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Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter clerica
- Start date
Hii
hiii
Hi there, I don't make posts often here but there's been something that's been bothering me so...
So I played a bo7 series for 1v1PL yesterday. I don't really build too much or anything, but I was trying to prep with the teams in my builder that felt the best to use for me because I had a lot going on in the past week, so I looked at my builder...
So uh. That's a good bit of Gouging Prim. I got told that in my 1v1PL game, I bought Gouging Fire four times, and each time I brought it, I won, which honestly is a bit scary. I bought five Primarina too but they did not win me every game I brought them in... food for thought.
So anyways I did not look at the entirety of that image the first time...
So why am I posting this?
Gouging Fire is really strong. Like... extremely strong for this meta. It's really bulky and can use Booster Energy to boost its Attack without any drawback. It's a Fire + Dragon type, which gives it good offensive typing, and it has a pretty monstrous stat spread of 105/115/121/65/93/91, which makes it a little bit slower than some Dragon-types, but it gets Dragon Dance, Scale Shot, and Flame Charge if it wants to boost its Speed. Attack Booster is obviously the go-to set here because while 115 Attack is nice, it's not Hoopa Unbound or Haxorus levels of Attack, but access to Dragon Dance fixes that pretty easily. Attack Booster stops it from using any other item, but it gives it an effective attack stat of about 155-165 based on your investment.
Of course, Gouging Fire's Attack Booster sets are what we first think of when we see it on preview or something, but what really sets it apart is the sheer versatility of other sets that it can run. I made a set for Gouging Fire that beats Ursaluna by using a combination of Substitute and Reversal to OHKO it when Gouging Fire gets low on HP. Finally got to see it get revealed (shoutouts Kala chasmah) and it did finally do its job. This set does not even need Liechi Berry to do that, so it still maintains matchups against things Volcanion (if it's not Sitrus or Choice Scarf) and stuff. Still has Flare Blitz / Outrage. All that. Loses to Iron Crown which kinda sucks but it's like trading out that matchup for another one. The reason I'm bringing this up is that Ursaluna is a pretty nice counter against other sets. Similar thing with Primarina, which I saw a Special Defense Booster set (cool set btw Nuxl) beat yesterday, but Clear Amulet is also another probably more well known way of doing this. Haxorus is good at beating it until it pulls out a Speed Booster set. Anyways, a lot of conventional answers to Gouging Fire just end up struggling. Low Kick Iron Valiant can be pretty easily beat with some sets with the correct EV spread. Yeah. It just techs a lot without losing all too much (except for against Choice Band Haxorus ig bc Speed Booster is not great imo) and is just generally strong with its best sets.
It's just pretty hard to go wrong with Gouging Fire, and it pairs super well with probably the next-best mon right now, being Primarina. I think Pecharunt and Regidrago still should see some action as well, but I think Gouging Fire is the best place to start.
I do want to invite people to share thoughts on Gouging Fire because one user shouting into the void doesn't do anything to start getting the tiering ball rolling, especially after council has been dissolved, but I hope that we can start looking at taking tiering action for 1v1, as this feels like a metagame that is somewhat annoyingly overcentralized around a select few Pokemon.
So I played a bo7 series for 1v1PL yesterday. I don't really build too much or anything, but I was trying to prep with the teams in my builder that felt the best to use for me because I had a lot going on in the past week, so I looked at my builder...
So uh. That's a good bit of Gouging Prim. I got told that in my 1v1PL game, I bought Gouging Fire four times, and each time I brought it, I won, which honestly is a bit scary. I bought five Primarina too but they did not win me every game I brought them in... food for thought.
So anyways I did not look at the entirety of that image the first time...
So why am I posting this?
Gouging Fire is really strong. Like... extremely strong for this meta. It's really bulky and can use Booster Energy to boost its Attack without any drawback. It's a Fire + Dragon type, which gives it good offensive typing, and it has a pretty monstrous stat spread of 105/115/121/65/93/91, which makes it a little bit slower than some Dragon-types, but it gets Dragon Dance, Scale Shot, and Flame Charge if it wants to boost its Speed. Attack Booster is obviously the go-to set here because while 115 Attack is nice, it's not Hoopa Unbound or Haxorus levels of Attack, but access to Dragon Dance fixes that pretty easily. Attack Booster stops it from using any other item, but it gives it an effective attack stat of about 155-165 based on your investment.
Of course, Gouging Fire's Attack Booster sets are what we first think of when we see it on preview or something, but what really sets it apart is the sheer versatility of other sets that it can run. I made a set for Gouging Fire that beats Ursaluna by using a combination of Substitute and Reversal to OHKO it when Gouging Fire gets low on HP. Finally got to see it get revealed (shoutouts Kala chasmah) and it did finally do its job. This set does not even need Liechi Berry to do that, so it still maintains matchups against things Volcanion (if it's not Sitrus or Choice Scarf) and stuff. Still has Flare Blitz / Outrage. All that. Loses to Iron Crown which kinda sucks but it's like trading out that matchup for another one. The reason I'm bringing this up is that Ursaluna is a pretty nice counter against other sets. Similar thing with Primarina, which I saw a Special Defense Booster set (cool set btw Nuxl) beat yesterday, but Clear Amulet is also another probably more well known way of doing this. Haxorus is good at beating it until it pulls out a Speed Booster set. Anyways, a lot of conventional answers to Gouging Fire just end up struggling. Low Kick Iron Valiant can be pretty easily beat with some sets with the correct EV spread. Yeah. It just techs a lot without losing all too much (except for against Choice Band Haxorus ig bc Speed Booster is not great imo) and is just generally strong with its best sets.
It's just pretty hard to go wrong with Gouging Fire, and it pairs super well with probably the next-best mon right now, being Primarina. I think Pecharunt and Regidrago still should see some action as well, but I think Gouging Fire is the best place to start.
I do want to invite people to share thoughts on Gouging Fire because one user shouting into the void doesn't do anything to start getting the tiering ball rolling, especially after council has been dissolved, but I hope that we can start looking at taking tiering action for 1v1, as this feels like a metagame that is somewhat annoyingly overcentralized around a select few Pokemon.
so like i was talking with clerica yesterday and i wanted to make a post of this kind cuz when i made a self scout i discovered this exact same train of thought.Hi there, I don't make posts often here but there's been something that's been bothering me so...
So I played a bo7 series for 1v1PL yesterday. I don't really build too much or anything, but I was trying to prep with the teams in my builder that felt the best to use for me because I had a lot going on in the past week, so I looked at my builder...
View attachment 660384
So uh. That's a good bit of Gouging Prim. I got told that in my 1v1PL game, I bought Gouging Fire four times, and each time I brought it, I won, which honestly is a bit scary. I bought five Primarina too but they did not win me every game I brought them in... food for thought.
View attachment 660387
So anyways I did not look at the entirety of that image the first time...
So why am I posting this?
Gouging Fire is really strong. Like... extremely strong for this meta. It's really bulky and can use Booster Energy to boost its Attack without any drawback. It's a Fire + Dragon type, which gives it good offensive typing, and it has a pretty monstrous stat spread of 105/115/121/65/93/91, which makes it a little bit slower than some Dragon-types, but it gets Dragon Dance, Scale Shot, and Flame Charge if it wants to boost its Speed. Attack Booster is obviously the go-to set here because while 115 Attack is nice, it's not Hoopa Unbound or Haxorus levels of Attack, but access to Dragon Dance fixes that pretty easily. Attack Booster stops it from using any other item, but it gives it an effective attack stat of about 155-165 based on your investment.
Of course, Gouging Fire's Attack Booster sets are what we first think of when we see it on preview or something, but what really sets it apart is the sheer versatility of other sets that it can run. I made a set for Gouging Fire that beats Ursaluna by using a combination of Substitute and Reversal to OHKO it when Gouging Fire gets low on HP. Finally got to see it get revealed (shoutouts Kala chasmah) and it did finally do its job. This set does not even need Liechi Berry to do that, so it still maintains matchups against things Volcanion (if it's not Sitrus or Choice Scarf) and stuff. Still has Flare Blitz / Outrage. All that. Loses to Iron Crown which kinda sucks but it's like trading out that matchup for another one. The reason I'm bringing this up is that Ursaluna is a pretty nice counter against other sets. Similar thing with Primarina, which I saw a Special Defense Booster set (cool set btw Nuxl) beat yesterday, but Clear Amulet is also another probably more well known way of doing this. Haxorus is good at beating it until it pulls out a Speed Booster set. Anyways, a lot of conventional answers to Gouging Fire just end up struggling. Low Kick Iron Valiant can be pretty easily beat with some sets with the correct EV spread. Yeah. It just techs a lot without losing all too much (except for against Choice Band Haxorus ig bc Speed Booster is not great imo) and is just generally strong with its best sets.
It's just pretty hard to go wrong with Gouging Fire, and it pairs super well with probably the next-best mon right now, being Primarina. I think Pecharunt and Regidrago still should see some action as well, but I think Gouging Fire is the best place to start.
I do want to invite people to share thoughts on Gouging Fire because one user shouting into the void doesn't do anything to start getting the tiering ball rolling, especially after council has been dissolved, but I hope that we can start looking at taking tiering action for 1v1, as this feels like a metagame that is somewhat annoyingly overcentralized around a select few Pokemon.
yeah i used a lot of gouging prim this guy is kinda brokey.
when it comes to actual counters to gouging fire there's very little to talk about, haxorus? haban, try to hit 4 scale shots cuz if you outrage you get burnt by bulwark, ursaluna? fricking subversal if you wanna, primarina? spdef booster noble roar i saw eli use that against drip and it fricking won. the point is that the mon is pretty damn versatile and can flip its matchups way better than we thought at first, and it was thanks to PL that we began instigating on these options.
i'm in favor of a gouging fire suspect but like honestly who isn't atp, everyone wants to see what people think about this guy, it might be too versatile for its own good, it might not be, time will tell, but imo it's not an iron valiant case where "oh it can beat like every non-poison or fairy with the right set" no, this guy can tech it all and we've seen it in action, and sure you can run a dedicated counter but that's just one mon, when you wanna see you might just get 3-0d by the other, you wanna run like chople ursa? prim is right there ready to hydro cannon your bear. wanna run haban walking wake? primstare. this is also what makes it so good to pair it with prim. prim is just so damn good at covering its weaknesses to dragon, ground and rock, while gouging can deal with prim's grass-types on top of some electric- and poison-types like raging bolt and pecharunt if you run eq. very little actually counters goug-prim and the reason behind this is goug's versatility and prim's capabilities.
tl;dr suspect gouging it can tech a lot of mons.
Even without a council there can still be tiering action in 1v1, but we do need to hear everyone's voice now more than ever. UM leadership and I don't have the full extent of knowledge necessary to make informed decisions about SV tiering, so we'll be relying on the community to help guide us. With that said, if there's sufficient support for tiering action, UM leadership and I will work out a way to still make it happen.
I may post my own thoughts on
later but they haven't changed a whole lot from last time I talked about it so I'm not sure if I have much to add
So I don't actually have too many new things to bring up with Gouging Fire, I will say that I think Clear Amulet is really nice for Prim over Spdef Booster to avoid Icy Wind Encore but other than that, yeah its pretty broken, I 100% support a suspect. I wanted to show my support for this but I also wanted to take this opportunity to talk about a few other problematic mons.
This dude is so versatile for having such few options. It can beat almost anything, and it just feels awful to play against. Offensive sets also need more exploration, for instance I made this set early on in PL which can turn a lot of its spookier matchups on their heads all at once. Something to keep an eye on as we go on.Pecharunt @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 216 HP / 252 SpA / 40 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Malignant Chain
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot
- Recover / Whatever you really only need the first three moves
Nasty Plot helps against Steels, you can also run Acid Spray (probably as the last move). Iirc you want the special attack, it tanks Specs PZ while optimizing HP, its a solid set to beat so many things that normally beat it.
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 216 HP / 252 SpA / 40 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Malignant Chain
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot
- Recover / Whatever you really only need the first three moves
Nasty Plot helps against Steels, you can also run Acid Spray (probably as the last move). Iirc you want the special attack, it tanks Specs PZ while optimizing HP, its a solid set to beat so many things that normally beat it.
I'm just going to link my previous post on this dude, that post covers most of my thoughts on this broken little dude. Its just so bulky while being able to be so strong due to its ability, I would love a retest at some later point.
This dude has been broken since Scream Tail got banned, no clue how its lasted for this long. I've been saying this whole time people just need to experiment more with it, and while I've mainly touched offensive sets, there have been so much success with Low Kick Encore Disable. Encore Disable sets just force so many 50/50s, and Valiant can adapt to fit any meta. Keep an eye on this dude, and keep experimenting and pushing this mon further.I might do another post at a later point to say more, especially if people have questions I'm down to talk more about these dudes.
fast taunt
wp, spatk booster, specs
plot t1 loses to scarf, sball t1 loses to wp
acid draco
pecha autowins anyways?
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 216 HP / 40 SpD Pecharunt: 210-248 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
sd
metal sound, specs, mirror coat
metal sound
+2 252+ SpA Pecharunt Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 294-346 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
What steels are you talking about? What does this set actually beat that other sets don't? I am very confused.
Gouging is fine, if you build around different mons that aren't gouging prim hoodra corv oger pecha ursa etc then you will make teams that can beat gouging very easily. The only reason people aren't building with different mons is because a certain regi forces you to run a very specific counter on all of your teams, thus making your team have to 50-50 every match versus meta teams unless you're cteaming. (Compare rtm's PL run vs Bo's PL run, if u dont cteam or u dont run boring cores u go negative)
I'm utterly uniformed on the current meta, and I have no stake in this since I don't play 1v1. However, with all the changes happening in 1v1 tier, things might matter for the tier.
With that in mind, could someone explain to ignorant people like me what has fundamentally changed about Gouging Fire itself since the previous discussions about the pokemon concluded it was a healthy meta force? I haven't watched PL or LT or Swiss, so I don't actually know. Based on the discussion here, a few more techs have become apparent. However, I remember looking at Gouging Fire's ability to tech back in March and concluding it just wasn't helpful: each change in its moveset lost more matchups than it gained. For instance, I had a substitute-reversal set in my builder, but never used it. Reversal seemed like too narrow a tech because it didn't help against anything other than regular Ursaluna.
It may be that in the current meta, the ability to tech one or two matchups, even at the cost of several others is well worth it. However, I would question whether that means Gouging Fire is problematic or if that means the meta has problems, which are two very different things. It could be, of course, that new techs and a rise in defensive Gouging Fires do actually make it a problematic pokemon; however, as a now-outsider, that's not immediately apparent.
With that in mind, could someone explain to ignorant people like me what has fundamentally changed about Gouging Fire itself since the previous discussions about the pokemon concluded it was a healthy meta force? I haven't watched PL or LT or Swiss, so I don't actually know. Based on the discussion here, a few more techs have become apparent. However, I remember looking at Gouging Fire's ability to tech back in March and concluding it just wasn't helpful: each change in its moveset lost more matchups than it gained. For instance, I had a substitute-reversal set in my builder, but never used it. Reversal seemed like too narrow a tech because it didn't help against anything other than regular Ursaluna.
It may be that in the current meta, the ability to tech one or two matchups, even at the cost of several others is well worth it. However, I would question whether that means Gouging Fire is problematic or if that means the meta has problems, which are two very different things. It could be, of course, that new techs and a rise in defensive Gouging Fires do actually make it a problematic pokemon; however, as a now-outsider, that's not immediately apparent.
Hearthflame has been banned for a little bit now, and with it gone, Gouging Fire no longer is constricted to running very specific sets for it. Wellspring is still around, and can do things with Charm, but Gouging Fire has ways around it (Amulet, Substitute 50/50s, etc.). Basically now Gouging Fire has much more freedom to run all kinds of different sets. The last move on Attack Booster sets can be so many different things, Clear Amulet Noble Roar sets can beat a lot of normal checks like Primarina, and there's still so much exploration to be done with other items. Also, Gouging Fire just conceptually is an extremely strong mon, with amazing bulk, great typing which allows it to hit most of the meta hard with just its STABs, and while its Speed and Attack are a tiny bit low compared to other top tiers, Dragon Dance and its bulk makes up for it, along with the option of Attack Booster.
Goug is rly strong but I dont think its the most problematic mon in the tier and banning it seems like it wouldnt really help(a certain ogerpon fellow would prob be banworthy after that) + opportunity cost for not running atk booster is like horrendous
atk booster gives you:
raging bolt(and other bulky dragons)
cress(slight 50/50 but if u run fast u just kinda defeat reflect)
random spatkers like volcanion, sylv(is terrible but a somewhat rel mu anyways)
urshifu odds(if u run bswipe)
some iron val
etc.
but dont worry! you can drop all of these mus and more to um defeat primarina!!
Honestly the other gouging sets r like really really situational and the bigger problem is just like evs + 4th moveslot but like this shit literally a modern day mega + evs wise generally u want bulky goug which means stuff like pz or hax beat u p consistently
That aside I think the more problematic mon in the tier is regidrago
It
1. Offers genuinely nothing in the tier(doesnt keep anyone in check really at all)
2. Forces you to run fairies(they are like all garbage besides prim and iron val) or steels(viables r like corvi icrown sometimes metagross)
3. a lot of stronger players dont even like bringing it despite it being a S- mon b/c it turns previews into coinflips + its sets dont even do that much
Now you might say oh dragos fine in ss(debatably altho i dont play ss so cant say much here) though but the difference is ss has real fairies(all tapus r viable, prim, sylv, aroma, garde, etc) while sv has ival and prim(diancie is oki but generally every other fairy sucks giga ass and is rarely something youd want to run)
Banning drago would free up slots to check gouging more freely so ppl dont just run prim as their check -> its now much easier to afford a slot to smth like landot, manaphy ,tusk, orb ursa, balloon pecha, etc to solidly beat gouging b/c the fairies n steels that r forced onto teams bc of drago make it so gouging just kinda 2-1s most teams by default
atk booster gives you:
raging bolt(and other bulky dragons)
cress(slight 50/50 but if u run fast u just kinda defeat reflect)
random spatkers like volcanion, sylv(is terrible but a somewhat rel mu anyways)
urshifu odds(if u run bswipe)
some iron val
etc.
but dont worry! you can drop all of these mus and more to um defeat primarina!!
Honestly the other gouging sets r like really really situational and the bigger problem is just like evs + 4th moveslot but like this shit literally a modern day mega + evs wise generally u want bulky goug which means stuff like pz or hax beat u p consistently
That aside I think the more problematic mon in the tier is regidrago
It
1. Offers genuinely nothing in the tier(doesnt keep anyone in check really at all)
2. Forces you to run fairies(they are like all garbage besides prim and iron val) or steels(viables r like corvi icrown sometimes metagross)
3. a lot of stronger players dont even like bringing it despite it being a S- mon b/c it turns previews into coinflips + its sets dont even do that much
Now you might say oh dragos fine in ss(debatably altho i dont play ss so cant say much here) though but the difference is ss has real fairies(all tapus r viable, prim, sylv, aroma, garde, etc) while sv has ival and prim(diancie is oki but generally every other fairy sucks giga ass and is rarely something youd want to run)
Banning drago would free up slots to check gouging more freely so ppl dont just run prim as their check -> its now much easier to afford a slot to smth like landot, manaphy ,tusk, orb ursa, balloon pecha, etc to solidly beat gouging b/c the fairies n steels that r forced onto teams bc of drago make it so gouging just kinda 2-1s most teams by default
Gouging Fire is now banned from 1v1 We'll be allowing the metagame to stabilise for a few weeks before looking into potential further tiering action if the need is (still) there. During this time, any discussion about the state of the metagame and helping us figure out how to navigate a post-gouging world is greatly encouraged and appreciated.
Gouging Fire will remain legal in the ongoing 1v1 Masters tournament for the duration of this week.
yay
havent touched this format in a sec but scrolling through recent posts i see that prim is a prominent mon, less so following the gouging ban but still a force to be reckoned with nonetheless. knowing this i present to you the stupidest set ever:
air balloon can be replaced w booster energy for spd boost but ab makes it more versatile than just a prim check, allowing it to take on things like hands and donphan. literally the whole point of the set is just. click toxic and stall. not too deep lol. just thought it was funny :p
edit: loses to specs, beats custap unless they click hydro cannon instead of hv/uproar
lol (Iron Moth) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Morning Sun
- Protect
- Substitute
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Morning Sun
- Protect
- Substitute
air balloon can be replaced w booster energy for spd boost but ab makes it more versatile than just a prim check, allowing it to take on things like hands and donphan. literally the whole point of the set is just. click toxic and stall. not too deep lol. just thought it was funny :p
edit: loses to specs, beats custap unless they click hydro cannon instead of hv/uproar
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first of all hi this is my new account. second of all u should invest in spe over spd. the evs kinda suck tbh but yeah
Welp, other one got taken down, so I'll take a second stab at this with actual criticism.
First, I don't see this beating iron hands. Even one with barely any investment is doing 60-70% minimum with supercell slam (t1 fake out into either supercell or eq), which gives no chance to morning sun with eq spam.
Second, I don't see this beating stuff that air balloon offensive moth and/or air balloon salazzle wouldn't. Moth with protect already beats prim very comfortably by sludge waving into prot, salazzle can pull the exact same strat but faster and against steels/poisons.
Also, literally no reason whatsoever for spA investment. Just put it in def or speed.
I've talked about Regidrago before, many others have talked about Drago, but this stupid orb thing needs to go. Now there are three main things a Pokemon or anything else can be to be considered banworthy. I'll cover them here.
Is Regidrago Uncompetitive: No
Starting out with the easiest one, besides some matchups coming down to Scale Shot hits, Regidrago isn't uncompetitive. Not much else to say about this point.
Is Regidrago Unhealthy: Yes
Now you can debate this but Regidrago's strain on the metagame is something that has been talked about so much. As you know, the only answers to Regidrago are Fairies, a few steels (Iron Crown, Metagross, Registeel, Corv for the most part), and a couple misc. mons like Unnerve Haxorus, Lando-T with a very specific set, and Ursaluna with a very specific set. So basically it forces a Dragon Fairy Steel metagame, and while these types would still be strong without Drago, it is extremely difficult to build teams without them due to it. This also contributes to Pokemon like Hearthflame and Gouging's success (not that they'd be bad without Drago), since they naturally thrive when you're forced to have a Steel or Fairy on 95% of teams.
Is Regidrago Broken: Arguably Yes
Now this ultimately depends on your definition of broken. I believe it is broken since it just beats too much, but many consider it not broken since Fairies shut it down so hard. I will say we've had Pokemon that were deemed broken despite hard losing to a type (Genesect comes to mind), and the fact that the vast majority of non fairy answers have to run very specific sets to be reliable really shows the hold Drago has on the metagame.
I hope we get a Regidrago suspect, as was previously promised, since the community has shown that it is wanted. Thank you.
Murm out
I want to make sure we have ample time to discuss Regidrago before the retest comes along. I'll be honest, there isn't too much I have to say differently from my original post, which if you're interested I recommend reading. With Gouging Fire and Ogerpon-Hearthflame gone, Steels are much better and more Fairies like Sylveon are much easier to slot on a team. This does not fundimentally change how Regidrago functions. No matter what the meta looks like, Regidrago will always be a fundimentally unhealthy Pokemon. Regidrago is a situationally broken Pokemon, I definitely thought it was broken when my original post was written, right now its definitely more debateable, with more Steels and Fairies being around but also Prim + Drago just beats so much. Brokenness isn't the primary reason to ban Regidrago though, I believe this mon is just a fundimentally unhealthy presence that makes the tier significantly worse to build and play. While Steels and Fairies will still be common even after a Drago ban, you will no longer be absolutely forced to run one on every single team.
+1 to this, gouging fire being gone does not make regidrago any healthier in the tier. to echo previous sentiments in the thread dragos vice grip on the builder mostly serves to break other mons (hearthflame/gouging) that prey on the mandatory fairys/steels on every team and whose true counters are difficult to reliably slot. there were no shortages of strong grounds that could 100-0 gouging but you weren't building with them because team structures around them were either extremely linear/solved already (lando/bolt/corv & ursa/bolt/corv) or they didn't synergize well with the mandatory fairy/steel partner drago forced. on top of that drago's impact in game is not one that rewards the more skilled player. it is impossible to lure and its presence on preview forces the exact same coinflip regardless of whatever else was loaded. you can argue that winning 50/50s is basically all there is to skill expression through gameplay in 1v1 but having the same one forced upon you up to 6 times in a series is the equivalent of telling your opponent that you two will both bash your heads into a brick wall 6 times and whoever goes unconscious first loses. final point to address the criticisms of resuspecting drago until we get the result we want, the last drago suspect occurred during a time of peak inactivity, failed because of 2 last minute dnb voters entering through poorly hosted surprise suspect tours (one of whom changed their mind after gaining more experience in the tier) and ended an entire day before the scheduled deadline. on the post-pl survey, drago scored only slightly less than gouging, a mon that was banned with a 22-5 vote, 18-3 at the time of decision. it's earned the right to be suspected again and i wholeheartedly believe the tier will be better without it.
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- Raw power: Drago's huge damage output vs a neutral target is not a ban argument on its own (Porygon-Z's is higher after all), but just to put it in perspective, it hits harder than Slaking:
Code:
252 SpA Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew*: 306-361 (89.7 - 105.8%)
252 Atk Slaking Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew*: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%)
252 Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew*: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%)
252 Atk Slaking Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew*: 229-270 (67.1 - 79.1%)- Versatility: its movepool is shallow in terms of typing, but it has access to fantastic utility tools such as Breaking Swipe, Scale Shot, Dragon Dance.
- Unpredictability: Drago has identical Atk and SpA stats, and its ability affects moves in both categories, which means it's difficult to bulk unless you stick to the boring Fairy/Steel core. I'm not saying it is impossible to build against (believe me, building funny Drago counters is one of my hobbies) but you'll end up with a moveset too whacky to be viable in other matchups. Its defensive stats are also identical and the EV spreads are very different from one set to another.
- Anti-creativity: for those of you who are still in official tournaments, I encourage you to agree on a "gentleman no Drago", and see if you find the building experience more fun or not.
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Adding in my opinion, Regidrago is just so unfair sometimes, as well as just being unhealthy for the tier as a whole, making a team without something to handle it much more difficult to pilot. The mix ups add on to this issue, so you never know if your SpDef Registeel is going to beat it until you get into battle, to later find out that the opposing Regidrago has EQ.
I think Regidrago is in contention for being suspect tested, but not noe, especially because Gouging Fire has just been banned. It is something the community should look into, and the opinions above I agree with totally.
I think Regidrago is in contention for being suspect tested, but not noe, especially because Gouging Fire has just been banned. It is something the community should look into, and the opinions above I agree with totally.
Here's the thing though, there's nothing stopping us from suspect testing Regidrago right now. OU actually did their Gouging Fire suspect test just a few days before us, and they're already suspecting Kyurem. If something's broken, it's just usually best to fix it.
That aside, I also think Regidrago is as good now as it used to be when Gouging Fire was still around. Even though it had pretty decent ways to deal with both Ogerpon-H and Gouging Fire when they were both in the tier, and even though the fact that these mons being gone make it easier to use Pokemon like Sylveon, it makes it harder to use some other Fairy-types, like Diancie, and has an overall good matchup into things like Hoopa-U.
Anyways, I really don't know how Regidrago survived this wrong despite being so oppressive in the builder and making previews absolutely terrible to navigate for players, and it would really be nice to see it gone.
I would also like to voice my support for a Drago suspect/ban. The main argument I've seen against a ban is that in-game Drago often faces a 1-2 situation - but this isn't why Drago is an unhealthy force in the metagame. Drago is unhealthy in the teambuilder, as it often forces a solid check to all of its sets (Scarf, Haban, AV, Band, Specs, Etc.) This "solid check" often ends up predictably being a fairy or steel type, leading to unhealthy sterilisation of the metagame. Blanched also made a good point about Drago being impossible to lure - It would require Haban Berry, but Specs can often blast past that.
In know I argued and voted against a Drago ban previously - I now realise I was mistaken (I'm the person Blanched is talking about). After learning how to properly build, I've realised how unhealthy Drago is in the current metagame. Sorry about that.
In know I argued and voted against a Drago ban previously - I now realise I was mistaken (I'm the person Blanched is talking about). After learning how to properly build, I've realised how unhealthy Drago is in the current metagame. Sorry about that.
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Mew is banned can you show calcs vs legal pokemon that are currently common in the meta? Calcs vs mons that are supposed to counter drago would be a lot more helpful to your argument, rather than showing it does a lot of damage.
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I agree with delemon and delemon above and cannot argue better than them, but I'll just put these points on the table:
Brokenness: Drago's raw power is lower than that of a mon which would likely be quickbanned.
*While Zacian has no reason to run specs Moonblast, I chose Moonblast for illustration purposes, and also that's what Zacian would probably run if ____ could load it.
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252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 554-652 (162.4 - 191.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 504-594 (147.8 - 174.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
pz hits harder, comparing damage is pointless, yeah drago hits hard but main problem is stronghold it has on creativity in the builder
Thank you!
anws I believe drago needs to be suspected at the minimum(my fault ill vote ban next time) its clearly oppressive in the builder regardless of steels and fairies being in a better state post gouging ban so now ppl are more likely to just run dfs so they dont get auto 2-1
Brokenness: Drago's raw power is lower than that of a mon which would likely be quickbanned.
Code:
252+ Atk Choice Band Regidrago Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 266-314 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 244 Def Regidrago: 644-762 (106.6 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Regidrago Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 238-282 (73.2 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zacian Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Regidrago: 530-626 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO*While Zacian has no reason to run specs Moonblast, I chose Moonblast for illustration purposes, and also that's what Zacian would probably run if ____ could load it.
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252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 554-652 (162.4 - 191.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 504-594 (147.8 - 174.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
pz hits harder, comparing damage is pointless, yeah drago hits hard but main problem is stronghold it has on creativity in the builder
Thank you!
anws I believe drago needs to be suspected at the minimum(my fault ill vote ban next time) its clearly oppressive in the builder regardless of steels and fairies being in a better state post gouging ban so now ppl are more likely to just run dfs so they dont get auto 2-1
Regidrago isn't broken, but it creates a boring metagame.
Its ability to beat half of the meta has already been proven at length so I wont go into it. When you see drago, you click a fairy/steel and you win. Simple, right?
That's the problem.
Its presence forces you to bring a check every game, but those counters always boil down to a fairy or steel, likely both so you don't get 2-1'd. Constant preview 50/50s are not fundamentally broken, but they're fundamentally boring. This forces DDS, DFS, DFF combinations which get really tiring once you face/build/click into the 90th one. Players ultimately stop bringing drago because they don't want to play the same preview coinflip every time.
SV just doesn't have as many good Drago checks as SS did, so we are left with a handful of top tiers
that will be spammed over and over again because regidrago can pop up and wipe the other half of your preview. It doesn't make building a nightmare, it makes building a boring chore (Non fairy/steels that can beat drago
dont beat all sets or are B ranked 
).
Building and playing are both going to be miserable when drago's presence requires you to bring one of the 6 viable checks or die, and then navigate a 50/50 on preview.
Obviously you have to bring a counter for an S tier mon, but the issue is that Drago counters aren't mons, they are types. Every other top tier has a diverse matchup spread, its just drago that beats half the metagame but loses to anything with a fairy type.
There's never a point to tiering towards pure theoretical competitiveness. Yeah, on paper drago is fine because you bring one of its counters and beat it always, but in practise this mon is not fun to play with, as subjective as that word is. This mon's isn't just boring for seasoned players, it's also unfun for new players that want to get into this metagame.
TL;DR: This mon restricts creativity in teambuilding, has homogenous counters and makes this metagame boring. When the inevitable suspect comes, please vote ban so we can enjoy playing the 1 versus 1 metagame on play.pokemonshowdown.com .
Its ability to beat half of the meta has already been proven at length so I wont go into it. When you see drago, you click a fairy/steel and you win. Simple, right?
That's the problem.
Its presence forces you to bring a check every game, but those counters always boil down to a fairy or steel, likely both so you don't get 2-1'd. Constant preview 50/50s are not fundamentally broken, but they're fundamentally boring. This forces DDS, DFS, DFF combinations which get really tiring once you face/build/click into the 90th one. Players ultimately stop bringing drago because they don't want to play the same preview coinflip every time.
SV just doesn't have as many good Drago checks as SS did, so we are left with a handful of top tiers
that will be spammed over and over again because regidrago can pop up and wipe the other half of your preview. It doesn't make building a nightmare, it makes building a boring chore (Non fairy/steels that can beat drago
).Building and playing are both going to be miserable when drago's presence requires you to bring one of the 6 viable checks or die, and then navigate a 50/50 on preview.
Obviously you have to bring a counter for an S tier mon, but the issue is that Drago counters aren't mons, they are types. Every other top tier has a diverse matchup spread, its just drago that beats half the metagame but loses to anything with a fairy type.
There's never a point to tiering towards pure theoretical competitiveness. Yeah, on paper drago is fine because you bring one of its counters and beat it always, but in practise this mon is not fun to play with, as subjective as that word is. This mon's isn't just boring for seasoned players, it's also unfun for new players that want to get into this metagame.
TL;DR: This mon restricts creativity in teambuilding, has homogenous counters and makes this metagame boring. When the inevitable suspect comes, please vote ban so we can enjoy playing the 1 versus 1 metagame on play.pokemonshowdown.com .