Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[IBM]

Listen. I couldn’t care less whether mimi gets banned or not, but if you have to come up with some 5% usage set in order to make mimi sound more scary, I think there’s a problem with what you think is broken. This is the same thing as with dragonite, people hyped it up as having sets that beat everything in the meta, but in reality the sets other than the main three are actual garbage. Now you may be thinking of a certain other dragon that everyone said was broken. Kyurem-Black is the essence of what mimikyu wants to be. Kyub had a couple sets that beat a majority of the meta and had excellent matchup retain, and shifted the meta so that you had to run some steel type on every team.

I pose some questions: Do you see this extreme warping of the meta with mimikyu? Is Excadrill used 10 times more just because mimikyu exists? Does mimikyu’s different sets retain so much of their matchups that you can’t tell one from the other? And keep in mind that Kyub was barely kept banned even having these factors.

I want to stay neutral on this, I was really just trying to point out some flaws in some arguments.

TLDR: SwSh sucks

 

[zioziotrip]

I pose some questions: Do you see this extreme warping of the meta with mimikyu?

Absolutely. Multi-hits are everywhere when there are much better options in addition mons such as Cloyster get their entire niche from beating Mimi.

Is Excadrill used 10 times more just because mimikyu exists?

Yes. It's used a lot more solely because of Kyu, and rachi to some effect. It will lose a major reason to use it once kyu is gone.

Does mimikyu’s different sets retain so much of their matchups that you can’t tell one from the other?

More or less. While Curse and offensive have marginally different MUs, similar sets such as choice have incredibly similar MU charts which one or two variations.

And keep in mind that Kyub was barely kept banned even having these factors.

zzz Relying on precedent isn't an argument

Edit: Don't answer my question with more questions.

 

[IBM]

zzz Relying on precedent isn't an argument

Damn bro that’s fascinating, but point me to where my questions were making an argument and not displaying points for all sides to think about

Edit: TLDR: SwSh sucks

 

[zioziotrip]

Damn bro that’s fascinating, but point me to where my questions were making an argument and not displaying points for all sides to think about

Edit: TLDR: SwSh sucks

 

[STABLE]

Kyurem-Black

The main difference between Kyurem-Black and Mimikyu is that the way you counter Kyub on a team is easy: "use a Steel/Fighting/Rock/Fairy type Pokemon" or "Use a very physically bulky mon", with exceptions here and there obviously.

You don't have that with Mimikyu, your Mimikyu answer is "run a Steel-type Mold Breaker Pokemon with high attack", "run a physically bulky Choice Banded Pokemon with a multi-hit move", "run Yawn and hax it or Leech Seed and 50/50 its Curse set"
Kyurem-Black was a very strong Pokemon on paper since it had amazing stats, but it did have his lackings. Its moveset was limited, it's typing was defensively terrible, the metagame was already oversaturated with things that beat Dragon types, etc.
Mimikyu and Kyurem-Black couldn't be any different when talking about reasons to ban them, there is 0% reason to make a comparison between the two. Not only that, but you're talking about a different metagame with different Pokemon and different mechanics, literally has nothing to do with gen8

I'll write about Dragonite as well, since the main comparison is "broken bc multiple sets", although most of Dragonite's sets came at huge opportunity costs and even then it still couldn't phase most Steel or Fairy types, or most of the bulkier threats. Dragonite always ran the same archetype in his sets: Bulky Offense. The variation between the sets is quite notable but the archetype remains the same
Mimikyu on the other hand, can run every archetype available. From Set-up to Bulky Offense to Gimmick Stall even to Set-up Stall. And literally not a single one of these sets gives up any opportunity cost because all sets beat half the VR by themselves.
Mimikyu is fucking busted and it's a way different dilemma than whatever fucking mon was or was not banned last gen, you can't make a comparison.

 

[IBM]

View attachment 237515

Haha bro you’re so funny. Take example from stable and make a real fucking argument for once.

The main difference between Kyurem-Black and Mimikyu is that the way you counter Kyub on a team is easy: "use a Steel/Fighting/Rock/Fairy type Pokemon" or "Use a very physically bulky mon", with exceptions here and there obviously.

You don't have that with Mimikyu, your Mimikyu answer is "run a Steel-type Mold Breaker Pokemon with high attack", "run a physically bulky Choice Banded Pokemon with a multi-hit move", "run Yawn and hax it or Leech Seed and 50/50 its Curse set"
Kyurem-Black was a very strong Pokemon on paper since it had amazing stats, but it did have his lackings. Its moveset was limited, it's typing was defensively terrible, the metagame was already oversaturated with things that beat Dragon types, etc.
Mimikyu and Kyurem-Black couldn't be any different when talking about reasons to ban them, there is 0% reason to make a comparison between the two. Not only that, but you're talking about a different metagame with different Pokemon and different mechanics, literally has nothing to do with gen8

I'll write about Dragonite as well, since the main comparison is "broken bc multiple sets", although most of Dragonite's sets came at huge opportunity costs and even then it still couldn't phase most Steel or Fairy types, or most of the bulkier threats. Dragonite always ran the same archetype in his sets: Bulky Offense. The variation between the sets is quite notable but the archetype remains the same
Mimikyu on the other hand, can run every archetype available. From Set-up to Bulky Offense to Gimmick Stall even to Set-up Stall. And literally not a single one of these sets gives up any opportunity cost because all sets beat half the VR by themselves.
Mimikyu is fucking busted and it's a way different dilemma than whatever fucking mon was or was not banned last gen, you can't make a comparison.

This is the type of discussion I’m trying to bring up, not stupid one liners like “but... semantics”. Do some research and make an educated post about the point you’re trying to make.

 

[Tol]

reminder that having 30 diff sets that beat everything has never been seen as banworthy- if mimikyu‘s relevant sets (i.e ones that get used a lot on ladder/in tours, yes zioziotrip this does matter) together beat enough of the meta to reach whatever limit merits a suspect, then a suspect should occur. the most historically diverse mons, when put up for ban, have been weighed by their best two or sometimes three sets, if that many sets were viable for the mon. the burden should be on the pro-ban people to provide these facts, however. a quickban should absolutely be out of the question at this point on the proceedings. I apparently missed the memo about everyone shitting on precedent, but I hope that quickbanning a mon that’s been in the meta since its inception is out of the question. if mimikyu is so broken, coming up with a factual list of reasons shouldn’t be hard.
I know this thread can do better. If you want people to take a vr comparison seriously, use relevant sets and back it up with calcs. If you do that, your argument will carry a lot more weight. also lkjc and zio can you two not please

 

[Patricick]

Guys, can we please cool it with the Dragonite comparison? It's not a good one. Now, I'm not gonna sit here and act like I'm super knowledgeable on gen 8 1v1, because I'm not, but I certainly know gen 7, and I know gen 8 well enough to know that this comparison is bullshit. When you look at it on the surface level, it makes sense. They're both broken for the same reason; They have a ton of viable sets and you have to play a guessing game on what set it is. They even both have damage mitigating abilities. However, it's not a very fair comparison when you start really thinking about it. The two huge differences is the metas' they inhabited and their checks/counters. I know, it sounds obvious, but they really matter. Mimikyu is the best pokemon by a mile. Dragonite, while likely the best, was accompanied in S tier by two other pokemon who were very close in power. He naturally didn't over centralize because he was only one of three top tiers. This, by nature, means that Mimikyu will over centralize way more the Dnite did at his worse.

However, the single most differentiating factor is this. Dnite can be casually checked by a bunch of pokemon. What I mean by that is Dnite had a lot of sets, but their checks often overlapped. You didn't have to build your team with every single set in mind because if you check one, you probably check some others. Dnite was always bulky offense, as he would use both his bulk and offensive power on basically every viable set, since he relied on his bulk even when uninvested and vice versa. Mimikyu definitely doesn't do this. There are general attributes that give you a good Dnite matchup. There's like three specific combinations of attributes to get a good Mimikyu matchup. You have to A. have mold breaker, be faster/ always survive a hit form Kyu, have a really high attacking stat, and have a strong steel/poison move. B. Use a pokemon with a really high attack stat with choice band and a multi hit move and get lucky. C. Be able to stall/ cheese Mimikyu out. Those are the three main ways to beat Mimikyu. Now, to conclude my lecture, I'm NOT going to advocate for anti/pro ban, both because that's both not the point and I don't have enough experience to have my opinion actually matter on that topic.

I want to thank Stable for laying some really good points, I just wanted to go into more detail then he did. He definitely inspired me to make this post, and I hope to see some more posts as good as his.

Also, guys, come on. You two don't need to be arguing over this, especially in such an aggressive and petty manner. You're both better then this. Don't drag each other down. This adds nothing to the debate and just serves to create needless beef over something that doesn't even matter. It only bloats the forums with a bunch of one liners. If you guys really wanna argue, then do it on the Discord.

 

[Morgan]

Hey guys, VG Jungle coming at you, wanting to talk about a really big issue in the 1v1 community right now. And that would be Poison-type Pokemon.
I know, you’re all thinking, “hey VG, I appreciate that you bring up the omnipresent topic of Poison-types in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame, and I’m surprised you’re the first one to bring it up in the metagame discussion thread.” I also know you guys are sick and tired of all this talk of “ban sableye” and “ban necrozma” but I’m going to assure you that this post is solely about Poison-type Pokemon in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame.

I know you’re now thinking, “well I know poison type pokemon are great, but which ones are the great ones?”

I know you already know Poison-type Pokemon are great in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame, but if you don’t, I’m going to explain it.

A. They beat fairies
- Fairies are really good right now with Primarina, Sylveon, and that Puppet Rat that’s name I can’t remember. Poison-type Pokemon such as Gengar, Drapion, Toxapex, Venusaur, and Silvally-Poison all have generally positive matchups against Fairy-types.

B. They all happen to have other traits that make them useful.
- Poison is a terrible type. The only reason any Poison-type is good is because it has other stuff. Like holy heck, all they do is beat fairies.

Now that you know why Poison-type Pokemon are so good in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame, let’s look at our cast of Characters!

Gengar
- Gengar likes long walks on the beach where he then proceeds to OHKO your WP Incin with Focus Blast. Gengar does a lot of damage (OHKO) to a lot of things, such as Primarina, Sylveon, Jirachi, Gastrodon, Incineroar, and more.

Venusaur
- Choice Specs, LO, Petaya, and SleepSeed with some well rounded base stats makes for a threatening Pokemon in the 1v1 Metagame.

Silvally-Poison
- It’s like Silvally-Water but it has a better Sylveon matchup. Also it’s Silvally so it’s Silvally at Team Preview.

Drapion
- This thing is actually pretty clean. LO Bulldoze is nice and all but you’ve got the path right there in front of you. Stall Bulldoze is the new wave.

Drapion @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bulldoze
- Iron Defense
- Rest
- Taunt

This thing beats Dracovish (Band and Scarf no 50/50 required), Corsola, Null, MandiCorvi, and adamant zera no questions asked. It also isn’t weak to fighting (protip) so you can beat stuff like Sawk with it. Battle armor is always clean.

Toxapex
- WOAH HOW DID THIS GET HERE! Interestingly enough, Toxapex is a Poison-type Pokemon that is used in the Sword and Shield Metagame. Do not fear, this post is actually just Drapion propaganda, not Toxapex propaganda. Toxapex is one of the best bulky waters in the meta atm. Iron Defense is so so good, making it way more consistent than Milotic. Also it actually benefits from its Poison-type subtype as it lets it lure things like Choice Band Steelix and Choice Band Haxorus both of whom like to Shaky Shaky Earthquakey.

Conclusion:

As you can tell, Poison-type Pokemon in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame are very powerful. They hold a lot of versatility and many roles such as beating Fairy-type Pokemon and beating Fairy-type Pokemon.

TL;dr

Use poison types because they’re good. Poison in general is bad but the Pokémon that happen to be poison are often pretty good. Use BD Stall Drapion. Use Toxapex.

 

[Eriey]

Guys, can we please cool it with the Dragonite comparison? It's not a good one. Now, I'm not gonna sit here and act like I'm super knowledgeable on gen 8 1v1, because I'm not, but I certainly know gen 7, and I know gen 8 well enough to know that this comparison is bullshit. When you look at it on the surface level, it makes sense. They're both broken for the same reason; They have a ton of viable sets and you have to play a guessing game on what set it is. They even both have damage mitigating abilities. However, it's not a very fair comparison when you start really thinking about it. The two huge differences is the metas' they inhabited and their checks/counters. I know, it sounds obvious, but they really matter. Mimikyu is the best pokemon by a mile. Dragonite, while likely the best, was accompanied in S tier by two other pokemon who were very close in power. He naturally didn't over centralize because he was only one of three top tiers. This, by nature, means that Mimikyu will over centralize way more the Dnite did at his worse.

However, the single most differentiating factor is this. Dnite can be casually checked by a bunch of pokemon. What I mean by that is Dnite had a lot of sets, but their checks often overlapped. You didn't have to build your team with every single set in mind because if you check one, you probably check some others. Dnite was always bulky offense, as he would use both his bulk and offensive power on basically every viable set, since he relied on his bulk even when uninvested and vice versa. Mimikyu definitely doesn't do this. There are general attributes that give you a good Dnite matchup. There's like three specific combinations of attributes to get a good Mimikyu matchup. You have to A. have mold breaker, be faster/ always survive a hit form Kyu, have a really high attacking stat, and have a strong steel/poison move. B. Use a pokemon with a really high attack stat with choice band and a multi hit move and get lucky. C. Be able to stall/ cheese Mimikyu out. Those are the three main ways to beat Mimikyu. Now, to conclude my lecture, I'm NOT going to advocate for anti/pro ban, both because that's both not the point and I don't have enough experience to have my opinion actually matter on that topic.

I want to thank Stable for laying some really good points, I just wanted to go into more detail then he did. He definitely inspired me to make this post, and I hope to see some more posts as good as his.

Also, guys, come on. You two don't need to be arguing over this, especially in such an aggressive and petty manner. You're both better then this. Don't drag each other down. This adds nothing to the debate and just serves to create needless beef over something that doesn't even matter. It only bloats the forums with a bunch of one liners. If you guys really wanna argue, then do it on the Discord.

Disclaimer: This post is about the comparison between Mimikyu and Dragonite, not entirely about Mimikyu. (it's also a place for me to vent about Dragonite more and try to get it out of my system)

Not that I will make an argument based on Mimikyu Dragonite comparison, but the idea that Mimikyu is much more based on cheese strats and that you can just blanket check Dragonite is really, really dumb.
Here I even made a paste: Pokepaste
Wow this was unironically a really good idea I feel so much better now.
Why did I do this again?
Uhhhh, Dragonite only has 4 counters (from S to B-) that aren't cheese related (or stall, of which 62.5% of them have to git gud and predict Physical or Special) so it's like Mimikyu in that you can't face it head on?
When I started this I feel like I had some reason I was going to put at the end, but then I forgot it so oh well.
Don't you dare say opportunity cost

 

[maki]

dude you shouldn't have to run unmons just because smth is obviously broken and you'll just "adapt." All of these mons have very limited usage outside of Mimi and it shouldn't have to be said, but I guess I have to. Using bottom of the barrel shit is evident of how ludicrous Mimi is. Idk how complaining about it is somehow whiny, the whole point of this thread is to discuss things. Stop whining about my complaining.

In other news, "adapt" is becoming number three on my un-argument list. (ik cash meant smth different but still)
Stable summed this up pretty well. Nothing is unbeatable, metas can always adapt and change but this doesn't mean it's healthy. Mimi has such a stranglehold on the meta and while mons will adapt, it's a two-way street. Mimikyu has and will adapt to new threats. It has many times in the past and it will do so in the future.

Some of your counters aren't even reliable
Drapion-still loses to salac curse
Honedge-I could be wrong but it's a 50/50 if the Mimi is choice or not
Vena-also loses to salac curse
Pangoro-loses to the up and coming kee+charm set, band also has an 18% chance of killing but that's negligible
Mamo-252+ Atk Choice Band Mimikyu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 400-472 (110.8 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lucario-This mon is a joke but sure you win, hurray!

Waiting to find something to suddenly pop up and beat kyu reliably is not going to happen. Kyu has proven itself a menace throughout the gen, I've yet to see a reasonable anti-ban argument. Most anti-ban arguments are semantics of tiering philosophy or just not seeing how broken it is.

I leave you with this question, what does Mimikyu contribute to 1v1, and does it outweigh its negative influence on building & playing?

Why did you write Honedge my man lmao, it's Doublade, but back to the point in that it will win 100% of the time. Even with Lkjc's poorly EV'd Doublade, Mimikyu will never 2KHO using Shadow Claw. Using Shadow Sneak will ensure the win (2HKO) by preventing the use of Phantom Force and some other things, but I'd rather not get into those details.

 

[zxgzxg]

Hey guys, VG Jungle coming at you, wanting to talk about a really big issue in the 1v1 community right now. And that would be Poison-type Pokemon.
I know, you’re all thinking, “hey VG, I appreciate that you bring up the omnipresent topic of Poison-types in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame, and I’m surprised you’re the first one to bring it up in the metagame discussion thread.” I also know you guys are sick and tired of all this talk of “ban sableye” and “ban necrozma” but I’m going to assure you that this post is solely about Poison-type Pokemon in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame.

I know you’re now thinking, “well I know poison type pokemon are great, but which ones are the great ones?”

I know you already know Poison-type Pokemon are great in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame, but if you don’t, I’m going to explain it.

A. They beat fairies
- Fairies are really good right now with Primarina, Sylveon, and that Puppet Rat that’s name I can’t remember. Poison-type Pokemon such as Gengar, Drapion, Toxapex, Venusaur, and Silvally-Poison all have generally positive matchups against Fairy-types.

B. They all happen to have other traits that make them useful.
- Poison is a terrible type. The only reason any Poison-type is good is because it has other stuff. Like holy heck, all they do is beat fairies.

Now that you know why Poison-type Pokemon are so good in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame, let’s look at our cast of Characters!

Gengar
- Gengar likes long walks on the beach where he then proceeds to OHKO your WP Incin with Focus Blast. Gengar does a lot of damage (OHKO) to a lot of things, such as Primarina, Sylveon, Jirachi, Gastrodon, Incineroar, and more.

Venusaur
- Choice Specs, LO, Petaya, and SleepSeed with some well rounded base stats makes for a threatening Pokemon in the 1v1 Metagame.

Silvally-Poison
- It’s like Silvally-Water but it has a better Sylveon matchup. Also it’s Silvally so it’s Silvally at Team Preview.

Drapion
- This thing is actually pretty clean. LO Bulldoze is nice and all but you’ve got the path right there in front of you. Stall Bulldoze is the new wave.

Drapion @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bulldoze
- Iron Defense
- Rest
- Taunt

This thing beats Dracovish (Band and Scarf no 50/50 required), Corsola, Null, MandiCorvi, and adamant zera no questions asked. It also isn’t weak to fighting (protip) so you can beat stuff like Sawk with it. Battle armor is always clean.

Toxapex
- WOAH HOW DID THIS GET HERE! Interestingly enough, Toxapex is a Poison-type Pokemon that is used in the Sword and Shield Metagame. Do not fear, this post is actually just Drapion propaganda, not Toxapex propaganda. Toxapex is one of the best bulky waters in the meta atm. Iron Defense is so so good, making it way more consistent than Milotic. Also it actually benefits from its Poison-type subtype as it lets it lure things like Choice Band Steelix and Choice Band Haxorus both of whom like to Shaky Shaky Earthquakey.

Conclusion:

As you can tell, Poison-type Pokemon in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame are very powerful. They hold a lot of versatility and many roles such as beating Fairy-type Pokemon and beating Fairy-type Pokemon.

TL;dr

Use poison types because they’re good. Poison in general is bad but the Pokémon that happen to be poison are often pretty good. Use BD Stall Drapion. Use Toxapex.

Wheres Toxtricity? Smh my head

 

[IBM]

Why

[BaleBlaze Fan] WaylaidToday at 1:20 AM
Lkjc
[DPP OU main] LkjcToday at 1:21 AM
VG if you keep saying that i WILL make the ground type post
[BaleBlaze Fan] WaylaidToday at 1:21 AM
Lkjc

Hey guys, Lkjc coming at you, wanting to talk about a really big issue in the 1v1 community right now. And that would be Ground-type Pokemon.
I know, you’re all thinking, “hey Lkjc, I appreciate that you bring up the omnipresent topic of Ground-types in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame, and I’m surprised you’re the first one to bring it up in the metagame discussion thread.” I also know you guys are sick and tired of all this talk of “ban sableye” and “ban necrozma” but I’m going to assure you that this post is solely about Ground-type Pokemon in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame.

I know you’re now thinking, “well I know ground type pokemon are great, but which ones are the great ones?”

I know you already know Ground-type Pokemon are great in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame, but if you don’t, I’m going to explain it.


A. They beat poisons
- Poisons are really good right now with Gengar, Stall Drapion, and that plant thing that’s name I can’t remember. Ground-type Pokemon such as Excadrill, Gastrodon, Steelix, Rhyperior, and Silvally-Ground all have generally positive matchups against Poison-types.

B. They all happen to have other traits that make them useful.
- Ground is a terrible type. The only reason any Ground-type is good is because it has other stuff. Like holy heck, all they do is beat Poisons.

Now that you know why Ground-type Pokemon are so good in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame, let’s look at our cast of Characters!

Excadrill
- Excadrill likes short walks in the desert where he then proceeds to OHKO your Mimikyu with Iron Head. Excadrill does a lot of damage (OHKO) to a lot of things, such as Jirachi, Mimikyu, Sylveon, Drapion, Silvally-Poison, and more.

Steelix
- Choice Band and Torment with not well rounded base stats AT ALL (Like holy hell this things stats look like Mount Everest next to the Grand Canyon), makes for a threatening Pokemon in the 1v1 Metagame.

Silvally-Ground
- It’s like Silvally-Water but it has a better Silvally-Poison matchup. Also it’s Silvally so it’s Silvally at Team Preview. (Was that too much silvally?)

Mamoswine
- This thing is actually pretty clean. LO Bulldoze is nice and all but you’ve got the path right there in front of you. Stall Bulldoze is the new wave.

Mamoswine @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 16 SpD / 244 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Amnesia
- Bulldoze
- Defense Curl
- Rest

This thing beats Dragapult (Specs and Scarf no 50/50 required), Corsola, Hydreigon, Aromatisse, and modest Kyurem no questions asked. It also isn’t weak to fire (protip) so you can beat stuff like Cinderace with it. Thick Fat is always clean.

Mudsdale
- WOAH HOW DID THIS GET HERE! Interestingly enough, Mudsdale is a Ground-type Pokemon that is used in the Sword and Shield Metagame. Do not fear, this post is actually just Mamoswine propaganda, not Mudsdale propaganda. Mudsdale is one of the best bulky grounds in the meta atm. Assault Vest and Stamina are so so good, making it way more consistent than Rhyperior. Also it actually benefits from its Ground-type as it lets it lure things like Choice Band Avalugg and Choice Specs Hydreigon both of whom die to Messy Messy Body Pressy.

Conclusion:

As you can tell, Ground-type Pokemon in the Sword and Shield 1v1 Metagame are very powerful. They hold a lot of versatility and many roles such as beating Poison-type Pokemon and beating other Ground-type Pokemon.

TL;dr

Use ground types because they’re good. Ground in general is bad but the Pokémon that happen to be ground are often pretty good. DO NOT use stall Mamoswine. Use Mudsdale.

 

[STABLE]

Kee Charm Mimikyu

Since this set has been brought up multiple times during discussion but people don't really run this on ladder and it hasn't been explored further I've decided to handcraft a match-up chart for it, to convince people to run it more often on ladder and make it more wide-spread and viable for discussion

The Set

Mimikyu @ Kee Berry
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Charm
- Rest
- Toxic
- Taunt

The Chart

S Rank
Jirachi they trick you :c
Mimikyu beats all but curse

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar just dont get flinched

A+ Rank
Sylveon

A Rank
Arcanine it wins if the only offensive move is Burn Up or against Band
Crustle
Dracovish
Dragapult beats band and physical subdisable
Primarina

A- Rank
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight you win if it runs Protect or Body Press, not sure vs. Iron Head
Haxorus you beat Scarf but not Band
Sawk
Whimsicott if it runs Taunt it wins
Zeraora if it runs Taunt it wins

B+ Rank
Aegislash beats physical
Avalugg
Cinderace subtaunt is 50% usage but it wins vs. the only 50%
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Incineroar same as cinderace
Kyurem depends on SpA/Speed invest it mostly loses
Mandibuzz
Rillaboom Taunt is 30% usage rip
Rotom-Wash loses to scarf, against stall rotomW needs to hit hella hydro pumps in a row
Togekiss

B Rank
Aromatisse they have to play the MU perfectly to win and 99% of ladder ppl cant do that
Blastoise
Chandelure
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Grimmsnarl 50% taunt usage ripppp
Kommo-o outspeeds but cant hit you
Milotic
Rhyperior
Rotom-Heat same as rotomW but beats stall reliably
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Celebi
Dracozolt
Duraludon
Durant
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Keldeo
Type: Null
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Centiskorch beats flash fire loses vs white smoke
Cloyster
Darmanitan it tricks you :c
Diggersby
Gardevoir it tricks you :c
Gyarados taunt 40% usage rippp
Rotom-Mow same deal as totom heat
Terrakion
Togedemaru I think, it needs hella iron head hax to win
Toxapex

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Gigalith
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

I've used usage stats found at https://www.smogon.com/stats/2020-03/moveset/gen81v1-1630.txt

While it is pretty underwhelming when you look at other Mimikyu sets, remember that this is not the point of the set
You might say it's outshined by generic physical staller but the point of the set is to bait in most of the threats that are supposed to hard counter the main curse/band/LO sets, namely: EV'd Darmanitan-Galar, Crustle, some Corviknight, Scarf Haxorus, Avalugg, Physical Aegislash, Band Incineroar, non-Taunt Rillaboom, Aromatisse, Golisopod, Rhyperior, Steelix, Cloyster, Gyarados, Gigalith.
This further reduces the amount of reliable counters, especially considering that it's an unoptimized set that might not have the right moves. Mimikyu also has access to stuff like Confide to beat a large amount of special attackers, it can run Pain Split + Drain Punch so it doesnt have to rely on Toxic, Babiri Berry instead of Kee to reliably beat Band Haxorus.

I want you all to imagine what would happen if Mimikyu doesn't get banned during the following suspect. DLC is coming out, but besides Magnezone (which still loses to Cursekyu and Bulky Band) it doesn't add a single Pokemon that beats Mimikyu, as far as we know, at least. It is very likely that the addition of Pokemon is gonna make Mimikyu even more broken, since the addition of 1 viable counter aside with 10 viable mons that lose to it makes Mimikyu better, not worse.

And even if we were to ignore DLC, the meta keeps developing and Mimikyu sets could become even more optimized and scary, to the point where even Excadrill wouldn't be a safe pick to beat it.
And to the people that say Jirachi is more broken and needs to be banned, or that if Mimikyu gets banned Jirachi would become even more op and it would cause a domino effect, that is not the case. Jirachi soft-checks all Mimikyu sets with its Scarf set, and counters Band/Scarf/LO with its stall set, so if Mimikyu were to be removed from the tier, it would actually receive a slight nerf.

idk man fuck Mimikyu just remove it from the tier already ffs

 

[Patricick]

I mean, any potentially banworthy Pokemon should have been quickbanned for the current meta, and collectively unbanned after DLC drops. I know I am way too late to this part, but a suspect to gauge the brokenness of a Pokemon in an incomplete or sure-to-change meta feels like an unnecessary waste of time. I know this meta has been played quite a bit and its intricacies have been discussed to death in all available forums (room, Discord, Smogon), but a quickban (I feel) would warrant a re-looking into after the post-DLC meta stabilizes, but a suspect test would give a pseudo-solid "evidence" of sorts drawn from an incomplete meta. This is not to undermine the effort being put in by guys who want to make their opinions heard here, but I just feel like this can be put to better use after the DLC drops and the meta stabilizes. I know this is not very relevant to the current suspect, but I hope the council takes this into consideration before mulling over a potential suspect. Also, for the above-stated reason, I haven't thought much about the place Mimikyu has in the "current" metagame.

PS: Sorry if this hurts any of you, because that was not my intention.

I'm gonna post this here since it's not actually about Mimikyu and instead about the post itself

I'm so incredibly confused about the message of the post. So you think that because the DLC comes out in two months, we should just say fuck it and quickban Mimi? That doesn't make sense my guy. Just because we know the meta will change in a couple months doesn't mean with have to take absolute decisive action right now. While I don't think precedence is nearly as important as some people think, I definitely don't think that we want to set this example for the future. Just quick banning everything because a lot of people think it should be banned is not a good idea. This sounds slightly less foolish when you think of Mimi, because while I can't speak for the community, most people seem to want the ban. But what about Jirachi? That one sounds like a much more heated topic, as people are a lot more divided on whether it's too broken or not. So since a lot of people consider it ban worthy, we should just quick ban it despite a large amount of people wanting it to stay? Quick bans are the last option, where everyone agrees that it is broken and needs to be gone, like Kyurem B or Melmetal, and to a lesser extent Necrozma, as even that got some backlash about the quick ban even though the vast majority of people agreed that it was broken and eventually going to banned. They should be reserved for the situations where the Pokemon is completely and utterly broken and unfit for the metagame. While Mimikyu is broken af, it's not that, and has people who don't want it to go. We need to hear their arguments too. If we just shut down all conversation on the topic, then not only does it fuck over everyone who wants to argue in it's favor, we as a community lose valuable insight. The discussion that suspects bring enhances the meta further quite a bit and helps us identify key attributes that lead to a broken 1v1 mon, For example, during all this discussion, I realized that one thing that causes broken mons a lot is damage reduction. Dragonite had it, Necroz had it, and Mimi has it. The suspect narrows down the discussion to one specific part of the meta and contributes to furthering our understanding of it.
I don't quite understand what you mean by "pseudo solid evidence". What the fuck does that even mean? The meta isn't "incomplete", and that term is vague and non informative. We have a solid understanding of the current meta, we've had two months to figure out the meta, and while I guess you could consider it incomplete if you look at it from the stance of two months from now, we're not in June. We don't have end of gen 7 level of understanding, because we haven't had over a full year for it to develop, but our understanding definitely isn't incomplete. However, for the arguments sake, let's just go along with what you say and assume that the meta is incomplete and we will only use "pseudo evidence" in the suspect (Which it isn't and we won't), pseudo evidence from an incomplete meta is better then no evidence at all. So there really would be no upside to not doing the suspect. Suspects are there for a reason.

For my closing remarks, I would like to give a disclaimer of sorts. (Not sure if that's the right word but fuck it I'm gonna use it) I don't mean this to be rude or to attack you personally. I think your post is stupid, not you as a person

Also Maxy is a chad and Yache Kommo-o is the best 1v1 set

 

[lancert]

yo, i've been playing ss 1v1 since the beginning and there are some things i'd like to talk about the bans. this post will discuss my thoughts on the multiple bans since the galar era is among us. i strongly believe that after mimik's suspect test, we should attack a mon who manages to centralize the current metagame: darmanitan-galar. when i start building the teams, i immediately think of this threat to him, to be honest, i always bring a defensive cover to fight him, for example, sturdys and fire types, which remains a considerable advantage.

gorilla tactics remains the only ability and "broken". however zen mode could be possible but it's not at all common and frequent.​

potential movesets:

Darmanitan-Galar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 36 HP / 216 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Superpower

Darmanitan-Galar @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Giga Impact
- Icicle Crash
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower / Stone Edge

Darmanitan-Galar @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Zen Mode
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Flare Blitz
- Icicle Crash
- Encore

i also used the statistics from the beginning of the month to prove darm manages to defeat defensive cores without the sweep.

important cals used for band darm

252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Primarina: 425-501 (116.7 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Rotom-Wash: 282-332 (93 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 100+ Def Corviknight: 262-309 (65.6 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (it's still far from being enough for corvik who remains an extremely defensive mon not to be able to defeat the darm)

252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 331-390 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 232 HP / 132 Def Sylveon: 391-462 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Giga Impact vs. 144 HP / 40+ Def Rotom-Heat: 320-377 (115.5 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

what more can i say?​

 

[heavystorming]

I like your approach on DarmG, but unfortunately, I strongly disagree with your opinion. If there's a suspect-ban(able) and/or overcentralized pokemon right now, it is Jirachi.

 

[dogknees]

forward thinking is great, but I think that these discussions would be better following the suspect test. If everything remains the same we have the arguably bigger issue of jirachi, but if mimikyu does get banned we’ll be in a very different meta that will definitely need some time to develop given new sets and mons that will be able to shine. I think darm / rachi discussion is great, but it’s a little pointless to discuss potentially problematic mons when we’re two days away from a major tiering decision, so maybe hold off a little longer and save the discussion for then?

 

[pazza]

Jirachi is now banned, a lot more mons will become better and some will become worse..

The ones that get better:
Sawk is super strong with band, almost every set of Jirachi could beat Sawk. Sawk is going to become a lot better.
This mon benefits from Jirachi getting banned soo much. Jirachi could basically wall this mon to hell and kill it easily with Iron Head flinches. Sylveon could be ranked up to S.
Another fairy mon that benefits from Jirachi being gone.
Darm won't be forced to run Endure Salac to be able to beat Scarf Jirachi.
Another one of scarf Rachi's victims. Scarf Vish hits super hard will probs rise.
Crustle got slammed by Rachi, weather it was Scarf or ID.

These are only a few though, tons of mons will become better!

The mons that get worse:
This mon is eh now, still good but it was good since Jirachi was a thing.
I never really liked Aegi and now with Jirachi gone, it won't be that good.
One of this mon's niche was beating Rachi reliably, I think most fire types will be getting worse.

Talking about fire-types, in general, are taking a massive hit. Arcanine, Incineroar, Chandelure and others will probably drop since one of their niches was to beat Rachi reliably.


Jirachi going also makes more room for different types of steels! Steels super anti-meta since Darm and Slyveon are on top. Also that we'll be seeing fewer fire types from the loss of Rachi. But if one thing certain; we're all happy that Rachi is finally gone!

 

[LRXC]

Thought I'd drop this video, its Waylaid and Phiwings99 talking about their 1v1 PL Finals Match! Gives some insight on the current SS meta, their thought process during a big tour match, and much more!

 

[DMPancake]

One of this mon's niche was beating Rachi reliably, I think most fire types will be getting worse.

I don't know if I entirely agree with this. Arcanine is still really strong against a lot of pokemon, and has decent or at least winnable matchups against Crustle, Primarina, Darmanitan, and Sylveon. On top of that, it especially crushes Sawk with intimidate + WoW. If Dracovish comes back in full fishious force, then obviously Arcanine takes a hit in usage, but then again, Arcanine would pair well with Dracovish, as Arcanine is good against the stuff that would check Dracovish, like Zeraora and Togekiss.

 

[Here Comes Team Charm!]

Primarina's matchup versus crustle is set-dependent, but as a general rule the bug can't really beat defensive aria+jet. Even weakness policy gimmicks are prediction-reliant, not to mention that they require deliberate underspeeding.

I'm proud to announce a crustle set that, at the cost of some offenses and speed, can safely kill any common primarina, barely any predictions or set knowledge necessary.

Crustle @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 68 Def / 188 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rock Wrecker
- Rock Blast
- Shell Smash
- Counter

(moves other than rock wrecker and shell smash are up to personal taste, the item and EVs are what matters)

When faced with a primarina, shell smash, then attack. That's it, there's nothing more to it.

First things first: does +2 rock wrecker kill any prima?
+2 252 Atk Crustle Rock Wrecker vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 367-433 (100.8 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

More importantly, how does crustle fare against primarina's default counterplay?
0 SpA Mystic Water Primarina Sparkling Aria vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Crustle: 540-636 (192.1 - 226.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Crustle: 237-280 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Mystic Water Primarina Aqua Jet vs. -1 0 HP / 68+ Def Crustle: 78-92 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In other words: primarina will always activate your berry if it clicks a special move T1 (that or it doesn't deal enough to get into aqua jet range), and it'll always fail to kill with aqua jet afterwards. More SpA investment is irrelevant, different items are irrelevant, different coverage moves are mostly irrelevant, only encore can be a problem but it's rare and loses to rock wrecker spam anyway (not to mention, who clicks encore versus crustle, when most are banded)?

This set is also neat against the occasional quick attack sylveon (nearly 20% of them!), as well as other priority users (sucker punch celebi?).

Why not use band?
Band deals less damage, simple as that. Also, anti-choice strategies abound in the current meta.

What if primarina is life orb?
Then aqua jet is a 50/50, instead of something you're sure to live. That said, life orb is only used by a few percent and is generally not that great.

Is luring primarina really that valuable?
It's the third most viable pokemon in the meta, and gets used more than anything else now that jirachi and mimikyu are banned. Not to mention, a lot of fwg cores rely on primarina to stop crustle, so something that can beat it can 3-0 many teams.

Does this even work?
It sure does. (by the way, note how in several of those battles crustle 3-0s by teching primarina)

 

[Ehmcee]

Primarina's matchup versus crustle is set-dependent, but as a general rule the bug can't really beat defensive aria+jet. Even weakness policy gimmicks are prediction-reliant, not to mention that they require deliberate underspeeding.

I'm proud to announce a crustle set that, at the cost of some offenses and speed, can safely kill any common primarina, barely any predictions or set knowledge necessary.

Crustle @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 68 Def / 188 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rock Wrecker
- Rock Blast
- Shell Smash
- Counter

(moves other than rock wrecker and shell smash are up to personal taste, the item and EVs are what matters)

When faced with a primarina, shell smash, then attack. That's it, there's nothing more to it.

First things first: does +2 rock wrecker kill any prima?
+2 252 Atk Crustle Rock Wrecker vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 367-433 (100.8 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

More importantly, how does crustle fare against primarina's default counterplay?
0 SpA Mystic Water Primarina Sparkling Aria vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Crustle: 540-636 (192.1 - 226.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Crustle: 237-280 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Mystic Water Primarina Aqua Jet vs. -1 0 HP / 68+ Def Crustle: 78-92 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In other words: primarina will always activate your berry if it clicks a special move T1 (that or it doesn't deal enough to get into aqua jet range), and it'll always fail to kill with aqua jet afterwards. More SpA investment is irrelevant, different items are irrelevant, different coverage moves are mostly irrelevant, only encore can be a problem but it's rare and loses to rock wrecker spam anyway (not to mention, who clicks encore versus crustle anyway)?

This set is also neat against the occasional quick attack sylveon (nearly 20% of them!), as well as other priority users (sucker punch celebi?).

Why not use band?
Band deals less damage, simple as that. Also, anti-choice strategies abound in the current meta.

What if primarina is life orb?
Then aqua jet is a 50/50, instead of something you're sure to live. That said, life orb is only used by a few percent and is generally not that great.

Is luring primarina really that valuable?
It's the third most viable pokemon in the meta, and gets used more than anything else now that jirachi and mimikyu are banned. Not to mention, a lot of fwg cores rely on primarina to stop crustle, so something that can beat it can 3-0 many teams.

Does this even work?
It sure does. (by the way, note how in several of those battles crustle 3-0s by teching primarina)

While this is definitely a very cool set and should beat Primarina, what stops Primarina from encoring you? Getting stuck into shell smash makes you lose, so you'd be inclined to rock wrecker since it 2hkos, but if Prim predicts that, it can just attack.
Making this MU a 50/50 vs Encore Primarina

 

[Morgan]

While this is definitely a very cool set and should beat Primarina, what stops Primarina from encoring you? Getting stuck into shell smash makes you lose, so you'd be inclined to rock wrecker since it 2hkos, but if Prim predicts that, it can just attack.
Making this MU a 50/50 vs Encore Primarina

you are initially slower than the primarina, so they never get a chance to encore you.

 

[Ehmcee]

you are initially slower than the primarina, so they never get a chance to encore you.

Crustle here has 173 speed, while no speed prim has 156, unless you're running super speedy prim, you don't outspeed.