Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Its counters can be Ghost types if not running scrappy (that you probably gonna use) steel types and rock types and same gender if running attract
If you dont want attract you can use play rough for coverage
id say try to optimize the EVs a bit more since max spe is not really necessary to outspeed much as you have twave and a cool base spe of 100, but mons like togekiss can fit a better role than miltank on most teams


Anyway, when making cores, would you find counters to a specific mon (eleki beats fini) and use a mon that beats it (lando), or do you find counters to a specific role? (It works both ways but I’m just wondering what other people think)
yeah 50/50ing or losing to one of your own teammates isn't a good thing, but you should also try to cover every mon thats ranked A- or higher (or is common on ladder/smogtours), id recommend watching a dom/elo bandit video guide for more info on teambuilding
 

recti

formerly Arvinraj K III C
Beautiful. Perfect evs to ohko choice band urshifu, tanks hits, stalls and hits hard against meta mons like tapu fini, celesteela and regidrago.
Calc: 252 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 46 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu: 163-193 (100.6 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
No I did not change anything the calc is perfect. As the post also says, it’s “deveasting” and it does a lot of damage with ”roll out”, stomp, and play rough. (Sorry this post is too good)

Anyway, when making cores, would you find counters to a specific mon (eleki beats fini) and use a mon that beats it (lando), or do you find counters to a specific role? (It works both ways but I’m just wondering what other people think)
i think its just worse togekiss and it does somewhat damg v fini but no damg v celisteela
 
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clerica

fly me up to Jupiter
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hihi I'd like to open discussion on sleep in 1v1, particularly about how sleep should be banned because of its uncompetitive nature.

While sleep has decent list of counters such as misty/electric terrain, sub (still a 50/50 usually on whether they break sub or click the sleep move), taunt (still a 50/50 often similar to sub but sleep move dependent), lum berry (niche wtf), etc and doesnt particularly have a ton of usage, it is uncompetitive and turns games into a dice roll which is something that I feel 1v1 in particular should try to remove from its games. Mons such as sylv, venu, roserade, swampert, and relicanth all can use sleep to finesse matchups they should never be winning such as sylveon beating aggron via yawn and some lucky sleep turns. As long as the sleep user can get the sleep off it can turn any game into a coinflip which undermines pretty much all of the skill of playing. On the other end of the spectrum you have speed trap sleep users that generally use sleep powder to immobilize their opponent and then leech stall them to death. As long as the sleep user outspeeds it can win almost by correctly guessing when the opponent will wake up. Even if you have an answer such as taunt or encore, if the sleep user protects on the turn you wake up they can simply put you back to sleep the following turn forcing games to be a series of luck based 50/50s on whether the opponent will wake up or not.

This is particularly a problem in 1v1 due to the lack of switching and the short duration of games. Unlike other tiers, you the no control over what gets slept once the battle has actually started. Additionally, move such as yawn which can be negated in tiers that involve switching have no way to be avoided once it has been inflicted (unless you're lum but only crustle runs that). Once you've been yawned your only counterplay is to hope and pray you wake up before you lose the game. This is where the short duration of 1v1 games becomes a factor. Because games are so short, games involving sleep usually come down to a single sleep interaction. Unlike flinches that you can relatively easily bulk and increase the odds in your favor, almost nothing can survive a 3 turn sleep and still win the game.

Once again I'm not arguing that sleep is broken. There are counters and ways to play around. I am arguing that sleep is an uncompetitive aspect of 1v1 that undermines skillful gameplay in an already volatile tier. It should be in our best interests to try and remove cheese rng strategies from the tier and promote skilled gameplay.

Also something to note is that while in this scenario I'm discussing SS 1v1, I encourage the other generations to ban sleep as well. The farther back you go in generations, the more dangerous sleep becomes especially with users like hex mega gengar which is able to beat anything it outspeeds with a bit of luck and jumpluff which is the most iconic sleep speed trap 50/50 generator. I think every generation of 1v1 would be healthier without the bullshit that sleep encourages and it would improve every meta, even if sleep isn't considered broken in any of them.

I'll end it here for now since i simply want to use this to start discussion, tagging DEG and Potatochan since they seemed interested in discussing this as well, gn
 
I think taking action against Sleep is unnecessary. It's a legitimate part of 1v1 which as you yourself say is not broken. I don't believe the RNG tied to Sleep is any more ridiculous than other RNG we accept in the tier we play.

Frankly, this ban seems incredibly arbitrary to me. Sleep users are not currently an issue in SS-BW and there isn't a valid argument to make that they are. While we all have our tales of losing to insanely bad sleep odds on ladder, I don't see Sleep as any more egregious than other forms of RNG.

First off, many MUs that involve Sleep moves have minimal RNG involved in them to begin with. A lot of mons that use Sleep are speed traps are losing their losing MUs and vice versa a majority of the time. When there is a deviation from the norm it's usually due to odds that are similar to crits/secondary effect.

Secondly, I don't see why Sleep specifically is being targeted as unacceptable RNG. It is nowhere similar to items like Bright Powder or Kings Rock where they have no merit outside of fishing for incredibly low chances in MUs that should be entirely losing. Sleep has various uses which aren't replicable such as enabling speed traps, allowing for the breaking of Sturdy, gaining the upper hand on faster mons, etc. You can look at a ton of moves that are deemed acceptable such as Protect+Endure, moves with a 30% chance of secondary effect, moves with a chance to deal game-ending status effects via secondary effects, inaccurate moves, etc.

RNG is ultimately a part of the game we play and I would hate to see a status with legitimate utility arbitrarily removed.
 
It just comes down to ripple effect, you know? You need to draw a very fine line when it comes to bans where a single deviation from the standard can bring arguments about something else. The very first thing that comes to mind after a hypothetical sleep ban is the common topic of twave Togekiss and the inherent hax that comes with it, and would you really ban paralysis as a whole, or even the move air slash?

In my opinion sleep rewards the player that doesn't use it. Sleep users are quite terrible 3-0 fishes since any good player will be prepared for them, and especially because of the limited users that can actually abuse it and how mid they are, and this brings you to a matchup where not only do you have to outpick, but also have to hit your moves, outplaying into not getting unlucky. 1v1 as a whole is about probability management for a lot of it and there's a reason why people avoid focus blast like the plague, why they EV perfectly instead of 80% rolls, and why mons like Mega Gengar have insanely low usage rate. We've seen some ridiculous shit happen with sleep before sure, namely I remember pqs vs like Heyman pluff vs Garde or something but that's just part of normal Pokemon hax, very rare occurrences that are inherent part of the game.

Ultimately I don't think any tiering action should be taken on the side of "uncompetitive" in the metagame if it isn't absolutely outrageous and entirely merit-less or if it isn't a combination of both something being broken and uncompetitive, like we've seen for Jirachi and Pre DLC Togekiss.
 

nolenot

Banned deucer.
yeah sure maybe sleep is uncompetitive and a problem in 1v1 worth discussing, but personally i think we should focus on the bigger problem regarding sleep that i fall asleep every single fucking time i decide watch an ss 1v1 series because of how god awful and boring this meta has become. just imho tho
 
weird twist for someone who's main account used to start with "bansleep" but I'll give my two cents

I disagree with radu's post that action should only be taken if the potential for uncompetitiveness is "outrageous," but I do agree with the sentiment that sleep shouldn't be banned. something like quick claw has extremely little competitive merit, but sub seeders like jumpluff and venu have decent odds to win their respective favorable matchups while using sleep. I understand how pokemon like sm mega gar can turn a losing matchup into a winnable one with a fantastic speed tier and access to offensive moves that take advantage of sleep turns, but the vast majority of sleep users aren't so well equipped. with the exception of yawn sylveon and mgar, I don't think sleep abusers have much opportunity to cheese a matchup they're not favored in. if anything, when considering the relatively low accuracy of moves like sing, yawn, and sleep powder, abusers are sometimes more likely to lose a winning matchup than their opponent is to lose a winning one. I don't see an issue with this, because the inconsistency of these moves more often than not affects the user. someone using spore imprison smeargle is aware that the strategy fails against slower mons 33% of the time, which can only ever benefit the person in a losing matchup.

tldr for me is that sleep adds an interesting and uncommon element into our meta via speed traps and that there just aren't enough mons that take advantage of positive rng when they're in a losing matchup to make it an uncompetitive aspect of the game
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
Blanket sleep bans are hard to argue for in gens with reasonable sleep mechanics. General tiering policy suggests that any non-pokemon aspect that we look into considering for a ban should ideally be something that is problematic when used by at least a notable portion of the mons it is an available option for (see: OHKO, evasion, accuracy, etc). When we apply this logic to sleep, it's easy to notice that mons like Exeggutor, Tangrowth, Gallade, Swampert, etc, aren't really causing any problems in SS, and the same can be said for the oldgens I'm familiar with. With that in mind, it becomes hard to argue that sleep presents any widespread issue greater than a few particularly effective users of it.

The more realistic step to take, given the lacking cumulative efficacy of sleep users as a whole, is to examine those handful of effective sleepers that perhaps use it to more problematic extents. In the case of SS, you'd be looking at perhaps Yawn Sylveon and would have to theorycraft something like Sing Primarina or bringing HypnoHex Gengar into SS. Beyond that, you would also have to make the argument that losing to a speed trap because you're slower is a different kind of "taking the game out of the players' hands" in comparison to something like sending Ferrothorn out vs a Fire type (gl, I've tried). As for SM, and ORAS to a lesser extent, I can definitely see the case for Mega Gengar being an issue in its ridiculous speed, power, and toolset to capitalize on Hypnosis, thus making near every single matchup that doesn't outspeed it and ko into either a 60/40/20% dice roll to determine the winner. The same goes for Grasswhistle Whimsicott in the same gens, where it doesn't even need to worry about outspeeding, and can also be paired with Brightpowder to double up on the RNG factor, but also has to fear Taunt users as a result. Comparatively, nothing else in any gen of 1v1 really comes close to that kind of Uncompetitive quality besides maybe SS Gengar in theory (but given that it sees no use as is, that's unfortunately all hypothetical for now).

Ultimately, there's just not really an easy way to approach sleep. While I absolutely do support nuking Mega Gengar from every gen it exists in and potentially looking into Whimsicott as well, no other sleep user (besides SM Snorlax and Darkrai in any gen) really presents problems from the standpoint of Uncompetitiveness to quite the same or greater extent in any of the current metagames. Even if you managed to push SS Sylveon/Primarina/Gengar to an obnoxious point, that still creates more of a precedent to ban them individually, rather than sleep as a whole, imo. While I'd love to rid competitive mons of needless RNG wherever we can, it's hard to make that case for things like this where the brunt of abusers either stink at it or at best are relying on odds far worse than flinching to cheese matchups.
 
in SM, something like z t wave togekiss has a more reliable matchup against most mons than gengar, let's say toge got magically banned, gyarados, one of the most common mons, gengar cant really touch it, bring focus blast and you miss every hit (focus miss doesn't even OHKO). jumpluff is a bigger issue but half the time you're switching it out for something more useful like serperior cause you're way too stressed about the matchup unreliability of it

in ORAS, z moves are non existent so choiced items like scarf become more common so you just clapped by them everytime, jumpluff is kind of bad compared to most other grass types in this gen. but if togekiss can get bulked for in SS then surely you can just bulk for gengar in ORAS

idk how i feel about sleep in SS but on ladder people just run scarf on random shit (like buzzwole wtf). sleep can be a pain in smogtours but let's be honest, you're just gonna get hard blamed for hax if you win with it so like is it really worth running it? probably not, but it's up to the player ig, anyway currently i feel like you can keep it in control so not very bannable

in conclusion, don't ban sleep in oldgens, but in SS? maybe..... dont use it tho it's unreliable af and you need to have a godly luck stat to make it somewhat useful
 

XSTATIC COLD

Banned deucer.
For me sleep in ss is annoying but not broken. All sleep moves mons are pretty slow : the fastest is venusaur with 284.
(i dont count grass whistle whimsicott cause of 55%accuracy or hypnosis gengar)

That means you can counter them easily, with high speed mons or simply substitute or taunt, or lum berry to surprise the opponent.

And if it was so much broken, people would use it more often. Yet, few people use sleep moves in battle. There is some sylveon, some venusaur but they are not the most used mons in games. That means there are others mons which are more problematic than sleep mons.(like metagross, tapu fini)

Talking about fini, it blocks all status moves with its talent, so yeah, sleep in ss is not broken and maybe except Sylveon, mons with sleep moves are not that good and easy to counter.
 
Im all-in for banning Sleep. Don't you guys hate it when a registeel or type null almost faints and suddenly rests and heals itself to full hp. Too overpowered imo. And man, when I have used my lum berry to wake up my mon vs an amoonguss that just used spore and the mon falls asleep again by effect spore in the same turn, that shit is unreasonable af.
 

Here Comes Team Charm!

Perhaps the stars
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Sleep is fine. Sylveon is the only mon that really cheeses would-be hard counters merely by getting good turns, everything else is either a speed trap (completely fine, having a mon with 300+ speed is not an unreasonable teambuilding requirement and you can always use ferro/spd stall/icicle spear/flame charge/etc to beat roserade and venu), or too weak to seriously cheese anything (if swampert gets 3 sleep turns it can,,, barely kill custap vish).

For me sleep in ss is annoying but not broken. All sleep moves mons are pretty slow : the fastest is venusaur with 284.
(i dont count grass whistle whimsicott cause of 55%accuracy or hypnosis gengar)

That means you can counter them easily, with high speed mons or simply substitute or taunt, or lum berry to surprise the opponent.

And if it was so much broken, people would use it more often. Yet, few people use sleep moves in battle. There is some sylveon, some venusaur but they are not the most used mons in games. That means there are others mons which are more problematic than sleep mons.(like metagross, tapu fini)

Talking about fini, it blocks all status moves with its talent, so yeah, sleep in ss is not broken and maybe except Sylveon, mons with sleep moves are not that good and easy to counter.
:ss/roserade:
 

XSTATIC COLD

Banned deucer.
Sleep is fine. Sylveon is the only mon that really cheeses would-be hard counters merely by getting good turns, everything else is either a speed trap (completely fine, having a mon with 300+ speed is not an unreasonable teambuilding requirement and you can always use ferro/spd stall/icicle spear/flame charge/etc to beat roserade and venu), or too weak to seriously cheese anything (if swampert gets 3 sleep turns it can,,, barely kill custap vish).



:ss/roserade:
dude, nobody plays roserade expect bomb21... i just appointed mons which are "often" used.
 

DEG

we tangle endlessly
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I think the current SS metagame is pretty fun building and playing wise, I do enjoy it for now but we'll see if anything stands out and make it during PL. As many know I've been a strong advocate to reducing RNG in every 1v1 gen this includes banning sleep inducing moves, Jirachi, and Togekiss. While the latter two may be a bit farfetched, I think getting rid of sleep induce moves is a step in the right direction. RNG is part of the game, but removing RNG as much as we can would never hurt the metagame, it will always have a positive outcome rewarding the better player.

Why sleep inducing moves?
I think it's fairly simple to say that sleep is an uncompetitive status in a meta where you can't switch out and the whole game depends on that one Pokemon doing Pokemon stuff. If we go back to the definition of Uncompetitive in the Tiering Policy Framework we get:
Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

Sleep inducing moves reduce the player choice / interaction in two ways. First the moment the sleep inducing move gets used, for example Hypnosis is 60%, Sleep powder is 75%, Sing is 55%, Yawn is 100% but forces the protect/set up/attack situation. This completely lowers the interaction between players and really throw the game into RNG. Now before people say "Oh, all other moves can miss", there's one simple different, if Focus Blast hits you can survive it and KO the opponent for example, also other moves like Focus Blast, Thunder, Fire Blast are used as coverage / main STAB moves to deal damage and their purpose isn't to really stop the opposing Pokemon to not being able to move for x amount of turn. Plus, when it comes to moves like Fire Blast and Thunder, other moves like Flamethrower and Thunderbolt exists - with less BP ofc - without risking misses.

It also reduce the player choice / interaction after the sleep moves hits, here is where its more impactful and you leave the whole game to dicerolls for the next three turns. It removes every outplaying opportunity from one of the player which can reward the "less skillful play" pretty easily. I don't think sleep adds anything to the metagame other than blatant hax and leaving the game to RNG. Speed traps will always exist, but they will fall into "more skillful building/picking/playing" since they'll always be speed traps but they'll either fall in the category of utilizing sub/encore/disable or fast tanky Leech Seeders which are still valid strategies without sleep. Sleep ban would just target RNG speed traps that sole job is to outspeed put to sleep and leave the game to dicerolls which is highly uncompetitive.


Why sleep inducing moves not other hax chances?
Now before people say "Oh if we ban sleep while not ban Ice Beam?". The answer is pretty simple, moves with secondary effects have advantages and a reason to be in the game, Thunderbolt giving a paralyze chance is fine since Thunderbolt is used as a legit move to deal damage, Ice Beam giving a Freeze chance is fine since it' also used as a move to deal damage - now if there was a move that auto freezes you like sleep then it would also be uncompetitive. Adding to that, Paralyze is a fair status move that gives the lowering speed advantage so it is used strategically and not to fish for paralysis chances. When it comes to sleep, there's really no advantage other than leaving the entire game to dice rolls, like sleep accuracy, and sleep turns dice rolls which throws the matchup into the randomness.

It's not used in tournaments!!!
Do we really have to wait before someone get cheesed in a tournament to take action? But in all seriousness in no way the tiering policy framework say that we only cater to tournament plays. It states:

I.) To create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time.

II.) To ensure that both our ladder and tournament crowds are catered to regarding I.)

So removing sleep would better ensure that the "skilled" player/builder player wins over the less "skilled" player cause we removed one of the rng element that we can remove. It also caters to ladder players which enter a big part in the tiering policy since they also play the same game as we do.

Looking into abusers is really dumb too, we're looking into reducing RNG as much as we can, so banning one abuser will not do many wonder, au contraire it would make us lose legit strategies used, ex: specs sylveon, Wisp Mega Gengar, Sleepless Venu which all are viable on their own and can fit on other type of teams.

Again sleep IS NOT broken, it is UNCOMPETITIVE, and this is pretty important to remember when forming arguments with/against sleep.
 
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Rng has always been in pokemon (crits, secondary effects, accuracy, etc.) and sleep is no different. However, sleep is not broken, and has counterplay. Just because you can lose to rng (sleep in this case), should we then ban all rng elements? Should we ban king's rock or scope lens/razor claw just because it's uncompetitive? Should we ban serene grace or togekiss because it's uncompetitive? No, since it's not broken. Sleep also has drawbacks, since yawn users need protect/endure, and sleep powder users need an item to help them (wide lens).

Imo, if there is a mon that is too broken using sleep, then just ban that mon. We shouldn't ban the whole mechanic and make other viable mons unviable. However, there is no broken mons right now, the best being sylv, which wastes 2 moves slots for sleep so it's counterable.

also

Idk who said to ban ice beam (please go see your local doctor), but I think the real question will be "Oh if we ban sleep why not ban twave?". You also say that we shouldn't ban ice beam or tbolt since it does damage, but relic song exist (I know, barely anyone uses it but it exists). Also people fish for paralysis, don't know why you think they don't (example: togekiss).

While there is good points to ban sleep (no interactions and basically a diceroll), it's not broken, and we should keep it. (Also if you want to get rid of all the rng in this game go play digimon or something idk)
Short critique and sorry for formatting because mobile, but it's clear that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of tiering policy. The term "uncompetitive" is not in reference to a mon or strategy being "broken," despite the two being apt descriptors of bannable aspects of each metagame. Give this thread a read and it should help you understand the terminology for future discussions like these
 

recti

formerly Arvinraj K III C
Short critique and sorry for formatting because mobile, but it's clear that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of tiering policy. The term "uncompetitive" is not in reference to a mon or strategy being "broken," despite the two being apt descriptors of bannable aspects of each metagame. Give this thread a read and it should help you understand the terminology for future discussions like these
like i agree its not broken but the fact that u could turn a game u would lose to a win just by a click of a button is just also tom the term uncompettitive is basicaly is not skill ok
 
I’m simply making this post because I’m seeing the same arguments I’ve been seeing for years and it's getting on my nerves. This will be quick, I assure you.

I’ve long conceded that nothing will happen to sleep in 1v1 unless Game Freak does some absolute bullshittery within the next few years. Regardless, I’ve always been in the camp that a metagame where you have one pokemon and cannot switch is better off without a mechanic that prevents you from doing anything for a variable amount of turns. That is what Sleep is. I don’t think it's even comparable to something like paralysis, missing a move, or whatever half-bait refuse I’ve seen being spewed in discussion. Pretty big statistical difference

The reason we’ve been in this never-ending cycle of ban sleep / keep sleep is because the current abusers are middling at best compared to where we’ve set the standard of banworthiness. Those who’ve been around for quite a bit of time know what effective abusers of sleep look like. Look at SM Snorlax. It has various tools to abuse an opponent being unable to do anything for multiple turns with Z Belly Drum and the like. To make an imperfect SS comparison, look at Mimikyu. Mimikyu’s ability in Disguise is not sleep, but it's similar in the sense that it allows Mimikyu to abuse a turn in which its opponent can't really attack it. Not an apples-to-apples comparison, I know, but I hope that gives you more of an idea of where I’m coming from. They’re certainly on a higher level than Sleep Powder Venusaur or Yawners such as Sylveon and Swampert.

The real question we should be asking is where we draw the line here. There are obviously levels to this. While I’d be fine with removing sleep-inducing moves altogether, there are obviously others who disagree with this notion. I think it's quite clear that we need to etch out some policy that we should follow on what constitutes a banworthy sleep abuser. don’t think continuing this cycle is good for anyone.

Mubs out.
 

Sanshokuinsumireko

I got the baddest bitches in anime
Also something to note is that while in this scenario I'm discussing SS 1v1, I encourage the other generations to ban sleep as well. The farther back you go in generations, the more dangerous sleep becomes especially with users like hex mega gengar which is able to beat anything it outspeeds with a bit of luck and jumpluff which is the most iconic sleep speed trap 50/50 generator. I think every generation of 1v1 would be healthier without the bullshit that sleep encourages and it would improve every meta, even if sleep isn't considered broken in any of them.
Hi, If you're going to encourage us to look into scenarios and other stuff from other gens I suggest you use the "On The Radar" thread. The reason why I bring this up is that if look back at twenty pages it's mostly Sword and shield talk. Nobody from any gen other than SS wants to talk in a mostly SS-dominated field when this "problem" will most likely become a multi-generation problem. Also to finish it off "Before you post, please carefully consider whether your post belongs in Metagame Discussion or in this thread. Posts about metagame trends and new innovations belong in Metagame Discussion. Posts about the health of the metagame from a tiering perspective belong in On The Radar." Sleep will and always be talked about in a gen unless banned otherwise and is not a new trend or innovation. This is a talk about a tiering perspective.

Side Note: sleep most likely won't be getting banned in BW but that's imo.
 
Popping in to pop out again of 1v1,
here is my gen 8 trash dump:

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Magnezone @ Blunder Policy
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon / Thunder Wave / Electroweb
- Steel Beam
- Metal Sound / Thunderbolt / Body Press / Thunder
- Flash Cannon

Gimmick: Use Zap Cannon + Blunder Policy for a nearly guaranteed doubling of speed. Once you are travelling at light speed, you can decide to hit them with Steel Beam or Flash Cannon.
Speed EVs are to get past 140ish mons at 252+, SpA is to hit hard. The bulk and SpA are not optimized.
Other attacks are either to get around resists and stall. The italicized moves will also have a chance to trigger blunder policy. Turn your Thunder & Metal Sound misses into *2 speed. Missing a Zap Cannon and trying again is also an option (landing one of two has an accuracy of 75%). You can run Thunder Wave or Electroweb instead of Zap Cannon, but those who read this post will know you are a coward.

Wishiwashi-School @ Custap Berry
Ability: Schooling
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Def / 88 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Endeavor
- Brine
- Toxic
- Ice Beam

Gimmick: Wishiwashi's poor HP coupled with Endeavor will put your foe directly in Brine territory. If they knock you down too low and you revert to a single fishiwashi, you have custap and a stab boosted 130 damage brine to do that little bit of % left in the opponent.
Toxic & endeavor will get around some stallers. EV's are set to maximize bulk but are unoptimized. Going lower in HP means stronger endeavors.

Raichu-Alola @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Electric Terrain
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Tackle
- Feint

Gimmick: Hit either physically or specially with a large electric move after E terrain.
Colbur Berry is to get around incoming dark attacks like knock off or sucker punch. EVs are purely for priority.

Dusknoir @ Figy Berry
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Disable
- Protect
- Infestation
- Pain Split

Gimmick: Troll to scout choice users and be able to disable them T1. Zero predictions, large threat.
Not as good as Mega Banette was at this, but it does have the bulk to live a single attack.
 
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