Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[armaldlothearmaldo]

With the custap berry suspect being over and the Regidrago suspect not having started yet, those of us not in OGPL have a bit of a breather. As such, I thought I would give some thoughts on the current meta, which I discussed pretty minimally in my last post and which I got to think about way too much during reqs laddering. It's also possible that I like the sound of my own voice, but I think I have something original to contribute. I'm using spoilers because it's kind of a lot of text, as is my wont.

The Metagame as a Whole

Mainly, I want to talk about where I think the meta can develop to, since deg's January 17 post on the metagame is still more or less a reflection of where the meta is. After all, [18:54] +deg: deg is always right. To recap for people who didn't read deg's post: the meta is focused on dragon types right now, meaning that the pokemon that do well into dragons, namely fairies and steels, and the things that do well into those things, namely fire types, are quite good. I would extend this logic a bit further: ground types and water types do well into steel and fire types (water also does well into grounds) while having potentially good matchups into some fairies and some common dragons (choice banded Donphan is a good, concrete example, since it can beat Gouging Fire and Metagross with earthquake and Primarina and Whimsicott with gunk shot). One step beyond this, grass types do well into the things that do well into the meta, meaning they hypothetically have a role to play on meta teams. Wings of Dragons (Dragon Fire, Dragon Steel, Grass type) and DDoS (Steel, Dragon Fire, and Dragon Water) are decent examples of this paradigm. As far as I can tell, other types, like poison or rock, need to be taken on a very concrete, case by case basis and don't fit into this model so well.

So, why does this matter? Because it offers directions for meta development and exploration. Exploring the different pokemon that fit within this archetype that do not see much use, such as Venusaur or Arcanine, could prove quite beneficial, and I believe there are many underused options that can carve out niches in the meta. Personally, I think exploring along these lines will be much more beneficial than simply stumbling around without clear purpose in the short and medium terms. In the long run, of course, other things will have to be developed, and there is definitely a lot to look at outside my overly neat model.

tl;dr: Dragons are good. Fairies and steels do well into dragons. Fires do well into those and support dragons. Waters and grounds do well into fires and steels and are therefore anti-meta. Grasses do well into waters and grounds and therefore support natural meta cores. Everything else is weird right now, so explore underused pokemon of those types.

Archaludon

I would also like to formally join the growing chorus of people calling for tiering action against Archaludon at some point in the future, though obviously the focus right now should be on Regidrago. At present, between standard power herb, power herb with iron defense and body press, and stamina assault vest, Archaludon feels extremely difficult to build, and pick, against. These three sets, to say nothing of more niche options like scarf, give Archaludon an amazing matchup spread into the tier (I would go into concrete examples, since 1v1 thrives on those, but I haven't got the time) and with relatively minor tweaks, Archaludon is capable of teching almost everything. Landorus-T, for instance, loses to metal burst, Haxorus can be bulked for, haban berry Regidrago and Raging Bolt hard lose to assault vest, Metagross loses to iron defense body press, Sneasler loses to stamina, and so on. The fundamental problem that makes Archaludon so powerful is this: the conventional method to dealing with sturdy pokemon, especially sturdy pokemon with metal burst, is to hit them with a weak attack like rock tomb or fake out followed by a powerful nuke. On the physical side, Archaludon can punish that with stamina, usually preventing a 2hko. On the special side, assault vest affords it tremendous bulk even without sturdy. However, because it may be sturdy, it's difficult to endorse clicking the nuclear option turn one which can lead to being metal bursted (Landorus-T), mirror coated, or perhaps just normally KOed (Sneasler). By the time you figure out which it is, the game is probably decided.

tl;dr: Archaludon has an excellent set of tools in 1v1 and specifically has an ideal toolkit to punish common means of beating sturdy pokemon.

 

[bern]

time to throw my two cents ig

Overcentralization and unhealthiness
this is where most SV players split, as currently we've come at what has probably been the biggest argument in the entirety of SV, which is the allowance of Regidrago and the good and bad of centralization, i have been quite (extremely) vocal about regidrago to say the least. i've believed it deserved a suspect since the initial Hoopa-U ban and i was so glad that it will finally have one, so: as i've argued before, Regidrago is overcentralizing, it forces fairies, steels, and faster dragons (which it can still adapt to with haban or scarf) to no end, and while it is correct that fairies and steels would still be prominent without it, regidrago kinda forces everything else out and makes the meta more focused on answering it with a fairy and/or steel pokemon, of which there are many that are viable thanks to it. (with currently 7 fairies and 6 steels being ranked B- and above)

Regidrago is also relevant in the predominance of the DFS core, as it can be a part of it, as well as get countered by it, but i don't think what people realize is that this predominance is what makes Regidrago unhealthy. because of the fact 80% of the meta loses to it, and the only reliable answers are steels and fairies, having both a fairy and a steel accompanying it not only already helped with what mons you won against, but also you win against Regidrago with more than 1 pokemon. Regidrago is incredibly scary on preview if your team isn't DFS, and it can force 50/50s because of this presence, forcing you to pick between the mon that beats drago and the one that doesn't is detrimental to preview regardless of if you're the one using Regidrago or not. this also means that Regidrago will usually never be a 3-0 on preview, because it's such a good mon and you have to account for it. the meta is centered around dragons, yes, and DFS will remain a common core, but as it is currently, it's been around everywhere and one of the reasons why is Regidrago forcing every other pokémon out of the equation and focusing on DFS, DFF, FFS, etc. this also means FWG isn't that good of a core as it was because of dragon dominance, which is why you'll often see prim or azu trying to accomodate for the Regidrago problem.

here's a concrete list of what mons can handle regidrago consistently:
Fairies
Some steels (mons like and crumble to eq and loses too [click on corv for replay])
Some sets of
Scarf, AV, AV

kinda tiny, don't you think? (if you wanna add more to this list please do so you can prove me wrong, these are all just off the top of my head)

tl;dr regidrago demolishes more than 3/4 of the meta and forces fairies and steels unlike any other dragon-type, thus making it unhealthy and overcentralizing

Overpoweredness
it's really good, read armaldlothearmaldo's thoughts on arch it's a good post and i agree with his statements, could be qb'd maybe idk lol

ok that's it ty for reading
reminder that this is opinion, not fact (except the list). nothing i say will make an impact on the actual decisions of council.

 

[DEG]

This is why we should NOT prioritize/suspect Regidrago.

To put it frankly and with the fewest words possible, Regidrago is NOT unhealthy or overcentralizing in the current SV metagame and taking action on it before any other Pokemon is a waste of time and will not change the metagame.

forces fairies, steels, and faster dragons (which it can still adapt to with haban or scarf) to no end, and while it is correct that fairies and steels would still be prominent without it, regidrago kinda forces everything else out and makes the meta more focused on answering it with a fairy and/or steel pokemon, of which there are many that are viable thanks to it. (with currently 7 fairies and 6 steels being ranked B- and above)

The wording here is wrong and misleading. Regidrago does not force a steel, a dragon or a fairy at all. You said it, you ARE going to use Pokemon with that typing. It's natural. Saying Regidrago forces usage of these types is wrong since you imply that you would not use them if it wasn't for Regidrago. You can link that with the Pokemon you showcased in the end of your post, all these mons are inherently great most of the time and will be used regardless so Regidrago is not forcing their usage. You could however say, force you to click them, which is correct, but they can form formidable cores together so most of the time you're not even forced into a 50/50 unlike SS for example. It's just clicking, regular 1v1.

Regidrago is also relevant in the predominance of the DFS core, as it can be a part of it, as well as get countered by it, but i don't think what people realize is that this predominance is what makes Regidrago unhealthy. because of the fact 80% of the meta loses to it, and the only reliable answers are steels and fairies, having both a fairy and a steel accompanying it not only already helped with what mons you won against, but also you win against Regidrago with more than 1 pokemon.

Wrong, Regidrago is not the reason DFS is predominant. The individual Pokemon that form that core are amazing on their own, also referring to the list of Pokemon you inserted in the end. They will always be used, they will always be dominant. Also, strictly metagame speaking, DFS variants should not be used since they're weak to dominant Pokemon. If you're using DFS every game you have a glaring weakness to Gouging and Archaludon as a start. I don't agree with DFS supremacy from the start, nor I agree Regidrago helps in DFS. I also believe DFS with Gouging/Archa is the superior version and the one that loses the less to the metagame; i.e: Arch+Prim, Gouging+Crown is better than Drago+Fairy/Steel.

this also means that Regidrago will usually never be a 3-0 on preview, because it's such a good mon and you have to account for it. the meta is centered around dragons, yes, and DFS will remain a common core, but as it is currently, it's been around everywhere and one of the reasons why is Regidrago forcing every other pokémon out of the equation and focusing on DFS, DFF, FFS, etc. this also means FWG isn't that good of a core as it was because of dragon dominance, which is why you'll often see prim or azu trying to accomodate for the Regidrago problem.

You actually circled back to saying that DFS will always be a thing which I agree as I previously said. However, you made another mistake, Regidrago does not force DFF, FFS and it certainly does not destroy FWG lol. If you look at the cores you stated they have one mutual breaker which is not Regidrago, it's actually Gouging Fire. With Regidrago gone, Gouging will have a chokehold on the cores you stated. Gouging simply destroys FWG, it destroys DFF, and FFS, unlike you like use prim/azu as a fairy everytime and you stated that you don't want that.

In your opening lines you said that it's a good mon and you have to account for it, which is the same for Gouging Fire, Archaludon, Valiant, Prim and every other good meta defining Pokemon so I don't see the point.

here's a concrete list of what mons can handle regidrago consistently:

I would invite you to do the same exercise for Gouging Fire and Archaludon and come back to me. Well you did state arch is OP so ill give you that.
I would like to add that building teams that make drago a 1-2 or fend off drago is easy and natural, you don't have to bend yourself to beat or fend off drago on preview. I'll go more in details when the time but this is just a fast post.

- Regidrago should NOT be a priority when thinking of the next step
- Regidrago is NOT currently overcentralizing or unhealthy since it does not force anything, it's just the natural flow of the meta
- Suspecting it is a waste of time since hypothetically banning it doesn't change anything in the metagame as seen by the popular cores, and metagame trends
- Restating from my custap post "This does not mean this element won't be broken in the future but CURRENTLY there's no need for action"
- Would rather shift the focus on Gouging and Archaludon
- Personally, the metagame is perfect and there's no need to ban anything but I can agree with Gouging and Arch if the community feels like it.

 

[lost heros]

Hi, let's talk about Archaludon

​

Section 1: The obvious shit

Typing: Steel/Dragon is a very strong offensive and defensive typing. Defensively Arch resists 8 types and doubly resists another 1. It also is immune to toxic and poison, for a total of 10 types it's resistant to. Offensively, it only hits 4 types Super Effectively, but it is also only resisted by 1 type, Steel. Then going over to our handy little coverage tool at https://pokemondb.net/tools/type-coverage, we can see there's only a few pokemon that actually resist it's STABs. Legal fully evolved pokemon are . Fun fact all of these pokemon, sans Empoleon, are weak to Fire, and many are weak to Fighting (we'll get to why that's important soon). In fact with Steel/Dragon/Fighting/Electric Coverage, there are 0 pokemon that resist all of them.

Stats: 90/105/130/125/65/85 for a total of 600 BST is very good. There's significant Physical Bulk and strong Special Attack with a not necessarily insignificant Attack Stat. In addition, while 85 speed isn't the best, it's still fast enough where Speed Investing can be very beneficial.

Abilities: Stalwart is fake, but Sturdy is arguably one of the best abilities in the game for 1v1. Being able to live a hit for free with no bulk investment in 1v1 is absurdly good. Stamina is no slouch either; although it's way more niche in usage, a slow build up of defensive boosts can be very valuable.

Movepool: Draco Meteor, Flash Cannon, Dragon Pulse, Electro Shot, Body Press are rather core moves for a wide variety of sets. For coverage options for it has access to Thunderbolt, Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, Foul Play, Mirror Coat. For effective situational moves there is Rock Tomb, Metal Burst, Metal Sound. For specific set options, it has Meteor Beam, Endure, Outrage, Iron Head. There are more things too it can run, Protect, Rest, Swords Dance, Iron Defense, Breaking Swipe, Snarl, but those are barely relevant.

Section 2: Quick Sets because I don't feel like EVing

Set 1: Power Herb is inarguably the most popular set on ladder right now and the best. I've highlighted Timid as it's the preferred nature, but both work. With Power Herb, Electro Shot is a pseudo-STAB option giving 2 big 130 BP moves that can devastate a lot of frailer Pokemon. Meteor Beam also works similarly although it's a bit weaker, and then Flash Cannon works as secondary STAB. Rock Tomb is amazing speed control and pairs very well with Sturdy (Probably better than either previous option). Metal sound is when you want to really blow up pokemon.

Spoiler

Power Herb (Archaludon) @ Power Herb
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Electro Shot
- Meteor Beam / Flash Cannon / Rock Tomb / Metal Sound
- Meteor Beam / Flash Cannon / Rock Tomb / Metal Sound

Set 2: Custap Berry is a very solid option for obvious reasons. 2 nearly guaranteed attacks thanks to Sturdy is absurdly good. 2 Draco Meteor's is still stronger than 2 Dragon Pulse, but for bulkier match ups and for Haban match ups it can definitely be valuable. Thunderbolt is just good coverage. Mirror Coat lets you run speed invest with still a strong counter option for special attackers. Metal Sound > Draco or Endure > Draco blows things up.

Spoiler

Custap (Archaludon) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
- Endure
- Flash Cannon / Thunderbolt / Mirror Coat / Metal Sound / Protect
- Flash Cannon / Thunderbolt / Mirror Coat / Metal Sound / Protect

Set 3: Choice Specs focuses instead on just pure power. Draco Meteor goes brrrrr, and a boosted Flash Cannon is good. Boosted coverage options as well can be good, but in my opinion rarely hit their targets. Dark Pulse can surprise some Metagross and Iron Crown that are expecting to counter Archaludon, no matter what. Thunder can sometimes beat a Primarina. But overall, I'm Not A Fan(tm). Steel Beam can only be used if you survive a 2HKO or are faster.

Spoiler

Choice Specs (Archaludon) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse / Thunderbolt / Mirror Coat / Steel Beam
- Dark Pulse / Thunderbolt / Mirror Coat / Steel Beam

Set 4: Stamina AV (EVs courtesy of kenn, I am told it does stuff) tries to punish the Sturdy Punishers of the tier. Turn 1-ing Fake Out, Rock Tomb, or Bulldoze can all of a sudden make Arch even more physically bulky and also boost its Body Press. Assault Vest aims to fill SpD weakness and somewhat make up for the lack of Sturdy. STABs are STABs and then coverage is niche. Rock Tomb does Rock Tomb stuff.

Spoiler

Assault Vest (Archaludon) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Steel EVs: 240 HP / 4 Def / 128 SpA / 72 SpD / 64 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Body Press
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt / Mirror Coat / Rock Tomb

Those are what I think are the main sets. There's also a few other sets that are still more hypothetical. There's also dedicated IronPress set in Set Comp with Air Balloon or Chople Berry. I've experimented a bit with a Scarf set which has been pretty good as well. Physical / Band sets were also experimented a bit, but I doubt any of these will necessarily take off.

Section 3: Partnering

I'll go over the metagame spread next, but that's long and a lot of calcs, so I'd rather do this first.

Fire-types: Fire-types can help break through the Steel pokemon that outright resists Archaludon's STABs. Thanks to Electro Shot, Power Herb sets excel at breaking down water-types. Dragon STAB with Sturdy and a secondary steel-type means Arch can break dragon-types that Fires would struggle with. Furthermore, a Fire / Arch core is especially deadly to Fairy-types, which are typically a strong type in 1v1. There are also many good Fire-type pokemon. Ogerpon-H, Gouging Fire, Volcanion, and Skeledirge, were all "OU" usage last month at 1630.

Hoopa-U: Already one of the best pokemon in the metagame, Hoopa-U pairs extremely well with Archaludon. Being an offensive Steel-type, Arch can usually scare off most Fairy-types that could be problematic for Hoopa-U , and Hoopa-U thanks to a physical bias can usually handle AV users in addition to Metagross and Iron Crown.

Grass-types: While these pokemon don't benefit a lot from Archaludon's Electro Shot hitting Water-types, Arch definitely appreciates how they can handle Ground-types, that could sometimes be an issue. If you run Meteor Beam Power Herb, Arch can also threaten virtually all Fire-Types for them too.

Section 4: Metagame Spread

Ok fine I'll do a bunch of boring calcs. Spoilers within spoilers ofc.

Spoiler

S Rank

Starting off with a very interesting Match-Up honestly. A simple Max/Max Adamant Booster Gouging will virtually always lose as it's always slower than Timid Arch and dies to Draco Meteor

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 440-518 (125.3 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A Max / Max Jolly Booster set could theoretically Sub on T1 and then 2HKO with Outrage.

-2 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 218-260 (62.1 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 186-220 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course if you Power Herb Electro Shot turn 1 that's more than enough damage to break the substitute and no amount of Substitute shenanigans will save Gouging.

(substitute 1 - 76%)

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 110-129 (31.3 - 36.7%) -- 75.5% chance to 3HKO

(substitute 2 - 51%)

-1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 294-348 (83.7 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(substitute 3- 26%)

-3 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 176-210 (50.1 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-5 still does too much damage.

-5 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 126-150 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So overall, IF Gouging starts running Substitute a Power Herb Arch set is in a set predict 50/50 where on reveal of Booster it's can Draco for the Kill but if they sub you lose, or it can Electro Shot to break the sub but if they Scale Shot you lose. Kinda cool tbh.

And that's BEFORE we even talk about Bulky Attack Boosters

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 216 HP / 252 SpD Gouging Fire: 342-404 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

40+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Scale Shot (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 108-129 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- approx. 3HKO

40+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 172-204 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is a mess of rolls but it's roughly a 33% chance to win and can be got by a Rock Tomb. Not particularly good

Now of course this is all very moveset dependent on Gouging.

As for the other major Gouging set, Haban, without booster Scale > Outrage doesn't KO consistently as you need 4 hits + a roll or 5 hits, which is a roughly 20% chance.

252+ Atk Gouging Fire Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 132-160 (41.1 - 49.8%) -- approx. 3HKO

252+ Atk Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 157-186 (48.9 - 57.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

As for other Arch spreads, they all just dummy Gouging without really any games.

Custap could be somewhat interesting because Gouging could be faster and could do sub and Burning shenanigans, but overall I still think Arch is favored in this MU.

S- Rank

Most Arch sets have absolutely no problem with Prim for fairly obvious reasons. Enduring doesn't really matter when Prim still has to break the Sturdy somehow

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 364-430 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Maybe you can bulk it but then what? You can't exactly KO back.

You're better off not Enduring and predicting a Custap set from Arch.

252 SpA Archaludon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 170-200 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Archaludon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 186-220 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archaludon: 237-279 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you do that you can do shenanigans with Encore at least. The Arch is dropped into Custap range for turn 2. They Thunderbolt again on your Endure. Now you as Prim have a custap turn, if you Encore their Endure you'll win, and if you Moonblast on their Tbolt you'll win. Fun! Of course, hopefully they didn't just mirror coat on 1 where you should've CM'd OOPS.

Stamina AV isn't 2HKO'd by Moonblast, but also only rolls for the TBolt kill. If you can anticipate it, I believe a CM T1 can win it for the Prim.

Overall, I'd still say favored for the Arch.



Finally an easy one!

Haban beats Power Herb Arch with Scale > Draco Meteor. Non-Haban's are dropped. Rock Tomb is not saving you here.

252+ Atk Dragon's Maw Regidrago Scale Shot (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 90-108 (28 - 33.6%) -- approx. 0.1% chance to 3HKO

0- SpA Dragon's Maw Regidrago Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 72 SpD Archaludon: 241-285 (75 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- Atk Archaludon Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Regidrago: 61-72 (11.2 - 13.3%) -- possible 8HKO

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Haban Berry Regidrago: 358-423 (66.1 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I believe nearly every other Arch set wins, or with Custap Shenanigans, causes 50/50s into double Endure, because the Drago can sometimes make the conscious choice to not drop the Arch into Custap range with Breaking Swipe or Scale Shot #2

Stamina AV will make Scale and Draco a roll, but a lot of this is EV speculation and I don't like doing it, but overall Arch is favored I'm psure.

A+ Rank

Arch really struggles with Hoopa-U. Drain Punch + AV kinda dummies it.

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 110-130 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 39.1% chance to 3HKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 165-195 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO

-1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 75-88 (20.6 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

0+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 144-170 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO (20% recovered)

Of course with Stamina AV in the picture we get something a bit more interesting. (I'm manually changing the Calc here to 252+ ATK on Hoopa-U)

252+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 168-198 (44 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 112-134 (29.3 - 35.1%) -- 13.2% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. +2 240 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 84-100 (22 - 26.2%) -- 8.6% chance to 4HKO

(91% Chance to 3HKO!), but

+1 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 164-193 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

+2 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 218-257 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hoopa-U gets 2HKO'd before the roll even happens.



I'm sure it's possible to pick up wins (I know I have with Scarf Foul Play), but these are the most solid counters by far. I'm not running calcs.



0- Atk Archaludon Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 94-112 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 213-252 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rock Tomb, can break sub but it doesn't stop SubSeed, because Ogerpon will just SubTect you anyways. Pray for the miss I guess. Meteor Beam on 1 might look good, but Ogerpon can just sub t1 just in case.

Vs Offensive Ogerpon-H (lol)

252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 148-175 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO

It's a roll (Despite mold breaker, with how math works it's better to not SD and just try for the 2HKO), so Electro > Draco is what you need to win.

Overall a bad Arch MU

A Rank

Not as much as guarantee as you'd expect.

252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 386-456 (109.9 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This has to get disabled, and thus

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 312-368 (88.8 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO on the disable turn.

If you don't OHKO, your Rock Tomb can sometimes kill, and a smart Valiant goes for Moonblast to pick up the 2HKO if it doesn't completely foregoing encore.

0 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 169-201 (52.6 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you had electro t1 you get encored and disabled before you fire off a beam, so don't do that!

Custap actually loses here, because you can't endure the second moonblast because if you endure you get encored

Specs loses (This set is so bad guys, why does it have 10% usage), because of Disable.

Stamina AV is a bit interesting, because Moonblast drops to a 4HKO with investment meaning, if you have a good coverage move you can probably win.



Kinda weird. If Stall Pecha is max speed (not like a crazy thing to say), it can use parting shot and recover and stall out Arch and make it die, but if it's slower it gets 2HKO'd, unless it invests and has a healing item then it doesn't

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pecharunt: 230-271 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Neutral Draco Meteor does the same)

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Pecharunt: 177-209 (46.5 - 55%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO

Every other Arch should also lose.



Not so straightforward as you'd might expect (or maybe you do expect it because so many of these are not straightforward)

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Porygon-Z: 260-307 (83.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This doesn't kill, meaning Arch needs to rock tomb first to beat Uproar from Specs

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Uproar vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 215-253 (66.9 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(or ice beam or dark pulse)

But if you do that vs Scarf you still don't necessarily outspeed and Uproar still has a chance of 2HKOing

252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Uproar vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 144-170 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO

And then what about vs Custap? Then you're 50/50 after dark pulse or ice beam t1 doing non boosted damage (they could be scarf still!) and do you predict the Endure > Hyper Beam and Rock Tomb again or do you go for the KO?

And what if they've just Trick their choice item on to you T1?? Now you're locked into Rock Tomb as they do Coverage > Hyper Beam

Custap Arch does a little better as it can just Draco t1 and set read a little bit better Endure appropriately and win. Stamina AV dummies, obviously.



Why must I suffer with intricacies in what should be a simple match-up?

Arch is bulkable for Raging Bolt, and thanks to Thunderclap can have priority to pick up a 2HKO (I just chose 100

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 164 SpD Raging Bolt: 384-452 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

96+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 262-310 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

96+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 108-127 (33.6 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Custap isn't saving you here either, although Stamina AV predictably will.



What set you running bud? Unaware Dirge has a bad time because it's getting hit by Draco's that just won't stop. But most Skeledirge's are Custap, and Skeledirge CAN bulk Meteor Beam, meaning with some investment they can Torch on 1 without fear and Blast Burn on 2 for the 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Meteor Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 330-390 (80.2 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 133-157 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Skeledirge Blast Burn vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 249-294 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(I didn't feel like figuring out the actual benchmarks)

Custap Arch can pick up a win vs uninvested Skeledirge, but Draco Meteor doesn't really have the necessary power to really win vs any amount of investment

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Skeledirge: 262-309 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is out of custap range and can most of the time 2HKO post drop so Skeledirge has to Endure here, but then Arch can endure the following turn and get the win that way.

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Skeledirge: 231-273 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Avoids this issue as draco no longer 2HKOs and Skeledirge can just Torch> Torch no worries.

0+ SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 145-172 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO

+1 0+ SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 219-258 (68.2 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As for Stamina AV, you're still getting got by Torch Song > Blast Burn.



I didn't believe this calc when I saw it, but it's right.

252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 204-242 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sylveon doesn't need to endure t1 meaning it can Hyper Voice > Endure > Custap to win.

84 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archaludon: 193-228 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, Arch's on Custap Set can take care of that issue, although Sylveon can run Quick Attack, although I believe that is rare nowadays.

Stamina AV also loses as Hyper Voice > Endure > Hyper Beam should KO most of the time with investment.

252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 240 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 147-174 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Beam vs. 240 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 246-289 (64.5 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A- Rank

Power Herb Electro shot can be bulked if you really want it to be.

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 330-390 (82.5 - 97.5%)

This means roost turn 1 > Substitute T2 can win because + 1 Flash Cannon can’t break sub, so Arch has to use Draco Meteor and lose a lot of SpA. However please note, that this bulk just avoids the protect 50/50 on t1 as if you predict the charge move with protect you can then freely sub as Corvi

No other Arch set can change this I believe, but I’m not using my full brain for this match-up, because I don’t want to.




Cresselia can CM > Moonlight, unless you run Metal Sound.

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 176-208 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 177-208 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery



Flash cannon has to be disabled after the protect on T1, if you run meteor beam, you can do that T2 for the win, or if not you can Rock Tomb > Electro, but it won’t KO until the third Attack, but you’re outspeeding now. Moonblast doesn’t 2HKO either so this is pretty safely Archaludon’s.

0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archaludon: 121-144 (37.6 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0- Atk Archaludon Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow: 68-82 (19.4 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales-Alola: 206-243 (59 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Custap with Tbolt coverage will struggle and lose, and Stamina AV’s Body Press won’t be able to get there vs Ninetales-A and lose as that gets encore disabled, I’m pretty sure.



Electro Shot doesn’t OHKO and Rock Tomb > Electro won’t matter. Get seeded.

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 213-251 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Draco doesn’t get the 2HKO and ursaluna can Facade > Headlong Rush

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna: 373-441 (80.3 - 95%) -- not a KO

Even Body Press > Boosted Body Press doesn’t get there when Ursaluna uses a normal move first.

0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna: 138-164 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

+1 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna: 208-246 (44.8 - 53%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

Maybe this finally is the match up where specs can shine. Unless Ursaluna runs the necessary speed where it can Rock Tomb / Bulldoze and then Headlong Rush.



Rock tomb or Meteor Beam from a Power herb always wins as it will either OHKO or drop speed and 2HKO. Draco is not enough to OHKO and Overheat will 2HKO. With custap shenanigans, that set might steal a win, but Volcarona has to predict it and Quiver Dance on 1 so Draco doesn’t 3HKO

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 198-234 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor over 3 turns vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 245-290 (78.7 - 93.2%) -- not a KO

B+ Rank

Kinda dependent whether or not there’s investment and whether or not their Annihilape has an AV or has like Drain Punch.

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Annihilape: 175-206 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Annihilape: 262-309 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is one of the rare-ish cases where only Power Herb wins regardless of techs on other sets, Metal Sound Custap doesn’t KO and Stamina AV obviously gets rolled by fighting STAB




AV doesn’t stop Electro Shot.

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 136 HP / 104+ SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 268-316 (71.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this was in the calc, don’t feel like changing it)

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 136 HP / 104+ SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 124-147 (33 - 39.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO

For Custap, Tbolt doesn’t work against AV and Stamina AV will have the same issue. Against non-AV both sets can pick up the 2HKO, but Azumarill just needs some boost for Superpower > Aqua jet to win against Custap not vs Stamina AV

Against a Stall set, Electro Shot OHKOs, and Custap needs Metal Sound.




To avoid the set flip of Haban and Weakness Policy, you can simply use Electro Shot > Flash Cannon or just Meteor Beam if you have it. For Custap, you can either run into the set flip or Metal Sound if you have it.

252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Baxcalibur: 452-534 (104.1 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Baxcalibur: 278-330 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Baxcalibur: 416-492 (95.8 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 186-220 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 63-75 (19.6 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO

As for Stamina AV? Rock Tomb > Draco should take care of it if you pop the Weakness Policy. And if you don’t 2x Body Press should get there, but there’s a roll where Bax can win 30% of the time.

0- Atk Archaludon Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Baxcalibur: 78-94 (17.9 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO

+1 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Baxcalibur: 208-246 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO

+2 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Baxcalibur: 278-328 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 186-220 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 124-147 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. +2 240 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 33-39 (8.6 - 10.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever



Band Mold Breaker CC (has to be Jolly to outspeed) can pick up the win, while EQ has a roll.

252 Atk Choice Band Haxorus Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 342-404 (106.5 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Haxorus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 286-338 (89 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Scarf obviously doesn’t come close, and will drop to a Draco.

Vs Custap though, when Mold Breaker is telegraphed and band is predicted, Arch can endure T1 and then draco, but it’s very messy as Haxorus can be Haban, Scarf, or just not click CC.



Draco doesn’t drop Lando-T here, and therefore you need to Draco Twice and hope they’re not Jolly, as even Rock Tomb only barely makes a roll. Custap fixed this thanks to innate Speed Control, but AV Lando-T will just always body you.
252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-Therian: 247-292 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 0- Atk Archaludon Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 30-36 (9.4 - 11.2%) -- possible 9HKO



Electro shot go brrr. Even post CM or Take Heart if they have it, although you’ll have to likely charge a second Electro Shot to avoid some Rest shenanigans, it’s fine tho. Manaphy could theoretically bulk and speed for it, but that’s a lot of work.

Not going to post calcs because it’s a lot.
For Custap sets, Metal Sound is more important than Thunderbolt to actually drop Manaphy.

I'm stopping now before I get to B+, because my brain hurts and I'm tired of typing this post, and the match-ups are going to become a lot more straightforward and easy.

Edit: I'm slowly going through and will be adding B+ and lower.

Section 5: Final Thoughts

I think Archaludon is very good. It's got a lot of tools that will let it do really well and it benefits a lot from it's strong typing. However, it can still struggle with overall power, and can be benchmarked fairly easily. I still think it's rather versatile and can shift between sets to its advantage, without sacrificing too much in opportunity cost. It's definitely going to remain a significant metagame presence for the rest of the time it's legal in SV 1v1, but do I think it's broken? Probably not.

 

[g0ldenboy277]

Hello guys, i want to give my takes on meta and bans.

We should be less afraid of banning mons, and i will explain the 2 motives for this.

1. We got LOTS of mons to play around.

Its not like if we got rid of lets say, 1 mon per month (+ any mon that would eventually got broken) we would run out of options.

2. Changes are good for the game and for the players.

With more often changes, we will need to adapt more, and this is just equal to more fun. Different mons, different strategies. It would improve players knowledge. Its like patchs on most online games, changes to the meta always make the game better.

My reasoning to post this, is of course, based on Archaludon (but others pokemons too).

Archaludon is the strongest pokemon in the game the last 4 months. He got at least 4 different builds, and ALL of them are like high tier. Some time ago some of us wanted to ban Custap, you guys remember? Everyone in this time, said that this item was the real problem. From there to now, Archaludon doesnt even use Custap anymore (its the less popular build for him this last month).

To me, is that simple: if a pokemon is almost obligatory in a team,and the options to someone to counter him or just substitute him are VERY MUCH weaker, and will turn your team worse by much, this mon should go. Doesnt make much sense to take that time to do this.

Well, thats it, of course my opinion doesnt need to be right, and most can disagree.

Thanks for the time and regards for every 1v1 player out there.

 

[recti]

. We got LOTS of mons to play around.

Its not like if we got rid of lets say, 1 mon per month (+ any mon that would eventually got broken) we would run out of options

The thing is we don't want to ban mons that are completely fine and are checked by a sizable margin of pokemon if we do that the metagame will go out of hand and the power level will be rock bottom, back to study hall gaming now.

 

[fruan]

Pls consider action on oger, fire especially. Beating them reliably is the dumbest thing ever. Subseed and offensive and counter are all literally different pokemon.

Also unironically free species clause. Oras doesn't have it, and its a cool tier. I understand that this is not really a justification, but there is precedent for this, and so far no deleterious effects have been observed. 1v1 is pick one pokemon, its not like OU where x2 of the same pokemon can whittle down their counters. You either win or lose with what you have. Some might say "but I don't want to face x3 ambigous pokemon at preview." My response: if a pokemon is broken if you can bring more of them, then they are broken regardless of this fact. A large part of 1v1 is centered around making good teams, getting good previews, and the lack of species clause is a healthy way a player can express their teambuilding skill and game knowledge.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Pls consider action on oger, fire especially. Beating them reliably is the dumbest thing ever. Subseed and offensive and counter are all literally different pokemon.

Also unironically free species clause. Oras doesn't have it, and its a cool tier. I understand that this is not really a justification, but there is precedent for this, and so far no deleterious effects have been observed. 1v1 is pick one pokemon, its not like OU where x2 of the same pokemon can whittle down their counters. You either win or lose with what you have. Some might say "but I don't want to face x3 ambigous pokemon at preview." My response: if a pokemon is broken if you can bring more of them, then they are broken regardless of this fact. A large part of 1v1 is centered around making good teams, getting good previews, and the lack of species clause is a healthy way a player can express their teambuilding skill and game knowledge.

Actually? Good point. Maybe Species Clause is fine.

On the one hand, more of the same thing is just... oppressive as hell, and the set variety can mean 2 of any mon is, actually, unbeatable.

On the other hand... This makes niche hard counters even better -- which is good long term. It's not totally wrong to have double Archaludon (one for the main, one to beat the main) and still have both lose to that niche Mirror Coat Avalugg.

But even still, this does bolster everyone's capacity to be even more broken. I'm fine dealing with 1 Archaludon, and 1 Firepon, and 1 Iron Valiant, not 2 or 3 of these things. ORAS might have 2 Mega Charizard forms as possibly THE ONLY EXCUSE for having no species clause but even still, Mega Charizard Y is banned in ORAS
I'm not totally sure what to do about Species Clause, but I'd much rather have it to not be in the current age.

 

[Felucia]

"X pokemon is broken if you remove species clause" is not an excuse to keep species clause, changes in the meta will inevitably shift the meta and we shouldn't try to predict the future. In the event that a species clause removal makes a pokemon like archaludon too centralising then that's our cue to ban archaludon at that point. If we want a meta without species clause, we should curate that meta without species clause, rather than judging it by what the immediate post-removal meta would look like.

Edit: I'll post my general thoughts on meta somewhere mid-LT when we've had a bit of time post-arch suspect (regardless of result), but I appreciate that we're getting some discussion going and encourage people to continue sharing and debating their views on the meta

 

[BigChuchu]

I personally don't want 1v1 to become a clown meta where everyone runs 3 identical mons just because they can... I know it doesn't sound like a sensible argument in favour of keeping species clause, but neither do the anti-species clause arguments so far.

In any case, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Marshmelto]

I personally don't want 1v1 to become a clown meta

anyways I don’t entirely see the problem with removing species clause if something’s gonna be overwhelming bc there’s three of them then that should tell you more about the Mon then species clause itself on the other hand I also don’t see a need to remove it and I think we shouldn’t be making these changes just because we can and rather should be doing them out of necessity

 

[Mentality]

BigChu makes a good point about 'clown meta'. Smogon Metagames exist between a scale of "Serious" to "Unserious" that people subconsciously sort various tiers into - which is essentially a scale between OU and AG. Removal of species clause in 1v1 makes it lean more towards the unserious sides, as seeing 3 Regidrago will look more unserious no matter what.

But such a thing can have a positive impact, as the OM crowd that play things like AG, ZU and FFA can feel more inclined to check out 1v1 with loosened restrictions. There is a certain "percieved chaos" factor that can definetly make a metagame more enticing to play. Removal of species clause increases this percieved chaos factor.

 

[Marshmelto]

“clown meta” u got people like 5luke running random shit all the time or just general shitmons usage across people it isnt detrimental to the tier in anyway. Anyways in a tour setting bringing 3 of the same mon is not going to be prevalent, bar random cteam/fish. You’re creating problems that don’t really exist

 

[Mentality]

Hey, just wondering about peoples thoughts on a few mons, please feel free to respond no matter your level of skill or experience.


Oger-H stands out as a problem child in the recent meta. This is due to its insane versatility and tech potential, unrivalled by any other mon. She's hard to account for in the builder and at preview, let alone in game due to different sets having different counter play. Oger-H faces little opportunity cost due to keeping core mus via ivy cudgel and power whip. Oger-H is a lot easier and more realistic to tech and beat than archaludon which balances the mon. I believe ogerpon hearthflame, while teetering on the edge of healthiness is currently allowing for a fresh and creative meta so I personally would like to see it stay around a little longer.


Pecharunt is the epitome of an annoying 1v1 mon. An 100bp stab move and toxic in one moveslot opens pecharunt up to a wide range of options, mainly being different variants of stall with differing levels of reliance on poison puppeteer, however this is where the problems with this mon begin. Poison puppeteer confusion can make this mon very frustrating to play against, oftentimes making matchups unreliable on both sides. The countermeasure to this is really just running better counters as pecharunt isn't overly hard to beat or tech, but will expose any counters not well implemented. To me, pecharunt is more an annoyance than an actual threat, and while it has uncompetitive elements, they can be avoided easily which stops it being unhealthy.


Regidrago fell into a slump during the arch meta, which it seems to have come out of after it's ban. Regidrago feels very strong now, especially with it matching up well against both prominent oger forms and beating common mid-tiers and glue mons. I've tried a few sets and saw most success with haban and bulky choice specs. Drago feels fine for now but I could definitely see this becoming an issue in the near future.

Pecharunt is an interesting mon. While the counters are obvious (steel, taunt, etc.) the mon can be extremely annoying to play against since it can cripple your team if you don't prepare for it. Malignant Chain is a very good move, and Toxic Puppeteer makes it very unfun to play against due to the confusion factor. It was held back in Archaludon meta but I definitely see it making a big resurgence

The frustration with pecharunt comes down to old lady luck. Will malignant chain poison? Will your mon hit itself? It can probably flip some matchups just off confusion chance. The use of parting short makes your attacks do nothing, and it has plenty bulk to go around in both ways. Even breaking it's air balloon gives it a crucial moment to toxic or PS.


At it's best, it's a mon you click Hyperspace Fury on, and at it's worst, it feels like an uncompetitive, unkillable beast.

Steels will inevitably rise as Drago takes back it's old throne, but we also have the strong threats of Hearthflame or Gouging to beat many of them. This gives pecharunt a happy little slot where it can toxic everything else with glee.

 

[Felucia]

3am sleepy felucia ramble post

With Archaludon gone the meta honestly feels like it's freed up a whole lot. I have the benefit of looking at this meta while still learning, and not being bound by preconceived knowledge what is/isn't "good" and from what I'm seeing the lack of ogerpon counterplay might be being overstated somewhat. I would recommend not taking action on it until at the very least the latest stages of LT to give people plenty of time to adapt to their Arch teams not auto-beating oger and properly thinking about counterplay.

Pecharunt and Iron Valiant if you ask me are 2 pokemon that fit in the same category of "toxic, annoying, but not broken" both have viable counters, but just feel really bad to play against for the non-counters. I think if we're going to worry about either being uncompetitive, we need to remember that as RTM said you shouldn't rely on unreliable counters when reliable ones exist, and only have yourself to blame if you don't. As for their fate in the metagame, I honestly couldn't care less whether they're banned or not. If they're banned, that's one annoyance off my annoyance list, otherwise I can just build around it, but I don't think these are justifiable if we're going by the book.

That brings me to Regidrago and Gouging Fire (yes I'm gonna group them together). When we were trying to ban Arch I argued that the abundance of powerful dragon types limits teambuilding to practically require a Fairy or Steel on most teams. There are 2 mons running around right now that are a cut above the rest when it comes to displaying those symptoms. First there's Regidrago, the mon with so much raw power that practically its only counters are Fairy and Steel types. The arguments for not banning it seem to come down to "There are plenty steel and fairy types to make it balanced" but I want to really start talking about the fact that the existence of Drago counters does not mean it's not overcentralising. Drago more than any mon in SV right now warps the metagame into a certain format and forces the presence of both drago counters and drago counters counters, and severely hinders building expression and metagame diversity.

I lied I'm not grouping them together: Gouging Fire is on the other side of the coin, its fire typing enables it to super-effectively hit steel types and not receive super effective damage from fairy types. In a metagame dominated by dragon types, this puts gouging at an advantage in how it fits into the centralised Regidrago meta. I can't guarantee it'll be banworthy if Drago is removed, but as of now it's contributing to the propagation of a centralised metagame and team archetype that is difficult for me to get on board with.

 

[Murm]

I've talked about Regidrago before, many others have talked about Drago, but this stupid orb thing needs to go. Now there are three main things a Pokemon or anything else can be to be considered banworthy. I'll cover them here.

Is Regidrago Uncompetitive: No

Starting out with the easiest one, besides some matchups coming down to Scale Shot hits, Regidrago isn't uncompetitive. Not much else to say about this point.

Is Regidrago Unhealthy: Yes

Now you can debate this but Regidrago's strain on the metagame is something that has been talked about so much. As you know, the only answers to Regidrago are Fairies, a few steels (Iron Crown, Metagross, Registeel, Corv for the most part), and a couple misc. mons like Unnerve Haxorus, Lando-T with a very specific set, and Ursaluna with a very specific set. So basically it forces a Dragon Fairy Steel metagame, and while these types would still be strong without Drago, it is extremely difficult to build teams without them due to it. This also contributes to Pokemon like Hearthflame and Gouging's success (not that they'd be bad without Drago), since they naturally thrive when you're forced to have a Steel or Fairy on 95% of teams.

Is Regidrago Broken: Arguably Yes

Now this ultimately depends on your definition of broken. I believe it is broken since it just beats too much, but many consider it not broken since Fairies shut it down so hard. I will say we've had Pokemon that were deemed broken despite hard losing to a type (Genesect comes to mind), and the fact that the vast majority of non fairy answers have to run very specific sets to be reliable really shows the hold Drago has on the metagame.


I hope we get a Regidrago suspect, as was previously promised, since the community has shown that it is wanted. Thank you.

Murm out

 

[Blanched]

Gonna drop my thoughts as someone who learned the meta while laddering for lt since it's survey season


This guy is really good, shocker. The generational shift lost us the tapus, kiss, aroma, ferro, cele, and aggron in exchange for val, crown, and enam, which has made building feel a little more restricting. Lando-t, ursaluna, and other non-fairy/steel checks are usually serviceable but drago has ways to get around them and I've found them really hard to rely on. A bunch of new targets on top of the limited counterplay make sets like specs and scarf feel really good in a way that they don't in ss, though personally my favorite set is super bulky haban dd. Drago is probably my top pick for a potential suspect, and like murm said we were promised one.


Meh. Very versatile obviously but from anecdotal experience it felt like its usage in lt dropped off a cliff after the first cycle. It's unpredictability is easily its most valuable trait but in a ladder environment it doesn't really get to shine as much. I feel like the matchup variation between sets is very large and caused me to lose a lot of matches I felt like I shouldn't have, but I'll wait until playoffs to give a more developed opinion because I'm sure it'll be better there. Additionally, I think should be in the same tier as it. It trades metagross and goodra-h for reliable prim and lando matchups, and is much better into gouging without having to run rock tomb. Encore lets it keep winning mus into fatter steel types because of ivy cudgel's crit rate too. It doesn't seem so much worse than hearthflame that it deserves to be a tier lower, but I'd really be more in favor of dropping hearth to A+ over raising wellspring to S.


Don't agree with S tier gouging, I was surprised it was even on the survey. It has good stats and typing but nothing overwhelming, it can be surprisingly bulky but there's an obvious cost in power, and it doesn't have any really ridiculous tools. It feels like it lacks the ability to tech that made previous top mons like kiss and zardx earn their spot. It's a very honest mon and I don't see anything pushing it to be problematic.


Super cracked, insanely strong and insanely bulky. One of the more consistent non-fairy/steel drago answers but can still get owned. Surprising set versatility on top of sheer stats lets it cover huge swathes of the meta which makes it very nice to build with. It's really the strong, bulky mon holding the tier together that gouging fire wishes it was.


Current 1v1 discourse mon, genuinely do not see the problem with this guy. I think pecharunt is a very good mon but it's held back from being broken by its movepool of 4. It's really one of the most straightforward mons in the tier, and to echo rtm, it only feels bad to play against when you don't bring good counters, and pecharunt's extreme linearity makes it very easy to find good counters. Most things with taunt, most steels, poisons, psychics, grounds, ghosts, and darks, anything with rest and most things with encore or trick will pretty easily beat pecha. I don't see the issue with malignant chain either, in an overwhelming majority of cases it will only speed up a winning mu with a poison or at best allow pecha to skip having to win a 50/50. There is only a 16% chance pecharunt will steal your turn from you by clicking malignant chain, which is about a quarter as effective as togekiss, a mon with less consistent counterplay than pecha due to it actually having a movepool. I think the argument of "run better counters" is fine here, because they are both abundant and very good, it's not like we're digging into zu-level mons because soundproof bastiodon is the only thing that wins.

Finally, just wanna drop a list of mons that I had a lot of success with laddering that aren't reflected well (imo) on the vr.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Should all go up a half tier or more

I think sv is in a really fun spot post-arch, and I'm genuinely enjoying it more than I thought I would. I think drago is annoying yeah, but I've never liked having to play a game where it's present so it's nothing new. I'm excited to try new stuff in lt playoffs. -Blanched out

 

[AfricanBababot]

Does anyone have teams ?

 

[BigChuchu]

Does anyone have teams ?

here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-sample-teams-read-the-op-submissions-open.3713073/

 

[teg sheep]

I think we should remove species clause
It's 1v1, we make our own rules #community

mono ogerpon isn't viable

Felucia don't even care, why is it here, cause it's in the other metagames
WE ARE NO OTHER METAGAMES
#community #1v1 #change #goodbyespeciesclause

 

[Felucia]

It's been a minute since the drago suspect so let's get some structured discussion happening again

is a funny girl, I am hearing sounds that it's incredibly versatile and can tech whatever it wants, having very few true true counters. In order for me to be on board with this reasoning I'd need more information, because from my own (anecdotal) experience I find each set has considerable opportunity cost. I don't think it measures up to Archaludon or (ORAS) Mega Salamence, which were both banned for flexibility. From my experience so far, it moreso looks to be at the level of SM ZardX, where true counters exist enough to be playable, while teching to beat the checks has considerable opportunity cost in having to deviate from the 1 or 2 sets that perform the best. All in all, I'm hoping to see some structured posts on ogerpon following this post to convince me that tiering action is necessary, because at the moment the "ban ogerpon" movement is making a really fragile case that I honestly don't think the council can act on in good faith.
I also heard a lot of people being frustrated that their Hearth answer loses to Wellspring, they're 2 different mons so of course they have different counters, this should not surprise you.

My opinion on pecha remains unchanged, the meta seems stabilised around it and although it's really good I don't believe it's anywhere near broken, I don't think its uncompetitive nature is severe enough to warrant tiering action, and its limited movepool doesn't make it particularly oppressive on preview either.

species clause I guess was brought up moments ago so let's talk about it: I believe 1v1, pretty uniquely, is a meta where the removal of species clause would not do considerable harm to the metagame. One of the reasons for this is that we take flexibility into account to begin with when tiering, because setguessing wrong is disproportionately harmful to winning, so anything that would become a serious problem in a no species clause meta is already conventionally really strong in 1v1 or even banned. It's also not like you significantly improve your team by running 2 of the same broken mon like you would in 6v6 metagames, because a large part of what makes mons strong in those metagames is their ability to switch in to meta threats, which in 1v1 isn't exactly much of a problem. With that in mind, I said it before and will say it again: I don't particularly care what happens with regards to species clause. Maybe it'd shake up the meta, maybe it'd require further tiering action to get the meta in line, either way I think we'd end up with a fun and competitive 1v1 so it's all the same to me. In short I don't think removing species clause would harm 1v1 at all.

 

[Frailty]

It's been a minute since the drago suspect so let's get some structured discussion happening again

is a funny girl, I am hearing sounds that it's incredibly versatile and can tech whatever it wants, having very few true true counters. In order for me to be on board with this reasoning I'd need more information, because from my own (anecdotal) experience I find each set has considerable opportunity cost. I don't think it measures up to Archaludon or (ORAS) Mega Salamence, which were both banned for flexibility. From my experience so far, it moreso looks to be at the level of SM ZardX, where true counters exist enough to be playable, while teching to beat the checks has considerable opportunity cost in having to deviate from the 1 or 2 sets that perform the best. All in all, I'm hoping to see some structured posts on ogerpon following this post to convince me that tiering action is necessary.

Before I start, I'm only going to take the oger-h sets from the comp. I'll be considering slashes depending on how prominent they are. These sets are listed below.

oger-h sets

Max (Ogerpon-Hearthflame) (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Whip / Wood Hammer
- Ivy Cudgel
- Encore / Play Rough / Knock Off / Superpower / Rock Tomb / Swords Dance / U-turn
- Spiky Shield / Play Rough / Knock Off / Superpower / Rock Tomb / Swords Dance / U-turn

SubSeed (Ogerpon-Hearthflame) (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Spiky Shield
- Ivy Cudgel / Power Whip

Counter (Ogerpon-Hearthflame) (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 244 HP / 248 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Counter
- Power Whip
- Ivy Cudgel
- Encore / Taunt / Play Rough

SpD (Ogerpon-Hearthflame) (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 16 HP / 216 Atk / 204 SpD / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Whip
- Ivy Cudgel
- Rock Tomb
- Encore

Anti-PZ (Ogerpon-Hearthflame) (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 48 HP / 8 Atk / 248 SpD / 204 Spe
Careful Nature
- Power Whip
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Superpower / Encore

Anti-Ursaluna (Ogerpon-Hearthflame) (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 104 HP / 112 Atk / 220 Def / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off
- Spiky Shield / Encore

+

What it beats with these

Oger H (set dependent)
Gouging (Taunt /encore counter, rock tomb encore stuff)
Hoopa
Iron Crown
Oger W (set dependent)
Primarina
Iron Valiant
Metagross
Raging bolt (subseed, some PR)
Corviknight
Cresselia
Haxorus (counter / PR 50/50, RNG dependant for some other sets)
Landot (counter)
Meowscarada
Ninetales-A
Porygon-z (anti pz)
Serperior
Sylveon
Ursaluna (anti luna)
Volcarona
Azu (Taunt counter should even beat stall)
Donphan
Tusk
Iron Hands
Manaphy
Spectrier
Urshifu (encore counter, PR)
Urshifu-rs
Volcanion
Annihilape (encore /taunt counter, subseed bs)
Chien pao
Darkrai
Dragapult
Espathra
Goodra-Hisui
Kyurem
Registeel
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
Whimsicott
Baxcalibur (rock tomb stuff, counter bs)
Belliboltt
Okidogi (encore / counter interactions)
Rhyperior
Rillaboom
Avalugg-Hisui
Diancie (anti oger can lose to taunt counter outplays)
Greninja
Clodsire
Dondozo
Entei
Glastrier
Heatran
Iron Bundle
Muk-Alola
Ninetales
Roaring moon (PR, encore / counter stuff)
Suicune
Ting Lu
Tyranitar
Venusaur
Ceruledge
Enamorus
Grafaiai
Latias (subseed)
Magnezone
Sableye
Scizor
Tinkaton
Avalugg
Blastoise
Carbink
Chansey
Gardevoir
Kingambit
Kommo-o (PR)
Latios (subseed/Knock)
Maushold
Porygon2
Sandy Shocks
Slaking
Slither Wing
Swampert
Thund-t
Umbreon
Wo Chien

First of all, I strongly disagree with the notion that different sets have considerable opportunity cost. Just going through what it beats on VR, It beats 85/101 of all mons through all its sets. Regidrago is another mon known for how much it beats, beating 76 mons with all of its comp sets. Let me break down how insane only losing to 16 pokemon is. The number 16 includes things such as who are required to hit hurricane (even vs subs), low tiers whose main/only viability comes from beating it as well as some gunk shot goobers who can just lose if they miss 20% of the time.

All oger-h really needs is power whip and ivy cudgel. I counted and no matter which of the 5 non leech sets, with only power whip and ivy cudgel, you should beat around 42 of these pokemon, about 41.5% of the metagame. I did this where all sets had to beat it, making them core mus, Eg. chien pao isn't counted because it ohkos some sets. I wouldn't call having 2 moveslots remaining and customisable EVs, while still beating 41.5% of the metagame significant opportunity cost. So it doesn't really matter what direction you go with the rest of the set.

Another aspect to oger-h which makes it frustrating to counter, is how hard it is to tech vs how easy it is for it to tech things. To tech it, you need to beat a subseeder, a counter mon, a spdef mon with knock and a rock tomb encore mon. It's basically impossible to tech this mon without selling your soul to do so.

Anyway, I would like to see a suspect on it, which I'd further form my opinion during, however for now I'm leaning pretty comfortably towards banning it.

 

[Mishlef]

Before I start, I'm only going to take the oger-h sets from the comp. I'll be considering slashes depending on how prominent they are. These sets are listed below.

oger-h sets

Max (Ogerpon-Hearthflame) (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Whip / Wood Hammer
- Ivy Cudgel
- Encore / Play Rough / Knock Off / Superpower / Rock Tomb / Swords Dance / U-turn
- Spiky Shield / Play Rough / Knock Off / Superpower / Rock Tomb / Swords Dance / U-turn

SubSeed (Ogerpon-Hearthflame) (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Spiky Shield
- Ivy Cudgel / Power Whip

Counter (Ogerpon-Hearthflame) (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 244 HP / 248 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Counter
- Power Whip
- Ivy Cudgel
- Encore / Taunt / Play Rough

SpD (Ogerpon-Hearthflame) (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 16 HP / 216 Atk / 204 SpD / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Whip
- Ivy Cudgel
- Rock Tomb
- Encore

Anti-PZ (Ogerpon-Hearthflame) (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 48 HP / 8 Atk / 248 SpD / 204 Spe
Careful Nature
- Power Whip
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Superpower / Encore

Anti-Ursaluna (Ogerpon-Hearthflame) (F) @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 104 HP / 112 Atk / 220 Def / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off
- Spiky Shield / Encore

+

What it beats with these

Oger H (set dependent)
Gouging (Taunt /encore counter, rock tomb encore stuff)
Hoopa
Iron Crown
Oger W (set dependent)
Primarina
Iron Valiant
Metagross
Raging bolt (subseed, some PR)
Corviknight
Cresselia
Haxorus (counter / PR 50/50, RNG dependant for some other sets)
Landot (counter)
Meowscarada
Ninetales-A
Porygon-z (anti pz)
Serperior
Skeledirge
Sylveon
Ursaluna (anti luna)
Volcarona
Azu (Taunt counter should even beat stall)
Donphan
Tusk
Iron Hands
Manaphy
Spectrier
Urshifu (encore counter, PR)
Urshifu-rs
Volcanion
Annihilape (encore /taunt counter, subseed bs)
Chien pao
Darkrai
Dragapult
Espathra
Goodra-Hisui
Kyurem
Registeel
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
Whimsicott
Baxcalibur (rock tomb stuff, counter bs)
Belliboltt
Okidogi (encore / counter interactions)
Rhyperior
Rillaboom
Avalugg-Hisui
Diancie (anti oger can lose to taunt counter outplays)
Greninja
Clodsire
Dondozo
Entei
Glastrier
Heatran
Iron Bundle
Muk-Alola
Ninetales
Roaring moon (PR, encore / counter stuff)
Suicune
Ting Lu
Tyranitar
Venusaur
Ceruledge
Enamorus
Grafaiai
Latias (subseed)
Magnezone
Sableye
Scizor
Tinkaton
Avalugg
Blastoise
Carbink
Chansey
Gardevoir
Kingambit
Kommo-o (PR)
Latios (subseed/Knock)
Maushold
Porygon2
Sandy Shocks
Slaking
Slither Wing
Swampert
Thund-t
Umbreon
Wo Chien

First of all, I strongly disagree with the notion that different sets have considerable opportunity cost. Just going through what it beats on VR, It beats 85/101 of all mons through all its sets. Regidrago is another mon known for how much it beats, beating 76 mons with all of its comp sets. Let me break down how insane only losing to 16 pokemon is. The number 16 includes things such as who are required to hit hurricane (even vs subs), low tiers whose main/only viability comes from beating it as well as some gunk shot goobers who can just lose if they miss 20% of the time.

All oger-h really needs is power whip and ivy cudgel. I counted and no matter which of the 5 non leech sets, with only power whip and ivy cudgel, you should beat around 42 of these pokemon, about 41.5% of the metagame. I did this where all sets had to beat it, making them core mus, Eg. chien pao isn't counted because it ohkos some sets. I wouldn't call having 2 moveslots remaining and customisable EVs, while still beating 41.5% of the metagame significant opportunity cost. So it doesn't really matter what direction you go with the rest of the set.

Another aspect to oger-h which makes it frustrating to counter, is how hard it is to tech vs how easy it is for it to tech things. To tech it, you need to beat a subseeder, a counter mon, a spdef mon with knock and a rock tomb encore mon. It's basically impossible to tech this mon without selling your soul to do so.

Anyway, I would like to see a suspect on it, which I'd further form my opinion during, however for now I'm leaning pretty comfortably towards banning it.

I agree with this post and I also want to add that set comp isn’t even necessarily a fair representation of everything ogerpon can reasonably do as I’ve seen/heard of knock play rough sets as well as trailblaze limiting the ability to beat ogepon. Plus while ogerpon-W and ogerpon-H are different mons a lot of matchups do overlap and even though you’re more likely to see charm Ogerpon-W there’s nothing fundamentally stopping Ogerpon-H from running sets like those as well. So finally I add one more final addendum:

if water can do this so can fire

 

[BigChuchu]

To tech it, you need to beat a subseeder, a counter mon, a spdef mon with knock and a rock tomb encore mon. It's basically impossible to tech this mon without selling your soul to do so.

Can I interest you in some sound or multihit moves?

It beats 85/101 of all mons through all its sets.

Yeah but you can only play one set at a time, so this doesn't mean anything.
That girl is fine, very healthy. Yes she has a godlike movepool but you know there'll always be Ivy Cudgel + Power Whip + Spiky Shield. The coverage move will be un-STAB so won't hit you very hard. And you know she'll always be physical, and you also know what item she'll have.
Also I don't think Ogerpon is better than when she was last suspected and already judged DNB. (wdym that suspect was dodgy? what about Drago's? should we also resuspect it?)


My opinion on Pecha remains unchanged. Its limited movepool is not an issue because it has access to the best moves already: Malignant Chain/Curse/Parting Shot/Recover. Of course it has counters, all mons do, and even though it is highly predictable, I find it much harder than Ogerpon to deal with.

Species Clause: I used to be opposed to it by principle, but if a majority of people wants it back and it increases ladder activity, why not?

 

[RADU]

That girl is fine, very healthy. Yes she has a godlike movepool but you know there'll always be Ivy Cudgel + Power Whip + Spiky Shield. The coverage move will be un-STAB so won't hit you very hard. And you know she'll always be physical, and you also know what item she'll have.

Kyogre-Primal is fine, very healthy. Yes it has a godlike movepool but you know there'll always be Origin Pulse + Thunder + Calm Mind. The coverage move will be un-STAB so won't hit you very hard. And you know it'll always be special, and you also know what item it'll have.

The point I'm trying to raise is that vague-ish statements on any Pokemon are inconclusive and will not change anyone's mind on them being broken or not broken. During metagame discussion of a potentially banworthy mon what you need is concrete data and what the Pokemon is capable of doing and what kinds of restraints it puts on the metagame and the builder; to this effect, RTM's post is really nice.

No, you cannot run every set at once, but in reality every good builder and player will try to reduce setguessing to an absolute minimum and run mons that beat all sets together, or at least a vast majority. This becomes a great burden on building where you are reduced to running the same subset of Pokemon, many of which are either very hard to build with/hardly viable or RNG dependent with moves like Hurricane and Gunk Shot. The alternative is bringing two half-counters each game (which also restricts you to cores of 2 pokemon that beat opposing halves of ogerpon sets) and then also setguessing at preview, which is even worse.
And anyway, the coverage is non STAB and won't hit hard, but it will still beat pokemon, there's a reason it's being ran, so it removes all reliability from potential matchups. The fact that it runs two stabs and it's already super viable, so it can run 9+ possible moves in the last 2 slots to win at least one different matchup, means that you're "hoping it's not U-turn" every game you're running a Hoopa-Unbound.

I haven't played or built enough SV to bring forward a strong opinion, but my impression is that Ogerpon-Hearthflame should be banned.

On Species Clause: It will never be removed because the council certainly cares about adhering to official format rulesets, and because it is hard to bring forward an argument for what it brings to the tier. Certainly removing it would never be harmful at all, and I think it could be beneficial in the sense that it gives a second layer of versatility to building, and if ever 2x of the same Pokemon becomes a broken team in the metagame then it's abundantly clear that said Pokemon is gonna be banworthy. I wish we could remove Species Clause, but I don't see it realistically happening.

Mubs out