Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
havent touched this format in a sec but scrolling through recent posts i see that prim is a prominent mon, less so following the gouging ban but still a force to be reckoned with nonetheless. knowing this i present to you the stupidest set ever:
lol (Iron Moth) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Morning Sun
- Protect
- Substitute
air balloon can be replaced w booster energy for spd boost but ab makes it more versatile than just a prim check, allowing it to take on things like hands and donphan. literally the whole point of the set is just. click toxic and stall. not too deep lol. just thought it was funny :p
edit: loses to specs, beats custap unless they click hydro cannon instead of hv/uproar
havent touched this format in a sec but scrolling through recent posts i see that prim is a prominent mon, less so following the gouging ban but still a force to be reckoned with nonetheless. knowing this i present to you the stupidest set ever:
lol (Iron Moth) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Morning Sun
- Protect
- Substitute
air balloon can be replaced w booster energy for spd boost but ab makes it more versatile than just a prim check, allowing it to take on things like hands and donphan. literally the whole point of the set is just. click toxic and stall. not too deep lol. just thought it was funny :p
edit: loses to specs, beats custap unless they click hydro cannon instead of hv/uproar
havent touched this format in a sec but scrolling through recent posts i see that prim is a prominent mon, less so following the gouging ban but still a force to be reckoned with nonetheless. knowing this i present to you the stupidest set ever:
lol (Iron Moth) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Morning Sun
- Protect
- Substitute
air balloon can be replaced w booster energy for spd boost but ab makes it more versatile than just a prim check, allowing it to take on things like hands and donphan. literally the whole point of the set is just. click toxic and stall. not too deep lol. just thought it was funny :p
edit: loses to specs, beats custap unless they click hydro cannon instead of hv/uproar
Welp, other one got taken down, so I'll take a second stab at this with actual criticism.
First, I don't see this beating iron hands. Even one with barely any investment is doing 60-70% minimum with supercell slam (t1 fake out into either supercell or eq), which gives no chance to morning sun with eq spam.
Second, I don't see this beating stuff that air balloon offensive moth and/or air balloon salazzle wouldn't. Moth with protect already beats prim very comfortably by sludge waving into prot, salazzle can pull the exact same strat but faster and against steels/poisons.
Also, literally no reason whatsoever for spA investment. Just put it in def or speed.
I've talked about Regidrago before, many others have talked about Drago, but this stupid orb thing needs to go. Now there are three main things a Pokemon or anything else can be to be considered banworthy. I'll cover them here.
Is Regidrago Uncompetitive: No
Starting out with the easiest one, besides some matchups coming down to Scale Shot hits, Regidrago isn't uncompetitive. Not much else to say about this point.
Is Regidrago Unhealthy: Yes
Now you can debate this but Regidrago's strain on the metagame is something that has been talked about so much. As you know, the only answers to Regidrago are Fairies, a few steels (Iron Crown, Metagross, Registeel, Corv for the most part), and a couple misc. mons like Unnerve Haxorus, Lando-T with a very specific set, and Ursaluna with a very specific set. So basically it forces a Dragon Fairy Steel metagame, and while these types would still be strong without Drago, it is extremely difficult to build teams without them due to it. This also contributes to Pokemon like Hearthflame and Gouging's success (not that they'd be bad without Drago), since they naturally thrive when you're forced to have a Steel or Fairy on 95% of teams.
Is Regidrago Broken: Arguably Yes
Now this ultimately depends on your definition of broken. I believe it is broken since it just beats too much, but many consider it not broken since Fairies shut it down so hard. I will say we've had Pokemon that were deemed broken despite hard losing to a type (Genesect comes to mind), and the fact that the vast majority of non fairy answers have to run very specific sets to be reliable really shows the hold Drago has on the metagame.
I hope we get a Regidrago suspect, as was previously promised, since the community has shown that it is wanted. Thank you.
I want to make sure we have ample time to discuss Regidrago before the retest comes along. I'll be honest, there isn't too much I have to say differently from my original post, which if you're interested I recommend reading. With Gouging Fire and Ogerpon-Hearthflame gone, Steels are much better and more Fairies like Sylveon are much easier to slot on a team. This does not fundimentally change how Regidrago functions. No matter what the meta looks like, Regidrago will always be a fundimentally unhealthy Pokemon. Regidrago is a situationally broken Pokemon, I definitely thought it was broken when my original post was written, right now its definitely more debateable, with more Steels and Fairies being around but also Prim + Drago just beats so much. Brokenness isn't the primary reason to ban Regidrago though, I believe this mon is just a fundimentally unhealthy presence that makes the tier significantly worse to build and play. While Steels and Fairies will still be common even after a Drago ban, you will no longer be absolutely forced to run one on every single team.
I want to make sure we have ample time to discuss Regidrago before the retest comes along. I'll be honest, there isn't too much I have to say differently from my original post, which if you're interested I recommend reading. With Gouging Fire and Ogerpon-Hearthflame gone, Steels are much better and more Fairies like Sylveon are much easier to slot on a team. This does not fundimentally change how Regidrago functions. No matter what the meta looks like, Regidrago will always be a fundimentally unhealthy Pokemon. Regidrago is a situationally broken Pokemon, I definitely thought it was broken when my original post was written, right now its definitely more debateable, with more Steels and Fairies being around but also Prim + Drago just beats so much. Brokenness isn't the primary reason to ban Regidrago though, I believe this mon is just a fundimentally unhealthy presence that makes the tier significantly worse to build and play. While Steels and Fairies will still be common even after a Drago ban, you will no longer be absolutely forced to run one on every single team.
+1 to this, gouging fire being gone does not make regidrago any healthier in the tier. to echo previous sentiments in the thread dragos vice grip on the builder mostly serves to break other mons (hearthflame/gouging) that prey on the mandatory fairys/steels on every team and whose true counters are difficult to reliably slot. there were no shortages of strong grounds that could 100-0 gouging but you weren't building with them because team structures around them were either extremely linear/solved already (lando/bolt/corv & ursa/bolt/corv) or they didn't synergize well with the mandatory fairy/steel partner drago forced. on top of that drago's impact in game is not one that rewards the more skilled player. it is impossible to lure and its presence on preview forces the exact same coinflip regardless of whatever else was loaded. you can argue that winning 50/50s is basically all there is to skill expression through gameplay in 1v1 but having the same one forced upon you up to 6 times in a series is the equivalent of telling your opponent that you two will both bash your heads into a brick wall 6 times and whoever goes unconscious first loses. final point to address the criticisms of resuspecting drago until we get the result we want, the last drago suspect occurred during a time of peak inactivity, failed because of 2 last minute dnb voters entering through poorly hosted surprise suspect tours (one of whom changed their mind after gaining more experience in the tier) and ended an entire day before the scheduled deadline. on the post-pl survey, drago scored only slightly less than gouging, a mon that was banned with a 22-5 vote, 18-3 at the time of decision. it's earned the right to be suspected again and i wholeheartedly believe the tier will be better without it.
Raw power: Drago's huge damage output vs a neutral target is not a ban argument on its own (Porygon-Z's is higher after all), but just to put it in perspective, it hits harder than Slaking:
Code:
252 SpA Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew*: 306-361 (89.7 - 105.8%)
252 Atk Slaking Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew*: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%)
252 Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew*: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%)
252 Atk Slaking Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew*: 229-270 (67.1 - 79.1%)
*or Manaphy, or Shaymin, or whatever neutral target with 100 base stats is normally used as a benchmark for damage comparison.
Versatility: its movepool is shallow in terms of typing, but it has access to fantastic utility tools such as Breaking Swipe, Scale Shot, Dragon Dance.
Unpredictability: Drago has identical Atk and SpA stats, and its ability affects moves in both categories, which means it's difficult to bulk unless you stick to the boring Fairy/Steel core. I'm not saying it is impossible to build against (believe me, building funny Drago counters is one of my hobbies) but you'll end up with a moveset too whacky to be viable in other matchups. Its defensive stats are also identical and the EV spreads are very different from one set to another.
Anti-creativity: for those of you who are still in official tournaments, I encourage you to agree on a "gentleman no Drago", and see if you find the building experience more fun or not.
Adding in my opinion, Regidrago is just so unfair sometimes, as well as just being unhealthy for the tier as a whole, making a team without something to handle it much more difficult to pilot. The mix ups add on to this issue, so you never know if your SpDef Registeel is going to beat it until you get into battle, to later find out that the opposing Regidrago has EQ.
I think Regidrago is in contention for being suspect tested, but not noe, especially because Gouging Fire has just been banned. It is something the community should look into, and the opinions above I agree with totally.
I think Regidrago is in contention for being suspect tested, but not noe, especially because Gouging Fire has just been banned. It is something the community should look into, and the opinions above I agree with totally.
Here's the thing though, there's nothing stopping us from suspect testing Regidrago right now. OU actually did their Gouging Fire suspect test just a few days before us, and they're already suspecting Kyurem. If something's broken, it's just usually best to fix it.
That aside, I also think Regidrago is as good now as it used to be when Gouging Fire was still around. Even though it had pretty decent ways to deal with both Ogerpon-H and Gouging Fire when they were both in the tier, and even though the fact that these mons being gone make it easier to use Pokemon like Sylveon, it makes it harder to use some other Fairy-types, like Diancie, and has an overall good matchup into things like Hoopa-U.
Anyways, I really don't know how Regidrago survived this wrong despite being so oppressive in the builder and making previews absolutely terrible to navigate for players, and it would really be nice to see it gone.
I would also like to voice my support for a Drago suspect/ban. The main argument I've seen against a ban is that in-game Drago often faces a 1-2 situation - but this isn't why Drago is an unhealthy force in the metagame. Drago is unhealthy in the teambuilder, as it often forces a solid check to all of its sets (Scarf, Haban, AV, Band, Specs, Etc.) This "solid check" often ends up predictably being a fairy or steel type, leading to unhealthy sterilisation of the metagame. Blanched also made a good point about Drago being impossible to lure - It would require Haban Berry, but Specs can often blast past that.
In know I argued and voted against a Drago ban previously - I now realise I was mistaken (I'm the person Blanched is talking about). After learning how to properly build, I've realised how unhealthy Drago is in the current metagame. Sorry about that.
Mew is banned can you show calcs vs legal pokemon that are currently common in the meta? Calcs vs mons that are supposed to counter drago would be a lot more helpful to your argument, rather than showing it does a lot of damage.
I agree with delemon and delemon above and cannot argue better than them, but I'll just put these points on the table:
Brokenness: Drago's raw power is lower than that of a mon which would likely be quickbanned.
Code:
252+ Atk Choice Band Regidrago Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 266-314 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 244 Def Regidrago: 644-762 (106.6 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Regidrago Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 238-282 (73.2 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zacian Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Regidrago: 530-626 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
*While Zacian has no reason to run specs Moonblast, I chose Moonblast for illustration purposes, and also that's what Zacian would probably run if ____ could load it.
--
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 554-652 (162.4 - 191.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 504-594 (147.8 - 174.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
pz hits harder, comparing damage is pointless, yeah drago hits hard but main problem is stronghold it has on creativity in the builder
Thank you!
anws I believe drago needs to be suspected at the minimum(my fault ill vote ban next time) its clearly oppressive in the builder regardless of steels and fairies being in a better state post gouging ban so now ppl are more likely to just run dfs so they dont get auto 2-1
Regidrago isn't broken, but it creates a boring metagame.
Its ability to beat half of the meta has already been proven at length so I wont go into it. When you see drago, you click a fairy/steel and you win. Simple, right?
That's the problem.
Its presence forces you to bring a check every game, but those counters always boil down to a fairy or steel, likely both so you don't get 2-1'd. Constant preview 50/50s are not fundamentally broken, but they're fundamentally boring. This forces DDS, DFS, DFF combinations which get really tiring once you face/build/click into the 90th one. Players ultimately stop bringing drago because they don't want to play the same preview coinflip every time.
SV just doesn't have as many good Drago checks as SS did, so we are left with a handful of top tiers that will be spammed over and over again because regidrago can pop up and wipe the other half of your preview. It doesn't make building a nightmare, it makes building a boring chore (Non fairy/steels that can beat drago
dont beat all sets or are B ranked ).
Building and playing are both going to be miserable when drago's presence requires you to bring one of the 6 viable checks or die, and then navigate a 50/50 on preview.
Obviously you have to bring a counter for an S tier mon, but the issue is that Drago counters aren't mons, they are types. Every other top tier has a diverse matchup spread, its just drago that beats half the metagame but loses to anything with a fairy type.
There's never a point to tiering towards pure theoretical competitiveness. Yeah, on paper drago is fine because you bring one of its counters and beat it always, but in practise this mon is not fun to play with, as subjective as that word is. This mon's isn't just boring for seasoned players, it's also unfun for new players that want to get into this metagame. TL;DR: This mon restricts creativity in teambuilding, has homogenous counters and makes this metagame boring. When the inevitable suspect comes, please vote ban so we can enjoy playing the 1 versus 1 metagame on play.pokemonshowdown.com .
Regidrago should be banned and theres no doubt.... I still why people voted dnb in the suspect test ;-;.
Also Please stop saying that we can beat regidrago with fairy/steels, we know but thing is sticking to same mons throughout tours/ladder is kind of stupid just because of a single big ball and i agree whoever said in above post that ban regidrago and u will see how many uu mons will come up and show what they can do.
Here are 3 of the matches i played against mentality yesterday vs mentality in hpl https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2206539581-di6yhjxo3qrh7i04ebzmhtf8jjioe5spw (scizor bait) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2206541361 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2206543149-bw3q3bjloa6zyd5mbys29ntojnil27mpw (pls dont ask why did i lose even after right predict ;-;)
anyways i also wanted to tell that hatterene is so good to bait scizor
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Hatterene: 265-315 (83.3 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
will talk about a lot of usable uu mons later on
U can even complete ur suspect test by running regidrago (haban,scarf) and win in low ladder lol. I stopped using iron hands after losing to regidrago breaking swipe a lot of times even after trying hard and eving again and again. I got annoyed so much during PL when i used to make a team and i see that how it loses to some sort of its set.
Look at this regidrago v urshifu mu
132 Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu: 220-261 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
124 Atk Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regidrago on a critical hit: 291-343 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
124 Atk Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regidrago: 181-214 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
U can't even ko u back with sucker punch ;----; , THIS SET above of urshifu is av in damage calc. U just need a correct set and mu and ur koing it anyhow. I used to think urshifu is a good counter for drago but its not cause u don't know what set u are seeing next. It can be band/specs/scarf literally anything omg.... u might think that i am overexaggerating but that's NOT TRUE. Instead of keep predicting this single mons set just finish this debate and ban this after WC immediately. I think it don't even deserve a 2nd suspect test after so many users already complaining. Hey Mishlef will be waiting for u to organise uu tours again :)
At The End:-
The way archa, oger-hearth and gouging fire (3 of my favorite mons) got banned just because of their diversity of sets and getting broken every single day, this is getting banned.... enough
1. Restricts building
2. Keep using steels and fairy in every single team just to counter 1 single mon is bs
3. Boring meta
4. All UU mons which are capable to come up and show their power gets declined
5. Too Powerful
6. Speculating again and again what set it can be every single match isn't right (same like gouging, archa and oger-hearth)
Now I don't think there's anything else to say after this at the point.
I'll go against the crowd here and say that to me Regidrago does not exhibit behavior of being overly broken or straining in the builder, and I'll even go as far as to say that it's not dissimilar from some of the healthier top threats you see in other tiers: strong overall pokemon that is somewhat one-dimensional and has a difficult time overcoming its counters. I don't have a particularly strong opinion about him though, given that he does have annoying ass tools between scarf, breaking swipe, and eq/fire fang/crunch sets to beat a bunch of things it's not supposed to even through all the opportunity cost that comes with, but I just haven't seen enough of this metagame to justify tiering action on it. Metagames develop even without bans, and I've specifically seen some of the most absurd viability changes in SS and other gens without any action happening, give the players time and tools to adapt for a little bit. Which brings me to my second point:
Gouging Fire was banned less than two weeks ago, we've had literally nothing happen in the meantime, what like, two 1v1 lives and a round of masters are enough to gauge the brokenness of a pokemon? The metagame is too fresh. Regidrago is also a special case of having been suspected just a few months ago and come out with do not ban, and in the meantime the only two other bans that happened are ogerpon-hearthflame and gouging fire, which not only weren't regidrago counters, but were actually holding other steel- and fairy-type pokemon back from being viable.
Don't get me wrong, I comprehend the sentiment behind Regidrago, I could even be on board with it presented with enough arguments, evidence and experience proving that the metagame simply cannot adapt, but a suspect for it right now feels completely rushed and disingenous, at least to me.
i think suspecting drago is fine but at least wait a tour pls (wc)
also i feel like some of the points ppl have made are not well thought out:
not the same metagame but i mean you can have healthy mons that are impossible or hard to lure (ss zera, ss cress)
steels and faries will always be good pokemon, and idt drago is single handedly changing how ppl build their teams to an extent, but if you have mons as good as prim and gross and corv and val (that historically have been and still are good without drago) (and beat many pokemon outside of drago) idt the logic is sound saying drago forces these mons on every team when they already have high usage independant of drago's nature.
the 5050 previews argument i feel like is dumbing down the previews. i think it is easy to to tunnel vision on drago on preview and that is why people are scared of it. but in reality there are other factors in play on preview such as the other pokemon on your and your opponents team, and the many sets all of those pokemon can run. for example, drago vs mons like landot, walking wake, raging bolt or meowscarada are not an auto win for every regidrago set. also these clicking 5050s on preview i believe are an inherent part of 1v1, and drago just being an extension of that may not be that bad for the tier.
vague statement, also i feel like in practice drago isnt that strong hitting? it often sacrifices either bulk for power or power for bulk as seen in scarf sets vs haban sets etc.
don't want to repeat much but regidrago fits my description unhealthy element as it is restricting on the two fronts; the builder and on preview. i agree with everything that was said, regidrago checks being types and not pokemon is a very restricting tool, and even for example not all steels can beat regidrago, it can tech them back with fire fang and eq easily. so you're basically forced to run the same mons that are the same typing to actually not get 3-0ed, not a hard task but that's v restricting for building.
the preview thing being a 5050 isn't a solid argument tbh since many mons can be 5050 on preview. the thing here is that it's a pure 5050. ex: metagross-mega oras can be a preview coinflipper but it depends on its set, regidrago just purely coinflip the matchup due to its linear movepool and matchups. there's no out, no mindgames, no psychology involved which is the heart of 1v1, it's just pure coinflip preview.
i don't see the need to wait, it's a carried issue from months, with a close / error filled suspect. since there's talks + it got high scores in last survey its good to suspect, doesn't have to be an unanimous support cause in the end thats what suspecting is for + the recent bans did not negatively affect it at all, au contraire, it lessened the dragon competition.
clearly restricting, controversial pokemon, waiting for the sake of waiting before suspecting won't do much good.
I'll go against the crowd here and say that to me Regidrago does not exhibit behavior of being overly broken or straining in the builder, and I'll even go as far as to say that it's not dissimilar from some of the healthier top threats you see in other tiers: strong overall pokemon that is somewhat one-dimensional and has a difficult time overcoming its counters.
I think most of us agree that Regidrago isn't broken whatsoever (I'd even argue it's terrible right now, especially looking at usage from pl and just generally matching up horribly into the top threats) and if you're constantly running the same top mons then yeah you probably aren't gonna care about drago and are going to naturally have a good matchup versus it. The problem is that once you stray away from spamming the same mons over and over again, Regidrago will mostly have a positive matchup versus your team since outside of fairies/steels nothing really beats it consistently. That's why people are saying it's straining because you cannot deviate from having at least one fairy/steel on your team, of which there is a big lack of them anyways.
but I just haven't seen enough of this metagame to justify tiering action on it. Metagames develop even without bans, and I've specifically seen some of the most absurd viability changes in SS and other gens without any action happening, give the players time and tools to adapt for a little bit. Which brings me to my second point:
Gouging Fire was banned less than two weeks ago, we've had literally nothing happen in the meantime, what like, two 1v1 lives and a round of masters are enough to gauge the brokenness of a pokemon? The metagame is too fresh.
Maybe this is just me, but what new developments have changed in between Ogerpon-H ban and now? Outside of slight variations in the VR and people thinking Scizor and Zarude are good, nothing major has changed. Even after PL no major sets or new mons have revolutionized the meta whatsoever, at least from watching most PL replays+teamdumps. I would even argue that after Arch ban there wasn't much activity outside of the four people that actually build new and interesting things regularly (slapping scarf on a slow mon or using mons like Driftblim doesn't count). I would love to see some new changes to SV's meta, but taking into account what has happened before, I doubt it.
Regidrago is also a special case of having been suspected just a few months ago and come out with do not ban, and in the meantime the only two other bans that happened are ogerpon-hearthflame and gouging fire, which not only weren't regidrago counters, but were actually holding other steel- and fairy-type pokemon back from being viable.
What other steel and fairy type pokemon were "held back" from being viable? Just because stuff like Sylveon wasn't used that much during Oger-H meta doesn't mean it's unviable
Some of us (including myself) didn't get reqs cuz we just thought everyone agreed that we should ban drago and didn't bother to get reqs + poor communication like ending suspect early, not telling people when suspect tours were happening, etc is probably why there was only like 15 people who could vote and was a pretty close vote iirc, and a lot of people have been wanting another resuspect.
Also, to people who say that Regidrago doesn't make you run fairies/steels on every team, please look at your builder/pl teamdump, you will find out that 90% of your teams has at least one of those types, and the few that don't either have wonky answers like AV lando or scarf cress, or just outright get 3-0d (for example, fancy's teams all had a fairy/steel in them except for 3, and the ones that didn't only had 1 drago answer)
I think people can get a bit too caught up in tiering jargon for their own good.
If people want something banned, it goes to survey. If people on the survey want it banned, it is suspected. If people doing the suspect think it should be banned, it gets banned.
Ideally, yeah, bans should strictly follow tiering policy and just because drago is in some grey area of unhealthy / broken / restricting where it's unclear which side of the spectrum it falls on.
However, people can and most people do ban things based on whether or not they want them around.
If people want it gone now, don't wait, follow the process of survey, suspect, result.
If people are desperate to have it back, it can be re-suspected, however something so polarizing should see action asap as the suspect process allows both sides of the community to get the outcome they desire, which I feel some DNB people don't fully realise; if a suspect happens soon and it's determined it's not bannable, but at a later point it's resuspected and a ban result is reached, there is no real issue.
Waiting for the meta to settle is a fair concern, however, if something is oppressive when a meta is being established, history would show that it's likely to remain the case.
Before I respond in proper to this post, I do want to say I appreciate you posting against the grain here.
and say that to me Regidrago does not exhibit behavior of being overly broken or straining in the builder, and I'll even go as far as to say that it's not dissimilar from some of the healthier top threats you see in other tiers: strong overall pokemon that is somewhat one-dimensional and has a difficult time overcoming its counters.
I think this is the first part where I'll stop you. Because of how Regidrago plays every fairy-type (Besides like Dedenne ) just innately beats Regidrago. It effectively cannot damage Fairies in any meaningful capacity, and they will all effectively just hard counter with little to no work. And they are relatively plentiful in the tier. Looking at VR all of the following are ranked (even if I may disagree on some of these placements)
However even though we often say "run a fairy or steel type", this isn't as true for Steel-types. In fact, against many steels, Regidrago can abuse its bulk and variability to muscle past them without losing too many other key match-ups.
Spoilers in Spoilers time!
If you don't want to click the spoilers, it's me going through each of the ranked steel-types and looking at how much of a counter they are.
.Not A Counter.............. ...A Fairy .
Starting off actually really strong here. Iron Crown's ability to scale its bulk and damage simultaneously let's it push past practically all Regidragos pretty consistently, with the right set that is. Assuming perfect play (maybe not the *best* assumption) Many Iron Crowns pretty much always has a way to beat even the weirdest AV Sets, and
That being said certain Regidragos can still punish other Iron Crowns.
Take a hypothetical match-up between Band or Specs Regi and Defensive Iron Crown (we'll assume set comp here). Iron Crown is in a bit of trouble here. Regidrago outspeeds it and a +2 non invested Tachyon cutter doesn't KO. Worse even Specs or Band EP or EQ does 2HKO.
+2 0 SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regidrago: 440-522 (81.3 - 96.4%) -- approx. 2HKO
156 SpA Choice Specs Regidrago Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Iron Crown: 212-250 (55.6 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
208 Atk Choice Band Regidrago Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 240+ Def Iron Crown: 192-226 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This means that the Iron Crown has to set read the Drago and predict to ID or CM so that it can win.
Again that being said, Defensive Iron crown is still a counter to Haban and Scarf, and really all any Iron Crown needs to beat Regidrago is speed investment to win. (CB EQ isn't OHKOing) and it's overall a very low burden to cross to be a Counter.
9.5/10 Practically a Fairy-type
Not as one-sided as you might think. Sure AV Metagross shrugs off Scarf. Haban can't do shit. You can 100% EV for Specs. But you lose to Band.
208 Atk Choice Band Regidrago Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Metagross: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
108+ Atk Metagross Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 48 Def Regidrago: 226-267 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And if you want to try and live the 2hko, 1. You can't 100%. 2. Uninvested Psychic Fangs isn't cutting it, so you need meteor mash and that bag of randomness. 3. You're still rolling to KO with MM > MM > BP.
Band Metagross is even worse losing consistently now to both Specs EP and Band EQ.
So if you want consistency vs Drago, you have to be running WP. For a Dragon type.
Presumably the reason Hoodra is bulked for Specs Drago is because it wants to minimize set guessing and just click Acid Spray > endure > Draco (Draco and -2 Draco don't OHKO Haban or AV it's very sad). However, AV Drago is kind of weird here. Set comp AV with these bulk benchmarks does have a 30% chance to live that above sequence, but also AV with it's current investment has pretty low odds to 2HKO anyways, which means the Goodra has to set read AV on turn 2 to not risk fumbling the bag. (But also I'm pretty sure you can pretty easily just build your own AV Drago with less Defensive investment and more investment in SpD and SpA and you'll be pretty consistent into Custap Hoodra).
Chople Hoodra of course cannot play this game and has poor odds in to Haban even with perfect play, and you have to predict correctly Haban or AV vs Specs or Band or Scarf because you absolutely do not get a second shot.
Here's a few calcs to show what kind of damage numbers we're looking at.
88 SpA Goodra-Hisui Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 112 SpD Haban Berry Regidrago: 237-280 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
0+ SpA Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Goodra-Hisui: 175-207 (48 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Outrage vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Goodra-Hisui: 138-163 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
124 SpA Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Goodra-Hisui: 180-213 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
8.5/10 Dragon + Steel + Custap berry is practically Fairy
This match-up has been talked about a lot. Corvi counters barring the weird crit set.
9.5/10 Fang Drago is not real
Lefties Registeel beats Haban, Scarf, etc, but has to set read Band or Specs or it will get 2HKO'd.
Or you could run Specially Defensive Air Balloon so you can ID on 1 to avoid the Band Hammer Arm, and if specs was revealed on 1, you click Amnesia and recover.
9.5/10 only a tiny bit restricted in what you need to be to hard counter regi
Probably the easiest pokemon for Regidrago to choose to beat.
Any Scarf or Specs set loses to ground coverage from Band, Specs, AV, or Scarf. Haban has to put a little bit of work in and predict scarf vs specs to determine whether it uses Scale or DD first or just yolo the ground coverage
252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 112 SpD Regidrago: 282-333 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Regidrago Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-292 (76.7 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (no health investment because it's in speed to guarentee the outspeed against neutral Spe nature Drago and it's not like it'll change from a 2hko)
Now what about Balloon, you ask?
CB Hammer Arm beats non-ID sets.
208 Atk Choice Band Regidrago Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 204-240 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And Haban or AV can run Breaking swipe > EP > EP
124+ Def Heatran Body Press vs. 0 HP / 244 Def Regidrago: 90-106 (16.6 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO
0- Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Breaking Swipe vs. +2 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 17-21 (4.4 - 5.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0+ SpA Regidrago Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 272-320 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4/10 Don't count on it
CB Fire Fang wins, but also so does Bulky Fire Fang from an AV or Haban set.
208 Atk Choice Band Regidrago Fire Fang vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 340-404 (100.2 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Regidrago Fire Fang vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 172-204 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
232+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 0 HP / 244 Def Regidrago: 250-294 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO
232+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 244 Def Regidrago: 165-196 (30.4 - 36.2%) -- 49.3% chance to 3HKO
Moving a bit outside the set comp, bulky specs can win too, just need Def investment.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 232 HP / 44 SpD Scizor: 340-400 (100.2 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
5/10 who runs fire fang anyways
A steel-type Custap user is pretty good. AV + Ground coverage powers through pretty reliably.
24 SpA Regidrago Earth Power vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 132-156 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. -2 8 HP / 244+ SpD Assault Vest Regidrago: 187-222 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Thankfully Empoleon can pretty consistently bulk 1 specs or band ground move, metal sound > endure > Hydro Cannon
252 Atk Choice Band Regidrago Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 304-358 (81.7 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Regidrago Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 244-288 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Hydro Cannon vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Regidrago: 625-736 (103.4 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
7.5/10 avoid AV
I'm going to assume that if anyone's ever running this, they're running either Speed Booster IDPress or maybe Air Balloon IDPress? Idk no one runs it. Maybe there's an attack booster. Whatever. Breaking swipe + EP wins from like any Regidrago. And if they're not Balloon Specs or scarf Earth Power wins.
156 SpA Regidrago Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 202-238 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. 0 HP / 100 Def Regidrago: 133-157 (24.5 - 29%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
3/10 There's a reason this is ranked so low.
Let's just say Metal Burst is needed to beat choiced EQ or EP. And Chople Metal Burst is needed for Band Hammer Arm.
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 100 Def Regidrago: 229-271 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 100 Def Regidrago: 189-223 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
3.5/10 Idk usages has 20% Chople and 45% Metal Burst
252+ SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Regidrago: 498-586 (92 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO lol
But yea a little bulk and like any attack on most sets 2HKO
1/10 Who is calling this a counter?
Yea this thing loses to scarf. And Scale > EP > EP from Haban or AV. But hey at least you beat Band and Specs.
252 SpA Dragon's Maw Regidrago Draco Meteor over 3 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 316-374 (97.8 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Def Cobalion Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regidrago: 226-267 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4/10 Not the worst
That was fun. Essentially what I'm trying to show is that while yes, many of the best steel-types are virtually hard counters they are not the same as Iron Valiant or Sylveon and the few steel-types we do have can be overcame by a few alternate sets.
I don't have a particularly strong opinion about him though, given that he does have annoying ass tools between scarf, breaking swipe, and eq/fire fang/crunch sets to beat a bunch of things it's not supposed to even through all the opportunity cost that comes with, but I just haven't seen enough of this metagame to justify tiering action on it. Metagames develop even without bans, and I've specifically seen some of the most absurd viability changes in SS and other gens without any action happening, give the players time and tools to adapt for a little bit. Which brings me to my second point:
Moreso the reason I did all that legwork was because all of those annoying other tools you're talking about have become significantly more relevant as the tier continues to move forward.
Regidrago has consistently gotten better after every new metagame development, and it will continue to get even better, because it's just so prone to optimization. With Gouging banned it's less restricted to Haban wars, and it can dip more freely into these existing sets and other new spreads that have yet to become widespread.
Soon we won't really be able to say Fairies and most Steels counter Regi because these other sets will just be that devastating that it'll be Fairies and some steels. And as Drago continues to get better individual Steel-types will become more restricted and as everyone else has pointed out as well, teams as a whole will continue become more restrictive and linear.
Gouging Fire was banned less than two weeks ago, we've had literally nothing happen in the meantime, what like, two 1v1 lives and a round of masters are enough to gauge the brokenness of a pokemon? The metagame is too fresh. Regidrago is also a special case of having been suspected just a few months ago and come out with do not ban, and in the meantime the only two other bans that happened are ogerpon-hearthflame and gouging fire, which not only weren't regidrago counters, but were actually holding other steel- and fairy-type pokemon back from being viable.
Don't get me wrong, I comprehend the sentiment behind Regidrago, I could even be on board with it presented with enough arguments, evidence and experience proving that the metagame simply cannot adapt, but a suspect for it right now feels completely rushed and disingenous, at least to me.
Except this isn't new. Nothing anyone has said about Regi is new, and it's not like the metagame without Gouging or Hearth is going to make Regi worse. Why do we have to wait and wait for a metagame to settle when we all generally know what Regi is
Completely irrelevant here's a funny Eiscue
Eiscue @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Ice Face
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Snowscape
- Substitute
- Aqua Ring
Lumii's finally off work for a few hours, yay! This post will be discussing Regidrago with regards to Smogon's Tiering Policy. I've been wanting to make this post since this discussion started with Murm's post, but working over 50 hours a week tends to not lend itself to having time to make detailed Smogon posts. Also, this is coming specifically from a tournament player. I know some of the points here do not hold true to ladder, but I cannot really speak on a part of 1v1 that I historically have not been very invested in.
The Overall Purpose of Tiering Policy is to create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time.
I want to start off by discussing the basics of Smogon's Tiering Policy Framework and how it relates to 1v1, as this statement is directly copied from it.
To start really getting into the specifics of the overarching point, you have to first find a way to define skill. This is pretty cut and dry for 6v6, as the Tiering Policy Framework states exactly what skill is in 6v6, but I think that 1v1 has some major differences to what constitutes skill. I'll start with once again referencing the framework here.
Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle
Assessing and Dealing with Threats
Building Towards a Strategy (or Strategies)
Creativity
Catering to Metagame / Opponents
I think that in 1v1, we take assessing and dealing with threats to an extreme, as our aim is to have a direct way to beat every metagame threat in a direct way. However, we don't really have a true strategy that we often build towards outside of seeking to have 2-1s against certain Pokemon or trying to use certain archetypes that an opponent in a tournament might be weak against, which also ties into the last point. Creativity is where this gets a bit interesting, as creativity in team building is something that is really important in 1v1. One of the things that has kept me hooked on 1v1 for this long is the fact that you can often find some tech that allows you to do something new, whether it be in finding a new Pokemon, a new move on a it, a new item on it, or even an entirely different EV spread. Innovation is a crucial part of being a skilled builder in 1v1.
Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling
Picking the Right Lead
Recognizing the Win Condition
Picking the Right Move
Smart Switching
Gathering Information and Making Assumptions
Long-term vs. Short-term Goals
Assessing Risk
Probability Management
Prediction
I think that there's a lot more that's different here, because of the sheer amount of actually battling in 1v1 that is dependent on how players navigate team preview. Picking the right lead is obvious, as that's what so much of 1v1 revolves around. Similarly, picking the correct move is also really important, and a notable amount of matchups have sometimes counterintuitive move choices in 1v1. However, I don't think we have a long term win condition that we need to find, except in certain PP stall matchups. We also don't have the concepts of switching or long-term and short-term goals. However, we have a lot that relies on information gathering, probability management, assessing risk, and making assumptions.
In my eyes, all of this gets us to an interpretation of skill that gets us somewhere close to the following.
Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle
Assessing and Dealing with Threats
Creativity
Catering to Metagame / Opponents
Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling
Picking the Right Lead
Picking the Right Move
Gathering Information and Making Assumptions
Assessing Risk
Probability Management
Prediction
Now how does this all relate back to our current subject at hand, being discussion about a potential Regidrago suspect?
1) Different types of Team Previews inherently have different levels of skill that are associated with them, and we should seek to provide players with previews that take skill to navigate to aim for a higher chance of having the more skilled player win.
Ah yes, the dreaded triple 1-2 against your opponent's triple 2-1. Or just a raw 50/50 that can easily be decided by flipping a coin. While a triple 2-1 is an opponent's reward for good teambuilding, and I would argue is a good reward for skill, the 50/50 is the opposite and is a situation in which there is not an inherently better builder, and where matchups are oftentimes decided by less skill than previews in which all three Pokemon are viable options to be chosen by both sides.
Regidrago, by nature of it having an incredibly good matchup spread outside of Fairy-types and a handful of Steel-types, excels at creating previews in which 50/50s are present. In a lot of cases, this makes it nearly impossible to have a good team while making Regidrago unclickable, which is why it causes so many 50/50 matchups. Additionally, Regidrago can be pretty difficult to setguess, making previews even muddier. It's definitely possible to easily setguess some Regidrago sets, such as Choice Scarf, but the fact that you're getting forced into running Fairy- and Steel-types to have the potential to beat it reliably really makes Regidrago overbearing in the builder.
2) Creativity in Team Building is incredibly important in 1v1, and we should seek to create a metagame that fosters more creativity to allow for more skilled builders to win more often.
If I look at SV games from the playoffs of 1v1 Premier League VIII, 51 out of the 82 teams that were brought in SV had a Fairy-type. This is notably in a metagame with Gouging Fire, which was notably more of a deterrent to Fairy-types like Sylveon and Alolan Ninetales. Since 1v1 Masters will only have replays from this week, and since we do not have many replays from elsewhere outside of the four 1v1 Live Tournaments, I can't confirm that Fairy-type usage will increase with Regidrago becoming more centralising, but I expect this to be the case.
Between Primarina, Iron Valiant, Alolan Ninetales, Sylveon, Diancie, and Azumarill, we have a group of quite powerful Fairy-types in our metagame at the moment. It will be interesting to see if Round 7 of 1v1 Masters III will show an increase from the 62.19% of teams that had Fairy-types on them. I will gather and provide replays, throughout the week in the 1v1 Discord and try to post them here at the end of the week to see what we can gather about the usage of Fairy-types as a counter to Regidrago.
Getting back on point though, Regidrago strongly encourages certain styles of teams that I suspect to become much stronger due to the Gouging Fire ban, namely teams following the Dragon-Fairy-Steel (DFS) archetype. While Regidrago can struggle at times with this, as it is theoretically possible to beat Regidrago with Dragon-types, Fairy-types, and Steel-types, the Dragon-types in our metagame are not reliable into every Regidrago set. Having tiering action on Regidrago will allow players to avoid a metagame that is oversaturated with DFS-style teams and would allow players to more creatively build teams, as they will not be forced to run a Fairy-type or specific Steel-type in order to not lose to Regidrago.
I am definitely cutting this short, as I have things to do tomorrow and need to get rest by then, but expect to see a more detailed post from me later this week, when I have more data to go off of from this week of Masters.
My previous post I was working on got deleted yippee so I'm going to just write something more informal and shorter because that's lowkey frustrating (SAVE YOUR DRAFTS)
I.) We play, to the best of our simulator's capabilities, with the mechanics given to us on the cartridge.
While we strive to maintain fidelity to in-game mechanics, rare exceptions are made when specific elements are proven to undermine competitive integrity.
These include long-standing clauses like Sleep Clause, Evasion Clause, and OHKO Clause, but they should not be expanded on. New clauses for current generations (SV onwards) are fully off the table.
Suggestions to "remove critical hits" or "make Baton Pass fail in battle" are not...
I'm using this thread as the basis for definitions so now that we have a consistent definition for all the terminology I'll use we can continue:
Broken:
This is the weakest argument used by anti-Regidrago posts and most people on both sides already mentioned that these kinds of arguments are flawed so I'll just keep it short.
Regidrago is not broken because frankly Regidrago is not that good of a pokemon. With many losing matchups to top tiers and common pokemon in general it is rare that Regidrago gets a 3-0 matchup on preview, and even claiming it gets a "2-1" (insert Mishlef rant that most things people refer to as 2-1s aren't actually 2-1s) while also claiming it forces DFS is wrong to say. I'll also respond to something specific Lost Heroes said about the Iron Crown vs Regidrago matchup. Regidrago has no agency in this matchup, as mentioned in his post, the Iron Crown at worst has to setguess between physical and special choiced Regidragos. This is a sign that Iron Crown has the ability to beat Regidrago with proper prediction, not that Regidrago can reliably beat Iron Crown which is a key distinction. Arguments for Regidrago being broken would be more persuasive if Regidrago could win much more matchups if it properly setguesses instead of relying on it's opponent to setguess incorrectly. And if you are relying on your opponent making a mistake a lot of matchups for any pokemon become much better.
Uncompetitive:
This is a stronger, yet still not convincing argument, for banning Regidrago. The simplified (if you want the full in depth argument please read the other posts in this thread) version of this argument is that Regidrago forces 2-1s and can simplify matchups to a coinflip. This is not inherently different from any other mon in the tier. Namely, ignoring mirror matchups, every preview is essentially one of 3 possible matchups(slightly simplified):
I'll be considering Team 1 as: A, B, C and Team 2 as: D, E, F and
A
D
75%
can be read as A has a 75% to beat D (or vice versa D has a 25% to beat A)
The first matchup is the most straightforward and its the 3-0 matchup:
WLOG let's say A is the 3-0, this means that it beats D,E, and F. In this case there is no reason to click any other mon from Team 1's side. Some notes I will add, 3-0 does not even necessarily mean that A has a 100% wincon vs D,E and F. All that it requires is that A has a better matchup vs D than B or C, better matchup vs E than B or C, and better matchup vs F than B or C. Consider the following matchup chart:
A
B
C
D
100
80
60
E
40
30
40
F
80
75
60
in this case A and E are both forced clicks in this matchup, even though neither E nor A can be considered 3-0s per say. There is no reason for B or C to be clicked because looking at D,E,F matchups A has a better or equal chance to beat all of those mons than C, and similarly E has a better or equal matchup into A,B, and C.
The second matchup is the "2-1" matchup that is actually a 50/50:
WLOG let's consider that A is a "2-1" and not all of B and C are "2-1"s
A
B
C
D
10
100
0
E
75
20
65
F
85
30
100
In this case a faulty analysis of this preview might lead you to believe that this isn't a binary decision. One might say both A and C are "2-1s" because A beats E and F, and C beats E and F with A being slightly better into D and E and C being better into F. However, this is faulty logic if you are assuming both players are competent. Let's take the same analysis from Team 2's side, D is a "2-1", E is a "1-2", and F is a "1-2". Comparing E to F there is no reason to pick E over F, as E does better into all of A, B and C. Thus Team 2 has no reason to click F over E. Following this then Team 1 has no reason to click C over A as the only advantage of C over A is a better F matchup, a mon which should never get clicked. Thus this "2-1" matchup is in reality a 50/50, either A into E or B into D.
This is the most common matchup in 1v1, and while I don't have proof of that, I would encourage people to consider their own games and analyze if you really break down matchups in 1v1 you will find all mons have this dynamic, not just Regidrago.
I will leave the 3 2-1s case as an exercise for the reader because this is getting longer than I expected and yeah.
The argument against this analysis (that all mons have the same dynamic as regidrago if you analyze enough) is that unlike the examples I shown above, which assumes perfect knowledge, is that Regidrago enables this easier than other mons because it has very clear winning and losing matchups which simplifies the analysis. I believe this is only the case because people consider that Regidrago is every set at the same time and if you apply that same logic to other mons you will see that this is not representative of reality.
For sake of brevity I'll only talk about the Regidrago vs Hoopa matchup (I was also going to talk about Ogerpon-W and like Cress but ye):
Something we all should agree on is that people claim that Regidrago beats Hoopa and people use it as an example of Regidrago beating "all non-fairy, non-steel" so I'm going to consider a couple of Regidrago sets from the set comp and show the issues in each:
The main thing we'll find is that Regidrago has to setguess between clicking Outrage and clicking Scale Shot. I will note that AV is one of the better ones that I'm going to talk about
Clicking Outrage without attack invest runs into
0 Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 292-345 (97 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
which is definitely Regidrago favored but every bit of bulk Hoopa puts on makes it worse, consider Specs Hoopa HP,
0 Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Outrage vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 292-345 (92.9 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
and you do live 2 moves from Hoopa so it's Regidrago favored but the real problem arises with Custap Hoopa
0 Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Outrage vs. 48 HP / 248 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 210-247 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 8 HP / 196- Def Regidrago: 288-340 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This set I even struggle to consider a Hoopa answer lets consider that Outrage doesn't ohko 0 bulk hoopa so you are forced to scale shot to beat 252/252 band
0- Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 262-310 (87 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
However, if you Scale Shot now you have to get lucky with rolls or Scale Shot hits or hope that the Hoopa doesnt have more attack
0- Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Hoopa-Unbound: 144-172 (39.8 - 47.6%) -- approx. 3HKO
0+ SpA Dragon's Maw Regidrago Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 184-217 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Zen Headbutt vs. -1 0 HP / 244 Def Regidrago: 349-412 (64.5 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
or again not being great into Custap + needing to get lucky Scale Shot hits vs Scarf
192 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 244 Def Regidrago: 220-261 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
192 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. -1 0 HP / 244 Def Regidrago: 331-391 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Scale Shot (3 hits) vs. -1 48 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 252-297 (80.5 - 94.8%) -- approx. 2HKO
You do pretty well into previous mentioned Hoopa except you get rolled by Bulky Specs Hoopa
24+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Regidrago: 499-588 (92.2 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
132 Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Outrage vs. 216 HP / 252 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 237-280 (66.7 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and also still lose to custap
Loses to AV
156 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 177-208 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
0- SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psychic Noise vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regidrago: 201-237 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
156 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (94 BP) vs. 248 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 111-132 (30.5 - 36.3%) -- 53.2% chance to 3HKO
48 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 100 Def Regidrago: 124-146 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (you heal enough)
156 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (59 BP) vs. 248 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 70-84 (19.2 - 23.1%) -- possible 5HKO
48 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 100 Def Regidrago: 238-282 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
We finally found the Regidrago set on the set comp which 100% beats Hoopa yippee
Point is that no one would consider Regidrago to not be a Hoopa counter and yet if you apply the same analysis that people have done in this thread to Regidrago you will find that Regidrago has to "setguess so much on preview".
TLDR for this section: First half says that Regidrago is no different than any other mon and consistently getting "2-1"s is not real not a reason to ban Regidrago as by that logic almost every mon would get banned. And the second part was preemptively responding to the criticism of my first half and saying that Regidrago matchups aren't as simple as people are saying (at least not to a noticeable degree from any other top tier mon).
Unhealthy:
The cheap way out of this is to claim that no one has actually provided reasoning for unhealthiness, as people who have mentioned how Regidrago is unhealthy have almost all mentioned teambuilder restriction which if you look at the definition of unhealthy is
These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
but I'll just say the main argument against this from my end is that, if Regidrago was unhealthy and was allowing the better player to lose compared to the lesser player we would see that in practice. Now Unhealthy as a ban reasoning is inherently subjective so arguing for or against this is hard but at least in an attempt to look at it objectively let's consider the SV playerbase and their records (and be subjective about calling them good or bad).
If Regidrago was unhealthy then let's consider SV7 pool:
In this pool of people I would expect at least one of the weaker players being in the top 4 yet I think all of eblurb, bo, delemon, blanched, and lumii are some of the best in the tier. Neomon, Kaif, and RTM are still good players but in a competitive SV7 pool I do expect them to do slightly worse than the ones previously mentioned. Drip I am excluding because of not enough data points since he played SV5 (and did very well). And I excluded all the 0 win individuals all of which I believe are considerably worse than the other players above (no smoke I'd get cooked by them still)
I don't feel qualified enough to talk about the relative skill of sv2 and sv3 as all players to me seem about the same skill level so like I can't talk much about those records but regardless, if Regidrago is unhealthy the only semi-objective metric (of calling people good or bad lol) is that Regidrago would allow better players to lose to worse players more frequently which is not what I think is shown.
Thus if Regidrago is neither Broken, Uncompetitive, nor Unhealthy then there is no reason to ban Regidrago. RIP my previous post, this one is more informal and I tried to incorporate some of the stuff I wrote previously but ye gg. DNB Regidrago
In this pool of people I would expect at least one of the weaker players being in the top 4 yet I think all of eblurb, bo, delemon, blanched, and lumii are some of the best in the tier.
A lot of things make a good 1v1 player, and I genuinely do not see myself at the level of blurb, bo, delemon, and blanched. That aside, this very much rubs me the wrong way. I disagree with the assertion that what someone considers a "weaker" player not doing well is showing that a metagame has an unhealthy mon in it. This is incredibly subjective, and I see RTM and Kaif, for example, as better players than me. People do well in tours for a variety of reasons, including how much time they can put into it, what sort of support they have from teammates, the environment of the team, and so much more. Trying to simplify that into just thinking about the metagame (which I want to also note had Gouging Fire legal for its entirety and Ogerpon-H legal for a significant period of time in PL) is definitely not the way to go about it, and at least to me, reeks of elitism.
Additionally, I don't think that looking at tour records in general is a good way to find a good basis on whether or not a tier needs tiering action, as I do not have to play against Regidrago in every game of my bo7 series. If I'm able to maintain a winning matchup whenever it isn't brought, I'm doing pretty well as a whole when it comes to winning a series.
That's all I've got, it's 12:40 am and I have work in the morning lmfao...
choice band gdarm giga impact also stops you from playing the game (by killing you)
encore ban is stupid and only holds water because redacted thinks its a good idea. there will always be some strategy that is the best thing you can be doing.
also particularly in sv where trick users are all unviable, banning encore simultaneously makes no sense and would make the meta worse bc of a lack of good options for stallbreaking.
edit:
to elaborate on “trick is unviable” encore is really not the biggest issue for it. oger obviously blocks it and booster raging bolt/crown can just statcheck cress. i think trick cress would see play if it could beat the booster mons. scarf gross (held back by disable btw) is ok and thats about it.
really the main thing this does for the meta is targeted nerf prim, which already has to blanket check one million things it can barely comfortably beat.
The unhealthy 3 in terms of teambuilding (imo): mixed LO hoopa band hoopa specs hoopa, custap hoopa, super annoying to cover when not using very bulky very strong attackers. How broken this feels depends on ur landorus t and ursaluna usage. not the most broken pokemon but I just think that we don't have enough counters mathematically for it to be healthy - definitely meta warping. I also believe that the last suspect for it was extremely scuffed and that it deserves a resuspect to get real results, not "sorry we forgot to include vital details about the suspect, anyways on with other stuff" this mon lives literally everything and has basically no bad set. Balloon is broken, maranga is broken, max defense is broken, etc. Most egregious pokemon imo, strongly in favor of a suspect on this one.
cool mons you should use: run twave charm and profit immensely please run pressure stall - snarl is a cool 4th move a gen where urshifu water is better than dark??? this mon is so good not the best but actually much better than expected, gets cool mus sometimes, bobobson had the vision has always been super good, taunt pain split is funny
If you run these pokemon please: try out scarf run max defense life orb run max spa life orb - eerie impulse beats the fairies, dark pulse for pecha, etc, more techs than you expect try out custap try out specs or clear amulet reflect please put spdef on your passho sets so you actually try beating primarina
last notes:
primarina is in super dire need of extra evs for the mus it wants and is kind of mid in practice because of it (LO, specs, sitrus cm encore are still nbad, but as a whole the pokemon is in practice a lot less splashable than it woudl like)
Overall meta is okay but could be better, imo at least one of the big 3 I posted above needs action.
Murm out 
that will be spammed over and over again because regidrago can pop up and wipe the other half of your preview. It doesn't make building a nightmare, it makes building a boring chore (Non fairy/steels that can beat drago
).
) just innately beats Regidrago. It effectively cannot damage Fairies in any meaningful capacity, and they will all effectively just hard counter with little to no work. And they are relatively plentiful in the tier. Looking at VR all of the following are ranked (even if I may disagree on some of these placements)
.
....
....
.
mixed LO hoopa band hoopa specs hoopa, custap hoopa, super annoying to cover when not using very bulky very strong attackers. How broken this feels depends on ur landorus t and ursaluna usage.
this mon lives literally everything and has basically no bad set. Balloon is broken, maranga is broken, max defense is broken, etc. Most egregious pokemon imo, strongly in favor of a suspect on this one. 
run twave charm and profit immensely
please run pressure stall - snarl is a cool 4th move
a gen where urshifu water is better than dark???
this mon is so good
has always been super good, taunt pain split is funny
run max spa life orb - eerie impulse beats the fairies, dark pulse for pecha, etc, more techs than you expect
try out custap
try out specs or clear amulet reflect 
please put spdef on your passho sets so you actually try beating primarina