Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Shell Smash Torterra

Can run WP Endure on Shell Smash as well if it so chooses.

+2 252+ Atk Overgrow Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 535-631 (102 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The Torterra stays winning.

Edit: Oh yeah it gets Headlong Rush, and Bullet Seed with Loaded Dice is probably worth something.
 
Lumii said:
Shell Smash Torterra

Can run WP Endure on Shell Smash as well if it so chooses.

+2 252+ Atk Overgrow Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 535-631 (102 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The Torterra stays winning.

Edit: Oh yeah it gets Headlong Rush, and Bullet Seed with Loaded Dice is probably worth something.
Click to expand...
En core
 
A couple thoughts on the metagame rn. Imo even with Lax and Ogerpon gone, there are still 3 major issues, being custap, valiant, and drago. All three constrict teambuilding to a very unhealthy degree, and valiant and arguably drago are broken. I'm not going to go fully in depth as to why but if these three things go, the metagame would be so much better. Anyways I've been having some fun with some weird looking sets, figured I'd share them.

:iron-valiant:
Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 148 HP / 248 Def / 40 SpA / 72 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast / Aura Sphere
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Vacuum Wave

This is a set I've really been enjoying. Offensive Valiant got a whole lot better with the addition of Vacuum Wave. With a bit of bulk investment, Valiant can easily 2HKO many strong Pokemon with an attack into Vacuum Wave. It is also of course great for dealing with custap. The EVs are speed for base 80s, bulk for 252 adamant corv brave bird b/c ladder is hell, and the rest in special attack, though of course this can easily be optimized further. You can also run Life Orb to be less conspicuous but the lack of recoil from booster is really nice. Offensive Valiant as a whole hasn't been experimented with too much, and between sets like Spdef Spirit Break, 3 attacks reversal, and this, Valiant is just very overwhelming and versatile, and people have barely scratched the surface of what it can do.

:regidrago:
Regidrago @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dragon's Maw
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Def / 228 SpA / 4 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Hyper Beam
- Dragon Energy

This is actually a set I used in Home meta during PL multiple times, but I'm posting it now because no one can stop me. The main idea is that you can destroy the vast majority of Meowscaradas and Iron Treads with Hyper Beam and Earth Power respectively. The EVs were for CB Play Rough from Meowscarada, Specs Moth, and a bit of speed creep b/c I can. The only ways Meowscarada can beat this set is if it randomly subs, which is always a throw if it has Charm or Play Rough. AV rn is boring but also works wonders with Scale Shot. I've been enjoying fast AV specifically but most things work wonders.

:baxcalibur:
Tbh I've been refining the set for a while and haven't come to a set EV spread, but LO seems to be the way to go. Loaded Dice is also still very solid, but with Cornerstone gone, I find that Life Orb is a bit more consistant. Glaive Rush/Icicle Crash/Icicle Spear/Scale Shot into Ice Shard just KOes too many great mons. Highly recommend if you're tired of spamming Regidrago

:ogerpon:
Trick immunity is amazing, and with Cornerstone gone, the other two masked forms have a lot of room to innovate. I've mainly been using an offensive Water one but you can't go wrong with most sets. Definitely not as broken as Cornerstone, and most likely won't ever be broken in general, but just very solid mons that have a lot of room to grow

I might do another one of these once I use more mons. In particular I haven't even touched some big mons like Manaphy and Blood Moon yet, if you have any fun/cool/good sets for them hit me up, have a good day, and please ban custap its so dumb
 
been playing around with a weakness policy Moltres-G set that honestly works really well (since apparently people only care abt AV).

Moltres-Galar @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Berserk
Shiny: No
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 52 SpA / 148 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Wrath
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball
- Taunt

EVs: Very reliable bulk. The calcs are here and the bulk and SpA is just really good across the board. It doesn't really need to outspeed anything so no speed investment is required. Honestly surprised I haven't seen this, it's super consistent and both Fiery Wrath and Air Slash have a flinch chance, so even if you're in a losing matchup against a slower offensive mon, say, a Bloodmoon, you still have a chance of winning. Fiery Wrath + Air Slash + Shadow Ball give really good coverage, plus Taunt for CM Cresselia and other stall lords.

Banded Lando-T: 252 Atk Choice Band Landorus-Therian Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 272-322 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Encore/Disable Valiant: 0 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Moltres-Galar: 176-210 (45.8 - 54.6%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 52+ SpA Moltres-Galar Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 564-666 (160.6 - 189.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (even with a low roll not triggering Berserk, still OHKOs)

Specs Valiant: 252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Moltres-Galar: 320-380 (83.3 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 52+ SpA Moltres-Galar Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 704-830 (243.5 - 287.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

204 Atk Iron Valiant Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 324-382 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(I'm gonna ignore band because I haven't seen anyone running Banded Valiant in 1v1 like ever but yeah it beats this set like 80% of the time but just like use volcanion or smth)

32+ Atk Annihilape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 113-133 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 7.7% chance to 3HKO
52+ SpA Moltres-Galar Air Slash vs. 240 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Annihilape: 116-140 (27.5 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (in Moltres' favor since Gunk Shot is inaccurate and is just about as strong as Air Slash, but Ape is faster so idk)

252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Moltres-Galar: 254-302 (66.1 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 52+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 270-318 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (Not great, but it's decent considering it's one of the strongest special attackers that's legal in the format)

252+ Atk Normal Gem Sneasler Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 64-76 (16.6 - 19.7%)
252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 220-261 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
52+ SpA Moltres-Galar Air Slash vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Sneasler: 338-398 (112.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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People. It has happened.
The big 1K. I am super happy that this has happened to me. This feels just... surreal. Some dude who joined a community a year ago gotten feedback incredibly quickly. Thank you all for this moment. But soon, I will be gone. And I will return a stronger man. Bigger. And better
 

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heya its DOUG

To begin, I think it's worth looking at establishing a wider trend of what custap does to a mf then break down to more specific examples. It should be no surprise that wherever custap is present, random protect and endure follow as a means of countering the strategy. However, random protect is more prevalent in SV than other gens mainly because of how UNCOMPETETIVE custap can make mus, in builder and play, essentially boiling down MUs to does he have custap and predict my protect ggs. Brings me to my next point, ANYTHING can pull up with custap and win shit. It makes MUs hella cloudy, and with custap's splashability, it teeter on the edge of being healthy for the metagame. In building, many teams have to run random protect to consistently beat the custap users, and accept some mus might just be straight up 50/50s simply because your opp brought the berry.

For more specific examples, see dirge, sylv and manaphy. ALL very good mons in their own right, but custap takes their asses to the next fucking level. The opportunity cost for sacrificing an item and a move slot for endure is well worth it in this economy for OBVOIOUS reasons. ALSO, more underground shit like custap azu, zapdos, urshifu, donphan, magnezone and MORe become inshane simply with the extra turn, turning normally winning mus into 50/50s of protecting on the endure.

I look to seek immediate action with a BAN of custap, particularly one of the quick variety,

gn
 
A Welcome Guest said:
Not sure what Shadow Ball is for, seems quite redundant especially with dark stab; you could run nasty plot or something else instead.
Click to expand...
ig you could run roost, but shadow ball is useful in a ton of matchups like encore/disable valiant, or anything that has potential to shut down one or both of its stabs, since most things that resist dark and/or flying are neutral or weak to ghost. also it gets like no other good attacking moves so yeah
 
excitedly ava said:
ig you could run roost, but shadow ball is useful in a ton of matchups like encore/disable valiant, or anything that has potential to shut down one or both of its stabs, since most things that resist dark and/or flying are neutral or weak to ghost. also it gets like no other good attacking moves so yeah
Click to expand...
imo hurricane is much better if you want to run 3 attacks, it still beats encore+disable valiant albeit less reliably, but shadow ball doesn't really hit any other target. The only ones I found where shadow ball is the best click are diancie, klefki and tinkaton and you still lose to all of them:
+3 52 SpA Moltres-Galar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Diancie: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 222-264 (57.8 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1960915533
252+ Atk Tinkaton Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 230-272 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 52 SpA Moltres-Galar Shadow Ball vs. 176 HP / 80 SpD Tinkaton: 135-159 (38 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And Hurricane does more damage than shadow ball to even resisted targets anyway. Hurricane helps in a lot of matchups like scarf meowscarada and overall having strong stab option on a pokemon that wants to take a hit and ohko in return is really nice, plus with 30% confusion chance you can try to hax in a losing game.
Also your ev spread is not optimal, your nature should always raise the highest stat. Here's how you can get 24 extra evs and still hit your benchmarks:
Moltres-Galar
Ability: Berserk
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Def / 172 SpA / 32 SpD
Calm Nature
Here's guide on eving if you want to learn more: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Snxhe13qfZFqn_kO8eUG3BMwwfmVGRSNGuFpPqkjFDQ/edit?usp=sharing
 
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mrextrazy said:
imo hurricane is much better if you want to run 3 attacks, it still beats encore+disable valiant albeit less reliably, but shadow ball doesn't really hit any other target. The only ones I found where shadow ball is the best click are diancie, klefki and tinkaton and you still lose to all of them:
+3 52 SpA Moltres-Galar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Diancie: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 222-264 (57.8 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1960915533
252+ Atk Tinkaton Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 230-272 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 52 SpA Moltres-Galar Shadow Ball vs. 176 HP / 80 SpD Tinkaton: 135-159 (38 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And Hurricane does more damage than shadow ball to even resisted targets anyway. Hurricane helps in a lot of matchups like scarf meowscarada and overall having strong stab option on a pokemon that wants to take a hit and ohko in return is really nice, plus with 30% confusion chance you can try to hax in a losing game.
Also your ev spread is not optimal, your nature should always raise the highest stat. Here's how you can get 24 extra evs and still hit your benchmarks:
Moltres-Galar
Ability: Berserk
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Def / 172 SpA / 32 SpD
Calm Nature
Here's guide on eving if you want to learn more: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Snxhe13qfZFqn_kO8eUG3BMwwfmVGRSNGuFpPqkjFDQ/edit?usp=sharing
Click to expand...
did i just get out-set built on my own set

but seriously, i usually just prefer shadow ball since hurricane is inaccurate. ofc the confusion chance is nice but imo the flinch chance on air slash is superior, and the fallback utility of shadow ball is imo more useful than gambling on a 70% hit with hurricane in most scenarios i'm in. ig it kinda comes down to preference since ofc tinkaton, klefki, and diancie all have their own counters (corv/skeledirge). or if you really want double stab but dont want hurricane you could use dark pulse as well but idk how i feel abt that. i've also been thinking about potentially running agility over sb but i havent gotten around to it.

(also thanks for making the evs better idk how to ev things)
 
Opchurtle100 said:
heya its DOUG

To begin, I think it's worth looking at establishing a wider trend of what custap does to a mf then break down to more specific examples. It should be no surprise that wherever custap is present, random protect and endure follow as a means of countering the strategy. However, random protect is more prevalent in SV than other gens mainly because of how UNCOMPETETIVE custap can make mus, in builder and play, essentially boiling down MUs to does he have custap and predict my protect ggs. Brings me to my next point, ANYTHING can pull up with custap and win shit. It makes MUs hella cloudy, and with custap's splashability, it teeter on the edge of being healthy for the metagame. In building, many teams have to run random protect to consistently beat the custap users, and accept some mus might just be straight up 50/50s simply because your opp brought the berry.

For more specific examples, see dirge, sylv and manaphy. ALL very good mons in their own right, but custap takes their asses to the next fucking level. The opportunity cost for sacrificing an item and a move slot for endure is well worth it in this economy for OBVOIOUS reasons. ALSO, more underground shit like custap azu, zapdos, urshifu, donphan, magnezone and MORe become inshane simply with the extra turn, turning normally winning mus into 50/50s of protecting on the endure.

I look to seek immediate action with a BAN of custap, particularly one of the quick variety,
Click to expand...

Honestly, this custap fear mongering in SV is insane. People are justifying losing picks and plays by just saying they lost to Custap. I'm focusing on SV and not on any other generation since what the item brings is different every generation. First, the replays that were posted does not justify anything that was said about custap - Sylveon loses to fenzadipity anyways , and Empoleon can achieve the same result with Chople Berry, which also beats Band Ape and Valiant. If any concrete evidence is needed on Custap Berry, better replays should be used.

Custap Berry in SV isn't uncompetitive due to the nature of Pokemon in it as of now and how games are being played (Prevalence of Encore Disable, Leech Seed, Trick, Offensive and Bulky threats - Ursas, Ogerpon). Both Skeledirge and Sylveon are the top choices for Custap while other mons not so much - a lot of Pokemon would rather run any other item than Custap at this point in the meta and its cheese potential is minimal. Skeledirge still loses to Wake, Mana, Garchomp, Drago etc custap or not, Sylveon still loses to Corviknight, Fezandipity, Empoleon etc custap or not. If a Pokemon really want to cheese a check, a resist berry is much more effective in the current metagame than Custap Berry. Also no, Custap Berry doesn't push Dirge, Sylv, and Mana to the extreme - and specially dirge isn't a very good Pokemon without Custap. Manaphy other sets are more busted than Custap, and Sylveon is just pretty good and works better with LO or other items.

There's also dominance of protect and other moves such as Substitute with or without Custap so no one is forcibly being forced to run Protect. Also it's no way more prevalent in SV than it is in SS or BW (We shouldn't compare anyway since Custap is different in every gen). Custap in SV is more of a skill issue than it is unhealthy - use better checks - don't count on questionable checks in the builder then blame Custap Berry, and don't midground pick in previews then blame Custap Berry. If you think Custap makes Manaphy overbearing then it should be suspected, cause there's no way Custap Berry on Skeledirge is close to broken or unhealthy.

What are we blaming next, Choice Scarf cause you didn't know this specific Pokemon can outspeed and KO? That's surely unhealthy.
 
:custap-berry: Alright I see a bit of a discussion about Custap Berry here, I’m going to post my thoughts here too. :custap-berry:​

Custap Berry is unhealthy, not broken. Let's get this out of the way. I’ve seen people on both sides of the argument talking like it is, but it isn’t. There are a good number of ways to guaranteed counteract Custap. Protection moves are the big one, along with Priority. You can also run Unnerve, or if the matchup allows you to, you can always Knock Off. There is also outplaying Custap when your opponent endures, either by using a weaker move to not put it down into Custap range, or by using a status move. This is different from the other big example people often bring up, being Choice Scarf. Yes, a Choice Scarf Pokemon can “randomly” outspeed you, but you can also take advantage of their lack of power and just tank the hit. You often do not need to run an extra move like Protect to beat Choice Scarf Pokemon, and there is very little in game 50/50s (the main example here being Cresselia). However this isn’t a Choice Scarf discussion. Every Pokemon can counter Custap Berry well, however, this does not mean it is a healthy part of the metagame.

Custap Berry restricts teambuilding in an uniquely unhealthy way. While almost every single Pokemon has access to Custap Berry counterplay, that does not mean that every Pokemon wants to fit it on their set. Very few Pokemon like running Protect for instance; only certain Encore Disable Pokemon like Valiant and Gardevoir, Pressure Stallers like Corviknight, or Leech Seeders like Meowscarada really want to. Priority can be run on Pokemon like Ursaluna-Bloodmoon and Arcanine to pick off weakened opponents, but many Pokemon like Sylveon and Darkrai have to use moves like Quick Attack or a protection move, which the vast majority of the time, does nothing outside of the Custap matchup. Custap Berry also makes Choice items so much worse. The only Pokemon in my opinion that can viably run Choice items right now are Haxorus (Unnerve), Regidrago (bulky enough to beat a lot of Custap Pokemon naturally), and Cresselia (Trick). There are a lot of Pokemon that can run Choice items like Meowscarada and Spectrier, but losing so hard to the common Custap Berry just sucks. Building with Custap Berry in the meta just feels awful. It feels like most Pokemon only have three moveslots. Removing Custap Berry from the metagame would allow for much more skill expression in building.

Custap Berry creates uncomfortable 50/50s. So let's say you decided to not run Protect or a Priority move. Now you get to deal with the awkward Custap 50/50s. Against bulky Pokemon like Sylveon and Skeledirge, you often cannot 2HKO them. You do 60%, they attack back, and now you have to make a choice. Will they Endure and proc their Custap, or will they predict you trying to outplay your Custap and just attack. Do they even have Custap? At the surface, it seems like a pure 50/50. However, if two skilled players are in this position, they will almost always go for the Endure. This forces a double Endure, meaning you can predict correctly and still lose one third of the time. As anyone who has laddered not just SV 1v1, but SS as well, you know how often these 50/50s come up, and they’re just not an enjoyable or positive part of the game. Unless you make your Pokemon worse just to counter Custap, or you happen to be running one of the few Pokemon that naturally counter Custap, you are forced into this position. You are forced to make a blind guess, to flip a coin. This is not something people should be forced to do in a competitive tier.

I hope I made my point clear, that Custap Berry is a massively unhealthy part of the metagame, for both teambuilding and playing. Most people that I’ve talked to have been in favor of at the very least a suspect test, if not a quick ban, and I would be down for either. Thank you for reading, feel free to ask me any questions, goodbye.
 
Opchurtle100 said:
heya its DOUG

To begin, I think it's worth looking at establishing a wider trend of what custap does to a mf then break down to more specific examples. It should be no surprise that wherever custap is present, random protect and endure follow as a means of countering the strategy. However, random protect is more prevalent in SV than other gens mainly because of how UNCOMPETETIVE custap can make mus, in builder and play, essentially boiling down MUs to does he have custap and predict my protect ggs. Brings me to my next point, ANYTHING can pull up with custap and win shit. It makes MUs hella cloudy, and with custap's splashability, it teeter on the edge of being healthy for the metagame. In building, many teams have to run random protect to consistently beat the custap users, and accept some mus might just be straight up 50/50s simply because your opp brought the berry.

For more specific examples, see dirge, sylv and manaphy. ALL very good mons in their own right, but custap takes their asses to the next fucking level. The opportunity cost for sacrificing an item and a move slot for endure is well worth it in this economy for OBVOIOUS reasons. ALSO, more underground shit like custap azu, zapdos, urshifu, donphan, magnezone and MORe become inshane simply with the extra turn, turning normally winning mus into 50/50s of protecting on the endure.

I look to seek immediate action with a BAN of custap, particularly one of the quick variety,

gn
Click to expand...
Sorry Opchurtle100 but like true custap is unhealthy but not broken lol . How do you expect an item like custap to get quickbanned , custap can be like countered by a variety of ways like murman said it basically gets shutdown by any leech seed staller that runs protect (spoiler mostly all of them do) . And like how is custap uncompetitive it isnt by any means hax lol . Not anything can run custap and win there are like only a few optimal custap choices which can probably do the job it normally will do if not better without custap . The berry is overrated lol the main custap choices are
Sylveon
skeledirge
manaphy
Empoleon .
sorry if I left out any mons that run custap or if something on this list doesent run custap. Sylveon is better off with like specs or something however custap berry does improves some mus that you normally lose to . for example custap empoleon makes the mu 50/50 where you would lose automaticaly vs landorus-therian and incarnate if you're non custap empoleon.
it still loses to poison types/steel types, some variants of anihialape fire types , Very strong physical attackers , and a few more.If a sylveon runs custap it still loses to all these assuming we are going for the majority of poison, steel and fire types. If you want to improve youre mu against some of these (poison and steel types) you're better off running resist berries . For example custap sylveon vs sneasler,you endure t2 pedicting that they fake out t1 but they dont attack , they substitute now you have to ko with hyper voice (assuming you're bulked to live dire claw but you should guaranteed lose if they are running gunk shot but dire claw is the most popular)
252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 30 SpD Sneasler: 201-237 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
as shown in the spoiler youre down to the mercy of a role AND sylveons dont run 252spatk to my knowledge (please correct me if im wrong) we are giving the best odds to sylv with 252+ spatk but still a role if they run like 30spdef (which I think is uncommon but to me i dont need 252 speed cuz unburden) its an unfavourable role if you run like specs/lo you win 100% of the time if they sub and 90% of the time if they attack (sorry if sneasler is an uncommon example). If they run more spdef you're doomed as a custap sylveon
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 30 SpD Sneasler: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
however ,SOME custap mons can win mus it didn't before without custap for example custap empoleon beats lando (specscincarnate / band therian) which it didnt without custap i typed choice items as the item of the lando bec its 50/50 if they aren't choiced
And Yes , IT DOES CREATE UNCOMFORTABLE 50/50s:
on this topic I completely agree that it does create 50/50s but isn't that just 1v1 imo . It creates awkward moments of predicting to attack or not.This is like a good reason to suspect test it. You don't have to worry about this if you run priority/protect/leech seed or any volatile(burn/toxic)
status condition but not every mon of your team can run priority or status heck on the builder it creates pressure of getting 3-0ed to a single mon just because it may run custap. But custap has one more counterplay than just status,priority and leech seed. It loses to unnerve
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1961796199
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1961800725 sylveon vs sneasler
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1961802108 but it can also go like this
but winning the 50/50 should not count as a counterplay and if you look at it the way opchurtle said "anything can pull up with custap and win shit" and if he wanted to ban custap because of the single point ,that basically makes opchurtle supporting a ban on like choice items/plates/any item that gives a boost to you're stats or moves of a particular type just because we dont know that a mon can okho/outspeed you're mon and if you modify if you modify the point to the items mentioned the point would go "ANYTHING can pull up with a disguised choice item and win vs mons it lost to , so i request the BAN of choice items , particularly the one of the QUICK variety" kek that sounds too bad to my 1v1 brain
CONCLUSION: though i think that custap is unhealthy some mons that run it can do particularly better in some matchups without custap and lose in others because it didn't run custap. Thus, I conclude custap isn't quick ban worthy like gholdengo but is an equally good and counterplayable item.Though I dont support a quick ban I would be ok with a suspect and s/o Call me PK and mrextrazy for the replays. Thanks for reading and sorry if I have offended anyone in the making of this post and I'm a 1v1 beginner so feel free to point out if im wrong with that Arvin out
 
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Custap: A neutral perspective :custap-berry:

Arguments for Banning:

Custap Restricts teambuilding
Common anti-custap strategies such as running LO + Protect > Choice Item. This is unhealthy as it limits choice of items, and takes away a moveslot from things that need Protect to beat Custap sets of certain mons. Another option is running priority, which while less of a burden, still takes up a moveslot often better used otherwise.

Adds Preview Pressure
Very relevant in a tournament setting, Custap adds another layer to set-guessing on preview which can sway a player's decision of what to click.

50/50s
Pretty self-explanatory, creates 50/50s whether a mon will be Endure Custap or not. There's another layer in this in that a mon has been revealed to be Endure Custap and a 50/50 is created between trying to KO the Custap mon and playing to not activate Custap. Overall these 50/50s are skill-based however this argument is warranted as it's favoured at least slightly to the custap user most of the time and these interactions are overall unfun to play.

Anything Can Run It
While there are more prominent custap users such as sylveon and skeledirge, anything can choose to run it and many mons can run it decently for odds at a matchup they usually don't have. See tournament implications for more info.

It "Breaks" Certain Mons
Some Pokemon such as Manaphy and Skeledirge greatly benefit from the presence of custap and some more niche picks like empoleon and magnezone are made a fair amount better by the item. This remains true even if they all have other sets, which are potentially better as it increases set ambiguity and custap often has different counterplay to other sets.

1/3 YOLO Endure
Even if a player loses the 50/50, they can always try to bank on the 1/3 chance that Endure will trigger again. This is essentially impossible to play around for mons put in this situation.

Arguments for Not Banning:

Matchups Given by Custap are Unreliable
In most cases this is true. There is outplay room for things that try to obtain matchups with Custap but often this involves plays that lose to regular sets so is a hard, but rewarding callout to make.

Custap is Outplayable Without Needing Attention in Builder
This is true for the most part however it carries a lot of risk to the point where it's more worth it to not rely on outplaying.

Custap Can Make Winning Matchups Unreliable
This is true, running custap does usually come with some kind of opportunity cost associated, sometimes allowing you to lose matchups you should usually win in exchange for allowing you to win matchups that are usually lost.

If it Breaks a Mon, the Mon Should be Banned
"Ban abusers, not the item itself" is the base of this argument. This is usually the right stance, especially if there isn't an overwhelming theme in the Pokemon' which viably run custap being overpowered.

Certain Mons Still Beat Custap Sets Without Having to Go Out Of Their Way to Do So
This is basically the argument of "run better counters". This point of view is valid as it eliminates a lot of the complications in preparing for custap, but it does show how the item is restricting in the builder.

Common Meta Trends are Good Into Custap
Some common and high-ranked Pokemon such as Iron valiant have direct custap counterplay built into them and there are some Pokemon that like running priority, custap aside.

Tournament Implications:
In prep-heavy tournaments such as Champs, the issues of Custap are brought to the limelight. Every game won is very significant so it greatly rewards lures and 3-0 fishing. While you can easily keep common custap users in mind and reliably beat them, it's when random Pokemon elect to use it that it becomes an issue. Custap is undeniably the easiest and least creative way to flip a matchup on its head and is fairly unpredictable when used on Pokemon which don't usually run it. While a skilled player could possibly call out this random custap, it is not sustainable and will lead to more games lost than won. Ultimately, Custap is the easiest way to tech and has proven problematic in other generations, but the concern for the item is only somewhat warranted given it hasn't met the scrutiny of a real high-prep tournament.

Courses of Action:
A. Suspect of Custap, before Champs so as to not interfere with the tournament.
B. Custap remains, the decision being made and announced before Champs and a suspect taking place afterward if necessary with Champs results in mind.
 
RTM said:
Custap Restricts teambuilding
Common anti-custap strategies such as running LO + Protect > Choice Item. This is unhealthy as it limits choice of items, and takes away a moveslot from things that need Protect to beat Custap sets of certain mons. Another option is running priority, which while less of a burden, still takes up a moveslot often better used otherwise.
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Doesn't this mean that custap can also make teambuilding easier by adding more options? Also no examples here so I have no idea what mon is running LO Protect. Priority wise, I've seen Valiant run Vacuum Wave for things like scarf Darkrai and Meowscarada, so it definitely isn't wasting a moveslot, meanwhile you almost always have to run endure on custap sets.
RTM said:
Overall these 50/50s are skill-based however this argument is warranted as it's favored at least slightly to the custap user most of the time
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Ah yes, the 60-40. I do understand what you mean, however this implies (along with the rest of your post) that it is always advantageous to use custap on every mon. Unfortunately, in the current round of Masters, custap has won ZERO games. Custap was used here but it didn't matter. So if this was true that the custap user is favored most of the time, shouldn't most things run custap more? Because it doesn't seem like that at all.
RTM said:
Anything Can Run It
While there are more prominent custap users such as sylveon and skeledirge, anything can choose to run it and many mons can run it decently for odds at a matchup they usually don't have.
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Yeah anything can run it, like every mon running LO or a resist berry, but not all mons want to run custap, like cress, valiant, ninetales-a, etc.
RTM said:
1/3 YOLO Endure
Even if a player loses the 50/50, they can always try to bank on the 1/3 chance that Endure will trigger again. This is essentially impossible to play around for mons put in this situation.
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Isn't the problem Endure here? Although I haven't read the smogone banning thingy rules so idk.
RTM said:
Tournament Implications:
In prep-heavy tournaments such as Champs, the issues of Custap are brought to the limelight. Every game won is very significant so it greatly rewards lures and 3-0 fishing. While you can easily keep common custap users in mind and reliably beat them, it's when random Pokemon elect to use it that it becomes an issue. Custap is undeniably the easiest and least creative way to flip a matchup on its head and is fairly unpredictable when used on Pokemon which don't usually run it. While a skilled player could possibly call out this random custap, it is not sustainable and will lead to more games lost than won. Ultimately, Custap is the easiest way to tech and has proven problematic in other generations, but the concern for the item is only somewhat warranted given it hasn't met the scrutiny of a real high-prep tournament.
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Doesn't this encourage better building? Besides, you build a team around different mons, not custap, so I fail to see how building teams that aren't 3-0d by custap mons not building better.

TL;DR Speculation isn't proof, imo wait until Masters is over to see whether custap gets these super cheese wins or whatever, then take action before Champs.

fraud tom numbas out
 
Tom1535 said:
Doesn't this mean that custap can also make teambuilding easier by adding more options?
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While Custap provides new sets to run, I wouldn't say it makes teambuilding easier; at least good teambuilding, as it leaves your custap mon vulnerable to losing to the things it's intended to beat, whereas custap proofing does the opposite and makes you less vulnerable while being restricting.

Tom1535 said:
Also no examples here so I have no idea what mon is running LO Protect. Priority wise, I've seen Valiant run Vacuum Wave for things like scarf Darkrai and Meowscarada, so it definitely isn't wasting a moveslot, meanwhile you almost always have to run endure on custap sets.
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I'll use landorus incarnate as an example here. Obviously, it'd like to run specs for the extra power, but that sacrifices the skeledirge matchup which is significant so it runs life orb with protect. I did touch on priority moves not being as much of a burden. Endure taking up a slot isn't a good argument against it as it is necessary for the strategy to function properly and certainly isn't dead weight or better used elsewhere like protect.

Tom1535 said:
Ah yes, the 60-40. I do understand what you mean, however this implies (along with the rest of your post) that it is always advantageous to use custap on every mon.
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The Custap user is always favoured as even if they get the endure turn wrong, they can bank on the 1/3 chance without any issues. My post outlines reasons it should be banned and reasons it shouldn't be, did you not read the second half. Anyway, see: "Matchups Given by Custap are Unreliable", "Custap Can Make Winning Matchups Unreliable", "Common Meta Trends are Good Into Custap". Custap will obviously not be run viably on everything, but that's in the same way that not everything can run a stall set, or not everything can run a specs set. This argument is irrelevant.

Tom1535 said:
Unfortunately, in the current round of Masters, custap has won ZERO games. Custap was used here but it didn't matter. So if this was true that the custap user is favored most of the time, shouldn't most things run custap more? Because it doesn't seem like that at all.
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This is irrelevant and selective, it is round 6 of masters. People obviously aren't hard teching opponents.

Tom1535 said:
Yeah anything can run it, like every mon running LO or a resist berry, but not all mons want to run custap, like cress, valiant, ninetales-a, etc.
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Irrelevant, as mentioned before when you said the same thing earlier.

Tom1535 said:
Isn't the problem Endure here? Although I haven't read the smogone banning thingy rules so idk.
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The discussion is Custap and not Endure for a reason. Endure enables other pinch berry strategies to be used, ones that for the most part don't aim to flip a matchup, but enhance a mons tools and allow for strong use of these.

Tom1535 said:
Doesn't this encourage better building? Besides, you build a team around different mons, not custap, so I fail to see how building teams that aren't 3-0d by custap mons not building better.
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You cannot hard counter random custap is what you fail to realise. Especially in tournaments like this where players will be cteaming and matchup fishing fairly hard, which are known for decreasing how solid teams are overall. If you're idea of building better is running 3 mons with protect or priority, then you'd be correct, but it is impossible to prepare for custap on random mons. As someone who has no strong opinion on custap, these "l2p" arguments are by far the worst as they mention building/playing "better" which is just such a weak argument, given it's used as the basis of pro-Custap advocate's arguments.

Don't selectively argue with a post that supports both points of view, it's a waste of time.
 
Tom1535 said:
Doesn't this mean that custap can also make teambuilding easier by adding more options? Also no examples here so I have no idea what mon is running LO Protect. Priority wise, I've seen Valiant run Vacuum Wave for things like scarf Darkrai and Meowscarada, so it definitely isn't wasting a moveslot, meanwhile you almost always have to run endure on custap sets.
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252+ SpA Quark Drive Iron Valiant Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 192-228 (68.3 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Quark Drive Iron Valiant Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 236-278 (80.5 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vacuum wave val literally exists for custap users primarily lmao. even then u have to setguess both of these and just lose to offensive variants anyways besides scarf. unless ur running obese special attack booster val i dont see the reasoning for it beating meow (which is bad now) and darkrai (losing to all sets but scarf which u have to bulk psychic from anyways). val is also notoriously not ambiguous so this doesnt help it either.

the only real "custap proof" mon if u wanna call it that is val rn and sometimes oger (defining custap-proof as standard moveset containing tect/more mons could be but i dont feel like making the full distinction currently). meow is a non factor and has seen little to no usage so i wouldnt be using it to argue anything abt top mons beating custap. i don't have any big thoughts about custap atm, but it does have slight instances of not favoring the most competitive outcome (mainly 1/3 endure after which is insane cheese and potential throws guessing custap mons since it's not as intuitive to look at on preview). however i haven't seen many issues of it in game and it's definitely something talked about more than actually seen, at least in this gen. like all the replays i've seen surrounding custap have just been standard custap winning a matchup it should/ppl just didnt call out custap mons which makes it easier to call fearmongering since we have no tour series to my knowledge which highlights the grey area. either player could have potentially struggled in the builder, but in series we see these matchups play out just fine. to those who think it's fine, i don't see how one of the most controversial items throughout the tier's history (especially with last gen) wouldn't benefit from a suspect test at least. this is probably the closest it's been to a near 50/50 split in terms of opinions that i've witnessed since hoopa-u was banned so idt anyone would complain seeing it get some type of look at in the near future.
 
RTM said:
I'll use landorus incarnate as an example here. Obviously, it'd like to run specs for the extra power, but that sacrifices the skeledirge matchup which is significant so it runs life orb with protect
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Valiant invalidates choice users not Custap Berry. You'd rather run LO so u don't lose to tect disable Valiant not cause Custap Berry. Banning Custap will not make people run choice as long as Iron Valiant is in the metagame, it has been the case ever since the start of SV.

DripLegend said:
the only real "custap proof" mon if u wanna call it that is val rn and sometimes oger (defining custap-proof as standard moveset containing tect/more mons could be but i dont feel like making the full distinction currently). meow is a non factor and has seen little to no usage so i wouldnt be using it to argue anything abt top mons beating custap
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The custap proof mon is the mon that wins even if the opponent is custap - Wake, Mana, Ttar etc.. vs skeledirge... You don't really have to run protect or priority.
 
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