Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[STABLE]

Mimikyu Match-Ups: an unbiased analysis

alright, civilised discussion and theorycrafting are cool in itself but let's use a way of objectively demonstrating Mimikyu's strength: Match-Up Charts.
Match-up Charts are ultimately the actual way 1v1 works, more so than in other tiers. Every single Pokemon, when posed against another, either wins or loses (without counting 50/50s and hax), so MU charts are ideally the basis of the Viability Rankings and of the tier itself.

strike-through means it wins
underlined means it's either a 50/50 or Set Dependant

Cursekyu

I'm using the standard 252 Atk 252+ Spe Salac Berry set with Phantom Force for this one.
Its Match-Ups are very weird so don't come at me if Curse Imprision Timid Pumpkaboo-Small wins and I didn't include it

S Rank
Jirachi this bitch needs one flinch to win

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar

A+ Rank
Sylveon sylv needs to win the 50/50 t1 and get two sleep turns

A Rank
Dracovish even rock tomb roseli, you can just Sub t1
Dragapult Phantom Force has a 50% to OHKO if it's not SubDisable

A- Rank
Arcanine the stall MU is weird and I don't know it, but constant Curse damage + Phantom Force/Protect makes it run out of Morning Sun PP
Corsola-Galar same deal but w/ Rest, it dies once it wants to heal
Corviknight tauntroost makes it die
Crustle
Haxorus
Incineroar should beat non-band
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora 50/50 whether they Taunt or not

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace
Excadrill
Hydreigon you L to timid scarf which barely exists
Kyurem
Mandibuzz same deal as corvi
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss flinch hax

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic
Rhyperior
Rillaboom this mon runs drum beating taunt to win against Mimikyu 100% of the time but still gets denied by sub t1
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon
Durant
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi
Darmanitan
Diggersby loses to scarf wins otherwise
Gardevoir
Gyarados
Rotom-Mow
Terrakion loses to scarf
Togedemaru speedtie on nuzzle
Type: Null it's gonna run out of Rests eventually

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt banded jet doesnt do enough
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon I think
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

Choice Band

Bulky Band is better but I'm gonna use the standard 252 Speed 252+ Atk set as benchmark

S Rank
Jirachi

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar some darmG users have been bulking specifically for this lately which is not cool on a 252 252 HO mon

A+ Rank
Sylveon

A Rank
Dracovish
Dragapult subdisable

A- Rank
Arcanine
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Crustle it needs 5 rock blast hits
Haxorus
Incineroar
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic protect wins
Rhyperior
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax a 70/30 mimi favor
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon unless its modest specs or some garbage you lose
Durant gl hitting two iron heads 36/64
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi subseed stall wins, offensive loses
Darmanitan takes recoil from fblitz
Diggersby
Gardevoir
Gyarados with no bulk phantom force has a 60% to 2hko
Rotom-Mow stall is almost never used with mow, but it's the only one that wins
Terrakion
Togedemaru
Type: Null

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine you need to be scarf icicle spear and get 5 hits to win
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

Life Orb

S Rank
Jirachi one flinch q.q

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar

A+ Rank
Sylveon

A Rank
Dracovish
Dragapult

A- Rank
Arcanine beat stall lose to band
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Crustle
Haxorus
Incineroar my band set wins, others I'm not too sure
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora unless its like bulky or smth, Play Rough into Sneak should kill after LO damage

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace weird MU, Mimikyu needs to win too many 50/50s in a row to win
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss one flinch q.q

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic
Rhyperior
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon same deal as banded
Durant 64/36
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi
Darmanitan
Diggersby
Gardevoir
Gyarados
Rotom-Mow
Terrakion
Togedemaru
Type: Null

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine same deal as band
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

Alright, now just for the sake of blind match-up analysis, I'm gonna overlap these MU charts together.

MUs Overlapped

S Rank
Jirachi

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar some darmG users have been bulking specifically for this lately which is not cool on a 252 252 HO mon

A+ Rank
Sylveon

A Rank
Dracovish
Dragapult

A- Rank
Arcanine
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Crustle
Haxorus
Incineroar
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic
Rhyperior
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon
Durant
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi
Darmanitan
Diggersby
Gardevoir
Gyarados
Rotom-Mow
Terrakion
Togedemaru
Type: Null

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

I didn't include Choice Scarf for simplicty, as it's over-all considered its worst set, although it's still a decent set.


Now, would you look at that! Whenever facing a Mimikyu without knowing the set, the amount of Pokemon that can counter it effectively is reduced to 12:
Aromatisse, which sacrifices bulk to win the MU
Jirachi, which has to rely on a 60% flinch to win, and still loses to CB Sneak Mimikyu (not included in the MU chart for simplicity)
Corviknight, one of the few reliable MUs, but it still loses to the Mental Herb variant of the Curse set
Haxorus, which has to hit a 75% accuracy move, and unless it runs jolly Scarf it loses to Scarf Mimikyu
Incineroar, which has to run an unflexible Choice Band set that gives up a huge amount of opportunity cost
Whimsicott, which has to guess whether the set is Curse or Band bc otherwise it loses, and still doesnt win against the Mental Herb Curse set
Avalugg, that can still get unlucky with Icicle Spears and lose
Cinderace, that still has to win a few mind games against LO and loses to Scarf
Excadrill, a mon that is not actually that good in the current metagame but gets pushed to its rank simply because it can beat Mimikyu very reliably
Steelix, again unreliable multi-hits, and has to run Choice Band
Cloyster, bad mon with a curious niche, and unless properly EV'd it doesnt even beat Band Mimikyu.
Gigalith, who might not even win against all sets, but multi-hits hehe.

Looking at Older 1v1 Gens, mons that are in the S tier have multiple viable 100% reliable counters, and a satisfying amount of Pokemon that are able to check its most common sets. A lot of people like to make the Dragonite comparison but that mon pales in comparison to how much of an issue Mimikyu is.
Considering how the 1v1 metagame works, guessing sets at preview is a skill that has to be mastered and one of the hardships of the metagame itself. Once the set is revealed, the game is most likely already over, so you can't count on knowing the set beforehand. Thus we are left to a very very few amount of select viable counters, which most are not even 100% reliable, and that severely limit building. Not to talk about how most of these still lose to sets like Charm stall (which is not a real set, although it should, given how Mimikyu has a good speed tier, passable bulk, very good defensive typing and Disguise, which is the one of the trifecta of ultimate stall abilities (Disguise, Unaware, Battle Armor).

Such being said, I don't think there's more to be said. This mon is absolutely disgusting in the current metagame and needs to go ASAP. It is absolutely deserving of a quickban but I would be fine with a suspect (just to make the no-ban advocators happy that they "had a chance to keep in the tier". C'mon buddy, are you blindfolded or a masochist? Just let this Pokemon die already). And for the love of God, do it immediately after PL, don't wait until Ladder Tour just to ruin another tournament.
Regarding the "wait until DLC argument"... what? Why would you keep an extremely unhealthy Pokemon in the metagame in the hope that a DLC that comes in several months is gonna add enough counters to it to the game to make it less toxic. Even if we were to wait for DLC I can guarantee the number of counters in relation to the number of viable new arrival isn't gonna be high enough for people to wanna keep Mimikyu in the tier. And anyway we can just re-suspect it when the time comes, there's no harm in that.

P.S. This post took me a long amount of time to make and it almost certainly isn't perfect, unless there's a major flaw in the post you wanna critique, please refrain from pointing out small imperfections, it doesn't help to the discussion

TL;DR Mimikyu has no viable counter get it out of the tier already

 

[oookkk]

Mimikyu Match-Ups: an unbiased analysis

alright, civilised discussion and theorycrafting are cool in itself but let's use a way of objectively demonstrating Mimikyu's strength: Match-Up Charts.
Match-up Charts are ultimately the actual way 1v1 works, more so than in other tiers. Every single Pokemon, when posed against another, either wins or loses (without counting 50/50s and hax), so MU charts are ideally the basis of the Viability Rankings and of the tier itself.

strike-through means it wins
underlined means it's either a 50/50 or Set Dependant

Cursekyu

I'm using the standard 252 Atk 252+ Spe Salac Berry set with Phantom Force for this one.
Its Match-Ups are very weird so don't come at me if Curse Imprision Timid Pumpkaboo-Small wins and I didn't include it

S Rank
Jirachi this bitch needs one flinch to win

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar

A+ Rank
Sylveon sylv needs to win the 50/50 t1 and get two sleep turns

A Rank
Dracovish even rock tomb roseli, you can just Sub t1
Dragapult Phantom Force has a 50% to OHKO if it's not SubDisable

A- Rank
Arcanine the stall MU is weird and I don't know it, but constant Curse damage + Phantom Force/Protect makes it run out of Morning Sun PP
Corsola-Galar same deal but w/ Rest, it dies once it wants to heal
Corviknight tauntroost makes it die
Crustle
Haxorus
Incineroar should beat non-band
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora 50/50 whether they Taunt or not

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace
Excadrill
Hydreigon you L to timid scarf which barely exists
Kyurem
Mandibuzz same deal as corvi
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss flinch hax

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic
Rhyperior
Rillaboom this mon runs drum beating taunt to win against Mimikyu 100% of the time but still gets denied by sub t1
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon
Durant
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi
Darmanitan
Diggersby loses to scarf wins otherwise
Gardevoir
Gyarados
Rotom-Mow
Terrakion loses to scarf
Togedemaru speedtie on nuzzle
Type: Null it's gonna run out of Rests eventually

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt banded jet doesnt do enough
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon I think
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

Choice Band

Bulky Band is better but I'm gonna use the standard 252 Speed 252+ Atk set as benchmark

S Rank
Jirachi

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar some darmG users have been bulking specifically for this lately which is not cool on a 252 252 HO mon

A+ Rank
Sylveon

A Rank
Dracovish
Dragapult subdisable

A- Rank
Arcanine
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Crustle it needs 5 rock blast hits
Haxorus
Incineroar
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic protect wins
Rhyperior
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax a 70/30 mimi favor
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon unless its modest specs or some garbage you lose
Durant gl hitting two iron heads 36/64
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi subseed stall wins, offensive loses
Darmanitan takes recoil from fblitz
Diggersby
Gardevoir
Gyarados with no bulk phantom force has a 60% to 2hko
Rotom-Mow stall is almost never used with mow, but it's the only one that wins
Terrakion
Togedemaru
Type: Null

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine you need to be scarf icicle spear and get 5 hits to win
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

Life Orb

S Rank
Jirachi one flinch q.q

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar

A+ Rank
Sylveon

A Rank
Dracovish
Dragapult

A- Rank
Arcanine beat stall lose to band
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Crustle
Haxorus
Incineroar my band set wins, others I'm not too sure
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora unless its like bulky or smth, Play Rough into Sneak should kill after LO damage

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace weird MU, Mimikyu needs to win too many 50/50s in a row to win
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss one flinch q.q

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic
Rhyperior
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon same deal as banded
Durant 64/36
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi
Darmanitan
Diggersby
Gardevoir
Gyarados
Rotom-Mow
Terrakion
Togedemaru
Type: Null

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine same deal as band
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

Alright, now just for the sake of blind match-up analysis, I'm gonna overlap these MU charts together.

MUs Overlapped

S Rank
Jirachi

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar some darmG users have been bulking specifically for this lately which is not cool on a 252 252 HO mon

A+ Rank
Sylveon

A Rank
Dracovish
Dragapult

A- Rank
Arcanine
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Crustle
Haxorus
Incineroar
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic
Rhyperior
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon
Durant
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi
Darmanitan
Diggersby
Gardevoir
Gyarados
Rotom-Mow
Terrakion
Togedemaru
Type: Null

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

I didn't include Choice Scarf for simplicty, as it's over-all considered its worst set, although it's still a decent set.


Now, would you look at that! Whenever facing a Mimikyu without knowing the set, the amount of Pokemon that can counter it effectively is reduced to 12:
Aromatisse, which sacrifices bulk to win the MU and doesn't even win against the 252 HP cursekyu variant
Jirachi, which has to rely on a 60% flinch to win, and still loses to CB Sneak Mimikyu (not included in the MU chart for simplicity)
Corviknight, one of the few reliable MUs, but it still loses to the Mental Herb variant of the Curse set
Haxorus, which has to hit a 75% accuracy move, and unless it runs jolly Scarf it loses to Scarf Mimikyu
Incineroar, which has to run an unflexible Choice Band set that gives up a huge amount of opportunity cost
Whimsicott, which has to guess whether the set is Curse or Band bc otherwise it loses, and still doesnt win against the Mental Herb Curse set
Avalugg, that can still get unlucky with Icicle Spears and lose
Cinderace, that still has to win a few mind games against LO and loses to Scarf
Excadrill, a mon that is not actually that good in the current metagame but gets pushed to its rank simply because it can beat Mimikyu very reliably
Steelix, again unreliable multi-hits, and has to run Choice Band
Cloyster, bad mon with a curious niche, and unless properly EV'd it doesnt even beat Band Mimikyu.
Gigalith, who might not even win against all sets, but multi-hits hehe.

Looking at Older 1v1 Gens, mons that are in the S tier have multiple viable 100% reliable counters, and a satisfying amount of Pokemon that are able to check its most common sets. A lot of people like to make the Dragonite comparison but that mon pales in comparison to how much of an issue Mimikyu is.
Considering how the 1v1 metagame works, guessing sets at preview is a skill that has to be mastered and one of the hardships of the metagame itself. Once the set is revealed, the game is most likely already over, so you can't count on knowing the set beforehand. Thus we are left to a very very few amount of select viable counters, which most are not even 100% reliable, and that severely limit building. Not to talk about how most of these still lose to sets like Charm stall (which is not a real set, although it should, given how Mimikyu has a good speed tier, passable bulk, very good defensive typing and Disguise, which is the one of the trifecta of ultimate stall abilities (Disguise, Unaware, Battle Armor).

Such being said, I don't think there's more to be said. This mon is absolutely disgusting in the current metagame and needs to go ASAP. It is absolutely deserving of a quickban but I would be fine with a suspect (just to make the no-ban advocators happy that they "had a chance to keep in the tier". C'mon buddy, are you blindfolded or a masochist? Just let this Pokemon die already). And for the love of God, do it immediately after PL, don't wait until Ladder Tour just to ruin another tournament.
Regarding the "wait until DLC argument"... what? Why would you keep an extremely unhealthy Pokemon in the metagame in the hope that a DLC that comes in several months is gonna add enough counters to it to the game to make it less toxic. Even if we were to wait for DLC I can guarantee the number of counters in relation to the number of viable new arrival isn't gonna be high enough for people to wanna keep Mimikyu in the tier. And anyway we can just re-suspect it when the time comes, there's no harm in that.

P.S. This post took me a long amount of time to make and it almost certainly isn't perfect, unless there's a major flaw in the post you wanna critique, please refrain from pointing out small imperfections, it doesn't help to the discussion

TL;DR Mimikyu has no viable counter get it out of the tier already

i think mimikyu has several viable counters including avalugg,inciniroar,steelix,whimsicott,jirachi,corviknight,haxorus,and zeraora.

 

[zxgzxg]

i think mimikyu has several viable counters including avalugg,inciniroar,steelix,whimsicott,jirachi,corviknight,haxorus,and zeraora.

Those mons are viable, but, as stableprince said, some of them can't beat every mimikyu set 100% of the time or sacrifice flexibility to beat it

 

[oookkk]

Those mons are viable, but, as stableprince said, some of them can't beat every mimikyu set 100% of the time, unlike other S-tier mons in past gens

they beat mimikyu sets 100% of the time lol unless some really wacky unset.dont whip out specs or charm mimikyu please
Edit: the jirachi matchup involves prediction and iron head hax so ill remove it

 

[zxgzxg]

they beat mimikyu sets 100% of the time lol unless some really wacky unset

avalugg - if u get unlucky with icicle spears you lose
incin - yeah fine it beats it with flame charge but there's that flexibility thing again
steelix - if u get unlucky with rock blast (which isn't even stab) you lose
whimsi - has to guess if curse or band
rachi - wins unless band shadow sneak
corvi - mental herb doesn't have much usage so ur good
haxorus - 75% acc but I guess its fine
zeraora - beat by salac curse (which has much less usage than lefties but it still exists)

yes, these mons can beat certain sets 100% of the time, but for most of them you have to predict which Mimi set they are
other broken stuff in the past had more 100% counters

 

[oookkk]

avalugg - if u get unlucky with icicle spears you lose
incin - yeah fine it beats it with flame charge but there's that flexibility thing again
steelix - if u get unlucky with rock blast (which isn't even stab) you lose
whimsi - has to guess if curse or band
rachi - wins unless band shadow sneak
corvi - mental herb doesn't have much usage so ur good
haxorus - 75% acc but I guess its fine
zeraora - beat by salac curse (which has much less usage than lefties but it still exists)

yes, these mons can beat certain sets 100% of the time, but for most of them you have to predict which Mimi set they are
other broken stuff in the past had more 100% counters

it always win with icicle spears
flame charge helps against other stuff
rock blast always wins
whimsi taunt t1 and always wins
i already said i gave up rachi and you can bulk band sneak easily
corviknight wins
haxorus wins
zeraora beats salac curse with taunt or knock off
next time, be sure to play these matchups out yourself before talking about them as if you know them

 

[zioziotrip]

it always win with icicle spears

*laughs in charm kyu*

 

[zxgzxg]

it always win with icicle spears
flame charge helps against other stuff
rock blast always wins
whimsi taunt t1 and always wins
i already said i gave up rachi and you can bulk band sneak easily
corviknight wins
haxorus wins
zeraora beats salac curse with taunt or knock off
next time, be sure to play these matchups out yourself before talking about them as if you know them

if corvi gets tricked into taunt u lose
if zera taunts offensive Mimi u lose
once again, unpredictability

 

[oookkk]

if corvi gets tricked into taunt u lose
if zera taunts offensive Mimi u lose
once again, unpredictability

please play this meta more. corvi iron heads t1 every time
zera takes prediction sure, but its pretty easy in team preview

 

[ayedan]

Mimikyu Match-Ups: an unbiased analysis

alright, civilised discussion and theorycrafting are cool in itself but let's use a way of objectively demonstrating Mimikyu's strength: Match-Up Charts.
Match-up Charts are ultimately the actual way 1v1 works, more so than in other tiers. Every single Pokemon, when posed against another, either wins or loses (without counting 50/50s and hax), so MU charts are ideally the basis of the Viability Rankings and of the tier itself.

strike-through means it wins
underlined means it's either a 50/50 or Set Dependant

Cursekyu

I'm using the standard 252 Atk 252+ Spe Salac Berry set with Phantom Force for this one.
Its Match-Ups are very weird so don't come at me if Curse Imprision Timid Pumpkaboo-Small wins and I didn't include it

S Rank
Jirachi this bitch needs one flinch to win

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar

A+ Rank
Sylveon sylv needs to win the 50/50 t1 and get two sleep turns

A Rank
Dracovish even rock tomb roseli, you can just Sub t1
Dragapult Phantom Force has a 50% to OHKO if it's not SubDisable

A- Rank
Arcanine the stall MU is weird and I don't know it, but constant Curse damage + Phantom Force/Protect makes it run out of Morning Sun PP
Corsola-Galar same deal but w/ Rest, it dies once it wants to heal
Corviknight tauntroost makes it die
Crustle
Haxorus
Incineroar should beat non-band
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora 50/50 whether they Taunt or not

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace
Excadrill
Hydreigon you L to timid scarf which barely exists
Kyurem
Mandibuzz same deal as corvi
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss flinch hax

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic
Rhyperior
Rillaboom this mon runs drum beating taunt to win against Mimikyu 100% of the time but still gets denied by sub t1
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon
Durant
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi
Darmanitan
Diggersby loses to scarf wins otherwise
Gardevoir
Gyarados
Rotom-Mow
Terrakion loses to scarf
Togedemaru speedtie on nuzzle
Type: Null it's gonna run out of Rests eventually

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt banded jet doesnt do enough
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon I think
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

Choice Band

Bulky Band is better but I'm gonna use the standard 252 Speed 252+ Atk set as benchmark

S Rank
Jirachi

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar some darmG users have been bulking specifically for this lately which is not cool on a 252 252 HO mon

A+ Rank
Sylveon

A Rank
Dracovish
Dragapult subdisable

A- Rank
Arcanine
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Crustle it needs 5 rock blast hits
Haxorus
Incineroar
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic protect wins
Rhyperior
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax a 70/30 mimi favor
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon unless its modest specs or some garbage you lose
Durant gl hitting two iron heads 36/64
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi subseed stall wins, offensive loses
Darmanitan takes recoil from fblitz
Diggersby
Gardevoir
Gyarados with no bulk phantom force has a 60% to 2hko
Rotom-Mow stall is almost never used with mow, but it's the only one that wins
Terrakion
Togedemaru
Type: Null

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine you need to be scarf icicle spear and get 5 hits to win
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

Life Orb

S Rank
Jirachi one flinch q.q

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar

A+ Rank
Sylveon

A Rank
Dracovish
Dragapult

A- Rank
Arcanine beat stall lose to band
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Crustle
Haxorus
Incineroar my band set wins, others I'm not too sure
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora unless its like bulky or smth, Play Rough into Sneak should kill after LO damage

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace weird MU, Mimikyu needs to win too many 50/50s in a row to win
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss one flinch q.q

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic
Rhyperior
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon same deal as banded
Durant 64/36
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi
Darmanitan
Diggersby
Gardevoir
Gyarados
Rotom-Mow
Terrakion
Togedemaru
Type: Null

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine same deal as band
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

Alright, now just for the sake of blind match-up analysis, I'm gonna overlap these MU charts together.

MUs Overlapped

S Rank
Jirachi

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar some darmG users have been bulking specifically for this lately which is not cool on a 252 252 HO mon

A+ Rank
Sylveon

A Rank
Dracovish
Dragapult

A- Rank
Arcanine
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Crustle
Haxorus
Incineroar
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic
Rhyperior
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon
Durant
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi
Darmanitan
Diggersby
Gardevoir
Gyarados
Rotom-Mow
Terrakion
Togedemaru
Type: Null

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

I didn't include Choice Scarf for simplicty, as it's over-all considered its worst set, although it's still a decent set.


Now, would you look at that! Whenever facing a Mimikyu without knowing the set, the amount of Pokemon that can counter it effectively is reduced to 12:
Aromatisse, which sacrifices bulk to win the MU
Jirachi, which has to rely on a 60% flinch to win, and still loses to CB Sneak Mimikyu (not included in the MU chart for simplicity)
Corviknight, one of the few reliable MUs, but it still loses to the Mental Herb variant of the Curse set
Haxorus, which has to hit a 75% accuracy move, and unless it runs jolly Scarf it loses to Scarf Mimikyu
Incineroar, which has to run an unflexible Choice Band set that gives up a huge amount of opportunity cost
Whimsicott, which has to guess whether the set is Curse or Band bc otherwise it loses, and still doesnt win against the Mental Herb Curse set
Avalugg, that can still get unlucky with Icicle Spears and lose
Cinderace, that still has to win a few mind games against LO and loses to Scarf
Excadrill, a mon that is not actually that good in the current metagame but gets pushed to its rank simply because it can beat Mimikyu very reliably
Steelix, again unreliable multi-hits, and has to run Choice Band
Cloyster, bad mon with a curious niche, and unless properly EV'd it doesnt even beat Band Mimikyu.
Gigalith, who might not even win against all sets, but multi-hits hehe.

Looking at Older 1v1 Gens, mons that are in the S tier have multiple viable 100% reliable counters, and a satisfying amount of Pokemon that are able to check its most common sets. A lot of people like to make the Dragonite comparison but that mon pales in comparison to how much of an issue Mimikyu is.
Considering how the 1v1 metagame works, guessing sets at preview is a skill that has to be mastered and one of the hardships of the metagame itself. Once the set is revealed, the game is most likely already over, so you can't count on knowing the set beforehand. Thus we are left to a very very few amount of select viable counters, which most are not even 100% reliable, and that severely limit building. Not to talk about how most of these still lose to sets like Charm stall (which is not a real set, although it should, given how Mimikyu has a good speed tier, passable bulk, very good defensive typing and Disguise, which is the one of the trifecta of ultimate stall abilities (Disguise, Unaware, Battle Armor).

Such being said, I don't think there's more to be said. This mon is absolutely disgusting in the current metagame and needs to go ASAP. It is absolutely deserving of a quickban but I would be fine with a suspect (just to make the no-ban advocators happy that they "had a chance to keep in the tier". C'mon buddy, are you blindfolded or a masochist? Just let this Pokemon die already). And for the love of God, do it immediately after PL, don't wait until Ladder Tour just to ruin another tournament.
Regarding the "wait until DLC argument"... what? Why would you keep an extremely unhealthy Pokemon in the metagame in the hope that a DLC that comes in several months is gonna add enough counters to it to the game to make it less toxic. Even if we were to wait for DLC I can guarantee the number of counters in relation to the number of viable new arrival isn't gonna be high enough for people to wanna keep Mimikyu in the tier. And anyway we can just re-suspect it when the time comes, there's no harm in that.

P.S. This post took me a long amount of time to make and it almost certainly isn't perfect, unless there's a major flaw in the post you wanna critique, please refrain from pointing out small imperfections, it doesn't help to the discussion

TL;DR Mimikyu has no viable counter get it out of the tier already

Before this post starts, I wanna make it clear I wouldn’t mind a mimikyu suspect at all but, stable just has a lot of things wrong with his post. If I’m being honest, most of this just isn’t true. You have some solid points but taking away from your TL;DR, you don’t quite understand that Mimikyu has several counters. You listed off 12 “counters” as you say and give pretty flawed descriptions on how mimikyu can “beat them.” For instance, you say that Aromatisse is sacrificing bulk to beat mimikyu. What bulk is it sacrificing exactly? Personally, I’ve never seen an Aromatisse not run crazy amounts of bulk for its main Trick Room/Encore/Disable/Moonblast set. Also, for Incineroar, you only mention your Banded set but never mention Flame Charge nor Taunt, both of which have 61% usage and 27% usage on Incineroar respectively. Cloyster very much reliably beats mimikyu as even banded Wood Hammer doesn’t OHKO 0 HP or Defense EV Cloyster while Adamant Scarf Icicle Spear just OHKOS/2HKOS all mimikyus. In your whimsicott analysis, you say that it has to predict Curse or Band but, fully physically defensive Taunt Whimsicott beats both, even if you taunt turn 1 and they click banded Play Rough. You list off Mental Herb Curse as a set as well yet, Mental Herb has less than 1% usage in all of ladder lol... Forgetting to talk about Pokémon like Klingklang (who with gear grind counters mimikyu) shows you that you have more counters than you present. Overall, you state yourself that mimikyu has several counters but proceed to use false information, a “fact” that doesn’t make sense (i.e aroma sacrificing bulk), or just straight up forgetting common sets/moves that certain Pokémon use to beat Mimikyu. You have good information, you just don’t know how to back up what you say with actual facts instead of off the dome ideas.

 

[Eriey]

Mimikyu Match-Ups: an unbiased analysis

alright, civilised discussion and theorycrafting are cool in itself but let's use a way of objectively demonstrating Mimikyu's strength: Match-Up Charts.
Match-up Charts are ultimately the actual way 1v1 works, more so than in other tiers. Every single Pokemon, when posed against another, either wins or loses (without counting 50/50s and hax), so MU charts are ideally the basis of the Viability Rankings and of the tier itself.

strike-through means it wins
underlined means it's either a 50/50 or Set Dependant

I didn't include Choice Scarf for simplicty, as it's over-all considered its worst set, although it's still a decent set.

Now, would you look at that! Whenever facing a Mimikyu without knowing the set, the amount of Pokemon that can counter it effectively is reduced to 12:
Aromatisse, which sacrifices bulk to win the MU
Jirachi, which has to rely on a 60% flinch to win, and still loses to CB Sneak Mimikyu (not included in the MU chart for simplicity)
Corviknight, one of the few reliable MUs, but it still loses to the Mental Herb variant of the Curse set
Haxorus, which has to hit a 75% accuracy move, and unless it runs jolly Scarf it loses to Scarf Mimikyu
Incineroar, which has to run an unflexible Choice Band set that gives up a huge amount of opportunity cost
Whimsicott, which has to guess whether the set is Curse or Band bc otherwise it loses, and still doesnt win against the Mental Herb Curse set
Avalugg, that can still get unlucky with Icicle Spears and lose
Cinderace, that still has to win a few mind games against LO and loses to Scarf
Excadrill, a mon that is not actually that good in the current metagame but gets pushed to its rank simply because it can beat Mimikyu very reliably
Steelix, again unreliable multi-hits, and has to run Choice Band
Cloyster, bad mon with a curious niche, and unless properly EV'd it doesnt even beat Band Mimikyu.
Gigalith, who might not even win against all sets, but multi-hits hehe.

Looking at Older 1v1 Gens, mons that are in the S tier have multiple viable 100% reliable counters, and a satisfying amount of Pokemon that are able to check its most common sets. A lot of people like to make the Dragonite comparison but that mon pales in comparison to how much of an issue Mimikyu is.
Considering how the 1v1 metagame works, guessing sets at preview is a skill that has to be mastered and one of the hardships of the metagame itself. Once the set is revealed, the game is most likely already over, so you can't count on knowing the set beforehand. Thus we are left to a very very few amount of select viable counters, which most are not even 100% reliable, and that severely limit building. Not to talk about how most of these still lose to sets like Charm stall (which is not a real set, although it should, given how Mimikyu has a good speed tier, passable bulk, very good defensive typing and Disguise, which is the one of the trifecta of ultimate stall abilities (Disguise, Unaware, Battle Armor).

Such being said, I don't think there's more to be said. This mon is absolutely disgusting in the current metagame and needs to go ASAP. It is absolutely deserving of a quickban but I would be fine with a suspect (just to make the no-ban advocators happy that they "had a chance to keep in the tier". C'mon buddy, are you blindfolded or a masochist? Just let this Pokemon die already). And for the love of God, do it immediately after PL, don't wait until Ladder Tour just to ruin another tournament.
Regarding the "wait until DLC argument"... what? Why would you keep an extremely unhealthy Pokemon in the metagame in the hope that a DLC that comes in several months is gonna add enough counters to it to the game to make it less toxic. Even if we were to wait for DLC I can guarantee the number of counters in relation to the number of viable new arrival isn't gonna be high enough for people to wanna keep Mimikyu in the tier. And anyway we can just re-suspect it when the time comes, there's no harm in that.

P.S. This post took me a long amount of time to make and it almost certainly isn't perfect, unless there's a major flaw in the post you wanna critique, please refrain from pointing out small imperfections, it doesn't help to the discussion

TL;DR Mimikyu has no viable counter get it out of the tier already

Ping me when implemented

Cursekyu

I'm using the standard 252 Atk 252+ Spe Salac Berry set with Phantom Force for this one.
Its Match-Ups are very weird so don't come at me if Curse Imprision Timid Pumpkaboo-Small wins and I didn't include it

S Rank
Jirachi this bitch needs one flinch to win

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar technically Scarf Icicle Crash does have that 24.3% chance of winning but eh

A+ Rank
Sylveon sylv needs to win the 50/50 t1 and get two sleep turns

A Rank
Dracovish even rock tomb roseli, you can just Sub t1 I would imagine if they're running rock tomb roseli they would actually make sure the rock tomb breaks sub... Technically you have to predict against Rock Tomb Choice Scarf and Rock Blast Choice Band but neither of those really have usage rates, so I'll give you a pass
Dragapult Phantom Force has a 50% to OHKO if it's not SubDisable

A- Rank
Arcanine the stall MU is weird and I don't know it, but constant Curse damage + Phantom Force/Protect makes it run out of Morning Sun PP If they predict the curse it can just use Flamethrower T1, with chances at redemption thanks to Morning Sun. You have to Protect on the Morning Suns (you have one substitute as a bonus)
Corsola-Galar same deal but w/ Rest, it dies once it wants to heal
Corviknight tauntroost makes it die
Crustle
Haxorus
Incineroar should beat non-band It beats non hyperfast but really just band is running hyperfast so you get a pass
Primarina A well played Encore or Substitute can mess you up (non specs obviously) Choice Specs 26.514%
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora 50/50 whether they Taunt or not As long as they predict the set Knock Off 40.481% (4th highest)

B+ Rank
Aegislash Aegislash can actually hyperbrain it and use King's Shield on the first turn that you use Phantom force in order to be able to attack after the Phantom Force, then Weakness Policy activated Shadow Sneak for the kill. Using Curse or Protect is completely unviable, so this is dependent on the ability to Fake out King's Shield with Sub.
Avalugg
Cinderace
Excadrill
Hydreigon you L to timid scarf which barely exists Not scarf, just Timid in general which understably has a really high usage O_O
Kyurem Same story as Arcanine except Kyurem has even more chances
Mandibuzz same deal as corvi
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss flinch hax

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon A lot worse than Arcanine and Kyurem at this, as it actually takes over 25% from Phantom Force and can't kill without a Scald Burn
Golisopod AQUA JET after Disguise and Curse damage
Kommo-o
Milotic
Rhyperior
Rillaboom this mon runs drum beating taunt to win against Mimikyu 100% of the time but still gets denied by sub t1 Was this a typo or something? It can just spam Drum Beating and face tank the Phantom Force thanks to Leftovers https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1096953905 I was fortunate enough to get a max roll 252 Atk Mimikyu Phantom Force vs. 240 HP / 56+ Def Rillaboom: 108-127 (26.9 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar Excuse me, what the [redacted] SANDSTORM prevents sub. They don't even have to be fast on this one, they just have to have an attacking move

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure You actually just go for the 75% OHKO on Phantom Force
Dracozolt
Duraludon
Durant
Ferrothorn Bullet Seed 6.687% I'm kidding this gets a pass
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo Technically 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 86-102 (34.2 - 40.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO this roll on Specs Icy Wind but whatever
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi Trick 50/50 Trick 48.419%
Darmanitan Also Trick 50/50, Trick 26.344%
Diggersby loses to scarf wins otherwise
Gardevoir
Gyarados With the power of Bulldoze, Gyarados can win 100%
Rotom-Mow
Terrakion loses to scarf or rock tomb
Togedemaru speedtie on nuzzle
Type: Null it's gonna run out of Rests eventually

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp Rock Tomb baby (seriously why is this still C I only nommed it because it beat Mew + Sableye and now Dracovish can run Low Kick
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt banded jet doesnt do enough What are you smoking 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 164-194 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO Curse + Disguise that's a super dead Mimikyu
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola Encore can mess you up
Obstagoon I think
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally EXCUSE ME, WHAT THE [REDACTED] I FEEL PERSONALLY ATTACKED
Toxapex
Toxtricity
Umbreon
Vaporeon Slan beep
Venusaur

The rest of the VR is honestly just irrelevant troll mons

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

Choice Band

Bulky Band is better but I'm gonna use the standard 252 Speed 252+ Atk set as benchmark

S Rank
Jirachi

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar some darmG users have been bulking specifically for this lately which is not cool on a 252 252 HO mon 252+ Atk Choice Band Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Darmanitan-Galar: 303-357 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO uhhhhhh lose to scarf

A+ Rank
Sylveon Yawn

A Rank
Dracovish
Dragapult subdisable

A- Rank
Arcanine
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Crustle it needs 5 rock blast hits I mean you could do that or you could just predict the Trick and Shell Smash
Haxorus
Incineroar
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora

B+ Rank
Aegislash 252+ Atk Choice Band Mimikyu Phantom Force vs. 240 HP / 20 Aegislash-Shield: 278-330 (86.6 - 102.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO If they predict band they can King's Shield T1 and then Weakness Policy Activated Ball->Sneak, and go for the roll and go straight to Sneak on Trick 0 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 210-248 (83.6 - 98.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Disguise damage
Avalugg
Cinderace
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic protect wins
Rhyperior 252+ Atk Choice Band Mimikyu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 402-474 (92.6 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO AKA if they run any more defense u gon die
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax a 70/30 mimi favor
Steelix
Tyranitar In this case they would actually need the Mimikyu beater

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon unless its modest specs or some garbage you lose
Durant gl hitting two iron heads 36/64 idk what this fraction is but yeah it's 64% plus significant flinch chance so basically it's a Durant win
Ferrothorn Gyro Ball
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi subseed stall wins, offensive loses
Darmanitan takes recoil from fblitz
Diggersby
Gardevoir
Gyarados with no bulk phantom force has a 60% to 2hko Why are they no bulk no Bulldoze Gyarados
Rotom-Mow stall is almost never used with mow, but it's the only one that wins
Terrakion
Togedemaru
Type: Null

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp Rock Tomb or just play around Trick with Sucker Punch
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine you need to be scarf icicle spear and get 5 hits to win Or just physdef band icicle spear, but eh
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally How did you get this one right but mess the other one up
Toxapex
Toxtricity Nuzzle
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

Rest are irrelevant

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

Life Orb

S Rank
Jirachi one flinch q.q

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar

A+ Rank
Sylveon

A Rank
Dracovish
Dragapult

A- Rank
Arcanine beat stall lose to band lol no
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Crustle
Haxorus
Incineroar my band set wins, others I'm not too sure lol no
Primarina +2 252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 144 Def Primarina: 320-376 (88.1 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO 112+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 216-255 (86 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Disguise
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora unless its like bulky or smth, Play Rough into Sneak should kill after LO damage You need to be adamant to have a pretty good chance to kill band zera, and even then they can just run some bulk

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace weird MU, Mimikyu needs to win too many 50/50s in a row to win
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Wash Kee Berry stall needs four turns to Wisp-> triple tbolt and Kee Berry will make it live two SD to two Play Rough, so your best chance is Play Rough -> SD -> Double Play Rough. +2 252+ Atk Life Orb burned Mimikyu Play Rough vs. +1 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 75-90 (24.7 - 29.7%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO which comes out like this with max roll on the first Play Rough. Not going to worry about accuracy because you can probably get away with Phantom Force
Togekiss one flinch q.q

B Rank
Aromatisse
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon Acid Armor 44.908% go for the Scald Burn! (unless Wood Hammer I suppose, but you'd have to give up Swords Dance)
Golisopod
Kommo-o
Milotic Haze (unless Wood Hammer)
Rhyperior
Rillaboom With the power of Protect
Rotom-Heat Same as Wash (stall)
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar You actually need the Mimikyu beater set for this, admittedly

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon same deal as banded
Durant 64/36 idk what this fraction is, except this time it's flipped
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi
Darmanitan
Diggersby
Gardevoir
Gyarados How did you get this one right
Rotom-Mow
Terrakion
Togedemaru Nuzzle
Type: Null +6 252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. +6 248 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Type: Null: 95-113 (24.1 - 28.7%) -- 97.2% chance to 4HKO they can just wait for you to die of Life Orb

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp Rock Tomb
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine same deal as band^2 except this time you don't even get Wood Hammer
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity Nuzzle
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur

Irrelevant

C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

Alright, now just for the sake of blind match-up analysis, I'm gonna overlap these MU charts together.

MUs Overlapped

S Rank
Jirachi

S- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar some darmG users have been bulking specifically for this lately which is not cool on a 252 252 HO mon

A+ Rank
Sylveon Best thing is the Salac Berry 50/50 with the Yawn roll only if you use Curse, plus Trick 50/50

A Rank
Dracovish
Dragapult

A- Rank
Arcanine no, as long as they predict set/Trick
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Crustle 50/50 on band Trick
Haxorus
Incineroar
Primarina
Sawk
Whimsicott
Zeraora 100 def band just has to predict Salac and use Knock Off

B+ Rank
Aegislash
Avalugg
Cinderace
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Wash
Togekiss

B Rank
Aromatisse typo?
Blastoise
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Golisopod AQUA JET
Kommo-o
Milotic
Rhyperior Wins with Band Rock Blast a bit of Defense on top of HP to tank Wood Hammer
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Snorlax
Steelix
Tyranitar Expert Belt actually loses to Scarf, so ok

B- Rank
Bewear
Chandelure
Dracozolt
Duraludon
Durant
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Goodra
Grimmsnarl
Keldeo
Weezing-Galar

C+ Rank
Celebi
Darmanitan
Diggersby
Gardevoir
Gyarados Bulldoze bois
Rotom-Mow
Terrakion
Togedemaru Speed tie on Nuzzle against Salac Berry, except they can galaxy brain it and predict the subs aegislash style
Type: Null

C Rank
Alcremie
Appletun
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dubwool
Hitmonlee
Inteleon
Mamoswine Specific sets win, although no one really uses this mon so whatever
Ninetales
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Reuniclus
Scrafty
Silvally
Toxapex
Toxtricity Nuzzle
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venusaur


Who cares
C- Rank
Araquanid
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Copperajah
Drifblim
Eiscue
Gigalith
Hippowdon
Indeedee-Female
Ludicolo
Pyukumuku
Sirfetch'd
Torkoal
Virizion
Weavile

D Rank
Charizard
Drampa
Eldegoss
Espeon
Hatterene
Mudsdale
Orbeetle
Quagsire
Sudowoodo
Trevenant
Tsareena
Turtonator
Vikavolt
Wishiwashi

So now we add:
Sylveon 50/50s Curse and Band plus Yawn rng so eh
Arcanine 50/50s on Trick
Crustle 50/50s on Trick

1. Band Zeraora with a bit of Defense just has to predict salac with Knock Off
2. Golisopod
3. Band Rhyperior with a little defense (which it would run anyway for band darm)
4. Rillaboom with Protect
5. Bulldoze Gyarados
5.5 Nuzzle Toxtricity (not counting because everything below C+ is pretty much irrelevant)

So that's 5 more counters, and if we throw out the Gigalith and Cloyster, that brings the counter counter (heh heh) that makes 15
That's 15/57 which is 26.3% of the VR from S to C+ that counters all Mimikyu
For reference, Sylveon has 22 counters from S to C+ with also three sets, Yawn, Quick Attack, and Choice Specs, and Sylveon is considered to be very much fair and balanced
https://pokepast.es/e63fd7aef3882fc5 that's 19 and then Darm, Diggersby, and Togedemaru from C+

Salty Dragonite rant

Dragonite also had 16 (18 if you count Icium Tini and Icium Phero, straight unsets) on a VR that had 1.78 times more mons from S to C+
Counting the straight unsets, that's 18/100 which is 18% of the VR from S to C+ that counters all Dragonite
The "unset opportunity cost sets," Firium and Groundium literally only beat Metagross and Mawile, and then Band could cover everything else those two beat so I included them both in the counter list
Last night I went through every Dragonite counter, and they were: Some form of cheesing around Multiscale (sound familiar?), Porygon2, Avalugg, and hard stall mons.

I've spend 4 hours defiling this, I'll let someone else argue philosophy.
Anyway, I believe Mimikyu should not be banned; it is strong, but not excessively strong

Salty Dragonite Line

and also I'm still salty about Dragonite so if the philosophy of git gud and predict set applies there it should apply here

 

[Tol]

sorry for short post after all these monstrosities but speaking without facts and just straight opinion there isn't very much opportunity cost in running a mimic counter, most of em are just very good in their own right (rachi, cinder, aromatisse, etc)
heres a few objective facts
[13:58] THEHEHEHEH: .usage1630 mimikyu items 1v1
[13:58] *TIBot: Choice Band 43.748% | Life Orb 20.461% | Leftovers 14.553% | Choice Scarf 12.112% | Salac Berry 4.678% | Other 4.449%
salac rly hittin us with the 5% usage rate huh
"I'm using the standard spread with salac" idk how standard it is bro, the only sets you seem likely to see on ladder are band and lorb- that prolly fucks w your mimi vs vr comparison...
also there is a very real opportunity cost with mimik in a way that wasn't really there when it was banned in sm, where you were basically deciding between mimikium cursekyu and twave cursekyu, both of which beat all the things cursekyu did while switching up methods to beat the faster mons... band, lorb, and this "standard" salac curse set all beat different things and there is less overlap than you seem to think (that's prolly conjecture but so are vr comparisons in general). maybe when you're facing mimik you feel like it could be any of these sets but when there isn't a single set other than band that you see even a quarter of the time how threatening can these mixups be? maybe a vr comp with just band and lorb mimic would yield more practical results

also sm kyub was 100x worse than sm dnite or swsh mimik with its versatility and ppl want to free it for some reason lmao
if anything I said was objectively wrong then illuminate me on my stupidity

 

[Here Comes Team Charm!]

I don't think the sylveon comparison is all that great.

Firstly, beating 2/3rds of the meta is a common benchmark for being overpowered: sylveon doesn't pass it but mimikyu does. You're generally making more light of the 15/21 difference than I think you should.

Furthermore, sylveon counters tend to be somewhat more straightforward, in my experience. Slap a random poison/fire/steel type on your team (automatic if you run some of the more common cores), or even just a strong neutral hitter like band dracovish, and chances are it'll beat sylv. You don't specifically plan for sylveon, you plan for fairy-types (and to a lesser extent yawn/strong special hits) in general. With mimikyu, a ton of the stuff that you'd naively expect to beat it loses to one or more sets.

This puts strain on teambuilding in a way that sylveon, and many other popular mons, do not, and it's relevant to take that into consideration.

 

[oookkk]

sorry for short post after all these monstrosities but speaking without facts and just straight opinion there isn't very much opportunity cost in running a mimic counter, most of em are just very good in their own right (rachi, cinder, aromatisse, etc)
heres a few objective facts
[13:58] THEHEHEHEH: .usage1630 mimikyu items 1v1
[13:58] *TIBot: Choice Band 43.748% | Life Orb 20.461% | Leftovers 14.553% | Choice Scarf 12.112% | Salac Berry 4.678% | Other 4.449%
salac rly hittin us with the 5% usage rate huh
"I'm using the standard spread with salac" idk how standard it is bro, the only sets you seem likely to see on ladder are band and lorb- that prolly fucks w your mimi vs vr comparison...
also there is a very real opportunity cost with mimik in a way that wasn't really there when it was banned in sm, where you were basically deciding between mimikium cursekyu and twave cursekyu, both of which beat all the things cursekyu did while switching up methods to beat the faster mons... band, lorb, and this "standard" salac curse set all beat different things and there is less overlap than you seem to think (that's prolly conjecture but so are vr comparisons in general). maybe when you're facing mimik you feel like it could be any of these sets but when there isn't a single set other than band that you see even a quarter of the time how threatening can these mixups be? maybe a vr comp with just band and lorb mimic would yield more practical results

also sm kyub was 100x worse than sm dnite or swsh mimik with its versatility and ppl want to free it for some reason lmao
if anything I said was objectively wrong then illuminate me on my stupidity

salac is THE item to run on curse kyu because it beats faster mons. It is also one of the best speedtraps as mew died and it hard carries in the matchups. No other item is viable on curse exccept maybe white herb. guess you could say salac was the twave kyu of back then.
Play Rough 77.520% | Shadow Sneak 62.467% | Phantom Force 52.284% | Wood Hammer 49.833% | Shadow Claw 34.992% | Trick 25.155% | Substitute 22.298% | Curse 22.057% | Protect 18.270% | Swords Dance 13.974% | Drain Punch 13.789% | Other 7.362%
however curse is not as popular as say, band or scarf but you still gotta consider it.

also the comparison between mimikyu sets today is offensive and curse

 

[oookkk]

I don't think the sylveon comparison is all that great.

Firstly, beating 2/3rds of the meta is a common benchmark for being overpowered: sylveon doesn't pass it but mimikyu does. You're generally making more light of the 15/21 difference than I think you should.

Furthermore, sylveon counters tend to be somewhat more straightforward, in my experience. Slap a random poison/fire/steel type on your team (automatic if you run some of the more common cores), or even just a strong neutral hitter like band dracovish, and chances are it'll beat sylv. You don't specifically plan for sylveon, you plan for fairy-types (and to a lesser extent yawn/strong special hits) in general. With mimikyu, a ton of the stuff that you'd naively expect to beat it loses to one or more sets.

This puts strain on teambuilding in a way that sylveon, and many other popular mons, do not, and it's relevant to take that into consideration.

im not gonna make a comparison chart for jirachi, but i guess that is a mon that could be comparable because it cheeses to many things like how i got flinched 8 times in a row today.

 

[zioziotrip]

I think what a lot of people are overlooking about Kyu is its abilty to adapt to metagame trends. While this is not an exclusive feature it feels like as time goes on Mimi gains more and more good sets and this only makes team preview more of a headache. Mimi’s options are big, and they only keep getting bigger.

Mew is #1
Scarf Kyu is invented.
Mew is now gone, is scarf still good?
Yes. Scarf invalidates most forms of speed control in addition to various stall mons.
Necrozoma Hits the Scene
With WP+Photon Geyser invalidating offensive, Mimi nows has to adapt. The solution: bulky band.
Necrozoma is now gone, is band still good?
While its utility compared to its other sets is limited, it still has the notable attribute of beating Rachi for not much opportunity cost.
People begin to rely on multi-hit moves as a check
If Curse will just get its sub broke, and Kyu’s attacks are not doing enough then I guess Kyu will just have to live the attacks. Enter stage, Kee Charm. You couldn’t ask for a better ability as a stall mon. A free turn to get off a charm means multi-hit moves will not be doing anything near enough to kill Kyu. Yet another few mons added to the“unreliable counter” category.
So what’s the point?
A big thing I’ve seen for the anti-ban argument is that these sets that are “theorized but never used” are irrelevant to discussing the competitiveness of Mimi. I don’t understand this argument at all. This comes down to “Out of sight; Out of mind” where people just aren’t seeing all the Mimi variants so thus they must not be common enough to consider a threat. You just can’t justify going by that reasoning in teambuilding. The reason why is because all the Kyu sets are great and not unset lures like Solar Blade Crustle. If my team is 3-0d by Solar Blade Crustle, whatever. If my team is weak too any of the FIVE Mimi sets you’ve now encountered a massive headache.
There are also two non-arguments that I’ve seen in defense of Mimi.
1. “Dnite was worse.”
This is semantics. It shouldn’t matter when discussing a new case, period. I know smogon has a fetish for following dumbass precedent but every mon should be reviewed on a case by case basis.
2. “Git gud.”
This one feels like gatekeeping. Unfortunately, not everyone can tell sets on preview. Expecting every player to have over-the-moon intuition isn’t fair and I see it being frustrating to entry-level players. Mimi turns 1v1 less into using intuition to gauge plays and teams but more onto relying entirely on instinct.

TL;DR-Mimikyu is too diverse and adapts too well and instead of getting worse overtime, it only adds more and more weapons to its arsenal overtime. Suspect this, please never let it back. Mimi is never a fun or healthy presence for 1v1 and I really doubt DLC will change my mind.

 

[CashKP]

Alright I feel like I am constantly getting attacked over my Dnite statement.

What I was trying to say was they are basically the same. Broken because of unique ability that protects them from damage. They have a multitude of viable sets, which makes team building a pain because you dont know what set everyone is running.

They have literally the exact same issues, the only difference is that SM had more viable Pokemon than we do now. Whether you think that is relevant is neither here nor there. It was just an observation.

Anyway Im going to piggyback of of ZZT's post and use that as a plug to say ADAPT. There are undiscovered sets and spreads out there, look for them and try to make things better.

 

[STABLE]

Alright I feel like I am constantly getting attacked over my Dnite statement.

What I was trying to say was they are basically the same. Broken because of unique ability that protects them from damage. They have a multitude of viable sets, which makes team building a pain because you dont know what set everyone is running.

They have literally the exact same issues, the only difference is that SM had more viable Pokemon than we do now. Whether you think that is relevant is neither here nor there. It was just an observation.

Anyway Im going to piggyback of of ZZT's post and use that as a plug to say ADAPT. There are undiscovered sets and spreads out there, look for them and try to make things better.

alright, release KyuW in the tier and then tell us to adapt cause there's clearly mons that beat it, we just haven't experimented enough.

This is an ironic statement but it sheds light on how the "adapt" argument is one of the stupidest ones I've heard yet. Every single Pokemon in existence has hard counters to it and can be adapted to, it doesn't mean we have to. Most spreads and sets and mons that would theoretically beat Mimikyu are most likely unviable, or they require a lot of opportunity cost to be pulled off. Yes, I could run Adamant Choice Band Mold Breaker Iron Head Hawlucha to beat 3 out of the 5 viable Mimikyu sets, but why the fuck would I? Why would I be forced to run such a ridiculous set when Hawlucha 100% has better options that have by far more winning match-ups? Mimikyu is toxic in the tier and I'd much much much rather appeal for its removal than try to adapt. Adapting is not the answer to this one

 

[IBM]

Here’s some ideas for stuff to beat mimi
Probably semi unviable but at least I’m trying to find counters instead of complaining about it like a little bitch

Mimikyu who

Drapion @ Life Orb
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulldoze
- Cross Poison
- Night Slash
- Knock Off

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Defense
- Rest

Venusaur @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Bulldoze
- Sludge Bomb
- Frenzy Plant
- Substitute

Pangoro @ Roseli Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
Happiness: 160
EVs: 132 HP / 124 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Iron Head
- Bullet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Darkest Lariat

Mamoswine @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulldoze
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Icicle Spear

Lucario @ Expert Belt
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Meteor Mash
- Close Combat
- Iron Defense

 

[CashKP]

alright, release KyuW in the tier and then tell us to adapt cause there's clearly mons that beat it, we just haven't experimented enough.

This is an ironic statement but it sheds light on how the "adapt" argument is one of the stupidest ones I've heard yet. Every single Pokemon in existence has hard counters to it and can be adapted to, it doesn't mean we have to. Most spreads and sets and mons that would theoretically beat Mimikyu are most likely unviable, or they require a lot of opportunity cost to be pulled off. Yes, I could run Adamant Choice Band Mold Breaker Iron Head Hawlucha to beat 3 out of the 5 viable Mimikyu sets, but why the fuck would I? Why would I be forced to run such a ridiculous set when Hawlucha 100% has better options that have by far more winning match-ups? Mimikyu is toxic in the tier and I'd much much much rather appeal for its removal than try to adapt. Adapting is not the answer to this one

That's not what I said. I just meant in general everyone should be trying to adapt the meta. Had nothing to do with mimikyu

 

[STABLE]

That's not what I said. I just meant in general everyone should be trying to adapt the meta. Had nothing to do with mimikyu

ah shit lmfao my bad fam
The whole discussion is about Mimikyu and that post seemed outta place so I just assumed, shoulda paid more attention

 

[zioziotrip]

Here’s some ideas for stuff to beat mimi
Probably semi unviable but at least I’m trying to find counters instead of complaining about it like a little bitch

Mimikyu who

Drapion @ Life Orb
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulldoze
- Cross Poison
- Night Slash
- Knock Off

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Defense
- Rest

Venusaur @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Bulldoze
- Sludge Bomb
- Frenzy Plant
- Substitute

Pangoro @ Roseli Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
Happiness: 160
EVs: 132 HP / 124 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Iron Head
- Bullet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Darkest Lariat

Mamoswine @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulldoze
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Icicle Spear

Lucario @ Expert Belt
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Meteor Mash
- Close Combat
- Iron Defense

dude you shouldn't have to run unmons just because smth is obviously broken and you'll just "adapt." All of these mons have very limited usage outside of Mimi and it shouldn't have to be said, but I guess I have to. Using bottom of the barrel shit is evident of how ludicrous Mimi is. Idk how complaining about it is somehow whiny, the whole point of this thread is to discuss things. Stop whining about my complaining.

In other news, "adapt" is becoming number three on my un-argument list. (ik cash meant smth different but still)
Stable summed this up pretty well. Nothing is unbeatable, metas can always adapt and change but this doesn't mean it's healthy. Mimi has such a stranglehold on the meta and while mons will adapt, it's a two-way street. Mimikyu has and will adapt to new threats. It has many times in the past and it will do so in the future.

Some of your counters aren't even reliable
Drapion-still loses to salac curse
Honedge-I could be wrong but it's a 50/50 if the Mimi is choice or not
Vena-also loses to salac curse
Pangoro-loses to the up and coming kee+charm set, band also has an 18% chance of killing but that's negligible
Mamo-252+ Atk Choice Band Mimikyu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 400-472 (110.8 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lucario-This mon is a joke but sure you win, hurray!

Waiting to find something to suddenly pop up and beat kyu reliably is not going to happen. Kyu has proven itself a menace throughout the gen, I've yet to see a reasonable anti-ban argument. Most anti-ban arguments are semantics of tiering philosophy or just not seeing how broken it is.

I leave you with this question, what does Mimikyu contribute to 1v1, and does it outweigh its negative influence on building & playing?

 

[IBM]

dude you shouldn't have to run unmons just because smth is obviously broken and you'll just "adapt." All of these mons have very limited usage outside of Mimi and it shouldn't have to be said, but I guess I have to. Using bottom of the barrel shit is evident of how ludicrous Mimi is. Idk how complaining about it is somehow whiny, the whole point of this thread is to discuss things. Stop whining about my complaining.

In other news, "adapt" is becoming number three on my un-argument list. (ik cash meant smth different but still)
Stable summed this up pretty well. Nothing is unbeatable, metas can always adapt and change but this doesn't mean it's healthy. Mimi has such a stranglehold on the meta and while mons will adapt, it's a two-way street. Mimikyu has and will adapt to new threats. It has many times in the past and it will do so in the future.

Some of your counters aren't even reliable
Drapion-still loses to salac curse
Honedge-I could be wrong but it's a 50/50 if the Mimi is choice or not
Vena-also loses to salac curse
Pangoro-loses to the up and coming kee+charm set, band also has an 18% chance of killing but that's negligible
Mamo-252+ Atk Choice Band Mimikyu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 400-472 (110.8 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lucario-This mon is a joke but sure you win, hurray!

Waiting to find something to suddenly pop up and beat kyu reliably is not going to happen. Kyu has proven itself a menace throughout the gen, I've yet to see a reasonable anti-ban argument. Most anti-ban arguments are semantics of tiering philosophy or just not seeing how broken it is.

I leave you with this question, what does Mimikyu contribute to 1v1, and does it outweigh its negative influence on building & playing?

ok

 

[zioziotrip]

View attachment 237510
ok

I keep see this being spammed but I really don't think ladder item usage matters. SS 1v1 ladder isn't exactly known for exceptional players and any time you encounter Curse in tour it'll be salac.

 

[oookkk]

I keep see this being spammed but I really don't think ladder item usage matters. SS 1v1 ladder isn't exactly known for exceptional players and any time you encounter Curse in tour it'll be salac.

im sure lkjc didnt spend alotta time on his posts because he was trying to make a point but, mamoswine can be bulked for wood hammer
252+ Atk Choice Band Mimikyu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Mamoswine: 306-360 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
bulldoze venu is an unset anyways leech seed venu beats all mimikyus and 50/50s curse
also zio, pretty sure hes making new tech there are still 10+ counters for mimikyu out there that are already counters
Edit: all the 10+ counters are pretty viable they aren't "unmons"