Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[LRXC]

Part 2! More extremely important and insightful metagame discussion and analysis

 

[Felucia]

hi I'm just here to talk about gloom

Hide

Gloom @ Eviolite
Ability: Stench
EVs: 240 HP / 228 Def / 40 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Infestation / Confide
- Sludge Bomb
- Leech Seed

I was told Confide beats things, if it doesn't that's on Nalei not on me. Infestation is there to stall stall harder than stall stalls you. Turns out Leech Seed, Sludge Bomb psn, and Infestation really add up

 

[Nalei]

hi I'm just here to talk about gloom

Hide

Gloom @ Eviolite
Ability: Stench
EVs: 240 HP / 228 Def / 40 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Infestation / Confide
- Sludge Bomb
- Leech Seed

I was told Confide beats things, if it doesn't that's on Nalei not on me. Infestation is there to stall stall harder than stall stalls you. Turns out Leech Seed, Sludge Bomb psn, and Infestation really add up

hi I'm just here to say that I've discovered that confide is good for beating sylveon except for the part where strength sap heals nothing so you actually need both a specially defensive spread and synthesis to beat sylveon reliably oops~

also charm beats crustle, giga drain beats trick rotom-w and ice beam blastoise, leech seed is good but non-mandatory. use gloom please and thank you

 

[superstrike66]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1267810302713671680

Just a heads up, the HAs for the Galarian starters have been released

 

[lancert]

Yo, I'd like to talk about something I said last time that didn't get a clear answer from the staff. Indeed, the subject I had talked about was Darm-G, which has managed to "centralize" the current metagame, and I think that the DLC that is about to arrive is far from finding solutions to prevent it from increasing its development.
This time, I will try to be clearer by using the current VR to prove its full potential to defeat more than we imagine.
(The "W" in blue means he's with a band set.)

​

potential movesets:

Darmanitan-Galar @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Superpower/ Stone Edge
- Flare Blitz
- Giga Impact

Darmanitan-Galar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 16 HP / 236 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
- Superpower

​

​

S Rank
Primarina - L & W weakness policy is used with a percentage of 27% compared to 13% chilan berry, so the majority wins.

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar - W & L
Sylveon - L & W

A+ Rank
Dracovish - L & W
Dragapult - W & L

A Rank
Crustle - L

A- Rank
Arcanine - L & W
Corsola-Galar - L
Corviknight - W
Haxorus - L
Mandibuzz - W
Rotom-Wash - L & W
Sawk - L
Whimsicott - W

B+ Rank
Aromatisse - L
Avalugg - L
Diggersby - W
Hydreigon - W & L
Kommo-o - L & W
Kyurem - W
Rotom-Heat - L & W
Snorlax - L & W
Togekiss - W & L
Zeraora - W & L

B Rank
Aegislash - L & W
Celebi - W
Centiskorch - W
Chandelure - W
Cinderace - W & L
Conkeldurr - L & W
Darmanitan -
Durant - W & L
Gastrodon - L
Incineroar - L & W
Rhyperior - L & W
Rillaboom - W
Silvally (Water, Poison, Steel...) L
Steelix - L
Tyranitar - W

B- Rank
Bewear - W
Blastoise - L
Dracozolt - W
Duraludon - L & W
Gardevoir - L & W
Gengar - W
Golisopod - L & W
Goodra - W
Grimmsnarl - L
Gyarados - L & W
Keldeo - L
Milotic - L
Venusaur - W

C+ Rank
Excadrill - W
Ferrothorn - W
Meowstic - L
Ninetales - W & L
Rotom-Mow - W
Terrakion - W & L
Throh - L & W
Togedemaru - L
Toxapex - W
Toxtricity - W
Type: Null - L & W
Weezing-Galar - L & W

C Rank
Alcremie - L & W
Appletun - W
Braviary - W
Clefable - L & W
Cloyster - L & W
Cofagrigus - L
Copperajah - W
Crawdaunt - W
Dubwool - L
Gigalith - L
Hippowdon - W
Hitmonlee - L
Inteleon - W & L
Malamar - L & W
Mamoswine - W
Ninetales-Alola - W
Obstagoon - W
Reuniclus - L & W
Scrafty - L & W
Umbreon - L & W
Vaporeon - L

C- Rank
Araquanid - W
Bisharp - W
Charizard - W & L
Cobalion - W & L
Drifblim - W
Espeon - W
Eiscue - W
Hatterene - W
Ludicolo - W
Pyukumuku - L
Seismitoad - L
Sirfetch'd - L
Torkoal - L
Tsareena - W
Virizion - W & L
Weavile - W

D Rank
Bellossom - W
Drampa - W
Mudsdale - W
Orbeetle - W
Quagsire - L
Sudowoodo - L
Trevenant - W
Vikavolt - W
Wishiwashi - L

Yep, according to my calcs, only a scarf darm-g manages to defeat 56 mons out of a total of 107, that's almost half and deserves to be questioned. Now, with a band set it's 74 that he manages to defeat, and if I count among what will be viable, it's 89/123!
I think I've done the trick on this mon which has a huge potential here but what will happen to him after this post?

​

 

[Smajet]

Arcanine - L & W

Jolly Band Darm-G does not reliably beat any decent Arcanine set. To beat Arcanine with your Band set, you have to:
1. Be against Band/LO. (You lose to stall.)
2. Win the speed tie.
3. Either hit Giga and get an 81.3% roll (Total probability is about 73.1%.) or run and hit Stone Edge.
Yes, a 40% chance to beat some sets with a move you don't always run is very reliable.

 

[clerica]

Hiya! I heard that libero is finally being freed and am incredibly excited like you all so I figured I should make a post on it because this is gonna be epic.

First of all, cinderace is gonna be clean now that libero is being added. No longer is everyone's favorite red rabbit an underwhelming weakling! What I expect to see is a massive jump on the VR for this mon and some new counterplay like kebia prim (at least until dlc comes). Below I will include some sets that try to show how useful this could be. Keep in note some are absurd or silly but I am doing this to try to show some potential mus it could gain.

Basic Band

Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Pyro Ball
- Giga Impact

This will probably be a common set when it's first released. This set absolutely nukes and can beat prim with either gunk shot or giga impact although you have to read the set once prim starts running kebia. This could likely be optimized but it will be incredibly strong

Basic Scarf

Cinderace @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Pyro Ball
- Giga Impact

This will likely also be common until it gets optimized. It is also incredibly strong but is fast enough to outspeed almost anything in the meta

100% beats prim

Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Libero
EVs: 16 HP / 184 Atk / 220 SpD / 88 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Giga Impact

Tanks non specs hydro cannon and kills with gunk. If they are specs gunk kills anyways could be a niche set like spdef vish

Ok time for the brazy shit

Haxorus beater

Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Libero
EVs: 8 HP / 188 Atk / 224 Def / 88 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Giga Impact
Haxorus will probably be seen as a cinderace beater because it can tank scarf and kill most band sets. However, this set eats adamant scarf earthquake and kos back as well as outspeeding haxorus (and hydreigon as a nice touch) to kill banded sets.

Wait pult?

Cinderace @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 68 SpD
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Sucker Punch
- Endure
- Taunt

Ok this one is kinda silly to be honest but it beats pult and I guess celebi? Protect t1 to figure out their set, taunt on sub pult into sucker spam, and sucker into endure into sucker for the choice ones. Note: vs band pult there is a 6.3% chance you lose if its 252+ because I was 4 evs too many :c

chilan

Cinderace @ Chilan Berry
Ability: Libero
EVs: 200 Atk / 56 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Pyro Ball
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch

Should win you the cinderace ditto once most of the time by just clicking high jump kick on the giga impact. Note: this loses if they win the speed tie and click anything not named giga impact but this beats scarf and all that.

Other potentially cool things

Cinderace has access to the following as typing options:

• fire
• steel
• flying
• psychic
• dark,
• bug
• fighting
• normal
• ghost,
• poison
• electric
• ground

What I expect to see is a lot of poison, dark, and fighting usage because they have the most viable move options at the moment. I do think seeing some kind of psychic set could be cool. Other moves I am interested to see used are counter, bounce, and agility although they likely will be terrible. Either way I am excited to see what libero does to the meta because I have been waiting a long time for this.

OH ALSO s/o's to Potatochan and stableprince569 for helping me. I can't ev shit so it was incredibly nice of them to help me with this.

in b4 all this is obsolete by dlc

​

 

[Potatochan]

Arcanine - L & W

you lose to stall, which has more than 50% usage

Kyurem - W

scarf loses to chople and band loses to scarf, arguably the 2 best sets rn

Celebi - W

Choice Specs 72.312% majority wins, L for band

Chandelure - W

Choice Scarf 41.800%, Choice Specs 36.998% majority wins, L for band

Conkeldurr - L & W

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan-Galar: 440-522 (125.3 - 148.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
hard L for both sets

Durant - W & L

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan-Galar: 471-555 (134.1 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
is your gameplan to dodge?

Rhyperior - L & W

252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 334-396 (76.9 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
L for both sets

Bewear - W

252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 140 Def Bewear: 337-397 (88.4 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
??????????????? did you even calc this shit
(icicle crash is darm's strongest option vs bewear because it doesn't make contact while blitz/superpower do)

Dracozolt - W

Choice Scarf 61.234% majority wins, L for band

Gengar - W

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darmanitan-Galar: 376-444 (107.1 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
L for band

Ninetales - W & L

endure disable ninetales beats both

Throh - L & W

252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Giga Impact vs. 216 HP / 172+ Def Throh: 335-395 (77 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Toxapex - W

252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 228+ Def Toxapex: 188-222 (62.4 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
L for scarf

Weezing-Galar - L & W

252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Weezing-Galar: 185-218 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
?????????
and even if you had eq on your band set:
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Weezing-Galar: 248-292 (74.4 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ninetales-Alola - W

endure disable wins

Cobalion - W & L

252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
i've never seen a cobalion set but this is easily bulkable

Drifblim - W

lose to endure disable, literally the only set??

Weavile - W

Leftovers 43.474%, Choice Scarf 27.037% majority wins, L for band (lefties is pressure stall)

Mudsdale - W

252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 232 HP / 176+ Def Mudsdale: 338-398 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
L for scarf

 

[Mubs]

The Case for Unbanning Marshadow
Disclaimer: Before you clown on me, I am referring to unbanning it when DLC drops.

Also, here's some music to listen to:

​

Mentioned this in hangar during prehome but forgot to bring it up here.

As we approach the First DLC, I want to propose Marshadow’s unban, for a few reasons:

1. Generation 8 is a completely different metagame.​

I think it’s pretty much universally agreed on why Marshadow was banned last generation, and for those who do not remember why or just were not part of 1v1 back then, let me just paraphrase Elo Bandit:

Marshadow’s stat-stealing move in Spectral thief, which turned into Soul Stealing Seven Star Strike with Marshadium Z utilized its perfect coverage and offensive tools in Substitute and Bulk Up to beat approximately 75% of the metagame. Those it could not beat simply lost to alternative lure sets such as Assault Vest and Roseli Berry.

• Without the Boost that Z-Moves gave, Marshadow is left with a significantly weaker Ghost STAB in a metagame infested with Fairy-types. And then you add an Expansion Pass which is bound to add more counters to the list.

Of course, no one can be sure with a pokemon that's hardly been playtested, but still...

2. There's hardly any reason not to unban it with DLC drops.​

• No one really knows for sure whether Marshadow will be broken or not. Every practice single metric used outside of a ladder has been generally ineffective at gauging the viability of Pokemon on our banlist, seen by how previous Pokemon such as Darkrai and Zekrom never reached a full conclusion.
  • Just because you +Marshadow in a roomtour doesn’t mean people will get a good idea whether its fit to be in the meta; People generally just don’t put the effort in a nonladder environment to test out a Pokemon generally because no one wants to put the effort to optimize it.
• Melmetal was a new Pokemon introduced in HOME without Box-Legendary stats. Generally, most of the community didn’t think it was going to be as banworthy as it turned out to be, and they would have never have known if it was never initially freed, so a conclusion was reached. Why can’t we do the same with Marshadow?

Even if it is broken, there's very little downside e to letting Marshadow free on ladder to be voted on by council 2-3 days later. Here's my general thoughts.

• Any reasonable timeframe in which Marshadow is allowed in the metagame does not interfere with either of our major tournaments. 1v1LT is Pre-DLC locked and World Cup is a month away from the drop + 3 week pools give time to prep if it's banned closer to that period.
• If Marshadow is freed and then banned, we finally have some conclusion to the question on whether the Ghost can be in SS 1v1.
• If it’s balanced in 1v1, that's one more option people have to teambuild with.

I hope y'all will hear me out. As always, thanks for reading and have a nice day.

 

[Gym Socks!]

Giving Jirachi Another Chance
This is based off of Mubs Marshadow post.. I think Jirachi deserves another chance after Dlc drop!​

After Jirachi was un-justly banned following the mimi suspect it became a meta made up of solely Fairies before Cinderace stepped in ofc (which will most likely be banned in the following few weeks). Jirachi will not only act as a anti fairy check but will also be less potent with the large mass of fire types and other mons like slowbro around. This would probably make Jirachi somewhere around A class at most imo which definitely warrants a good reason to unban it and see how it develops. This post totally wasn’t because I want to run Specs Jirachi again or anything.

 

[zioziotrip]

View attachment 252514
Giving Jirachi Another Chance​

Haha, no.

While I do agree Marshadow is worth looking at in some capacity (albeit Mub’s “why not” logic doesn’t really hold water) Jirachi should not be looked at for an unban, or at the very least mons such as Marshadow and Necrozoma should be looked at beforehand.

I think the vast majority of returning mons deal w/ Rachi any better than our current pool and Cinder checking it doesn’t mean jack or shit, one good check is not enough. Another point I’d like to hop on is it checking the dominant fairies, just because a mon beats the best doesn’t mean it’s a good presence for the tier. Rachi was banned for how poor of an influence it was, there was basically no perfect checks. The versatility of Rachi let it beat absolutely everything with very few exceptions and this was ridiculous to build around, honestly I don’t understand someone who has played in a meta w/ Rachi can think it would be fine for the tier. It’s already insane on its own and then you have to consider the fact that it can cheese so many mons w/ a few 60%s its inherently busted and where Toge has a lack of speed and underwhelming movepool, Rachi has an incredibly good typing+great speed tier+insane movepool+Serene Grace.

TL;DR: Jirachi should remain banned. Marshadow and Necrozoma should be looked at, not saying anything concrete yet I will make an OTR post looking in-depth how those mons would fare.

PS. Cinderace is not broken. Don’t expect a QB anytime soon.

 

[RADU]

View attachment 252514
Giving Jirachi Another Chance
This is based off of Mubs Marshadow post.. I think Jirachi deserves another chance after Dlc drop!​

After Jirachi was un-justly banned following the mimi suspect it became a meta made up of solely Fairies before Cinderace stepped in ofc (which will most likely be banned in the following few weeks). Jirachi will not only act as a anti fairy check but will also be less potent with the large mass of fire types and other mons like slowbro around. This would probably make Jirachi somewhere around A class at most imo which definitely warrants a good reason to unban it and see how it develops. This post totally wasn’t because I want to run Specs Jirachi again or anything.

HELL noooooo I hope you're joking on this one man.
Serene Grace is just extremely uncompetitive of an ability, if Togekiss was any stronger even that would be ban-worthy. Cinderace was just as much of a check to Jirachi as it is now, except now it has a Scarf set that doesn't get flinched and is like one rank better, but that has 0 reason to give it another chance.
Bro the Pokemon was quickbanned do you know what the implications of this are? The ENTIRE community was looking forward to Jirachi getting banned, not only did it agree with it. The metagame is so much better without it in the tier.
You talk about this "large mass" of Fire types but we're only getting stuff like Volcarona (you need one zen flinch to win) and Blaziken (dies to zen altogether and doesn't outspeed at +1). You also mention mons like Slowbro but like... have you forgotten about Trick-Rest?? The thing that would let it beat every stall threat as well as beating a lot of shit altogether?
I strictly do not believe Jirachi and/or Mimikyu would EVER be given a second chance these mons are just made wrong with a strictly unfair ability for both mons that would require a stupid amount of meta shifting for them to be even slightly acceptable.

 

[CashKP]

Sorry for a short post but I think we should wait to see what even drops with DLC before we talk about retests and freeing things.

We still dont have a final list of things coming in the first DLC and until we have it we dont need to speculate about which banned mons need to come back.

That being said, free Melmetal.

 

[Notater]

On the subject of post-DLC unbans, I feel that the meta should be allowed to settle first before any unbans are considered. That being said, I feel that potential retests of Mimikyu, Jirachi, Necrozma, and/or Kyurem-Black could be in order depending on the scope of power creep.

Mimikyu: While controversial, I feel that with so many new threats joining the picture and with the rise of Cinderace and Primarina, both of which do very well against Mimikyu (the former pretty much hard countering it while the latter only fears a potential Choice Band Mimikyu), it's not entirely impossible that Mimikyu could turn out to be worthy of a retest in the somewhat distant future.

Jirachi: Given the pretty much universal desire for this to be banned and how it just dominated the metagame, I'd be much less comfortable with a retest of Jirachi, but that being said, in metagames with far more powerful Pokemon such as Generation VII Jirachi has proven to be a fine if unimpressive Pokemon. While the advent of stall sets this generation might change this, it's still possible the metagame may reach a point where Jirachi could fit in without warping the metagame around itself.

Necrozma: This I feel is the most likely candidate for a retest. Its ban in the first place was largely a result of a low-power-level metagame, and with new threats through DLC this effect will be mitigated somewhat. I could easily see this fitting into a post-DLC metagame, although again development without any retests should happen first.

Kyurem-Black: While Dragon Dance might seem to make this Pokemon nigh uncounterable, the number of viable Steel and Fairy types in the metagame, as well as the specific rise of Pokemon like Cinderace which should have the capability to do well against it, and the influx of potential checks like Magnezone (if running Air Balloon) I feel that while a long shot, Kyu-B shouldn't be entirely discounted from a retest after the DLC metagame settles down.

On the topic of Marshadow and Melmetal, their respective signature moves in Spectral Thief and Double Iron Bash make them simply too powerful to fit into even a post-DLC metagame. Both also reap the benefits of great typings and excellent stat distributions, so I find it extremely doubtful that Melmetal and/or Marshadow will end up being balanced in the future.

Once again I'd like to reiterate that all of the points made in this overly long post may very well be made moot by how the DLC metagame develops, so I'd like to restate my firm belief that the DLC metagame should be allowed to progress on its own without any retests for some time, and only after some level of development should retests be considered.

Also please never bring back Sableye that was a painful metagame

 

[Potatochan]

On the subject of post-DLC unbans, I feel that the meta should be allowed to settle first before any unbans are considered. That being said, I feel that potential retests of Mimikyu, Jirachi, Necrozma, and/or Kyurem-Black could be in order depending on the scope of power creep.

Mimikyu: While controversial, I feel that with so many new threats joining the picture and with the rise of Cinderace and Primarina, both of which do very well against Mimikyu (the former pretty much hard countering it while the latter only fears a potential Choice Band Mimikyu), it's not entirely impossible that Mimikyu could turn out to be worthy of a retest in the somewhat distant future.

Jirachi: Given the pretty much universal desire for this to be banned and how it just dominated the metagame, I'd be much less comfortable with a retest of Jirachi, but that being said, in metagames with far more powerful Pokemon such as Generation VII Jirachi has proven to be a fine if unimpressive Pokemon. While the advent of stall sets this generation might change this, it's still possible the metagame may reach a point where Jirachi could fit in without warping the metagame around itself.

Necrozma: This I feel is the most likely candidate for a retest. Its ban in the first place was largely a result of a low-power-level metagame, and with new threats through DLC this effect will be mitigated somewhat. I could easily see this fitting into a post-DLC metagame, although again development without any retests should happen first.

Kyurem-Black: While Dragon Dance might seem to make this Pokemon nigh uncounterable, the number of viable Steel and Fairy types in the metagame, as well as the specific rise of Pokemon like Cinderace which should have the capability to do well against it, and the influx of potential checks like Magnezone (if running Air Balloon) I feel that while a long shot, Kyu-B shouldn't be entirely discounted from a retest after the DLC metagame settles down.

On the topic of Marshadow and Melmetal, their respective signature moves in Spectral Thief and Double Iron Bash make them simply too powerful to fit into even a post-DLC metagame. Both also reap the benefits of great typings and excellent stat distributions, so I find it extremely doubtful that Melmetal and/or Marshadow will end up being balanced in the future.

Once again I'd like to reiterate that all of the points made in this overly long post may very well be made moot by how the DLC metagame develops, so I'd like to restate my firm belief that the DLC metagame should be allowed to progress on its own without any retests for some time, and only after some level of development should retests be considered.

Also please never bring back Sableye that was a painful metagame

252+ SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 314-372 (80.3 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 384-452 (105.4 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 390-465 (98.9 - 118%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

and i’m sorry, what viable steel types? corv dies to bolt strike, and aegislash has to play mindgames vs dragon dance sets

also cinderace post coming soonTM

 

[Smajet]

I guess I'll go over the banned mons to see if I think they could/should be unbanned post-DLC.

Eternatus, KyuW, Lunala, Mewtwo, NecrozmaDW, NecrozmaDM, Reshiram, Solgaleo, Zacian, Zekrom: no lol

KyuB: It has DD and Icicle Spear now. It was already very strong in every other meta it exists in. Keep this banned pls.

Mimikyu: Disguise is fundamentally broken in 1v1.

Mew: I think this will stay banned. Imprison-Transform on a mon with good stats is just too good in 1v1.

Melmetal: I think this thing is just too stronk. Band + AV beats too much. Also, this sounds crazy, but maybe we could free it but ban DIB.

Sableye: Prankster Encore-Disable is really good, so it could easily stay banned. Its bulk is pretty bad without Mega though.

Zamazenta: Call me crazy, but this might be acceptable in a stronger meta. Its stat line is pretty reminiscent of Mega Metagross which ended up being balanced in 1v1. It really wishes it got STAB Body Press. It's also missing any way to boost SpA or lower SpD, so a stall set is hard to run. It's definitely missing a few key tools that would make it obviously broken.

Jirachi: Could be interesting, but some good counters will need to be released.

Necrozma: More things bulky enough to tank Specs can come in DLC. Imo the one most likely to get unbanned.

 

[IBM]

Zamazenta: Call me crazy, but this might be acceptable in a stronger meta.

You are crazy.

Its stat line is pretty reminiscent of Mega Metagross which ended up being balanced in 1v1.

Keep in mind Mega Metagross existed in a meta with Z moves and other Megas. Zamazenta (I’ll assume you plan on banning crowned form because I mean look at it) has higher HP, Functionally higher defense with its ability, SpD, and Speed. The only thing Metagross really does better than Zamazenta is attack, and Zamazenta can hold something like choice band to increase that too. Fun Fact! Zamazenta has 70 BST more than the highest mon in 1v1 currently! Wow!

It's also missing any way to boost SpA or lower SpD, so a stall set is hard to run.

Uhhh, I’ll assume you meant boost SpD and lower SpA? In which case, you are wrong. A stall set is very easy to run.

In conclusion: unbanning Zamazenta is a bad idea.

 

[dogknees]

To those of you who have made posts that think we should unban pokemon when DLC drops, I suggest familiarizing yourself with the tiering policy framework that applies to all tiers. Although 1v1 is a very different meta, these policies still hold a large amount of value and should not be ignored. The whole post can be found here, but for the sake of my argument I'll include the most relevant point.

"If a proposal is made to ban or unban a Pokemon, ability, item, or move, the side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both."

If you're actually serious about unbanning pokemon, then make a serious post about it and not something lackluster that makes you look like a clown. The argument of "DLC will be shaking up the meta a lot anyway so we might as well unban some stuff" is a really bad precedent for the case of re-introducing pokemon that potentially aren't broken anymore. If we ignore the tiering policy and just unban a bunch of stuff with DLC drop, we would be creating a metagame that would more than likely centralize itself around the newly unbanned pokemon, which would then strain further metagame development and put the metagame in an awkward position, most likely filled with lots of unecessary suspects and quickbans that could have been avoided. This is just my opinion of what could happen if we're not careful, which is why it's important for unbans to be thought about both carefully and rationally.

There is more than likely room for some unbans come DLC, but these should be addressed with proper reason and sound arguments. It's not the council's job to do the hard work for you, so if you're honestly of the opinion that a pokemon should be re-introduced into the metagame, you should at the very least be able to provide some solid points to back up your statement, such as...

• Sets (ideally 2-4 examples) that the unbanned pokemon would likely utilize as well as the EV benchmarks of these sets (if any) and what these sets do in the current metagame
• A list of checks / counters (matchup charts are also great)
• Its broad effect on the metagame and likely outcomes of future development (this is always hard to tell, but things such as what pokemon will rise in usage and viability as well as what will fall are good points to be discussed)
• Consideration of the tournament / ladder scene (as outlined within tiering policy guidelines)

This is all also made much harder to address given that we'll be introduced to a bunch new threats that we haven't seen before, as well as returning pokemon from past generations that will undeniably find themselves a niche within the meta. On top of this are also the already existing pokemon, which will need to adapt. There's already a huge amount to consider, so it'd be foolish to consider any unbans for the sake of unbanning things.

 

[DMPancake]

The Case for Unbanning Marshadow
Disclaimer: Before you clown on me, I am referring to unbanning it when DLC drops.

Also, here's some music to listen to:

​

Mentioned this in hangar during prehome but forgot to bring it up here.

As we approach the First DLC, I want to propose Marshadow’s unban, for a few reasons:

1. Generation 8 is a completely different metagame.​

I think it’s pretty much universally agreed on why Marshadow was banned last generation, and for those who do not remember why or just were not part of 1v1 back then, let me just paraphrase Elo Bandit:

• Without the Boost that Z-Moves gave, Marshadow is left with a significantly weaker Ghost STAB in a metagame infested with Fairy-types. And then you add an Expansion Pass which is bound to add more counters to the list.

Of course, no one can be sure with a pokemon that's hardly been playtested, but still...

2. There's hardly any reason not to unban it with DLC drops.​

• No one really knows for sure whether Marshadow will be broken or not. Every practice single metric used outside of a ladder has been generally ineffective at gauging the viability of Pokemon on our banlist, seen by how previous Pokemon such as Darkrai and Zekrom never reached a full conclusion.
  • Just because you +Marshadow in a roomtour doesn’t mean people will get a good idea whether its fit to be in the meta; People generally just don’t put the effort in a nonladder environment to test out a Pokemon generally because no one wants to put the effort to optimize it.
• Melmetal was a new Pokemon introduced in HOME without Box-Legendary stats. Generally, most of the community didn’t think it was going to be as banworthy as it turned out to be, and they would have never have known if it was never initially freed, so a conclusion was reached. Why can’t we do the same with Marshadow?

Even if it is broken, there's very little downside e to letting Marshadow free on ladder to be voted on by council 2-3 days later. Here's my general thoughts.

• Any reasonable timeframe in which Marshadow is allowed in the metagame does not interfere with either of our major tournaments. 1v1LT is Pre-DLC locked and World Cup is a month away from the drop + 3 week pools give time to prep if it's banned closer to that period.
• If Marshadow is freed and then banned, we finally have some conclusion to the question on whether the Ghost can be in SS 1v1.
• If it’s balanced in 1v1, that's one more option people have to teambuild with.

I hope y'all will hear me out. As always, thanks for reading and have a nice day.

I think Spectral Thief is still extremely scary, but I agree that it needs to be tested. In a metagame where Primarina is the most used pokemon, I doubt Marshadow can be too over centralizing. Even full banded marshadow Poison Jab only kills regular 200 hp 132 def Primarina sets 12.5% of the time. I can see bulky Marshadow being more of a problem, but even so it deserves to be tested.

 

[Joker 1v1]

Runerigus, the answer to your Cinderace pest problem :3​

Runerigus, The Cinderace Beater :3

Runerigus @ Kee Berry
Ability: Wandering Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Facade
- Body Press
- Phantom Force

C : 252+ Atk Choice Band Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Runerigus: 194-230 (60.6 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
R : +1 252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 396-466 (129.8 - 152.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


C : 252+ Atk Choice Band Libero Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Runerigus: 165-195 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
R : 252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 132-156 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 198-233 (64.9 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rosa said Runerigus was too "suggestive" hence why Cinderace's head is there :3

 

[IBM]

Runerigus, the answer to your Cinderace pest problem :3​

View attachment 252955

Runerigus, The Cinderace Beater :3

Runerigus @ Kee Berry
Ability: Wandering Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Facade
- Body Press
- Phantom Force

C : 252+ Atk Choice Band Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Runerigus: 194-230 (60.6 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
R : +1 252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 396-466 (129.8 - 152.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


C : 252+ Atk Choice Band Libero Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Runerigus: 165-195 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
R : 252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 132-156 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 198-233 (64.9 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rosa said Runerigus was too "suggestive" hence why Cinderace's head is there :3

Cinderace learns bulk up. Nice try though.
Bulk up 3 times then sucker.

252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 88-104 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 4.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 67-79 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 9.4% chance to 4HKO
252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. +3 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 53-63 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO

+3 252+ Atk Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Runerigus: 320-380 (100 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Ehmcee]

Cinderace learns bulk up. Nice try though.
Bulk up 3 times then sucker.

252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 88-104 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 4.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 67-79 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 9.4% chance to 4HKO
252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. +3 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 53-63 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO

+3 252+ Atk Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Runerigus: 320-380 (100 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I was starting to calc why did you have to snipe me like that.

As to not be a one liner, has anyone tried making a gyarados set that beats cinder?
I've come up with this, but it prob loses to some bulk up set.

Gyara

Gyarados @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 56 Def / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Power Whip
- Iron Head

 

[Joker 1v1]

Cinderace learns bulk up. Nice try though.
Bulk up 3 times then sucker.

252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 88-104 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 4.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 67-79 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 9.4% chance to 4HKO
252+ Def Runerigus Body Press vs. +3 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 53-63 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO

+3 252+ Atk Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Runerigus: 320-380 (100 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yes this does beat that but if you wanna run Pyro Sucker Bulk Up Taunt whilst being adamant....be my guest.

 

[Ehmcee]

Yes this does beat that but if you wanna run Pyro Sucker Bulk Up Taunt whilst being adamant....be my guest.

i mean, bulk up usually runs life orb soooooo

 

[Mr. Mime fan]

I guess I'll go over the banned mons to see if I think they could/should be unbanned post-DLC.

Eternatus, KyuW, Lunala, Mewtwo, NecrozmaDW, NecrozmaDM, Reshiram, Solgaleo, Zacian, Zekrom: no lol

KyuB: It has DD and Icicle Spear now. It was already very strong in every other meta it exists in. Keep this banned pls.

Mimikyu: Disguise is fundamentally broken in 1v1.

Mew: I think this will stay banned. Imprison-Transform on a mon with good stats is just too good in 1v1.

Melmetal: I think this thing is just too stronk. Band + AV beats too much. Also, this sounds crazy, but maybe we could free it but ban DIB.

Sableye: Prankster Encore-Disable is really good, so it could easily stay banned. Its bulk is pretty bad without Mega though.

Zamazenta: Call me crazy, but this might be acceptable in a stronger meta. Its stat line is pretty reminiscent of Mega Metagross which ended up being balanced in 1v1. It really wishes it got STAB Body Press. It's also missing any way to boost SpA or lower SpD, so a stall set is hard to run. It's definitely missing a few key tools that would make it obviously broken.

Jirachi: Could be interesting, but some good counters will need to be released.

Necrozma: More things bulky enough to tank Specs can come in DLC. Imo the one most likely to get unbanned.

Zamazenta has absolutely no reason to be unbanned in this metagame. Not even in the dlc. It might not be confirmed we know all of the returning mons which will factor in the supposed unbanning of this, i know that this will break the metagame more than even jirachi. Zamazenta is bulky in its own right and can even run a stall set breaking a lot of the meta. But IMO the main reason why this is still banned and why i do not think it needs to be unbanned is its large movepool, its got insane stats across the board, pair that with a movepool insanely ready to pull off a band set, with moves like close combat iron head and wild charge to hit many mons in the tier. It also has coverage for its weaknesses like crunch and iron head. Also it has an ability that increases its defence by 1 stage when entering the battlefield, which is also broken, so its defence is not an issue

So my Point Is- This thing should never come back to 1v1 this gen, unless it has been proven that it will be balanced in this metagame, which it currently is not