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I agree w/ most of what you said talking about returning mons although I do have some things to add. This thing is bulky as hell and Steel/Flying is quite a ridiculous typing as most know. You forgot to mention Sub Seed and while 61 is quite an odd speed tier for it I think it's def worth mentioning. I really doubt Registeel will be suspect worthy. While resist berry Counter seems kinda scary for mitigating its weaknesses idrc that does enough to make it banworthy. Fires will always send this thing to the mon and special attackers w/ super-effective stab will likely blow past the berries. A lot of returning mons make this thing's life hell such as Garchomp, Blace, Lando-I, and Heatran. Don't interpret this the wrong way, Registeel is going to be insanely good but calling it suspect worthy is hella jumping the gun. This will be fine. It got Eerie Impulse idt it's really ever wanted to be a Pressure staller anyways and Zapdos has a lot of good tools. Typing and stats are just incredibly nice for a bunch of various stuff I can see this being quite decent. This is worse Rilla, not vise versa. It has a whole 5 more attack than Rilla which means very little. Rilla has High Horsepower (unaffected by Terrian) and Fake Out over Tapu Bulu both of which are quite good in this meta. It's also just as fat (higher HP offsets slightly worse defenses) and faster by 10 points which is nice since you don't have to invest a whole lot in speed because of the natural 85 tier. It'll really be a matter if Fairy typing/stab is any good because as is Rilla is a better Bulu atm. I love this shit. If I pass you a team and it doesn't have a Tran it is not my team.
1. Ban/Suspect most of the problematic mons to mantain a power crept SS, which means Dragonite, Tapu Lele, Victini, Tapu Koko, Kartana, Tapu Bulu, Zygarde, Cresselia would all be in contention to get suspected and banned, +/- other mons that I haven't rated correctly
First off I disagree w/ mass banning just to preserve the same power level DLC 1 had. DLC 2 is going to drastically change the landscape and trying to prevent that idt is a worthwhile endeavor. Half of the mons you listed are more likely than not worth our time in suspecting but I don't want to say anything blanket so I'll go over each on its own. I agree this mon is going to be insane and should 100% be one of the first things we look at for a suspect/QB. Multiscale and its typing/movepool/stats just make an obscenely powerful combo. Don't have much else to add I will hold off on a big ban post until DLC 2 has dropped. This one me to me is entirely dependent on it getting Expanding Force. Nr much to say rather than w/o Expanding Force it'll be fine and w/ Expanding Force it requires serious consideration. Uhhh, I mean maybe? This would def be on the backburner of things to discuss for a ban. Yeah I agree it looks quite good but things banned in the past have nr been a combination of good traits and more one huge problem such as monstrous bulk (Kyurem-Black and Melmetal) or gimmicks that require unintuitive counterplay (Mimikyu and Mew.) Nothing pops out as to what makes Victini "broken" so I'm highly skeptical of this being broken. This is going to be the menace it was in SM but worse. It got Eerie Impulse, Play Rough, and may be getting Rising Voltage. I'm pretty much convinced this should be QB'd p soon after DLC 2 drops but we'll see ig. This has a slew of weaknesses in 1v1 that obscene strength for sure is p good but it's walled by a decent amount and nr impossible to kill. Shouldn't be completely counted out but I really doubt it will be broken if I'm being honest. At best this is slightly better Rilla don't see this being anywhere near busted. Yeah bulk is gonna be p insane I think this being broken or not relies mostly on how the meta settles after other bans which is prob a sign this thing is kinda nutty. It will prob have a fair amount of counterplay but to me it's really a matter if this thing can tank the important attackers w/o going Complete since most have no reason to put you in Complete unless they literally have to because of choice or smth similar. This should be looked at but to me it's low priority. Unless Mail makes a comeback this thing will still be highly susceptible to anti-stall measures and unlikely to be a centralizing force when anti-stall measures being on teams has always been smth in this meta.
2. Keep most of the mons unbanned and only ban extremely broken ones, like Dragonite. This second solution would see an extreme gap between Pokemon that are considered top tier and Pokemon that are slightly below. Mons like Primarina and Sylveon, who are now considered extremely strong pioneers of the meta, would pale in comparison to mons like Tapu Lele or Diancie. Mons like Corsola-Galar, Arcanine, Gastrodon and Slowbro would barely have any gimmick over Cresselia and Registeel. 1v1 would also be incentivized to re-suspecting banned mons to balance the tier, like
yeah sure why not, doesn't seem that broken given what's coming back with mons like Kartana in the tier I can definitely see this one not being that broken dont even think about unbanning this no. game-breaking gimmicks. To not unban under any circumstance.
I agree w/ this list I made like two posts discussing why already but what I'd like to add is we should focus on bans before unbans. The meta should be stable (heh) before thinking about re-introducing anything.
I'm going to make a megapost when the tier actually drops/when world cup is over but for now those are my thoughts. Thanks for reading.
So we've received a list of all the tutor moves that old pokemon will be able to learn through pokemon home, and wanted to discuss my thoughts on how this helps the pokemon that will be coming in dlc2.. (As well as leaked moveset tweaks that happened beforehand). Bolded = Highlights
Unbolded = doesn't do anything really
Jynx
Electivire
Magmortar
Omastar
Kabutops
Articuno
Moltres
Sceptile
Altaria
Cradily
Armaldo
Absol
Walrein
Spiritomb
Uxie/Mesprit/Azelf
Regigigas (Unless they free Huge Power)
Audino
Cryogonal
Tornadus-I
Tornadus-T (Why would you ever use this in a non-6v6 format)
Thundurus-I
Tyrantrum
Aurorus
Carbink
Guzzlord
Sand Tomb, Mud Shot, Rock Blast, Hex, High Horsepower, Body Press
Tutor Moves: Scorching Sands
The nidos don't really get anything new this gen, like at all.
I can see nidoking get some kind of usage, might be somewhat useful in checking the tapus - tapu lele.
Crobat will still act fairly the same it did last gen, but will prob be very bad without z-moves, speed tying with koko is also sad, but it does a reliable job at countering the tapus, except scarf lele.
Hurricane exists if you want to go the special route, but idk.
Oml, aero finally got a usable flying stab, idk what to say, it'll prob just stick to pressure stalling, but this could be cool for some more offensive sets.
Hail, Weather Ball, Eerie Impulse, Air Slash, Brave Bird, Hurricane
Tutor Moves: Dual Wingbeat, Rising Voltage
Like Aero, Zapdos will probably stick to it's pressure stall shenanigans, but special flying stabs also help it.
I'm honestly kind of scared of eeriee impulse on this thing, not only pressure stalling slower threats, but also having good odds to beat faster special attackers with eerie impulse+roost seems kind of threatening on paper.
Fire Spin, Breaking Swipe, Hydro Pump, Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Air Slash, Body Press
Tutor Moves: Dual Wingbeat, Scale Shot
So special Dnite gets a few new tools it can abuse, and not have to rely on hurricane misses, Dual Wingbeat makes for good physical flying stab as well. Scale Shot is interesting, and might work as a tech to beat opposing dnites, and faster haban dragons.
This is probably the first thing being suspect tested once dlc comes out, I doubt this'll be one of the mons that will be quickbanned by council.
Helping Hand, Electric Terrain, Eerie Impulse, Agility, Scald, Aura Sphere, Weather Ball
Tutor Moves: Rising Voltage
Eerie Impulse+Rest Raikou seems incredibly disgusting, shutting down pretty much every special attacker slower than it and most likely winning the pp war, scald exists to help it against rock and ground types (idk if it'll even be able to win vs those grounds), and can also probably be used to hax a burn in and shut down physical attackers that don't have stab ground moves.
Aura Sphere is also a thing, i guess.
Idk, this seems like it'll work the same, Flare Blitz is an option if you want to be more accurate and deal more damage, but sacred fire should probably be used over it 100% of the time.
Blaziken is a welcome adition, sub reversal will prob be huge again, kind of sucks that it's speed is so trash it gets outsped by scarf darmg at +1 tho.
Sand Tomb, Bulk Up, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower, Liquidation, Body Press, Swift
Tutor Moves: None
Swamp will be doing the same things it did last gen honestly, yawn and be able to 2hko most threats is important, Getting Liquidation is a good upgrade and darkest lariat is some neat coverage
Body Press, Sand Tomb, Rock Blast, Scary Face, Hydro Pump (wat), Crunch, High Horsepower, Swift
Tutor Moves: Meteor Beam, Steel Roller
Body Press is an interesting addition, it probably won't be using ID+Press that much though because of it's niche in having sturdy+metal burst.
Rock Blast, Liquidation, Body Press
Tutor Moves: Meteor Beam, Scale Shot
Yawn+Sturdy exists, but it lacks the tools to 2hko most of the metagame.
Cosmic Power is interesting, coupled with clear body means that it can't receive debuffs, but idk how much this'll be useful to it.
Sand Tomb, Rock Blast, Flash Cannon, Heavy Slam, Body Press
Tutor Moves: Meteor Beam
Essentially unkillable to physical attackers, counter will be it's main niche, but body press+Iron Defense exist as well to make it a poor man's registeel.
Icicle Spear, Heavy Slam
Unkillable to special attackers, Amnesia+Rest exists, but it's much less useful to it's role than regirock is, due to not learning mirror coat and there not being a spdef based body press.
Sand Tomb, Heavy Slam, Body Press
Tutor Moves: Meteor Beam, Steel Roller
Regi does the same things it did last gen, but gets an actual offensive presence with iron defense and body press, is able to be much less passive than last gen, and can still punish physical attackers with counter.
Assuming these won't be immediately banned:
Psycho Cut, Mystical Fire, Air Slash, Breaking Swipe, Agility, Tri Attack, Baton Pass, Future Sight, Aura Sphere (Latias gets DD)
Tutor Moves: Dual Wingbeat, Scale Shot
Unsure if these will be busted, due to pult existing as well as the tapu that are going to be running rampant, dragonite also almost invalidates their usage.
Breaking Swipe
Tutor Moves: Scale Shot, Scorching Sands
Aight, this is just theorymoning, but scale shot could actually work on garchomp, a reason to use it over rock tomb would be it breaking through a haban berry on dragonite (Would also have to be running haban, and just loses to ice beam dnite) and a sub dragapult and being able to outspeed them.
Where's my DD chomper
Self Destruct, Body Slam, Heavy Slam, Heat Crash, Body Press
Tutor Moves; Burning Jealousy, Scorching Sands, Steel Roller
Heatran will be a welcome presence, dealing with fairies not named koko, prim and fini.
Doesn't really get new tools, but Heatran's just good, so it doesn't matter all that much.
Would be wary of feeling comfortable bringing this onto fire types tho, a lot of them now get scorching sands.
Power Swap, Guard Swap, Body Slam, Cosmic Power, Stored Power
Tutor Moves: Expanding Force
WHY
Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Fire Spin, Swift, Power Swap, Guard Swap, Speed Swap, Mystical Fire, Baton Pass, Encore, Future Sight, Blaze Kick
Tutor Moves: Expanding Force, Scorching Sands
Sands is interesting, gives it a surprise way to deal with heatran.
I guess this can use shell smash+power herb Meteor Beam?
Swift, Rock Blast, Assurance, Endure, Air Slash
Tutor Moves: Dual Wingbeat, Lash Out, Meteor Beam Getting endure means it can use salac and liechi berr I'm stupid.
Does get access to flying stab though.
Scary Face, Weather Ball, Assurance, Eerie Impulse, Body Slam, Endure, Electro Ball
Tutor Moves: Rising Voltage, Lash Out
I can see this using NP+Endure with salac or petaya.
Losing z-moves sucks a lot for lando-t, these will both be doing similar things though.
Swift, Assurance, Leech Life, Endure, Blaze Kick (Was event exclusive, which also means gene doesn't need to be shiny anymore)
Tutor Moves: None
Slightly dissapointed this didn't get steel beam, but gene's gonna make everyone run 4 spdef ev's again so that's fun, endure could probably be used in some way.
Swift, Payback, Breaking Swipe, Body Slam, Reversal, Endure, High Horsepower
Tutor Moves: Scale Shot, Scorching Sands, Skitter Smack (wat)
I think we can all assume Power Construct will be banned af, but zyg still looks like a good bulky offensive mon with DD or Coil.
BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN
For real, this mon gets 140bp electric move+terrain+stab, charge, iron defense, now eerie impulse if it wants to beat down special attackers even harder, roost, Stored Power so it can abuse it's ID+Charge boosts (this'll let it beat ground types), and why not just sprinkle in a few physical moves as well, just to make it worse.
Mega Punch, Rest, Revenge, Bullet Seed, Power Swap, Guard Swap, Endure, Close Combat, Stored Power, Play Rough, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower
Tutor Moves: Grassy Glide, Misty Explosion, Terrain Pulse
Probably much less busted than the previous tapus, priority grass type move coming from a 130 attack mon is destroying a lot of mons.
Also gets some much needed physical coverage.
Tapu Fini getting rest is kind of a big deal, it gives fini a reason to run Telepathy (Which it is confirmed to be able to get thanks to the new hidden ability capsules), and all Tapu Fini needed was reliable recovery, it can definitely use nature's madness+brine, but ID, CM sets with rest can also come to light.
THE UB GANG
Rock Slide, Rock Tomb, Cross Poison, Hex, Body Slam, Endure
Tutor Moves: Corrosive Gas, Meteor Beam
Nihilego might be a very good abuser of power herb+Meteor Beam, but might need to stick to air balloon.
Revenge, Body Slam, Close Combat (Wait, this didnt get cc), Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower
Tutor Moves: Coaching, Dual Wingbeat
Flying coverage is neat, Close Combat is better than superpower, so that's something.
Assurance, Endure, Close Combat
Tutor Moves: Coaching, Skitter Smack
Physical struggle bug could maaaaaybe have some use, but phero seems to frail to warant it.
Endure, Electro Ball
Tutor Moves: Rising Voltage
Endure is neat, will probably be able to use it to get hypnosis's up on faster threats with salac, and be able to tail glow up for free.
Self-Destruct, Body Slam, Endure, Megahorn, Cosmic Power
Tutor Moves: Grassy Glide, Steel Roller
This gets... wait i think my eyes might be deceiving me, there's no way...
Who thought, that this mon needed cosmic power, seriously, why, sub seed+CM sounds disgusting.
Solar Blade, Screech, Endure
Tutor Moves: Grassy Glide
I mean, this mon hits hard, that's it's stick, no body press is a bit lame, but it makes sense.
Kinda sick that it gets hazards like that, but not much it can use in 1v1, specs will still hit stupid hard though and deals with koko pretty nicely.
Mega Kick, Body Slam, Earthquake, Endure, Heavy Slam, Heat Crash, High Horsepower, Body Press
Tutor Moves: Meteor Beam, Steel Roller
Body Press is cool and all, but hardly see a reason to run this over registeel
Fire Punch, Solar Beam, Fire Spin, Self-Destruct, Rock Blast, Shadow Claw, Mystical Fire, Endure, Encore, Zen Headbutt
Tutor Moves: Expanding Force, Scorching Sands
Scorching Sands is neat, makes it deal with heatran.
Helping Hand, Electric Terrain, Eerie Impulse, Agility, Scald, Aura Sphere, Weather Ball
Tutor Moves: Rising Voltage
Eerie Impulse+Rest Raikou seems incredibly disgusting, shutting down pretty much every special attacker slower than it and most likely winning the pp war, scald exists to help it against rock and ground types (idk if it'll even be able to win vs those grounds), and can also probably be used to hax a burn in and shut down physical attackers that don't have stab ground moves.
Aura Sphere is also a thing, i guess.
The Complete Guide to Milcery MonoPoke You Never Knew You Needed
Introduction
The Immortal, former 1v1 tier leader and monopoke god, created a Milcery monopoke tournament a few days ago. I lost in round 1 of the tournament. (Last Resort fails if it's your only move. Who knew?). However, I created a PP stall set with Krytocon and Yash (Mr. Mime fan) after I lost that defeated The Immortal in the finals of the tour. (I consider myself a bit of a PP stall aficionado. As Rumplestiltskin seems to have abandoned regular 1v1 for real 1v1, I find it left to me to carry the torch of hard PP stall.)
The tour over, that should have been the end of it. But I felt that Milcery's potential hadn't been fully unlocked. Usually monopoke comes down to one or two Rock Paper Scissors sets that all beat each other, or just speed ties if it's too easy for the Pokemon to KO itself. Milcery is different. Milcery's complete lack of offensive ability and meager movepool would seem to limit the 1v1ers options down to almost nothing. But as I explored the possibilities, Milcery opened up a myriad of avenues to travel down. Here I present to the 1v1 community a hopefully complete sketch of the Milcery monopoke metagame.
Background
Milcery is a fairy-type introduced in generation VIII. It evolves into Alcremie while holding a Sweet when its Trainer spins and strikes a pose. The form it evolves into depends on time of day, the length of the spin, and whether the Trainer was spinning clockwise or counterclockwise. It is also dependent on the type of Sweet that is held. It can be found on Route 4, in Bridge Field or Giant's Mirror during fog, or in a Max Raid Battle in Bridge Field or Lake of Outrage or in a Max Raid Battle in Wild Area News from January 30 - February 16, 2020. It has a base stat total of 270, with its greatest stat being base 61 Special Defense, and its lowest being base 34 Speed. It learns only a paltry 30 moves, notably Tackle, Entrainment, Aromatic Mist, Recover, and Acid Armor (by level up), Rest, Fling, Stored Power, and Charm (by TM), and Baby Doll Eyes, and Last Resort (by egg move).
Sets
I believe that the Milcery monopoke metagame has room for numerous strategies and counter-strategies to be employed, leading to an interesting and diverse metagame.
Milcery has such weak attacking stats that it has no way to OHKO itself, leaving attacking strategies at a disadvantage. Additional obstacles to attacking strategies include one of its highest PP moves being Baby Doll Eyes and its highest base stat being Special Defense. With that in mind, a PP stall strategy seems to be the best first step in the set building process.
On our very first set we see some interesting developments. I've left off Tackle on this set, even though it has the most PP of any of Milcery's moves. This is in order to avoid dealing any damage at all to our opponent. This prevents them from falling asleep when they use Rest, turning it from a 48 PP move into a 16 PP move. However, this set is vulnerable to a set like the following which eschews any healing moves for an additional 8 PP.
This set would lose to any healing move plus a way to deal damage, making it a little suspect. Replacing Acid Armor with Rest would yield 16 additional PP if your opponent is willing to damage you.
If your opponent won't damage you, damage yourself with Flame Orb! This is sort of the level 1 of Rest PP stall tactics, as you would get to use Rest because of the Flame Orb burn, while you never damage your opponent, preventing them from using Rest.
Now this is some spice, and is what really got me interested in Milcery. It would seem that Milcery monopoke ends at PP stalling with Rest. But Milcery is far more interesting than that. Milcery's abilities are Aroma Veil, which "Protects user/allies from Attract, Disable, Encore, Heal Block, Taunt, and Torment", and Sweet Veil which prevents the Pokemon and its allies from falling asleep. And it learns the move Entrainment, which changes the opponent's ability to match your own. So we use Entrainment to give our opponent Sweet Veil, preventing them from using Rest and allowing us to Tackle them to 0%.
This set is a little more theoretical. It gives you a 260 base power Stored Power, which is a 3HKO on max HP max SpD Milcery. A critical hit into an attack has an 81.3% chance to KO an opposing Milcery at +6 SpD. I think in a developed metagame, where other people are trying to out PP stall and out Entrainment each other, a Stored Power set could sneak in as an anti-meta tech.
Similiar to the Stored Power set, I believe a physical Last Resort set could take advantage of a developed metagame. The problem with any physical Milcery set, though, is that Baby Doll Eyes has 48 PP, second in PP only to Tackle in Milcery's movepool. This makes a physical moveset problematic.
Some calcs
Physical
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Milcery Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Milcery: 136-160 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Milcery Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Milcery: 204-240 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Normal Gem Milcery Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Milcery: 147-174 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Normal Gem Milcery Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Milcery: 221-260 (75.1 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Milcery Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Milcery: 136-160 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO
Special
252+ SpA Milcery Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Milcery: 171-202 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Requires both Acid Armor and Aromatic Mist)
252+ SpA Milcery Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Milcery: 112-132 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Milcery Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milcery on a critical hit: 250-295 (85 - 100.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Milcery Stored Power (260 BP) vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milcery: 42-50 (14.2 - 17%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Milcery Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Milcery: 93-110 (31.6 - 37.4%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO
(Just Acid Armor/Aromatic Mist)
Z-Move
252+ Atk Milcery Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Milcery: 242-285 (82.3 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(This obviously will only be relevant if Z-Moves are reintroduced to gen 8.)
Conclusion
I've met some people I consider real friends playing 1v1, and I've enjoyed coming back these last few weeks. I hope with this guide the 1v1 community can continue to develop the Milcery monopoke metagame and all 1v1 metagames.
Inpiration- Kentari’s in depth Monopoke milcery post gave me an idea. Why not do this for the engaging and very fun metagame of monopoke ditto?
Introduction- Monopoke ditto seems interesting. What will be the main strategies?
And i respond to that with. There are a couple of different strategies. The main one being Lagging tail, although there are some variations. The idea is to run limber(ideally both should be running limber if the opponent runs imposter it’s basically a gueranteed win for you.) and move last. You move last for your opponent to copy you first. In turn making them struggle first as transformed mons get only 5 pp iirc. And if you move last they struggle to death. We’ll go see some Do’s and Don’ts in this meta now
Do‘s- these are what you should do
Keep your level lower then your opponents if your lagging tail and they are too.
- speed nature and 0 speed ivs.
Do not do the Don’ts
Don’ts- these are common mistakes making your sets weak to the common ones DO NOT RUN IMPOSTER- for reasons i have explained earlier Do not run speed DO NOT MAKE IT LEVEL 1- while this is the most common mistake. Let me explain why. Level 1 allows you to safely move last all the time. (If your lagging tail and the oponent is too or you are any item and the opponent is not lagging tail. While this makes your opponent struggle first. You die to struggle. Enabling them to win.
This set is the most commonly ran and can be used early rounds in tours . Threats- Lower level lagging tail.
Dittos which are also lagging tail and have less level can win by moving last. Be aware of that. This set should beat metal powder and leppa berry too due to lagging tail. Even if they are a low level.
Strengths- Beating almost all no lagging tail dittos. Most people early rounds who do-not know much about the meta will bring another variant. Allowing you to beat it
Set 2- The lower level lagging tail variant
Ditto @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Limber
Level: Go a lower level then what your opponent will bring( ie- level 93, level 47)
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Transform
This is the part where the meta becomes interesting. You will see this set being used later on usually.
Threats - Lower level lagging tail variants( as it’s a creep game it becomes harder.) Will need to research more on lower level lagging tail threats
Strengths- Beats most of the meta if it can succesfully move last and succeed. Beats most non lagging tail variants too
This is my original idea and i really like it. The main issue with this is that it loses to most all lagging tail variants leaving it susceptible to a common set in the meta. Threats- Lagging Tail
Strengths- Beats ALL non lagging tail variants i believe. (Such as the more niche choice band and leppa). And it can beat opposing metal powder by our good friend level creep. If you know your opponent won’t bring lagging tail, this is your best bet. Use with caution though
Conclusion-
I’ve loved developing this meta and playing monopoke milcery with kentari too. I look forward to doing more introduction to monopokes. Stay tuned people.
Monopoke ditto is an interesting topic and would love to further develop the meta.
The Complete Guide to Milcery MonoPoke You Never Knew You Needed
Introduction
The Immortal former 1v1 tier leader and monopoke god, created a Milcery monopoke tournament a few days ago. I lost in round 1 of the tournament. (Last Resort fails if it's your only move. Who knew?). However, I created a PP stall set with Krytocon and Yash (Mr. Mime fan) after I lost that defeated The Immortal in the finals of the tour. (I consider myself to be a PP stall aficionado, and as Rumplestiltskin seems to have abandoned regular 1v1 for real 1v1, I find it left to me to carry the torch of hard PP stall.)
The tour over, that should have been the end of it. But I felt that Milcery's potential hadn't been fully unlocked. Usually monopoke comes down to one or two Rock Paper Scissors sets that all beat each other, or just speed ties if its too easy for the Pokemon to KO itself. Milcery is different. Milcery's complete lack of offensive ability and meager movepool, would seem to limit the 1v1ers options down to almost nothing. But as I explored the possibilities, Milcery opened up a myriad of options. Here I present to the 1v1 community a hopefully complete sketch of the Milcery monopoke metagame.
Background
Milcery is a fairy-type introduced in generation VIII. It evolves into Alcremie while holding a Sweet when its Trainer spins and strikes a pose. The form it evolves into depends on time of day, the length of the spin, and whether the Trainer was spinning clockwise or counterclockwise. It is also dependent on the type of Sweet that is held. It can be found on Route 4, in Bridge Field or Giant's Mirror during fog, or in a Max Raid Battle in Bridge Field or Lake of Outrage or in a Max Raid Battle in Wild Area News from January 30 - February 16, 2020. It has a base stat total of 270, with its greatest stat being base 61 Special Defense, and its lowest being base 34 Speed. It learns only a paltry 30 moves, notably Tackle, Entrainment, Aromatic Mist, Recover, and Acid Armor (by level up), Rest, Fling, Stored Power, and Charm (by TM), and Baby Doll Eyes, and Last Resort (by egg move).
Sets
I believe that the Milcery monopoke metagame has room for numerous strategies and counter-strategies to be employed, leading to an interesting and diverse metagame.
Milcery has such weak attacking stats that it has no way to OHKO itself, leaving attacking strategies at a disadvantage. Additional obstacles to attacking strategies include one of its highest PP moves being Baby Doll Eyes and its highest base stat being Special Defense. With that in mind, a PP stall strategy seems to be the best first step in the set building process.
On our very first set we see some interesting developments. I've left off Tackle on this set in order to avoid dealing any damage at all to our opponent. This prevents them from falling asleep when they use Rest, turning it from a 48 PP move into a 16 PP move. However, this set is vulnerable to a set like the following which eschews any healing moves for an additional 8 PP.
This set would lose to any healing move plus a way to deal damage, making it a little suspect. Replacing Acid Armor with Rest would yield 16 additional PP if your opponent is willing to damage you.
If your opponent won't damage you, damage yourself with Flame Orb! This is sort of the level 1 of Rest PP stall tactics, as you would get to use Rest because of the Flame Orb burn, while you never damage your opponent, preventing them from using Rest.
Now this is some spice, and is what really got me interested in Milcery. It would seem that Milcery monopoke ends at PP stalling with Rest. But Milcery is far more interesting than that. Milcery's abilities are Aroma Veil, which "Protects user/allies from Attract, Disable, Encore, Heal Block, Taunt, and Torment", and Sweet Veil which prevents the Pokemon and its allies from falling asleep. And it learns the move Entrainment, which changes the opponent's ability to match your own. So we use Entrainment to give our opponent Sweet Veil, preventing them from using Rest and allowing us to Tackle them to 0%.
This set is a little more theoretical. It gives you a 260 base power Stored Power, which is a 3HKO on max HP max SpD Milcery. A critical hit into an attack has an 81.3% chance to KO. I think in a developed metagame, where other people are trying to out PP stall and out Entrainment each other, a Stored Power set could sneak in as an anti-meta tech.
Similiar to the Stored Power set, I believe a physical Last Resort set could take advantage of a developed metagame. The problem with any physical Milcery set, though, is that Baby Doll Eyes has 48 PP, second in PP only to Tackle in Milcery's movepool. This makes a physical moveset problematic.
Some calcs
Physical
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Milcery Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Milcery: 136-160 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Milcery Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Milcery: 204-240 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Normal Gem Milcery Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Milcery: 147-174 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Normal Gem Milcery Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Milcery: 221-260 (75.1 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Milcery Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Milcery: 136-160 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO
Special
252+ SpA Milcery Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Milcery: 171-202 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Requires both Acid Armor and Aromatic Mist)
252+ SpA Milcery Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Milcery: 112-132 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Milcery Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milcery on a critical hit: 250-295 (85 - 100.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Milcery Stored Power (260 BP) vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milcery: 42-50 (14.2 - 17%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Milcery Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Milcery: 93-110 (31.6 - 37.4%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO
(Just Acid Armor/Aromatic Mist)
Z-Move
252+ Atk Milcery Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Milcery: 242-285 (82.3 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(This obviously will only be relevant if Z-Moves are reintroduced to gen 8.)
Conclusion
I've met some people I consider real friends playing 1v1, and I've enjoyed coming back these last few weeks. I hope with this guide the 1v1 community can continue to develop the Milcery monopoke metagame and all 1v1 metagames.
Can we actually make this into a thread the way beat this team or the find a niche ones are? Like each week is a different Pokemon and people come up sets for it and at the end of the week there’s like a room tour where you use what you learned from the thread to build or steal a set. And there could be a hall of fame for the best set made and for the tour winner. That would be hype as hell
Can we actually make this into a thread the way beat this team or the find a niche ones are? Like each week is a different Pokemon and people come up sets for it and at the end of the week there’s like a room tour where you use what you learned from the thread to build or steal a set. And there could be a hall of fame for the best set made and for the tour winner. That would be hype as hell
i understand you guys are wanting to go the "fun" way with officials seeing as monopoke is in them, but i think that cap 1v1 should be replaced because there's been a consistent lack of interest in playing in the tournaments, and the only reason a lot of people would actually join them is because of them being official. just look at this tour, that happened right after the announcement that cap 1v1 was going to have an official slot. this isn't just an outlier though, this tour got 5 players and 3 of them left after realizing cap / one of them were dq'ed. these were both at some of the most active hours btw, with the first linked being 2pm edt and second being 4pm edt. oh yeah and btw this was finals of the former https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1171131170.
i don't have an ss of the voting but iirc on the room poll of what should be in next month's official cap was one of the least voted for while monopoke / natdex were the most popular. questionable decision to add it when most people didn't even want it over another tier
looking at the official schedule now we have:
swsh x7
sm x4
oras x3
bw x2
dpp x2
adv x2
cap x2
natdex x2
monopoke x2
if you were going to remove cap next time around, an extra bw and dpp would be the best choice imo since they are more popular than any of the other tiers with the same amount (maybe other than monopoke but please no 4x monopoke)
or you could also go the oms way and replace it with mnm / lc / uu if they get more attention / startup by that point ig
e: the cap official player list 5 sec before it started LOL
The assualt vest is ruining the spacial attackers if u ev correctly you can bait pokemons and Ko it like vest dracovish 2hko primarina,primarina takes hit of most of spacial attackers like magnazone,porygyon-Z and others.Though i can't ask for getting this item banned (like cinderace i shouldn't have done that) but i want the staffs and member to look over it or unless.............
I think the assault vest is the best way to make some mons (especially pz) less broken. Banning it, in my opinion, would start a series of chain bans that, for now, would worsen the metagame.
Given how easy it is to slap AV on almost any mon and suddenly have a consistent pz / prim answer, it shouldn't be any surprise as to how centralising the item is in the current meta. While you could consider this to be unhealthy / overcentralising, I think we need to remember that AV isn't the only way to combat these threats, but rather, that it's the most consistent way that also has the added benefit of blanket checking majority of other prominent special attackers, which is why its usage is so high. In terms of managing the current meta, there's not really anything that can be done that doesn't directly contradict tiering policy. Although the policy was written for 6v6, the general ideas still apply. Of relevance are the following points, taken from the tiering policy, where you can read about them in more detail. But for the sake of my post, here they are.
II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.
Whatever possible actions that would be considered (purely hypothetically speaking, banning av / pz) would contradict one of, if not multiple ideas that the tier is structured around. AV spam is definitely not a way to justify bans / suspects of a pokemon, nor is it problematic enough to have the item banned itself. So, what's the solution for a meta that's arguably becoming very stale very quick? Some unbans could probably be considered, but above all else it's important to remember that AV is a current trend that likely won't hold its weight come the second DLC drop. This isn't an argument to support that we ditch "fixing" the meta because it's all going to change again, but rather is remniscent of the fact that every metagame is centralised around something in one way or another. For us, that happens to be AV.
AV is a very useful item, but to ban it would be precedent to ban highly used items like choice items, leftovers, life orb, etc. for being broadly useful. I think any talk of banning any item(s) needs to wait until the post-DLC2 metagame is well established before serious consideration can be had.
I think the assault vest is the best way to make some mons (especially pz) less broken. Banning it, in my opinion, would start a series of chain bans that, for now, would worsen the metagame.
If the message of your first post wasn't 'ban vest', what was it? Because 'hey council take a look at this item but do not ban it' doesn't make a lot of sense.
If the message of your first post wasn't 'ban vest', what was it? Because 'hey council take a look at this item but do not ban it' doesn't make a lot of sense.
Ok lads and laddies (smely socks) I've come here to talk about SS at large, and why it's terrible and what is causing that.
I'm sure it's not a very hot take at this point that SS has its fair share of issues. Currently, where a lot of people are feeling frustration is building and how the meta at large is pretty stagnant. The meta looks p similar to how it did day 1 of DLC w/ of course some exceptions such as (now) more niche mons such as Slowbro and Maro-A falling out of favor. I expected to see over time a bunch of resurgences of mons finding their niche once again however this hasn't really happened, Gardevior is really the only example of smth like this happening. This lack of change becomes really apparent in building. Most teams look incredibly similar w/ maybe one or two heat mons or some lure. Overall when building you're going to have a huge amount of overlap and my theory on this is because SS is incredibly top-heavy. If you've taken part in discussion regarding deciding a top 5 or the VR you've likely had the thought enter your mind that "there is no apparent ranking among the top." On paper this seems like a good thing but I've really found that when several mons simultaneously rule the meta that it hurts way more than it helps. I say this because when something is considered a "top threat" that generally means it covers a great amount of the meta as compared to its peers. Now what actually qualifies as a "top mon" is very much up for debate I think it's generally agreed that candidates that come up in that discussion are: and
I understand there is no way everyone agrees w/ me that this is the exact list of top mons, however for this post I will be using this list. I'll write a short bit on why I consider each of these mons "top mons" to make my view bit a more clearer.
This mon thrives off insane power. The general bulk level has dropped considerably from previous gens and PZ benefits a shit ton from this. Generally, anything that can take a hit doesn't appreciate a Trick or Eerie Impulse. There is also the annoying Chople PZ sets however that has fallen off considerable so I won't go too in-depth. PZ thrives off the meta, it is not bulky enough to handle Adaptability boosted Hyper Beams and PZ's various options make it shockingly multi-faceted.
This thing stole Zard's gimmick being unknown what form it is on preview, albeit Single Strike is considerably less splashable than Rapid Strike. Urshifu has excellent typing, bulk, and due to it's stupid broken signature move. Auto-crits is just so ludicrous, effectively ignoring boosts and drops singlehandedly invalidates stall pokemon, there are very few stall mons that can deal w/ both forms. Urshifu also does great against the meta mainstays, Sturdy mons. One of the scarier things about Urshi is its insane capabilities for running an assortment of items to lure many notable threats, this makes Urshi a headache in the builder and on preview. These items have relatively low opportunity cost and I'll note some of more prominent ones. beats and beats non- beats , , and beats and + albeit less reliably than the berries and has the cost of no ID/BU/Taunt
Prim has insane role compression. Its ability to run an item at basically no opportunity cost combined w/ its excellent stat distribution, wonderful typing, and great movepool makes Prim one of, if not the most, splashable mons in the meta. Prim is excellent at patching holes up in a team and generally covers a great amount of the meta. Its diversity makes it one of the better mons in the tier and generally improves a team w/ its presence.
Just stupid strong. I don't have much too add to that honestly however people are super sleeping on sub seed. W/ a Grassy Seed boost this mon is stupid bulky and covers a majority of the physical meta no longer having to fear a Counter. This mon doesn't really have the diversity of its peers, however this doesn't hold it back from being defining through its sheer strength.
I'll get to you later.
This mon is the epitome of a tank. Really goddamn fat, especially specially, however, it's also quite strong. This thing has quite an insane movepool that helps it both be one of the greatest stall mons and have an excellent offense presence w/ options such as and Yawn. This mon is also excellent at role compression and it can be quite tricky to guess the set as both cover pretty similar ground. It's also excellent Trick bait but even w/o the surprise factor Snorlax is one of the best things in the meta, one may say a sleeper threat.
Maybe you can drop or add a mon or two but for the sake of argument, these are the top dogs of SS atm. Now, let's get into their horrific MU chart.
This is simplified. For the sake of brevity, I did not include every single set but there I wanted to pull some stats from this graph. Wins one MU inherently, having odds in 3 others and strictly losing to Lax (that "usually " is a mistake, band lax always smashes PZ w/ a Giga Impact and takes jack from Hyper beam due to its immense special bulk) Wins one MU inherently, having odds in 3 others and strictly losing to Toge Wins no MUs inherently, has odds in 2 and strictly loses to Toge, Rillaboom, and Snorlax. Wins one MU inherently, has odds in 3 others and strictly loses to Toge. Wins three MUs inherently, has odds in 2 others and strictly loses to nothing.
I don't want "odds" to be misleading so I'll leave a graph.
Porygon-Z
Urshifu
Primarina
Rillaboom
Snorlax
Togekiss
Porygon-Z
X
PZ has better odds
PZ has better odds
Rilla has better odds
Snorlax wins
PZ has better odds
Urshifu
PZ has better odds
X
Prim has better odds
Rilla has better odds
Urshifu wins
Toge wins
Primarina
PZ has better odds
Prim has better odds
X
Rilla wins
Snorlax wins
Toge wins
Rillaboom
Rilla has better odds
Rilla has better odds
Rilla wins
X
Rilla has better odds(?)
Toge wins
Snorlax
Snorlax wins
Urshifu wins
Snorlax wins
Rilla has better odds(?)
X
Toge has better odds
Togekiss
PZ has better odds
Toge wins
Toge wins
Toge wins
Toge has better odds
X
Now this may seem incredibly gerrymandered so I want to highlight to me at least why this is incredibly important. In a meta where we have so many mons at the top which are co-dominant one reigns supreme which throws the whole balance off. Usually, at least in my opinion, mons near the top should keep each other in check leading to health centralization. Toge fucks this all up. Toge requires a consistent check on every team in addition to a check for the other top threats in the tier. They very rarely overlap, however graphs mean more than words so let's get it.
N/A if overlap doesn't apply due to the mon not beating Toge in the first place. Even overlap that isn't 100% consistent will be mentioned although not count towards the final stats.
RS= Rapid Strike SS=Single Strike
Ron=Chople Counter w/ Amnesia and Rest
Togekiss
Urshifu
Primarina
Rillaboom
Snorlax
Porygon-Z
Overlap
Darm-G
scarf should win unless vs yache counter(doesn't exist)
loses
loses to chilian
loses unless considerable bulk investment
loses unless vs band or darm-g is bd (lol)
scarf should win
1 MU
Dragapult
curse can p easily take out stall however scarf will smash you
should win
loses
really weird, terrible odds vs lo but p easily smashes subseed and band
should win
loses to scarf
N/A
Crustle
55% chance
loses
loses unless figy/vs not jet
wins vs band, loses to seed and mixed lo
wins
50/50 if pz bulks wrecker
N/A
Sylveon
loses to amnesia/marnga toge but vs choice only needs to dodge two flinches
wins
wins
loses
loses
wins unless vs impulse, kinda weird very set and play dependent
2.5 MUs
Zeraora
wins, wacan should just get knocked/set up on
loses vs wacan or ss, set dependent
wins
loses
loses vs band, can finess ron
loses unless endure
2 MUs, 2 others are techable
Arcanine
espeed makes it immune to flinches however vs any counter or bulkier variant it's suspect
loses
stall should win but has to be wary of cm/encore
wins
loses vs ron
loses unless av
1 MU, 2 others are winnable
Azumarill
ur gonna need to dodge a few flinches as azu doesn't do enough through jet alone, stazu loses
wins vs non-roseli
loses
stazu wins unless rilla is taunt
loses
loses unless av/chilian
N/A
Dracovish
drops to gleam but ye you drop bulkier variants
loses
loses unless spdef bang
loses
wins
loses
N/A
Haxorous
drops to gleam
loses
loses
wins vs non-seed
wins vs non-bulky ass band
wins as scarf
N/A
Kyurem
assualt vest smashes toge unless you get really unlucky w/ twave paras
loses
bulky noble roar/av variants smash prim
wins
loses
wins as av
2 MUs, one techable (run AV bro)
Magnezone
loses to wacan but washes the other sets
loses vs wacan or ss
wins
loses
loses
wins vs non-impulse
2.5 MUs
Rotom-Wash
wins p damn consistently
loses vs wacan or ss
wins
loses
loses to CB, wins vs ron if you guess set
loses
1.5 MUs
Aromatisse
abysmal odds
loses LOL awful pokemon blast bounces off rs
wins
loses?
loses vs band, wins vs ron
loses
N/A
Corsola-Galar
gets tricked/np'd+para'd, auto loss or abysmal odds
loses
wins
wins
wins vs band, loses to tackle lax
loses
N/A
Chandelure
needs to dodge a flinch/set guees/be scarf, overall not reliable at all
loses
loses
wins
loses
wins vs non-impulse
N/A
Chansey
gets tricked then slept on, not counting this as a win at all
loses
wins
loses
loses vs ron
loses
N/A
Dracozolt
dropped by gleam
wins vs non-ss
wins
wins vs non-seed
wins
loses
N/A
Gardevior
speed ties/flinches, entirely down to chance vs scarf and you lose to bulkier variants unless you trick
wins
wins vs non-encore
loses
loses vs band
loses
N/A
Hydregion
an entire family of hydregions is slaughtered by a gleam
loses unless specs
loses
wins
loses
loses
N/A
Kommo-o
bye bye
can win, weird one
loses
wins
wins
loses
N/A
Porygon-2
gets trick'd/np'd+para'd, poor odds when you consider roost means bolt beam does negligible
loses
wins vs non-cm
loses
loses
loses
N/A
Rotom-Heat
wins v consistently
loses unless scarf vs non-wacan
wins unless vs av
wins
loses
loses
2.5 MUs
Sawk
loses af
loses
loses unless figy/vs non-jet
loses vs seeds
wins unless vs chople yawn
wins
N/A
Slowbro
stall mons don't win
wins vs non-ss
loses
loses
wins
loses
N/A
Skarmory
skarm SHOULD win, bulky twave can finess
wins
loses
wins
not 100% on this one tbh
wins
3 MUs
Volcarona
loses to slash
loses unless you can hit a hurricane w/ specs
loses
wins
loses
loses
N/A
Aegislash
gets finessed by maranga but should win vs scarf
loses
loses
wins unless vs seeds
wins vs ron
wins if cc
3 really shaky MUS
Avalugg
55%
loses
loses vs jet
wins
loses vs ron
wins
N/A
Celebi
smashed by slash
wins if you drop a move for gleam also beats ss
wins
wins vs non-knock
loses to band
loses
N/A
Conkeldurr
slash/gleam nuke it
loses
loses unless fast band vs slow prim
loses
need to setguess
wins
N/A
Darmanitan
blitz nukes scarf but recoil bites it in the ass vs specs
loses
loses
wins
loses
wins
2 MUs
Diggersby
55%
loses
wins unless vs chilian
loses
wins
loses
N/A
Durant
terrible odds considering scarf nukes you w/ blast or only needs a flinch and considering durant has hustle that's likely
loses
wins unless vs chilian
wins
loses vs ron
wins
N/A
Gastrodon
abysmal odds vs scarf and even worse vs np
loses
loses to eball/encore
loses
loses vs ron
loses unless chilian
N/A
Goodra
goodra should win most of the time w/o absurd flinches if dual poison attacks, maranga has solid odds vs goodra however
loses
wins vs non-av/non-wp
wins
wins
loses
2.5 MUs
Hawlucha
gets slammed by its stab
wins
loses
wins
loses vs ron
loses unless endure
N/A
Mandibuzz
gets slammed by gleam/trick/np/twave
loses
comes down to set/crits
wins
wins vs band, lax comes down to play
loses
N/A
Marowak-A
55% vs scarf and from bulkier loses
loses
loses
wins
loses vs cb, wins vs ron
loses
N/A
Rhyperior
specs smashes you w/ gknot but other sets stand no chance
loses
loses
loses
wins
wins
2 MUs
Salazzle
55% vs scarf
loses
wins unless vs av
wins
loses vs cb
loses
N/A
Venusaur
smashed by slash
wins vs rs, loses vs ss
wins
wins
loses
loses
N/A
Whimsicott
whimsi drops
loses
wins, 50/50 vs encore
loses
loses vs band
loses unless marnaga
N/A
Zarude
dropped by double stab
wins vs rs, loses to ss
wins
wins
wins 100% as bu, raw cc loses to ron
loses unless av
N/A
Centiskorch
dropped by slash/can't kill back
loses
wins
wins
wins
loses
N/A
Corviknight
50/50 vs scarf and loses vs twave/np usually, overall unreliable
loses
loses
wins
wins vs non-rock tomb lax
loses
2 MU
Ferrothorn
drops to fire move/55% vs non fire move
loses
wins
wins
wins?
wins
N/A
Gengar
55%
wins if gleam
wins unless vs av
wins
loses vs band
wins
N/A
Incineroar
p ass odds
loses
loses
wins
loses vs ron uless incin is setup
loses unless av
N/A
Scizor
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 291-346 (92.3 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
loses
wins
wins
setguess/set reliant
wins
3.5 MUs
Scyther
slash drops
wins
wins
wins
loses
wins
N/A
Silvally
X
X
X
X
X
X
lol
Steelix
should win
loses
loses
suspect vs non-band
loses
wins
1.5 MUs
Alright, where does that leave us? Leaves us here:
Togekiss has 6 reliable counters
Togekiss has 7 unreliable counters
Togekiss has 6 MUs that come down to one flinch (approx 57%)
Here are notes on those 18 MUs for clarity.
Unless ur opponent is running Yache this is just won by crashing, Yache has never been seen and I doubt it ever will be considering Darm-G is declining in usage. Ok so this isn't technically 100% reliable and here's why:
Zera Plasma Fists on Toge, dropping it
Zera Plasma Fists on Toge, Toge activates Wacan and kills back w/ Counter
Zera knocks/sets up on Toge, Toge Counters leaving it as a fish out of water and will soon die to Plasma Fists Zera knocks/sets up on Toge, Toge Tricks winning through PP stall/chipping as Zera is now locked into a move that does v little to nothing
Wacan is becoming popular so this MU is super tricky but I will say I see Zera winning this a vast majority of the time. Arc p safely spams espeed, however you have to be wary of Counter. Arc can def lose this if outplayed/bad para turns. Click tbolt lol Zone can technically be dropped by two Slashes into Fblast but that's neither a common set nor very likely. Click Flash incase of Wacan. Non-Scarf PZ gets outsped and flinched by slash but why i marked this is unreliable is due to the fact that Toge can easily bulk a beam and threaten w/ Maranga/Specs. Won't be able to deal w/ Amnesia nor Maranga, Yawn may not even help considering bad para rolls. Can get para'd and now that Toge is faster (and presumably at +1 from maranga) it can roost effectively screwing over Ice Beam Damage. Toge can eventually go for flinches. If Kyurem is Glaciate Toge can still play for flinches/Amnesia up. When para'd, this MU is suddenly much scarier. Amnesia/Repeated paraflinches is just gonna murk you. If not physical, super shit chances vs Maranga/Amnesia. After recoil, specs tanks and kills back/bulky counter variant. Drops to a specs Grass Knot
All the weighted coinflip MUs are p self-explanatory, Toge wins w/ one flinch and loses w/o a flinch.
idk why the spoiler spilt like that but c'est la vie
Ok now that we have some numbers I want to talk about what plagues the SS meta the most at the moment, Togekiss. Togekiss is really unhealthy and should be suspected
I'm first gonna layout why I belive primarily why Toge poses an issue.
Toge has an outrageous amount of sets that make it require an unhealthy amount of attention in the builder. For reference they are: (fast or bulky) Amnesia Charm
Serene's Grace+STAB Air Slash makes many would-be counters no long consistent enough to be able to justify running them as a solo check, additionally many of these would-be counters can also be tech'd by weakness berries/Charm/Amnesia variants albeit that nasty weighted coin flip is usually more than enough to dissuade running checks such as Avalugg or Crustle.
Toge even w/o Serene's Grace is still an excellent mon that beats a majority of the meta. Toge has an excellent typing, both offensively and defensively. In addition to a extremely diverse movepool that give Toge a ton of options and a lovely stat distribution making Toge both incredibly bulky and decently fast/strong. 85/95/115 is incredibly nice notably allowing you to live hits from PZ, Kyurem, and Sylveon. While I think people overstate how important it actually is, Serene's Grace is what pushes Toge over the edge from an incredibly potent threat to overbearing.
Lip service only goes so far, lets look at policy.
IV.) Probability management is a part of the game.
This means we have to accept that moves have secondary effects, that moves can miss, that moves can critical hit, and that managing all these potential probability points is a part of skill.
This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO moves, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much", and we removed them.
"Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what they do.
Is Togekiss "too much?" To me, yes. Player skill in 1v1 comes down to a few factors: Teambuilding, picking, and metagame knowledge. Metagame knowledge really just helps out the other two, however, you're gonna have a rough time saying the effect of metagame knowledge is mitigated by Toge so I want to focus on the other two factors of player skill.
Teambuilding becomes much more streamlined w/ Toge in the tier. It centralizes the tier around itself and requires an undue amount of attention. This leads to teams looking super-samesy and overall kills a lot of creativity. Players being generally being restricted to being less expressive and cuts out a large part of player skill.
Let me give an example of how "the more skilled player" is put at a disadvantage unfairly versus "a less skilled player." Preview is Player 1-Prim/Crustle/Silvally- vs Player 2-Togekiss/Arcanine/Rillaboom. Player 1 correctly assesses that Player 2 is unaware that Silvally can potentially beat Toge w/ the possibility of Silvally-Steel. Unable to bluff Player 2 due to Player 2's lack of metagame knowledge, Player 1 bites the bullet and picks Crustle. Player 2 blindly clicks Toge assuming he has a 3-0. Preview is Crustle vs Toge. Player 2 wins the coinflip and thus the match. It could be argued that Player 1 should not rely on a bluff/coinflip as his Toge check however to me this links back to Toge lessening the impact of building by restricting options.
In conclusion, I seriously believe Toge should be looked at for a suspect. It has an overall incredibly negative impact on the tier reducing options and doesn't effectively reward player skill. I plan to respond to w/e post is made in response in this, if you ever want to talk I'm also on discord. Have nice day.
I haven't contributed in a while so I'm just gonna give my opinions on what other people have said before I dip until Crown Tundra releases
Assault Vest- 100% agree with dogknees people just slap AV on everything even when AV can be bad on certain mons in retrospect. AV is always a risk since there's no way for you to stop your opponent from setting up and you certainly always lose to stall unless you get lucky. Banning AV is just silly especially with crown tundra coming out.
Top Heavy Meta- Not a lot of people explore the meta til tournament time which makes sense why the meta seems so top-heavy. I would argue that
PZ, Toge, Prim, Urishifu, Lax, and Rillaboom are just "easy" to use. Out of those 6, I would say only Urishifu and Toge are broken and it's not surprising that Urishifu was the #1 used mon in SS in wcup and toge was #2. I think lax is super easy to play around and same with prim as they're pretty easy to counter. Boom is a bit more challenging because of grassy glide priority plus taunt presence but still has some bad mus while PZ IMO is too slow to be considered broken. However, Urishifu just fucks up a lot of the VR, and not knowing which one it is on team preview makes it suppering annoying to play against. Good movesets/auto crit moves on both make Urishifu a top tier threat. Plus, I looked at zio vr and it can realistically beat every single mon on that dependent on the set except maybe scyther.
Togekiss Suspect- I would rather have a Serene Grace suspect than a Togekiss suspect based on the tier policy framework. First of all, Serene Grace is probably the most uncompetitive/brainless ability in the 1v1 format. The uncompetitive aspect and the broken aspect just go together hand in hand. A player could pick their Rotom (which should be an auto win) into a toge and still lose because of Air Slash fishing. An example of outplaying someone and still losing would be picking a stall mon into a choice trick Toge. They don't trick you t1 so you should realistically win, but you can't get your Amenisa/Rest off so you end up losing because of 60% flinch. I consider toge the ultimate bail me out mon and if you want better tournament games, I suggest suspecting Serene Grace as I feel it's very similar to Baton Pass in the whole cheesing aspect, especially the bulky twave air slash set.
The reason I don't think it should be banned itself because I don't think it's as unpredictable or have as good as stats like Jirachi and I think Crown Tundra will add a lot new threats to hopefully scare it off. Toge IMO really only has 3 sets that are good which are scarf, berry counter/stall, and twave roost. I also think the whole multiple berry sets isn't necessarily a good reason to ban togekiss itself is because you can litterally make berry sets for any mon. SS is dominated by ressitance berries which is why think some people may feel why the meta is stale A proposed ban to toge is a bad idea and I thought same way about Cinderace where Libero should of been banned instead because it was literally fine without it. Banning Serene Grace would give a lot of players a breath of fresh air and would definalty make toge feel less broken.
Togekiss Suspect- I would rather have a Serene Grace suspect than a Togekiss suspect based on the tier policy framework. First of all, Serene Grace is probably the most uncompetitive/brainless ability in the 1v1 format. The uncompetitive aspect and the broken aspect just go together hand in hand. A player could pick their Rotom (which should be an auto win) into a toge and still lose because of Air Slash fishing. An example of outplaying someone and still losing would be picking a stall mon into a choice trick Toge. They don't trick you t1 so you should realistically win, but you can't get your Amenisa/Rest off so you end up losing because of 60% flinch. I consider toge the ultimate bail me out mon and if you want better tournament games, I suggest suspecting Serene Grace as I feel it's very similar to Baton Pass in the whole cheesing aspect, especially the bulky twave air slash set.
The reason I don't think it should be banned itself because I don't think it's as unpredictable or have as good as stats like Jirachi and I think Crown Tundra will add a lot new threats to hopefully scare it off. Toge IMO really only has 3 sets that are good which are scarf, berry counter/stall, and twave roost. I also think the whole multiple berry sets isn't necessarily a good reason to ban togekiss itself is because you can litterally make berry sets for any mon. SS is dominated by ressitance berries which is why think some people may feel why the meta is stale A proposed ban to toge is a bad idea and I thought same way about Cinderace where Libero should of been banned instead because it was literally fine without it. Banning Serene Grace would give a lot of players a breath of fresh air and would definalty make toge feel less broken.
I'm strongly of the belief that suspecting Serene Grace over Togekiss is NOT the way to go here.
The banning of abilities has no precedent in 1v1, and barely in OU (Shadow Tag/Arena Trap being an exception, due to the effect they have against the entire nature of switching).
Edit: (Sand Veil and Snow Cloak technically got banned in gen 5, but that was through an evasion clause)
The main mythical pokemon that have been banned over the years because of serene grace were Shaymin-Sky and Jirachi, and admittedly they wouldn't be as great without their ability, the possibility of banning serene grace wasn't realistic since Serene Grace was their only ability.
Banning the ability before the pokemon itself creates an unhealthy precedent... yadayadayada.
The point is, banning the ability over it's mainly single abuser isn't something that we should hold onto, and cripples the viability of other pokemon as well. (In this case, being Chansey, Blissey and Dunsparce).
An example where we've applied this in the past was with Cinderace, where the gain of Libero was essentially the only thing that brought it over the edge, but banning Libero would imply that the other pokemon that had access to libero where also too strong with it, or if the ability itself was considered uncompetitive.
The only reason a Serene Grace suspect/ban should be considered is if it was considered to be broken and/or uncompetitive with other users of the ability.
tldr:
Togekiss suspect>Serene Grace Suspect
(Not that I necessarely want a suspect, since Crown Tundra is like, right around the corner (At least I hope) )
Not gonna touch much on AV, the AV ban to me follows v little reason. Nothing of real substance was brought as a reason as to ban AV, while it does generally make special attackers a bit weaker things being able to run AV is nothing new and it has never really warranted worry as even more niche AV users (Kyurem, Haxorous, etc.) become common knowledge w/ due time. AV too me isn't so distinctly different from other items, it gives a fairly notable boost for a downside. This argument just falls flat of establishing any reason AV may be unhealthy rather than a vague threat at council.
Gonna clarify that I established the top dogs for the sake of argument. Those 6 are way better & more splashable than anything below them, I would say by a sizable margin. The point I was trying to establish is that Toge deals w/ a disproportionate amount of those 5 pretty damn consistently as opposed to the other 5 which have either extreme difficulty w/ a few others or there is not a feasible way they can cover all 5 at once. If you were to ask me to list the biggest pains in the asses in the builder rn it would say #1 Toge #2 Urshi. I however don't agree that Urshi is a banworthy issue. Saying it can "cover everything bar Scyther" is a gross overestimation of how much you can run at once. The same can be said for Toge and possibly other incredibly diverse mons as Zera and Lax. I just feel that to truly cover everything you need incredibly specialized sets and the point that Toge really only has 3 non-lure sets is actually a point for it in my book. Urshi has to spread its MUs across several berries and items so it's not able to cover nearly as much ground at once. However, I will agree Urshi is quite insane in the meta atm, it's absurdly diverse but unlike Toge there isn't a factor of uncertainty. It's MUs are incredibly cut and dry depending on sets unlike Toge being able to finess losing MUs w/ a bit of luck. To me Urshi has reasonable 4MSS that holds it back from being broken in my mind.
Also addressing a Serene Grace ban over a Toge ban. Serene Grace isn't inherently busted so as M24 said it won't be considered for a ban. You have to consider what else uses it, Blissey is usable and benefits from Serene Grace w/o being even slightly uncompetitive. As long as there is some sort of strategy to preserve it's not worth banning the ability, banning Cinderace>Libero to preserve Raboot's niche is precedent. This PR thread explains it better than I can.
Few quick things to wrap this up. A suspect is worth our time considering as Tundra is still 2.5 months away. I agree w/ freeing Necro for Tundra however to me Cinder is sketchy, time will tell ig. Peace.
This thing is bulky as hell and Steel/Flying is quite a ridiculous typing as most know. You forgot to mention Sub Seed and while 61 is quite an odd speed tier for it I think it's def worth mentioning. 
I really doubt Registeel will be suspect worthy. While resist berry Counter seems kinda scary for mitigating its weaknesses idrc that does enough to make it banworthy. Fires will always send this thing to the mon and special attackers w/ super-effective stab will likely blow past the berries. A lot of returning mons make this thing's life hell such as Garchomp, Blace, Lando-I, and Heatran. Don't interpret this the wrong way, Registeel is going to be insanely good but calling it suspect worthy is hella jumping the gun.
This will be fine. It got Eerie Impulse idt it's really ever wanted to be a Pressure staller anyways and Zapdos has a lot of good tools. Typing and stats are just incredibly nice for a bunch of various stuff I can see this being quite decent.
This is worse Rilla, not vise versa. It has a whole 5 more attack than Rilla which means very little. Rilla has High Horsepower (unaffected by Terrian) and Fake Out over Tapu Bulu both of which are quite good in this meta. It's also just as fat (higher HP offsets slightly worse defenses) and faster by 10 points which is nice since you don't have to invest a whole lot in speed because of the natural 85 tier. It'll really be a matter if Fairy typing/stab is any good because as is Rilla is a better Bulu atm.
I love this shit. If I pass you a team and it doesn't have a Tran it is not my team.Dragonite,
Tapu Lele,
Victini,
Tapu Koko,
Kartana,
Zygarde,
Cresselia would all be in contention to get suspected and banned, +/- other mons that I haven't rated correctly
Yeah bulk is gonna be p insane I think this being broken or not relies mostly on how the meta settles after other bans which is prob a sign this thing is kinda nutty. It will prob have a fair amount of counterplay but to me it's really a matter if this thing can tank the important attackers w/o going Complete since most have no reason to put you in Complete unless they literally have to because of choice or smth similar. This should be looked at but to me it's low priority. yeah sure why not, doesn't seem that broken given what's coming back
with mons like Kartana in the tier I can definitely see this one not being that broken
dont even think about unbanning this
no.
game-breaking gimmicks. To not unban under any circumstance.
Monopoke Ditto 
and 
beats 
beats non-
beats 
, 
, and 
beats 
and Yawn. This mon is also excellent at role compression and it can be quite tricky to guess the set as both cover pretty similar ground. It's also excellent Trick bait but even w/o the surprise factor Snorlax is one of the best things in the meta, one may say a sleeper threat.
(fast or bulky) 
Amnesia Charm