Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Anyway Mimikyu can go out with Necro?
Yeah I for the most part see the issues with Necro. I’d prefer a suspect as it doesn’t seem nearly good enough to be qb worthy. Although I understand PL is currently happening and a suspect is likely just delaying the inevitable.
That being said I believe Kyu is in a similar spot to Necro although it’s not as apparent. It has the same issue of diversity that is too strong as it’s backed up by a good ability and typing. I’ll rant about Mimikyu more in depth later.
 
Hello 1v1 comunity. Greetings to all of you. As a constant ladder player throughout the last two weeks, can't contain myself anymore to express my feelings/thoughts on how overcentralizing Necrozma has become in this gen. Some of you may not agree but this pokemon and the variety of sets people can get out of it are overwhelming for me as a single player. Not due to not being able to play them out but due to the fact that a three pokemons team can't be designed to counter all of the sets people run (Stall sitrus berry, weakness policy, choice specs, stored power/iapapa berry, dragon bait) and more that some of you are as well familiar with.

Some players don't like necrozma because they consider it overpowered, but the truth of the matter is that, the lack of dark type pokemons in the tier reduced the possible threats against it and players that consider themselves pro-players just spam it to get easy gxe/free elo or whatever you call it. The same type of players that use Jirachi or curse Mimikyu to succeed.

I like team-building like no one else and I'm willing to find pokemons that can completely delete a Necrozma with a simple mechanic like Necrozma does with others. However, it's not possible to find the answer to all my questions due to my concerns listed above. You may as well provide me a list of 5 pokemons that could possible have slightly advantage over Necrozma, but that does not solve the problem. That is like forzing people to use a pokemon obligatory on a team to be able to make it through ladder and that's not right if you take a closer look to it and put yourself in my shoes.



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Reasons why this pokemon is not right:
  1. Variety. It can be a bulky pokemon to counter team almost everything in the game, even oposite types. The pure example of this are Durant and Hydreigon. Durant first impresion mechanic can 1 shot Necrozma if you don't have protect. Light screen/weakness policy Necrozma wins against Hydreigon. Knowing 1v1 ladder, is obvious that, if I win using first impresion with Durant, next game with the same person will be a lost because I'll get cteamed with protect and viceversa with Hydreigon.
  2. Stats are boosted. Necrozma defence is busted against incineroar, a dark type that should beat it at all cost but yet sertain sets of Necrozma have a chance against it. The same goes to Incineroar, most people win the match against it but it is not normal that Necrozma beats a dark type mon like Incineroar just like that.
  3. It relents our growing as comunity. I was arguing with some particular partnerts of the 1v1 comunity and found out that they were filling unconfortable with the Metagame discusion related to this pokemon and without facts, were declining any negative opinion about it. I went ahead and performed the /rank command on them and verified that they had less than 200 battles.. Enough for me to stop talking about this with them because it was clear for me that this is something which needs to be escalated for further review and formal discusion. It is true that most of you all don't know who I am but I've been there the whole time.
  4. Restricts our leverage as team builders and usage of pokemons. Necrozma has been so dominant, that either Dark, or a specific pokemon must be on your team because there's no gap for you to pass. On top of that, you may think you have a counter for it, but then your opponent picks up one of its possible 3-0 teammates and you are finished.

:psycry:

As a team-builder, my goal is to be a very good one in that matter. That implies being able to find my own way to solve this problem. As of now, all I could do to be able to at least slip through, is having the benefit of surprise on my side. Unknown sets and wierd stuff players are not familiar with can work, but just for a limit time as you will see in the following battle: Bulky Physical Grass Silvally variant.

Please be aware that this post was made for positive purposes only. It is not directed to a specific person but for any of you interested in giving your personal opinion and advise on how to proceed. Recommendations are accepted. Sincerely,

HeavyStorming
Council Member of 1vs1 Unoficial Challenges
Member of 1vs1 Most Valued Sets Builders
 
Hello, US West member #4 VG Jungle here. So obviously, I’m here to say ban necrozma. Currently, it has an over 70% win rate in 18 games of PL week 1. It has both the most usage (tied with Jirachi) and one of the best W/L ratios in the tour. I’ve been abusing it since Melmetal got released, and have had a lot of success on ladder with it.

Anecdote Anecdote Anecdote nobody cares.

Necrozma currently utilizes about 5 sets, each with great efficiency.

1. WP 4 Attacks
2. WP 3 Attacks (CM + WP / DD + WP)
3. Choice Specs (Bulky / Fast)
4. Choice Scarf
5. Stall (eew)

Many of these sets alone would be very high tiered, with WP 4 Attacks probably being either S- or A+ on its own. The problem with Necrozma is the fact that it is incredibly difficult to check all of the sets at the same time, especially with a pokemon not called Flame Charge Weakness Policy Incineroar. The sets cover pretty much all of a Necrozma’s bases, and I guess Stall is there too. Necrozma’s meta coverage is filthy, primarily due to 3 things.

A. Prism Armor
- Prism Armor is an incredible ability in a meta without Z moves. There are now very few big neutral hits to work around this ability. The nature of the meta in conjunction with Prism Armor allows Necrozma to take full advantage of Weakness Policy to destroy wannabe counters like Bisharp.

B. Photon Geyser
- 100 Base Power 100% Accurate STAB move sounds nice for most bulky offense pokemon. Think Earthquake. Now Photon Geyser is just Earthquake. But special. And psychic type. And well ... ignores abilities. Wait a minute VG that sounds kind of good! Of course it is, and that’s one of the reasons we’re here in the first place. Imagine you’re a Mimikyu or a Crustle. You’re minding your business, and you see a moderately fat psychic. This should be a free win, however, you get OHKOd by Photon Geyser (very tragic, I cried). Photon Geyser’s versatility is great. Sub breaking move, no recharge, high damage, and ignoring abilities.

C. Prismatic Laser
- We definitely wouldn’t be having this discussion if Necrozma didn’t OHKO everything with a 160 BP move. The thing is, it does. Prismatic Laser is the last part of Necrozma’s BS trifecta. Why use a standard approach to a bulky attacker, such as set up into attack, when you can just use the Secret Ray Gun Jutsu and to quote ToppyTopic, “disconnect your opponent’s controller”. Prismatic Laser is just icing on the cake for a Pokemon that’s as overloaded as Necrozma.

But wait! There’s more!

If you order now, I’ll throw in a strain on creative team building, for absolutely free! That’s quickban value for the low low price of 1995Kbs. Necrozma by nature forces Incin to be good. Necrozma by nature forces Mimikyu to run bulky life orb. Necrozma by nature forces any bulky water to invest way too much in special defense. Necrozma has hurt building by forcing Pokemon to adapt in unhealthy ways, especially because the best way to beat it is stat boosting, which of course, Necrozma can deal by just running a different set or more speed.

How ever, if you use the promo code, “Please” I’ll throw in the incredibly rare, diversity within a single set! Necrozma has the ability to use multiple different spreads with different bulks, speeds, and spa stats very efficiently. “Just build for necrozma” more like, “which one there’s like 15 different spreads”

So, we at US West Incorporated are asking you, please quick/ban Necrozma. However, I understand if you guys need to wait until after PL.

Tagging my local congressman Boat (phiwings99) to become West Member #5 to call for the ban.
 

Alakazam

Why'd you leave the keys upon the table
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Necrozma Thoughts
As has been brought up in the last few days, Necrozma is certainly a hot topic in the 1v1 community. Its ability to viably run oppressive sets in Choice Specs and Calm Mind setup, both S or near S rank sets, has been centralizing the metagame around solid counters for Necrozma, putting a particular focus on Dark-types like Incineroar and Mandibuzz or brutal hyper offense like Choice Band Dracovish and Diggersby. However, as the metagame develops, largely in part to the jumpstarted innovation thanks to 1v1 PL, niche sets like Dragon Dance physical and Choice Scarf have been popping up that threatens to lure in and reliably beat Necrozma's supposed 'counters'.

While the Necrozma metagame develops, its awkward timing proves to be extremely unfortunate, with the unpredictable HOME release coming right before the aforementioned 1v1PL. This makes a ladder-based suspect test simultaneously too slow and ineffective, as it would take 2 weeks and rely on focused ladder play, which will put a huge strain on the best players, who want to focus on tournaments instead of ladder success right now. Therefore, the only effective option to remove it is a quickban.

For me personally, I do not believe that Necrozma is as disgustingly oppressive as the previous quickban made, against Sableye. Sableye, with 2 moves, not sets, absolutely crushed most of the metagame, forcing the metagame to use Dark-types in a time with less viable Dark-type options. Mew, the next banned Pokemon, was not done through a quickban, despite being even harder to build against than Sableye, and in my opinion relatively far more broken than Necrozma, with much more variation possible.

I think, by quickbanning Necrozma right now, a dangerous precedent could be set where the Council can make quickbans against Pokemon essentially when they feel like it is banworthy and when they have a 'good enough' reason to avoid a public suspect, which could be something as simplistic as "DLC just came out and we can't handle multiple public suspects in a row, or suspect multiple Pokemon at a time, quickban is the only option" (ala, Kyurem-Black, which, while I was also personally for removing, a portion of the community spoke out against quickban-wise. It was an easier decision to make, as Kyurem-B was autobanned by The Immortal before 1v1 council said anything definitive, as a precautionary measure).

Any choice made here should be considered with the past and future in mind, remembering the last time a council made quickbans with mixed public opinion for a ban. The Gen 7 metagame was so marred with improper quickbans that we had to resuspect the two Pokemon affected, Jirachi and Kyurem-B near the end of the gen, for a second and third time, respectively. Necrozma is not as clear cut as Sableye was, as virtually no one supported Sableye's continued existence, whereas I have seen respected tournament/ladder players argue that Necrozma should not be quickbanned in room and discord.

Despite me arguing that Necrozma should not be quickbanned, I absolutely think it is oppressive and should be removed from the metagame in some eventuality. We just need to acknowledge that simply quickbanning any Pokemon precludes the impossibility of metagame shifts to take place to make a Pokemon more tolerable. The reason a public suspect test is done is in order for the community at large to focus more attention on a particular Pokemon, in order to really see if it is 'as bad' as the vocal people claim it is. Usually, a Pokemon is 'that bad', but sometimes it is not, as with Jirachi, which was marred as being an RNG nightmare, when in actuality usually lost to the bulky offense and stall focused metagame of Gen 7, as well as against specific common threats like Greninja. Things are a bit different right now, as PL is making everyone scramble to find reliable Necrozma answers, or make everyone who wants to use Necrozma find new techs to lure and beat counters, which is boosting the growth of the metagame as new techs are discovered.

However, if a quickban is not done, we will be forced into a potentially un-fun 1v1 PL, which is the biggest tournament of the year for us. With most SS teams being Necrozma-centric, it is obscenely skewing the metagame and putting undue strain on a heavily-matchup oriented metagame. We may want to forgo worries of precedent in exchange for having a good time in our or at least my favorite tournament.

If a quickban vote comes to council, I will be abstaining (edit: unless a resuspect post-DLC is guaranteed). What are your thoughts on Necrozma?
 
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Necrozma Thoughts
As has been brought up in the last few days, Necrozma is certainly a hot topic in the 1v1 community. Its ability to viably run oppressive sets in Choice Specs and Calm Mind setup, both S or near S rank sets, has been centralizing the metagame around solid counters for Necrozma, putting a particular focus on Dark-types like Incineroar and Mandibuzz or brutal hyper offense like Choice Band Dracovish and Diggersby. However, as the metagame develops, largely in part to the jumpstarted innovation thanks to 1v1 PL, niche sets like Dragon Dance physical and Choice Scarf have been popping up that threatens to lure in and reliably beat Necrozma's supposed 'counters'.

While the Necrozma metagame develops, its awkward timing proves to be extremely unfortunate, with the unpredictable HOME release coming right before the aforementioned 1v1PL. This makes a ladder-based suspect test simultaneously too slow and ineffective, as it would take 2 weeks and rely on focused ladder play, which will put a huge strain on the best players, who want to focus on tournaments instead of ladder success right now. Therefore, the only effective option to remove it is a quickban.

For me personally, I do not believe that Necrozma is as disgustingly oppressive as the previous quickban made, against Sableye. Sableye, with 2 moves, not sets, absolutely crushed most of the metagame, forcing the metagame to use Dark-types in a time with less viable Dark-type options. Mew, the next banned Pokemon, was not done through a quickban, despite being even harder to build against than Sableye, and in my opinion relatively far more broken than Necrozma, with much more variation possible.

I think, by quickbanning Necrozma right now, a dangerous precedent could be set where the Council can make quickbans against Pokemon essentially when they feel like it is banworthy and when they have a 'good enough' reason to avoid a public suspect, which could be something as simplistic as "DLC just came out and we can't handle multiple public suspects in a row, or suspect multiple Pokemon at a time, quickban is the only option" (ala, Kyurem-Black, which, while I was also personally for removing, a portion of the community spoke out against quickban-wise. It was an easier decision to make, as Kyurem-B was autobanned by The Immortal before 1v1 council said anything definitive, as a precautionary measure).

Any choice made here should be considered with the past and future in mind, remembering the last time a council made quickbans with mixed public opinion for a ban. The Gen 7 metagame was so marred with improper quickbans that we had to resuspect the two Pokemon affected, Jirachi and Kyurem-B near the end of the gen, for a second and third time, respectively. Necrozma is not as clear cut as Sableye was, as virtually no one supported Sableye's continued existence, whereas I have seen respected tournament/ladder players argue that Necrozma should not be quickbanned in room and discord.

Despite me arguing that Necrozma should not be quickbanned, I absolutely think it is oppressive and should be removed from the metagame in some eventuality. We just need to acknowledge that simply quickbanning any Pokemon precludes the impossibility of metagame shifts to take place to make a Pokemon more tolerable. The reason a public suspect test is done is in order for the community at large to focus more attention on a particular Pokemon, in order to really see if it is 'as bad' as the vocal people claim it is. Usually, a Pokemon is 'that bad', but sometimes it is not, as with Jirachi, which was marred as being an RNG nightmare, when in actuality usually lost to the bulky offense and stall focused metagame of Gen 7, as well as against specific common threats like Greninja. Things are a bit different right now, as PL is making everyone scramble to find reliable Necrozma answers, or make everyone who wants to use Necrozma find new techs to lure and beat counters, which is boosting the growth of the metagame as new techs are discovered.

However, if a quickban is not done, we will be forced into a potentially un-fun 1v1 PL, which is the biggest tournament of the year for us. With most SS teams being Necrozma-centric, it is obscenely skewing the metagame and putting undue strain on a heavily-matchup oriented metagame. We may want to forgo worries of precedent in exchange for having a good time in our or at least my favorite tournament.

If a quickban vote comes to council, I will be abstaining. What are your thoughts on Necrozma?
The whole reason we want a quickban is that it's disgust enough to warrant a ban during PL. I have not heard a single person arguing to keep it. Worst case, we ban it now and retest it once DLC drops. Precedent really shouldn't matter when it comes to a suspect philosophy designed to promote fun and balanced gameplay, and a PL with Necrozma legal is not that.
 

Alakazam

Why'd you leave the keys upon the table
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
If you disagree with a decision made tiering-wise, and made no effort to communicate your concerns while discussion was happening when you were around, don't suddenly come out against the decision. Make your thoughts known beforehand.
I also added this phrase in the first post of this thread-
 

ggopw

I COULD BE BANNED!
As someone who didn't ladder swsh at all except for the mew suspect due to the meta incredibly boring(especially pre-home), but spent a ton of time in the builder and fair amount of time watching good tour replays and participating in previously mentioned in the last month or two, I can confidently say it's not nearly as big of a strain on teambuilding as u guys make it to be. People are used to using standard sets in this meta way too much, not even slightly adapting to newly added mons and that's the biggest issue currently with gen81v1. Banning necrozma will definitely not solve this, in fact keeping necrozma might finally make lazy players have to adapt their spreads and sets they use in the end.

Teams that get 3 0ed by necrozma in my experience, both building my own teams and looking at other players teams are incredibly rare and
users that say unpredictability with its sets is the issue are the same users that did that for dragonite and dinite was undoubtedly 10 times worse in that regard and that still didn't push it off the edge for a ban, simply put u are gonna see the specs set 4/5 times, wp sets while cool are no better than other lure sets, not to mention u can figure out if they are wp often enough if u know what to look for.

tldr; many good players not just me think that quickbanning would be a ridiculously stupid way to approach this. I wouldn't even support a suspect test because: a) what tda said, basically its the worst time to get a good suspect considering its pl season b) if we do suspect it now it will have to be resuspected already in early summer and who knows what else will need suspecting then so it would be a huge waste of time.
 
I also added this phrase in the first post of this thread-
There was no active decision made or discussion happening that was publicly disclosed. The reason I made the post is that I realized after you added Necrozma to the VR you hadn't quickbanned it. If council was like "we're discussing a quickban and would like to hear your thoughts" then that would make sense but this is not the case.
 
I'm not here to write a paragraph just my thoughts on Necrozma. This mon is busted AF, it has the ability to run multiple sets and can beat almost anything the opponent has with 2 open slots for the mons it doesn't beat. Necrozma has few pokemon that can beat it and therefore it forces them to use those mons. Necrozma needs a ban, but thanks to Necrozma I have gone to the gen 4 1v1 ladder and conquered it in a week.
 

Alakazam

Why'd you leave the keys upon the table
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
There was no active decision made or discussion happening that was publicly disclosed. The reason I made the post is that I realized after you added Necrozma to the VR you hadn't quickbanned it. If council was like "we're discussing a quickban and would like to hear your thoughts" then that would make sense but this is not the case.
This isn't about necrozma specifically, this is just in general, and will apply to all future points of discussion. I have made a post about Necrozma, speaking on behalf of council, along with my own personal opinion near the end, and we're hoping other people will chime in.
 
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Necrozma Thoughts
As has been brought up in the last few days, Necrozma is certainly a hot topic in the 1v1 community. Its ability to viably run oppressive sets in Choice Specs and Calm Mind setup, both S or near S rank sets, has been centralizing the metagame around solid counters for Necrozma, putting a particular focus on Dark-types like Incineroar and Mandibuzz or brutal hyper offense like Choice Band Dracovish and Diggersby. However, as the metagame develops, largely in part to the jumpstarted innovation thanks to 1v1 PL, niche sets like Dragon Dance physical and Choice Scarf have been popping up that threatens to lure in and reliably beat Necrozma's supposed 'counters'.

While the Necrozma metagame develops, its awkward timing proves to be extremely unfortunate, with the unpredictable HOME release coming right before the aforementioned 1v1PL. This makes a ladder-based suspect test simultaneously too slow and ineffective, as it would take 2 weeks and rely on focused ladder play, which will put a huge strain on the best players, who want to focus on tournaments instead of ladder success right now. Therefore, the only effective option to remove it is a quickban.

For me personally, I do not believe that Necrozma is as disgustingly oppressive as the previous quickban made, against Sableye. Sableye, with 2 moves, not sets, absolutely crushed most of the metagame, forcing the metagame to use Dark-types in a time with less viable Dark-type options. Mew, the next banned Pokemon, was not done through a quickban, despite being even harder to build against than Sableye, and in my opinion relatively far more broken than Necrozma, with much more variation possible.

I think, by quickbanning Necrozma right now, a dangerous precedent could be set where the Council can make quickbans against Pokemon essentially when they feel like it is banworthy and when they have a 'good enough' reason to avoid a public suspect, which could be something as simplistic as "DLC just came out and we can't handle multiple public suspects in a row, or suspect multiple Pokemon at a time, quickban is the only option" (ala, Kyurem-Black, which, while I was also personally for removing, a portion of the community spoke out against quickban-wise. It was an easier decision to make, as Kyurem-B was autobanned by The Immortal before 1v1 council said anything definitive, as a precautionary measure).

Any choice made here should be considered with the past and future in mind, remembering the last time a council made quickbans with mixed public opinion for a ban. The Gen 7 metagame was so marred with improper quickbans that we had to resuspect the two Pokemon affected, Jirachi and Kyurem-B near the end of the gen, for a second and third time, respectively. Necrozma is not as clear cut as Sableye was, as virtually no one supported Sableye's continued existence, whereas I have seen respected tournament/ladder players argue that Necrozma should not be quickbanned in room and discord.

Despite me arguing that Necrozma should not be quickbanned, I absolutely think it is oppressive and should be removed from the metagame in some eventuality. We just need to acknowledge that simply quickbanning any Pokemon precludes the impossibility of metagame shifts to take place to make a Pokemon more tolerable. The reason a public suspect test is done is in order for the community at large to focus more attention on a particular Pokemon, in order to really see if it is 'as bad' as the vocal people claim it is. Usually, a Pokemon is 'that bad', but sometimes it is not, as with Jirachi, which was marred as being an RNG nightmare, when in actuality usually lost to the bulky offense and stall focused metagame of Gen 7, as well as against specific common threats like Greninja. Things are a bit different right now, as PL is making everyone scramble to find reliable Necrozma answers, or make everyone who wants to use Necrozma find new techs to lure and beat counters, which is boosting the growth of the metagame as new techs are discovered.

However, if a quickban is not done, we will be forced into a potentially un-fun 1v1 PL, which is the biggest tournament of the year for us. With most SS teams being Necrozma-centric, it is obscenely skewing the metagame and putting undue strain on a heavily-matchup oriented metagame. We may want to forgo worries of precedent in exchange for having a good time in our or at least my favorite tournament.

If a quickban vote comes to council, I will be abstaining (edit: unless a resuspect post-DLC is guaranteed). What are your thoughts on Necrozma?
I'd like remind everyone of the main reasons both for and against a quickban which were outlined in TDA's post;

Pro Quickban: However, if a quickban is not done, we will be forced into a potentially un-fun 1v1 PL, which is the biggest tournament of the year for us. With most SS teams being Necrozma-centric, it is obscenely skewing the metagame and putting undue strain on a heavily-matchup oriented metagame. We may want to forgo worries of precedent in exchange for having a good time in our or at least my favorite tournament.

Anti Quickban: I think, by quickbanning Necrozma right now, a dangerous precedent could be set where the Council can make quickbans against Pokemon essentially when they feel like it is banworthy and when they have a 'good enough' reason to avoid a public suspect, which could be something as simplistic as "DLC just came out and we can't handle multiple public suspects in a row, or suspect multiple Pokemon at a time, quickban is the only option" (ala, Kyurem-Black, which, while I was also personally for removing, a portion of the community spoke out against quickban-wise.

So essentially what this boils down to is 1v1 PL stability and enjoyment vs reputation of the council, which, I just really don't think is a very compelling argument? The council consists of the members who currently serve for a reason, as they're esteemed players / builders that (should) have an increased understanding of the metagame over the general player base and thus be trusted with all tiering decisions. This is undoubtedly the most difficult decision of the metagame to date, but personally I don't think that it's healthy to allow necrozma to remain in the tier for another 8ish weeks until PL is concluded. It's been quite clearly stated that there won't be a public ladder suspect test within the duration of PL. Although this does leave a lot of time for the metagame to develop and new answers to be discovered and brought into popularity, necrozma is the kind of pokemon that has all the tools necessary to adapat to however the metagame shifts in order to deal with it. Furthermore, necrozma's best sets (specs, cm) will always remain in extremely high viability regardless of how the metagame develops, which puts further strain on teams that successfully prepare for the main S rank sets, but lose to the niche (but still very very good) calm mind / iron defense / dragon dance variants. Common answers like banded darmanitan and banded durant can easily be lured with bulk investment. Niche pokemon such as crawdaunt and scrafty can still find themselves lured by specs hyper beam, and because of their niche role in the meta will make it more difficult to accommodate for other common threats when building. Incineroar and mandibuzz are the two main dark types that have risen in relevance because they are seen to have favourable necrozma matchups, but can still find themselves losing to weakness policy and toxic variants respectively. The sheer versatility alongside the ridiculous bulk paired with prism armor and an extremely diverse movepool with a very respectable speed tier should make necrozma a very very viable candidate for a quickban, to be suspected again at a later date.

I don't at all think that a quickban under these circumstances would set any precedent on how the council handles suspect testing, nor do I think that any party other than the council are finding this to be of any concern. Following the conclusion of PL, we will still have at the very least 1-2 months to figure out what to do with necrozma before the DLC comes out, which will introduce many possibly viable pokemon (including but not limited to) such as the tapus, landorus / thundurus / tornadus line, cresselia, heatran, latias / latios, suicune / raikou / entei, articuno / moltres / zapdos, garchomp, metagross, magnezone, chansey, azumarill, volcarona, zygarde and probably more that I'm missing. We're playing in a meta with a pokemon that can adapt to almost all of the already few answers we have for it. I don't think this is healthy and am again pushing for a quickban
 
When duraludon kills something with steel beam and then faints.....the duraludon user loses. It's a bug or not? Because you win if your pokemon kills the other and then die to flare blitz recoil, for example.
 
users that say unpredictability with its sets is the issue are the same users that did that for dragonite and dinite was undoubtedly 10 times worse in that regard and that still didn't push it off the edge for a ban
That's not an apt comparison at all. Gen 7 1v1 was much more power crept then the current one, and Dragonite had Pokemon that counters multiple or most of his sets. This meta has like half the Pokemon that one did, and we really lack strong dark types right now that consistently beat even most sets. Dragonite had strong counters, and most viable Pokemon could naturally counter one set just by their nature virtues, and one of the best answers for it happens to be a top 3 Pokemon of the generation. Dragonite and Necrozma are similar on paper but the metas they inhabited are so different that it's pretty ignorant to compare them in this manner.
 

Arai

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
When duraludon kills something with steel beam and then faints.....the duraludon user loses. It's a bug or not? Because you win if your pokemon kills the other and then die to flare blitz recoil, for example.
When Flare Blitz is used the user receives 1/3 of damage dealt as recoil damage, meanwhile the user when using Steel Beam would always receive 1/2 maximum hp as recoil damage. Basically the amount of hp you lose is already determined with Steel Beam, unlike most recoil moves.
 
Tired of getting flinched to death by Togekiss and Jirachi on ladder?
Tired of vsing Mimikyu and having no idea what set its running?

Introducing Lucario, a mon I think is super underrated in the meta right now. I've found 2 items that help it beat different things while having a pretty damn good matchup spread in general.

Lucario @ Occa Berry / Air Balloon
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Atk / 68 Def / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bulldoze / Payback
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch / Bulk Up

Inner focus is a good ability that stops you from getting flinched, as well as is now immune to intimidate.

Want to beat Incin? Just replace bullet punch with bulk up. Bulk up -> CC will get you the KO.
Bulky Incin Flame charge -> Flare Blitz won't KO you with Occa.
Band Incin wont KO you with Flare Blitz after Bulk up + Occa. You KO back with CC turn 2.

Payback is there as a specific counter to Dragapult. Must be run with Occa and Bullet Punch.
You live any attack from 252+ specs, and will always KO back with Payback -> BP.
This will also beat Hydreigon, same deal except you only need to CC.

Onto the main course-
Vs Togekiss:
Meteor Mash -> Bullet Punch
Air Slash doesn't flinch you and isn't a OHKO.
You don't die to fire blast even without Occa.

Vs Jirachi:
Bulldoze -> Bulldoze -> Bulldoze/CC
Fire Punch will 2HKO, but it wont if you take Occa.
Zen Headbutt will not 2HKO you.
Bulldoze will 3HKO 252 252+ Jirachi.
Bulldoze will 4HKO a def invested Jirachi, but even if they trick you they waste a turn of damage so it doesn't matter. CC turn 3 to ensure KO (you're faster then due to the 120 speed evs).

Vs Mimikyu:
Bulldoze -> Meteor Mash
Bulky band 252+ play rough will not 1HKO you. You will still KO 248 hp 252+atk Band with Bulldoze -> Meteor Mash.
Scarf Jolly play rough will not 2HKO you. Scarf adamant play rough is a 2HKO roll but no-one uses that so you should be fine.
You outspeed curse Mimi after bulldoze and KO with Meteor Mash.
(A quick sidenote that curse Mimi with White Herb will counter this set, but I never see it on ladder, especially since band and scarf have risen in popularity).

Air Balloon is for stuff like Exca, Steelix (wont get KO'd by body press).

Here's a pokepastes with the right movesets ready to go: https://pokepast.es/05cdd0aef1a2f7e3

TLDR: I hate flinch so I made this. Mon has a pretty good matchup spread right now and I recommend using it as it can fit into most teams however you need it to.
 
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Time to talk about something I'd really like to see removed from the tier.

Mimikyu
I really don't like the effect Mimikyu has on this metagame. It's such a pain in the ass to build in SS largely because of Mimikyu. While in most match up charts solely include Mimikyu's match-up spreads I think its greatest strength lies in being a partner. With partners this thing becomes an absolute menace because it can shut down anything and everything, and it will. Mimikyu can fill so many roles very well that it will usually cover the weaknesses of any other mon and when a partner also covers Mimikyu's short list of answers it becomes a hassle.

The largest issue to me is there aren't that many reliable checks to Kyu. Exca is easily the best but it's also the only one. Haxorous, slow band. Whimsi, Taunt Kyu. Speed control, white herb. I guarantee you that Kyu can beat anything it wants with the right set and to me it really doesn't trade off much to obtain a whole new list things it beats.
There are four pillars of Mimikyu sets and I'll go through what you lose changing up the set.
Standard LO beats Dragons, Ghosts, and Darks. Aegislash is scary because it 50/50s speed control for the most part beats this archetype.
Depends on what move you're dropping but you usually would drop SD
+Rhyperior, Gastro, and whatever random bulky water. If you don't drop SD you can beat Milotic, not likely still.
-ID Mandi if you drop SD, Sub Disable Pult becomes 50/50 if you drop Sneak
A kinda niche set but it gets the job done
+Rotom-W, Milotic, Rhyp, random bulky waters
-Makes Aegi & Pult a pain and if you drop Play Rough you can't break Mandi
LO imo is slept on, it beats Sturdy stuff which runs Rock Blast for other Kyu which is LO's main appeal.
This is easily the most spammed Kyu set and for good reason. Most things slower than 96 will lose. Notable exceptions are the Sturdy mons currently running Rock Blast.
+Speed control (tomb,bulldoze, electroweb)
-N/A
+Scarf mons slower than 96
-N/A
Over Phantom Force this one requires think sometimes although if you run Figy it makes the set much safer but Herb can occasinaly take it against the rare Taunt Whimsi.
+Mons that spam recovery, notable Milotic, Arcanine, and Gastro
-No Phantom Force means it's tougher in some matchup as you'll need for turns and w/ the Disguise damage you can only Sub once.
CurseKyu doesn't really need anything outside of three moves so the item and fourth moveslot are open to customization.
Scarf doesn't really have much variation. Moves change up and most of these are self explanatory. Protect+Toxic is something I learned about recently and it makes stall matchups way in Kyu's favor. Scarf is anti stall and has the added bonus of beating most Scarfers lower than 96 speed and speed control. This set is super good and makes building for Kyu even more of a pain in the ass.
This was mostly a tech for Necro but it still has some usage. Sturdy mons don't appreciate a banded Phantom Force and assuming they don't get lucky w/ blast Kyu should win. It also makes Aegi and Pult more consistent albeit they are still 50/50s assuming opp guesses set.
Kyu is such a massive pain in the ass. I really don't like having to run a check on every team I build, sometimes multiple tailored to different sets. You have to hope that Kyu isn't the set that 3-0s your team which is incredibly unhealthly to me. This thing imposes such a massive strain on building and I think the meta would not only be healthier with it gone, but much more fun. Mimikyu's sheer diversity in sets is basically the same issue people had w/ Necrozoma, and imo it's an even worse offender. SS is in a very weird spot rn and removing Kyu would be a huge step towards making SS a more appealing meta.
 
Ultimate staller


Just forfiet (Shiinotic) @ Leftovers
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Rain Dance
- Leech Seed
- Protect

3 sources of healing (Rain dance & rain dish, leftovers, and leech seed)and the ultimate stall move spore with a protect for backup
Of course this fails against grass types but that’s what this next guys for


I’m-pasta (Ditto) @ Lax Incense
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Transform

The reason I choose the lax incense over leftovers is because attacks missing is amazing and has single handed to win me games
 
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Mubs

Formerly Pokesartoolcay
is a Pre-Contributor
Related to tours but not related to PL, but why not?

I've made a unofficial 1v1 World Cup Census for the sake of getting a good idea of the amount of people that qualify for given specific areas, which will help in determining how many slots is feasible. Of course, nothings official, and I'll have to do this again when wc discussion thread drops, but best to get an idea earlier than later. As always, thanks and have a nice day
 
My time to write about Mimikyu.
:Mimikyu:

Its such a pain to play against, but especially to build against it, due to it being able to run 4 viable sets and some unsets. There are very few reliable counters to it and it can nearly tech every mon in the Metagame. Its just warping the entire building process around itself. Playing against it is also very annoying because you have to predict which set it is. Having to predict which set the Pokemon is an aspect i really like but not if I have to predict which of the 4 viable and many extra unsets it is.

If you want to have a more detailed post, id advise to read Zios post, he showed the different sets more detailed.

The 1v1 Metagame would not only be a better place, but also more fun without Mimikyu.
 

DEG

Nyaaaa~
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Hello my dear 1v1 community, with 1v1PL nearing to an end, I would like to echo the thoughts of my dear 1v1 partners, which go by the name of Inkreativ and ZioZiotrip. After laddering for some solid hours and spectating the games of this prestigious tournament and lurking around our generation eight teambuilding channel I would like to announce that the Pocket monster that goes by Mimikyu is in fact broken.

Firstly, the aforementioned Pokemon may run a plethora of move sets with little to no opportunity cost, for example, Choice Band, Curse, LO and more. This allows Mimikyu to picks its counters depending on its teammates, it can also force 50/50s on team preview seeing that sometimes you just can't get into your opponent head / really know what they're running which is quite problematic as it takes the most important part of our esteemed metagame. Well, as I previously stated 2 generations ago, the fact that you don't know what they run isn't for the most part problematic, it's the 1v1 metagame afterall and the element of surprise should be always present BUT when the element of surprise can run any surprise with little to no opportunity cost and can pick what it beats freely, easily, without worrying much is the problem here.

Additionally, Mimikyu restricts another important part of the so-called 1v1 metagame, which is teambuilding. Mimikyu is able to pick its counters effectively that you're only left with a little number of Pokemon that can beat it 100% naming Excadrill, Avalugg, Corvik. This wraps the whole concept known as team building around it which is extremely unhealthy.

Both of these problems are exacerbated by the fact its ability, Disguise, sponge the first hit thrown at it, making it a better Focus Sash, a banned item in the 1v1 metagame. For these reasons, I urge the leading group known as the 1v1 council to take immediate action before we lose the fun in the 1v1 metagame on Smogon University, thank you!
 

Boat

sailing apparatus
is a Pre-Contributor
I'd figure I'd come in here and comment, since nobody is defending Mimikyu yet.

"Mimikyu is able to pick its counters effectively that you're only left with a little number of Pokemon that can beat it 100% naming Excadrill, Avalugg, Corvik."

I have not found this to be the case. Finding true Mimikyu counters has not been especially difficult for me after the release of Pokemon Home; Excadrill, Corviknight, Avalugg (as you mentioned), Incineroar (Band FC), Cobalion (LO Taunt), Zeraora (Taunt Bulk Up), Venusaur (technically 50/50s CurseKyu but it's still a very reliable check since they have to guess if you're Choice Specs or SubPetaya), Cinderace, Bisharp (RT Iron Head), and Pokemon with multi-hit moves like Steelix, Copperajah, and Cloyster all win against it reliably.
 
I'd figure I'd come in here and comment, since nobody is defending Mimikyu yet.

"Mimikyu is able to pick its counters effectively that you're only left with a little number of Pokemon that can beat it 100% naming Excadrill, Avalugg, Corvik."

I have not found this to be the case. Finding true Mimikyu counters has not been especially difficult for me after the release of Pokemon Home; Excadrill, Corviknight, Avalugg (as you mentioned), Incineroar (Band FC), Cobalion (LO Taunt), Zeraora (Taunt Bulk Up), Venusaur (technically 50/50s CurseKyu but it's still a very reliable check since they have to guess if you're Choice Specs or SubPetaya), Cinderace, Bisharp (RT Iron Head), and Pokemon with multi-hit moves like Steelix, Copperajah, and Cloyster all win against it reliably.
Also Scarf Hax with Mold Breaker
 

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