Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[MattC (Banned)]

Im just going to voice my opinion about this course of action. First of all, there should be a community survey to determine what mons get banned to begin with, or at least a council vote based on otr. I assume that's implied, but it was notably missing from this post.

My main concern is that once we ban these mons, the meta will not support the return of any mons whether or not they would otherwise be balanced. This is because players would not prep for them, and therefore they would not fit easily back into the new post-ban meta. For example, if we banned Meowscarada or Porygon-Z, people would likely no longer run bulk for these threats, and many teams would be 3-0d by them. This would make it difficult to determine whether they should be resuspected.

If we take the more cautious method of only quick banning mons that are clearly banworthy (with community support), and suspecting those that are more controversial, it would certainly take significantly longer as you pointed out. However, this has the advantage of actually seeing the meta with the suspected mon where players adapt to deal with it. This makes it easier to accurately determine whether the mon should be banned.

YES DUDE. If 1v1 had a tiering survey to give our opinions on what should and should not be banned, this tier would be soooo much better off. Maybe the bans wouldn't come directly from the survey but AT LEAST things get acknowledged more. Just think about it: no Iron Valiant. No Regidrago. No Necrozma. Maybe also no Cinderace while your at it. The bans so far were expected and not controversial at all... yet we kept Valiant

My hope for 2024 and SV 1v1 is 2 things:

1) Hopefully I can put up a good showing in PL
2) Things fix themselves. I PRAY somebody finds some meta shaping thing that can help with whatever obscene things we come across. Nothing's too bad as of now, but who knows? A lot can change in a month. We have essentially until November of 2025 to sort out everything before the next gen comes out so... cheers ig

 

[g0ldenboy277]

New here on forum but long time showdown player
Im here to discuss 2 thinks:

1) i really agree that some mons should be banned, i dont know why its not obvious, like, even if we ban 5/6/7/8/9 mons, we still got like 700 xD not that people wouldnt got options...

2) i find today one guy using zapdos with PP ability, agility, substitute, protect and roost, i REALLY think that strategy is 100% antigame, like, ok its not hard to counter, just use something with taunt or disable or encore, ok, but its 100% not fun and this shouldnt be permitted, winning against anyone with 80 rounds just letting they got out of PP is not a strategy, this is not like things with screens, protects and you win with toxic or leech seed or anything, this is just stupid

 

[SwordIsBored]

New here on forum but long time showdown player
Im here to discuss 2 thinks:

1) i really agree that some mons should be banned, i dont know why its not obvious, like, even if we ban 5/6/7/8/9 mons, we still got like 700 xD not that people wouldnt got options...

2) i find today one guy using zapdos with PP ability, agility, substitute, protect and roost, i REALLY think that strategy is 100% antigame, like, ok its not hard to counter, just use something with taunt or disable or encore, ok, but its 100% not fun and this shouldnt be permitted, winning against anyone with 80 rounds just letting they got out of PP is not a strategy, this is not like things with screens, protects and you win with toxic or leech seed or anything, this is just stupid

A lot of these strategies with Zapdos PP stall, toxic and leech seed that you speak of are easily countered with the moves Encore and Taunt as well as Pokemon which just hit generally hard. I’m going to assume that whatever teams you use just end up being 3-0ed by these sets. I’d recommend you give Skeledirge a try, it should be able to naturally break through these strategies with Torch Song going through Substitute and naturally boosting its Special Aftack as well as a powerful Blaze Blast Burn which can be given priority with Custap Berry and Encore.

 

[g0ldenboy277]

A lot of these strategies with Zapdos PP stall, toxic and leech seed that you speak of are easily countered with the moves Encore and Taunt as well as Pokemon which just hit generally hard. I’m going to assume that whatever teams you use just end up being 3-0ed by these sets. I’d recommend you give Skeledirge a try, it should be able to naturally break through these strategies with Torch Song going through Substitute and naturally boosting its Special Aftack as well as a powerful Blaze Blast Burn which can be given priority with Custap Berry and Encore.

yeah man, thx for the answer, i know the counters, i just find that strategy of winning by PP is really anti game, the others with toxic leech seed and etc at least win because the other guy is losing HP against a real move, this strategyis just wait 70 turns and win, that doesnt even make sense

 

[Chrispy Burns]

We should keep track of sets that work across multiple gens in a thread!
(If this exists, here's the twist: we should do a 3-9 challenge with only one edit between each gen.)

Porygon-Z has remained a very consistent build for a decade with ev's changing each gen, hitmonlee, aron, pikachu & more do functionally the same in gen 5 as they do in 9. I think its worth taking a look at what set just keeps working no matter the generational gimmick.

 

[DEG]

This post will respond to the community concerns around the meta via MY OWN opinion.

I will start by saying that I've been enjoying both building and clicking in this meta, it's def the most fun I've had in SV or 1v1 for the past months. It is true that the current teams seem to be the same ish mons however I think it's just the novelty factor playing and we're gonna see more diversity in a bit and as deep as we get in GC. This meta reminds me of ORAS, it is top heavy but it still has room for innovation and new mons, it is also v balanced imo.

Basically how I see it is that we're in a Dragon dominant metagame instead of the usual Fairy dominant that we've been used to, I believe this can create some unease for some builders and players because when Dragons are popular instead, some cores such as FWG gets less and less popular with cores such as DD, DFairyS, DFireFairy... get more and more common. This dragon heavy meta is just caused by our Dragons being really good, and especially the two best dragons Gouging Fire and Archaludon not being afraid of Steels and Fairies like other dragons.

Both Gouging Fire, and Archaludon have been phenomenal and easy to fit on every meta, they possess really great tools when it comes to offensive and defense and can juggle between their EVs and Sets. Both of these dragons are a ton better than Regidrago in the current meta, and people should acknowledge that. Gouging Fire and Archaludon nail better MUs on preview and can be built around easily due to their flexibility and great chemistry with a lot of Pokemon also their checks are not always linear (specially Gouging Fire). Meanwhile, the current meta cores really hurt Regidrago from one side, Steels like Corvik, Iron Crown, and Metagross beat it most of the time, Fairies always beat it, vs Dragons it's a toss due to Haban Berry from both sides being probable. Regidrago checks are one linear and you know what beats Regidrago directly from preview + it has to stretch itself and may lose to Pokemon like Cresselia, and PZ. Don't get me wrong, Regidrago is a good Pokemon as it can beat Pokemon like Ursaluna or Iron Hands that may annoy other Dragons but imo it's not the unhealthy Pokemon it was before, def. not in the current meta.

On topic with the Dragon metagame, these there's still Raging Bolt, Haxorus, and Dragapult that are actually good and have niches which is honestly great to see, competition exists around dragons on the team and def. not one linear. IMO no Dragons are currently broken or unhealthy I'd love to see more from this meta before judging anything.

Hoopa-U seems like an annoying Pokemon honestly but it's held back by Dragon-types like Regidrago and Gouging. It is a v good Pokemon with great offensive and defensive capabilities and can beat Fairies, Steels and Psychics, however the annoying part is that it has to actually hit 2 Gunk Shots sometimes to beat a fairy. It's pretty inconsistent but when you feelin' lucky it rarely loses. What holds it back is def the Dragon metagame, and U-turn on unexpected mons (Ogerpon), it also has to stretch itself to beat a lot of stuff which makes it annoying for the player and opponent. I still don't see it as problematic yet.

Custap Berry. lol. I have yet to see any surprise custap user, or anything from that item that would push it into the unhealthy territory. It's a normal item and has been a fine addition. Come on, are you telling me we don't know that Skeledirge, Primarina, and Sylveon are the main 3 that run custap and rarely archaludon. The users of this item are linear as of yet and we know how to beat them and what beat them whether they run custap or any other item. I don't see the hype around this item, all other items are way better unless your name is Skeledirge and Primarina

I'm gonna end this by saying, can we seriously start holding Encore accountable to the bs in our metagame. Ever since Encore has widened its distribution in SS and now SV the metagames have been very volatile and shaky. SS isn't a topic rn but I think we should take action in SV. The main reason people see Valiant, Custap, and other Pokemon such as Snorlax and Dragonite as blatantly unhealthy or broken is because of Encore, imo w/out encore the whole metagame changes to the better. Encore forces you tiptoe your moves, it restricts what you can do in-game and what Pokemon check what Pokemon, I think it's time to SERIOUSLY discuss the unhealthy aspect of encore.

tldr;
DO NOT TOUCH THE META RN, IT'S BALANCED.
Regidrago worse than Gouging and Archa
Hoopa-u not broken
Custap Berry is a fine addition to the metagame, 0 unhealthy aspect as of yet
Serious discussion around Encore should be held.

 

[g0ldenboy277]

This post will respond to the community concerns around the meta via MY OWN opinion.

I will start by saying that I've been enjoying both building and clicking in this meta, it's def the most fun I've had in SV or 1v1 for the past months. It is true that the current teams seem to be the same ish mons however I think it's just the novelty factor playing and we're gonna see more diversity in a bit and as deep as we get in GC. This meta reminds me of ORAS, it is top heavy but it still has room for innovation and new mons, it is also v balanced imo.

Basically how I see it is that we're in a Dragon dominant metagame instead of the usual Fairy dominant that we've been used to, I believe this can create some unease for some builders and players because when Dragons are popular instead, some cores such as FWG gets less and less popular with cores such as DD, DFairyS, DFireFairy... get more and more common. This dragon heavy meta is just caused by our Dragons being really good, and especially the two best dragons Gouging Fire and Archaludon not being afraid of Steels and Fairies like other dragons.

Both Gouging Fire, and Archaludon have been phenomenal and easy to fit on every meta, they possess really great tools when it comes to offensive and defense and can juggle between their EVs and Sets. Both of these dragons are a ton better than Regidrago in the current meta, and people should acknowledge that. Gouging Fire and Archaludon nail better MUs on preview and can be built around easily due to their flexibility and great chemistry with a lot of Pokemon also their checks are not always linear (specially Gouging Fire). Meanwhile, the current meta cores really hurt Regidrago from one side, Steels like Corvik, Iron Crown, and Metagross beat it most of the time, Fairies always beat it, vs Dragons it's a toss due to Haban Berry from both sides being probable. Regidrago checks are one linear and you know what beats Regidrago directly from preview + it has to stretch itself and may lose to Pokemon like Cresselia, and PZ. Don't get me wrong, Regidrago is a good Pokemon as it can beat Pokemon like Ursaluna or Iron Hands that may annoy other Dragons but imo it's not the unhealthy Pokemon it was before, def. not in the current meta.

On topic with the Dragon metagame, these there's still Raging Bolt, Haxorus, and Dragapult that are actually good and have niches which is honestly great to see, competition exists around dragons on the team and def. not one linear. IMO no Dragons are currently broken or unhealthy I'd love to see more from this meta before judging anything.

Hoopa-U seems like an annoying Pokemon honestly but it's held back by Dragon-types like Regidrago and Gouging. It is a v good Pokemon with great offensive and defensive capabilities and can beat Fairies, Steels and Psychics, however the annoying part is that it has to actually hit 2 Gunk Shots sometimes to beat a fairy. It's pretty inconsistent but when you feelin' lucky it rarely loses. What holds it back is def the Dragon metagame, and U-turn on unexpected mons (Ogerpon), it also has to stretch itself to beat a lot of stuff which makes it annoying for the player and opponent. I still don't see it as problematic yet.

Custap Berry. lol. I have yet to see any surprise custap user, or anything from that item that would push it into the unhealthy territory. It's a normal item and has been a fine addition. Come on, are you telling me we don't know that Skeledirge, Primarina, and Sylveon are the main 3 that run custap and rarely archaludon. The users of this item are linear as of yet and we know how to beat them and what beat them whether they run custap or any other item. I don't see the hype around this item, all other items are way better unless your name is Skeledirge and Primarina

I'm gonna end this by saying, can we seriously start holding Encore accountable to the bs in our metagame. Ever since Encore has widened its distribution in SS and now SV the metagames have been very volatile and shaky. SS isn't a topic rn but I think we should take action in SV. The main reason people see Valiant, Custap, and other Pokemon such as Snorlax and Dragonite as blatantly unhealthy or broken is because of Encore, imo w/out encore the whole metagame changes to the better. Encore forces you tiptoe your moves, it restricts what you can do in-game and what Pokemon check what Pokemon, I think it's time to SERIOUSLY discuss the unhealthy aspect of encore.

tldr;
DO NOT TOUCH THE META RN, IT'S BALANCED.
Regidrago worse than Gouging and Archa
Hoopa-u not broken
Custap Berry is a fine addition to the metagame, 0 unhealthy aspect as of yet
Serious discussion around Encore should be held.

i agree 100% with you! even more than 100% about the encore

 

[RTM]

Booster Energy

Booster energy is in essence, a non-binding choice scarf or a damage-less Life Orb. I believe that rather than looking at certain mons that abuse this item, the item should be looked into instead.

Banning it would fully resolve the issues with being unhealthy and help prevent other paradoxes () from emerging as broken. I believe fully that the broken element is booster energy. Banning booster energy would allow pokemon to use choice more freely due to val losing its free scarf and would make gouging fire less restricting.

I do not believe this would negatively affect the mid-low tier paradoxes, as A. they don't benefit near as much from it as higher tiers and B. they are more free to run choice items which benefit them more than booster, due to valiant losing some viability. Banning booster energy would also lower the overall power level, granting a broader range of pokemon viability which would absolutely be a healthy change for the meta.

booster energy usage % per paradox mon at 1500
Per rank:
S-
- 65% , Free life orb, Usage not higher due to having other viable sets but shows booster is the dominant set
A
- 89% , Yeah anyone could see this coming.
A-
- 50% , Rest of usage was split between cteamy items mostly
B+
- 46% , Weakness policy also common, Specs has 19% would be higher without val
- 79% , It's two best sets use it.
B-
- 56% , Choice band loses to val, atk or speed booster is far more reliable there.
C+
- 49% , About as common as specs, a 408 speed mon having to run speed booster is clearly result of other speed boosters like wake/val
- 35% , Specs more usage however loses to val. Main benefit of booster is the val mu.
- 81% , Outlier, would become worse post booster energy most likely.
D
- 86% , Loses to val if choiced but prefers specs to booster without val.
- 52% , Loses to val if banded, prefers band for the power.
- 79% , this thing is not good, no real better item to run but scarf could beat val if boosters gone
- 78% , same as treads, gonna be bad booster or not however likes the added power from specs

This shows that the most viable pokemon overall are just the ones who benefit the most from booster energy, while the lower ranked mons run it either instead of choice for val or are just bad no matter the item they run. I'm aware the above implies that encore disable val will not be a thing, however you can't discount the fact it will be a lot worse if booster was banned. While booster being banned decreases the speed tier overall, other paradoxes will be able to comfortably win against encore disable val with choice scarf.

The high usage across the board goes to show how much better Booster energy is than any other item, with a few exceptions.

Also, you cannot argue in full faith that the D tier mons losing Booster Energy would change the meta at all, they are mostly non factors booster or not, however they get better in the sense that higher ranked mons are getting worse.

For Deg

We shouldn't ban booster energy we should just ban the abusers - (He's gonna say that). I disagree, if we can possibly make unhealthy mons more healthy, we should. It's in the same vein as wanting to ban encore, which is a reasonable proposal.

I do not believe resuspecting flutter mane or scream tail would be a good idea for the record, as they were broken, booster aside. I also don't think the immediate ban of booster energy should happen, but if gouging fire or iron valiant prove to be unhealthy, booster should be discussed instead of the mons themselves.

 

[armaldlothearmaldo]

With the announcement of the upcoming Custap and Regidrago suspects, I thought it would be a good time to give my take on some different elements of the metagame. If there would be a better place to present my thoughts on custap and regidrago specifically, or if it is taboo to promulgate them at all, please do let me know.

I’ve used spoilers to avoid the post being too long because brevity is not in my vocabulary; feel free to only read the parts that interest you. If people want, I can reformat it later.

Introductory Disclaimers

This represents my own opinion; please take it only as that. I’m not particularly good at 1v1, though I think I have sufficient ethos to give my opinion on the tier. If you disagree, feel free to say so, though I would ask you do not do so vitriolically.

Broken vs. Uncompetitive vs. Unhealthy

Before launching into any discussion of the things to be suspected, it seems prudent to first define some critical terms, namely broken, uncompetitive, and unhealthy. My primary resources for this discussion will be a rather old, but nevertheless useful, forum thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...rk-for-competitive-and-uncompetitive.3550201/

Broken

I personally don’t see the question of what makes a pokemon broken to be that complex. It is worth noting however that what is broken in OU and what is broken in 1v1 differs slightly, so relying on the cited thread is not particularly helpful here.

I would suggest something is broken if either

A) The pokemon is capable of beating nearly the entire metagame with a single set (e.g., Terapagos) or, more likely,

B) The pokemon is capable of beating a sizable majority of the metagame with a single set and can viably run other sets to beat the main sets counters with relatively limited opportunity cost (cf. Mew in Gen7, Deoxys-Speed in Gen9)

This is a slightly fuzzy definition, but it should work for my purposes.

Uncompetitive

The question of what makes something uncompetitive requires a bit more discussion and, indeed, is the primary subject of the forum I dredged up.

Ultimately, something that is uncompetitive substantially devalues the impact of player decision making either by introducing a significant amount of luck into the game (i.e., sleep, quick claw, focus band), or by being unreasonable to predict and sufficiently changing the outcome of matchups. For further explications of this concept, please see the quotes below.

“Quotes”

Jpw234:

“Therefore, I propose the following definitions: a competitive metagame maximizes the number of meaningful, balanced choices available to players. Something could be considered uncompetitive if it decreases the number of meaningful, balanced choices available to players.” [Emphasis original]

Dread Arceus:

“Uncompetitive is either
1) A thoughtless strategy or aspect of the game
2) Something that takes away from the need to use strategy to win games.”

WECAMEASROMANS:

“Uncompetitive elements of the game remove or significantly decrease the amount of choices a player can make and dramatically shifts the game away from skill towards other external factors.”

Unhealthy

In the aforementioned thread, reymedy offered what seems to me to be a valuable definition of unhealthiness in pokemon. According to reymedy, an unhealthy pokmeon is “something neither outright uncompetitive nor broken enough to be stamped as such, but applying an undesirable influence on a given metagame.”

ABR offered a similar, but slightly more comprehensive definition:

“In regards to centralization and team matchup, a pokemon is unhealthy if it forces excessive adaptations that lead to a metagame where it is severely difficult to reasonably match up against all types of relevant teams, because so much focus goes into checking this unhealthy pokemon/strategy. Another way to look at centralization or brokenness in regards to the metagame is if it hinders metagame variety/development. If there is a pokemon/strat that is so good that everyone uses it, and there is very limited counterplay for it, then only very specific teams can thrive. This causes a very stale metagame, with very few viable options, which is arguably unhealthy.” [Emphasis added]


Was this all necessary? Almost certainly not, but I get agitated when people do not define their terms. It often creates unnecessary confusion.

Custap Berry

Custap has remained controversial. So far as I can tell, the discussion surrounding custap berry is not a discussion about whether it is broken but rather about whether it is uncompetitive.

Custap berry does not meet the criteria for uncompetitiveness defined above. It introduces no additional luck into play whatsoever, it can be reasonably predicted, and its impact on any given pokemon’s matchups is rather limited as DEG has compellingly demonstrated.

Ultimately, I have little to add to DEG’s post on the matter (see p. 11). It’s mildly annoying sometimes, but it’s more annoying than it is game-changing. I can’t think of a single match that I have lost solely because something unexpected had custap berry (not including the one unexpected disable I ran into with my custap berry pokemon).

Thus, the question becomes whether custap is unhealthy in the current metagame. Personally, I do not see it as being unhealthy. It does not force one or two specific answers, push an otherwise unwilling meta into a particular team archetype, or force any other sort of grand adaptation. Yes, certain pokemon’s sets have to adapt and run priority or protect, but most pokemon do not have to adapt in this way and it is a minor adaptation on the pokemon that do, typically only the sacrifice of a moveslot or sacrificing a choice item they likely don’t want to use anyway.

Regidrago

From my understanding, Regidrago has been controversial for some time.

Based on the definition I laid down above, Regidrago cannot be considered broken. While it does beat a large amount of the metagame with one set (if I had to choose one, scarf), it also loses to considerable portions of the meta (i.e., faster dragons, all good fairies, most good steels, and some other miscellany) and has limited ability to adapt. While it can switch out it’s scarf for a haban berry and improve certain matchups, it still struggles into certain other dragons (haban Baxcallibur, Kyurem, unnerve Haxorus, and haban Gouging Fire mainly) and it cannot adapt to beat fairies or good steels effectively.

That Regidrago is not uncompetitive should need no explanation, but the question of whether Regidrago is unhealthy is a bit less clear. Regidrago certainly does push the meta toward the DFS or DFF or DDS team structures and is much more noticeable in that regard than other pokemon like Gouging Fire. However, the metagame is already predisposed to those structures as DEG has discussed here. As such, it seems to me that Regidrago is a contributor to, but not a cause of, the current meta’s moderate state of centralization.

Additionally, it seems to me that it is quite possible to create a strong team in the current meta without adopting one of those core structures since Regidrago does have multiple counters that do different things in the metagame and can slot into multiple team structures even if they fit most easily into the DFS archetype or its variants. Primarina, for instance, is not solely confined to Primarina + Metagross or Primarina + Gouging Fire cores.

So, I do not believe Regidrago is unhealthy for the current meta, or at least not unhealthy enough to merit a ban. While it encourages centralization, it does not mandate it and the meta’s focus on DFS-type teams is not unnatural.

Encore

I largely agree with DEG on this matter, and I have no real reason to invest the time to further develop my thoughts at the present moment.

Booster Energy

This may be a product of my own ignorance on the matter or my recent entry into the tier, but I’m rather confused as to why the possibility of banning booster energy is even being discussed. The only pokemon that makes use of booster energy in such a way as to be even potentially problematic is Iron Valiant, which should provoke a discussion surrounding whether Iron Valiant is unhealthy (not, mind you, broken), not whether the item is. My knee-jerk reaction is to ban a single pokemon rather than an item that benefits many pokemon if the item is only genuinely abused by said pokemon (to offer a somewhat weak example, ban Mimikyu not Ghostium Z).

The Meta as a Whole

At present, the meta feels stable, albeit very mildly centralized. However, this centralization does not seem unhealthy, and the centralization around pokemon like Gouging Fire or Primarina (or, for that matter, Gouging Fire and Primarina) does not seem unassailable. It seems to me that we can innovate our way out of this; the meta is quite underdeveloped right now and there is plenty of room to innovate.

Given the underdeveloped nature of the meta, I would be inclined to hold off on any bans. Nothing is currently broken, and as was noted in the thread I have so frequently referenced throughout this post, it’s unclear what is unhealthy until the meta is stable, and I would add to that until the meta is developed.

Tl;dr: please don’t ban anything and listen to DEG.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Gonna put out my 2 grains of salt on the situation of what's going on. Specifically, Custap Berry .

To me, Custap Berry is an uncompetitive item. It's pretty much the bridge between gimmick and uncompetitive, and I believe it leans towards the latter. Let's take an example of Custap Berry in action:

Primarina @ Custap Berry
Ability: Liquid Voice
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Hydro Cannon
- Moonblast
- Aqua Jet
- Endure
^ We have a Primarina here with a pretty standard moveset of Moonblast + Hydro Cannon + Aqua Jet + Endure. Now suppose we put it up against my Archaludon

Archaludon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
- Aura Sphere
^ My Archaludon is a Choice Specs moveset of Aura Sphere + Thunderbolt + Flash Cannon + Draco Meteor. Now, normally if I was say... Power Herb and Electro Shot, I win this matchup any day of the week. However, when you include Custap Berry in the mix...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Archaludon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primarina: 276-326 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archaludon: 237-279 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
^^ Me simply not having Protect or Power Herb + Electro Shot means that I cannot win this matchup. Now, one could argue this is simply a teambuilding error -- and you're right. But... Unless you specifically have Power Herb and Electro Shot, or Protect as an alternative option, Archaludon doesn't beat Custap Berry Primarina unless there's a mistake in battle, or an EV mishap. And even if you do, it could have Protect to stop this (this isn't likely at all but it is an option). Now, if you take into account what Custap Berry sets usually have, it is Endure and Custap Berry -- with the potential for maximizing an offensive stat, or maybe EVing to live a specific hit. This is perfectly manageable, you may ask yourself, they're always almost locked into an entire item and move slot. This is easy to beat. Well then... let's look at some conventional ways you can beat Custap Berry, and how much of a risk they are.


1) Protect. This is a very concrete solution to beating Custap Berry. Usually they're slower than you and they click Endure the turn you knock them down into Custap range. But would you use it for something else, or is it natively a Custap Berry answer?

2) Priority. Priority is also pretty easy as a method to beat Custap Berry. It is technically higher than 0 priority whilst being lower than +1 priority -- so that's pretty good. There's many pokemon with priority that have/use priority moves for Custap esque situations. If you can fit it on your team, you should. IF you can fit it on your team...

3) Knock Off. Remove the Custap Berry altogether. Awesome. Now what would happen if they used an actual damaging move? You need to think about the advantage you gain from doing this -- as either it's an amazing payoff, or a wasted move as you are in OHKO range the following turn.

4) Unnerve. Same concept as Knock Off -- negate the threat of Custap Berry as a whole. Your options for this though are kinda... well, not wanting to use Unnerve.

There are other options as well like stalling or hard reads, however, I don't think a single item that lacks a genuine answer to it is not worthy of being in this tier -- or any tier with such a controversial item. The thing about Endure is that it's the same priority as Protect, but you, if it reaches that point, are at 1 HP for the whole turn. No damaging move can go past Endure, and that's the most common form of winning games in 1v1. Any good 1v1 player can prepare and/or beat Custap Berry. Many pokemon could beat all variants of a specific pokemon(s) -- such as Iron Valiant beating all Regidrago save for an in-battle crit or error. This item is essentially a more restrictive Quick Claw, and Quick Claw is banned for its uncompetitive nature of gimping wins. Custap Berry does nearly the same thing, and unless you have a status that inflicts damage against the Custap Berry pokemon, you're going to need to try to survive the following turn. At least with Booster Energy, you KNOW what's going to happen -- as it either has a Life Orb boost to every stat barring Speed, or an unrestricted Choice Scarf boost for the Speed stat. The difference here is you know what Custap Berry does, yet you cannot play around it without some heavy investment. Between the variables within Custap Berry, the linear ways to actually beat it, and the fact that well... YOU DON'T NEED TO BRING IT and can beat the mon that attempted to beat the Custap variant of it, I feel like Custap Berry needs a ban. If it isn't banned, I'm totally fine with that. I get where the other side of the argument is with the skill cap of using it. But in my opinion, that same skill cap makes this item (currently) possibly the most uncompetitive item in 1v1 as of now -- and I prefer to have skill in my games -- not undeserved wins due to you "being faster".

 

[bern]

Unless you specifically have Power Herb and Electro Shot, or Protect as an alternative option, Archaludon doesn't beat Custap Berry Primarina unless there's a mistake in battle, or an EV mishap.

power herb is archaludon's most common item and electro shot is its most common coverage option. bad example.

1) Protect. This is a very concrete solution to beating Custap Berry. Usually they're slower than you and they click Endure the turn you knock them down into Custap range. But would you use it for something else, or is it natively a Custap Berry answer?

2) Priority. Priority is also pretty easy as a method to beat Custap Berry. It is technically higher than 0 priority whilst being lower than +1 priority -- so that's pretty good. There's many pokemon with priority that have/use priority moves for Custap esque situations. If you can fit it on your team, you should. IF you can fit it on your team...

3) Knock Off. Remove the Custap Berry altogether. Awesome. Now what would happen if they used an actual damaging move? You need to think about the advantage you gain from doing this -- as either it's an amazing payoff, or a wasted move as you are in OHKO range the following turn.

4) Unnerve. Same concept as Knock Off -- negate the threat of Custap Berry as a whole. Your options for this though are kinda... well, not wanting to use Unnerve.

every pokémon ranked b and above that want to run protect:

every pokémon ranked b and above with priority: (both)

every pokémon ranked b and above with knock off:
(although many of these don't want to run it, it's still an option)

every pokémon ranked b and above with unnerve: (lol)


the list of pokémon that can counter custap berry is not small by any means, which is why i believe it's not that bad.
a possibility is that endure is the problem, since it's what fuels these custap strategies (forces 50/50s and the luck chance of getting it twice is not something your game should depend on).

that's kinda all i wanted to say, drago is overcentralizing to an unhealthy degree imo, but everyone's entitled to their opinions.

 

[armaldlothearmaldo]

Given my limited experience in the 1v1 tier, the USUM Kyurem-Black resuspect test is my only real frame of reference for what a suspect looks like. As such, I was looking back at the discussion thread for it, and a few points stood out that remain relevant in the context of the upcoming Regidrago suspect, and to a lesser extent for thinking about our meta as a whole right now, that I would like to present without comment.

"Centralization is a term that has been thrown around a lot in the past 2 years of 1v1, and is always portrayed as something evil, but in my absence from 1v1 I've realized that it's not necessarily evil. Centralization can be good, as can decentralization. Both can also be bad, it's up to what you want.
A decentralized metagame brings more variety, the emphasis in this meta is on surprise, which is also what will bring you the furthest because of the large quantities of just-barely-not-good-enough pokemon. You can't beat them all so you gotta outwtf Yes, outwtf is a word now them.
A centralized meta on the other hand emphasizes preparation. In a centralized metagame teams are more predictable and thus easier to counter, giving you more room to be a good teambuilder and work towards a team that beats a larger portion of the relevant metagame. This doesn't mean you don't get a chance to be creative however, centralized metagames is also where highly efficient niche sets like Stunfisk manage to blossom." - UOP [emphasis original]

"Yes but you failed to draw the line between centralizing and overcentralizing. Yes, centralizing is good and healthy for the metagame so it doesn't turn into a chaos of surprises after surprises but overcentralizing is a plague for the metagame. Overcentralizing is what force users to use niche Pokémon that has significantly no use outside of checking this Pokémon.
Pokémon such as Mega Gyarados, Tapu Lele and more are centralizing as you are forced to follow a trail left behind which allows you to not go the unknown. Meanwhile, right now, Kyurem-Black is Overcentralizing, sorry but using niche Pokémon to counter one big boy is what I consider unhealthy. No, Kyurem-Black doesn't balance the metagame." - DEG

Make of these what you will; I'm just here to share the results of my antiquarian researches.

For the record, I do occasionally disagree with DEG on things; he does make some decent points though now and again.

Note: I edited out a typo.

 

[RTM]

Given my limited experience in the 1v1 tier, the USUM Kyurem-Black resuspect test is my only real frame of reference for what a suspect looks like. As such, I was looking back that the discussion thread for it, and a few points stood out that remain relevant in the context of the upcoming Regidrago suspect, and to a lesser extent for thinking about our meta as a whole right now, that I would like to present without comment.

"Centralization is a term that has been thrown around a lot in the past 2 years of 1v1, and is always portrayed as something evil, but in my absence from 1v1 I've realized that it's not necessarily evil. Centralization can be good, as can decentralization. Both can also be bad, it's up to what you want.
A decentralized metagame brings more variety, the emphasis in this meta is on surprise, which is also what will bring you the furthest because of the large quantities of just-barely-not-good-enough pokemon. You can't beat them all so you gotta outwtf Yes, outwtf is a word now them.
A centralized meta on the other hand emphasizes preparation. In a centralized metagame teams are more predictable and thus easier to counter, giving you more room to be a good teambuilder and work towards a team that beats a larger portion of the relevant metagame. This doesn't mean you don't get a chance to be creative however, centralized metagames is also where highly efficient niche sets like Stunfisk manage to blossom." - UOP [emphasis original]

"Yes but you failed to draw the line between centralizing and overcentralizing. Yes, centralizing is good and healthy for the metagame so it doesn't turn into a chaos of surprises after surprises but overcentralizing is a plague for the metagame. Overcentralizing is what force users to use niche Pokémon that has significantly no use outside of checking this Pokémon.
Pokémon such as Mega Gyarados, Tapu Lele and more are centralizing as you are forced to follow a trail left behind which allows you to not go the unknown. Meanwhile, right now, Kyurem-Black is Overcentralizing, sorry but using niche Pokémon to counter one big boy is what I consider unhealthy. No, Kyurem-Black doesn't balance the metagame." - DEG

Make of these what you will; I'm just here to share the results of my antiquarian researches.

For the record, I do occasionally disagree with DEG on things; he does make some decent points though now and again.

1v1 has shown that both centralised and decentralised metas have their place.

For example, oras has and probably always will be ruled by the likes of zardx Mgarde and mmeta and oras has its place as a tier. In a meta like Oras, many usually obscure mons can have a niche if they beat certain high ranks. The strengths of a centralised meta are they are easy to pick up and play, as well as being consistent because there isn’t as much you need to beat that’s relevant.

A decentralised meta like ss, where council can’t even decide on which mons are the best has also proven successful and engaging to its players, especially for those who enjoy flexibility and expressing creativity in building. Certainly not making preparation just surprise like you suggested. In fact, building is more challenging which gives the tiers a very low skill floor and a high skill ceiling.

I don’t necessarily think either should be strived for, however you shouldn’t avoid banning things which deserve to be banned as to avoid making a meta decentralised as it’s been shown that decentralised metas can work and be enjoyable.

On the topic of regidrago, I don’t see it as the best mon in the meta, I don’t even know if it’s in my top 3 (mainly because 2.5 of the top 3 counter it). However, this doesn’t mean it’s not bannable. Regidrago is certainly overcentralising, mandating counters which have little variety. Its counterplay options to its counters are somewhat limited but I don’t see that as any reason not to ban it. While one can pose the argument that fairies and certain steels would still be very prevalent without drago, I fail to see why this matters. Being able to drop the mandatory fairy /steel slot would definitely see these mons get worse as you would be able to afford to run more fishy / antimeta mons.

 

[Miyoko]

In my opinion, custap must stay Unbanned
It is like the key of bulky pokemons to become useful.

Why do I think so ?
Now, custap is like the heart of 1v1. Without custap, 1v1 is like a car without a key. I think so because Pokemons r made bulky enough to live shots just so that they can activate custap. Several Pokemon such as Primarina and which r top currently will drop from heaven to hell just because of 1 ban.


Some common custap berry users and their weaknesses :-
- loses to Ogerpon-Wellspring , Ogerpon-Hearthflame , Hoopa-Unbound , Sneasler Bullet punch Heavy Slam Metagross etc

- loses to Landorus , Regidrago (Haban set) and stall mons such as Mewoscarada , Ogerpon-hearthflame etc

- loses to Landorus Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Urnerve and Mold Breaker Haxorus , Earthquake Bullet punch Metagross etc

- loses to all types of fairies such as Azumarill , Primarina , etc and also Steel types such as Metagross , Clam Mind Iron Defense Iron Crown


Weaknesses of Custap Berry itself :-
Protect - Pokemon such as Iron Valiant, Leech Stall Meowscarada Ogerpon-hearthflame run Protect / Spiky Shield which makes custap fail.

Encore - Encoring into Endure can help oppo's get win easily. Encore mons such as Iron Valiant and Ogerpon-hearthflame can do it.

Opposing Endure - Opposing Pokemon can run endure as well :)

Knock off - One of the most Wanted moves is knock off. Opponents can knock ur item off i.e., get rid of ur Custap Berry and then attack freely. This is seen in pokemons such as Hoopa-Unbound and Great tusk , etc.

My thoughts on the meta with custap berry :-

My honest thought is that the metagame is stable with Custap berry and I personally think banning custap can make the meta unstable since there will be rise of choice items and slower mons (such as Primarina) will lose usage. Thus, I think Custap berry must stay Unbanned

Lastly

I think this mon needs more to be banned than custap berry tbh. Anyways Thank you!

 

[armaldlothearmaldo]

With the custap berry suspect being over and the Regidrago suspect not having started yet, those of us not in OGPL have a bit of a breather. As such, I thought I would give some thoughts on the current meta, which I discussed pretty minimally in my last post and which I got to think about way too much during reqs laddering. It's also possible that I like the sound of my own voice, but I think I have something original to contribute. I'm using spoilers because it's kind of a lot of text, as is my wont.

The Metagame as a Whole

Mainly, I want to talk about where I think the meta can develop to, since deg's January 17 post on the metagame is still more or less a reflection of where the meta is. After all, [18:54] +deg: deg is always right. To recap for people who didn't read deg's post: the meta is focused on dragon types right now, meaning that the pokemon that do well into dragons, namely fairies and steels, and the things that do well into those things, namely fire types, are quite good. I would extend this logic a bit further: ground types and water types do well into steel and fire types (water also does well into grounds) while having potentially good matchups into some fairies and some common dragons (choice banded Donphan is a good, concrete example, since it can beat Gouging Fire and Metagross with earthquake and Primarina and Whimsicott with gunk shot). One step beyond this, grass types do well into the things that do well into the meta, meaning they hypothetically have a role to play on meta teams. Wings of Dragons (Dragon Fire, Dragon Steel, Grass type) and DDoS (Steel, Dragon Fire, and Dragon Water) are decent examples of this paradigm. As far as I can tell, other types, like poison or rock, need to be taken on a very concrete, case by case basis and don't fit into this model so well.

So, why does this matter? Because it offers directions for meta development and exploration. Exploring the different pokemon that fit within this archetype that do not see much use, such as Venusaur or Arcanine, could prove quite beneficial, and I believe there are many underused options that can carve out niches in the meta. Personally, I think exploring along these lines will be much more beneficial than simply stumbling around without clear purpose in the short and medium terms. In the long run, of course, other things will have to be developed, and there is definitely a lot to look at outside my overly neat model.

tl;dr: Dragons are good. Fairies and steels do well into dragons. Fires do well into those and support dragons. Waters and grounds do well into fires and steels and are therefore anti-meta. Grasses do well into waters and grounds and therefore support natural meta cores. Everything else is weird right now, so explore underused pokemon of those types.

Archaludon

I would also like to formally join the growing chorus of people calling for tiering action against Archaludon at some point in the future, though obviously the focus right now should be on Regidrago. At present, between standard power herb, power herb with iron defense and body press, and stamina assault vest, Archaludon feels extremely difficult to build, and pick, against. These three sets, to say nothing of more niche options like scarf, give Archaludon an amazing matchup spread into the tier (I would go into concrete examples, since 1v1 thrives on those, but I haven't got the time) and with relatively minor tweaks, Archaludon is capable of teching almost everything. Landorus-T, for instance, loses to metal burst, Haxorus can be bulked for, haban berry Regidrago and Raging Bolt hard lose to assault vest, Metagross loses to iron defense body press, Sneasler loses to stamina, and so on. The fundamental problem that makes Archaludon so powerful is this: the conventional method to dealing with sturdy pokemon, especially sturdy pokemon with metal burst, is to hit them with a weak attack like rock tomb or fake out followed by a powerful nuke. On the physical side, Archaludon can punish that with stamina, usually preventing a 2hko. On the special side, assault vest affords it tremendous bulk even without sturdy. However, because it may be sturdy, it's difficult to endorse clicking the nuclear option turn one which can lead to being metal bursted (Landorus-T), mirror coated, or perhaps just normally KOed (Sneasler). By the time you figure out which it is, the game is probably decided.

tl;dr: Archaludon has an excellent set of tools in 1v1 and specifically has an ideal toolkit to punish common means of beating sturdy pokemon.

 

[bern]

time to throw my two cents ig

Overcentralization and unhealthiness
this is where most SV players split, as currently we've come at what has probably been the biggest argument in the entirety of SV, which is the allowance of Regidrago and the good and bad of centralization, i have been quite (extremely) vocal about regidrago to say the least. i've believed it deserved a suspect since the initial Hoopa-U ban and i was so glad that it will finally have one, so: as i've argued before, Regidrago is overcentralizing, it forces fairies, steels, and faster dragons (which it can still adapt to with haban or scarf) to no end, and while it is correct that fairies and steels would still be prominent without it, regidrago kinda forces everything else out and makes the meta more focused on answering it with a fairy and/or steel pokemon, of which there are many that are viable thanks to it. (with currently 7 fairies and 6 steels being ranked B- and above)

Regidrago is also relevant in the predominance of the DFS core, as it can be a part of it, as well as get countered by it, but i don't think what people realize is that this predominance is what makes Regidrago unhealthy. because of the fact 80% of the meta loses to it, and the only reliable answers are steels and fairies, having both a fairy and a steel accompanying it not only already helped with what mons you won against, but also you win against Regidrago with more than 1 pokemon. Regidrago is incredibly scary on preview if your team isn't DFS, and it can force 50/50s because of this presence, forcing you to pick between the mon that beats drago and the one that doesn't is detrimental to preview regardless of if you're the one using Regidrago or not. this also means that Regidrago will usually never be a 3-0 on preview, because it's such a good mon and you have to account for it. the meta is centered around dragons, yes, and DFS will remain a common core, but as it is currently, it's been around everywhere and one of the reasons why is Regidrago forcing every other pokémon out of the equation and focusing on DFS, DFF, FFS, etc. this also means FWG isn't that good of a core as it was because of dragon dominance, which is why you'll often see prim or azu trying to accomodate for the Regidrago problem.

here's a concrete list of what mons can handle regidrago consistently:
Fairies
Some steels (mons like and crumble to eq and loses too [click on corv for replay])
Some sets of
Scarf, AV, AV

kinda tiny, don't you think? (if you wanna add more to this list please do so you can prove me wrong, these are all just off the top of my head)

tl;dr regidrago demolishes more than 3/4 of the meta and forces fairies and steels unlike any other dragon-type, thus making it unhealthy and overcentralizing

Overpoweredness
it's really good, read armaldlothearmaldo's thoughts on arch it's a good post and i agree with his statements, could be qb'd maybe idk lol

ok that's it ty for reading
reminder that this is opinion, not fact (except the list). nothing i say will make an impact on the actual decisions of council.

 

[DEG]

This is why we should NOT prioritize/suspect Regidrago.

To put it frankly and with the fewest words possible, Regidrago is NOT unhealthy or overcentralizing in the current SV metagame and taking action on it before any other Pokemon is a waste of time and will not change the metagame.

forces fairies, steels, and faster dragons (which it can still adapt to with haban or scarf) to no end, and while it is correct that fairies and steels would still be prominent without it, regidrago kinda forces everything else out and makes the meta more focused on answering it with a fairy and/or steel pokemon, of which there are many that are viable thanks to it. (with currently 7 fairies and 6 steels being ranked B- and above)

The wording here is wrong and misleading. Regidrago does not force a steel, a dragon or a fairy at all. You said it, you ARE going to use Pokemon with that typing. It's natural. Saying Regidrago forces usage of these types is wrong since you imply that you would not use them if it wasn't for Regidrago. You can link that with the Pokemon you showcased in the end of your post, all these mons are inherently great most of the time and will be used regardless so Regidrago is not forcing their usage. You could however say, force you to click them, which is correct, but they can form formidable cores together so most of the time you're not even forced into a 50/50 unlike SS for example. It's just clicking, regular 1v1.

Regidrago is also relevant in the predominance of the DFS core, as it can be a part of it, as well as get countered by it, but i don't think what people realize is that this predominance is what makes Regidrago unhealthy. because of the fact 80% of the meta loses to it, and the only reliable answers are steels and fairies, having both a fairy and a steel accompanying it not only already helped with what mons you won against, but also you win against Regidrago with more than 1 pokemon.

Wrong, Regidrago is not the reason DFS is predominant. The individual Pokemon that form that core are amazing on their own, also referring to the list of Pokemon you inserted in the end. They will always be used, they will always be dominant. Also, strictly metagame speaking, DFS variants should not be used since they're weak to dominant Pokemon. If you're using DFS every game you have a glaring weakness to Gouging and Archaludon as a start. I don't agree with DFS supremacy from the start, nor I agree Regidrago helps in DFS. I also believe DFS with Gouging/Archa is the superior version and the one that loses the less to the metagame; i.e: Arch+Prim, Gouging+Crown is better than Drago+Fairy/Steel.

this also means that Regidrago will usually never be a 3-0 on preview, because it's such a good mon and you have to account for it. the meta is centered around dragons, yes, and DFS will remain a common core, but as it is currently, it's been around everywhere and one of the reasons why is Regidrago forcing every other pokémon out of the equation and focusing on DFS, DFF, FFS, etc. this also means FWG isn't that good of a core as it was because of dragon dominance, which is why you'll often see prim or azu trying to accomodate for the Regidrago problem.

You actually circled back to saying that DFS will always be a thing which I agree as I previously said. However, you made another mistake, Regidrago does not force DFF, FFS and it certainly does not destroy FWG lol. If you look at the cores you stated they have one mutual breaker which is not Regidrago, it's actually Gouging Fire. With Regidrago gone, Gouging will have a chokehold on the cores you stated. Gouging simply destroys FWG, it destroys DFF, and FFS, unlike you like use prim/azu as a fairy everytime and you stated that you don't want that.

In your opening lines you said that it's a good mon and you have to account for it, which is the same for Gouging Fire, Archaludon, Valiant, Prim and every other good meta defining Pokemon so I don't see the point.

here's a concrete list of what mons can handle regidrago consistently:

I would invite you to do the same exercise for Gouging Fire and Archaludon and come back to me. Well you did state arch is OP so ill give you that.
I would like to add that building teams that make drago a 1-2 or fend off drago is easy and natural, you don't have to bend yourself to beat or fend off drago on preview. I'll go more in details when the time but this is just a fast post.

- Regidrago should NOT be a priority when thinking of the next step
- Regidrago is NOT currently overcentralizing or unhealthy since it does not force anything, it's just the natural flow of the meta
- Suspecting it is a waste of time since hypothetically banning it doesn't change anything in the metagame as seen by the popular cores, and metagame trends
- Restating from my custap post "This does not mean this element won't be broken in the future but CURRENTLY there's no need for action"
- Would rather shift the focus on Gouging and Archaludon
- Personally, the metagame is perfect and there's no need to ban anything but I can agree with Gouging and Arch if the community feels like it.

 

[lost heros]

Hi, let's talk about Archaludon

​

Section 1: The obvious shit

Typing: Steel/Dragon is a very strong offensive and defensive typing. Defensively Arch resists 8 types and doubly resists another 1. It also is immune to toxic and poison, for a total of 10 types it's resistant to. Offensively, it only hits 4 types Super Effectively, but it is also only resisted by 1 type, Steel. Then going over to our handy little coverage tool at https://pokemondb.net/tools/type-coverage, we can see there's only a few pokemon that actually resist it's STABs. Legal fully evolved pokemon are . Fun fact all of these pokemon, sans Empoleon, are weak to Fire, and many are weak to Fighting (we'll get to why that's important soon). In fact with Steel/Dragon/Fighting/Electric Coverage, there are 0 pokemon that resist all of them.

Stats: 90/105/130/125/65/85 for a total of 600 BST is very good. There's significant Physical Bulk and strong Special Attack with a not necessarily insignificant Attack Stat. In addition, while 85 speed isn't the best, it's still fast enough where Speed Investing can be very beneficial.

Abilities: Stalwart is fake, but Sturdy is arguably one of the best abilities in the game for 1v1. Being able to live a hit for free with no bulk investment in 1v1 is absurdly good. Stamina is no slouch either; although it's way more niche in usage, a slow build up of defensive boosts can be very valuable.

Movepool: Draco Meteor, Flash Cannon, Dragon Pulse, Electro Shot, Body Press are rather core moves for a wide variety of sets. For coverage options for it has access to Thunderbolt, Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, Foul Play, Mirror Coat. For effective situational moves there is Rock Tomb, Metal Burst, Metal Sound. For specific set options, it has Meteor Beam, Endure, Outrage, Iron Head. There are more things too it can run, Protect, Rest, Swords Dance, Iron Defense, Breaking Swipe, Snarl, but those are barely relevant.

Section 2: Quick Sets because I don't feel like EVing

Set 1: Power Herb is inarguably the most popular set on ladder right now and the best. I've highlighted Timid as it's the preferred nature, but both work. With Power Herb, Electro Shot is a pseudo-STAB option giving 2 big 130 BP moves that can devastate a lot of frailer Pokemon. Meteor Beam also works similarly although it's a bit weaker, and then Flash Cannon works as secondary STAB. Rock Tomb is amazing speed control and pairs very well with Sturdy (Probably better than either previous option). Metal sound is when you want to really blow up pokemon.

Spoiler

Power Herb (Archaludon) @ Power Herb
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Electro Shot
- Meteor Beam / Flash Cannon / Rock Tomb / Metal Sound
- Meteor Beam / Flash Cannon / Rock Tomb / Metal Sound

Set 2: Custap Berry is a very solid option for obvious reasons. 2 nearly guaranteed attacks thanks to Sturdy is absurdly good. 2 Draco Meteor's is still stronger than 2 Dragon Pulse, but for bulkier match ups and for Haban match ups it can definitely be valuable. Thunderbolt is just good coverage. Mirror Coat lets you run speed invest with still a strong counter option for special attackers. Metal Sound > Draco or Endure > Draco blows things up.

Spoiler

Custap (Archaludon) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
- Endure
- Flash Cannon / Thunderbolt / Mirror Coat / Metal Sound / Protect
- Flash Cannon / Thunderbolt / Mirror Coat / Metal Sound / Protect

Set 3: Choice Specs focuses instead on just pure power. Draco Meteor goes brrrrr, and a boosted Flash Cannon is good. Boosted coverage options as well can be good, but in my opinion rarely hit their targets. Dark Pulse can surprise some Metagross and Iron Crown that are expecting to counter Archaludon, no matter what. Thunder can sometimes beat a Primarina. But overall, I'm Not A Fan(tm). Steel Beam can only be used if you survive a 2HKO or are faster.

Spoiler

Choice Specs (Archaludon) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse / Thunderbolt / Mirror Coat / Steel Beam
- Dark Pulse / Thunderbolt / Mirror Coat / Steel Beam

Set 4: Stamina AV (EVs courtesy of kenn, I am told it does stuff) tries to punish the Sturdy Punishers of the tier. Turn 1-ing Fake Out, Rock Tomb, or Bulldoze can all of a sudden make Arch even more physically bulky and also boost its Body Press. Assault Vest aims to fill SpD weakness and somewhat make up for the lack of Sturdy. STABs are STABs and then coverage is niche. Rock Tomb does Rock Tomb stuff.

Spoiler

Assault Vest (Archaludon) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Steel EVs: 240 HP / 4 Def / 128 SpA / 72 SpD / 64 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Body Press
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt / Mirror Coat / Rock Tomb

Those are what I think are the main sets. There's also a few other sets that are still more hypothetical. There's also dedicated IronPress set in Set Comp with Air Balloon or Chople Berry. I've experimented a bit with a Scarf set which has been pretty good as well. Physical / Band sets were also experimented a bit, but I doubt any of these will necessarily take off.

Section 3: Partnering

I'll go over the metagame spread next, but that's long and a lot of calcs, so I'd rather do this first.

Fire-types: Fire-types can help break through the Steel pokemon that outright resists Archaludon's STABs. Thanks to Electro Shot, Power Herb sets excel at breaking down water-types. Dragon STAB with Sturdy and a secondary steel-type means Arch can break dragon-types that Fires would struggle with. Furthermore, a Fire / Arch core is especially deadly to Fairy-types, which are typically a strong type in 1v1. There are also many good Fire-type pokemon. Ogerpon-H, Gouging Fire, Volcanion, and Skeledirge, were all "OU" usage last month at 1630.

Hoopa-U: Already one of the best pokemon in the metagame, Hoopa-U pairs extremely well with Archaludon. Being an offensive Steel-type, Arch can usually scare off most Fairy-types that could be problematic for Hoopa-U , and Hoopa-U thanks to a physical bias can usually handle AV users in addition to Metagross and Iron Crown.

Grass-types: While these pokemon don't benefit a lot from Archaludon's Electro Shot hitting Water-types, Arch definitely appreciates how they can handle Ground-types, that could sometimes be an issue. If you run Meteor Beam Power Herb, Arch can also threaten virtually all Fire-Types for them too.

Section 4: Metagame Spread

Ok fine I'll do a bunch of boring calcs. Spoilers within spoilers ofc.

Spoiler

S Rank

Starting off with a very interesting Match-Up honestly. A simple Max/Max Adamant Booster Gouging will virtually always lose as it's always slower than Timid Arch and dies to Draco Meteor

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 440-518 (125.3 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A Max / Max Jolly Booster set could theoretically Sub on T1 and then 2HKO with Outrage.

-2 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 218-260 (62.1 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 186-220 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course if you Power Herb Electro Shot turn 1 that's more than enough damage to break the substitute and no amount of Substitute shenanigans will save Gouging.

(substitute 1 - 76%)

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 110-129 (31.3 - 36.7%) -- 75.5% chance to 3HKO

(substitute 2 - 51%)

-1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 294-348 (83.7 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(substitute 3- 26%)

-3 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 176-210 (50.1 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-5 still does too much damage.

-5 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 126-150 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So overall, IF Gouging starts running Substitute a Power Herb Arch set is in a set predict 50/50 where on reveal of Booster it's can Draco for the Kill but if they sub you lose, or it can Electro Shot to break the sub but if they Scale Shot you lose. Kinda cool tbh.

And that's BEFORE we even talk about Bulky Attack Boosters

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 216 HP / 252 SpD Gouging Fire: 342-404 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

40+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Scale Shot (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 108-129 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- approx. 3HKO

40+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 172-204 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is a mess of rolls but it's roughly a 33% chance to win and can be got by a Rock Tomb. Not particularly good

Now of course this is all very moveset dependent on Gouging.

As for the other major Gouging set, Haban, without booster Scale > Outrage doesn't KO consistently as you need 4 hits + a roll or 5 hits, which is a roughly 20% chance.

252+ Atk Gouging Fire Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 132-160 (41.1 - 49.8%) -- approx. 3HKO

252+ Atk Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 157-186 (48.9 - 57.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

As for other Arch spreads, they all just dummy Gouging without really any games.

Custap could be somewhat interesting because Gouging could be faster and could do sub and Burning shenanigans, but overall I still think Arch is favored in this MU.

S- Rank

Most Arch sets have absolutely no problem with Prim for fairly obvious reasons. Enduring doesn't really matter when Prim still has to break the Sturdy somehow

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 364-430 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Maybe you can bulk it but then what? You can't exactly KO back.

You're better off not Enduring and predicting a Custap set from Arch.

252 SpA Archaludon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 170-200 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Archaludon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 186-220 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archaludon: 237-279 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you do that you can do shenanigans with Encore at least. The Arch is dropped into Custap range for turn 2. They Thunderbolt again on your Endure. Now you as Prim have a custap turn, if you Encore their Endure you'll win, and if you Moonblast on their Tbolt you'll win. Fun! Of course, hopefully they didn't just mirror coat on 1 where you should've CM'd OOPS.

Stamina AV isn't 2HKO'd by Moonblast, but also only rolls for the TBolt kill. If you can anticipate it, I believe a CM T1 can win it for the Prim.

Overall, I'd still say favored for the Arch.



Finally an easy one!

Haban beats Power Herb Arch with Scale > Draco Meteor. Non-Haban's are dropped. Rock Tomb is not saving you here.

252+ Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Scale Shot (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 90-108 (28 - 33.6%) -- approx. 0.1% chance to 3HKO

0- SpA Dragon's Maw Regidrago Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 72 SpD Archaludon: 241-285 (75 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- Atk Archaludon Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Regidrago: 61-72 (11.2 - 13.3%) -- possible 8HKO

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Haban Berry Regidrago: 358-423 (66.1 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I believe nearly every other Arch set wins, or with Custap Shenanigans, causes 50/50s into double Endure, because the Drago can sometimes make the conscious choice to not drop the Arch into Custap range with Breaking Swipe or Scale Shot #2

Stamina AV will make Scale and Draco a roll, but a lot of this is EV speculation and I don't like doing it, but overall Arch is favored I'm psure.

A+ Rank

Arch really struggles with Hoopa-U. Drain Punch + AV kinda dummies it.

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 110-130 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 39.1% chance to 3HKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 165-195 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO

-1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 75-88 (20.6 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

0+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 144-170 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO (20% recovered)

Of course with Stamina AV in the picture we get something a bit more interesting. (I'm manually changing the Calc here to 252+ ATK on Hoopa-U)

252+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 168-198 (44 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 112-134 (29.3 - 35.1%) -- 13.2% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. +2 240 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 84-100 (22 - 26.2%) -- 8.6% chance to 4HKO

(91% Chance to 3HKO!), but

+1 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 164-193 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

+2 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 218-257 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hoopa-U gets 2HKO'd before the roll even happens.



I'm sure it's possible to pick up wins (I know I have with Scarf Foul Play), but these are the most solid counters by far. I'm not running calcs.



0- Atk Archaludon Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 94-112 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 213-252 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rock Tomb, can break sub but it doesn't stop SubSeed, because Ogerpon will just SubTect you anyways. Pray for the miss I guess. Meteor Beam on 1 might look good, but Ogerpon can just sub t1 just in case.

Vs Offensive Ogerpon-H (lol)

252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 148-175 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO

It's a roll (Despite mold breaker, with how math works it's better to not SD and just try for the 2HKO), so Electro > Draco is what you need to win.

Overall a bad Arch MU

A Rank

Not as much as guarantee as you'd expect.

252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 386-456 (109.9 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This has to get disabled, and thus

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 312-368 (88.8 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO on the disable turn.

If you don't OHKO, your Rock Tomb can sometimes kill, and a smart Valiant goes for Moonblast to pick up the 2HKO if it doesn't completely foregoing encore.

0 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 169-201 (52.6 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you had electro t1 you get encored and disabled before you fire off a beam, so don't do that!

Custap actually loses here, because you can't endure the second moonblast because if you endure you get encored

Specs loses (This set is so bad guys, why does it have 10% usage), because of Disable.

Stamina AV is a bit interesting, because Moonblast drops to a 4HKO with investment meaning, if you have a good coverage move you can probably win.



Kinda weird. If Stall Pecha is max speed (not like a crazy thing to say), it can use parting shot and recover and stall out Arch and make it die, but if it's slower it gets 2HKO'd, unless it invests and has a healing item then it doesn't

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pecharunt: 230-271 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Neutral Draco Meteor does the same)

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Pecharunt: 177-209 (46.5 - 55%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO

Every other Arch should also lose.



Not so straightforward as you'd might expect (or maybe you do expect it because so many of these are not straightforward)

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Porygon-Z: 260-307 (83.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This doesn't kill, meaning Arch needs to rock tomb first to beat Uproar from Specs

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Uproar vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 215-253 (66.9 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(or ice beam or dark pulse)

But if you do that vs Scarf you still don't necessarily outspeed and Uproar still has a chance of 2HKOing

252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Uproar vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 144-170 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO

And then what about vs Custap? Then you're 50/50 after dark pulse or ice beam t1 doing non boosted damage (they could be scarf still!) and do you predict the Endure > Hyper Beam and Rock Tomb again or do you go for the KO?

And what if they've just Trick their choice item on to you T1?? Now you're locked into Rock Tomb as they do Coverage > Hyper Beam

Custap Arch does a little better as it can just Draco t1 and set read a little bit better Endure appropriately and win. Stamina AV dummies, obviously.



Why must I suffer with intricacies in what should be a simple match-up?

Arch is bulkable for Raging Bolt, and thanks to Thunderclap can have priority to pick up a 2HKO (I just chose 100

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 164 SpD Raging Bolt: 384-452 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

96+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 262-310 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

96+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 108-127 (33.6 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Custap isn't saving you here either, although Stamina AV predictably will.



What set you running bud? Unaware Dirge has a bad time because it's getting hit by Draco's that just won't stop. But most Skeledirge's are Custap, and Skeledirge CAN bulk Meteor Beam, meaning with some investment they can Torch on 1 without fear and Blast Burn on 2 for the 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Meteor Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 330-390 (80.2 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 133-157 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Skeledirge Blast Burn vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 249-294 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(I didn't feel like figuring out the actual benchmarks)

Custap Arch can pick up a win vs uninvested Skeledirge, but Draco Meteor doesn't really have the necessary power to really win vs any amount of investment

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Skeledirge: 262-309 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is out of custap range and can most of the time 2HKO post drop so Skeledirge has to Endure here, but then Arch can endure the following turn and get the win that way.

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Skeledirge: 231-273 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Avoids this issue as draco no longer 2HKOs and Skeledirge can just Torch> Torch no worries.

0+ SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 145-172 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO

+1 0+ SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 219-258 (68.2 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As for Stamina AV, you're still getting got by Torch Song > Blast Burn.



I didn't believe this calc when I saw it, but it's right.

252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 204-242 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sylveon doesn't need to endure t1 meaning it can Hyper Voice > Endure > Custap to win.

84 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archaludon: 193-228 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, Arch's on Custap Set can take care of that issue, although Sylveon can run Quick Attack, although I believe that is rare nowadays.

Stamina AV also loses as Hyper Voice > Endure > Hyper Beam should KO most of the time with investment.

252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 240 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 147-174 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Beam vs. 240 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 246-289 (64.5 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A- Rank

Power Herb Electro shot can be bulked if you really want it to be.

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 330-390 (82.5 - 97.5%)

This means roost turn 1 > Substitute T2 can win because + 1 Flash Cannon can’t break sub, so Arch has to use Draco Meteor and lose a lot of SpA. However please note, that this bulk just avoids the protect 50/50 on t1 as if you predict the charge move with protect you can then freely sub as Corvi

No other Arch set can change this I believe, but I’m not using my full brain for this match-up, because I don’t want to.




Cresselia can CM > Moonlight, unless you run Metal Sound.

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 176-208 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 177-208 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery



Flash cannon has to be disabled after the protect on T1, if you run meteor beam, you can do that T2 for the win, or if not you can Rock Tomb > Electro, but it won’t KO until the third Attack, but you’re outspeeding now. Moonblast doesn’t 2HKO either so this is pretty safely Archaludon’s.

0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archaludon: 121-144 (37.6 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0- Atk Archaludon Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow: 68-82 (19.4 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales-Alola: 206-243 (59 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Custap with Tbolt coverage will struggle and lose, and Stamina AV’s Body Press won’t be able to get there vs Ninetales-A and lose as that gets encore disabled, I’m pretty sure.



Electro Shot doesn’t OHKO and Rock Tomb > Electro won’t matter. Get seeded.

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 213-251 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Draco doesn’t get the 2HKO and ursaluna can Facade > Headlong Rush

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna: 373-441 (80.3 - 95%) -- not a KO

Even Body Press > Boosted Body Press doesn’t get there when Ursaluna uses a normal move first.

0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna: 138-164 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

+1 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna: 208-246 (44.8 - 53%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

Maybe this finally is the match up where specs can shine. Unless Ursaluna runs the necessary speed where it can Rock Tomb / Bulldoze and then Headlong Rush.



Rock tomb or Meteor Beam from a Power herb always wins as it will either OHKO or drop speed and 2HKO. Draco is not enough to OHKO and Overheat will 2HKO. With custap shenanigans, that set might steal a win, but Volcarona has to predict it and Quiver Dance on 1 so Draco doesn’t 3HKO

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 198-234 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor over 3 turns vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 245-290 (78.7 - 93.2%) -- not a KO

B+ Rank

Kinda dependent whether or not there’s investment and whether or not their Annihilape has an AV or has like Drain Punch.

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Annihilape: 175-206 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Annihilape: 262-309 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is one of the rare-ish cases where only Power Herb wins regardless of techs on other sets, Metal Sound Custap doesn’t KO and Stamina AV obviously gets rolled by fighting STAB




AV doesn’t stop Electro Shot.

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 136 HP / 104+ SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 268-316 (71.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this was in the calc, don’t feel like changing it)

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 136 HP / 104+ SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 124-147 (33 - 39.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO

For Custap, Tbolt doesn’t work against AV and Stamina AV will have the same issue. Against non-AV both sets can pick up the 2HKO, but Azumarill just needs some boost for Superpower > Aqua jet to win against Custap not vs Stamina AV

Against a Stall set, Electro Shot OHKOs, and Custap needs Metal Sound.




To avoid the set flip of Haban and Weakness Policy, you can simply use Electro Shot > Flash Cannon or just Meteor Beam if you have it. For Custap, you can either run into the set flip or Metal Sound if you have it.

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Baxcalibur: 452-534 (104.1 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Baxcalibur: 278-330 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Baxcalibur: 416-492 (95.8 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 186-220 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 63-75 (19.6 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO

As for Stamina AV? Rock Tomb > Draco should take care of it if you pop the Weakness Policy. And if you don’t 2x Body Press should get there, but there’s a roll where Bax can win 30% of the time.

0- Atk Archaludon Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Baxcalibur: 78-94 (17.9 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO

+1 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Baxcalibur: 208-246 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO

+2 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Baxcalibur: 278-328 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 186-220 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 124-147 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. +2 240 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 33-39 (8.6 - 10.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever



Band Mold Breaker CC (has to be Jolly to outspeed) can pick up the win, while EQ has a roll.

252 Atk Choice Band Haxorus Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 342-404 (106.5 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Haxorus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 286-338 (89 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Scarf obviously doesn’t come close, and will drop to a Draco.

Vs Custap though, when Mold Breaker is telegraphed and band is predicted, Arch can endure T1 and then draco, but it’s very messy as Haxorus can be Haban, Scarf, or just not click CC.



Draco doesn’t drop Lando-T here, and therefore you need to Draco Twice and hope they’re not Jolly, as even Rock Tomb only barely makes a roll. Custap fixed this thanks to innate Speed Control, but AV Lando-T will just always body you.
252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-Therian: 247-292 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 0- Atk Archaludon Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 30-36 (9.4 - 11.2%) -- possible 9HKO



Electro shot go brrr. Even post CM or Take Heart if they have it, although you’ll have to likely charge a second Electro Shot to avoid some Rest shenanigans, it’s fine tho. Manaphy could theoretically bulk and speed for it, but that’s a lot of work.

Not going to post calcs because it’s a lot.
For Custap sets, Metal Sound is more important than Thunderbolt to actually drop Manaphy.

I'm stopping now before I get to B+, because my brain hurts and I'm tired of typing this post, and the match-ups are going to become a lot more straightforward and easy.

Edit: I'm slowly going through and will be adding B+ and lower.

Section 5: Final Thoughts

I think Archaludon is very good. It's got a lot of tools that will let it do really well and it benefits a lot from it's strong typing. However, it can still struggle with overall power, and can be benchmarked fairly easily. I still think it's rather versatile and can shift between sets to its advantage, without sacrificing too much in opportunity cost. It's definitely going to remain a significant metagame presence for the rest of the time it's legal in SV 1v1, but do I think it's broken? Probably not.

 

[g0ldenboy277]

Hello guys, i want to give my takes on meta and bans.

We should be less afraid of banning mons, and i will explain the 2 motives for this.

1. We got LOTS of mons to play around.

Its not like if we got rid of lets say, 1 mon per month (+ any mon that would eventually got broken) we would run out of options.

2. Changes are good for the game and for the players.

With more often changes, we will need to adapt more, and this is just equal to more fun. Different mons, different strategies. It would improve players knowledge. Its like patchs on most online games, changes to the meta always make the game better.

My reasoning to post this, is of course, based on Archaludon (but others pokemons too).

Archaludon is the strongest pokemon in the game the last 4 months. He got at least 4 different builds, and ALL of them are like high tier. Some time ago some of us wanted to ban Custap, you guys remember? Everyone in this time, said that this item was the real problem. From there to now, Archaludon doesnt even use Custap anymore (its the less popular build for him this last month).

To me, is that simple: if a pokemon is almost obligatory in a team,and the options to someone to counter him or just substitute him are VERY MUCH weaker, and will turn your team worse by much, this mon should go. Doesnt make much sense to take that time to do this.

Well, thats it, of course my opinion doesnt need to be right, and most can disagree.

Thanks for the time and regards for every 1v1 player out there.

 

[recti]

. We got LOTS of mons to play around.

Its not like if we got rid of lets say, 1 mon per month (+ any mon that would eventually got broken) we would run out of options

The thing is we don't want to ban mons that are completely fine and are checked by a sizable margin of pokemon if we do that the metagame will go out of hand and the power level will be rock bottom, back to study hall gaming now.

 

[fruan]

Pls consider action on oger, fire especially. Beating them reliably is the dumbest thing ever. Subseed and offensive and counter are all literally different pokemon.

Also unironically free species clause. Oras doesn't have it, and its a cool tier. I understand that this is not really a justification, but there is precedent for this, and so far no deleterious effects have been observed. 1v1 is pick one pokemon, its not like OU where x2 of the same pokemon can whittle down their counters. You either win or lose with what you have. Some might say "but I don't want to face x3 ambigous pokemon at preview." My response: if a pokemon is broken if you can bring more of them, then they are broken regardless of this fact. A large part of 1v1 is centered around making good teams, getting good previews, and the lack of species clause is a healthy way a player can express their teambuilding skill and game knowledge.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Pls consider action on oger, fire especially. Beating them reliably is the dumbest thing ever. Subseed and offensive and counter are all literally different pokemon.

Also unironically free species clause. Oras doesn't have it, and its a cool tier. I understand that this is not really a justification, but there is precedent for this, and so far no deleterious effects have been observed. 1v1 is pick one pokemon, its not like OU where x2 of the same pokemon can whittle down their counters. You either win or lose with what you have. Some might say "but I don't want to face x3 ambigous pokemon at preview." My response: if a pokemon is broken if you can bring more of them, then they are broken regardless of this fact. A large part of 1v1 is centered around making good teams, getting good previews, and the lack of species clause is a healthy way a player can express their teambuilding skill and game knowledge.

Actually? Good point. Maybe Species Clause is fine.

On the one hand, more of the same thing is just... oppressive as hell, and the set variety can mean 2 of any mon is, actually, unbeatable.

On the other hand... This makes niche hard counters even better -- which is good long term. It's not totally wrong to have double Archaludon (one for the main, one to beat the main) and still have both lose to that niche Mirror Coat Avalugg.

But even still, this does bolster everyone's capacity to be even more broken. I'm fine dealing with 1 Archaludon, and 1 Firepon, and 1 Iron Valiant, not 2 or 3 of these things. ORAS might have 2 Mega Charizard forms as possibly THE ONLY EXCUSE for having no species clause but even still, Mega Charizard Y is banned in ORAS
I'm not totally sure what to do about Species Clause, but I'd much rather have it to not be in the current age.

 

[Felucia]

"X pokemon is broken if you remove species clause" is not an excuse to keep species clause, changes in the meta will inevitably shift the meta and we shouldn't try to predict the future. In the event that a species clause removal makes a pokemon like archaludon too centralising then that's our cue to ban archaludon at that point. If we want a meta without species clause, we should curate that meta without species clause, rather than judging it by what the immediate post-removal meta would look like.

Edit: I'll post my general thoughts on meta somewhere mid-LT when we've had a bit of time post-arch suspect (regardless of result), but I appreciate that we're getting some discussion going and encourage people to continue sharing and debating their views on the meta

 

[BigChuchu]

I personally don't want 1v1 to become a clown meta where everyone runs 3 identical mons just because they can... I know it doesn't sound like a sensible argument in favour of keeping species clause, but neither do the anti-species clause arguments so far.

In any case, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Marshme1to]

I personally don't want 1v1 to become a clown meta

anyways I don’t entirely see the problem with removing species clause if something’s gonna be overwhelming bc there’s three of them then that should tell you more about the Mon then species clause itself on the other hand I also don’t see a need to remove it and I think we shouldn’t be making these changes just because we can and rather should be doing them out of necessity