1153 | 0.1122% |
| normalgem | 1148 | 0.1117% |
| manectite | 1124 | 0.1094% |
| houndoominite | 1122 | 0.1092% |
| bigroot | 1121 | 0.1091% |
| latiosite | 1052 | 0.1024% |
| lycaniumz | 853 | 0.0830% |
| abomasite | 844 | 0.0821% |
| petayaberry | 771 | 0.0750% |
| yacheberry | 760 | 0.0739% |
| snorliumz | 674 | 0.0656% |
| oranberry | 670 | 0.0652% |
| aloraichiumz | 669 | 0.0651% |
| safetygoggles | 664 | 0.0646% |
| silkscarf | 645 | 0.0628% |
| audinite | 614 | 0.0597% |
| lightball | 567 | 0.0552% |
| colburberry | 552 | 0.0537% |
| scopelens | 534 | 0.0520% |
| glalitite | 521 | 0.0507% |
| shucaberry | 502 | 0.0488% |
| magoberry | 499 | 0.0486% |
| metronome | 486 | 0.0473% |
| decidiumz | 480 | 0.0467% |
| chopleberry | 452 | 0.0440% |
| eeviumz | 378 | 0.0368% |
| leppaberry | 362 | 0.0352% |
| razorclaw | 359 | 0.0349% |
| inciniumz | 342 | 0.0333% |
| nevermeltice | 337 | 0.0328% |
| ganlonberry | 304 | 0.0296% |
| zoomlens | 297 | 0.0289% |
| mysticwater | 295 | 0.0287% |
| razorfang | 274 | 0.0267% |
| burndrive | 237 | 0.0231% |
| dragonfang | 232 | 0.0226% |
| damprock | 228 | 0.0222% |
| adrenalineorb | 227 | 0.0221% |
| blackglasses | 221 | 0.0215% |
| pikaniumz | 221 | 0.0215% |
| blackbelt | 215 | 0.0209% |
| wacanberry | 214 | 0.0208% |
| ironball | 196 | 0.0191% |
| muscleband | 196 | 0.0191% |
| tapuniumz | 190 | 0.0185% |
| dreadplate | 178 | 0.0173% |
| laxincense | 172 | 0.0167% |
| lightclay | 163 | 0.0159% |
| bindingband | 160 | 0.0156% |
| grassyseed | 153 | 0.0149% |
| electricseed | 149 | 0.0145% |
| magnet | 143 | 0.0139% |
| dousedrive | 142 | 0.0138% |
| poisonbarb | 135 | 0.0131% |
| heatrock | 126 | 0.0123% |
| charcoal | 122 | 0.0119% |
| snowball | 121 | 0.0118% |
| deepseatooth | 103 | 0.0100% |
| souldew | 103 | 0.0100% |
| icicleplate | 99 | 0.0096% |
| luckypunch | 98 | 0.0095% |
| wiseglasses | 86 | 0.0084% |
| stick | 85 | 0.0083% |
| flameplate | 83 | 0.0081% |
| cobaberry | 78 | 0.0076% |
| skyplate | 77 | 0.0075% |
| chartiberry | 77 | 0.0075% |
| miracleseed | 75 | 0.0073% |
| dracoplate | 71 | 0.0069% |
| twistedspoon | 70 | 0.0068% |
| shockdrive | 68 | 0.0066% |
| pechaberry | 68 | 0.0066% |
| marangaberry | 66 | 0.0064% |
| toxicplate | 63 | 0.0061% |
| fistplate | 61 | 0.0059% |
| pikashuniumz | 60 | 0.0058% |
| grassmemory | 60 | 0.0058% |
| laggingtail | 59 | 0.0057% |
| zapplate | 55 | 0.0054% |
| ironplate | 54 | 0.0053% |
| apicotberry | 52 | 0.0051% |
| spookyplate | 50 | 0.0049% |
| shedshell | 47 | 0.0046% |
| splashplate | 45 | 0.0044% |
| protectivepads | 42 | 0.0041% |
| quickpowder | 42 | 0.0041% |
| metalcoat | 39 | 0.0038% |
| stickybarb | 39 | 0.0038% |
| icyrock | 39 | 0.0038% |
| meadowplate | 36 | 0.0035% |
| pixieplate | 33 | 0.0032% |
| chilldrive | 32 | 0.0031% |
| kasibberry | 32 | 0.0031% |
| smoothrock | 30 | 0.0029% |
| lansatberry | 29 | 0.0028% |
| softsand | 28 | 0.0027% |
| absorbbulb | 28 | 0.0027% |
| hardstone | 28 | 0.0027% |
| ultranecroziumz | 28 | 0.0027% |
| mistyseed | 24 | 0.0023% |
| sharpbeak | 24 | 0.0023% |
| payapaberry | 24 | 0.0023% |
| earthplate | 22 | 0.0021% |
| passhoberry | 21 | 0.0020% |
| psychicseed | 21 | 0.0020% |
| redcard | 21 | 0.0020% |
| mindplate | 21 | 0.0020% |
| insectplate | 20 | 0.0019% |
| kebiaberry | 19 | 0.0018% |
| silverpowder | 18 | 0.0018% |
| roseliberry | 18 | 0.0018% |
| cellbattery | 18 | 0.0018% |
| dragonmemory | 16 | 0.0016% |
| starfberry | 13 | 0.0013% |
| persimberry | 13 | 0.0013% |
| firememory | 12 | 0.0012% |
| deepseascale | 12 | 0.0012% |
| spelltag | 12 | 0.0012% |
| pokeball | 10 | 0.0010% |
| electricmemory | 9 | 0.0009% |
| destinyknot | 9 | 0.0009% |
| psychicmemory | 9 | 0.0009% |
| terrainextender | 9 | 0.0009% |
| seaincense | 9 | 0.0009% |
| ejectbutton | 9 | 0.0009% |
| beastball | 8 | 0.0008% |
| icememory | 8 | 0.0008% |
| powerband | 8 | 0.0008% |
| metalpowder | 8 | 0.0008% |
| watermemory | 7 | 0.0007% |
| roseincense | 7 | 0.0007% |
| steelmemory | 7 | 0.0007% |
| fightingmemory | 7 | 0.0007% |
| bugmemory | 7 | 0.0007% |
| waveincense | 7 | 0.0007% |
| chilanberry | 6 | 0.0006% |
| rockincense | 6 | 0.0006% |
| gripclaw | 6 | 0.0006% |
| fairymemory | 5 | 0.0005% |
| rarebone | 5 | 0.0005% |
| rockmemory | 5 | 0.0005% |
| grepaberry | 5 | 0.0005% |
| oddincense | 5 | 0.0005% |
| premierball | 4 | 0.0004% |
| ringtarget | 4 | 0.0004% |
| armorfossil | 4 | 0.0004% |
| fullincense | 4 | 0.0004% |
| mewtwonitex | 4 | 0.0004% |
| cheriberry | 3 | 0.0003% |
| diveball | 2 | 0.0002% |
| adamantorb | 2 | 0.0002% |
| electirizer | 2 | 0.0002% |
| ghostmemory | 2 | 0.0002% |
| powerbelt | 2 | 0.0002% |
| masterball | 2 | 0.0002% |
| aspearberry | 2 | 0.0002% |
| powerlens | 2 | 0.0002% |
| blukberry | 2 | 0.0002% |
| stoneplate | 2 | 0.0002% |
| healball | 1 | 0.0001% |
| tangaberry | 1 | 0.0001% |
| flyingmemory | 1 | 0.0001% |
| luminousmoss | 1 | 0.0001% |
| mewtwonitey | 1 | 0.0001% |
| nestball | 1 | 0.0001% |
| safariball | 1 | 0.0001% |
| greatball | 0 | 0% |
| blueorb | 0 | 0% |
| hondewberry | 0 | 0% |
| solganiumz | 0 | 0% |
| helixfossil | 0 | 0% |
| darkmemory | 0 | 0% |
| powerweight | 0 | 0% |
| quickball | 0 | 0% |
| groundmemory | 0 | 0% |
| levelball | 0 | 0% |
| floatstone | 0 | 0% |
+-------------------+------------+------------------+Out of 1027892 used Pokémon, 277268 or 26.974% used a z-item.
Out of 1027892 used Pokémon, 183061 or 17.809% used a choice item.
Out of 1027892 used Pokémon, 10350 or 1.007% used a 50% healing berry.
Out of 1027892 used Pokémon, 10152 or 0.988% used a resist berry.
Out of 1027892 used Pokémon, 5158 or 0.502% used a pinch boost berry.
Total battles probably recorded: 171315
Code:
+-------------------+------------+------------------+
| Item name | Raw usage | Usage percentage |
+-------------------+------------+------------------+
| choicescarf | 69444 | 6.9006% |
| choicespecs | 66521 | 6.6101% |
| electriumz | 42530 | 4.2262% |
| gyaradosite | 42189 | 4.1923% |
| leftovers | 40807 | 4.0550% |
| choiceband | 40769 | 4.0512% |
| charizarditex | 38602 | 3.8359% |
| groundiumz | 37826 | 3.7587% |
| normaliumz | 25910 | 2.5747% |
| fairiumz | 25367 | 2.5207% |
| mimikiumz | 22235 | 2.2095% |
| charizarditey | 21639 | 2.1503% |
| lopunnite | 19461 | 1.9338% |
| flyiniumz | 18560 | 1.8443% |
| wateriumz | 17860 | 1.7747% |
| metagrossite | 17713 | 1.7601% |
| rockiumz | 17664 | 1.7553% |
| ghostiumz | 17182 | 1.7074% |
| lifeorb | 17053 | 1.6945% |
| psychiumz | 15675 | 1.5576% |
| fightiniumz | 13711 | 1.3625% |
| alakazite | 13055 | 1.2973% |
| steeliumz | 12781 | 1.2700% |
| assaultvest | 12358 | 1.2280% |
| venusaurite | 11934 | 1.1859% |
| eviolite | 11768 | 1.1694% |
| blazikenite | 11228 | 1.1157% |
| airballoon | 11182 | 1.1111% |
| berryjuice | 10552 | 1.0485% |
| mawilite | 9747 | 0.9686% |
| firiumz | 8982 | 0.8925% |
| gardevoirite | 8583 | 0.8529% |
| grassiumz | 8022 | 0.7971% |
| dragoniumz | 7722 | 0.7673% |
| iciumz | 7504 | 0.7457% |
| scizorite | 7438 | 0.7391% |
| weaknesspolicy | 7383 | 0.7336% |
| heracronite | 6997 | 0.6953% |
| diancite | 6939 | 0.6895% |
| tyranitarite | 6271 | 0.6231% |
| sablenite | 6262 | 0.6222% |
| lucarionite | 6236 | 0.6197% |
| medichamite | 6077 | 0.6039% |
| sitrusberry | 6007 | 0.5969% |
| slowbronite | 5768 | 0.5732% |
| aggronite | 5661 | 0.5625% |
| gengarite | 5176 | 0.5143% |
| swampertite | 5152 | 0.5120% |
| pinsirite | 4719 | 0.4689% |
| lumberry | 4652 | 0.4623% |
| rockyhelmet | 4441 | 0.4413% |
| kommoniumz | 4360 | 0.4332% |
| keeberry | 4312 | 0.4285% |
| mewniumz | 4135 | 0.4109% |
| blastoisinite | 4088 | 0.4062% |
| quickclaw | 4073 | 0.4047% |
| shellbell | 3992 | 0.3967% |
| toxicorb | 3890 | 0.3865% |
| brightpowder | 3712 | 0.3689% |
| galladite | 3695 | 0.3672% |
| primariumz | 3646 | 0.3623% |
| garchompite | 3395 | 0.3374% |
| salacberry | 3196 | 0.3176% |
| babiriberry | 3096 | 0.3076% |
| widelens | 3024 | 0.3005% |
| altarianite | 2973 | 0.2954% |
| occaberry | 2777 | 0.2759% |
| sceptilite | 2680 | 0.2663% |
| poisoniumz | 2637 | 0.2620% |
| blacksludge | 2628 | 0.2611% |
| flameorb | 2451 | 0.2436% |
| kingsrock | 2436 | 0.2421% |
| nothing | 2429 | 0.2414% |
| buginiumz | 2371 | 0.2356% |
| aguavberry | 2300 | 0.2285% |
| figyberry | 2248 | 0.2234% |
| rindoberry | 2232 | 0.2218% |
| thickclub | 2120 | 0.2107% |
| banettite | 2086 | 0.2073% |
| beedrillite | 2021 | 0.2008% |
| normalgem | 1778 | 0.1767% |
| whiteherb | 1773 | 0.1762% |
| habanberry | 1706 | 0.1695% |
| iapapaberry | 1682 | 0.1671% |
| absolite | 1606 | 0.1596% |
| darkiniumz | 1516 | 0.1506% |
| steelixite | 1444 | 0.1435% |
| mentalherb | 1428 | 0.1419% |
| latiasite | 1404 | 0.1395% |
| ampharosite | 1387 | 0.1378% |
| pidgeotite | 1348 | 0.1339% |
| expertbelt | 1344 | 0.1336% |
| sharpedonite | 1286 | 0.1278% |
| cameruptite | 1224 | 0.1216% |
| aerodactylite | 1153 | 0.1146% |
| manectite | 1124 | 0.1117% |
| houndoominite | 1119 | 0.1112% |
| powerherb | 1082 | 0.1075% |
| liechiberry | 1067 | 0.1060% |
| latiosite | 1052 | 0.1045% |
| decidiumz | 1045 | 0.1038% |
| focusband | 1020 | 0.1014% |
| lycaniumz | 991 | 0.0985% |
| oranberry | 989 | 0.0983% |
| petayaberry | 919 | 0.0913% |
| wikiberry | 843 | 0.0838% |
| abomasite | 838 | 0.0833% |
| inciniumz | 804 | 0.0799% |
| chestoberry | 717 | 0.0712% |
| chopleberry | 711 | 0.0707% |
| aloraichiumz | 685 | 0.0681% |
| lightball | 677 | 0.0673% |
| audinite | 614 | 0.0610% |
| glalitite | 520 | 0.0517% |
| shucaberry | 508 | 0.0505% |
| magoberry | 496 | 0.0493% |
| eeviumz | 443 | 0.0440% |
| yacheberry | 426 | 0.0423% |
| snorliumz | 378 | 0.0376% |
| bigroot | 351 | 0.0349% |
| silkscarf | 347 | 0.0345% |
| bindingband | 341 | 0.0339% |
| colburberry | 323 | 0.0321% |
| safetygoggles | 310 | 0.0308% |
| nevermeltice | 299 | 0.0297% |
| adrenalineorb | 266 | 0.0264% |
| blackglasses | 258 | 0.0256% |
| metronome | 257 | 0.0255% |
| razorfang | 248 | 0.0246% |
| mysticwater | 243 | 0.0241% |
| scopelens | 235 | 0.0234% |
| dreadplate | 210 | 0.0209% |
| kasibberry | 192 | 0.0191% |
| pikaniumz | 173 | 0.0172% |
| shedshell | 168 | 0.0167% |
| leppaberry | 166 | 0.0165% |
| wacanberry | 160 | 0.0159% |
| zapplate | 156 | 0.0155% |
| lightclay | 119 | 0.0118% |
| ironball | 111 | 0.0110% |
| marangaberry | 94 | 0.0093% |
| tapuniumz | 92 | 0.0091% |
| absorbbulb | 75 | 0.0075% |
| blackbelt | 72 | 0.0072% |
| wiseglasses | 72 | 0.0072% |
| grassyseed | 71 | 0.0071% |
| ganlonberry | 63 | 0.0063% |
| poisonbarb | 60 | 0.0060% |
| flameplate | 59 | 0.0059% |
| burndrive | 52 | 0.0052% |
| icicleplate | 51 | 0.0051% |
| grassmemory | 48 | 0.0048% |
| razorclaw | 47 | 0.0047% |
| chartiberry | 46 | 0.0046% |
| muscleband | 46 | 0.0046% |
| zoomlens | 42 | 0.0042% |
| damprock | 41 | 0.0041% |
| dragonfang | 39 | 0.0039% |
| electricseed | 36 | 0.0036% |
| souldew | 33 | 0.0033% |
| hardstone | 32 | 0.0032% |
| charcoal | 31 | 0.0031% |
| pechaberry | 30 | 0.0030% |
| dousedrive | 30 | 0.0030% |
| miracleseed | 30 | 0.0030% |
| stickybarb | 29 | 0.0029% |
| dracoplate | 28 | 0.0028% |
| cobaberry | 28 | 0.0028% |
| laggingtail | 27 | 0.0027% |
| ironplate | 27 | 0.0027% |
| fistplate | 27 | 0.0027% |
| lansatberry | 27 | 0.0027% |
| apicotberry | 26 | 0.0026% |
| protectivepads | 26 | 0.0026% |
| heatrock | 26 | 0.0026% |
| laxincense | 25 | 0.0025% |
| magnet | 23 | 0.0023% |
| toxicplate | 21 | 0.0021% |
| starfberry | 19 | 0.0019% |
| silverpowder | 19 | 0.0019% |
| icyrock | 18 | 0.0018% |
| spookyplate | 16 | 0.0016% |
| luckypunch | 16 | 0.0016% |
| splashplate | 16 | 0.0016% |
| smoothrock | 15 | 0.0015% |
| pikashuniumz | 14 | 0.0014% |
| kebiaberry | 13 | 0.0013% |
| redcard | 11 | 0.0011% |
| meadowplate | 11 | 0.0011% |
| twistedspoon | 10 | 0.0010% |
| destinyknot | 9 | 0.0009% |
| shockdrive | 8 | 0.0008% |
| firememory | 8 | 0.0008% |
| quickpowder | 7 | 0.0007% |
| mindplate | 7 | 0.0007% |
| passhoberry | 7 | 0.0007% |
| seaincense | 7 | 0.0007% |
| fairymemory | 7 | 0.0007% |
| pixieplate | 6 | 0.0006% |
| psychicseed | 6 | 0.0006% |
| cellbattery | 6 | 0.0006% |
| sharpbeak | 6 | 0.0006% |
| metalcoat | 5 | 0.0005% |
| earthplate | 4 | 0.0004% |
| roseliberry | 4 | 0.0004% |
| roseincense | 4 | 0.0004% |
| chilldrive | 4 | 0.0004% |
| spelltag | 3 | 0.0003% |
| blukberry | 3 | 0.0003% |
| icememory | 3 | 0.0003% |
| terrainextender | 3 | 0.0003% |
| masterball | 3 | 0.0003% |
| steelmemory | 2 | 0.0002% |
| chilanberry | 2 | 0.0002% |
| adamantorb | 2 | 0.0002% |
| snowball | 2 | 0.0002% |
| softsand | 2 | 0.0002% |
| healball | 1 | 0.0001% |
| insectplate | 1 | 0.0001% |
| electricmemory | 1 | 0.0001% |
| persimberry | 1 | 0.0001% |
| oddincense | 1 | 0.0001% |
| ultranecroziumz | 1 | 0.0001% |
| diveball | 1 | 0.0001% |
| grepaberry | 1 | 0.0001% |
| dragonmemory | 1 | 0.0001% |
| ejectbutton | 1 | 0.0001% |
| deepseatooth | 0 | 0% |
| hondewberry | 0 | 0% |
| watermemory | 0 | 0% |
| safariball | 0 | 0% |
| electirizer | 0 | 0% |
| ringtarget | 0 | 0% |
| payapaberry | 0 | 0% |
| luminousmoss | 0 | 0% |
| solganiumz | 0 | 0% |
| rarebone | 0 | 0% |
| quickball | 0 | 0% |
| tangaberry | 0 | 0% |
| bugmemory | 0 | 0% |
| mewtwonitex | 0 | 0% |
| pokeball | 0 | 0% |
| mistyseed | 0 | 0% |
| ghostmemory | 0 | 0% |
| flyingmemory | 0 | 0% |
| psychicmemory | 0 | 0% |
| beastball | 0 | 0% |
| metalpowder | 0 | 0% |
| blueorb | 0 | 0% |
| gripclaw | 0 | 0% |
| fullincense | 0 | 0% |
| stoneplate | 0 | 0% |
| waveincense | 0 | 0% |
| greatball | 0 | 0% |
| powerlens | 0 | 0% |
| darkmemory | 0 | 0% |
| fightingmemory | 0 | 0% |
| stick | 0 | 0% |
| powerband | 0 | 0% |
| helixfossil | 0 | 0% |
| floatstone | 0 | 0% |
| skyplate | 0 | 0% |
| cheriberry | 0 | 0% |
| groundmemory | 0 | 0% |
| powerweight | 0 | 0% |
| rockincense | 0 | 0% |
| aspearberry | 0 | 0% |
+-------------------+------------+------------------+Out of 1006470 used Pokémon, 322822 or 32.075% used a z-item.
Out of 1006470 used Pokémon, 176734 or 17.56% used a choice item.
Out of 1006470 used Pokémon, 7569 or 0.752% used a 50% healing berry.
Out of 1006470 used Pokémon, 12231 or 1.215% used a resist berry.
Out of 1006470 used Pokémon, 5271 or 0.524% used a pinch boost berry.
Total battles probably recorded: 167745
Code:
+-------------------+------------+------------------+
| Item name | Raw usage | Usage percentage |
+-------------------+------------+------------------+
| choicescarf | 66206 | 6.6189% |
| choicespecs | 64755 | 6.4739% |
| leftovers | 46156 | 4.6144% |
| gyaradosite | 42189 | 4.2178% |
| charizarditex | 38602 | 3.8592% |
| electriumz | 38394 | 3.8384% |
| choiceband | 38376 | 3.8366% |
| groundiumz | 32189 | 3.2181% |
| normaliumz | 26101 | 2.6094% |
| wateriumz | 23718 | 2.3712% |
| mimikiumz | 23250 | 2.3244% |
| charizarditey | 21639 | 2.1634% |
| lifeorb | 20826 | 2.0821% |
| lopunnite | 19461 | 1.9456% |
| fairiumz | 18670 | 1.8665% |
| metagrossite | 17713 | 1.7709% |
| rockiumz | 17008 | 1.7004% |
| ghostiumz | 15824 | 1.5820% |
| assaultvest | 14770 | 1.4766% |
| psychiumz | 14728 | 1.4724% |
| flyiniumz | 13661 | 1.3658% |
| alakazite | 13054 | 1.3051% |
| dragoniumz | 12606 | 1.2603% |
| eviolite | 11989 | 1.1986% |
| venusaurite | 11934 | 1.1931% |
| steeliumz | 11700 | 1.1697% |
| berryjuice | 11493 | 1.1490% |
| blazikenite | 11228 | 1.1225% |
| fightiniumz | 10697 | 1.0694% |
| iciumz | 10481 | 1.0478% |
| weaknesspolicy | 10269 | 1.0266% |
| mawilite | 9747 | 0.9745% |
| firiumz | 8832 | 0.8830% |
| sitrusberry | 8764 | 0.8762% |
| airballoon | 8650 | 0.8648% |
| gardevoirite | 8583 | 0.8581% |
| grassiumz | 8116 | 0.8114% |
| scizorite | 7438 | 0.7436% |
| heracronite | 6997 | 0.6995% |
| diancite | 6939 | 0.6937% |
| tyranitarite | 6271 | 0.6269% |
| sablenite | 6262 | 0.6260% |
| lucarionite | 6236 | 0.6234% |
| medichamite | 6090 | 0.6088% |
| slowbronite | 5768 | 0.5767% |
| aggronite | 5661 | 0.5660% |
| gengarite | 5176 | 0.5175% |
| swampertite | 5152 | 0.5151% |
| babiriberry | 5058 | 0.5057% |
| mewniumz | 5046 | 0.5045% |
| lumberry | 4979 | 0.4978% |
| pinsirite | 4719 | 0.4718% |
| toxicorb | 4584 | 0.4583% |
| rockyhelmet | 4435 | 0.4434% |
| kommoniumz | 4339 | 0.4338% |
| blastoisinite | 4088 | 0.4087% |
| shellbell | 3887 | 0.3886% |
| salacberry | 3837 | 0.3836% |
| galladite | 3692 | 0.3691% |
| garchompite | 3395 | 0.3394% |
| flameorb | 3179 | 0.3178% |
| aguavberry | 2986 | 0.2985% |
| nothing | 2986 | 0.2985% |
| keeberry | 2977 | 0.2976% |
| altarianite | 2973 | 0.2972% |
| primariumz | 2874 | 0.2873% |
| poisoniumz | 2713 | 0.2712% |
| sceptilite | 2680 | 0.2679% |
| buginiumz | 2611 | 0.2610% |
| kingsrock | 2472 | 0.2471% |
| blacksludge | 2299 | 0.2298% |
| rindoberry | 2215 | 0.2214% |
| mentalherb | 2156 | 0.2155% |
| thickclub | 2124 | 0.2123% |
| widelens | 2102 | 0.2101% |
| banettite | 2086 | 0.2085% |
| shucaberry | 2070 | 0.2069% |
| beedrillite | 2021 | 0.2020% |
| whiteherb | 1970 | 0.1969% |
| liechiberry | 1947 | 0.1947% |
| quickclaw | 1756 | 0.1756% |
| focusband | 1681 | 0.1681% |
| figyberry | 1667 | 0.1667% |
| darkiniumz | 1612 | 0.1612% |
| absolite | 1606 | 0.1606% |
| occaberry | 1473 | 0.1473% |
| steelixite | 1444 | 0.1444% |
| latiasite | 1404 | 0.1404% |
| ampharosite | 1387 | 0.1387% |
| pidgeotite | 1348 | 0.1348% |
| lycaniumz | 1286 | 0.1286% |
| sharpedonite | 1286 | 0.1286% |
| brightpowder | 1245 | 0.1245% |
| cameruptite | 1224 | 0.1224% |
| habanberry | 1206 | 0.1206% |
| chestoberry | 1204 | 0.1204% |
| aerodactylite | 1153 | 0.1153% |
| iapapaberry | 1125 | 0.1125% |
| manectite | 1124 | 0.1124% |
| houndoominite | 1119 | 0.1119% |
| powerherb | 1080 | 0.1080% |
| expertbelt | 1062 | 0.1062% |
| latiosite | 1052 | 0.1052% |
| inciniumz | 927 | 0.0927% |
| lightball | 911 | 0.0911% |
| aloraichiumz | 898 | 0.0898% |
| abomasite | 842 | 0.0842% |
| blackglasses | 779 | 0.0779% |
| oranberry | 764 | 0.0764% |
| decidiumz | 708 | 0.0708% |
| snorliumz | 635 | 0.0635% |
| audinite | 614 | 0.0614% |
| nevermeltice | 609 | 0.0609% |
| normalgem | 603 | 0.0603% |
| chopleberry | 589 | 0.0589% |
| razorfang | 574 | 0.0574% |
| eeviumz | 562 | 0.0562% |
| petayaberry | 540 | 0.0540% |
| glalitite | 520 | 0.0520% |
| silkscarf | 513 | 0.0513% |
| scopelens | 441 | 0.0441% |
| safetygoggles | 425 | 0.0425% |
| metronome | 414 | 0.0414% |
| bigroot | 357 | 0.0357% |
| magoberry | 324 | 0.0324% |
| wikiberry | 318 | 0.0318% |
| colburberry | 317 | 0.0317% |
| adrenalineorb | 290 | 0.0290% |
| bindingband | 282 | 0.0282% |
| apicotberry | 193 | 0.0193% |
| dreadplate | 193 | 0.0193% |
| tapuniumz | 187 | 0.0187% |
| mysticwater | 187 | 0.0187% |
| shedshell | 147 | 0.0147% |
| flameplate | 144 | 0.0144% |
| damprock | 138 | 0.0138% |
| lightclay | 114 | 0.0114% |
| yacheberry | 101 | 0.0101% |
| chartiberry | 101 | 0.0101% |
| twistedspoon | 94 | 0.0094% |
| icicleplate | 92 | 0.0092% |
| razorclaw | 91 | 0.0091% |
| zoomlens | 70 | 0.0070% |
| wiseglasses | 56 | 0.0056% |
| miracleseed | 56 | 0.0056% |
| protectivepads | 54 | 0.0054% |
| grassyseed | 50 | 0.0050% |
| redcard | 50 | 0.0050% |
| marangaberry | 49 | 0.0049% |
| dragonfang | 45 | 0.0045% |
| ironball | 44 | 0.0044% |
| blackbelt | 43 | 0.0043% |
| souldew | 43 | 0.0043% |
| dracoplate | 39 | 0.0039% |
| poisonbarb | 37 | 0.0037% |
| laxincense | 35 | 0.0035% |
| wacanberry | 34 | 0.0034% |
| pikaniumz | 33 | 0.0033% |
| dousedrive | 29 | 0.0029% |
| kebiaberry | 26 | 0.0026% |
| ironplate | 25 | 0.0025% |
| muscleband | 24 | 0.0024% |
| magnet | 24 | 0.0024% |
| darkmemory | 24 | 0.0024% |
| fistplate | 23 | 0.0023% |
| absorbbulb | 23 | 0.0023% |
| cobaberry | 22 | 0.0022% |
| laggingtail | 22 | 0.0022% |
| electricseed | 20 | 0.0020% |
| mindplate | 18 | 0.0018% |
| destinyknot | 18 | 0.0018% |
| hardstone | 17 | 0.0017% |
| spookyplate | 17 | 0.0017% |
| luckypunch | 16 | 0.0016% |
| ganlonberry | 14 | 0.0014% |
| splashplate | 13 | 0.0013% |
| heatrock | 13 | 0.0013% |
| icyrock | 13 | 0.0013% |
| charcoal | 13 | 0.0013% |
| smoothrock | 10 | 0.0010% |
| earthplate | 9 | 0.0009% |
| firememory | 8 | 0.0008% |
| pechaberry | 8 | 0.0008% |
| roseliberry | 8 | 0.0008% |
| lansatberry | 8 | 0.0008% |
| pikashuniumz | 7 | 0.0007% |
| grassmemory | 7 | 0.0007% |
| leppaberry | 7 | 0.0007% |
| spelltag | 6 | 0.0006% |
| steelmemory | 6 | 0.0006% |
| psychicseed | 5 | 0.0005% |
| softsand | 4 | 0.0004% |
| passhoberry | 4 | 0.0004% |
| roseincense | 4 | 0.0004% |
| terrainextender | 4 | 0.0004% |
| toxicplate | 4 | 0.0004% |
| insectplate | 3 | 0.0003% |
| zapplate | 3 | 0.0003% |
| seaincense | 3 | 0.0003% |
| chilanberry | 3 | 0.0003% |
| sharpbeak | 2 | 0.0002% |
| chilldrive | 2 | 0.0002% |
| cellbattery | 2 | 0.0002% |
| burndrive | 2 | 0.0002% |
| pixieplate | 2 | 0.0002% |
| icememory | 2 | 0.0002% |
| starfberry | 2 | 0.0002% |
| diveball | 2 | 0.0002% |
| fairymemory | 2 | 0.0002% |
| metalcoat | 2 | 0.0002% |
| kasibberry | 2 | 0.0002% |
| persimberry | 1 | 0.0001% |
| quickpowder | 1 | 0.0001% |
| shockdrive | 1 | 0.0001% |
| electricmemory | 1 | 0.0001% |
| grepaberry | 1 | 0.0001% |
| meadowplate | 1 | 0.0001% |
| silverpowder | 1 | 0.0001% |
| masterball | 1 | 0.0001% |
| gripclaw | 0 | 0% |
| beastball | 0 | 0% |
| psychicmemory | 0 | 0% |
| adamantorb | 0 | 0% |
| solganiumz | 0 | 0% |
| oddincense | 0 | 0% |
| ultranecroziumz | 0 | 0% |
| mistyseed | 0 | 0% |
| electirizer | 0 | 0% |
| pokeball | 0 | 0% |
| hondewberry | 0 | 0% |
| skyplate | 0 | 0% |
| powerweight | 0 | 0% |
| blukberry | 0 | 0% |
| healball | 0 | 0% |
| nestball | 0 | 0% |
| watermemory | 0 | 0% |
| luminousmoss | 0 | 0% |
| stickybarb | 0 | 0% |
| payapaberry | 0 | 0% |
| metalpowder | 0 | 0% |
| quickball | 0 | 0% |
| powerbelt | 0 | 0% |
| tangaberry | 0 | 0% |
| bugmemory | 0 | 0% |
| mewtwonitex | 0 | 0% |
| ghostmemory | 0 | 0% |
| fightingmemory | 0 | 0% |
| ejectbutton | 0 | 0% |
| mewtwonitey | 0 | 0% |
| fullincense | 0 | 0% |
| deepseatooth | 0 | 0% |
| snowball | 0 | 0% |
| flyingmemory | 0 | 0% |
| stoneplate | 0 | 0% |
| waveincense | 0 | 0% |
| greatball | 0 | 0% |
| powerlens | 0 | 0% |
| premierball | 0 | 0% |
| groundmemory | 0 | 0% |
| stick | 0 | 0% |
| powerband | 0 | 0% |
| helixfossil | 0 | 0% |
| floatstone | 0 | 0% |
| ringtarget | 0 | 0% |
| cheriberry | 0 | 0% |
| dragonmemory | 0 | 0% |
| rarebone | 0 | 0% |
| rockincense | 0 | 0% |
| aspearberry | 0 | 0% |
+-------------------+------------+------------------+Out of 1000342 used Pokémon, 310413 or 31.031% used a z-item.
Out of 1000342 used Pokémon, 169337 or 16.928% used a choice item.
Out of 1000342 used Pokémon, 6420 or 0.642% used a 50% healing berry.
Out of 1000342 used Pokémon, 13229 or 1.322% used a resist berry.
Out of 1000342 used Pokémon, 6531 or 0.653% used a pinch boost berry.
Total battles probably recorded: 166724
I am genuinely surprised that fit in one post...
Honestly when I started playing gen 7, I despised z moves. I thought they just made good mons better and didn't encourage diversity. I started playing this tier because I loved using what ever stupid strat I could think of and trying to make it work. I thought z moves would limit my ability to do so. But as im starting to play more often, im starting to release the huge amount of diversity z moves bring to the meta. Now yes, I will acknowledge that mons like koko and mimikyu are stupid good. They're annoying and are pretty damn common. But at the same time, they encourage unique and diverse strats to counter them. You can see common counters such as golem to beat a koko, but you can also use mons such as skarm to bait them in. Ive only been laddering for a few weeks and ive already seen some pretty crazy counters.
I think there is a simple answer to this. It encourages the usage of different mons and different sets. I've been playing since early in gen 6 and never in my wildest dreams would I see mons such as donphan, magnezone, or snorlax so high. They were pretty good, but I would never have considered them top tier threats. Mons like this were relegated to niches such as curse counter lax, custap/specs zone, and endeavor ice shard donphan (shoutouts to Lmni). Now I won't deny that z moves dominate the meta. If your team doesn't have at least one z move on it, it most likely will lose. However, I don't think a meta without z moves would be much better. You'll see way more stall oriented games and mons who dominated last gen would see a huge reappearance. And while I love gen 6, I don't think we should make gen 7 a repeat of it. I'm not convinced banning z moves would be the best course of action for this meta. I like the way the meta is now and I'm convinced that it needs any drastic changes. However, I think this is a community decision and im not against the idea of a suspect test.
but why is that a bad thing? 1v1 wasn't made to be a 50 turn meta. The fundamental idea of the tier is having 1 mon vs 1 mon. Naturally, this means that games are going to be short. Besides, longer games often don't come down to skill our outplaying your opponent. They come down to sleep turns, rolls, and crits. This is literally the polar opposite of a competitive meta.
While this is definitely true, I think the mons that offer this amount of power and versatility are too few and far between to consider banning all zmoves. You talked about lax, koko, and lando. If you wanted too talk about more threats, the ones I could think of would be mimikyu, (this is debatable) and magearna. These mons are great mons, but there just aren't that many. Also, the problem I see with this point is that often times, you can make a decently educated guess about what stone the mon is going to run. With magearna, for example, if the team isn't great against zygarde, most likely it will be farium. If the lando team doesn't have a venu check, its going to flynium. While I understand that you can never be completely sure,this is 1v1. In 1v1, you're never going to be totally sure about what set a mon is going to run. Unpredictability is almost fundamental in this tier.
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Well since there's still time,
My thoughts on z-moves:
-Why ban?
Removing a one turn, unpredictable nuke would certainly put much less pressure on making bulky EV spreads. It would also stop status z-moves, which can turn something defensively frail like Blissey and turn it into one of the bulkiest mons out there with z-charm.
"They make the meta fun"
It's fun to nuke an opponent but it can take the competitiveness out completely, just like Jirachi and Kyurem-Black did.
I bet Mimikyu won't be as unhealthy with a ban.
-Why no ban?
There is defense to keep these, but openings for contradiction:
"Some pokemon would drop in the VR, and some would exit completely"
Rather than worry about this, I think we should allow this possibility; over a hundred mons who have almost no chance right now could probably have some impact. A personal example on the ladder is Seismitoad, who got eaten by z-moves but maybe it could have more of a chance if they were not present at all.
"They are just a game mechanic. Same with accuracy lowering moves"
This is not 6v6, this is 1v1. There is no need for prediction to utilize these.
"It keeps the metagame unpredictable"
So does choice scarf and coverage moves. It would actually make the meta MORE unpredictable because the mons who were reliant on a z-move to win now have to adopt a new playstyle, or come up with a similar playstyle.
"Good pokemon, like Gyarados or Venusaur won't have checks"
Absolutely not. I'm sure all Rotom-A's and other electric types can rise up and can be able to gain tons of momentum from this.
Think about how many psychic types can enter the ladder (Beheeyem lol) and check Venusaur.
If something goes crazy/becomes unhealthy we can suspect it.
Final thoughts:
Ban. There is not much reason to keep these. Remember ORAS 1v1? No Z-moves. Remember BW 1v1? No Z-Moves, and Kyurem-Black is out of here now. We can make workshops and stuff to test the new mons, think about it.
Thanks, and have a good day.
(Once again, this was slightly rushed and some of my points may be weird).
My thoughts on z-moves:
-Why ban?
Removing a one turn, unpredictable nuke would certainly put much less pressure on making bulky EV spreads. It would also stop status z-moves, which can turn something defensively frail like Blissey and turn it into one of the bulkiest mons out there with z-charm.
"They make the meta fun"
It's fun to nuke an opponent but it can take the competitiveness out completely, just like Jirachi and Kyurem-Black did.
I bet Mimikyu won't be as unhealthy with a ban.
-Why no ban?
There is defense to keep these, but openings for contradiction:
"Some pokemon would drop in the VR, and some would exit completely"
Rather than worry about this, I think we should allow this possibility; over a hundred mons who have almost no chance right now could probably have some impact. A personal example on the ladder is Seismitoad, who got eaten by z-moves but maybe it could have more of a chance if they were not present at all.
"They are just a game mechanic. Same with accuracy lowering moves"
This is not 6v6, this is 1v1. There is no need for prediction to utilize these.
"It keeps the metagame unpredictable"
So does choice scarf and coverage moves. It would actually make the meta MORE unpredictable because the mons who were reliant on a z-move to win now have to adopt a new playstyle, or come up with a similar playstyle.
"Good pokemon, like Gyarados or Venusaur won't have checks"
Absolutely not. I'm sure all Rotom-A's and other electric types can rise up and can be able to gain tons of momentum from this.
Think about how many psychic types can enter the ladder (Beheeyem lol) and check Venusaur.
If something goes crazy/becomes unhealthy we can suspect it.
Final thoughts:
Ban. There is not much reason to keep these. Remember ORAS 1v1? No Z-moves. Remember BW 1v1? No Z-Moves, and Kyurem-Black is out of here now. We can make workshops and stuff to test the new mons, think about it.
Thanks, and have a good day.
(Once again, this was slightly rushed and some of my points may be weird).
...
rotom will just about never be good even with the removal of zmoves
(also what is rotom a, and if you mean rotom W, it benefits immensely from zmoves, allowing it to have a niche, and if you mean rotom heat, it still auto-loses to gyara)
also "not much reason to keep these" really is not a good reason to remove anything, when there isnt much of a reason to remove them either. along with the fact that just saying "oras 1v1 and bw 1v1 didnt have z moves so why should this one" is also a quite bad reason for ban. Every generation has new things. saying things like that justifies this statement:
"remember oras 1v1 and bw 1v1? they didnt have the tapus, so we should ban them."
and this statement makes literally no sense.
im not saying im for or against the ban, but please, at least make the posts sensible if youre going to show an opinion, otherwise it'll just lower the overall quality of posts in this thread, causing readers to lose interest when they see some... silly things like this... and in a way humiliates those who do put tons of their time into their posts. This is a noticeable trend that I've been seeing recently please clean this up everyone... i know i don't run this but it's paining me to see our forum turn into this.
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so with that logic, shouldn't we ban scarfs and zards? After all, with zard its hard to tell which mon or which set it is. Unpredictability is in literally every tier. For example, in ubers, a pdon could be rocks, eruption, dual dance, twave etc. Yet it's still around. I think banning something because you don't know what its going to run is a flawed argument. Even without zmoves, theres going to be times where you have no idea what set your opponent is running. You have to adapt and think about what mon youre going to use to prep for a certain set. While I understand the argument that they're too unpredictable, I don't think its correct. As stated before, there are ways to tell the z move a mun is running and as Mace argued before, it's often harder to tell a zard set than a z move.
I think this is flat out wrong. Mons like gyara and venu will be better. Theres no doubt about it. They can't use (obviously) zmoves and often times their biggest checks are z mons themselves. With the exclusion of z moves, the gap between the low and the high tiers will exponentially increase. Also, without z moves I think the entire meta would be stall oriented. Mons like whimms, chansey and jumpluff would see significantly higer usage. As I've said before, I believe in the idea of 1v1 being a short meta. The longer the games are, the more the games come down to rng and luck rather than skill and prep. If 1v1 wants to become a big meta, I think making it even more rng based is the wrong way to do it.
The problem is, you don't give any valid reason as to why we should ban z moves. If you're going to post about z moves, post about how they're uncompetitive and make the meta weaker as a whole. Don't just say that you want to use mons that are now obsolete due to their inclusion. We shouldn't ban zmoves due to the fact that they don't let seismitoad shine. If we do ban them, it should be because they create a unhealthy balance in the meta.
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Ok checking back on--
How Z-Moves work + the situation:
Rather than call it a "one turn nuke," a Z-Move allows a user holding a Z-Crystal corresponding to the type of one of their moves to add +80 to +100 power to attacking moves and an additional effect to status moves. Some signature Z-Moves have special effects and more power of their own, such as Kommo-O's Clangorous Soulblaze. It can be used once per battle and it has proven that it could turn the tide of a match in a 6v6 format. However, in 1v1, where most battles last 1-4 turns, the mechanic gives almost any user immediate power and the fact that they can turn weak coverage moves into stronger attacks. Watch this reenactment of why I was all like "BAN BAN BAN," http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-723153612. Yes, people get salty sometimes.
Aside from coverage Z-Moves that are walled more often than not, its the fact that STAB is the reason behind the actual "nuke." This is just an example, but it's basically using the move V-Create, only for one turn and without drawbacks (Or even self-destruct). However, given this knowledge that STAB Z-Moves are much stronger than coverage Z-Moves, it is rather easy to predict the users. For instance, Landorus-T likes to hold Flyinium Z and Groundium Z, and Golem likes Rockium Z and Groundium Z.
Consider this fact also; on high ladder, most opponents will choose STAB Z-Moves and almost never coverage Z-Moves. Low ladder is a completely different story, with that Hydro Vortex Arbok that you saw in the replay. Remember that any decision we make affects the whole spectrum of the ladder, not just the upper portions.
So are they broken or are they not?
I decided to ladder yesterday, making a journey from 1300 to 1500. For some reason, I didn't see too many Z-Moves. I saw lots of Gyarados, lots of Metagross, several Mimikyus, Sableyes, and Mawiles. However, the thing I saw most was Tapu Koko. Koko is one of the best pokemon in the VR and it's incredibly versatile and strong, thanks to a STAB Gigavolt Havoc in Electric Terrain, which is one of the strongest moves ever like Mega Charizard Y's Blast Burn in the sun.
Let's talk more about the VR (I'm bringing back those two points again). Some pokemon ARE ranked due to their usage of Z-Moves being noteworthy. Some pokemon ARE NOT ranked because they are outclassed, have low versatility and poor stats, or they have a hard time faring in the metagame. We should NOT ban Z-Moves just to make the "kings" drop or the "pawns" rise; the metagame changes significantly only every generation, because the discovery of new tricks can only let a pokemon rise 1 or 2 spots, or not at all.
(Better luck next gen?)
Another thing mentioned was the fact that some stall or tanky pokemon are checked by Z-Moves. Chansey, for example, can render a special attacker almost useless with its incredible defensive capabilities. Here's what I mean: 252+ SpA Primarina Hydro Vortex (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 225-265 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 91.7% chance to 3HKO. Physical Z-Moves are usually its kryptonite though. It is not very common from what I saw yesterday, but it can show up. If Z-Moves were banned, it is still checked by Knock Off, Substitute, and Taunt. SubSeeders are checked by multi-hit moves, faster pokemon with super effective attacks, and Grass types, but they could still sub on most "Z-turns," and Jumpluff could even put you to sleep first.
Conclusion
I was forced to change my mind to DNB, well, because:
-Spending good time on the ladder, specifically taking note on what was present and which items were used. Z-Moves aren't necessarily everywhere, but it was very easy to predict the users (Landorus-T and especially Koko)
-I was tilted over http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-723153612 weeks ago (Reenactment, not the actual match)
-There's no reason to ban these other than to let frailer pokemon enter the tier, which isn't a very good argument
-Even with Z-Moves, games still last like 2-4 turns unless a typing/defensive disadvantage from either side is exploited
How are these "overcentralizing" when I saw more Mega Evolution and Choice items?
(This was NOT rushed, maybe I should of waited last time)
Thanks for reading this.
OK I obviously said something wrong here. I should NOT be doing this again, but I'll establish stronger points. If this fails again then I'll just unwatch this and focus on analyses/resources + noms.
How Z-Moves work + the situation:
Rather than call it a "one turn nuke," a Z-Move allows a user holding a Z-Crystal corresponding to the type of one of their moves to add +80 to +100 power to attacking moves and an additional effect to status moves. Some signature Z-Moves have special effects and more power of their own, such as Kommo-O's Clangorous Soulblaze. It can be used once per battle and it has proven that it could turn the tide of a match in a 6v6 format. However, in 1v1, where most battles last 1-4 turns, the mechanic gives almost any user immediate power and the fact that they can turn weak coverage moves into stronger attacks. Watch this reenactment of why I was all like "BAN BAN BAN," http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-723153612. Yes, people get salty sometimes.
Aside from coverage Z-Moves that are walled more often than not, its the fact that STAB is the reason behind the actual "nuke." This is just an example, but it's basically using the move V-Create, only for one turn and without drawbacks (Or even self-destruct). However, given this knowledge that STAB Z-Moves are much stronger than coverage Z-Moves, it is rather easy to predict the users. For instance, Landorus-T likes to hold Flyinium Z and Groundium Z, and Golem likes Rockium Z and Groundium Z.
Consider this fact also; on high ladder, most opponents will choose STAB Z-Moves and almost never coverage Z-Moves. Low ladder is a completely different story, with that Hydro Vortex Arbok that you saw in the replay. Remember that any decision we make affects the whole spectrum of the ladder, not just the upper portions.
So are they broken or are they not?
I decided to ladder yesterday, making a journey from 1300 to 1500. For some reason, I didn't see too many Z-Moves. I saw lots of Gyarados, lots of Metagross, several Mimikyus, Sableyes, and Mawiles. However, the thing I saw most was Tapu Koko. Koko is one of the best pokemon in the VR and it's incredibly versatile and strong, thanks to a STAB Gigavolt Havoc in Electric Terrain, which is one of the strongest moves ever like Mega Charizard Y's Blast Burn in the sun.
Let's talk more about the VR (I'm bringing back those two points again). Some pokemon ARE ranked due to their usage of Z-Moves being noteworthy. Some pokemon ARE NOT ranked because they are outclassed, have low versatility and poor stats, or they have a hard time faring in the metagame. We should NOT ban Z-Moves just to make the "kings" drop or the "pawns" rise; the metagame changes significantly only every generation, because the discovery of new tricks can only let a pokemon rise 1 or 2 spots, or not at all.
(Better luck next gen?)
Another thing mentioned was the fact that some stall or tanky pokemon are checked by Z-Moves. Chansey, for example, can render a special attacker almost useless with its incredible defensive capabilities. Here's what I mean: 252+ SpA Primarina Hydro Vortex (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 225-265 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 91.7% chance to 3HKO. Physical Z-Moves are usually its kryptonite though. It is not very common from what I saw yesterday, but it can show up. If Z-Moves were banned, it is still checked by Knock Off, Substitute, and Taunt. SubSeeders are checked by multi-hit moves, faster pokemon with super effective attacks, and Grass types, but they could still sub on most "Z-turns," and Jumpluff could even put you to sleep first.
Conclusion
I was forced to change my mind to DNB, well, because:
-Spending good time on the ladder, specifically taking note on what was present and which items were used. Z-Moves aren't necessarily everywhere, but it was very easy to predict the users (Landorus-T and especially Koko)
-I was tilted over http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-723153612 weeks ago (Reenactment, not the actual match)
-There's no reason to ban these other than to let frailer pokemon enter the tier, which isn't a very good argument
-Even with Z-Moves, games still last like 2-4 turns unless a typing/defensive disadvantage from either side is exploited
How are these "overcentralizing" when I saw more Mega Evolution and Choice items?
(This was NOT rushed, maybe I should of waited last time)
Thanks for reading this.
I think it's funny how banning scarf always ends up looking like a reasonably good idea
I agree with this.
It's a fact that:
- Pokémon that use Z-Moves as their main point of viability use Z-Moves to be good
- Pokémon that don't use Z-Moves... Don't use Z-Moves
With these two points you can quickly deduct that those who don't use, or I guess don't need, Z-Moves to be good, will get a relative rise in viability and strength compared to all the Z-Move users that would be irrelevant or less viable after a Z-Move ban.
Your points on Z-Moves have been very good, but I have two problems with this particular one. First of all I don't see stall becoming overcentralizing after a Z-Move ban. Setup offense, choice items and weakness-policy-like stallbreakers
Secondly I don't think you should base your opinions too much on predictions of the future metagame, but seeing as you don't solely base your opinions on them it's fine. I'm just putting this here so people don't go saying "Ban Z-Moves because I want stall".
Pro-ban in a nutshell, and the sole reason I'm refusing to consider a Z-Move ban. If you want to ban Z-Moves you gotta come up with something better than "They are broken"
ooo another post
This is very well put, people seem to ignore the fact that coverage Z-Moves (however random and unreasonable they may be) have a tendency to not pick up KOs. And if they do: You're more often than not dealing with a viable set rather than a "random coverage Z-Move"
I'm not saying I want to ban Koko
I'd like to take this moment to ask if anyone sees Pokémon that are problematic due to their Z-Move usage. My current list consists of Tapu Koko and Dragonite (please don't go comment I'm wrong on either of these, it's just a list ;-; you can complain when/if I post about them)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1.3587523/post-7721859 items usage stats show they're definitely used a lot, but their usage is indeed exaggarated.
Conclusion
These two posts, along with the earlier post by PenguinKnees have shifted my perspective on Z-Moves from "/me shrugs" to "DNB"
I added a conclussion to make the post look less bad, and it still looks bad
Also here's your reminder to post about what you think should change in 1v1, the council can't make proper decisions without you!
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